could someone elaborate on backtension?

[sspro2340]

I watched THIS VID (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azb3q8wOrV4&feature=youtu.be) a few days ago and tried it out, but not sure if I understand what I am really doing. Can someone explain it better or elaborate, just something so I have more to think about when I am at the range.

Thanks.

[2theXtreme]

Since no one else has responded I will give it a shot. I am far from an expert on anything but the instructor in the video explains it pretty well. When you draw and point your gun normally you are in a neutral position with your wrist tension. When you turn the gun inward from your normal position and bend your wrist backward (like flexing the outside of your forearm) that is applying back pressure. This helps with finishing with your finger flat across the face of the trigger. Which in turn helps you stay on that line on the target.

How to diagnose if you need to use back tension, I am not 100% sure. Print out those targets from Haley's blog, go to the range and follow the instructors directions and see how it works out for you.

Good Luck!


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[sspro2340]

When you draw and point your gun normally you are in a neutral position with your wrist tension. When you turn the gun inward from your normal position and bend your wrist backward (like flexing the outside of your forearm) that is applying back pressure. This helps with finishing with your finger flat across the face of the trigger. Which in turn helps you stay on that line on the target.


So should I turn the gun to the side by moving it over by using my firing side shoulder then use the wrist to flex it back toward the target?

I feel like I'm not doing it right because then I have to acquire a new sight picture by moving my head. I feel as though I am not bringing the gun to my eye but instead moving my eye to my sights now...

thanks for the input though

[2theXtreme]

You should turn the gun in our hand so it points just to the midline then bend your wrist backward until it is pointing on target again. Just like in the video.


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[Surf]

I am not trying to put any words into Mr. Avery, or Mr. Haley's mouths but I believe this is what is being said.

I have a video on what I call "advanced trigger skills" and I mention the same effect of what is being described by Ron Avery in the motion of the trigger press and at what point the trigger needs to release the hammer or sear in relation to the actual movement of the trigger finger. I go pretty far in depth on the why's as to what may make it happen and how to fix it. Of course Mr. Avery gave a real brief overview of the trigger control issue and no doubt if you had personal instruction with him the topic would be covered in greater detail as opposed to being constrained by a short video.

I will say that I have never trained with Mr. Avery but would love to do so. Having said that, most shooters will have a push or maybe even a pull with their trigger finger. Of course their grip may play a role, but if we focus on just the trigger finger this push or pull is very common, even from a highly skilled shooter especially as combat or operational shooting speeds are attained. As can be seen with Travis H. he has a nice centered group on the slower cadence fire, but as he shoots at operational speeds his groups go to his left on the target as facing the target. So since Travis H. was pushing left at operational speeds, Mr. Avery adjusted his grip alignment with the weapon creating what he calls backtension to help use muscular tension and alignment to help keep the weapon more stable and aligned throughout the trigger press in a right hand shooter that has a left push or perhaps a left hander with a right push. Similar, but a bit different in concept to someone who has a consistent left hand push and they want to drift the sights slightly to bring the POA to the right to shift the impacts. Backtension may be used for a shooter that pulls, but is far less effective. Ideally we would like to help fix the shooter, but trigger control is pretty much the most critical component to accuracy and we can see how even a world class shooter like Travis H. can be affected by the trigger press. Of course all of his shots were excellent at what might be considered normal close contact distance and they are fine tuning things.

[sspro2340]

I have a video on what I call "advanced trigger skills"
I am responsible for half your views on that video ;). - JRYGRIM

I found myself naturally putting torque on my wrist (similar to the way Avery describes) months ago when I was really slinging lead with my glock17, but I felt that I was sort of compensating similarly to how some shooters do when they know they pull left so they aim a few inches right of what they actually want to hit; which i feel is incorrect and so stopped doing it.


Backtension may be used for a shooter that pulls, but is far less effective. Ideally we would like to help fix the shooter,

So would you consider this technique a form of compensating for improper trigger control?



Of course all of his shots were excellent at what might be considered normal close contact distance and they are fine tuning things.

I understand what they were doing in the video, I just don't understand how one replicates this backtension when drawing from the holster?
When I try to do it I have to move my head around to find my sights which is improper, and then I feel like I'm losing my natural point of aim. ???

So is this technique possible to do while maintaining a natural point of aim and correctly bringing the gun up to the eye without having to suddenly torque it then find the sights again?

I don't understand why I am having so many issues just getting the gun aligned properly when using this technique.
Am I possibly just having trouble because I have so many repetitions from drawing and pointing in the same way over and over and now I am trying to slightly change it?
Even when I don't draw, I feel that I have to move my head to find my sights when using backtension so?????

Do I just need to do this another 3000 times in order to get it down correctly? Or should I...

Just invite me to your school already Surf, PLEASE:smile:

[Surf]

I am responsible for half your views on that video ;). - JRYGRIM I always appreciate the support!


I found myself naturally putting torque on my wrist (similar to the way Avery describes) months ago when I was really slinging lead with my glock17, but I felt that I was sort of compensating similarly to how some shooters do when they know they pull left so they aim a few inches right of what they actually want to hit; which i feel is incorrect and so stopped doing it.

So would you consider this technique a form of compensating for improper trigger control? In a nutshell, it may or may not be a fix for correct trigger control. We must ask the question that by adjusting our grip on the weapon is the shooter suffering any negatives that cannot be corrected via simple repetition and reprogramming ourselves or are we actually suffering in our performance from say a mechanical issue in how we manage recoil? Having said that IMO we ideally like to get the shooter to perform the trigger function correctly under any situation, but that is very very difficult to achieve under critical use draws, presentations and engagements. I am not necessarily advocating this type of correction over learning and mastering better trigger manipulation and I don't think Mr. Avery is either, but there are merits here for certain shooters, body types, hand sizing, weapon type etc...



I understand what they were doing in the video, I just don't understand how one replicates this backtension when drawing from the holster?
When I try to do it I have to move my head around to find my sights which is improper, and then I feel like I'm losing my natural point of aim. ???

So is this technique possible to do while maintaining a natural point of aim and correctly bringing the gun up to the eye without having to suddenly torque it then find the sights again?

I don't understand why I am having so many issues just getting the gun aligned properly when using this technique.
Am I possibly just having trouble because I have so many repetitions from drawing and pointing in the same way over and over and now I am trying to slightly change it?
Even when I don't draw, I feel that I have to move my head to find my sights when using backtension so?????

You are hitting on another point that is valid. We would need to learn to assume a new hand placement on our weapon on the draw and our presentation will alter. As for natural point of aim, that is something that we ingrain via repetition. It really isn't natural but a learned positioning of the weapon that becomes ingrained via that repetition. "Natural Point of Aim" can be re-learned if that is what is desired. Again we need to ask are we losing more than we are gaining here?


Do I just need to do this another 3000 times in order to get it down correctly? Or should I...

Just invite me to your school already Surf, PLEASE:smile:Hey Jerry I always enjoy training with anyone interested when I find free time and it is nice to hear of your interest and desire to train with us. :)

However as a training group we are currently only providing training for City, State and Federal LE, plus various military units, within the US. There is availability for training for NATO, or US allied LE and military groups, but nothing really available for civilian consumption at this time. There are projects / contracts being looked at for the potentially near future mostly geared at servicing the military, however there are talks of possibly doing some civilian based projects as a possible joint venture for private or semi private training for civilian based organizations. Of course we are always willing to look over any private training proposals, but time is really the issue right now. If that should change, I will be sure to make announcements via the channel and via our Facebook page. :)

Thanks again for the support!
Surf