View Full Version : "Why I Shoot an M&P"
Hilton Yam via 10-8...
"Glock vs. M&P...or why I shoot an M&P"
Readers of this blog and the 10-8 Performance Facebook page are no strangers to my affection for the M&P. I was one of the earliest adopters of the platform, and was hooked ever since I fired one of the prototypes in the basement of the S&W factory back in 2005 or so. I have also been shooting Glocks since the 90's, and have a number of them in the pile as well, so I can speak with experience on both. With so many compelling empirical arguments in favor of the Glock 17, why am I shooting a M&P 9mm?
For purposes of discussion below, I will be comparing the Glock 17 vs. the M&P 9mm full sized model. If we were comparing the Glock 21 to the M&P 45, then let's just stop here and declare the M&P .45 the winner and move on. Superior ergonomics by far, good accuracy, and availability of thumb safety to help transition 1911 shooters make the M&P 45 the clear winner in my opinion. Add a viable and reliable factory 14 round magazine, and you pretty much have the whole package wrapped up with a bow. Same with .40 - the M&P was designed for the .40, with steel chassis for increased rigidity and none of the durability or function issues of the Glock 22. Oddly, the 9mm was shoehorned into the M&P platform rather than the reverse which is true for Glock, and it is therefore the weakest model of the M&P. So why do I shoot one all the time?
Cont:
http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2012/04/glock-vs-m-why-i-shoot-m.html?showComment=1334934458641#c3121809869336279096
F-Trooper05
04-20-12, 14:39
All fair points. For me the big hit against the M&P (and one that i rarely see mentioned) is how easily they auto-forward during reloads. I know a lot of guys can work around it, but it would still drive me nuts.
I can't shoot worth a damn at 25+ yards and I gave up complaining about triggers in favor of learning to master trigger manipulation so the common gripes are moot to me. But I'm with Hilton, the M&P series has the potential to bigger problem for Glock than it is now but it needs some refinement in the accuracy and trigger departments to qwell the whining.
All fair points. For me the big hit against the M&P (and one that i rarely see mentioned) is how easily they auto-forward during reloads. I know a lot of guys can work around it, but it would still drive me nuts.
Glock's are the king of the auto forward.
Bigkrackers
04-20-12, 16:09
I just got back from the range trying out the G19 gen3 .vs M&P 9. After one magazine through the M&P I was a bit confused as to why my group was so far right until I looked at the front site - it was slowly sliding out of the dove tail. I got a replacement with a straight front site and continued my evaluation.
The trigger on the Glock is lightyears better than the one on the M&P. It's all in the reset. The Glock has nice felt and audible reset. The M&P has no noticeable sound to the reset and there is two felt bumps before the actual reset; the first bump is bigger and then a very tiny one for the reset. It simply sucks.
I liked the grip (not sure which backstrap was on it) and overall feel of the M&P over the Glock.
There was no difference for me which sight picture was better, I was able to use both well.
I shot the Glock better than the M&P by a small margin and I have no doubt that either gun would serve me well in the accuracy department.
If the M&P didn't have such an F'd up trigger I would not hesitate to buy one over a Glock because the ergonomics are fantastic and I can shoot it. However, I would need an Apex trigger right off the bat. That said, everyone says you need to change out the plastic sights on the Glock so, price wise for upgrades, it's a wash.
The front sight drifting of the M&P is bothersome to me as I have read about this compliant before - people losing their front sights. Thought this was just a Trijicon thing as some of their vials have been falling out on some M&P's but in this case the stock sight was almost off.
As I'm in the market for a new 9mm I have narrowed it down to these two guns and right now I give a slight edge to the Glock as I have not shot a M&P with a trigger job.
cheapsandwich
04-20-12, 17:14
It's nice that we have choices between for great pistol platforms.
Glock's are the king of the auto forward.
??? I've only had it a happen rarely across 20 Glocks but most of the time with the Pro 9 I owned for a spell (2400 rounds). I didn't know it was commonplace in Glocks.
If my Pro 9 had delivered 25 yd groups like Hilton's (instead of 5+") and didn't have failures to reset, I'd still be rocking it now. I'd live with the autoforwards. Even w/o them, it was a blindingly fast gun to reload.
His article is a good read.
Dos Cylindros
04-20-12, 17:32
I have been a full time LEO for 13 years now, and 12 of those years have seen me carry the G22 as my primary handgun. I recently moved to a new department that issues the M&P 40, and for me all of the issues I had with the G22 are solved with the M&P 40. I'm not saying I had problems with the G22, but it never quite fit my hands right. When I started using the M&P 40 I was totally converted. The M&P fits my hand like it was custom made for me, I find the M&P more controllable to shoot as for me it has less muzzle flip and feels like it has less recoil. My issue M&P has about 1500 rounds through it now and it has never malfunctioned. My G22 had a few malfuctions, but in all honestly that was in what I would guess to be at least 10,000 rounds over the course of 12 years.
The Glock is an excellent platform, it's just that I have found the M&P to be far superior for me. Your experience may be different, that's why we have choices. As far as the 9mm copies of the M&P, I have no experience with them but I know Hilton knows what he is talking about so I will trust his judgement. I love my M&P so much, I went out and got a full size M&P 45 to make my HD gun.
I didn't know it was commonplace in Glocks.
I don't think "commonplace" would be correct term, but Glock's well known for their tendency for auto forward.
However, I don't know of any objective data/test on it either comparing the tendency of one platform vs another to auto forward, in this case Glock vs. M&P
Littlelebowski
04-20-12, 18:52
Glock's are the king of the auto forward.
It's my experience that M&Ps auto forward more frequently and with greater ease than Glocks. I've seen this born out in both my personal and other shooter's M&Ps.
It's my experience that M&Ps auto forward more frequently and with greater ease than Glocks. I've seen this born out in both my personal and other shooter's M&Ps.
Been the exact reverse for me, but your sample sizes may be larger than mine. :cool:
What does auto forward mean?
High Altitude
04-20-12, 19:43
Glock mags are nearly indestructible, but also nearly impossible to disassemble with the stock pads
If you know how to do it, getting the base plates off is easy.
Anyone who thinks getting the base plates off is "nearly impossible" is lacking in glock knowledge.
High Altitude
04-20-12, 19:44
What does auto forward mean?
When you insert a magazine with the slide locked back, the slide automatically goes forward once the magazine is inserted.
It's my experience that M&Ps auto forward more frequently and with greater ease than Glocks. I've seen this born out in both my personal and other shooter's M&Ps.
Been the exact reverse for me, but your sample sizes may be larger than mine. :cool:
Although it can be fast, I'm not a fan of the M&P's auto forwarding. In contrast, I've been shooting Glocks of various models for years, and I rarely have their slides auto forward. I've warmed up to and really like my M&P's, but they auto forward almost every time.
When you insert a magazine with the slide locked back, the slide automatically goes forward once the magazine is inserted.
Thanks!
Huh... Four Glocks and never had one auto-forward in 6 years. My USP 9 though... Does it almost every time.
The article is a great read. My long term list has a 9mm on it. It will either be a G17L, G34, or M&P 9 Pro. Interesting about having to use 147gr in his article. My personal 9mm's are stuffed full of 115gr DPX. May have to revisit that I suppose.
hotrodder636
04-20-12, 20:18
After learning about and reading about the M&P I went the the LGS to check them out. I own a Glock 19, and I find it fits mind hand very well. I can barely stand the feel of the M&P in my hands. I have no trigger time behind one, nut the fit/feel alone has prevented me from even trying one. This is coming from a guy who several years ago only owned 4 1911s.
I shoot Glocks, Gen 3 19's and a 26. When I chose my first 19, I wanted a gun that I didn't have to immediately upgrade with the Apex Sear to make it run well, and the higher price of the M&P magazines.
With all of the problems that Glock is experiencing now, if I had to do it all over I'd probably go for the M&P. After 8-10,000 rounds through each pistol, I'm starting to have some of those problems arise in my pistols (brass thrown in the face, occasional stovepipe and even one 180 degree brass in the slide:rolleyes:) Some of this may be related to weakening mag springs that I'll be replacing soon. Apex is apparently working on an improved extractor for the Glock that I also plan on trying whenever they come out. Right now, I can't imagine the cost of switching to a whole new platform with mags, holsters, and sights, on top of the pistols themselves. With that in mind, I'm still a Glock guy :smile: I hadn't had any problems with them until recently, and they are still very infrequent. I guess I got a little spoiled when the first several thousand rounds were uneventful. Luckily, we have two pretty great platforms to chose from and there are companies working night and day to improve upon the near perfection that those two platforms possess.
Ive had most of the major brands and the only pistol that auto forwarded for me was the HK P30. My M&P9 never did and my Glocks never did. I no longer have the M&P and have settled on Glocks. If i start to experience chronic issues with my Glock's, i will switch to M&P. There is much i like about the M&P.
The hardware does not make the shooter.
M&P, Glock, who cares.
Pick either and roll with it.
Mr Yam's article is excellent and it makes a compelling argument as to WHY the M&P is a contender.
Glock's are the king of the auto forward.
FWIW - one of the main reasons I dropped (sold) the M&P was the nearly constant auto-forward. Neither of my current 17s (nor my old 21) ever did it. Go figure!
john (lifelong 1911 guy who switched to Glock a year or so back)
FWIW - one of the main reasons I dropped (sold) the M&P was the nearly constant auto-forward.
Is auto-forwarding really such a bad thing? Seems like it could save time in a fight.
F-Trooper05
04-20-12, 23:45
Seems like it could save time in a fight.
Assuming it works 100% of the time, which it doesn't.
Gary1911A1
04-21-12, 02:10
I really like my M&P45, but didn't like my M&P9 at all as the trigger was bad and it wouldn't group even from the bench, but that was before Apex Parts and I never tried 147gr. ammo in it like Hilton did. If I saw one at a good price I might give a M&P9 another chance.
It's nice that we have choices between for great pistol platforms.
no shit. I don't know why more people don't just shoot them both and pick the one they like the best.
IME most selections are made based on emotion and psychology than the cold hard facts everyone wants to pretend are their drivers anyway.
Glock's are the king of the auto forward.
That might be your experience but not mine. All guns will do it but plastic guns more so than metal framed guns. Ken Hackathorn demostrates this in his classes. My M&Ps did it all the time and I had to be careful but my Glocks will only do it if I make them do it.
That might be your experience but not mine. All guns will do it but plastic guns more so than metal framed guns. Ken Hackathorn demostrates this in his classes. My M&Ps did it all the time and I had to be careful but my Glocks will only do it if I make them do it.
Might be an interesting topic to pose to Yam considering the differing of experiences there. I don't claim expertise on the topic and my data sets (experience) likely far less then yours. I'm now curious as to how common it is. I bet Doc Roberts would have some useful input on the topic.
Odd that this is boiling down to something as inane as auto-forward...
However, you need to understand what auto-forwarding is and why it happens. If not, debating it is probably pointless.
and IMO the person that probably has the best data set on what happens more with what gun is probably an IDPA SO that works every match as they'll have seen a lot of examples of both guns in a slide-lock situation.
arcticlightfighter
04-21-12, 09:23
The hardware does not make the shooter.
M&P, Glock, who cares.
Pick either and roll with it.
Mr Yam's article is excellent and it makes a compelling argument as to WHY the M&P is a contender.
I agree with this sentiment. Too much emphasis is often placed on the equipment, not the person.
The level of reliability of the Glock, MnP, SIG, HK, or even Beretta is all fairly consistent and there are abhorrent examples of malfunction or inaccuracy for each that can be found. The argument comes down to personal preference.
I currently am an M&P shooter for the last 2 years although ten years before that I carried Glocks of all calibers.
I am beyond the point where I rely heavily on the tactile reset of the trigger so I havent had an issue with the M&P. I also havent had a single FTF/FTE in any of my M&P's (3 9mm's and 2 .45's) in thousands of rounds. Cant say that with my Glocks. Multiple issues with FTF/FTE with a Glock 19, Glock 22.
Might be an interesting topic to pose to Yam considering the differing of experiences there. I don't claim expertise on the topic and my data sets (experience) likely far less then yours. I'm now curious as to how common it is. I bet Doc Roberts would have some useful input on the topic.
I don't know much about Hilton Yam but there is no argument about Ken's experience and credentials. He demostrates this in his classes and it's obvious it has nothing to do with the brand of gun.
Odd that this is boiling down to something as inane as auto-forward...
However, you need to understand what auto-forwarding is and why it happens. If not, debating it is probably pointless.
and IMO the person that probably has the best data set on what happens more with what gun is probably an IDPA SO that works every match as they'll have seen a lot of examples of both guns in a slide-lock situation.
Well, that's where a fair amount of my experience on it comes from. Not an SO, but spent a fair amount of time at IDPA, and see lots of Glocks doing it (so much so some of the shooters rely on it) and very few M&Ps do it.
Being in MA, we see a lot of M&Ps. I also spent time at S&W personally and saw a shit load of ammo go through M&Ps and can't recall an auto forward that I witnessed.
But as you say, side tracked to the topic of the thread.
I don't know much about Hilton Yam but there is no argument about Ken's experience and credentials. He demostrates this in his classes and it's obvious it has nothing to do with the brand of gun.
No doubt, all auto pistols can do it. I think the discussion is strictly on how often one platform tends to do it vs another.
If only my M&P was as accurate as my glock or my glock was as reliable as my M&P...
It's my experience that M&Ps auto forward more frequently and with greater ease than Glocks. I've seen this born out in both my personal and other shooter's M&Ps.
Absolutely!
My issued G23 auto-forwarded once, in the first 3 mags and hasn't done it since. I have seen no others do it and I shoot with a group that has 2300 Glocks in service. Doesn't seem to be an issue at all. With stock Glocks-maybe tricked out ones, that may be a different story.
How many people talking about auto-forwarding understand what causes it?
From the way it's being discussed, I'd say not many. As mentioned above, Hack does a pretty good demo of it, and explains why it happens and what causes it. While some guns may be more prone to it, you're the one causing it.
Ambi slide lock, and mag release sealed the deal foe this lefty.
Bigkrackers
04-21-12, 22:15
I took a M&P45 out today and every seating of a magazine would cause the slide to auto forward. The slide would also auto forward if the gun was tapped on its left side or set down on the bench on its left side. I did not have this happen with the M&P 9. Not sure if this is a real issue or not but it didn't make a difference to me one way or the other.
I was not as accurate with the .45 as I was with the 9mm but I decided to not pay attention to the trigger this time and simply concentrated on putting the front sights on the target. When I did this the trigger became less of an issue.
I tend to get pretty worked up when training or competing and I've seen myself get pretty enthusiastic seating a mag.
All of my autos; auto slide forward on occasion.
The first time I had it happen with a 1911 was during a USPSA match. I thought: "Wow! I didn't know this gun could do that.. BONUS!" kept on rockin'.:D
m1a_scoutguy
04-21-12, 23:25
When you insert a magazine with the slide locked back, the slide automatically goes forward once the magazine is inserted.
Hmmm,,thats what I thought,,but was about to ask the same question !!! :confused: I notice it with my 17 if I insert the mag from the back edge,(Hard),it will auto forward,,if I hit it "Flat" not as much,,or hardly at all !! For me I find it more of the correct angle will induce it more than anything else !! My 1911s will do it on occasion also !! Like the saying goes,,tap,rack,(auto forward) bang,,its all good if you want it and expect it to happen !!
How many people talking about auto-forwarding understand what causes it?
From the way it's being discussed, I'd say not many. As mentioned above, Hack does a pretty good demo of it, and explains why it happens and what causes it. While some guns may be more prone to it, you're the one causing it.
While I do agree 100% with you, Rob, i have handled M&Ps that were VERY prone to auto forwarding. I owned one that you could very gently tap the mag in on a table, perfectly flat with the basepad, and it would auto forward. That particular gun had a very touchy slidestop as well though.
All I know is M&Ps most certainly are more prone to autoforwarding than Glocks. I also know that if I get into a gunfight, I'll most likely be jamming those mags in sideways if I have to during a reload. Trust me, I will make that mag well take the magazine horizontally and the gun will HAPPILY feed those bullets if I have to. That's stress. You can remember to do things, but you will do them much more aggressively and / or sloppier.
Plus think of it this way. Most amateur shooters think auto forwarding on M&Ps are a "cool feature". Make that "cool feature" harder to do, and they won't discover it to begin with. It could save a life. Then there's that RUMOR (emphasis) that SW lost some LE contracts because of how stupid easy prone the M&P is to auto forwarding.
As far as debating the small stuff between platforms, that's why Internet gun forums exist. You can't find people who share the depth of knowledge to discuss these things with as easily out in public. Telling people to stop worrying about stuff and just go shoot contributes nothing to an Internet forum. There's been at least one person in this thread who learned what auto forwarding is, and another who learned why it is bad. That's a solid thread in my opinion. Folks shot the shit, talked about their experiences, and some learned a few things.
I have a mid-sized .45. I can get it to auto forward by inserting the mag hard with the weapon tilted to the right; it's not an issue for me. Auto-forwarding during a rapid mag change is something I consider a bonus, and will rock with it.
On the range I don't slam mags in and don't get any auto-forwarding.
I don't see the point in a Glock vs M&P vs anything else argument. I like the grips on my M&P and felt that they fit my hands better then a Glock or XD.
Good friend (Retired SF) has a Glock and tells me the M&P feels funny in his hands (but he still drills the 10 ring).
c'est la vie.
Glock v. M&P, Ford v. Chevy, BMW v. Mercedes.....does it really matter?
I have one of each (G & MP) like them both, like anything else just a matter of personal preference.
I shoot the M&P because to me they are an absolute pleasure to shoot.
It's recoil when compared to a glock is probably the biggest plus. To me the glock recoil is a bit snappier when comparing it to my M&P9 or my .45, it just feel much smoother for lack of a better term.
Same with the grip and the way it feels in my hand. Also my M&Ps never tear up my hand with the slide. I was real happy about that.
I had a trigger job done on both my 9 and .45 and they feel great now, but even the stock trigger on my particular pistols wasn't too bad, a bit heavy but nothing ridiculous and full grit. Certainly better than a Glock. I'm just a big fan of them.
I still have a G19 and the only reason I have;t dumped it for another M&P is all the left handed holster's I have and the 10 or 15 brand new mags I have. As a result, the gun has become my girlfriends gun. Who knows I might still get rid of it and pick up another M&P 9.
.
Nobody knows auto-forward better than a P30(L) owner, lol.
Mauser KAR98K
04-22-12, 18:53
I picked up the M&P .45 because I wanted a hi capacity .45 that didn't feel like a brick in my hand, but held more rounds than a 1911, and was lighter in doing so. I had considered the FN FNP, and the XD, but the grip on the M&P won out. The thumb safety and striker fire was a bonus in my book.
As for the auto forwarding issue. My G17 did the same thing when I was an LEO. I didn't mind it, and I was on top of the slide stop when it didn't. My M&P does it religiously, unless I gently seat the mag in. But big boy rules kick in and I hit the slide release. Other than that, I am pretty cool with it.
...Auto-forwarding during a rapid mag change is something I consider a bonus, and will rock with it.
On the range I don't slam mags in and don't get any auto-forwarding.
....
It's been mentioned a few times, but may have gotten lost in long posts...
AUTO FORWARDING = BAD
It's definitely not a bonus. Its detrimental and has cost SW sales. It's not so much slamming the mags in as using an improper angle. Rob S alluded to it earlier - which I totally agree with (save any faulty guns - which a small minority of M&Ps seem to be) - but he basically said "if you are auto forwarding, you're doing it wrong."
brickboy240
04-23-12, 11:00
Never had any of my 3 Glocks auto-forward. Had that happen with a borrowed HK USP...but never a Glock.
The trigger reset on the M&P will keep me from owning one. Glock's is sooo much better right out of the box.
If you like the M&P, shoot it. Its just not for me.
- bickboy240
Never had any of my 3 Glocks auto-forward. Had that happen with a borrowed HK USP...but never a Glock.
The trigger reset on the M&P will keep me from owning one. Glock's is sooo much better right out of the box.
If you like the M&P, shoot it. Its just not for me.
- bickboy240
This is a silly reason to not own an M&P (as a $21 dollar part from Apex changes it). ;)
C4
Has anyone ever had an M&P auto forward without chambering a round?
IMO the main reason not to own an M&P is the cost of making the 9mms shoot acceptably once a "fix" is finally available.
I have not had the experience that Mr. Yam had where 147 gr rounds would shoot well. I own or have owned several 9mms produced from 2010-2011, and none could hold a respectable group at 25 yards, no matter the load.
I own a few M&Ps in other calibers, and a .40 Compact I have can easily outshoot the 9mms, holding 3.5-4" 10-rd groups @ 25 with point and click ease.
Yeah, on a .45mid that auto-forwarded fairly consistently, maybe as much as 30% of the time, and that was without ham-fisting my reloads. Some guns just do it.....
In my case, it was flat-nosed ball/conical-shaped bullets that made it choke. Didn't occur when I dropped the slide normally, only on auto-forward; weird. I shot through that batch and never got them again. For that reason, I'll take advantage of an auto-forward, but do not make the mistake of depending upon it to the point that I don't bother doing something to actively drop the slide.
With students' M&Ps, as well, though not limited to M&Ps. Thinking on it, in order of greatest incidence for M&Ps -- .45, 9mm, .40. Never seen any compacts do it, though. Strictly personal observation there.
On guns that actively auto-forward, the slide may sometimes drop before you have the mag seated (usually pretty damned rough reloads), so having one choke is not automatically ammo-related. Some work on smoothing out one's reload to make it more rapid/deliberate than fast/hard is worthwhile. There's a difference, and the former is actually faster, anyway.
Has anyone ever had an M&P auto forward without chambering a round?
Yes.
This is the primary reason why auto forwarding is not desirable. IF you hit the frame in the wrong place on a poorly executed reload you can drop the slide prematurely. If this hasnt happened to you, you dont shoot enough. Period.
Yes, it is largely a training issue BUT on my Glocks the slide will not drop until i TELL it to, even if i fubar the reload with a strong thumb release of the slide lock.
The bottom line is that EVERY semi auto will auto forward. Some are more prone to it due to DESIGN (or poor design).
The slide lock or the notch in the frame needs to be looked at and potentially redesigned.
Is it a fatal flaw? No, absolutely not but it is something that alot of people regard as a detractor to the overall platform.
Has anyone ever had an M&P auto forward without chambering a round?
Yes.
C4
I don't know much about Hilton Yam but there is no argument about Ken's experience and credentials. He demostrates this in his classes and it's obvious it has nothing to do with the brand of gun.
Exactly. Almost any gun will do it if you smack the frame hard enough while seating the mag on a reload. I'd say my M&P's do it about 95% of the time and of those most times it picks up a round just fine. However the couple of times it hasn't picked up a new round were frustrating and the times it doesn't auto-forward I usually look like a paste eater for a second while my brain works through what to do. As a result I'm working hard on my reload training to make it not happen but understand that the problem is the software and not the hardware.
snackgunner
04-23-12, 12:14
Grant, any update on this?
"We worked up a new slide catch for the M&P and gave it to S&W at Shot Show. It made it much harder for the gun to auto forward, but was still easy to release (hard thing to do). They are currently T&Eing it. "
http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=639776&postcount=6
Grant, any update on this?
"We worked up a new slide catch for the M&P and gave it to S&W at Shot Show. It made it much harder for the gun to auto forward, but was still easy to release (hard thing to do). They are currently T&Eing it. "
http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=639776&postcount=6
I know that they are working on this problem, but I do not have an ETA on when they will resolve it.
C4
I know that they are working on this problem, but I do not have an ETA on when they will resolve it.
C4
Anyone know how they will resolve it, meaning can one send them their pistol to have them work it or will it be part of the new run coming out once implemented?
Anyone know how they will resolve it, meaning can one send them their pistol to have them work it or will it be part of the new run coming out once implemented?
Rick,
No one can answer that.
What i will say is that if you complain loudly enough you should be able to have the pistol "repaired" under warranty.
A prime example would be the early compact models that were experiencing magazine catch related issues. S&W swapped the mag catches free of charge.
Only time will tell. We would HOPE that anything Smith does will be backwards compatible but stranger things have happened so again...lets see how it shakes out.
Anyone know how they will resolve it, meaning can one send them their pistol to have them work it or will it be part of the new run coming out once implemented?
I know how I resolved it, but don't know if they will follow my idea. :D
I am guessing that once they have an updated part, they will just start using them and then as people call them about this issue, they will install them into your gun.
We also plan on stock them for people that want to buy them.
C4
I know how I resolved it, but don't know if they will follow my idea. :D
I am guessing that once they have an updated part, they will just start using them and then as people call them about this issue, they will install them into your gun.
We also plan on stock them for people that want to buy them.
C4
Thanks guys.
So is the fix or proposed fix a part that can be swapped out or do they need to work the slide?
Thanks guys.
So is the fix or proposed fix a part that can be swapped out or do they need to work the slide?
You would just install a new slide catch.
C4
You would just install a new slide catch.
C4
Can I assume this is a G&R special slide catch you put on to resolve the issue and not a stock S&W part since it sounds like S&W hasn't updated anything? Is it something you keep in stock?
Can I assume this is a G&R special slide catch you put on to resolve the issue and not a stock S&W part since it sounds like S&W hasn't updated anything? Is it something you keep in stock?
We modified a factory part to fix the problem.
C4
sniperfrog
04-23-12, 16:46
I had a problem with my M&P9s slide catch being way too hard to press, like nearly impossible. I sent it back and they installed a new one. The gun won't auto-forward at all yet the catch is pretty easy to press.
I'm quite pleased with it.
Granted, this is a sample size of 1, but I handled a friend's brand new M&P 9fs a few weeks ago and it would absolutely not auto forward no matter what.
Sniperfrog - if you mean M&P 9c, then that's common. I filed mine and it worked fine after that. There was a small bur.
When I say "common", I mean that I described the problem and solution at a pistol class and the guy next to me said 'me too', and then the guy next to him said 'me too'. So that was either one hell of a coincidence, or it's common.
packinaglock
04-24-12, 16:23
I have Glocks and M&P's. My question is are Glocks built sturdier than M&P's? I always hear that you can run +p+ through a glock till your bank account caves in. With the M&P's I keep hearing +P+ is a definate no,no. :confused:
Who is telling you that you cannot run +P+ in an M&P?
Whoever that is doesnt know what they're talking about.
The bottom line is that BOTH pistols will handle +P+ ammunition but the more of that you shoot the sooner the pistol is going to "wear out" or break down.
I THINK the S&W manual says the pistol is not rated for +P+ but that is only to cover their asses from a liability standpoint.
John_Burns
04-24-12, 17:00
In 5 IPSC and 3 gun matches my M&P FS .45 has always auto forwarded when doing a reload from slide lock. Seems when the timer is running I will seat the mag with enough force to cause my M&P to auto forward.
I have also never had a stoppage from auto forwarding.
I just did 36 slide lock reloads and got 34 auto forwards and no stoppages.
In the case of my particular pistol/ ammo I am not worried about a stoppage from auto forward but I do work at not depending on the auto forward.
Count me as another fan of the M&P but I could live without the auto forward feature.
packinaglock
04-24-12, 18:47
Who is telling you that you cannot run +P+ in an M&P?
Whoever that is doesnt know what they're talking about.
The bottom line is that BOTH pistols will handle +P+ ammunition but the more of that you shoot the sooner the pistol is going to "wear out" or break down.
I THINK the S&W manual says the pistol is not rated for +P+ but that is only to cover their asses from a liability standpoint.
Basicly just reading threads at the S&W M&P forum.
I have Glocks and M&P's. My question is are Glocks built sturdier than M&P's? I always hear that you can run +p+ through a glock till your bank account caves in. With the M&P's I keep hearing +P+ is a definate no,no. :confused:
The majority of duty ammo is +P so go ahead and shoot it.
C4
S&W would be delighted to see how this thread has moved to auto forwarding, and away from their big issue -- the typical M&P 9's poor accuracy and inability to shoot different 9mm loads to the same point of impact.
I respect Hilton, and understand a lot of what he likes about the M&P, but his argument for the M&P9, in light of the accuracy problem, is equivalent to telling someone how great your bird dog is even though the dog bites most every person it sees. I think the sensible thing to do is stick your M&P9 pistols in a box until Smith or Apex fix the accuracy problem, and the sooner S&W gets the message the better.
S&W would be delighted to see how this thread has moved to auto forwarding, and away from their big issue -- the typical M&P 9's poor accuracy and inability to shoot different 9mm loads to the same point of impact.
I respect Hilton, and understand a lot of what he likes about the M&P, but his argument for the M&P9, in light of the accuracy problem, is equivalent to telling someone how great your bird dog is even though the dog bites most every person it sees. I think the sensible thing to do is stick your M&P9 pistols in a box until Smith or Apex fix the accuracy problem, and the sooner S&W gets the message the better.
Yet the guy still places 24th at the area six regional USPSA championship...
Practical accuracy seems good enough for him and he even acknowledged the weird inconsistencies with the platform.
Smith needs to fix the issue but i still think it is being set afire with maniacal fervor and hysteria, ie blown out of proportion.
I own two Gen 3's, a 23 and 26 and I like them alot. Over the years I have shot countless Glocks and really enjoy shooting them. But I am evidentally one of the few extremely pleased M&P owners. I purchased an M&P40c over 3 years ago as another back-up/off duty carry gun as a test. As of my last range session I have just over 15,000 rounds through it without ever cleaning it. It did finally malfuntion during my last range session at round 15003. The slide failed to seat fully and I had to bump it forward once to fire the last 6 rounds in the mag. I repeat I have never cleaned the weapon, only added oil. I pulled the slide off after that mag, added oil and fired another 30 rounds. I am very impressed with this, as neither of my Glocks have come close to this. I must admit the stock trigger reset is not as firm or audible as Glock, but I like the trigger pull of my M&P as well. Both of my M&P's auto-forward quite a bit, but both my Glocks do when I reload too aggressively. Obviously I do. But I dont mind the auto-forwarding, especially during competition. I prefer the ergonomics of the M&P over the Glock, as well as controls for left handed shooting. Couple that with easy drop-free mags, and the M&P is the better fit for me. Also I own a 40 Pro Series that I use for competition that I installed the Apex FSS & trigger. With this mod the M&P far exceeds any Glock I have shot. I have heard numerous horror stories about both Glocks and M&P's, but have had no REAL bad experiences with either. As far as accuracy at 25 yards goes. If I am that far away I will be shooting a long gun :P.
Really like this article because it goes over the strengths and weakness of each platform from the perspective of the shooter.
I just purchased my first Glock and I own a M&P45 and 40c. Surprisingly I like the 9mm Glock over the M&P 9 and vice versa in 45. The Glock shoots great in 9mm and none of the negatives that people claim bother me.
I feel like pistol fundamentals make a bigger difference on how you shoot a gun, however changing the factory trigger on the M&P did make a huge difference.
Yet the guy still places 24th at the area six regional USPSA championship...
.
The next question is where he would've placed if he'd shot something that groups.
Rhetorical questions aside, you get a guy who's an established shooter and he would do OK even if his gun is subpar. Then you get a guy who looks for every bit of positive reinforcement when he brings his target back from 25, he sees 8 inch pattern and has no clue what or who to blame.
M&P's accuracy problem is every bit similar to Glock Gen4 reliability problem - both exist, to what extent true vs blown up is unknown, what's known is that confidence in platform is greatly diminished.
To counter Hilton, I don't have much choice what grain training ammo to get, 115, 124, 147, I get whatever is cheapest within my quality requirements. As such, all of my M&P shooting is done at 15 yards or less. All of my Glock (and HK) shooting is done at whatever distances I care for. It is a big deal for me.
And, since I've gotten into this thread, I'd mention the following: he mentions a similarity of safety-enabled M&P to a 1911. I find that safety on M&P is a lot less ergonomic that one on 1911; I really hope for an aftermarket low-shelf M&P safety. Until then, my thumb is stretched up and I feel that it exerts excessive tension on that safety. M&P manual safety loses ambidexterity with introduction of laser grips, 1911 doesn't. Apex kits drop trigger pull below 5 lbs on few M&Ps, mine included. I wouldn't carry sub-5 trigger safety-less gun, and even with manual safety I'd be more comfortable with above 5.
I appreciate Mr. Yam's opinion on many other gun-related matters, just don't particularly agree on this one.
M&P's accuracy problem is every bit similar to Glock Gen4 reliability problem - both exist, to what extent true vs blown up is unknown, what's known is that confidence in platform is greatly diminished.
POP! (hand blocks sun from eyes). Dude, you just knocked that fugger right out of the park with that statement.
One thing i disagree with you on is the safety. While I agree that it isn't 1911-good, it is still pretty damn close. I can't think of another pistol that comes closer to being the perfect thumb safety (1911 extended) than the M&P line.
Although we are probably on the same page anyway. Just thought I'd point it out, since I love the M&P thumb safety.
Yet the guy still places 24th at the area six regional USPSA championship...
Practical accuracy seems good enough for him and he even acknowledged the weird inconsistencies with the platform.
Smith needs to fix the issue but i still think it is being set afire with maniacal fervor and hysteria, ie blown out of proportion.
Placing 24th tells us almost nothing about the accuracy of M&P9 pistols generally. First, Hilton is a very talented shooter, and probably could have placed well with a Kel-Tec. Second, most USPSA matches are hardly accuracy oriented. Third, M&P 9 pistols will often shoot a single load to 4-5 inches at 25 yards -- the problem is they shoot most loads to 6-8 inches at 25 yards with very different points if impact.
I spent countless hours and dollars screwing around with about ten M&P 9 pistols, trying to get a few that would shoot multiple loads to the same point of impact, to four inches or better at 25 yards, and finally gave up. The reason I did that, was I loved almost everything else about shooting the M&P. In retrospect, I would have far better off to have picked two, almost any two, Pre 2010 Glock 17's, and just focused on training, rather than messing around trying to find an acceptably accurate M&P.
If you can't shoot better than 8 inches at 25 yards, or really don't care about shooting at 25-100 yards, than carry on -- otherwise the accuracy problem is absolutely real and not at all overblown.
Yet the guy still places 24th at the area six regional USPSA championship...
Practical accuracy seems good enough for him and he even acknowledged the weird inconsistencies with the platform.
Smith needs to fix the issue but i still think it is being set afire with maniacal fervor and hysteria, ie blown out of proportion.
This is the BEST description of the "problem" that I have seen.
C4
The next question is where he would've placed if he'd shot something that groups.
Rhetorical questions aside, you get a guy who's an established shooter and he would do OK even if his gun is subpar. Then you get a guy who looks for every bit of positive reinforcement when he brings his target back from 25, he sees 8 inch pattern and has no clue what or who to blame.
M&P's accuracy problem is every bit similar to Glock Gen4 reliability problem - both exist, to what extent true vs blown up is unknown, what's known is that confidence in platform is greatly diminished.
To counter Hilton, I don't have much choice what grain training ammo to get, 115, 124, 147, I get whatever is cheapest within my quality requirements. As such, all of my M&P shooting is done at 15 yards or less. All of my Glock (and HK) shooting is done at whatever distances I care for. It is a big deal for me.
And, since I've gotten into this thread, I'd mention the following: he mentions a similarity of safety-enabled M&P to a 1911. I find that safety on M&P is a lot less ergonomic that one on 1911; I really hope for an aftermarket low-shelf M&P safety. Until then, my thumb is stretched up and I feel that it exerts excessive tension on that safety. M&P manual safety loses ambidexterity with introduction of laser grips, 1911 doesn't. Apex kits drop trigger pull below 5 lbs on few M&Ps, mine included. I wouldn't carry sub-5 trigger safety-less gun, and even with manual safety I'd be more comfortable with above 5.
I appreciate Mr. Yam's opinion on many other gun-related matters, just don't particularly agree on this one.
This is interesting. 1911's typically have a trigger pull of 3-4.5LBS. No one seems to have an issue with this pull weight.
"But Grant, there are two safeties on the 1911 and my Glock or M&P only has one." Actually your Glock and M&P have MORE safeties (IMHO) than a 1911 does. How? When you put your hand on the 1911, the grip safety is gone. As soon as the gun clears the holster and becomes oriented towards the threat, the TS is down. So now you have one safety (your brain) and that is the only thing keeping your finger off of a 3-4.5" trigger with almost NO take up. Also, the real purpose of the TS on a 1911 is for putting the gun back into the holster while riding on horseback. ;)
Using Mr. Hackathorn as a reference, triggers on Combat guns should be around DOUBLE the weight of the firearm. So if your gun is 2LBS, having a trigger pull of 4lbs would be ideal. Less than double is not ideal on a combat HG though.
C4
Second, most USPSA matches are hardly accuracy oriented. Third, M&P 9 pistols will often shoot a single load to 4-5 inches at 25 yards -- the problem is they shoot most loads to 6-8 inches at 25 yards with very different points if impact.
I think this IS the point + some. Many of the shots taken in gun games are under 25yds. In some gun games, you can almost miss fast enough to win! :no: Most people can't shoot 4" groups at 25yds standing while under a timer.
The M&P can shoot 4-5 round strings at 25yds that are UNDER 4 inches (do it all the time with mine).
The above is why many people have ZERO issues with their firearms accuracy. While I personally do shoot at distances past 25yds and would like my M&P to shoot better than it does, I have never felt that I would not be able to defend myself or compete with it.
Just to be clear, I ping S&W all the time about accuracy. The problem is that the majority of M&P owners out there don't care or don't think there is a problem. They are the 80% percenters. A very small portion of the buying market is needing a firearm to shoot under 4inches at 25yds (10rd groups). These are the 20 percenters.
Point to all of this is that it is ONLY A PROBLEM if you think it is a problem and most don't.
I appreciate all the accuracy testing you did and forwarded that entire thread up through the chain at S&W.
C4
I think this IS the point + some. Many of the shots taken in gun games are under 25yds. In some gun games, you can almost miss fast enough to win! :no: Most people can't shoot 4" groups at 25yds standing while under a timer.
The M&P can shoot 4-5 round strings at 25yds that are UNDER 4 inches (do it all the time with mine).
The above is why many people have ZERO issues with their firearms accuracy. While I personally do shoot at distances past 25yds and would like my M&P to shoot better than it does, I have never felt that I would not be able to defend myself or compete with it.
Just to be clear, I ping S&W all the time about accuracy. The problem is that the majority of M&P owners out there don't care or don't think there is a problem. They are the 80% percenters. A very small portion of the buying market is needing a firearm to shoot under 4inches at 25yds (10rd groups). These are the 20 percenters.
Point to all of this is that it is ONLY A PROBLEM if you think it is a problem and most don't.
I appreciate all the accuracy testing you did and forwarded that entire thread up through the chain at S&W.
C4
I sent mine in last year due to accuracy issues at distances beyond 15 yds. S&W sent it back and said it was "in-spec". They just need to license Apex's designs and offer an improved M&P or replace the pro models with Apex enhanced versions. That, or hire Randy to replace their entire engineering dept. :eek:
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I sent mine in last year due to accuracy issues at distances beyond 15 yds. S&W sent it back and said it was "in-spec". They just need to license Apex's designs and offer an improved M&P or replace the pro models with Apex enhanced versions. That, or hire Randy to replace their entire engineering dept. :eek:
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I know that many of us are frustrated, but you have to understand the MAIN TARGET AUDIENCE. Which is LE.
Most LE qual exams (at least the one in Ohio) require that officers shoot no farther than 50ft (which is about 16yds). They also shoot at targets the size of doors. This is why S&W does their accuracy testing at 15yds and does not care how it shoots past that distance.
Point to all of this is that S&W builds guns to win LE contracts. To date, S&W has NEVER lost an LE contract do to accuracy issues. What wins LE contracts is cost AND reliability. This is why Glock came out with the GEN 4 (as they were losing LE contracts to S&W).
If LE contracts were decided by which gun shot the best groups at 25yds, HK would win. ;)
C4
I know that many of us are frustrated, but you have to understand the MAIN TARGET AUDIENCE. Which is LE.
Most LE qual exams (at least the one in Ohio) require that officers shoot no farther than 50ft (which is about 16yds). They also shoot at targets the size of doors. This is why S&W does their accuracy testing at 15yds and does not care how it shoots past that distance.
Point to all of this is that S&W builds guns to win LE contracts. To date, S&W has NEVER lost an LE contract do to accuracy issues. What wins LE contracts is cost AND reliability. This is why Glock came out with the GEN 4 (as they were losing LE contracts to S&W).
If LE contracts were decided by which gun shot the best groups at 25yds, HK would win. ;)
C4
Great points Grant. Sucks for the rest of us though. I'll have HK money into my M&P by the time Randy comes out with the new barrels. My USPc was a tack driving machine. Still, the M&P is my favorite gun to shoot. Like I said elsewhere, if only my M&P was as accurate as my glock or my glock was as reliable as my M&P...
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Great points Grant. Sucks for the rest of us though. I'll have HK money into my M&P by the time Randy comes out with the new barrels. My USPc was a tack driving machine. Still, the M&P is my favorite gun to shoot. Like I said elsewhere, if only my M&P was as accurate as my glock or my glock was as reliable as my M&P...
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Thanks and I understand your pain.
We will be receiving our first trial shipment of over sized barrels from Storm Lake this week. We will be fitting them and if all turns out well, will be offering them.
C4
Great points Grant. Sucks for the rest of us though. I'll have HK money into my M&P by the time Randy comes out with the new barrels. My USPc was a tack driving machine. Still, the M&P is my favorite gun to shoot. Like I said elsewhere, if only my M&P was as accurate as my glock or my glock was as reliable as my M&P...
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I have no experience with M&P's in 9mm, and I am assuming that is the caliber we are talking about having accuracy issues. Interestingly enough I have been talking to the state contract Glock guy about switching our Sigs to Glocks, and he told me that the M&P was the more accurate weapon, but we shoot .40 cal. I was really shocked that he said this. Regardless, in NC the vast majority of LE does not qualify past 25 yards with pistols, because that is the state standard. As a firearms instructor for my agency I see no reason to shoot a pistol at a distance any greater than 25 yards unless the situation dictates. Not being mean, but your average LEO has trouble shooting at 25 yards during qualification. If you study LEO shootings you would be shocked at how often we miss our targets in real life deadly force scenarios at 10 yards and closer.
I think in all of our number crunching, academia and analysis we are losing sight of the practical purpose of what a fighting handgun is supposed to do versus a game gun or a target pistol.
If you cannot make a distinction between the two then there is a serious problem here as the two criteria are generally not mutually exclusive.
As an FYI, the area six match had a lot of targets at 30 yards so im not really sure what your measure of accuracy is in regard to competition because i certainly dont regard 100 yard groups as any benchmark of gunfighting ability.
GJM, YVK, (i believe you were at some point YVK) why are you guys not shooting 1911's if your benchmark of performance is 100 yard groups? Or for that matter, a rifle? This is more of a rhetorical question than anything as the answer is obvious...
What exactly do you expect out of your pistols? I dont think anyone here can argue that pistols are pretty piss poor excuses for killing implements and that we carry them simply because they are concealable and portable.
Smith designed a pistol to be effective at 15 yards and it certainly is.
SO, we have a power drill essentially designed to be operated fifteen yards and in. I would say that based upon the FBI's three primary criteria involved in gun related incidents/shootings we are still good to go. The criteria are:
Three rounds, three yards, three seconds.
The M&P operates exceptionally well within these statistics.
Is this CORRECT, or the way it should be? No, i want a pistol i can confidently shoot at 25 yards and GROUP with as i use this as an indicator of where my trigger control is at any given point during the year. The M&P DOES indeed have issues out to that distance but for PRACTICAL purposes, it is still able to do its job. Note i said practical and not some bullshit term like "combat accurate" which i absolutely hate. "Minute Of Man" also falls into the same category of loathing.
So, on paper, i understand your arguments but there seems to be too much of an emotional attachment with these pistols. If they do not meet YOUR criteria, step away and pick something else that does, it is that simple. Make your opinion known to Smith and charge on with something else.
Championing a crusade to rid the world of the M&P or to claw tooth and nail to the top of the S&W foodchain in an effort to have your feeble cries heard is also a waste of breathe as far as i am concerned. We have a ton of options out there and as CIVILIANS we have the CHOICE in what we carry.
Were i to be forced to use an M&P in a duty capacity i would have more to bitch and moan about in regard to the trigger than the accuracy of the pistol as i KNOW from a PRACTICAL standpoint, i can make any shot i need within 25 yards. We arent assassins guys, we arent shooting the medulla oblongota out of an aggressors skull at 25 yards, thats pretty far fetched even in an LE capacity. Not to mention, in an LE capacity, you have the marvelous gift of a rifle. :)
Perhaps the problem here is the broad interpretation of the word Practical. It is apparently an issue lost in translation between Smith and Wesson and the 20% that grant spoke about.
All in all, the bottom line is that you guys were salmon swimming upstream and what you guys dont recognize is that you had the option of sprouting legs, getting your asses out of the water and wandering off to do something else yet you cannot get over the fact that you were once salmon...
Personally, i shot M&P's for three years, i absolutely adore the platform. I never felt under gunned, under prepared or that the hardware was letting me down until the generation 4 Glocks came out. I switched because the gun (glock) fit my hand better, period, end of story. What it boils down to for me is so long as the hardware does not leave the software lacking, i will make things go bang and continue working on my own progression and my own standards.
You guys seem to have done this too so rock on and let it go.
Thanks and I understand your pain.
We will be receiving our first trial shipment of over sized barrels from Storm Lake this week. We will be fitting them and if all turns out well, will be offering them.
C4
Interesting, didn't know your were taking on this project. I thought Storm Lake only made drop in barrels. Did you have to order some custom made oversized barrels for this?
Interesting, didn't know your were taking on this project. I thought Storm Lake only made drop in barrels. Did you have to order some custom made oversized barrels for this?
Most of the S&W shooting team is running a fitted SL barrel (FYI). So they have a background in making them.
We had to talk them into making them so we will have the exclusive.
C4
Thanks and I understand your pain.
We will be receiving our first trial shipment of over sized barrels from Storm Lake this week. We will be fitting them and if all turns out well, will be offering them.
C4
Oversize fitted barrels and aftermarket parts? Sounds like the were are starting to 1911ify the M&P. ;)
Most of the S&W shooting team is running a fitted SL barrel (FYI). So they have a background in making them.
We had to talk them into making them so we will have the exclusive.
C4
Isn't that telling? Does the ST barrel use the same twist rate as the factory barrel?
Oversize fitted barrels and aftermarket parts? Sounds like the were are starting to 1911ify the M&P. ;)
Glock, HK, SIG, XD, etc all have aftermarket parts and fitted barrel options.
C4
Isn't that telling? Does the ST barrel use the same twist rate as the factory barrel?
No. 1/16.
C4
This is interesting. 1911's typically have a trigger pull of 3-4.5LBS. No one seems to have an issue with this pull weight.
"But Grant, there are two safeties on the 1911 and my Glock or M&P only has one." Actually your Glock and M&P have MORE safeties (IMHO) than a 1911 does.
Grant, much arguing here would be futile. I've spent a good deal of time bending leaf springs on my 1911s to keep the weight at 5 or above. The grip safety on my carry 1911, whenever I carry a 1911, is done by Ned Christiansen and allows for easy engagement and disengagement with slight change of grip. Regardless of what Ken says, and I respect his opinion as much as Hilton's, I wouldn't carry a 4 lbs trigger pistol, period. I am doing quite satisfactorily with 5.5-6 lbs triggers, and that's my personal preference - which is not an uncommon preference, by the way. If you, or somebody else wants to carry 4 lbs trigger, short take-up, safety-less pistol because Ken and Larry say it should be "gun weightx2", that's fine. I'd hazard a guess, though, that neither Ken nor Larry have their Glocks at 4 lbs.
What exactly do you expect out of your pistols?
Simple: not to screw up my experience, whether I am training, plinking, or just having a good time at the range. This is an all-encompassing expectation, reliability, ergos, and accuracy all come into equation. And, since I train, plink or shoot for fun at distances exceeding 15 yards quite regularly, M&P comes up short. Glocks,Gen3 and Gen4 (my samples), 1911s stock to semi- to full customs, H&Ks all have their own limitations, but, since the ultimate goal of launching a bullet is to see it hit the intended target, none of those other pistols annoy me as much as M&P does.
As far as a crusade or emotional attachment/detachment aspect, no, not really. I live a pretty full life, firearms ownership is just a part of it, I am well off not to worry about financial losses associated with a purchase of sub-par pistol or what have you, so I really don't care that much. Moving on/letting go for me - just as it is for you, GJM, and many/most other readers here - simply means reaching into the safe and picking up something else. I can/wil/have critiqued any one of the pistols I own; M&P gets more of it simply because I think it deserves more.
Dos Cylindros
04-25-12, 17:53
This group size issue is really starting to grow old. During qualification at our department, we regularly shoot 1/2 size IPSC sized steel plates at 100 yards with our issue M&P's. The notion that the gun was designed to only be accurate within 15 yards is a bit much if you ask me. I now work for a rural Sheriff's Dept., and alot of our range training is engagement at ranges far past 15 yards with every weapon in our tool box, including our issue handgun. Every shooter at my department can ring the steel at 100 yards with their issue handgun, admittedly some better than others.
Fighting with a handgun is not about shooting 1" groups at 25 yards. M&P's are entirely capable of giving acceptable combat accuracy at 25 yards and beyond. If you want to shoot 1" groups at 25 yards, you are not practicing self defense oriented shooting, and most likely you are using the wrong tool for the job. Now if you like to tinker with your stuff, and just want to see how much potential you can wring out of your gun, then have at it.
I think in all of our number crunching, academia and analysis we are losing sight of the practical purpose of what a fighting handgun is supposed to do versus a game gun or a target pistol.
If you cannot make a distinction between the two then there is a serious problem here as the two criteria are generally not mutually exclusive.
As an FYI, the area six match had a lot of targets at 30 yards so im not really sure what your measure of accuracy is in regard to competition because i certainly dont regard 100 yard groups as any benchmark of gunfighting ability.
GJM, YVK, (i believe you were at some point YVK) why are you guys not shooting 1911's if your benchmark of performance is 100 yard groups? Or for that matter, a rifle? This is more of a rhetorical question than anything as the answer is obvious...
What exactly do you expect out of your pistols? I dont think anyone here can argue that pistols are pretty piss poor excuses for killing implements and that we carry them simply because they are concealable and portable.
Smith designed a pistol to be effective at 15 yards and it certainly is.
SO, we have a power drill essentially designed to be operated fifteen yards and in. I would say that based upon the FBI's three primary criteria involved in gun related incidents/shootings we are still good to go. The criteria are:
Three rounds, three yards, three seconds.
The M&P operates exceptionally well within these statistics.
Is this CORRECT, or the way it should be? No, i want a pistol i can confidently shoot at 25 yards and GROUP with as i use this as an indicator of where my trigger control is at any given point during the year. The M&P DOES indeed have issues out to that distance but for PRACTICAL purposes, it is still able to do its job. Note i said practical and not some bullshit term like "combat accurate" which i absolutely hate. "Minute Of Man" also falls into the same category of loathing.
So, on paper, i understand your arguments but there seems to be too much of an emotional attachment with these pistols. If they do not meet YOUR criteria, step away and pick something else that does, it is that simple. Make your opinion known to Smith and charge on with something else.
Championing a crusade to rid the world of the M&P or to claw tooth and nail to the top of the S&W foodchain in an effort to have your feeble cries heard is also a waste of breathe as far as i am concerned. We have a ton of options out there and as CIVILIANS we have the CHOICE in what we carry.
Were i to be forced to use an M&P in a duty capacity i would have more to bitch and moan about in regard to the trigger than the accuracy of the pistol as i KNOW from a PRACTICAL standpoint, i can make any shot i need within 25 yards. We arent assassins guys, we arent shooting the medulla oblongota out of an aggressors skull at 25 yards, thats pretty far fetched even in an LE capacity. Not to mention, in an LE capacity, you have the marvelous gift of a rifle. :)
Perhaps the problem here is the broad interpretation of the word Practical. It is apparently an issue lost in translation between Smith and Wesson and the 20% that grant spoke about.
All in all, the bottom line is that you guys were salmon swimming upstream and what you guys dont recognize is that you had the option of sprouting legs, getting your asses out of the water and wandering off to do something else yet you cannot get over the fact that you were once salmon...
Personally, i shot M&P's for three years, i absolutely adore the platform. I never felt under gunned, under prepared or that the hardware was letting me down until the generation 4 Glocks came out. I switched because the gun (glock) fit my hand better, period, end of story. What it boils down to for me is so long as the hardware does not leave the software lacking, i will make things go bang and continue working on my own progression and my own standards.
You guys seem to have done this too so rock on and let it go.
Exactly!!! Great post.
Placing 24th tells us almost nothing about the accuracy of M&P9 pistols generally. First, Hilton is a very talented shooter, and probably could have placed well with a Kel-Tec. Second, most USPSA matches are hardly accuracy oriented. Third, M&P 9 pistols will often shoot a single load to 4-5 inches at 25 yards -- the problem is they shoot most loads to 6-8 inches at 25 yards with very different points if impact.
I spent countless hours and dollars screwing around with about ten M&P 9 pistols, trying to get a few that would shoot multiple loads to the same point of impact, to four inches or better at 25 yards, and finally gave up. The reason I did that, was I loved almost everything else about shooting the M&P. In retrospect, I would have far better off to have picked two, almost any two, Pre 2010 Glock 17's, and just focused on training, rather than messing around trying to find an acceptably accurate M&P.
If you can't shoot better than 8 inches at 25 yards, or really don't care about shooting at 25-100 yards, than carry on -- otherwise the accuracy problem is absolutely real and not at all overblown.
I agree with GJM about the significance of this issue vs autoforwarding. I think Hilton reported his guns shot to 3" or so at 25 yds as some will do. If he'd gotten 6" or 8" guns, I'll bet this problem might likely figure a lot more prominently in his review. [edit YVK was nice enough to remind me of what I'd read and forgotten, Yam's guns sucked in accuracy too except with 147 grain ammo.)
I think Hilton reported his guns shot to 3" or so at 25 yds as some will do. If he'd gotten 6" or 8" guns, I'll bet this problem might likely figure a lot more prominently in his review.
This is from Mr. Yam's report:
My 3 primary M&P 9mm's will all shoot 3" or better at 25 yards with any 147 grain ammunition that I feed them, and two of them have printed 2 5/8" standing offhand at 25 yards with 147 grain. That works for me. However, all three of the guns shoot about 6-8" at 25 yards using 115 and 124 grain ammo. My solution at this point is just to stick with 147 grain.
I think this is very consistent with what GJM found in his testing, and consistent with many reports of M&Ps doing well with a +P carry ammo.
The M&P can shoot 4-5 round strings at 25yds that are UNDER 4 inches (do it all the time with mine).
Ditto for me. Sure, i guess some of them are less accurate than what's wanted, but we both know there's a far larger % of people who (1) can't outshoot the least accuarate M&P (2) one more excuse why they can't hit shit.
This is a n =2 only observation (make it 3 if you include mine) but have had two people bitch about their M&P 9mm (and the 'net confirmed for them this massive problem...) to take them to the range, bench rest shoot it, and see sub 4" groups at 25 yards with basic Winchester White box range ammo.
And for the ranges the vast majority of people actually shoot or ever will shoot, holes appear where they are intended to.
That's not to excuse some % of M&P 9mm that go out the door less then acceptable accurate, but I suspect the 'net, as usual, has amplified to "common" status which actually quite rare.
Don't know of any objective figures there.
This is from Mr. Yam's report:
My 3 primary M&P 9mm's will all shoot 3" or better at 25 yards with any 147 grain ammunition that I feed them, and two of them have printed 2 5/8" standing offhand at 25 yards with 147 grain. That works for me. However, all three of the guns shoot about 6-8" at 25 yards using 115 and 124 grain ammo. My solution at this point is just to stick with 147 grain.
I think this is very consistent with what GJM found in his testing, and consistent with many reports of M&Ps doing well with a +P carry ammo.
OMG of course it sure is! Only his good accuracy stuck in my head. Just like my own range performances. ;) Well there we go. I don't reload and no way can I find 147 grain training ammo for $200/case so thats not much consolation to me.
I may edit my quote/reply to GJM since I may not have been clear I meant to be agreeing with him that its a big deal if you didn't get one of the accurate guns. As it turns out I'd forgotten a pretty salient fact. Thank much for the correction!
Grant, much arguing here would be futile. I've spent a good deal of time bending leaf springs on my 1911s to keep the weight at 5 or above. The grip safety on my carry 1911, whenever I carry a 1911, is done by Ned Christiansen and allows for easy engagement and disengagement with slight change of grip. Regardless of what Ken says, and I respect his opinion as much as Hilton's, I wouldn't carry a 4 lbs trigger pistol, period. I am doing quite satisfactorily with 5.5-6 lbs triggers, and that's my personal preference - which is not an uncommon preference, by the way. If you, or somebody else wants to carry 4 lbs trigger, short take-up, safety-less pistol because Ken and Larry say it should be "gun weightx2", that's fine. I'd hazard a guess, though, that neither Ken nor Larry have their Glocks at 4 lbs.
I understand that you like your trigger pull a certain way (your gun your choice). Some would argue that anything less than a 10LBS Trigger isn't safe. Those PD's and agencies that require that pull weight believe that they are saving themselves from a "bad shoot." The truth is that under stress, it does not matter if you have a 3LBS OR 12LBS trigger pull (neither of which are saving you from a bad decision) and all it is really doing is making it that much harder to put a round where you want.
I am pretty sure both Ken and LAV run 3.5 connectors in their Glock's.
C4
This is from Mr. Yam's report:
My 3 primary M&P 9mm's will all shoot 3" or better at 25 yards with any 147 grain ammunition that I feed them, and two of them have printed 2 5/8" standing offhand at 25 yards with 147 grain. That works for me. However, all three of the guns shoot about 6-8" at 25 yards using 115 and 124 grain ammo. My solution at this point is just to stick with 147 grain.
I think this is very consistent with what GJM found in his testing, and consistent with many reports of M&Ps doing well with a +P carry ammo.
Actually, the only thing consistent about my sample of M&P9's (4 Pro's, 2 C's, and a half dozen full size models) was that nothing was consistent. About half had to go back to the factory as I could find no load that would shoot, and they replaced the slide or barrel on each pistol. Of the ones that shot a load well, meaning about 4 inches at 25 yards, they typically only shot that one load well, and other loads were inaccurate or so different in POI that they were unusable without a sight adjustment. I had to keep detailed notes on each pistol's preference, like for a precision rifle, and masking tape on each slide with the pistol's preference. My main RMR FS shoots 124 ball under two inches at 25 yards, but when I went to Rogers Shooting School in March, and was required to use TMJ, I had a heck of a time finding a load that would shoot. No kidding, several of my various M&P 9's like 147, others like 124 and still more only shot 115, but trying to find one that would shoot a carry and practice load was a like solving a jigsaw puzzle. Traveling to a course with a back-up pistol required multiples kinds of ammo, and when factoring in carry ammo, you traveled like a small ammo store. Ultimately, I just simplified by carrying a G19 as my carry gun, since it shot everything more or less the same. All the time, my wife just howled at me, as her Pre 2010 Glock 9's shot everything well.
I documented much of this is a serious of contemporaneous posts that Grant alluded to. My interest is not a crusade against the M&P, but expressing my opinion, based on relevant, recent experience with a sample large enough to be meaningful, as a counterpoint to Hilton's argument for the M&P.
I am pretty sure both Ken and LAV run 3.5 connectors in their Glock's.
C4
...which gets them about 5 lbs, if not higher, pull weight, right? Mine is 5.25 on a 2009 Gen 3 G-19 with a negative connector.
As noted in the same article by Hilton, Glock's advertised 5.5 lbs trigger weight with regular connector is closer to a myth then a reality. I think DocGKR reported that they were seeing average trigger pulls of 6.5 lbs with stock connector in Gen 3 Glocks. Perhaps that's the reason why LAV changed his way about it; last I trained with him, he shot a Bowie-overworked 19 with a stock trigger.
...which gets them about 5 lbs, if not higher, pull weight, right? Mine is 5.25 on a 2009 Gen 3 G-19 with a negative connector.
As noted in the same article by Hilton, Glock's advertised 5.5 lbs trigger weight with regular connector is closer to a myth then a reality. I think DocGKR reported that they were seeing average trigger pulls of 6.5 lbs with stock connector in Gen 3 Glocks. Perhaps that's the reason why LAV changed his way about it; last I trained with him, he shot a Bowie-overworked 19 with a stock trigger.
This varies widely from my experience. How rough or smooth the trigger bar is matters a lot. If you read the Glock trigger job thread I did, that GEN 2 trigger bar was pretty rough.
Also what matters is the 3.5 connector. Some of the after market ones give you a a better pull weight.
So to answer your question, the trigger pull can be between 4.5-5 and I believe that both Ken and LAV has Glock's that have been "stepped on" by various pistol smiths.
C4
Just fyi the NC State Contract seller for Glock recently told me that every LE agency in NC using the M&P is trying to get away from them because they are falling apart. Also that Glock will not do flat trades anymore because they feel they have no competitionin the LE market because S&W is for sell??? Anyone else heard this? I think it is used car salesman BS myself. I work in Western NC and other than NCSHP, NC DOC, and Probation & Parole I don't know of any agencies around here using them. I do know that my Sheriff will not trade 4 year old 2 tone Sigs for Glocks and pay an additional $100 per gun like that particular guy wanted. Especially after he quoted an even trade 10 months ago. My boss is really put out with Glock and that might push him toward M&P's.
Just fyi the NC State Contract seller for Glock recently told me that every LE agency in NC using the M&P is trying to get away from them because they are falling apart.
I am sure the GLOCK LE sales rep DID tell you that. Did they also mention all the issues they are having by chance?? :sarcastic:
Also that Glock will not do flat trades anymore because they feel they have no competitionin the LE market because S&W is for sell??? Anyone else heard this?
Yes, this rumor is an old one.
C4
C4- I have quized every State Trooper I have met about their M&P's. Aside from a few of the older Troopers liking the Sigs they had before better, I have not heard any negative feedback about the M&P's. I have also not heard anything bad about the Gen 4 Glocks from LEOs. But I haven't heard of anyone with a Taurus complaining either. Most people, including LEO's, simply do not run their weapons hard enough to cause malfunctions. Now I realize that my sources in NC do not cover the entire state much less the entire country which is why I am on this site. So I can gather valuable info from all over. Just out of curiousity would you recommend M&P40's as a duty weapon for a LE agency.
Just fyi the NC State Contract seller for Glock recently told me
Now there's an objective source... Just sayin' :cool:
I am sure the GLOCK LE sales rep DID tell you that. Did they also mention all the issues they are having by chance?? :sarcastic:C4
Yes he did. He said it's all due to shooters limp wristing. LOL!
TacMedic556
04-26-12, 23:35
On our SRT team we have a mix of pistols. From high end 1911s, HK, M&Ps and most common is the Glock. On the County team, it is about 90% Glocks on the team. The one officer, on our team who has the M&P decided after our last qual day to sale his M&P.
He has not yet decided on what platform he will move to. He told me when I asked him why, that the mags were crap and several have been rendered useless just in training and in dropping half loaded mags on the deck while doing reloads. He mentioned some about the trigger.
The best 2 pistol shooters on our team use 21 SF Glocks. The Wilson Combat shooter is good, accurate, but that gun is picky on ammunition and malfs a ton. I was 2nd in to the shoot house last week behind him when he yelled, "malfunction, malfunction, malfunction!" and took a knee trying to work it out. This is routine with his gun. Always working out some weird feeding shit or extraction issue on the line.
The Glocks run.
High Altitude
04-27-12, 00:08
He told me when I asked him why, that the mags were crap and several have been rendered useless just in training and in dropping half loaded mags on the deck while doing reloads.
IMO, glock has the absolute best magazines out there by far. They can take a ton of abuse without breaking floor plates, popping open or getting the follower jammed up with grit/dirt etc....
My experience with M&P mags is slightly different:
My M&P 40 mags get dropped regularly in IPSC matches with no problems what so ever. They are used the same day over and over again in various stages.
The 4 magazines have fed the gun over 2000 rounds, with no problems, and have never been cleaned.
Chief
cheapsandwich
04-27-12, 08:28
That mag problem may have been due to a floor plate catch that was phased out. Some had the metal catch centered in the floor plate, others had it at the rear and a plastic catch.
The rearward ones would crack, I called S&W and got the metal catch and centered floor plates and have not had an issue since.
Stronger design, IMHO
Yes he did. He said it's all due to shooters limp wristing. LOL!
That’s the standard Glock excuse.
Yes he did. He said it's all due to shooters limp wristing. LOL!
That is all you need to know right there. The next time the guy starts talking, just stop listening.
C4
C4- I have quized every State Trooper I have met about their M&P's. Aside from a few of the older Troopers liking the Sigs they had before better, I have not heard any negative feedback about the M&P's. I have also not heard anything bad about the Gen 4 Glocks from LEOs. But I haven't heard of anyone with a Taurus complaining either. Most people, including LEO's, simply do not run their weapons hard enough to cause malfunctions. Now I realize that my sources in NC do not cover the entire state much less the entire country which is why I am on this site. So I can gather valuable info from all over. Just out of curiousity would you recommend M&P40's as a duty weapon for a LE agency.
I think all the M&P's (9mm, 40, 45) are good choices.
C4
Yet the guy still places 24th at the area six regional USPSA championship...
Practical accuracy seems good enough for him and he even acknowledged the weird inconsistencies with the platform.
Smith needs to fix the issue but i still think it is being set afire with maniacal fervor and hysteria, ie blown out of proportion.
Give Hilton *MY* M&P and a 50 yard classifier...
Then tell me about practical accuracy.
At some point your gun does need to be able to hit the god damned target.
Give Hilton *MY* M&P and a 50 yard classifier...
Then tell me about practical accuracy.
At some point your gun does need to be able to hit the god damned target.
Did you ever shoot any 5rd groups to see what the results were?
C4
Did you ever shoot any 5rd groups to see what the results were?
C4
I am going to this weekend.
I am going to repeat their 10 yard 3 shot groups using Speed Lawman 147 and Speed Gold Dot 124 +P which is what they told me they used and 10y 3 shots is their standard (groups required to be <2"). This is per the head of CS for S&W. I am also gonna shoot a few groups with ASYM ammunition, in specific the 115gr load that is said to have been developed for Julie G to shoot Bianchi cup per AYSM's website. Again, to S&W's standards. Also gonna shoot at 25y with them.
I am going to this weekend.
I am going to repeat their 10 yard 3 shot groups using Speed Lawman 147 and Speed Gold Dot 124 +P which is what they told me they used and 10y 3 shots is their standard (groups required to be <2"). This is per the head of CS for S&W. I am also gonna shoot a few groups with ASYM ammunition, in specific the 115gr load that is said to have been developed for Julie G to shoot Bianchi cup per AYSM's website. Again, to S&W's standards. Also gonna shoot at 25y with them.
Roger that. What I think you will see with 5rd groups is that your gun will shoot much better groups sizes (which is one of the reasons why I do not trust 5rd groups when looking at the problem of a barrel unlocking early or Randomly).
Just so you know JG is NOT running a S&W factory barrel so the special "JG loads" might not do all that well in your gun. :D
C4
Roger that. What I think you will see with 5rd groups is that your gun will shoot much better groups sizes (which is one of the reasons why I do not trust 5rd groups when looking at the problem of a barrel unlocking early or Randomly).
Just so you know JG is NOT running a S&W factory barrel so the special "JG loads" might not do all that well in your gun. :D
C4
Agreed. There is likely only one reason why their standard is 3 shots and not 5 or 10 and it likely has little to do with the $0.30/round and 1 minute per shot.
I prefer to have 50 rounds, benched, when judging a pistol. The M&P I have that shoots 2" groups or less (for those who wanna challenge my abilities read that again) proved this over a few 10 shot groups. More scientific would be letting the gun cool down and using a ransom rest but not having one makes that tough.
JG's barrel, I agree, but I am basing this off of what is advertised. ASYM ammo has an incredible reputation and this load that was in stock happens to be marketed as follows:
This is the exact load used by Team Smith and Wesson Captain Julie Golob to win 2 World Titles at the 2010 Steel Challenge.
This load is purpose built to win the Steel Challenge and NRA Action Pistol/Bianchi Cup. It is loaded with premium VihtaVouri powder, Starline brass, 115 gr. Match Hollowpoint, and match US made primers.
Zero words implied to be from anyone. Face value from manufactures websites.
My intent in using this load is that it should be the absolute best I can buy for this gun. If any load should shoot well it would be this one.
My M&P has been to the factory twice, they refuse to to fix or acknowledge the accuracy issue.
Went from M&P to a G19
My M&P has been to the factory twice, they refuse to to fix or acknowledge the accuracy issue.
Went from M&P to a G19
If it meets their spec there is no issue.
If it meets their spec there is no issue.
Any idea of what those might be? It does seem to be a common complaint...
My intent in using this load is that it should be the absolute best I can buy for this gun. If any load should shoot well it would be this one.
Orion,
You may be chasing unicorns with that one. The load is optimized for JG's gun which features an unknown twist rate. Trying to make that "optimized" load work out of YOUR barrel may not work as well as you would hope.
Just some food for thought before you roll out and unload the pockets on match ammo.
Any idea of what those might be? It does seem to be a common complaint...
They measure it at 15 yards. Pistol does just fine at 15 yards but wont shoot worth shit at 25.
Any idea of what those might be? It does seem to be a common complaint...
3 shots fired at 10 yards, the group must be under 2". This is per the head of CS, explained to me verbally on the phone.
Orion,
You may be chasing unicorns with that one. The load is optimized for JG's gun which features an unknown twist rate. Trying to make that "optimized" load work out of YOUR barrel may not work as well as you would hope.
Just some food for thought before you roll out and unload the pockets on match ammo.
I agree. My intent is to merely shoot what is widely accepted as incredible ammo to demonstrate the maximum accuracy, aside from a ransom rest, this pistol can get.
3 shots fired at 10 yards, the group must be under 2". This is per the head of CS, explained to me verbally on the phone.
I agree. My intent is to merely shoot what is widely accepted as incredible ammo to demonstrate the maximum accuracy, aside from a ransom rest, this pistol can get.
A gun would have to be a serious POS to not be able to pass that mechanically. Unreal.
A gun would have to be a serious POS to not be able to pass that mechanically. Unreal.
My gun in question, when shot from a rest with a laser and good ammo will not shoot a 10 round group under 2". Nor will it shoot a 5 round group under 2". The same ammo, in another M&P will shoot 1.98" at 25 yards.
ETA: What is the correct distance that competitive dart players throw from?
High Altitude
04-27-12, 14:56
It's crazy how inconsistent the M&P9 is and even more crazy that S&W is ignoring it and putting it on their customers.
Hogsgunwild
04-27-12, 15:36
It's funny that I can consistently get slightly better than six inch (unsupported) groups at 25 yards with my Shield but the fullsize 9MM cannot touch that. F'nPOS.
My shipping label should be here today or tomorrow. I can't wait to see what happens.
TacMedic556
04-27-12, 16:43
The officer I mentioned earlier has mentioned accuracy issues with his M&P in .40. He had some trouble qualifying to our pistol standards on several occasions, and he is typically a good shooter. Some of it may have been shooter error, however he has tried a few other pistols with much better results. His M&P is all over the target during our bi-annual qual. The Glock boys rat-hole their targets. This is first hand witnessed by me and not here say or 2nd hand.
In regards to the magazines not holding up, they are being dropped onto a hard deck of a paved range. The M&P mags have suffered quite noticeably. The 1911 mags too have had their issues on this topic, with feed lips being damaged. The Glock mags seem to perform the best at this abuse. Again this is not dropping mags on a grassy range or dirt/gravel where I think you cannot measure effectively the durability of a magazine. These mags are dropped repeatedly during drills, most of the time half full or so, directly onto pavement. Glock mags win here, M&P mags fail here.
This is the exact load used by Team Smith and Wesson Captain Julie Golob to win 2 World Titles at the 2010 Steel Challenge.
This load is purpose built to win the Steel Challenge and NRA Action Pistol/Bianchi Cup. It is loaded with premium VihtaVouri powder, Starline brass, 115 gr. Match Hollowpoint, and match US made primers.
If you want to duplicate this load, I'd use:
115 gr Hornady XTP JHP
1.080" OAL
4.8 grains N330
New Starline brass
Federal Primer
~1,150 fps avg.
If you want to duplicate this load, I'd use:
115 gr Hornady XTP JHP
1.080" OAL
4.8 grains N330
New Starline brass
Federal Primer
~1,150 fps avg.
Or just buy a box...
I wonder how much the twist rate is to blame?
It can't be the only factor in the problem because all of the barrels have the same twist rate. I've recently gotten a used M&P 9mm, it seems pretty accurate so far but I haven't shot it past about 15 yards. I don't think I could shoot a pistol well enough at 25 yards to notice. I did pull some shots but that's because I'm not used to the trigger. The majority of them went into the x ring if I focused. I would like to explore the possibility of an Apex hard sear or dcaek kit.
The other thing I think would be cool would be to put a threaded storm lake barrel in it, do you guys know if the storm lake barrels are known to add any accuracy? Not that I know if mine has the issue but it'd be nice to know if that is something people could look to.
I do kind of wonder if some of the problems people are reporting are because of the barrel twist and trigger combo. I have to admit, I don't care as much for the trigger break compared to a Glock's. If it were just a little bit lighter and crisper I would like it better. Very comfy gun to hold, though. Seems accurate at the distance I would need it at. I'd never shoot someone at 25 yards in self defense since I'm not a police officer.
Hogsgunwild
04-27-12, 23:02
bsem: "I'd never shoot someone at 25 yards in self defense since I'm not a police officer."
I have spent a lot of time shooting at a 300 yard gong with pistols (mostly .44 Magnums, .357s, .40S&Ws and 10MMs among others). I have also had some asshole shoot at me from 500 yards plus when I was not equipped to deal with him. I would be happy to shoot anyone at any distance if I felt that I needed to. Don't think lawyers run your life because they don't.
bsem: "I'd never shoot someone at 25 yards in self defense since I'm not a police officer."
I have spent a lot of time shooting at a 300 yard gong with pistols (mostly .44 Magnums, .357s, .40S&Ws and 10MMs among others). I have also had some asshole shoot at me from 500 yards plus when I was not equipped to deal with him. I would be happy to shoot anyone at any distance if I felt that I needed to. Don't think lawyers run your life because they don't.
Good points. I meant practically, I live in a crowded urban area. If someone is shooting at me from far away I'm leaving/hiding and calling the police. I'm guessing that was in some type of military situation? Glad you're okay.
I'd love to try shooting further, especially with a .44mag, but the closest range to me is only a 50 foot pistol and .22lr range. Someday I'll have the time and money, though....
Hogsgunwild
04-27-12, 23:25
No, it was just some jerk-off in the desert having fun with a scoped rifle.
The cops never came when called. I had a carbine and thought about wasting his truck when I had the chance while leaving the area (I assumed it was his). The truck could of been his dumb-ass buddies and I didn't want to escalate things in this situation although I almost did.
I live in a crowed urban area also but I would have no problem shooting at assholes at any range that I think that I can hit 'em.
Or just buy a box...
Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish....
A gun would have to be a serious POS to not be able to pass that mechanically. Unreal.
I believe Randy Lee stated that S&W does give themsleves a rather generous accuracy standard for the M&P... Frankly I see them doing what Glock has done in the past..never admitting there was a problem, But, at the same time quietly implementing changes.The last thing S&W wants to do is admit there is a problem and have to replace all the barrels on all the 9mm M&P's they've sold..Not only would that cost them financially, But their reputation in the LE community(whom they're trying very hard to cater to) would be shit...
The last thing S&W wants to do is admit there is a problem and have to replace all the barrels on all the 9mm M&P's they've sold..
So the number of people posting here that they have had no problems getting perfectly acceptable groups at 25 yards with their 9mm M&P leads you to conclude the problem is so common S&W should replace all the barrels they ever produced for their 9mm guns?
Would anyone that has actually shot their M&P 9 at 25 yards for groups, and honestly has a M&P 9 that will shoot multiple loads to the same point of impact, with groups under four inches at 25 yards, please raise their hand?
So the number of people posting here that they have had no problems getting perfectly acceptable groups at 25 yards with their 9mm M&P leads you to conclude the problem is so common S&W should replace all the barrels they ever produced for their 9mm guns?
I think if you dig up the "problem with the M&P thread, there's probably a equal number complaining about the inaccuracy of their M&P's. And, let's not forget It's already been proven that there is a problem with how long the barrel/slide stay locked together, and the fact that this accuracy problem is also random,combine that with the oddball twist rate 1/18.75 ( standard twist for 9mm is 1/16) So, yes, replacing ALL of the barrels is the only way to cure the problem once and for all.
My example shot from a bench rest, with factory ammo, (Fed. 115gr) at 25yds shoots about 6 1/2 to 7" high... from 15yds out accuracy falls apart. If that's good enough for you, great. Me? I'm not happy with it so, I moved on..it now sits in my safe, taking up space..I've also got a Mid size .45 while very accurate,(very easy to shoot well offhand at 25yds) it needs a recoil spring assembly replacement and S&W dosen't have any,(I've been trying to get one from them for over 3 weeks) and they don't know when they'll get any in, So, right now I have 2 M&P's down, and I'm not real happy with S&W at this point...
Would anyone that has actually shot their M&P 9 at 25 yards for groups, and honestly has a M&P 9 that will shoot multiple loads to the same point of impact, with groups under four inches at 25 yards, please raise their hand?
Have you actually read through this thread?
I think if you dig up the "problem with the M&P thread, there's probably a equal number complaining about the inaccuracy of their M&P's.
Which is the nature of the 'net that tends to scew actual numbers. People don't tend to post on how happy they are with a thing/post just to say X is giving them no problems.
And, let's not forget It's already been proven that there is a problem with how long the barrel/slide stay locked together,
In a % of M&Ps not terribly large, with actual figures unknown. Again, your statement above would lead a reader to believe it's a universal problem (which then gets passed onto another forum and the "fact" continues...) in most M&P 9mms.
and the fact that this accuracy problem is also random,combine that with the oddball twist rate 1/18.75 ( standard twist for 9mm is 1/16) So, yes, replacing ALL of the barrels is the only way to cure the problem once and for all.
I, and many others, have no problem.
My example shot from a bench rest, with factory ammo, (Fed. 115gr) at 25yds shoots about 6 1/2 to 7" high... from 15yds out accuracy falls apart. If that's good enough for you, great. Me? I'm not happy with it so, I moved on..it now sits in my safe, taking up space..I've also got a Mid size .45 while very accurate, it needs a recoil spring assembly replacement and S&W dosen't have any, and they don't know when they'll get any in, So, right now I have 2 M&P's down, and I'm not real happy with S&W at this point...
Hence, giving people the impression it's the norm, when it aint, and people don't tend to pst when they are perfectly happy with a thing. Sorry to hear about your M&P experience and I hope S&W makes it right for you. I bet various members here would be happy to take those off your hands if the price was right. ;)
sniperfrog
04-28-12, 10:03
My M&P9 is quite accurate with some ICC frangible training ammo. I thought "cool, I got one of the good ones".
Then I tried some Gold Dot and the frustration started. I could not get better than 4" groups at 15 yards. A few shots would be right in there and then a couple flyers that I didn't call would open the group way up. My buddy shooting my gun had the same issue but when shooting his Sig 226 with the same Gold Dot it shot just fine. No point in even trying 25 yards as i'd just be wasting ammo.
I don't think I will bother with S&W since it seems too many have sent their guns back only to hear that it's acceptable by S&W standards. I'm waiting on the Bar-Sto barrel. Yeah, it will cost nearly $400 to get it fitted and what not but I'll lose at least that much if I were to sell off all my M&P gear and switch platforms.
Hogsgunwild
04-28-12, 10:54
It is amazing that S&W's "standard" is so very low for the 9MM fullsize and yet (was it an accident?) the midsize .45 is so exceptionally accurate. Yesterday I held tighter groups at 25 yards with my .45 midsize than I could with my Springfield Pro. I haven't shot my 1911s for many many months so I am sure that part of that was just acclimation. I started with the Pro and was very happy with my groups but then was surprised all over again by how tight the M&P .45 shoots.
I am thinking M4 might be a great place to gather some data. How about each member shoot their M&P 9 at 25 yards, and report in.
To make it fun, I will buy three of Hilton Yam's excellent 9/40 base plates, and for the first three people to post success, I will send them a free base plate. Success being defined as shooting five round groups at 25 yards under four inches, with three different loads, to a point of impact within two inches of each other, witnessed, with photos of the groups posted here.
Hogsgunwild
04-28-12, 11:11
I don't think I will bother with S&W since it seems too many have sent their guns back only to hear that it's acceptable by S&W standards. I'm waiting on the Bar-Sto barrel. Yeah, it will cost nearly $400 to get it fitted and what not but I'll lose at least that much if I were to sell off all my M&P gear and switch platforms.
I hope to receive my shipping label today. I will let everyone know how S&W handles my return. My FS 9MM seems to have progressively become less accurate since I purchased it new. It was never capable of better than 5" or 6" inches at 25 yards and now it's much worse.
How can S&W deem the fullsize gun's standards to be so low when my Shield's 25 yard groups are sub 6", unsupported?
Not my best day at the range, but here's 50 rds of 124 Gr Speer JHP from the M&P 9mm FS (left lower bull - 20 rounds, 3 were off paper to the left slightly) vs. G17 (right lower bull - 30 rounds).
~12" vs. ~4.5".
http://m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=526&pictureid=2668
As stated repeatedly by myself and others, yes.
Will, humor me -- go to the trouble of shooting a five round group at 25 yards, with three different loads, and post pictures. No witness required for you. :)
I will be glad to send you a new 10-8 base plate for your trouble, if your pistol meets that spec I described. Based on my testing, and the results others I know have gotten, I believe that the M&P 9 pistol that can shoot to the standard I described is probably a 1 in 10 pistol. And for those pistols that meet that spec, the problem is accuracy seems to inevitably degrade with round count for the reasons Randy Lee has described to me.
Will, humor me -- go to the trouble of shooting a five round group at 25 yards, with three different loads, and post pictures. No witness required for you. :)
I will be glad to send you a new 10-8 base plate for your trouble, if your pistol meets that spec I described. Based on my testing, and the results others I know have gotten, I believe that the M&P 9 pistol that can shoot to the standard I described is probably a 1 in 10 pistol. And for those pistols that meet that spec, the problem is accuracy seems to inevitably degrade with round count for the reasons Randy Lee has described to me.
Will do my best! Of course, if inevitably degrades, then it may not have the accuracy it did when essentially new, which was the only time I tested it to my satisfaction for accuracy, which was done with Winchester white box (115g I recall) and Speer Gold dot 147g at 25 yards both free standing and bench rest.
But, I'm curious to see what will happen now, but I will say, IDPA, courses, etc, it's more then accurate for my recs, and make holes where I want them, and when not, clearly my fault (happens too often to be honest and I wish I had more range time) so I have no felt compelled to make it an issue. If I was getting some 8-12" groups when shooting for accuracy, I would not be a happy guy.
If you think an accurate M&P FS in 9mm is 1 in 10, and that one will degrade anyway, that's not good and that's Randy et al lane, not mine. In my experience, seeing a ton of them at IDPA, at S&W when spending a few afternoons there shooting as an adjunct, etc, the issue has been over blown via classic 'net effects, but, I could be wrong. :cool:
Hogsgunwild
04-28-12, 18:17
When you do own one that has major accuracy issues (like me), nothing you read seems overblown, even if it is...
When you do own one that has major accuracy issues (like me), nothing you read seems overblown, even if it is...
Like that story ... a economic slowdown is when you know someone who lost their job, a recession is when a relative loses their job, and a depression is when you lose your job. Unfortunately, my M&P 9 pistols have been the shooting equivalent of a depression.
Will, I appreciate your willingness to do this testing. There are enough dialed in folks on M4, that we could do enough testing collectively, to have a data set that is significant. I don't think my suggested requirement of being able to shoot three different loads, four inches or better, to a similar point of impact at 25 yards is all too rigorous, as every Glock, HK and 1911 I own can do that.
Which is the nature of the 'net that tends to scew actual numbers. People don't tend to post on how happy they are with a thing/post just to say X is giving them no problems.
In a % of M&Ps not terribly large, with actual figures unknown. Again, your statement above would lead a reader to believe it's a universal problem (which then gets passed onto another forum and the "fact" continues...) in most M&P 9mms.
I, and many others, have no problem.
Hence, giving people the impression it's the norm, when it aint, and people don't tend to pst when they are perfectly happy with a thing. Sorry to hear about your M&P experience and I hope S&W makes it right for you. I bet various members here would be happy to take those off your hands if the price was right. ;)
I never said it was the norm..I said the accuracy issue is RANDOM..meaning not every one has it..Some do, and some don't, You got lucky..And as far as the unlocking issues are concerned, ask Randy Lee, He's proven it exists, He's probably one of the first to figure it out. it's not something someone made up. just because your pistol(s) don't display this problem, That dosen't mean for one instant it dosen't exist.I'm not unhappy with my midsize .45, it is very accurate, easily capable of out shooting my FS9,It is however annoying that S&W dosen't seem to be able to keep parts in stock,I'm guessing the current election year panic has alot to do with it.So, it'll sit in the safe until S&W can cough one up. The FS9, however is already sold, I sold it this evening, it'll be delievered to it's new owner tommorrow. :dance3:
I never said it was the norm..
Your wording would lead one to believe it is.
I said the accuracy issue is RANDOM..meaning not every one has it..Some do, and some don't, You got lucky..And as far as the unlocking issues are concerned, ask Randy Lee, He's proven it exists, He's probably one of the first to figure it out. it's not something someone made up.
I never claimed it was made up. Randy has forgotten more on the topic in a day then I will ever know on the issue and I trust his info fully. I said in my experience, it's made out to be very common, if not the norm, by the 'net effect.
just because your pistol(s) don't display this problem, That dosen't mean for one instant it dosen't exist.
And just because yours did, does not mean it's as common as one might think if they are reading such threads.
I don't how exactly how common it is, and either do you, but my impression now is, probably more common then I think it is, but there's no objective numbers per say using large sample sizes.
I'm not unhappy with my midsize .45, it is very accurate, easily capable of out shooting my FS9,It is however annoying that S&W dosen't seem to be able to keep parts in stock,I'm guessing the current election year panic has alot to do with it.So, it'll sit in the safe until S&W can cough one up. The FS9, however is already sold, I sold it this evening, it'll be delievered to it's new owner tommorrow. :dance3:
Then it's all good and it's out of your hands. Best of luck on your next purchase! :neo:
Thanks and I understand your pain.
We will be receiving our first trial shipment of over sized barrels from Storm Lake this week. We will be fitting them and if all turns out well, will be offering them.
C4
Assuming that the barrels work to your satisfaction any idea as to price for barrel/fitting and general availability?
Any idea of what those might be? It does seem to be a common complaint...
My guess is that 4" groups and BETTER at 15yds (5rd groups)
C4
It is amazing that S&W's "standard" is so very low for the 9MM fullsize and yet (was it an accident?) the midsize .45 is so exceptionally accurate. Yesterday I held tighter groups at 25 yards with my .45 midsize than I could with my Springfield Pro. I haven't shot my 1911s for many many months so I am sure that part of that was just acclimation. I started with the Pro and was very happy with my groups but then was surprised all over again by how tight the M&P .45 shoots.
It is actually very easy to understand. S&W is after LE contracts. LE contracts typically don't have accuracy standards. They do have reliability standards (which is why the M&P has been beating the GEN 4 Glock in head to head competitions).
The M&P45 was built for a .Mil contract that never happened. In that contract, there WAS an accuracy requirement.
Simple as that.
C4
Assuming that the barrels work to your satisfaction any idea as to price for barrel/fitting and general availability?
Our goal is $200 for a fitted barrel in your gun. Our first shipment of barrels appears in the next 5 days.
Once I am comfortable with my findings, I will order large QTY's of barrels.
C4
It is actually very easy to understand. S&W is after LE contracts. LE contracts typically don't have accuracy standards. They do have reliability standards (which is why the M&P has been beating the GEN 4 Glock in head to head competitions).
The M&P45 was built for a .Mil contract that never happened. In that contract, there WAS an accuracy requirement.
Simple as that.
C4
What's intriguing to me is the accuracy exhibited by my 9c. It's one of the most accurate handguns I own.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
What's intriguing to me is the accuracy exhibited by my 9c. It's one of the most accurate handguns I own.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Compact guns are typically more accurate (example, Shield).
C4
It is actually very easy to understand. S&W is after LE contracts. LE contracts typically don't have accuracy standards. They do have reliability standards (which is why the M&P has been beating the GEN 4 Glock in head to head competitions).
The M&P45 was built for a .Mil contract that never happened. In that contract, there WAS an accuracy requirement.
Simple as that.
C4
Additionally, the majority of them typically use 40 S&W I would imagine.
Although I know some use 9mm, the Sheriffs Office here uses 9mm. They can choose their weapons I think. The city police have M&P 40's.
What's intriguing to me is the accuracy exhibited by my 9c. It's one of the most accurate handguns I own.
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Before I ordered my M&P 45 I rented the 9, 9c, 45 and the 40. The 9c and the 45 were the most accurate in my little trial. I was holding 2" at 15 yards off hand with 9c....but my experience with them is extremely limited.
Back when I shot .40 S&W exclusively, I never had an issue with the M&P's accuracy. The M&P40's, even the M&P40c will easily out shoot the FS and Pro 5" 9mms I've had.
What's intriguing to me is the accuracy exhibited by my 9c. It's one of the most accurate handguns I own.
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From what I've read, the barrel hood dimensions were changed to accomodate the Compact model and keep the barrels consistent between the various sizes, leading to the accuracy issues with the larger M&Ps, mainly.
I would guess that your chances of getting an accurate Compact model are higher.
Originally Posted by C4IGrant
It is actually very easy to understand. S&W is after LE contracts. LE contracts typically don't have accuracy standards. They do have reliability standards (which is why the M&P has been beating the GEN 4 Glock in head to head competitions).
Not true at my Dept. The G22 4th gen beat out the M&P40 for reliablity. The M&P broke down twice, first time was on the first mag. Tied up the gun, rendering it into an impact weapon.
The G22 4th fired 8000 rounds in 2 weeks without cleaning by all kinds of shooters.
People liked the M&P40's ergos and accuracy, but hated the trigger-as well as the breakdowns. So we're staying with Glocks in .40 S&W. Hope we get the option of G23s.
Originally Posted by C4IGrant
It is actually very easy to understand. S&W is after LE contracts. LE contracts typically don't have accuracy standards. They do have reliability standards (which is why the M&P has been beating the GEN 4 Glock in head to head competitions).
Not true at my Dept. The G22 4th gen beat out the M&P40 for reliablity. The M&P broke down twice, first time was on the first mag. Tied up the gun, rendering it into an impact weapon.
The G22 4th fired 8000 rounds in 2 weeks without cleaning by all kinds of shooters.
People liked the M&P40's ergos and accuracy, but hated the trigger-as well as the breakdowns. So we're staying with Glocks in .40 S&W. Hope we get the option of G23s.
Your experience is not the norm (especially when talking about reliability and the Gen 4).
C4
KiloSierra
04-29-12, 22:41
Originally Posted by C4IGrant
It is actually very easy to understand. S&W is after LE contracts. LE contracts typically don't have accuracy standards. They do have reliability standards (which is why the M&P has been beating the GEN 4 Glock in head to head competitions).
Not true at my Dept. The G22 4th gen beat out the M&P40 for reliablity. The M&P broke down twice, first time was on the first mag. Tied up the gun, rendering it into an impact weapon.
The G22 4th fired 8000 rounds in 2 weeks without cleaning by all kinds of shooters.
People liked the M&P40's ergos and accuracy, but hated the trigger-as well as the breakdowns. So we're staying with Glocks in .40 S&W. Hope we get the option of G23s.
I know of a few departments where Glock's failed reliability tests and accuracy test both and yet were still issued because the bean counter's and/or Glock fanboys got to make the final decision on which pistols to buy. I know our 3rd gen Glock 35 were completely shot out and were starting to have parts break regularly and I doubt most of them had much more then 2,000 rounds through them. The gen 4 Glock 22's that were bought to replace them had three out of twenty four arrive that were nonfunctional and I doubt most of the rest have had more then a couple hundred rounds through them in the year and a half we've had them and I've seen a few of them jam from time to time. I shot one from a rest and got six inch groups at fifteen yards. Mine has stayed in my locker unfired since I got it and will stay that way until they get the Glock 21 they're talking about buying to replace them. Might get a M&P 45 then.
Hogsgunwild
04-30-12, 10:09
It is actually very easy to understand. S&W is after LE contracts. LE contracts typically don't have accuracy standards. They do have reliability standards (which is why the M&P has been beating the GEN 4 Glock in head to head competitions).
The M&P45 was built for a .Mil contract that never happened. In that contract, there WAS an accuracy requirement.
Simple as that.
C4
Interesting, thanks. I didn't know that. Makes more sense now.
theblackknight
04-30-12, 18:16
I tried reading thru this one. couldnt do it
I own both a G34 and M&P Long Slide with night sights.
I'd give the nod to the M&P cuz of the ergos and grip angle...just feels more natural to me. I wanna see how well my Apex mods hold up as well too.
gunrunner505
05-02-12, 22:24
I shoot an M&P40 full size and I'll tell you why
IMO the 9mm is not an effective round, again that's just my opinion. Mean no offense to the 9mm crowd so don't shoot me.
The M&P, in my opinion, has better ergonimics, better feeling grip, better trigger and better sights than the Glock.
The Glocks feel very clumsy and chuncky to me. Not well thought out at all. I just don't feel comfortable with them. Certainly don't deserve the rock star status they seem to carry. But that's me.
As far as auto forward, it was my understanding the gun is designed to auto forward when you run home the magazine with authority and with a 45 degree shove. My gun doesn't auto forward easily at all. It did twice during training last month but I was really cooking and aggressive with the mag but most important I recognized it had so I kept on rockin'.
My M&P has been 105% dead reliable since I got it and very accurate. No stoppages or malfunctions of any kind in over 3000 rounds.
It's a more accurate gun than I am a shooter. I'm getting better but the gun is still way better. As long as we're on reliability I noticed something during training. Two guys were running Glocks, I'm sorry I don't remember the model numbers but I think they were 17s. Anyway, during training when things got aggressive I noticed both of them were having problems with the empty mags not dropping out. They both had to take the extra time to manually stirip out the empty mag before they could get a fresh box of cookies in there. To me, that's a big problem. Is this common to Glocks or were these 2 guys just unlucky?
This is one of those questions that has 50 different answers from 50 different folks. Coke/Pepsi. Ford/Chevy.......
Like a bunch of people here have said, it's all on whet you like and are confortable with. The best gun for you is the one that fits your hand, is comfortable to you and, most imortant, the one you shoot well.
Stay safe, train hard.
Sounds like those shooters had old Glock mags from the late '80's or something that weren't "drop free". I haven't seen a Glock mag hang up when dropped for many years and thousands of reloads.
But the M&P steel mags really spit out nicely. It's a fast reloading pistol.
And how a pistol "feels" in your hand is not important to shooting performance so long as you can reach the controls and a few other non-feel attributes exist. Consider this proven every time excellent shooters perform brilliantly with many different types of pistol. Some of which you may think are unshootable. But "feel" is ancient conventional wisdom that never seems to go away.
Littlelebowski
05-03-12, 08:54
I shoot an M&P40 full size and I'll tell you why
IMO the 9mm is not an effective round, again that's just my opinion. Mean no offense to the 9mm crowd so don't shoot me.
You should read the Terminal Ballistics forum. Might change your mind.
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gunrunner505
05-03-12, 09:18
Sounds like those shooters had old Glock mags from the late '80's or something that weren't "drop free". I haven't seen a Glock mag hang up when dropped for many years and thousands of reloads.
But the M&P steel mags really spit out nicely. It's a fast reloading pistol.
And how a pistol "feels" in your hand is not important to shooting performance so long as you can reach the controls and a few other non-feel attributes exist. Consider this proven every time excellent shooters perform brilliantly with many different types of pistol. Some of which you may think are unshootable. But "feel" is ancient conventional wisdom that never seems to go away.
By comfortable and feel I meant you need to be able to operate the gun. if you have smaller hands and you can't reach all the controls effectively on a full size pistol then you may need to go to a compact. you can't shoot it well if you can't hold it properly.
I know about the ballistic tables and such. As I said, it's my preference.
Sounds like those shooters had old Glock mags from the late '80's or something that weren't "drop free". I haven't seen a Glock mag hang up when dropped for many years and thousands of reloads.
But the M&P steel mags really spit out nicely. It's a fast reloading pistol.
And how a pistol "feels" in your hand is not important to shooting performance so long as you can reach the controls and a few other non-feel attributes exist. Consider this proven every time excellent shooters perform brilliantly with many different types of pistol. Some of which you may think are unshootable. But "feel" is ancient conventional wisdom that never seems to go away.
Ive tried most of the name brand pistols, as well as 1911's and the only one that didn't "feel" right, was the Beretta 92. It was a bit large in the grip. Still shot it well though.
Sounds like those shooters had old Glock mags from the late '80's or something that weren't "drop free". I haven't seen a Glock mag hang up when dropped for many years and thousands of reloads.
But the M&P steel mags really spit out nicely. It's a fast reloading pistol.
And how a pistol "feels" in your hand is not important to shooting performance so long as you can reach the controls and a few other non-feel attributes exist. Consider this proven every time excellent shooters perform brilliantly with many different types of pistol. Some of which you may think are unshootable. But "feel" is ancient conventional wisdom that never seems to go away.
Nah, its still pretty common for guys that are running their guns hard. I've been in a class where we were almost having to strip them out due to the sandy environment. Glock tolerances are pretty tight...
gunrunner505
05-03-12, 11:08
I mostly noticed it because the mags on my M&P drop right out no matter how hard I'm running it. Just an observation I was looking for some feed back on. Thanks.
Nah, its still pretty common for guys that are running their guns hard. I've been in a class where we were almost having to strip them out due to the sandy environment. Glock tolerances are pretty tight...
Run them hard? I thought "run hard" meant like shooting drills and reloading for high volumes of rounds weekly through annually, running them hot, dirty, w/o lube? Or does run them hard mean full of dirt/sand etc?
If the latter, I "guess" I get it. Although when I retrieve dirt and sand covered mags I wipe most of it off on my pants leg before reloading it and simply dirty mags haven't manifested this. Not very sandy 'round here though.
I knew I didn't run my ARs hard. But shit, I thought I was running these Glocks pretty hard.
By comfortable and feel I meant you need to be able to operate the gun. if you have smaller hands and you can't reach all the controls effectively on a full size pistol then you may need to go to a compact. you can't shoot it well if you can't hold it properly.
I know about the ballistic tables and such. As I said, it's my preference.
Thanks, I'm tracking. The M&P is VERY forgiving of many sizes of hands.
I mostly noticed it because the mags on my M&P drop right out no matter how hard I'm running it. Just an observation I was looking for some feed back on. Thanks.
They do. You don't want them pointed at your eyes. ;) And "hard" you're refering to with quantities of sand in the mag well?
I'm very curious about this definition as I've apparently missed the fine priint. ;)
gunrunner505
05-03-12, 18:19
It was over 3 days of shooting drills indoors. no dirt or sand sorry. i purposely didn't clean my gun or lube it for 3 days just so see if it would hang up either a mag or the slide. it didn't. im not bashing Glock here, it was just something i noticed that both guys running them were having the samemag release issue.
Run them hard? I thought "run hard" meant like shooting drills and reloading for high volumes of rounds weekly through annually, running them hot, dirty, w/o lube? Or does run them hard mean full of dirt/sand etc?
If the latter, I "guess" I get it. Although when I retrieve dirt and sand covered mags I wipe most of it off on my pants leg before reloading it and simply dirty mags haven't manifested this. Not very sandy 'round here though.
I knew I didn't run my ARs hard. But shit, I thought I was running these Glocks pretty hard.
When I say running them I hard I mean in class environment or training sessions where you are dropping mags on a sandy/dirt deck...
The sand starts to get in the magwell and in mags and the tolerances aren't real forgiving in that part of the gun. It will run fine but it can cause mags to get gritty and effects them dropping free when you are shooting 500-600 rounds a day for 2-3 days.
There are a couple ranges that will leave you pouring sand out of the mags...
The issue actually is what partially spawned the Vickers base plates you see on the market now. ;)
I am currently qualified on both 9mm Glock and M&P45.
I tend to shoot each caliber M&P more accurately and rapidly than the corresponding Glock and thus prefer the M&P.
Glocks are a bit easier to service, but the M&P is not far behind; both are far better than Beretta, Sig, HK, and 1911's in this regard.
M&P45's are generally VERY accurate--nearly as good as a custom 1911 in many cases. M&P40's tend to be as accurate as any other .40 cal service pistol. Most M&P9's are acceptably accurate, including my own, but there are definitely some M&P9's that have issues holding an acceptable group.
I strongly prefer the stock M&P trigger to the stock Glock trigger; likewise I prefer the M&P Apex triggers to customized Glock triggers. Tactile trigger reset is not an issue for me. There is a good interview with Rob Leatham where he discusses trigger reset and its irrelevance when shooting at speed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqqhSSiU_j8.
M&P mags in general work well, but there were some early rust issues (now fixed), as well as some recent mag spring heat treating issues. None of our mags have had any problems. 10-8 base plates are a great addition.
M&P's tend to auto-forward a bit more than Glocks, but I've seen pistols from every major vendor exhibit this issue. I don't worry about this at all, as I shot over 5000 rds through my M&P45 last year without any problems....something I cannot say for a late 2011 3rd gen G19 I have been trying so far in vain to get to run reliably.
For me, both M&P and Glock require some tweaking before I use them:
The M&P ambi safety models I use have the following done:
-- Apex Duty Kit
-- 10-8 magazine base plates
-- Stipple frame and backstrap
-- If I have to use iron sights I don't mind the stock ones, although these days I now prefer an RMR02 RDS with suppressor height BIS.
------------------------------------------
Glocks I carry get the following:
-- Better sights: For irons usually Trijicon HD, Warren, or Ameriglo 3-dot with bright green front and dim yellow back, although recently I've been using a RMR02 with suppressor height BIS.
-- Vickers mag catch
-- Vickers slide release
-- Scherer "slug" butt plug
-- Stipple frame
-- Grip Force Adapters.
-- Glock "-" connector with stock trigger return spring
-- Glock smooth trigger if not OEM installed (typically needs replacement on G19's)
-- Maritime spring cups if any use around water is anticipated
As much as i love the ergos, no G19 sized M&P offering made considering a switch to the M&P platform nothing more than a passing thought.
When I say running them I hard I mean in class environment or training sessions where you are dropping mags on a sandy/dirt deck...
The sand starts to get in the magwell and in mags and the tolerances aren't real forgiving in that part of the gun. It will run fine but it can cause mags to get gritty and effects them dropping free when you are shooting 500-600 rounds a day for 2-3 days.
There are a couple ranges that will leave you pouring sand out of the mags...
The issue actually is what partially spawned the Vickers base plates you see on the market now. ;)
Ah ! I run my Glocks hard too! That's a relief. :D
High Altitude
05-04-12, 13:09
As much as i love the ergos, no G19 sized M&P offering made considering a switch to the M&P platform nothing more than a passing thought.
If S&W would come out with an M&P the size and capacity as the 19, that would seal the deal for A LOT of glock shooters.
The 19 is the absolute best size vs capacity pistol out there. Why S&W didn't build a M&P to go head to head with it is beyond me.
If S&W would come out with an M&P the size and capacity as the 19, that would seal the deal for A LOT of glock shooters.
The 19 is the absolute best size vs capacity pistol out there. Why S&W didn't build a M&P to go head to head with it is beyond me.
I imagine the large numbers of people carrying G17's made them ponder a bit more?
If S&W would come out with an M&P the size and capacity as the 19, that would seal the deal for A LOT of glock shooters.
The 19 is the absolute best size vs capacity pistol out there. Why S&W didn't build a M&P to go head to head with it is beyond me.
I carry a 19 often, and I have repeated the above statement many times myself. But then I finally broke down and got a 26. It honestly makes more sense if it is primarily for ccw, and my understanding is that the M&P compacts are similar in size.
arcticlightfighter
05-04-12, 16:32
If S&W would come out with an M&P the size and capacity as the 19, that would seal the deal for A LOT of glock shooters.
The 19 is the absolute best size vs capacity pistol out there. Why S&W didn't build a M&P to go head to head with it is beyond me.
They did, it is the mid-size .45.
packinaglock
05-04-12, 18:40
If S&W would come out with an M&P the size and capacity as the 19, that would seal the deal for A LOT of glock shooters.
The 19 is the absolute best size vs capacity pistol out there. Why S&W didn't build a M&P to go head to head with it is beyond me.
Exactly!!! I really love the M&P's, but the G19 size & capacity is the best going for me.
They did, it is the mid-size .45.
Do you mean compact?:confused:
Hmm...wish I could say I had Hilton's confidence. I've sent back atleast 5 or 6 Smith's(probably more) including M&Ps to the factory for one issue or another. In 10+ years and 20+ Glocks I've never sent one back to the factory, knock on wood. Currently have three Gen4s in 19x2 and a 26 Had a 17,34 and 21 and not one of 'em had the "internet issues" that are going around.
Sounds like those shooters had old Glock mags from the late '80's or something that weren't "drop free". I haven't seen a Glock mag hang up when dropped for many years and thousands of reloads.
But the M&P steel mags really spit out nicely. It's a fast reloading pistol.
Funny you should say this. I T&E'd a Gen 4 G22 & 23 for our agency, and had trouble with both models dropping empty mags, and even partially loaded mags. But because the majority of officers want Glock that is probably what were going to. What I am most displeased about is the 5 month wait to get them according to Glock.
arcticlightfighter
05-05-12, 21:20
Do you mean compact?:confused:
No actually. If you place the Mid Size .45 over the Glock 19, it is very similar in overall "size" I would imagine that the grip on the compact .45 is close but suprisingly, the slide/grip size is very similar.
I too wish that S&W would introduce a true mid size 9mm as this thread has already stated.
Gary1911A1
05-06-12, 09:49
Funny you should say this. I T&E'd a Gen 4 G22 & 23 for our agency, and had trouble with both models dropping empty mags, and even partially loaded mags. But because the majority of officers want Glock that is probably what were going to. What I am most displeased about is the 5 month wait to get them according to Glock.
I find even the steel lined magazines tend to swell if loaded to full capacity. If you download them by one or two rounds they don't tend to do this and the magazine springs tend to last longer too.
Funny you should say this. I T&E'd a Gen 4 G22 & 23 for our agency, and had trouble with both models dropping empty mags, and even partially loaded mags. But because the majority of officers want Glock that is probably what were going to. What I am most displeased about is the 5 month wait to get them according to Glock.
"Everybody's funny, now I'm funny too" (Thorogood) For so many years since the drop frees I've not seen this discussed as a problem and I've not seen it myself across a couple dozen pistols now and a LOT of reloads so this is all pretty surprising to me.
I will say that the Glock mags are less tolerant of ejecting cleanly if at a lateral angle vs closer to due North/South if you catch my meaning. I assume mostly due to the light weight of the empty plastic mag ie less momentum.
It's been since '10 that I was shooting the M&P Pro I had but IIRC it was more tolerant of being asked to eject sideways.
I find even the steel lined magazines tend to swell if loaded to full capacity. If you download them by one or two rounds they don't tend to do this and the magazine springs tend to last longer too.
Care to elaborate on that?
What caliber magazines?
I have had 5 G19 magazines loaded for over a year now with zero evidence of swelling.
I also have 5 17 round magazines fully loaded with no dimensional changes from a factory, new in wrapper magazine, i calipered it.
The only "wear" on my magazines beyond cosmetic is that on my five primary training magazines, the feed lips have spread a millimeter from use.
M&P's eject magazines cleaner because they also have a little more free room or space in between the walls of the magazine and the walls of the pistol grip.
gunrunner505
05-06-12, 14:16
These 2 guys were having hang ups on an indoor range, no sand or dirt/mud. I would imagine being on an outdoor range would only make it worse.
I have owned Glocks for years and have always had at least one mag with each gun with ejection issues. Not to the point of having to strip the mags out mind you. But sometimes requiring a little shake. Not a biggie for me. The 2 Gen4 guns I T&E'd both had one out of the 3 mags that wouldn't drop free without the shake. I also noticed in one of Kyle Lambs videos several of the guys shooting Glocks had the same issue. I used to sand my mags a bit if I had issues. Other than that I had no issues with either gun or the M&P while firing a case of ammo through each with or w/out a light. Certainly nothing that would make me not recommend either weapon.
Sidewinder6
05-07-12, 16:14
Just scanned this thread and although many of the pro's and con's of the M&P have been touched upon, one that I noticed nobody is mentioning here is the dead trigger or sear flutter problem that will not disappear completely. Now I am given information that the trigger bar should be swapped out with the frequency of recoil springs.
Just scanned this thread and although many of the pro's and con's of the M&P have been touched upon, one that I noticed nobody is mentioning here is the dead trigger or sear flutter problem that will not disappear completely. Now I am given information that the trigger bar should be swapped out with the frequency of recoil springs.
We have not seen a dead trigger in a FACTORY M&P since the change in the sear plunger and sear spring last Summer. So for me, that issue is dead and buried.
C4
Just scanned this thread and although many of the pro's and con's of the M&P have been touched upon, one that I noticed nobody is mentioning here is the dead trigger or sear flutter problem that will not disappear completely. Now I am given information that the trigger bar should be swapped out with the frequency of recoil springs.
Where are you getting this info from? The change to the larger sear plunger and new spring fixed that issue some time ago. I have one fullsize that came from the factory with upgrade and another compact upgraded by Apex, neither one has the failure to reset issue.
gunrunner505
05-07-12, 21:03
Now I am given information that the trigger bar should be swapped out with the frequency of recoil springs.
Speaking of recoil springs, how often should they be swapped out and how often are you guys doing that?
5000 rounds.
As little as 3000 depending on type of ammo fired.
You can run a factory spring indefinitely but after alot of use you're going to excessively batter the frame. I ran a single factory spring for 15000 rounds and by the time i swapped it out it felt like an 11 pound spring. :)
Sidewinder6
05-08-12, 08:29
Yeah I heard that too. Problems is all solved.
Then in the LAST WEEK, I have been at the range with two proud new owners of factory M&P's in 9mm. One had less than 500 rounds through it who had 2 or 3, and the other was within the first three mags fired out of the gun. :suicide2:
The Smith reps making their rounds drumming up business are still acknowledging working on parts issues.
Yeah I heard that too. Problems is all solved.
Then in the LAST WEEK, I have been at the range with two proud new owners of factory M&P's in 9mm. One had less than 500 rounds through it who had 2 or 3, and the other was within the first three mags fired out of the gun. :suicide2:
Hmmm. What sear housing block and plunger were in the guns?
The Smith reps making their rounds drumming up business are still acknowledging working on parts issues.
Where is this? First I have heard S&W mentioning *ANY* issues at all.
5000 rounds.
As little as 3000 depending on type of ammo fired.
Yeah, I need to see to this, myself.
Slightly related, regarding a mental cock-up I had recently. I had an M&P45mid that received some pre-Apex trigger work, which included MA-compliant springs. They're apparrently more robust, or at least these were, rating a swap at 15k.
I sold my 45mid, and somehow managed to convince myself that I had those springs in my 9FS EDC pistol, which I used a recent Virginia Tactical class with Noel Robleto. Nuh-uh; stock springs that I should have swapped out about 6k prior. You can imagine what happened; good thing I'd brought another pistol...
Moral: If one is supposed to swap out parts/springs at a given round-count....DO IT....or you'll end up gaping at the thing like a fish on a riverbank when it breaks at just shy of 12k and totally wrecks your mojo for the rest of the day.
:p
Yeah I heard that too. Problems is all solved.
Then in the LAST WEEK, I have been at the range with two proud new owners of factory M&P's in 9mm. One had less than 500 rounds through it who had 2 or 3, and the other was within the first three mags fired out of the gun. :suicide2:
The Smith reps making their rounds drumming up business are still acknowledging working on parts issues.
Those guns COULD have been old stock or used with the small sear plunger and sear plunger spring.
C4
mike benedict
05-08-12, 09:36
I have never seen a dead trigger in a factory M&P other than one with a PRO sear. Dead triggers with either Pro or Apex sears are not as common as the internet would lead us to believe but I have seen a few. The fix is simple, just install a new sear block with the big sear plunger. It seems to be a 100% fix.
Of my 12 M&Ps I had one pistol (a very early Pro with a forward reset trigger) which would have an occasional dead trigger when I shot weak hand. I have had no additional dead triggers since I rebuilt that pistol with the new sear block and trigger bar.
Sidewinder6
05-08-12, 09:43
That is what I am thinking.
Although in the case of one pistol, I handled the transfer from the factory for the pistol that went 2 mags before experiencing the problem in the third mag.
I have not been involved in diagnosing either of these two pistols other than observe the issue in both.
On the subject of the reps, there are parts durability issues that are yet to disappear. The sear block and plunger is one we are presently discussing that was upgraded to the larger diameter spring. They are still breaking slide locks and I have a broken locking block sitting on my bench.
The guns have great potential but I am putting them in my heart somewhere near the 1911.
gunrunner505
05-08-12, 14:40
The guns have great potential but I am putting them in my heart somewhere near the 1911.
Is that a good thing or not so much?
I have a broken locking block sitting on my bench.
This is a new one to me.
This is a new one to me.
Same.
As i mentioned earlier i had a 4.25 inch gun go 15k rounds on a spring that should have been replaced a LONG time ago with no issues or signs of a broken locking block.
Tons of guys are running these guns in competition with 11 and 13 pound springs with nary an issue.
Conversely, so long as you're staying on top of maintenance, these guns soak up recoil from +P+ rounds no problem.
What are the circumstances under which the blocks are breaking?
# of rounds fired?
Ammunition used?
Parts replacement schedule?
Lastly, Glocks break locking blocks too, it happens. There is a difference between an epidemic problem, a problem and then shit happening...
Sidewinder6
05-08-12, 19:47
Is that a good thing or not so much?
I love the guns. I also love bikini models. They are expensive and require additional maintenance.
I will post pics in the morning of the locking block.
I am having a hard time accepting your experiences as an epidemic as you are implying. Especially after seeing how Glock and others are doing these days.
gunrunner505
05-08-12, 20:34
I love the guns. I also love bikini models. They are expensive and require additional maintenance.
Classic....:D
I just got back from the range trying out the G19 gen3 .vs M&P 9. After one magazine through the M&P I was a bit confused as to why my group was so far right until I looked at the front site - it was slowly sliding out of the dove tail. I got a replacement with a straight front site and continued my evaluation.
The trigger on the Glock is lightyears better than the one on the M&P. It's all in the reset. The Glock has nice felt and audible reset. The M&P has no noticeable sound to the reset and there is two felt bumps before the actual reset; the first bump is bigger and then a very tiny one for the reset. It simply sucks.
I liked the grip (not sure which backstrap was on it) and overall feel of the M&P over the Glock.
There was no difference for me which sight picture was better, I was able to use both well.
I shot the Glock better than the M&P by a small margin and I have no doubt that either gun would serve me well in the accuracy department.
If the M&P didn't have such an F'd up trigger I would not hesitate to buy one over a Glock because the ergonomics are fantastic and I can shoot it. However, I would need an Apex trigger right off the bat. That said, everyone says you need to change out the plastic sights on the Glock so, price wise for upgrades, it's a wash.
The front sight drifting of the M&P is bothersome to me as I have read about this compliant before - people losing their front sights. Thought this was just a Trijicon thing as some of their vials have been falling out on some M&P's but in this case the stock sight was almost off.
As I'm in the market for a new 9mm I have narrowed it down to these two guns and right now I give a slight edge to the Glock as I have not shot a M&P with a trigger job.
the apex tactical solutions stuff is more than amazing and you would definitely change your mind!
gunrunner505
05-08-12, 21:14
All this talk about the M&P trigger got me to thinking. So, I ran down to the basement and did a little dry practice with the 40. Now I'm no expert shot or anything but I gotta tell you, the trigger on my gun feels pretty damn good. Nice break, reset is audible as well as tactile with no gritty feeling or "double bumps" etc. It's a pretty good trigger right out of the box. I'm anxious to compare it to an Apex now...
We have not seen any M&P's with the new large plunger spring exhibit a "dead trigger"; for that matter "dead triggers" were relatively rare even with the older small plunger spring--I saw less than a half-dozen occur over several hundred M&P's.
We've NEVER seen a broken M&P locking block over the past 5 years, despite being around several hundred M&P's--mainly M&P40's and M&P45's...
Sidewinder6
05-09-12, 08:22
Well then, today is your lucky day:
http://i49.tinypic.com/69qss9.jpg
On the left.
From my perspective this is not an epidemic. It is stacking tolerances. What concerns me are the folks who carry these guns every day and are only provided around 100 rounds to fire every year. Not all departments have full time staff dedicated to training or firearms support. And I have seen some horrible advice in some departments who do.
Im just voicing an observation and concern. I have no vested interest in the company. But I do for the folks in Blue.
YMMV
Is that broken and still functional?
Is that broken and still functional?
I am sure that it is. I almost looks to me that someone tried to "pry" it out of a gun and this is when it either cracked or was broken.
C4
Sidewinder6
05-09-12, 09:12
It was functioning. But the block on the right was is the replacement part. You will also notice on the underside of the new block, a dimple was added which is also different from the original part. It required relief on the cooresponding receiver surface to fit properly. The frame was a 2007 model.
The block was not pried. It rose up gently on its own as soon as the pins were removed. Round count was at about >15K.
ETA: This is off a .45. The pistol is very accurate when its in perfect shape.
How does a hardened part like this break when there is never any appreciable vertical force applied?
gunrunner505
05-09-12, 09:56
The replacement part is noticeably larger. Redesign for added strength?
The replacement part is noticeably larger. Redesign for added strength?
I have both the older blocks and the newer ones. There is little difference between them (that I can tell).
C4
I have both the older blocks and the newer ones. There is little difference between them (that I can tell).
C4
Probably has something to do with fitting in the same hole, sliding between the same slide rails, and having the same parts pass through it.
gunrunner505
05-09-12, 10:39
In the picture the block on the right looks like it's longer left to right than the one that's broken. Maybe it's camera angle or my eyes playing tricks.
Sidewinder6
05-09-12, 11:11
The difference size wise is the dimple for the newer one. When you place the part into an older frame, the block sticks up. There was a cooresponding resting flange inside the receiver where the block contacts the frame that required a little relief for the block to fit. And the first time, replacing the pin was a little tight.
As to the old part, casting occasionally produces flaws that are not noticable at first glance. Who knows. But it broke.
The same pistol broke off both tabs on the slide stop 2000 rounds earlier. The gun has almost 18K through it.
Here is another comparison photo of the underside of the locking blocks.
http://i45.tinypic.com/25a8d9z.jpg
So what you are saying is nothing relative to the breakage shown changed.
Still doesn't explain how it had enough of a load to break, even if cracked.
Sidewinder6
05-09-12, 14:48
We're talking about a gun with 18k rounds through it,an unknown maintenance schedule and a single incident. Even if it was a flawed part, this is really immaterial to the M&P line as a whole. Stuff breaks. Certainly not a reason to condemn the entire M&P line.
Uh, the maintenance schedule is known for this gun. Thats how these were discovered. The slide stop broke at 12K, block at 15K, the trigger 17k. Thats just my gun. As to the earlier concern that the dead triggers have not gone away, those pistols were factory new.
I realise I am swimming against the tide. I will return you to your regularly scheduled programming.
Uh, the maintenance schedule is known for this gun. Thats how these were discovered. The slide stop broke at 12K, block at 15K, the trigger 17k. Thats just my gun. As to the earlier concern that the dead triggers have not gone away, those pistols were factory new.
I realise I am swimming against the tide. I will return you to your regularly scheduled programming.
Apologies. I thought this was someone else's gun you were working on.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Uh, the maintenance schedule is known for this gun. Thats how these were discovered. The slide stop broke at 12K, block at 15K, the trigger 17k. Thats just my gun. As to the earlier concern that the dead triggers have not gone away, those pistols were factory new.
I realise I am swimming against the tide. I will return you to your regularly scheduled programming.
Factory new and recent production are two entirely different things.
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