View Full Version : 1-4 Variable optic options
I posted this on another forum awhile back and thought I would share it here as well. I will be adding more to this list as I recently got the new Meopta's in stock.
C4
www.GRTactical.com
I have the privilege of having the USO SN-4, Trijicon Accupoint, Horus Talon and the S&B Short Dot in my possession. I have spent some time with each of these optics and have come to some conclusions about which is the best. Here is a three up and three down review of each:
USO SN-4
Up
1. Chevron in circle reticle
2. Glass quality
3. Ranging capability
Down
1. Cost
2. Weight
3. Illumination not visible in full sun
Trijicon Accupoint
Up
1. Cost
2. Triangle reticle
3. Eye Relief
Down
1. Not 30mm
2. No ranging
3. FOV
Horus Talon
Up
1. Cost
2. FOV
3. Ranging reticle
Down
1. Illumination not visible in full sun
2. Reticle very busy
3.
S&B Short Dot
Up
1. FOV
2. Controls (pull out on knobs to turn & release to lock again)
3. Illumination visible in full sun
Down
1. Cost
2. Weight
3. Reticle not visible on 1X (not necessarily bad)
Only the Accupoint and S&B have visible illumintation in full sun. This gives them a big advantage IMHO. The Talon is just as good as SN-4 for almost half the price. The Accupoint still remains the best bang for the buck.
The S&B is now my new favorite. The first 6 postions on the illumination dial are for NV. Position 7 gives you a visible dot on a cloudy day or indoors. Postion 8-11 are visible in full sun. The great thing about the illumination dial is that you don't have to go back to 0 to turn the dot off. Just go between a number and the dot shuts off!
On 1X the reticle really isn't all the visible. I at first found this to be a negative, but then began to think about it. If your running on 1X your most likely in a CQB environment and would be using the illuminated dot. The fact that you don't have the black reticle cluttering up the glass is a good thing IMHO. In 2-4X the reticle is precise and useable. The windage and elevation knobs feel precise and I like that you pull them up and then turn to make adjustments. This does away with the need to have caps over them (smart).
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/1-4%20optics/1-4%20optics.JPG
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/1-4%20optics/1-4%20optics1.JPG
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/1-4%20optics/1-4%20optics%20top%20view.JPG
S&B on 1X
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/1-4%20optics/SB%201X.JPG
S&B on 1X with illumination
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/1-4%20optics/SB%201X%20illum%20dot.JPG
S&B on 4X with illumination
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/1-4%20optics/SB%204X%20illum%20dot.JPG
Erick Gelhaus
06-09-06, 18:19
Grant-
While I haven't had experience with either the Horus or the Trijicon offering, I used both the USO and S+B models overseas.
I could add an adverse issue or two with the USO but you have defined the pros and cons on these.
I do like the S+B.
Grant-
While I haven't had experience with either the Horus or the Trijicon offering, I used both the USO and S+B models overseas.
I could add an adverse issue or two with the USO but you have defined the pros and cons on these.
I do like the S+B.
I have as well found an issue with the SN-4. I broke mine. :mad:
C4
Good post Grant, I think these optics are only starting to become more popular. Instead of explaining things to people over and over, I'll just refer them to this thread. I've got a feeling this thread will continue to grow with info.
More pictures of people setups, along with their own personal observations will make this thread even better. I'll have to dig up some pictures of my current Accupoint setup.
Good post Grant, I think these optics are only starting to become more popular. Instead of explaining things to people over and over, I'll just refer them to this thread. I've got a feeling this thread will continue to grow with info.
More pictures of people setups, along with their own personal observations will make this thread even better. I'll have to dig up some pictures of my current Accupoint setup.
Thanks for the feedback. I personally love 1-4 variable optics and think they are the do all optic.
C4
Here is a review by Larry Vickers on the S&B Short Dot: http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=tacticalgear&Number=4435&Searchpage=1&Main=4435&Words=schmidt+bender&topic=&Search=true#Post4435
C4
Does anybody have any info on the new Nightforce 1-4x? Personally I'm a big fan of the Short Dot, but it is pricey to say the least. After reading a few threads on other forums guys seem to be making a big deal about the Nightforce being a "True" 1x optic. What exact difference is this going to make? I know the S&B is 1.1x and it never bothered me in the least. Hell, to be honest I could not tell the difference. Is this "True 1x" talk just Internet noise?
Does anybody have any info on the new Nightforce 1-4x? Personally I'm a big fan of the Short Dot, but it is pricey to say the least. After reading a few threads on other forums guys seem to be making a big deal about the Nightforce being a "True" 1x optic. What exact difference is this going to make? I know the S&B is 1.1x and it never bothered me in the least. Hell, to be honest I could not tell the difference. Is this "True 1x" talk just Internet noise?
Pics and short review of the Nightforce 1-4x can be found here:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=28017&an=0&page=0#28017
Grant
Awesome info, this thread should be a sticky......Anyway to make that happen?
Semper Fi
Jeff
Awesome info, this thread should be a sticky......Anyway to make that happen?[/b]
Semper Fi
Jeff
Consider it done.
I just zeroed my TR21R on my carbine today and I have to say that the adjustment knobs on the Accupoint made it the easiest scope I've ever dialed in. I can't wait to use it beyond 25yds. I like the reticle even more than I thought I would as well.
Triad Tactical
08-22-06, 21:24
I have a NF 1x4 sitting on the bench waiting on an upper from Grant. I will be taking it to WV for Pat's 5 day class. AAR to follow.
I have a NF 1x4 sitting on the bench waiting on an upper from Grant. I will be taking it to WV for Pat's 5 day class. AAR to follow.
Thanks Steve, I look forward to reading your opinion on the NF.
Derek_Connor
08-30-06, 09:58
We can start another thread if neccesary, I have heard some conversations NF, that they will be doing a "free" upgrade to the 1-4 scopes allowing the users to the lit recticle in full daylight?
Anyone else heard of this?
I too am very interested in the 1-4x24 NXS. I heard on another forum that they were going to increase the FC-2 reticle brightness to what was described as "Aimpoint bright".
I spoke with a rep at Night Force today and he said that he had not heard anything regarding an illumination mod although he said that he was not in R&D. His statement was that the illumination was primarily designed for "dawn and dusk" shooting.
Take it for what it's worth...
I too am very interested in the 1-4x24 NXS. I heard on another forum that they were going to increase the FC-2 reticle brightness to what was described as "Aimpoint bright".
I spoke with a rep at Night Force today and he said that he had not heard anything regarding an illumination mod although he said that he was not in R&D. His statement was that the illumination was primarily designed for "dawn and dusk" shooting.
Take it for what it's worth...
I just got one of these in. I will be mounting it up shortly and will give a review.
C4
Well I went out today with some buddies just back from Afghan (mil). My Short Dot's being eslewhere (with my camera conviently) I picked up a Leupold 1.5-5 MIV MR/T Illuminate SPR reticle -- and also got a chance to play with the NF 1-4.
Neither are Short Dot's IMHO (albiet the Leupold is not a 1-4 anyway). I was going to try the Leupy on a C8 uppered RO921HB -- but my trustly (and last piece of ARMS kit) the old #2 decied to shit the bed and broke at the screw that goes thru the carry handle ( I was going to go on an hige ARMS trirade - but this one is over 10 years old and suffered thru a bunch of stuff so I will let this one slide).
Next week I will have all on hand so I can give a decent reivew of the pro's and con's
Well I went out today with some buddies just back from Afghan (mil). My Short Dot's being eslewhere (with my camera conviently) I picked up a Leupold 1.5-5 MIV MR/T Illuminate SPR reticle -- and also got a chance to play with the NF 1-4.
Neither are Short Dot's IMHO (albiet the Leupold is not a 1-4 anyway). I was going to try the Leupy on a C8 uppered RO921HB -- but my trustly (and last piece of ARMS kit) the old #2 decied to shit the bed and broke at the screw that goes thru the carry handle ( I was going to go on an hige ARMS trirade - but this one is over 10 years old and suffered thru a bunch of stuff so I will let this one slide).
Next week I will have all on hand so I can give a decent reivew of the pro's and con's
An ARMS product broke??? How can this be??? :D
C4
Any pics of the NXS yet? Can you get pictures of the reticles and post them as well?
Any pics of the NXS yet? Can you get pictures of the reticles and post them as well?
Anything for you Marc!
C4
Seemed like a good place to post this!
Finally got to do some varied shooting with my NSX 1-4X with FC-2 reticle on a new 6920 upper at a shoot this last weekend. (Thanks Chen!) I shot over 500rds from 5-50yds on paper and steel, moving, prone, obstacle course around cover from strong and weak side.
Some impressions:
- 1x works great! No eye relief issues with my nose to charging handle mount, no problems coming up from low ready from 5-50 yds. Almost as good as an Aimpoint.
- Black unlit reticle (FC-2) works fine in daylight, large "wings" really help to center/sight the target even if it is dark colored.
- 4x eye relief can be tricky to find when dropping quickly into prone. Or maybe just need more practice...
- SEB/SBU prone works fine at 1x. 4x has above issues.
- REALLY helps to close one eye when at 4x, with sweat and movement etc, I got some double images when trying to keep both eyes open. Not really an issue at 1x.
- Reticle was fine at 1x for a 6" plate at 50yds.
- As in my old post with reticle pics, the glass is super clear with great contrast. Never had a problem with target ID.
- Aimpoint still rules for Minute of @$$&*!# shooting at 50y and maybe farther. Just so easy to use... But 4x is always better if you need target ID or more precision.
I still need to do more low light and indoor stuff with it, but at 1x I don't really forsee any major issues. With a white light source you don't even need the scope illumination.
So overall I am pretty happy with the glass so far. It is a compromise over an Aimpoint because of the eye relief, but you get magnification as well when you need it. And it is much more versatile than an ACOG with the 1x capability.
Any questions, opinions, or recommendations welcome!
Dennis.
Seemed like a good place to post this!
Finally got to do some varied shooting with my NSX 1-4X with FC-2 reticle on a new 6920 upper at a shoot this last weekend. (Thanks Chen!) I shot over 500rds from 5-50yds on paper and steel, moving, prone, obstacle course around cover from strong and weak side.
Some impressions:
- 1x works great! No eye relief issues with my nose to charging handle mount, no problems coming up from low ready from 5-50 yds. Almost as good as an Aimpoint.
- Black unlit reticle (FC-2) works fine in daylight, large "wings" really help to center/sight the target even if it is dark colored.
- 4x eye relief can be tricky to find when dropping quickly into prone. Or maybe just need more practice...
- SEB/SBU prone works fine at 1x. 4x has above issues.
- REALLY helps to close one eye when at 4x, with sweat and movement etc, I got some double images when trying to keep both eyes open. Not really an issue at 1x.
- Reticle was fine at 1x for a 6" plate at 50yds.
- As in my old post with reticle pics, the glass is super clear with great contrast. Never had a problem with target ID.
- Aimpoint still rules for Minute of @$$&*!# shooting at 50y and maybe farther. Just so easy to use... But 4x is always better if you need target ID or more precision.
I still need to do more low light and indoor stuff with it, but at 1x I don't really forsee any major issues. With a white light source you don't even need the scope illumination.
So overall I am pretty happy with the glass so far. It is a compromise over an Aimpoint because of the eye relief, but you get magnification as well when you need it. And it is much more versatile than an ACOG with the 1x capability.
Any questions, opinions, or recommendations welcome!
Dennis.
Great review Dennis, thanks for taking the time to post it.
I really need to check out one of the new Nightforce's.
I've been meaning to write a review of the NXS 1-4x, but never got around to it. Might as well post a few thoughts here.
I've been using the scope since May. I quickly forgot about my Aimpoints and ACOGs.
The magnification ring on mine is very stiff, and while the ring is knurled, traction is merely adequate. I am not a fan of the rubber lens caps that come with the scope; aftermarket ones are necessary. The battery is located within the illumination knob and is accessed by simply unscrewing the cap. Windage and elevation clicks are acceptable, though not as pronounced as I would like.
I feel like I have a fairly consistent cheekweld (no problems with TA31F), so I have not had any problems with the eye relief, even in asymmetrical positions. I have not felt the need to adjust the focus from the factory setting.
The size of the view (not the field of view) is nice, but not as large as a 4x ACOG. After using the NXS, it would be difficult to go back to using a Compact ACOG. At pistol distances, magnification on the 1x setting is fairly obvious. At first, I thought that it was a true 1x at farther distances, but upon further scrutiny, there appears to still be a slight trace of magnification. My guess is that it is 1.1x or below -- I can't recall exactly what the Short Dot looked like. Anyways, this is purely academic, being of interest only to people on the internet. At speed, it feels exactly like 1x.
My scope has the FC-2 reticle and according to Nightforce, the dot is 2 MOA at 4x. On 1x, the ring and dot are large and thick, which makes it very fast under 15 yards. Beyond that however, the size of the reticle is a bit unwieldy and slows surgical shooting. Detail is obscured and at long distances, aiming using the tiny view between the ring and dot is no fun. In fact, at 50 yards, I feel like I have to bump up to 2x if I want to be able to call all of my shots. Whereas, with an Aimpoint, I feel as though I can comfortably shoot to the limits of my vision. The horizontal lines of the FC-2 do not interfere or add clutter. I do not recall ever noticing them while shooting.
Regarding daytime illumination, the unlit reticle is fine most of the time. However, scanning some deciduous foliage will quickly reveal why illumination is desired. On the max setting, the reticle is maroon in daylight, which is actually quite useable, but will quickly drain the battery. At night, note that the illumination is powerful enough to overcome a 9V weaponlight, so it's not like using an ACOG or iron sights. I would hazard a guess that it is very similar to using an EOTech in low light.
Battery life is short. The scope (if function tested before shipping) was delivered DOA, having been left on the max setting. Twice in one month, I forgot to turn off the scope on a high setting. The battery was dead by the next time I wanted to shoot.
Just one small issue. The magnification ring tends to drift slightly during fire. After 250 rounds, it will have shifted 3-4mm. It looks like the tension of the ring might be adjustable, but the manual doesn't mention anything about it.
Until I try out a Short Dot II, my ideal variable optic is simply an NXS 1-4x with daytime illumination.
Good review, Vinh. Thanks for the info. BTW, I think that review is about 12x as many words as I've ever heard you speak in person... ;)
- Bill
Hardgear, LLC
09-21-06, 07:14
Not trying to go OT so let me know if I am. For folks on a budget, how does the MeOpta K Dot compare?
Bomber
Robb Jensen
09-21-06, 07:42
Not trying to go OT so let me know if I am. For folks on a budget, how does the MeOpta K Dot compare?
Bomber
MeOptas are very nice, Phil Stader will be shooting one next year in 3 gun. This year he used a Leupold CQ/T 1-3x and an MR/T 1.5-5x.
Not trying to go OT so let me know if I am. For folks on a budget, how does the MeOpta K Dot compare?
Bomber
I spent some time with one of these. Glass is great, but the reticle is so so.
IMHO, the best "working mans" 1-4 variable is the Trijicon TR21 (at well under $600).
C4
Hardgear, LLC
09-21-06, 09:37
Grant,
Can the T21 be used with both eyes open? The FOV is realatively narrow, would you consider that an issue?
I really want to get a 1 x 4 scope for my personal use as well as one to offer in my store. Based upon my market, I need to offer something affordable.
The T21 is interesting but so is the MeOpta......dam there isn't any easy decisions.
Bomber
Grant,
Can the T21 be used with both eyes open? The FOV is realatively narrow, would you consider that an issue?
I really want to get a 1 x 4 scope for my personal use as well as one to offer in my store. Based upon my market, I need to offer something affordable.
The T21 is interesting but so is the MeOpta......dam there isn't any easy decisions.
Bomber
Yes, they can be used with both eyes open (all 1-4's can IMHO). I have never noticed an issue with FOV. I also know that Naval EOD has been running the TR21 for some time in a LT SPR-EER mount.
I like the TR21 over the Meopta simply because of cost.
This years SS should bring out a new version of the TR21 that is more geared towards Combat applications.
C4
Grant-
Just recently I got two friends into ARs and they wanted low power scopes. We bought three Bushnell 1.5-4.5x32s and rings. The scopes are nice but we need taller rings or new mounts. I'm thinking about just sending the scope back and
selling my Eotech 512 on a Larue mount, a NIB TD VFG, a Surefire M3 combatlight and my new CTR Stock off in TOS's EE just to scrape some cash together so I can get an accupoint.
What's your opinion on this move?
I should also say I really liked the TA01 I had awhile back and I think I'd really like a TA31F...
You guys are burning a hole in my wallet.....bastards. :D
I spent some time with one of these. Glass is great, but the reticle is so so.
IMHO, the best "working mans" 1-4 variable is the Trijicon TR21 (at well under $600).
C4
I was next in line for the Meopta Grant had. It really is as nice as people say it is. Very clear glass, nice set-up for turning on the power. In the end however I had to go back to my TR-21, not because of the Meopta, but because of my eyes. I'm left eye dominant, right hand shooter, some optics work well with both eyes open anyways (Tr-21, Eotech, Aimpoint, Acog), but some don't. The Meopta didn't.
Still a great scope though.
Grant-
Just recently I got two friends into ARs and they wanted low power scopes. We bought three Bushnell 1.5-4.5x32s and rings. The scopes are nice but we need taller rings or new mounts. I'm thinking about just sending the scope back and
selling my Eotech 512 on a Larue mount, a NIB TD VFG, a Surefire M3 combatlight and my new CTR Stock off in TOS's EE just to scrape some cash together so I can get an accupoint.
What's your opinion on this move?
I should also say I really liked the TA01 I had awhile back and I think I'd really like a TA31F...
The TR21's are nice for the money, but I would wait and see what Trijicon shows us at the 2007 SS. Some changes are in store for the TR21 I think.
C4
Grant, can you get pictures of the reticles and post them in this thread? I'm going to have to decide what to put on my Colt LE6920 pretty soon :D
The Meopta Meostar K dot is my next purchase..been seeing a lot of good feedbacks here and on TOS.:)
will post pics when I get it.
sniperfrog
12-13-06, 12:59
Has anyone tried the Burris eurodiamond 1-4x with the illuminated dot?
Has anyone tried the Burris eurodiamond 1-4x with the illuminated dot?
This is the first I've heard of it, but it does look interesting.
http://www.burrisoptics.com/eurodiamond.html
I have been running a BD 6-24 on a varmint rig for years. They are excellent scopes with good glass.
C4
Alpha Sierra
12-16-06, 10:08
I have been running a BD 6-24 on a varmint rig for years. They are excellent scopes with good glass.
C4
+1
My Fullfiled II is fully the equal of a Leupold VX III.
where are they made ? it says american construction on the website but I doubt it ?
sniperfrog
12-16-06, 20:13
I think the materials like the glass are made in Japan, which is where Leupolds is too. I have seen mixed reviews on Burris on another websight so I thought I'd check here.
Alpha Sierra
12-16-06, 22:49
Mine says Made in the USA.
Japanese glass? I would hope so. They make some of the best lenses in the world, bar none.
I've been a long time lurker here and finally decided to register. I'm interested in getting a 1-4 variable for my new upper that I just had built. I think it's pretty universally agreed that the S&B Short Dot is THE best overall but what would people consider the second or third best if money weren't the only factor? I currently am considering the Nightforce NXS 1-4, the Horus Talon 1-4, or the Trijicon Accupoint if the combat reticle is released soon. I would consider the Meopta K-Dot but I really don't care for the reticle personally, but I've admittedly only seen the one reticle option so far.
My only concern are that the Nightforce doesn't have a zero stop and isn't daytime visible which also would apply to the Horus Talon I guess as well. The Accupoint seems to offer most of what I need but I don't know how the glass quality compares to the others. Any suggestions and insight are appreciated. I really am trying to avoid spending upwards of $2K but want something I will be really happy with and not feel I have to upgrade in the long run.
If it matters my upper specs are -
16" Noveske C/L Medium Contour
12" Larue Handrail
LMT BCG
PRi Gas Buster
Troy BUIS
Vortex FH
*I still have to do my lower and stuff but I have a Geiselle Trigger awaiting that too. :D
I've been a long time lurker here and finally decided to register. I'm interested in getting a 1-4 variable for my new upper that I just had built. I think it's pretty universally agreed that the S&B Short Dot is THE best overall but what would people consider the second or third best if money weren't the only factor? I currently am considering the Nightforce NXS 1-4, the Horus Talon 1-4, or the Trijicon Accupoint if the combat reticle is released soon. I would consider the Meopta K-Dot but I really don't care for the reticle personally, but I've admittedly only seen the one reticle option so far.
My only concern are that the Nightforce doesn't have a zero stop and isn't daytime visible which also would apply to the Horus Talon I guess as well. The Accupoint seems to offer most of what I need but I don't know how the glass quality compares to the others. Any suggestions and insight are appreciated. I really am trying to avoid spending upwards of $2K but want something I will be really happy with and not feel I have to upgrade in the long run.
If it matters my upper specs are -
16" Noveske C/L Medium Contour
12" Larue Handrail
LMT BCG
PRi Gas Buster
Troy BUIS
Vortex FH
*I still have to do my lower and stuff but I have a Geiselle Trigger awaiting that too. :D
Anyway you slice it, the TR21 is hard to beat, followed by the Talon and the NF. I would wait and see what Trijicon shows us at the SS.
C4
I've been thinking about waiting to see what is coming along but I was just looking for opinions because no one seems to define what can be considered the next best offering after the Short Dot Price aside. I could technically save up for the S&B but if there was a less expensive alternative then I would take that route. I really like the concept of the Horus reticle, I hear alot about the NF glass quality, and everyone refers to the Accupoint as the best value in variable optics.
I realize they will all have some tradeoffs but if they were all priced equally would you still recommend them in that order?
1. Accupoint
2. Talon
3. NF
I've been thinking about waiting to see what is coming along but I was just looking for opinions because no one seems to define what can be considered the next best offering after the Short Dot Price aside. I could technically save up for the S&B but if there was a less expensive alternative then I would take that route. I really like the concept of the Horus reticle, I hear alot about the NF glass quality, and everyone refers to the Accupoint as the best value in variable optics.
I realize they will all have some tradeoffs but if they were all priced equally would you still recommend them in that order?
1. Accupoint
2. Talon
3. NF
That is a hard one. If they were all the same price (like $1,100) then the NF would most likely get the choice.
The Accupoint is longer than the others, but has excellent light transmission and is almost a steal! I would wait till the SS and see what shows up.
C4
paulosantos
01-02-07, 18:18
I've been a long time lurker here and finally decided to register. I'm interested in getting a 1-4 variable for my new upper that I just had built. I think it's pretty universally agreed that the S&B Short Dot is THE best overall but what would people consider the second or third best if money weren't the only factor? I currently am considering the Nightforce NXS 1-4, the Horus Talon 1-4, or the Trijicon Accupoint if the combat reticle is released soon. I would consider the Meopta K-Dot but I really don't care for the reticle personally, but I've admittedly only seen the one reticle option so far.
My only concern are that the Nightforce doesn't have a zero stop and isn't daytime visible which also would apply to the Horus Talon I guess as well. The Accupoint seems to offer most of what I need but I don't know how the glass quality compares to the others. Any suggestions and insight are appreciated. I really am trying to avoid spending upwards of $2K but want something I will be really happy with and not feel I have to upgrade in the long run.
If it matters my upper specs are -
16" Noveske C/L Medium Contour
12" Larue Handrail
LMT BCG
PRi Gas Buster
Troy BUIS
Vortex FH
*I still have to do my lower and stuff but I have a Geiselle Trigger awaiting that too. :D
What are you going to be using your rifle for? Do you like to use the reticle for BDC (Horus) or do you like to use the turrets for BDC (Nightforce)? Do you need a daytime visible reticle (Trijicon)? The only one that has all three features is the S&B, but I like to use the reticle for BDC so I went the Horus route and love it.
What are you going to be using your rifle for? Do you like to use the reticle for BDC (Horus) or do you like to use the turrets for BDC (Nightforce)? Do you need a daytime visible reticle (Trijicon)? The only one that has all three features is the S&B, but I like to use the reticle for BDC so I went the Horus route and love it.
This is my personal AR and will be used most for range shooting and home defense if it came down to it. The range that I normally go to only goes to about 250 or 300 yds I think. I forget because mostly use the pistol range. As far as reticle choices I really like the concept of the Talon but I can't find one in my area to look at. The Accupoint I have looked at and it was pretty nice and I've seen plenty of pictures of the Nightforce on the internet and the view through that had better clarity than the digital camera that took the picture. I'm still open as to which would be the next best for me after the Short Dot but I'm really am trying to convince myself to not spend the $2K if I feel I don't have to.
paulosantos
01-03-07, 18:45
This is my personal AR and will be used most for range shooting and home defense if it came down to it. The range that I normally go to only goes to about 250 or 300 yds I think. I forget because mostly use the pistol range. As far as reticle choices I really like the concept of the Talon but I can't find one in my area to look at. The Accupoint I have looked at and it was pretty nice and I've seen plenty of pictures of the Nightforce on the internet and the view through that had better clarity than the digital camera that took the picture. I'm still open as to which would be the next best for me after the Short Dot but I'm really am trying to convince myself to not spend the $2K if I feel I don't have to.
I wish you could see the Talon. I really like the whole Horus Concept. It is not as busy as some people think it is, especially if you learn to look through the reticle.
If you are going to be using it more for the range and less for Home defense, I'd check out the Talon with the new H-47 reticle, which is coming out in February. It doesn't have the dot in the center, it has a cross and it is more for precision, while the H-48 is a more multi-purpose reticle. The range I belong to only goes out to 300 yards so I zero my Talon at 100 yards, this way all the holdovers are below the dot. I just wish I could test it out to 600 yards.
I'm left eye dominant, right hand shooter, some optics work well with both eyes open anyways (Tr-21, Eotech, Aimpoint, Acog), but some don't. The Meopta didn't.
Still a great scope though.
Thank you!
I have been waiting to pull the trigger on a 1-4x because I have the same dominance issue and I refuse to shoot a rifle left handed as my dominant side. I do shoot my pistols lefty though (both eyes open works great).
I'm gonna be scouring the EE for used tr21s after SHOT....:D
And if I like it, I'll probably pick up one of the new ones as well and move the old one to my truck gun.
Grant, I emailed Trijicon and the CS guy told me they didn't have any new/revised Accupoints coming out.
Maybe he just didn't want to tell me.
Grant, I emailed Trijicon and the CS guy told me they didn't have any new/revised Accupoints coming out.
Maybe he just didn't want to tell me.
Interesting. I am looking at the 2007 distr. and didn't see any mention of them, but there are a couple of new products in there that I have NEVER heard of! Should be an interesting SS.
C4
Alpha Sierra
01-04-07, 19:24
I just wish I could test it out to 600 yards.
Send it to me and I will do that and post an AAR. :D
Grant,
Any estimates on when Trijicon will release the new/ upgraded Accupoint? They weren't saying much at SHOT 07 about it, and I didn't feel like sitting there for an hour trying to pry info out of them.
Back in the mid 1990s I started using a Leupold Vari-X II 1-4X20mm for my non-military, non-LEO shooting needs (mostly 3-gun matches). It only has a duplex reticle, has no illumination or dot, and only cost about $225 (then). On the other hand, it helped me see a lot better and helped me hit a lot of targets more accurately and quickly than I might have otherwise. It also never broke or lost its zero.
The only reason I use red dots now is because I almost never get to shoot past 100 yards. Offhand, I kept the magnification at 1X for 100 yards and less on the Leupold, otherwise the "wobble" was magnified too much. The fine crosshairs were great for hitting stuff at 100.
Grant,
Any estimates on when Trijicon will release the new/ upgraded Accupoint? They weren't saying much at SHOT 07 about it, and I didn't feel like sitting there for an hour trying to pry info out of them.
I am also very interested. I want to pull the trigger on a TR21, but I know as soon as I do Trijicon will release the new version the next week.
I'm sure Trijicon is apt to spill info to dealers more so than an average joe like me.
Robb Jensen
01-27-07, 20:40
I've played with the current Trijicon Accu-point and shot with one on another guys rifle didn't like it much.
It's cool that it's a true 1x scope but what I disliked about it was that if I moved my head a tiny bit I could see distortion around the edges of the lenses when at 1x is wasn't too bad. My Leupold 1.5-5x doesn't do that nor does the MeOpta. I'm sure the S&B, Horus & Nightforce don't either.
I've played with the current Trijicon Accu-point and shot with one on another guys rifle didn't like it much.
It's cool that it's a true 1x scope but what I disliked about it was that if I moved my head a tiny bit I could see distortion around the edges of the lenses when at 1x is wasn't bad but at full magnification it's really apparent. My Leupold 1.5-5x doesn't do that nor does the MeOpta. I'm sure the S&B, Horus & Nightforce don't either.
Current? 1x?
Is this the new .mil version?
My TR21 is a 1.25 low mag and none of the distortion on the edges you are talking about.
I know it's not a Short Dot clone... but the Elcan Specter DR really should be compared against these, even though it's not truly a variable but a selectable fixed 1x/4x...
I know, I drink the Elcan kool-aide. lol
I know it's not a Short Dot clone... but the Elcan Specter DR really should be compared against these, even though it's not truly a variable but a selectable fixed 1x/4x...
I know, I drink the Elcan kool-aide. lol
Already have (owned one). It has many issues IMHO. I like the concept and hope that someday they get it right.
C4
Robb Jensen
03-28-07, 07:05
Current? 1x?
Is this the new .mil version?
My TR21 is a 1.25 low mag and none of the distortion on the edges you are talking about.
No, you are correct it was a 1.25x, it had a lot of distortion at 1.25x but if you adjusted it to 1.5-1.75x it went away. I much prefer the clearer distortion free wider FOV of Leupold, MeOpta and S&B scopes.
Already have (owned one). It has many issues IMHO. I like the concept and hope that someday they get it right.
I'm curious, what issues did you have with it?
The only potential issue I have a problem with is the mount wearing to the point of not being able to hold correctly as some people have with the original Elcan design. I don't care about the poorly implemented NOD compatibility. The weight is not an issue for me, but the highly convex ocular reflects too much when transitioning from a lit area to a darker area, and I wish the unit sat just a little higher (still hoping for the possible LT replacement mount) and wish had a more forgiving eye relief, but the exit pupil makes up for that, IMO, as it's easier to bring up. Just my observations with the unit...
I'm curious, what issues did you have with it?
The only potential issue I have a problem with is the mount wearing to the point of not being able to hold correctly as some people have with the original Elcan design. I don't care about the poorly implemented NOD compatibility. The weight is not an issue for me, but the highly convex ocular reflects too much when transitioning from a lit area to a darker area, and I wish the unit sat just a little higher (still hoping for the possible LT replacement mount) and wish had a more forgiving eye relief, but the exit pupil makes up for that, IMO, as it's easier to bring up. Just my observations with the unit...
Here is the short list:
FOV
Windage/elevation controls
Poor eye relief on 1X
Not a true 1 power
C4
Has anyone played with one of the Kahles Helia CSX 1.1-4x24s?
They are claiming a 500hr battery life on the newest models.
http://www.kahlesoptik.com/index.php5?menu=24&sprache=0&pf=1&model_id=56
http://www.kahlesoptik.com/bild.php5?id=635
Has anyone played with one of the Kahles Helia CSX 1.1-4x24s?
They are claiming a 500hr battery life on the newest models.
http://www.kahlesoptik.com/index.php5?menu=24&sprache=0&pf=1&model_id=56
http://www.kahlesoptik.com/bild.php5?id=635
Yes, I have used them. Glass is clear, but don't care for the reticle. The red dot also is not visible in full sun.
C4
Yes, I have used them. Glass is clear, but don't care for the reticle. The red dot also is not visible in full sun.
C4
That is not what I wanted to hear :mad:
Bolt_Overide
03-29-07, 12:04
Grant,
Whats the actual street price for the horus?
Grant,
Whats the actual street price for the horus?
I generally sell them for about $814.
C4
FOV
Windage/elevation controls
Poor eye relief on 1X
Not a true 1 power
Perceived FOV is excellent, at least to me in comparison with most 1-4x, though I'd agree somewhat on your other points, but the Specter does everything I've wanted an optic to do for a long time.
Perceived FOV is excellent, at least to me in comparison with most 1-4x, though I'd agree somewhat on your other points, but the Specter does everything I've wanted an optic to do for a long time.
Looking through the Specter is like looking through the Aimpoint 2X. It really narrows your FOV down.
Have you used a S&B Short Dot or the NF 1-4 yet? They have very good FOV's IMHO.
I want to like this optic in the worst way, but just cannot.
C4
Looking through the Specter is like looking through the Aimpoint 2X. It really narrows your FOV down.
Have you used a S&B Short Dot or the NF 1-4 yet? They have very good FOV's IMHO.
I want to like this optic in the worst way, but just cannot.
C4
Yeah, well comparing an Aimpoint or EOTech against the Specter isn't really a fair comparison, IMO, though I guess comparing them with and without magnifiers might be more in-line. At this point the Specter is kind of in a class of it's own.
It's been a number of years since I tried the Short Dot, but the magnification bothered me a little bit at 1x, I'm thinking because my cross eye dominance, and the FOV seemed small. There wasn't really much on the market to compare it with then, but it just didn't seem right for me... I've heard the new ones are better, but haven't viewed one.
I haven't seen the NF or USO 1-4s, but the Kahles didn't impress me.
Oh a side note, the GRSC scope in the other thread has me interested, well at least the reticle does.
I guess everyone is picky in their own way.
Yeah, well comparing an Aimpoint or EOTech against the Specter isn't really a fair comparison, IMO, though I guess comparing them with and without magnifiers might be more in-line. At this point the Specter is kind of in a class of it's own.
It's been a number of years since I tried the Short Dot, but the magnification bothered me a little bit at 1x, I'm thinking because my cross eye dominance, and the FOV seemed small. There wasn't really much on the market to compare it with then, but it just didn't seem right for me... I've heard the new ones are better, but haven't viewed one.
I haven't seen the NF or USO 1-4s, but the Kahles didn't impress me.
Oh a side note, the GRSC scope in the other thread has me interested, well at least the reticle does.
I guess everyone is picky in their own way.
I am technically NOT comparing an EOTech or an Aimpoint to the Specter. I am taking one specific model that Aimpoint makes (ML2-2X) and using that model to demonstrate what looking through the Specter compares too.
The S&B SD is on of the VERY few optics that is almost a true 1X. No other optic can really say that (espeically not the Specter as it is more like a 1.5-1.7X).
The SN-4 is junk IMHO, but the NF is going to own the market I think because of its lower cost and high quality.
C4
Anyone care for the Leupold MRT 1.5-5 scope! Just looking to see if anyone has used one! I was planning on getting one but Im still waiting to see whats coming out! I have a 16 inch carbine and think one of these scopes will work well for me just deciding us gonna be a challenge! Where can we get a look at some of the prices for these scopes(It would be great if someone could PM me a list of the scopes talked about in this thread with prices!)! Thanks gentlemen for this thread, it has been very informative!
Grunt Out!
Anyone care for the Leupold MRT 1.5-5 scope!
Grunt Out!
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=4209
Semper Fi,
Jeff
Anyone care for the Leupold MRT 1.5-5 scope! Just looking to see if anyone has used one! I was planning on getting one but Im still waiting to see whats coming out! I have a 16 inch carbine and think one of these scopes will work well for me just deciding us gonna be a challenge! Where can we get a look at some of the prices for these scopes(It would be great if someone could PM me a list of the scopes talked about in this thread with prices!)! Thanks gentlemen for this thread, it has been very informative!
Grunt Out!
I actually just came from checking one out in person and it's a really nice scope for the money based on internet prices. The gun shop I went too was trying to rob me in daylight obviously with their prices. I'm all about supporting B&M storefronts but I'm also about personal finances. Let's just say I would be within $100 of a NF 1-4 before military discount for what they were charging for the Leupold. All in all I think the Leupold is great at $700 but not $1000. Consequently that store wanted $475 + tax for a EOTech 552. They use to have great prices a couple of years ago but not any longer.
I am technically NOT comparing an EOTech or an Aimpoint to the Specter. I am taking one specific model that Aimpoint makes (ML2-2X) and using that model to demonstrate what looking through the Specter compares too.
The S&B SD is on of the VERY few optics that is almost a true 1X. No other optic can really say that (espeically not the Specter as it is more like a 1.5-1.7X).
The SN-4 is junk IMHO, but the NF is going to own the market I think because of its lower cost and high quality.
Hmm.... The Short Dot I viewed was obviously not anywhere near a true 1x. I doubt I'll be abe to find a NF to try unless I buy it.
Hmm.... The Short Dot I viewed was obviously not anywhere near a true 1x. I doubt I'll be abe to find a NF to try unless I buy it.
Believe it or not, the S&B is the closest to a true 1X that you will find in a scope.
I have some NF 1-4's coming this week (new generation).
C4
Bolt_Overide
04-01-07, 11:23
and no doubt the NF is about 1200 bucks or more.
What is out there that a regular working stiff who isnt made of money?
I simply cannot justify spending that much on optics, christ I dont have that much in the weapon. And I dont shoot at bad guys for a living anymore, so I dont "need" this optic, its just something to enhance the fun i have with my toys.
and no doubt the NF is about 1200 bucks or more.
What is out there that a regular working stiff who isnt made of money?
I simply cannot justify spending that much on optics, christ I dont have that much in the weapon. And I dont shoot at bad guys for a living anymore, so I dont "need" this optic, its just something to enhance the fun i have with my toys.
The Trijicon TR21 is really your best bet for what you pay and what you get.
C4
Looking through the Specter is like looking through the Aimpoint 2X. It really narrows your FOV down.
Have you used a S&B Short Dot or the NF 1-4 yet? They have very good FOV's IMHO.
I want to like this optic in the worst way, but just cannot.
C4
I have no hands on with either of these but the Specter lists better FOV than the Short Dot, both at 1x and a 4x, at least according to each company's websites. Elcan lists eye relief at 70mm which is just shy of 3".
I have no hands on with either of these but the Specter lists better FOV than the Short Dot, both at 1x and a 4x, at least according to each company's websites. Elcan lists eye relief at 70mm which is just shy of 3".
Yes I know. They also tell you that it is a true 1X as well. It is not.
C4
Yes I know. They also tell you that it is a true 1X as well. It is not.
C4
What is it?
S&B isn't either, but they label it a 1.1X. Leupy 1.5 x 5X is really a 1.5 x 4.5X, Leupy admits that in their tech brochure. Many optics mfg's mis-represent actual magnification range, so if the Elcan is 1.2x or worse on lower power, then you have an argument. But if they are fudging for rounding purposes, and are labeling a 1.1X optic as a 1X optic, then it's no real difference from the S&B.
What is it?
S&B isn't either, but they label it a 1.1X. Leupy 1.5 x 5X is really a 1.5 x 4.5X, Leupy admits that in their tech brochure. Many optics mfg's mis-represent actual magnification range, so if the Elcan is 1.2x or worse on lower power, then you have an argument. But if they are fudging for rounding purposes, and are labeling a 1.1X optic as a 1X optic, then it's no real difference from the S&B.
My guestimate would be that it is a 1.5. Talked to the Leupy guys at shot and they thought it was closer to a 2X. :eek: The S&B is very close to a 1.1 IMHO.
C4
What is out there that a regular working stiff who isnt made of money?
I simply cannot justify spending that much on optics, christ I dont have that much in the weapon. And I dont shoot at bad guys for a living anymore, so I dont "need" this optic, its just something to enhance the fun i have with my toys.
It's an unfortunate truth that the optics often cost more than the weapon, but aside from that, you have quite a few viable options.
If you have about $600, maybe less, a Trijicon Accupoint is a great choice.
As you go downward in price, there are still some excellent choices. I have two that are not often mentioned (if ever), but they work well if you know how to use them.
My first optic back in the mid 1990s was a Leupold Vari-X II 1-4X20mm. It doesn't have illumination, but it is rugged, has excellent optics, and works really well. The current VX-II is the equivalent, which usually sells in the $250 ball park.
Another inexpensive option I have is a Pentax 1.5-5X that I don't think is made any longer. If you can find one, you should pay around $200-$250 for it.
The both have plain jane duplex reticles, but with a little practice you can get really fast with them at low magnification on close targets and the fine crosshairs are better for longer shots than dots in my opinion. The downside is that you have no illumination, so after dusk they're not going be as useful as a more expensive scopes with illumination.
Nikon, Burris, and some of the other mid-ranges brands have comparable low power variables that are worth considering.
Weaver has a 1-3X. I suspect its 1X setting is closer to no magnification than most scopes that dial down to 1, 1.1, or 1.5.
the Weaver V3 is a true 1X and it makes the front sight bridge stand out, so you really need a folding sight. The Accupoint at 1.25X works ok for me with a fixed sight though.:)
Billy
Bolt_Overide
04-02-07, 01:42
What about the leupold mark 4 1.5-5, whos got some feeback on this?
Believe it or not, the S&B is the closest to a true 1X that you will find in a scope.
I was looking around... I guess the early Short Dots were 1.25-4x and the Elcan is supposed to be 1.05-1.15-4x (if I remember what the Elcan rep had mentioned on arfcom... I don't have access to the S&B to compare....
But judging from the objective size and magnification, the Elcan does have a much better exit pupil... which theoretically will make it more forging when you're bringing it up to sight. Anyways, I don't have them both to compare so my opinion can't be validated and I'll just shut up now. lol
What about the leupold mark 4 1.5-5, whos got some feeback on this?
Your answer can be found on Page 4
Semper Fi
Jeff
I was looking around... I guess the early Short Dots were 1.25-4x and the Elcan is supposed to be 1.05-1.15-4x (if I remember what the Elcan rep had mentioned on arfcom... I don't have access to the S&B to compare....
I don't remember any 1.25-4x Short dots.
Maybe your thinking of S&B's Zenith line.
Bolt_Overide
04-04-07, 00:10
Your answer can be found on Page 4
Semper Fi
Jeff
Thank you sir.
I don't remember any 1.25-4x Short dots.
Maybe your thinking of S&B's Zenith line.
It very well could have been. Like I said previously, it's been at least a half-dozen years since I viewed it, never directly compared them and am not an expert on S&B products, but I do know great optics when I view them and wasn't satisfied with the Short Dot when I did. *shrug*
It very well could have been. Like I said previously, it's been at least a half-dozen years since I viewed it, never directly compared them and am not an expert on S&B products, but I do know great optics when I view them and wasn't satisfied with the Short Dot when I did. *shrug*
I did'nt know the Short Dot had even been out 6 years ago.
Could you provide some background info as to your qualifications? That way one could have some measurement of the clout of your statement that you were not satisfied with the Short Dot.
It very well could have been. Like I said previously, it's been at least a half-dozen years since I viewed it, never directly compared them and am not an expert on S&B products, but I do know great optics when I view them and wasn't satisfied with the Short Dot when I did. *shrug*
It more than likely was a Zenith which the Short Dots were derived from but they are 2 different optics. To make it more confusing there are 2 generations of Short Dot I and also a Short Dot II which I guess will be called the Zenith LE in USA apparently if I remember correctly? Either way I guess do whatever works for you I guess.
It more than likely was a Zenith which the Short Dots were derived from but they are 2 different optics. To make it more confusing there are 2 generations of Short Dot I and also a Short Dot II which I guess will be called the Zenith LE in USA apparently if I remember correctly? Either way I guess do whatever works for you I guess.
Hmm... well that just makes things even more confusing doesn't it? lol. I wish I had taken notes when I originally saw it... I was too busy shooting it though.
I did'nt know the Short Dot had even been out 6 years ago.
Could you provide some background info as to your qualifications? That way one could have some measurement of the clout of your statement that you were not satisfied with the Short Dot.
The Short Dot has indeed been out for a while... How long? I don't freaking know, I'm not a S&B product expert, nor have I paid particular attention to creating a timeline to make you happy.
Umm... You want my resume? lol
Okay,
I got my first AK-47 for my 14th birthday in the early 80's... and have owned many firearms by the time I was 21... most of the crappy stuff... AR-15 SP1s, AR-15A2s, even owned a SPAS, Spectre, a couple of MACs, a couple of other garbage "assault pistols" and a number of other firearms...
I was an FFL/SOT in 89-92.
I graduated ITC as 11b at Ft Benning during the transition from Desert Shield to Desert Storm but was not activated because our unit had not been upgraded from M113's to Bradleys. I worked for HHC S3, operated the radios for TOC/TAC and was the bn cdr's driver, switched to a line company to get my corporal bars to return to S3 as an Ops Sgt. Was offered a position with CADOJ drug interdiction program but refused and ETS'd after one term before getting my bars.
I've worked at a gun shop from 1998-ish to 2006 which dealt with a lot of black rifles. We were the #1 Armalite and Bushmaster dealer in 1999 where we would receive pallets at a time. One of my bosses I worked with was a hardcore Colt/Antiques dealer. My job also included pricing antiques, providing insurance estimates, and also dealing with military style rifles and accessories.
Right now I'm a technical sales consultant for ColdWarShooters.net.
I've provided expert testimony to SCCO DA's office, provided assistance to SCCO's crime lab and am friends with the ex-head of ATF enforcement in San Jose. Would you like personal references too? :rolleyes:
Oh a picture of some of my latest 'collection'...
I have more invested in my two primary binoculars than most people have invested in their primary rifle, or even their whole collections... (good binoculars are more important than the most high tech gadget rifle optics, not including tactical/'sniper' rifle scopes, IMO)
I'm also a closet optics snob.
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/7180/ultravidcn2.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/836/mp15t2svd2.jpg
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/6152/toys0rz.jpg
I'm not a combat vet, I'm not special forces or delta, I'm not a ninja operator...
My scanner is not working now, so I just snapped a picture that I've never posted on the internet before... Here's a picture of me from the late 80s... 1987-1988. This is a combined collection of mine and a friend back from probably 1987 or 1988....
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/4637/me80sbk7.jpg
I'm nobody special. Now that you've had your fun... Who exactly are you?
To avoid further confusion about the various Short Dot models:
Disclaimer: I do not consider myself to be a Short Dot expert but I do understand this much though.
1.1–4 x 20 CQB Short Dot (Gen I)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/ShortDotGenI.jpg
This is the first generation of the Short Dot. It has non-locking turrets and comes standard with changeable BDC cams for 5.56mm M855 & 75 gr. Hornady and .308 M118LR 16” & 20”.
1.1–4 x 20 CQB Short Dot (Gen II)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/untitled-1.jpg
This is the newer version of the original Short Dot. It has the self-locking adjustment turrets. It comes standard with your choice of a M855 or M1118LR BDC cam.
- Both are first focal plane with 20mm objective lenses.
- The easiest way to tell the difference between the two models is to look for the taller/longer adjustment knobs found on the genII.
Both can be ordered with either the CQB or #7 reticles .
CQB:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/SBCQBreticle.jpg
#7:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/No_-7FlashDot.jpg
The new Short Dot II is actually called the “S&B 1.1-4x24 Zenith Short Dot LE” in the U.S.
- I could not find an actual picture of it.
It differs from the original Short Dot’s in many ways:
- 2nd Focal Plane
- 24mm objective lense
- Spare battery cap replaces the locking windage turret.
- It's slightly over a 1/2" longer because it’s based on the 1.1-4x S&B Zenith line
- Available in the #2, #7, and #9 reticles.
- Supposedly $100 cheaper.
S&B FD2:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/No_-2FlashDot.gif
S&B FD7:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/No_-7FlashDot.jpg
S&B FD9:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/No_-9FlashDot.gif
To avoid further confusion about the various Short Dot models:
Disclaimer: I do not consider myself to be a Short Dot expert but I do understand this much though.
The new Short Dot II is actually called the “S&B 1.1-4x24 Zenith Short Dot LE” in the U.S.
- I could not find an actual picture of it.
It differs from the original Short Dot’s in many ways:
- 2nd Focal Plane
- 24mm objective lense
- Spare battery cap replaces the locking windage turret.
- It's slightly over a 1/2" longer because it’s based on the 1.1-4x S&B Zenith line
- Available in the #2, #7, and #9 reticles.
- Supposedly $100 cheaper.
S&B FD7:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/No_-7FlashDot.jpg
[/IMG]
Many thanks for that tutorial.
Interestingly Burris has a functionally similar model, the 1-4X 30mm Euro Diamond. Appears to be the exact same reticle, here are the specs on the reticle dimensions:
"A" Dim. (thin wire)
1X - 2.1
2X - 1.0
3X - 0.7
4X - 0.5
"B" Dim. (thick wire)
1X - 12.0
2X - 6.0
3X - 4.0
4X - 3.0
"W" Dim. (cross hair-to-thick wire)
1X - 52.0
2X - 26.0
3X - 17.3
4X - 13.0
E-Dot (dot)
1X - 3.2
2X - 1.6
3X - 1.1
4X - 0.8
Street price is well below S&B. Just an option to consider, I am not suggesting this is an equal because the Burris has no track record. But Burris is a reputable company, they put out decent glass.
Lots of "love" for the Spincter DR on lightfigher, from guys that have real experience with these type optics...
Derek_Connor
04-15-07, 07:35
Im telling you guys ;)
The Meopta K-Dot has done everything the short dot has for me in the last 3 months.
It also freed up $1200 in my wallet :)
It has been through two rifle classes with an extended round count, one class being the super dave class where we were very hard on our weapons compared to most classes.
Some complain about the reticle, I love it, its not a cross-hair type like the short-dot, it is like an aimpoint, made to get hits on man sized objects and quickly.
Some info on it.... (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=2445)
Lots of "love" for the Spincter DR on lightfigher, from guys that have real experience with these type optics...
Actually lots of hate... But I've never been insecure enough to need peer approval to know that something works great for me. lol
Actually lots of hate... But I've never been insecure enough to need peer approval to know that something works great for me. lol
Optics are a personal choice for sure and if it works for you then it works.
C4
I have a Meopta K-dot in a LaRue SPR on a medium distance build with a WOA 16" mid-length SS barrel. I think that the magnification is pretty close to 1X on its lowest setting. The glass is good, the reticle is O.K., I couldn't give a crap about the extended sunshade, and the price was low. It seems to be fairly well-constructed, not that I know diddly about optic design or manufacturing.
Notwithstanding, I'm not staking my life on its performance or reliability.
For work, I don't need a magnified optic and use an LMT with an Aimpoint M3. If it were a scope for a work rifle, I would buy a scope that worked well for me and that had a long history of reliability, regardless of the cost. For one of my hobby guns, the Meopta is fine.
I've heard a lot of people say that the S&B is a 90% solution. I'm curious, what would make it a 100% solution? Extended battery life? Smaller, lighter? Eye relief, no parallax?
And Grant, did you ever get a chance to reveiw those NF scopes?
Optics are a personal choice for sure and if it works for you then it works.
Absolutely. Optics need to be viewed and every individual will find that their personal preferences differ. No amount of what other people think will really justify how well something works for you.
Just with my binoculars, I've used several Swarovskis in various conditions as well as with Zeiss and Leica. I loved the Zeiss FL's as they did have the best image, but found they were too bulky and I personally didn't like the composite bodies, the Swarovski ELs just seemed too 'thick and heavy'. I was used to the size of the Zeiss 10x40 Classics, and the Leica 10x42 Ultravids fit my hands the best, I could hold them steadier, and they offered my eyes better color rendition than the Swarovskis. All three make the world's best binoculars, but when it comes down to it, the statistics and specs don't matter, what you actually prefer does.
I've heard a lot of people say that the S&B is a 90% solution. I'm curious, what would make it a 100% solution? Extended battery life? Smaller, lighter? Eye relief, no parallax?
And Grant, did you ever get a chance to review those NF scopes?
I think it has something to do with the $2000+ price tag :D
I think it has something to do with the $2000+ price tag :D
That's the only negative to the Short Dot in my opinion.
This is kinda random but I think the Short Dot with the Leupold SPR reticle would be pretty nice for those who feel the CQB reticle to be too cluttered. It would be nice if you could switch between both an illuminated dot or illuminated crosshairs with a switch too in an ideal world. I have been looking at the Leupold Mk4 1.5-5 SPR again since it was sunny today and sure enough it was hard to pickup the reticle at times. On top of that I think I rather have a 1x-4x scope or something close to it anyway but I really dig the reticle personally. It's simplistic yet still very functional.
Just took my first ever carbine class with Sully/Defensive Edge. It was very basic, so I don't claim any special knowledge or skillsets.
However, I did notice that I had a heck of a time going to a good cheekweld and sight picture on my IOR 1.1-4x26 while at the same time going fast. Oftentimes, I ended up shooting through a bad sight picture, which probably wasn't a big deal at 10 yards but did open up my groups at 25+ yards. It was also a PITA to sight through the scope while lying in nonstandard prone positions, since half the time I couldn't even get the stock up to my cheek. Shooting while moving was also a bit of a pain, since cheekweld and eye relief requirements are much higher for variable optics than they are for dot/holo optics. AND, the scope is significantly heavier than any of the dot/holo optics out there.
OTOH, I really liked being able to dial up 4x and put bugholes in targets at 25+ yards when shooting supported (kneeling, sitting, standard prone). And it was especially nice to have the magnification when we shot for distance (100 - 350 meters) at the end of the class.
How do you guys running low-power variable optics deal with all the above issues? I'm guessing training and practice (especially since I've seen pics of guys running 3-gun stages with variable optics), but I'm seriously considering an Eotech 557 with the 3x or 4x flip magnifier (I prefer the ring and dot to just the dot, and I like the holdovers) to remove cheekweld and eye relief issues at close ranges.
Any thoughts? Thanks.
Just took my first ever carbine class with Sully/Defensive Edge. It was very basic, so I don't claim any special knowledge or skillsets.
However, I did notice that I had a heck of a time going to a good cheekweld and sight picture on my IOR 1.1-4x26 while at the same time going fast. Oftentimes, I ended up shooting through a bad sight picture, which probably wasn't a big deal at 10 yards but did open up my groups at 25+ yards. It was also a PITA to sight through the scope while lying in nonstandard prone positions, since half the time I couldn't even get the stock up to my cheek. Shooting while moving was also a bit of a pain, since cheekweld and eye relief requirements are much higher for variable optics than they are for dot/holo optics. AND, the scope is significantly heavier than any of the dot/holo optics out there.
OTOH, I really liked being able to dial up 4x and put bugholes in targets at 25+ yards when shooting supported (kneeling, sitting, standard prone). And it was especially nice to have the magnification when we shot for distance (100 - 350 meters) at the end of the class.
How do you guys running low-power variable optics deal with all the above issues? I'm guessing training and practice (especially since I've seen pics of guys running 3-gun stages with variable optics), but I'm seriously considering an Eotech 557 with the 3x or 4x flip magnifier (I prefer the ring and dot to just the dot, and I like the holdovers) to remove cheekweld and eye relief issues at close ranges.
Any thoughts? Thanks.
Most 1X scopes are not really 1X, but mor like 1.25-1.50. The S&B is about the only one that I have found that is pretty close to a true 1X.
Practice plays a part in it though.
C4
Two questions:
1. Do you wear earmuffs or plugs?
2. Do you have fixed stock (A2, A1, Sully, etc.) or an adjustable?
These may not apply to you, but they might help if you're anything like me.
I can't use earmuffs with long guns. I can't get a decent cheekweld, and if I try to come close, I lose the seal on the muff on the stock side, which is not a good thing. When I switched to plugs, it really helped.
Another thing is that your stock might be too long. If you have an adjustable, try reducing the length a little and see if it helps.
If those don't apply, you might try moving the optic rearward a little to see if that helps as well.
Did you talk to Sully about it? If not, you might want to drop him an e-mail since he got to see your gear, your body, and how you shoot. He would probably have some helpful suggestions.
However, I did notice that I had a heck of a time going to a good cheekweld and sight picture on my IOR 1.1-4x26 while at the same time going fast. Oftentimes, I ended up shooting through a bad sight picture, which probably wasn't a big deal at 10 yards but did open up my groups at 25+ yards. It was also a PITA to sight through the scope while lying in nonstandard prone positions, since half the time I couldn't even get the stock up to my cheek. Shooting while moving was also a bit of a pain, since cheekweld and eye relief requirements are much higher for variable optics than they are for dot/holo optics. AND, the scope is significantly heavier than any of the dot/holo optics out there.
Believe it or not, the S&B is the closest to a true 1X that you will find in a scope.
I have some NF 1-4's coming this week (new generation).
C4
Any review of the new generation (NF)?
What were the changes?
Thanks
Any review of the new generation (NF)?
What were the changes?
Thanks
The reticle is a little brighter, but still not visible in full sun. That is really the only change that I can see.
C4
What date of manufacture would now be considered, "new version" for the NF scopes.
What date of manufacture would now be considered, "new version" for the NF scopes.
No idea, but mine are 2 months old.
C4
ElectricFactory
06-04-07, 23:46
Just took my first ever carbine class with Sully/Defensive Edge. It was very basic, so I don't claim any special knowledge or skillsets.
However, I did notice that I had a heck of a time going to a good cheekweld and sight picture on my IOR 1.1-4x26 while at the same time going fast.
Any thoughts? Thanks.
Is there a consensus regarding the IOR line, specifically the Valdada 4 x 24 M2 Rifle Scope, .223 Cam ?
I am a S&B PM-II owner and love that scope on my AI. I never liked the blue filter on the S&B SD though. The Nightforce 1-4 seems nicer to me and cost less also. I would not want to spend more for the S&B as it seems almost as good, but not better.
The Trijicon is a 1 inch tube. That is a deal-killer. The Burris is 30mm and I would like to check one out.
http://www.opticsplanet.net/burris-1x-4x-24mm-german-mat-euro-diamond-scopes-30mm-illum.html
This is driveing me CRAZY
The price for a 1-4 is HIGH compared to sniper/Target type scopes
Been looking at CHEAPER 1-4 scopes
VX111 54906 LEU 1-5x20 circle dot 579.99 swfa
TR21 1.25 -4x24 retail 675.00
Burris 1-4x 24 Illum 3P#4 517.95 swfa
WEAVER 1.5-4.5x24 ILLUM German #4 495.99
The TR21
looks like a good scope for the CASH
Plus you have to buy a Larue mount for 200 bucks
make a ACOG look good since it comes with a mount
This is driveing me CRAZY
The price for a 1-4 is HIGH compared to sniper/Target type scopes
Been looking at CHEAPER 1-4 scopes
VX111 54906 LEU 1-5x20 circle dot 579.99 swfa
TR21 1.25 -4x24 retail 675.00
Burris 1-4x 24 Illum 3P#4 517.95 swfa
WEAVER 1.5-4.5x24 ILLUM German #4 495.99
The TR21
looks like a good scope for the CASH
Plus you have to buy a Larue mount for 200 bucks
make a ACOG look good since it comes with a mount
The price you have on the TR21 is WAY high! ;) Give me a shout if you want to see our forum member prices on them.
The Trijicon TR21 is a fantastic scope for the money and is the only one its price range that has an illuminated reticle that is visible in full sun.
C4
While it is nice that the TR21 is visible in daylight, it has no battery power, so is too dim in the dark. You could never go from outdoors to indoors in and expect to see the reticle before your eyes adjust to the dark.
Consider this:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=186660&utm_source=nextag&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=657
Myself -- I plan to get the Nightforce. I have two S&B PMII scopes and love them, but the Nightforce is superb (though you cannot see the dot in bright daylight).
Consider this:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=186660&utm_source=nextag&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=657
The Millett DMS is perfect for us low speed high drag keyboard operators :). I love mine.
The price you have on the TR21 is WAY high! ;) Give me a shout if you want to see our forum member prices on them.
The Trijicon TR21 is a fantastic scope for the money and is the only one its price range that has an illuminated reticle that is visible in full sun.
C4
I was hopen the VX111 circle dot was visible?
I live in SW FL Punta Gorda very bright here!
I refuse to buy a ILLUM scope that cant be used in the sun
TR21 was there Factory price swfa was around 575.95 I think
to bad the S&B cost so much
I like to see aimpoint to make a elcan type 4x Lever that under 600 bucks
TR21
amber is the best in bright light ?
I hear alot of SF use them
The main thing I didnt like about the specs was water Proof 3 feet
kinda sounds weak
Hey guy's,
I just finished a 3 day course with Spartan Tactical, Jim Smith and Greg Coker.
They were running the CQ/T and MR/T. Greg indicated that he has been working with Leupold on upgrading the MR/T. One of the improvments was adaylight visible reticle, and all the upgrades would be able to be retrofitted to existing scopes, so current owners wouldn't be screwed.
I know its kinda heresay, and you may not believe it to you see it, but thought I'd pass it on.
In the FWIW category, they still liked both Leupolds.
Bob
I'm shooting a multi-gun match with shots out to 300 yards on Saturday. I'm going to shoot my Colt with the Leupold Vari-X II 1-4X20mm, which I haven't used for . . . years . . . except to verify zero. I've been shooting matches (and classes) with red dots since I've rarely had to shoot past 100 yards.
It's a humble piece of glass, but I'll report any interesting observations if anyone is interested.
I'm shooting a multi-gun match with shots out to 300 yards on Saturday. I'm going to shoot my Colt with the Leupold Vari-X II 1-4X20mm, which I haven't used for . . . years . . . except to verify zero. I've been shooting matches (and classes) with red dots since I've rarely had to shoot past 100 yards.
It's a humble piece of glass, but I'll report any interesting observations if anyone is interested.
I'm interested, thanks. I think there's a lot of 1x20 non-illuminated glass out there that would serve well in a lot of situations.
HLDefender
07-25-07, 21:30
I'm shooting a multi-gun match with shots out to 300 yards on Saturday. I'm going to shoot my Colt with the Leupold Vari-X II 1-4X20mm, which I haven't used for . . . years . . . except to verify zero. I've been shooting matches (and classes) with red dots since I've rarely had to shoot past 100 yards.
It's a humble piece of glass, but I'll report any interesting observations if anyone is interested.
Speaking of which -- That VXII happens to be a very good value . Solid piece for the money.
I have one mounted on a LaRue mount and just parked my EOTech ahead of it on my forward rail. Works real nice even though it kinda gets heavy with all that gear mounted up there. It makes you wonder how nice it would be if EOTech and Leupy got together. They line up real well too.
HLD...
....Greg indicated that he has been working with Leupold on upgrading the MR/T. One of the improvments was adaylight visible reticle, and all the upgrades would be able to be retrofitted to existing scopes, so current owners wouldn't be screwed....
1) That would be awesome if it happens, as I can get MR/T's from Midway for a good price.
2) The retrofit will not be free, for sure. Most likely one of their $199.99 upgrades. ;)
I'm interested, thanks. I think there's a lot of 1x20 non-illuminated glass out there that would serve well in a lot of situations.
Agreed! I got it back in 1996 or so, and I used it exclusively until 2002 or so. After using it for a couple of years (and seeing how others in my circles were doing the same with similar gear), when I first started suggesting low powered variables made a good general purpose optic I was pretty much roasted on AR15.com for being a combination heretic and idiot. Things have changed a little.
Speaking of which -- That VXII happens to be a very good value . Solid piece for the money.
Agreed. Mine pre-dates Larue and most of the "tactical" hardware on the market now. It's mounted in a B-Square one-piece mount that actually works really well and has been surprisingly durable. If I were doing it again and I had the $$$, I'd obvious go with Larue or something similar, but it's working okay now.
Does the VX-II have "clicky" adjustmements for windage and elevation? The ancestor (Vari-X II) did not, which makes it tough to use "come-up" and such. I pretty much leave it where it is and hold over and under whenever I need it.
HLDefender
07-26-07, 17:17
Agreed. Mine pre-dates Larue and most of the "tactical" hardware on the market now. It's mounted in a B-Square one-piece mount that actually works really well and has been surprisingly durable. If I were doing it again and I had the $$$, I'd obvious go with Larue or something similar, but it's working okay now.
Does the VX-II have "clicky" adjustmements for windage and elevation? The ancestor (Vari-X II) did not, which makes it tough to use "come-up" and such. I pretty much leave it where it is and hold over and under whenever I need it.
Yes - mine has a nice tactile and audible "click" with each 1/4" movement.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/HOMELANDEFENDER/VXIISPR1.jpg
HLD...
HLDefender
07-26-07, 17:29
OK - so I'm off by .5 magnification as per the thread title, but does anyone have any experience with this Weaver ill variable in 1.5x4.5 ?
http://www.swfa.com/pc-9026-1206-new-weaver-15-45x24-classic-extreme-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx
The price looks nice compared to the leupy's with similar magnification:
http://www.swfa.com/pc-5450-307-leupold-15-5x20-vx-iii-30mm-riflescope.aspx
A $150 difference. Is the VXIII that much better in terms of glass/performance? From what I've read the VXIII is actually closer to a 1.5 to 4 on the top end of magnification.
HLD...
Leupy VX III actual magnification is listed as 1.5 - 4.5 (non-illuminated reticle) and 1.5 - 4.4 (illuminated reticle). This from their 2007 catalog spec sheet.
They also offer a model called the European 30, a 1.25-4 X20mm that has an actual magnification of 1.6 - 4.2. Reticles offered are duplex and German #4, but no illumination.
olds442tyguy
07-27-07, 19:49
Hmm. Lately I've really been thinking of getting a 1-4X that doesn't have illumination, yet has a reticle that sticks out enough that I could use it with both eyes open. I got to try a circle X reticle on a 2-7X awhile back, and based on that experience it seems like it would work quite well shooting both eyes open at a decent pace (1X at least).
Anyone use a reticle like this with out illumination on 1X?
http://www.swfa.com/images/leuturkeyplex_popup.jpg
Only the pricey illuminated options seem to be bright enough for the day time, and I don't shoot much at night (if at all). I'm looking for something sub $350, and the Leupold shotgun scope with the circle X reticle seems like a good bet, even if it does give up some accuracy. It's even available in FDE, which I thought was kind of odd for a no frills shotgun line.
Rhino and anyone else that uses/used a non illuminated 1-4X, do you still think it's a viable option for quick and medium range shots?
Rhino and anyone else that uses/used a non illuminated 1-4X, do you still think it's a viable option for quick and medium range shots?
Absolutely, at least when you have plenty of light. Obviously when it gets dark, you're going to have problems, but in the daylight, all you need is a consistent cheek weld and the speed difference between it and a red dot is neglibible. The red dots, of course, are more forgiving of head position with respect to the optic.
I've never tried an illuminated low powered variable scope. I can see how it would be cool to be able to see the illumination in bright sunlight, but as long as you have close a true 1X, I remain unconvinced it's a significant advantage in speed as long as you can see your reticle okay. (I suppose that's a huge caveat!). At night or dimmer light, and illuminated reticle would be awesome, but I could get by without being able to see it in the bright sunshine.
Okay . . . some comments on using my trusty old Leupold Vari-X II 1-4X20mm today:
I used it on 1X (probably somewhere between 1.1X and 1.5X in actual magnification) and it was fine for close stuff and targets out to 70-80 yards. The light was adequate for me to see the reticle (a simple Leupold duplex) and I don't think I was going any slower than I do with my EOTech on my other gun.
When we shot at 300 and 200 yards, I cranked it up to 4X (probably a little less than that in actual magnication). The 300 was prone, and the 200 was freestyle, which I chose to shoot from prone.
The only issue I encountered was eye relief when I had it 4X. When I got into prone, with my nose to the charging handle, it was just a little too close to the glass and I lost the full image a few times. It's not a problem when I'm standing, so obviously my head is not in the same place when I am prone even though I believed my nose was at the charging handle. I solved it by pulling my head back less than a quarter inch, but this tells me I may want to move the scope a little farther forward in the future.
The simple (and elegant) duplex reticle works great ... as long as you know the distance and holdovers aren't a big issue. Shooting at 300, I can see the utility in some kind of range-finding reticle (like mil-dots or one of the newer, more sophisticated reticles). For close range, fast shooting it's just fine, and I think it's probably better than a busier reticle for that application. Perhaps an illuminated dot for close range (that you can see in daylight) is a good thing when the etched part of the reticle is busy ... you can just look at the dot and ignore the rest when you are blasting!
I did have six misses (total) of 32 shots at those distances, but I'm not sure why. I'm fairly sure all were at 300 (see my topic in the competition forum about shooting at longer rangers), but since I've never shot beyond 240 yards, it was totally new to me. I'll need to find out where I am hitting at 300 to know if it's a hardware or slushware problem.
Anyone have a source for the Horus and USO online?
Don Robison
08-12-07, 12:03
Anyone have a source for the Horus and USO online?
Here is their contact page. It's probably your best bet.
http://www.horusvision.com/contact.shtml
Anyone have a source for the Horus and USO online?
We are a horus dealer and am getting ready to place an order with them if there is something you want.
C4
We are a horus dealer and am getting ready to place an order with them if there is something you want.
C4
Not yet. I'm just in another charting mood and was trying to compile info on the various 1-2/5 optics out there. The Horus site doesn't apear to give me much of the info I'm looking for.
Not yet. I'm just in another charting mood and was trying to compile info on the various 1-2/5 optics out there. The Horus site doesn't apear to give me much of the info I'm looking for.
D. Fortier had a piece in one of the G&A AR15 issues where he charted a bunch of stats on various scopes. It included a number of low powered variables. If you saved issue that check it out. If not , oot me a PM or post your question and I'll see if he covered it.
So far I'm tracking the following specs
Make Model # Model Name weight length Eye Relief Min. Eye Relief Max Reticle Min Power Max Power Obj. OD Street Price Illuminated
For the following scopes
Schmidt & Bender 946SD Short Dot
Schmidt & Bender 976L9Z Zenith
Trijicon TR21R Accupoint
Leupold LEU56994 MR/T
Leupold LEU59100 MR/T
Leupold LEU52155 CQ/T
Night Force NXS1424
Kahles 51806 Helia CSX
Kahles 51601 Helia C
Meopta 706580 Meostar R1
Meopta 706550 Meostar R1
Meopta 706540 Meostar R1
I'm open to suggestions for other models to cover. I'd like to find info on the Horus and the USO.
So far I'm tracking the following specs
Make Model # Model Name weight length Eye Relief Min. Eye Relief Max Reticle Min Power Max Power Obj. OD Street Price Illuminated
For the following scopes
Schmidt & Bender 946SD Short Dot
Schmidt & Bender 976L9Z Zenith
Trijicon TR21R Accupoint
Leupold LEU56994 MR/T
Leupold LEU59100 MR/T
Leupold LEU52155 CQ/T
Night Force NXS1424
Kahles 51806 Helia CSX
Kahles 51601 Helia C
Meopta 706580 Meostar R1
Meopta 706550 Meostar R1
Meopta 706540 Meostar R1
I'm open to suggestions for other models to cover. I'd like to find info on the Horus and the USO.
Might want to add whether scopes are 1st or 2nd focal plane designs.
Here's the data for some of your listed models from Fortier's article:
Trijicon
Mag: 1.25 - 4X
Obj Dia: 24mm
FOV: 61.6 -20.5
Ext Pup: 16.9 - 6mm
Eye Relief: 4.8 - 3.4
Tot Adj: 110 MOA
Click Val: .25 MOA
Tube: 1"
Length: 10.2"
Weight: 11.4 oz
Power: tritium/fiber optics
Price: $700
Leupy MRT
Mag: 1.5 - 5X
Obj Dia: 20mm
FOV: 65.7 -23.7
Ext Pup: 13.3 - 4mm
Eye Relief: 4.4 - 3.6
Tot Adj: 80 MOA
Click Val: .50 MOA
Tube: 30mm
Length: 9.4"
Weight: 15 oz
Power: DL1/3N
Price: $799
HORUS
Mag: 1 - 4X
Obj Dia: 24mm
FOV: 26.3 - 7.5 meters (get out the conversion tables)
Ext Pup: 24 - 6mm
Eye Relief: 4.3 - 3.5
Tot Adj: 15 Mils
Click Val: .1 Mil
Tube: 30mm
Length: 9.75"
Weight: 15.9 oz
Power: CR2032
Price: $989
Meopta (non-illuminated model)
Mag: 1.5 - 5X
Obj Dia: 20mm
FOV: 81 - 23.7
Ext Pup: 13.3 - 4mm
Eye Relief: 3.1 constant
Tot Adj: 63 MOA
Click Val: .25 MOA
Tube: 30mm
Length: 9.4"
Weight: 14.1 oz
Power: N/A
Price: $699
I should have been more clear. I have the info for the models I listed.
Thanks though, I'll check that info against what I have in the chart already.
I should have been more clear. I have the info for the models I listed.
Thanks though, I'll check that info against what I have in the chart already.
I do agree Rob, you should have been more clear...........
;)
Does anyone have any experience with the Swarovski Z6 (1x-6x) scope?
paulosantos
09-08-07, 06:46
Does anyone have any experience with the Swarovski Z6 (1x-6x) scope?
I ordered one but I have to wait until October since they are not in the country yet. I will do a full review once I get it. The link below has some good info on it:
http://www.swarovskioptik.at/UserFiles/swarovski_optik/File/Bedienungsanleitungen/BA_Z6_eng_2006.pdf
I talked to Chris at SWFA and they had them a month ago, are they out of them?
paulosantos
09-08-07, 17:07
I talked to Chris at SWFA and they had them a month ago, are they out of them?
I talked to them last week and they had one left. I ordered through Swaraovski to get the Government discount, but they are waiting on the next batch to come in.
Sounds good. How much are they running for GOV members if you don't mind me asking?
Canonshooter
10-08-07, 13:50
For those without the neccessary scratch for one of the better scopes, this one certainly looks good as an entry model; light weight, 1X magnification and small size. Sure, it's only a non-illuminated duplex reticle, but still looks good for the price;
Weaver 1-3x20 Classic V3 Series Rifle Scope (http://www.swfa.com/pc-2321-256-weaver-1-3x20-classic-v3-series-rifle-scope.aspx)
I'm thinking about picking one up and mounting it on another modified BP-02 mount. For ammo accuracy testing or knocking down steel at 200 and 300 yards, I think it would do nicely.
HLDefender
10-08-07, 18:28
For those without the neccessary scratch for one of the better scopes, this one certainly looks good as an entry model; light weight, 1X magnification and small size. Sure, it's only a non-illuminated duplex reticle, but still looks good for the price;
Weaver 1-3x20 Classic V3 Series Rifle Scope (http://www.swfa.com/pc-2321-256-weaver-1-3x20-classic-v3-series-rifle-scope.aspx)
I'm thinking about picking one up and mounting it on another modified BP-02 mount. For ammo accuracy testing or knocking down steel at 200 and 300 yards, I think it would do nicely.
I'm actually real close to getting one for evaluation. Everyone who has one says that its as close to a true 1x as it gets for true two eyes open shooting. The price is a non issue. I have a Leupy VXII 1-4 that sits in a LaRue SPR mount. But I never could use it like that. Its more like a 1.5x at low power. The little magnification I give up at the high end (4x to 3x) would be a good trade if the lowest stting on the Weaver is true 1x. Its a favorite of the 3 gun crowd from what I read...
HLD...
hey Grant,
you got those new NFs yet?
Cyrus
hey Grant,
you got those new NFs yet?
Cyrus
Got some and am using them right now. Can order you one if interested.
C4
Does anyone know how many M.O.A. in one complete rotation of the elev. knob on the standard N.F. NXS 1-4x24mm has?
Are the turret caps waterproof?
Thanks.
I ordered one but I have to wait until October since they are not in the country yet. I will do a full review once I get it. The link below has some good info on it:
http://www.swarovskioptik.at/UserFiles/swarovski_optik/File/Bedienungsanleitungen/BA_Z6_eng_2006.pdf
It was actually drop shipped from Swaro's HQ...apparently the last one till late October.
I FREAKING LOVE IT! IT IS AWESOME...pics to follow, when I get a new camera (soon).
Has anyone had any experience with the Leupold VX-3 1.5-5x 20mm Illuminated Circle Dot Reticle scope? I've been looking at it and the Leupold Mark 4 1.5-5x 20mm MR/T M2 with the Illum. SPR reticule. Any thoughts on how they compare with each other?
Alaskapopo
12-17-07, 22:53
Take a look at this. I ordered one. They have a good leo discount and its the only 1-6 x scope I have seen. It seems to be the best thing going on paper.
Review of Swarovski Z6i 1x6-24 Rifle Scope with Circle Dot Reticle
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=349211&page=1
http://z6.swarovskioptik.com/?l=US&DirectLink=Z6_Vollansicht
Derek_Connor
12-18-07, 08:23
Take a look at this. I ordered one. They have a good leo discount and its the only 1-6 x scope I have seen. It seems to be the best thing going on paper.
Review of Swarovski Z6i 1x6-24 Rifle Scope with Circle Dot Reticle
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=349211&page=1
http://z6.swarovskioptik.com/?l=US&DirectLink=Z6_Vollansicht
MSRP is $1900?!
What does the LE/MIL Pricing bring it down to?
ffhounddog
12-18-07, 09:35
MSRP is $1900?!
What does the LE/MIL Pricing bring it down to?
$1850 :D
That warovski is in the same price range as the S&B, but lacks the proven track record, and phenominal S&B service. Why bother?
Alaskapopo
12-18-07, 14:13
That warovski is in the same price range as the S&B, but lacks the proven track record, and phenominal S&B service. Why bother?
Because its a 1 to 6 power scope instead of a 1 to 4. Plus its a true 1 x not a 1.1. Also the LEO discount is significantly cheaper on this scope than the one S&B was going to give I checked. The Short Dot is excellent but it does not have the same magnification range. 1 to 6 is the best I have seen to date. I was close to getting a Short dot when I discovered this scope I am very glad I waited.
Pat
Anyone been using the Millet DMS-1? I know they had some QC problems but I picked one up anyway. It has a little spec on the inside lens but Betty at Millett discounted it so much on top of my dealer discount it was almost free:D . I havent shot with it yet and was wondering how they are holding up?
Without daytime visible lit reticle, it is hard to consider it a serious optic IMO. I was looking forward to he GRSC CRS, but that, too, is hampered by a poorly lit reticle, and, of course, poor Chinese quality.
I hope the market sees many more quality, reliable, well-built do-it-all low variable power optics. However, I remain skeptical.
Without daytime visible lit reticle, it is hard to consider it a serious optic IMO. I was looking forward to he GRSC CRS, but that, too, is hampered by a poorly lit reticle, and, of course, poor Chinese quality.
I hope the market sees many more quality, reliable, well-built do-it-all low variable power optics. However, I remain skeptical.
I am too looking forward to the GRSC. What do you mean "Without daytime visible lit reticle"? I turn it on and it can act as a red dot dat or night.
I am too looking forward to the GRSC. What do you mean "Without daytime visible lit reticle"? I turn it on and it can act as a red dot dat or night.
You can do that in very bright sunlight? If so, you are the first to report being able to do so. It is common knowledge that the dot on the Short Dot is Aimpoint bright. As far as this Swarovoski is concerned, it has been claimed to be Aimpoint bright but so far nobody has been able to post a picture of the reticle being usable in bright sunlight. There was a reveiw done with pictures posted with the poster stating the reticle is much brighter than the pictures show. Said his picture skills were lacking. I am not doubting his word, seems like a straight forward guy. But I do know for a fact, lousy picture taking skills and all, many including myself, have posted pictures of a clearly visible dot in bright sunlight with the Short Dot.
Alaskapopo
12-18-07, 16:40
Read the review attached to my first post. Its daylight visible.
Pat
Read the review attached to my first post. Its daylight visible.
Pat
Are you and Shihan the same person? I ask that since I quoted him not you and you might find he was talking about a completely different scope. As for the review you linked I am involved in that thread also. If you look at my questions to Paulsantos and his responses we might be at an agree to disagree point. He says, and I have no reason to doubt him that the reticle on the Swaroski is daylight visible. That it is indeed brighter than his pictures indicate. Later he states that it is visible but not as overwhelming as an Aimpoint or Eotech dot. In my probably incorrect opinion, that overwhelming brightness of the Aimpoint is what lets it excel at what it was intended to do. Swarovski is not in the tactical market, this scope was not intended for what many of us are hoping it will do.
Alaskapopo
12-18-07, 17:53
Are you and Shihan the same person? I ask that since I quoted him not you and you might find he was talking about a completely different scope. As for the review you linked I am involved in that thread also. If you look at my questions to Paulsantos and his responses we might be at an agree to disagree point. He says, and I have no reason to doubt him that the reticle on the Swaroski is daylight visible. That it is indeed brighter than his pictures indicate. Later he states that it is visible but not as overwhelming as an Aimpoint or Eotech dot. In my probably incorrect opinion, that overwhelming brightness of the Aimpoint is what lets it excel at what it was intended to do. Swarovski is not in the tactical market, this scope was not intended for what many of us are hoping it will do.
I am not Shihan. Also the Short dot is not as bright as the Eotech and Aimpoint either. The S&B is an wonderful optic with a proven track record like you said but I am willing to try the Swaroski due to the advantages it offers. (mainly greater magnificaiton which means greater versatility).
I am not sure why you are so dead set against a new product coming out. I would almost think you make a living selling the Short Dot and don't want the competition. Lol. Anyway when the scope arrives I will post my own review.
Pat
Sidewinder6
12-18-07, 19:50
Anyone been using the Millet DMS-1? I know they had some QC problems but I picked one up anyway. It has a little spec on the inside lens but Betty at Millett discounted it so much on top of my dealer discount it was almost free:D . I havent shot with it yet and was wondering how they are holding up?
Yup. I picked one from a guy here who decided he no longer wanted his.
In a day or two, I will take see if I can get a couple pics of the reticle and mount.
Im not planning on heavy/hard use (Planning be an operative word here) . I love the Short Dot and the Mark IV but dont want to more than double the cost of my carbine. At least I am resisting until I break this one :)
You have UPSGuy all wrong: He loves new products. In fact, he changes his set up more often than some folks change clothes. He is ridiculously optimistic when it omes to new gear, and he has no problem putting his money where his mouth is--that is, as long as his wife doesn't find out about it.
What I believe he is attempting to do is "skim the fat". That is, separate fact from opinion for those that are looking for an optic of this sort due to a serious need (ie work, as opposed to paper punching), that really can't afford to be misled on such a large purchase (at least on an LEO salary--ask me how I know...:rolleyes: ).
So, don't take it personal. Some of us just want to get down to the nitty gritty. So far, the only "dope" on this scope is on Swarovski's website, and a couple of posts from folks that purchased them, and have not been able to take pictures that show just how well the reticle shows up in different lighting conditions, or put them through the wringer as so many have been able to do with their S&B Short Dots.
This is not about company loyalty, this is about getting down to the meat and potatoes.
Are you and Shihan the same person? I ask that since I quoted him not you and you might find he was talking about a completely different scope. As for the review you linked I am involved in that thread also. If you look at my questions to Paulsantos and his responses we might be at an agree to disagree point. He says, and I have no reason to doubt him that the reticle on the Swaroski is daylight visible. That it is indeed brighter than his pictures indicate. Later he states that it is visible but not as overwhelming as an Aimpoint or Eotech dot. In my probably incorrect opinion, that overwhelming brightness of the Aimpoint is what lets it excel at what it was intended to do. Swarovski is not in the tactical market, this scope was not intended for what many of us are hoping it will do.
Hey dont mistake him for me. I would freeze to death where hes at.
Also the Short dot is not as bright as the Eotech and Aimpoint either.
Pat
Were do you get this info? Because in my experience it is not correct.
Anyone been using the Millet DMS-1? I know they had some QC problems but I picked one up anyway. It has a little spec on the inside lens but Betty at Millett discounted it so much on top of my dealer discount it was almost free:D . I havent shot with it yet and was wondering how they are holding up?
I got one with the problems. As a matter of fact, I was the guy who brought it to their attention, as I was one of the first to receive one off that run.
My scope was replaced very quickly, but others were not so fortunate. My replacement was CRYSTAL clear.
Tje DMS is highly under-rated. It comes from the same people doing the GRSC.
I like what I have in my DMS-1. It hold Zero, takes abuse, and the illuminaton is good. I am not afraid toi beat it up, and it performs as good as anything I have tried.
Admittedly, I do recognized the difference in quality vs. high end scopes, but the DMS-1 is an excellent value. My mount cost more!
Alaskapopo
12-19-07, 00:27
Were do you get this info? Because in my experience it is not correct.
Well honestly it is what I read in the reviews on forums like this.
pat
Thank you Damian for answering most correctly in my absense. I have bought a lot of gear that was supposed to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. Much of it does nothing other than lighten ones wallet and look very cool in pictures on TOS. One of the few that lived up to the hype IMO is the Short Dot. I do not sell optics for S&B or anyone else. I am a UPS driver that gives much of the money my wife and son don't claim (or know about) to Steve at Adco Firearms.
Alaskapopo, I have no beef with you at all. But if you reread all of what you quoted of me, especially the last line that says "this scope was not intended for what many (that includes me dude) of us are hoping it will do." If you read that again not thinking I am a S&B sales person or shill you will see that Damian's assesment is spot on, he knows me. The other slight issue I have is that you are using what other people have said as your basis for fact or opinion. Such as the Short Dot isn't Aimpoint bright as an example, or Paulsantos review of the Swarvoski. I believe the originators of this forum wanted it to be a little different than some other forums by having us tell of what we know to be true. I can tell you for a fact the Short dot that was on my SBR is indeed Aimpoint bright. As soon as the local Cabelas gets one of the Swarvoski 1-6s in stock I will check it out for myself and report what I know.
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/940/vltorddliterail007bk7.jpg
This extremely lousy and embarrassing picture was taken of my Short Dot on a very bright day at setting 9 of 11.
Let's see: A terrible picture of a truly bright reticle on a bright day...
That reticle is exponentially brighter than the Swarovski reticle picture that was taken on someone's porch, focused on a dark target, now isn't it? Anyone starting to see my point?
Alaskapopo
12-19-07, 18:27
You have UPSGuy all wrong: He loves new products. In fact, he changes his set up more often than some folks change clothes. He is ridiculously optimistic when it omes to new gear, and he has no problem putting his money where his mouth is--that is, as long as his wife doesn't find out about it.
What I believe he is attempting to do is "skim the fat". That is, separate fact from opinion for those that are looking for an optic of this sort due to a serious need (ie work, as opposed to paper punching), that really can't afford to be misled on such a large purchase (at least on an LEO salary--ask me how I know...:rolleyes: ).
So, don't take it personal. Some of us just want to get down to the nitty gritty. So far, the only "dope" on this scope is on Swarovski's website, and a couple of posts from folks that purchased them, and have not been able to take pictures that show just how well the reticle shows up in different lighting conditions, or put them through the wringer as so many have been able to do with their S&B Short Dots.
This is not about company loyalty, this is about getting down to the meat and potatoes.
I did not take it personally. Sorry if I came off like I did. I am a leo and I am not rich. But this scope seems to have what I have been looking for. I know its best to wait when a new product is released but I am excited about what this scope offers. I am willing to risk it especially at the discount Swarovski is offering leo's.
Thanks for your advice it is appreciated.
pat
Alaskapopo, since you are LEO and I think are planning on using this on a duty weapon(??) you might want to look at this thread: http://https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7604
Check out the 2nd to last post, it is by 2011BLDR who is a real deal, been there done that guy and also given the industry insider title. If the things he points out are less important than the 6x magnification then you just might have a winner in this scope.
Above all else, stay safe out there.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7604
Fixed the link for you..
Does anyone have any experience with the Kahles Helia C 1.1-4x24 (model 51602)?
Opinions, Pros/Cons, durability?
I found one for $600, worth it or not?
Thanks in advance.
Follow the above link, read 2011BLDR's comments and decide if it is right for you.
EricCartmann
01-14-08, 15:40
Lots of press and sticky's here for the S&B. But too much money for me.
For the price of one S&B, I can buy an ACOG TA11F, a Aimpoint ML3, a case of 5.56, and still have a couple of hundred of dollars left over.
I love Aimpoints/Eotechs. For me they are very accurate out to 200 yards and nothing is easier and nothing is faster.
But I am also a ACOG junkie. I just love looking through the glass of an ACOG. The world just seems so much brighter and clearer with an ACOG. In low light conditions (such as at night and only having street lamps for illumination) is where the ACOG shines. The FOV of an ACOG (TA11, TA01NSN) is also just awesome for a compact package.
I myself think I would rather just leave the ACOG on the rifle while having the Aimpoint in the pouch in standby mode. If both have QD levers, changing them will probably just as fast as changing a mag.
I myself think I would rather just leave the ACOG on the rifle while having the Aimpoint in the pouch in standby mode. If both have QD levers, changing them will probably just as fast as changing a mag.
You must really suck at mag changes then.
EricCartmann
01-14-08, 15:49
You must really suck at mag changes then.
either that or i am really fast at changing out optics ;)
Alaskapopo
01-14-08, 16:43
Lots of press and sticky's here for the S&B. But too much money for me.
For the price of one S&B, I can buy an ACOG TA11F, a Aimpoint ML3, a case of 5.56, and still have a couple of hundred of dollars left over.
I love Aimpoints/Eotechs. For me they are very accurate out to 200 yards and nothing is easier and nothing is faster.
But I am also a ACOG junkie. I just love looking through the glass of an ACOG. The world just seems so much brighter and clearer with an ACOG. In low light conditions (such as at night and only having street lamps for illumination) is where the ACOG shines. The FOV of an ACOG (TA11, TA01NSN) is also just awesome for a compact package.
I myself think I would rather just leave the ACOG on the rifle while having the Aimpoint in the pouch in standby mode. If both have QD levers, changing them will probably just as fast as changing a mag.
The whole point of a good variable power optic is versatility. It is both an Aimpoint and a ACOG in one scope. Also I tried the route of keeping a spare optic on Larue mounts in my patrol bag. It does not work. You will not have time of space to carry two optics. Also if you can't reload faster than you can change optics you need to take a remedial rifle course. A good reload can be done in about 2 seconds an optics swap is going to take about 30 seconds.
Pat
The whole point of a good variable power optic is versatility. It is both an Aimpoint and a ACOG in one scope. Also I tried the route of keeping a spare optic on Larue mounts in my patrol bag. It does not work. You will not have time of space to carry two optics. Also if you can't reload faster than you can change optics you need to take a remedial rifle course. A good reload can be done in about 2 seconds an optics swap is going to take about 30 seconds.
Pat
Agree. Aimpoints are really good for targets out to say 100yds and ACOG's are really good from 100yds-250yds.
1-4's really allow you to do everything pretty well and there is no need to have remove anything from your weapon.
C4
EricCartmann
01-14-08, 17:16
The whole point of a good variable power optic is versatility. It is both an Aimpoint and a ACOG in one scope. Also I tried the route of keeping a spare optic on Larue mounts in my patrol bag. It does not work. You will not have time of space to carry two optics. Also if you can't reload faster than you can change optics you need to take a remedial rifle course. A good reload can be done in about 2 seconds an optics swap is going to take about 30 seconds.
Pat
I myself think the S&B will be neither as good as an Aimpoint or an ACOG. I see your point in it is a great compromise between the 2, but it's a compromise you are paying $600 more for.
I think a better compromise would be the flip away magnifier + aimpoint. Only bad thing with this compromise is that the added weight of 1100 extra dollars in my pocket.
So 30 seconds to change the optic was not enough? Would you not make sure you have the right optic on your gun before the mission? When would you have to change optics mid mission? And even if you did, would 30 seconds not be enough?
After looking at some mag change vids on Youtube, I will be the first to admit I am slow at changing mags. I think I will spend 4 hours tonight practicing doing that while watching TV.
I myself think the S&B will be neither as good as an Aimpoint or an ACOG. I see your point in it is a great compromise between the 2, but it's a compromise you are paying $600 more for.
I think a better compromise would be the flip away magnifier + aimpoint. Only bad thing with this compromise is that the added weight of 1100 extra dollars in my pocket.
So 30 seconds to change the optic was not enough? Would you not make sure you have the right optic on your gun before the mission? When would you have to change optics mid mission? And even if you did, would 30 seconds not be enough?
After looking at some reloading vids on Youtube, I can see I am pretty slow at reloading. I think I will spend 4 hours tonight practicing doing that while watching TV.
How much time do you have with a Short Dot? While a 1.1X is not equal to a 1X, it damn close.
C4
EricCartmann
01-14-08, 17:45
How much time do you have with a Short Dot? While a 1.1X is not equal to a 1X, it damn close.
C4
No experience here with the Shortdot, only experience I have with 1-4x optics are IOR's and Millets... and I also got to sample a Nightforce. Granted I know the Shortdot is a better quality optic compared to these, but in general they are all the same. Limited FOV in 4x mode and eye relief on a 1x mode is not infinate.
I am sure I can learn to love Shortdot, but to me nothing is easier than an Aimpoint/Eotech. For 4x mag, nothing beats the glass and FOV of an ACOG. Best of all I could own both of these and have about $600 left over.
Alaskapopo
01-14-08, 18:18
I myself think the S&B will be neither as good as an Aimpoint or an ACOG. I see your point in it is a great compromise between the 2, but it's a compromise you are paying $600 more for.
I think a better compromise would be the flip away magnifier + aimpoint. Only bad thing with this compromise is that the added weight of 1100 extra dollars in my pocket.
So 30 seconds to change the optic was not enough? Would you not make sure you have the right optic on your gun before the mission? When would you have to change optics mid mission? And even if you did, would 30 seconds not be enough?
After looking at some mag change vids on Youtube, I will be the first to admit I am slow at changing mags. I think I will spend 4 hours tonight practicing doing that while watching TV.
Why would you change optics mid mission? Easy. You are on a perimeter team where having magnification is nice. Suddenly the entry team needs your help now magnification is not so nice. A flip mounted magnifier is another option but they are not cheap either.
Pat
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=4209
davemcdonald
01-14-08, 19:04
Agree. Aimpoints are really good for targets out to say 100yds and ACOG's are really good from 100yds-250yds.
1-4's really allow you to do everything pretty well and there is no need to have remove anything from your weapon.
C4
I'm with Grant on this one. I have Aimpoint, Trijicon and ShortDot covered in my collection with chingos of trigger time with all three. ShortDot is the way to go. There are two types of people when it comes to AR optics: Those with a ShortDot and those that wished their wives would let them spend the money to get a ShortDot.:D
Dave
chingos = 1 metric asston or time equivalent
EricCartmann
01-14-08, 19:09
Why would you change optics mid mission? Easy. You are on a perimeter team where having magnification is nice. Suddenly the entry team needs your help now magnification is not so nice. A flip mounted magnifier is another option but they are not cheap either.
Pat
I just want to start by saying I am not trying to be argumentive here ;)
Say if the entry team does call you in, you can't spend that extra 15 seconds swapping ACOG for Aimpoint (via QD mounts) before going in? I am sure the delay in the call coming in will be much more greater than that 15 seconds.
Now my choice would be the swap method since I love ACOGs so much....
But I can fully understand if you want everything on the gun. The Aimpoint + flip to the side Magnifier is a much better option and it is about $1000 cheaper to boot! For CQB we all agree the Aimpoint is easiest and fastest. The Aimpoint also has a 5 year battery life where the S&B only has 1 day batter life. Aimpoint has been proven to be very durable. I think the durability of the S&B is still questionable.
Since we all like to play Murphy's Law, I say the battery failure on the S&B is much more deadly than that 15 seconds you took swapping optics.
EricCartmann
01-14-08, 19:14
I'm with Grant on this one. I have Aimpoint, Trijicon and ShortDot covered in my collection with chingos of trigger time with all three. ShortDot is the way to go. There are two types of people when it comes to AR optics: Those with a ShortDot and those that wished their wives would let them spend the money to get a ShortDot.:D
Dave
chingos = 1 metric asston or time equivalent
Or in my case, those that wished they have enough money to get a Short Dot.
I know it is a good optic, but for $2000 I think not. YMMV
Also it is not like ACOGs, Aimpoint, or Aimpoint Magnifiers are chinese cheap optcs. These have all been combat tested and all are made in the USA.
No experience here with the Shortdot...
At this time, I'd suggest a refresher of our mission statement on this site. With no experience with the optic you are denegrating, you're quite a bit outside you're lane.
A Millet or IOR is not an S&B and they have myriad differences that can not be explained away as "I tried this other optic once and it should be close enough to compare it...."
Sorry. It's simply not going to play out that way on this site.
EricCartmann
01-14-08, 19:58
At this time, I'd suggest a refresher of our mission statement on this site. With no experience with the optic you are denegrating, you're quite a bit outside you're lane.
A Millet or IOR is not an S&B and they have myriad differences that can not be explained away as "I tried this other optic once and it should be close enough to compare it...."
Sorry. It's simply not going to play out that way on this site.
I am not degenerating anything. I am sure the glass is well worth the price of admission. I have found high price optics never dissapoint. I am just asking questions is all, and commenting facts... how about that 1 day battery life. :)
Ok no more from me about the Short Dot. But can I talk about 1-4x optics in general? :)
Alaskapopo
01-14-08, 20:03
I just want to start by saying I am not trying to be argumentive here ;)
Say if the entry team does call you in, you can't spend that extra 15 seconds swapping ACOG for Aimpoint (via QD mounts) before going in? I am sure the delay in the call coming in will be much more greater than that 15 seconds.
.
Well if it was you who were wounded and needed help now would you want me to wait 15 extra seconds before I came in to help. A lot can happen in 15 seconds.
Pat
davemcdonald
01-14-08, 20:16
I don't know anything about a one day battery life. I have had my ShortDot for a year. It is still using the same battery that it shipped with and it still has the original spare battery as well. The ShortDot has an auto shut off for those of us that are absent minded. I bought plenty of spare batteries for my ShortDot at Costco for "just in case" and have yet to open the package. It has seen range time somewhere between 2 to 4 days a month over the last year and has been to one advanced carbine class. If you are getting this optic for work , ie LE, Mil or Gov then there are some significant discounts to be had from Schmidt and Bender USA.
But can I talk about 1-4x optics in general?
Stick closely to the exact optics with which you have spent quality time. We have some pretty experienced users on this board and we strive to keep the signal-to-noise ratio very high.
Currently, your comparisons are clouding an issue with a stunningly low depth of knowledge on the subject.
I own both a Leupold 1-5 and S&B 1-4. I can tell you that even between these two, they are not close to equal. There is more in contrast than there are similarities. I like the Leupold for it's price tag and 90% solution to the S&B. However, the illuminated reticle washes out on light backgrounds fairly easily, which immediately shifts it to 2nd flight for universal use.
Also, I've personally been on range with an S&B short dot that lasted at least 3 days of a carbine class running the dot full time each day. So I'm curious of your source for 1 day battery life??
EricCartmann
01-14-08, 20:51
....
Also, I've personally been on range with an S&B short dot that lasted at least 3 days of a carbine class running the dot full time each day. So I'm curious of your source for 1 day battery life??
1 day was a slight understatment. But 100 hours (4 days) is not. That's what it says on S&B's website. It says 50,000 hours on Aimpoints website.
Alaskapopo
01-14-08, 21:02
1 day was a slight understatment. But 100 hours (4 days) is not. That's what it says on S&B's website. It says 50,000 hours on Aimpoints website.
With all due respect you seem to make a habit out of making huge understatments and false assumptions. On another web site you claimed stainless AR barrels only last 5000 rounds. Its always best to stop and research a topic so you can give an informed opinion instead of a false assumption that simply spreads false information.
Pat
This thread will get back on topic with factual discussion, or it will be locked.
Possibly followed by at least one account. This is precisely the type of thing that will not be condoned on this website.
Especially in a thread where facts, and firsthand experiences are so easy to post with....
No experience here with the Shortdot, only experience I have with 1-4x optics are IOR's and Millets... and I also got to sample a Nightforce. Granted I know the Shortdot is a better quality optic compared to these, but in general they are all the same. Limited FOV in 4x mode and eye relief on a 1x mode is not infinate.
I am sure I can learn to love Shortdot, but to me nothing is easier than an Aimpoint/Eotech. For 4x mag, nothing beats the glass and FOV of an ACOG. Best of all I could own both of these and have about $600 left over.
First hand knowledge is king on this forum. If you do not have any experience (like owning one), then you should not compare/contrast the abilities with another cheap optic.
The S&B SD is the SUV of the optics world. Capable of doing most anything and doing it well. This is why SF groups like Delta run them.
C4
Short Dot is the standard of comparison to which all others are held. The Meopta K Dot is a nice alternative for it's price range. The Millett DMS is also a consideration depending on purpose and need. These things are relative for the shooter and the actual intent of the weapon system. Match the tool to your needs accordingly, but understand that comparison is relative. Cheap optics are just that.
I don't know anything about a one day battery life. I have had my ShortDot for a year. It is still using the same battery that it shipped with and it still has the original spare battery as well. The ShortDot has an auto shut off for those of us that are absent minded. I bought plenty of spare batteries for my ShortDot at Costco for "just in case" and have yet to open the package. It has seen range time somewhere between 2 to 4 days a month over the last year and has been to one advanced carbine class. If you are getting this optic for work , ie LE, Mil or Gov then there are some significant discounts to be had from Schmidt and Bender USA.
When running your ShortDot outdoors, do you always use the illumination feature for the reticule?
When running your ShortDot outdoors, do you always use the illumination feature for the reticule?
no....its usually off
Erick Gelhaus
01-22-08, 10:10
Jmart-
I do, probably about 90-95% of the time.
no....its usually off
Let me clarify. If at 1x then it's usually on however above that usually off.
YukonGlocker
02-09-08, 11:55
What's the consensus on the Burris XTR-14?
It's available with, or without, the reflex sight.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f292/YukonGlocker/Burris.jpg
The new XTR looks like a interesting option in the world of 1-4's. Good reticule, good glass.
I was very impressed with the XTR at the SHOT show. The reticule seemed to be able to get on target quick for close distances but with the fine crosshairs for longer shots. My only complaint was that they wouldn't sell me their display model :D
I was very impressed with the XTR at the SHOT show. The reticule seemed to be able to get on target quick for close distances but with the fine crosshairs for longer shots. My only complaint was that they wouldn't sell me their display model :D
I have been looking at these for a while now (have come along way). This maybe a good option for shooters.
C4
YukonGlocker
02-09-08, 16:14
I have been looking at these for a while now (have come along way). This maybe a good option for shooters.
C4
Is there anything you don't like about it?
Is there anything you don't like about it?
I have not gotten any trigger time behind one so I cannot say just yet. I generally like my scopes to be TRUE 1.1X (don't think this is) and 2nd focal plane (don't think this is).
C4
Jay Cunningham
02-09-08, 16:29
I generally like my scopes to be Short Dot's.
Fixed it for ya.
;)
Fixed it for ya.
;)
Doesn't everyone??
I am ALWAYS in search of a good economical 1-4 that I can recommend to people.
Paul (of Bravo Company) must have walked around shot for HOURS looking at scopes. A company out of WI has something coming out about mid-year that is going to be made by the same company that make Night Force's 1-4. Should be interesting.
C4
So is it just me or is that a rip off of the GRSC reticle?
Im not sure about having a fast fire on the top of a 1-4X.
So is it just me or is that a rip off of the GRSC reticle?
GRSC horseshoe coupled with Burris' Ballistiplex reticle on the vertical crosshair, and a mil scale on the horizontal cross hair. Kind if a kluge of various reticule styles actually.
Im not sure about having a fast fire on the top of a 1-4X.
That's just an option. Burris offers the scope w/o the Fastfire also. I could maybe see keeping bthe scope at 4x for intermediate/long range work where target ID and holdovers become an issue, but just using the unmagnified holograph sight for close-in work.
Kind of makes me wonder why they didn't just go with a fixed 4x instead of the variable. Not sure if the illumination is visible in daylight.
That's just an option. Burris offers the scope w/o the Fastfire also. I could maybe see keeping bthe scope at 4x for intermediate/long range work where target ID and holdovers become an issue, but just using the unmagnified holograph sight for close-in work.
Kind of makes me wonder why they didn't just go with a fixed 4x instead of the variable. Not sure if the illumination is visible in daylight.
Good point. Any idea of the MSRP on both options?
I think $599 for just the scope, and another $150 or so for the added Fastfire, according to Midway (not the best prices, I'll concede). They list the Fastfire option as including matte rings. These of course would be Burris rings. They appear to be the Xtra-High versions that Burris sells.
I'm not sure if there's an option where you could still go with Burris' rings, but select a lower height. I wuld like the option to pair this setup with a riser/extension mount, either a LaRue QD mount, or a YHM fixed mount. But I've found I like my scopes positioned a bit farther fwd on the flat top and I need an extension base to push the scope farther fwd. Well in addition to pushing it fwd, it also raises it .25 - .33" or so, so you need to compensate with a shorter ring. The Xtra-High rings I staretd out with ended up being too tall when mounted to the extension base. I ended up dropping down to the Medium height rings to get everyjhting the way I liked it, that was with a 2-7X Fullfield II model, 1" tube.
Now the question is if I replace my newly warranty replaced DMS-1? With the fast fire feature I would like to use a ADM Recon-X mount but it might not be possible. Maybe I should stop being cheap and by the Short Dot that keeps calling my name? I was going to buy a Masada or SCAR but maybe instead of buying another platform when im already heavily vested in the AR I should just by better optics? Damn decisions!
DMS is great for the$$$$$
I recently handled a Millet DMS and I liked what I saw to include the price, even though I'm a "get what you pay for type of guy". Anyone had one in extreme conditions yet, like the desert, jungle or very cold?
Seth Harness
03-15-08, 12:43
Grant, PM sent reguarding Horus Talon.
Long_Range
03-22-08, 23:07
I have not gotten any trigger time behind one so I cannot say just yet. I generally like my scopes to be TRUE 1.1X (don't think this is) and 2nd focal plane (don't think this is).
C4
You are right about the Burris XTR 14 not being a true 1.1X. It is 1X according to the Burris rep I spoke with today, and it appeared to be just that with the scope I looked through. :D
It also has a second focal plane reticle. You can see in their add that the BDC only works at 4X magnification on page 11 of this thread.
Long Range
Rmplstlskn
03-23-08, 08:54
DMS is great for the$$$$$
I just got one of your "blem" Millet DMS-1 scopes and could not be happier for the $179 spent... If there was a speck in that glass, I couldn't see it...
Also picked up a CAA mount for it...
All I needed was a decent 1-4x illuminated scope for a SPR I have, but did not want to swing the 1.5k to 2k needed for top-tier glass...
http://www.millettsights.com//images/2007/dms_2008_2.jpg
So for just a hair above $200 I have just want I needed for range work and the occasional rifle match... Time will tell if it will hold up, and I may splurge for a Larue SPR-E mount soon, but so far it is the exact solution I needed at this time...
Rmpl
I also just got one of the "blem" Millet DMS-1 scopes and I am very happy for the 178.00 shipped price. It came to me NIB and still wrapped in the factory plastic. I matched it up in a larue SPS-S and mounted the unit on my Noveske 13.7 Infidel. After a day at the range I have been very impressed with the scope's clarity and the Illuminated circle/dot reticle but i could not find the so called blemish. For those on a budget (like me):D it might be worth a look.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e340/bigsarg99/SA400072.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e340/bigsarg99/SA400060.jpg
Shihan check with ssf467
Thanks, I was wondering if this was a factory thing as im a factory direct dealer and would have bought a bunch of them.
I went into my local gunshop (Nick's Shooting Range in Garyville, LA- good shop!) planning on ordering a Millet DMS. Since I was putting it on a Marlin Camp Carbine temporarily he suggested I try a Konus 1.5 - 5 instead. Its 1/3 the price of the Millet, and is a very good scope for the money. Its not illuminated but does have a nice reticle with a diamond center. If you're a shooter on a very tight budget give one a try...
http://www.konusscopes.com/product/KON7249
Just found this 12-page thread ! ! ! :eek:
All great stuff I'm sure, but talk about information overload. :confused:
Is there any general concensus as to one or two models that are considered to be the best for all-around general-purpose use (CQB out to ~200 yards)?
Also, any preferred/reputable sources?
Thanks.
Just found this 12-page thread ! ! ! :eek:
All great stuff I'm sure, but talk about information overload. :confused:
Is there any general concensus as to one or two models that are considered to be the best for all-around general-purpose use (CQB out to ~200 yards)?
Also, any preferred/reputable sources?
Thanks.
The two kings are the S&B Short Dot and the Nightforce.
C4
The two kings are the S&B Short Dot and the Nightforce.
C4
Thanks Grant. Knew I could count on you for a good steer. Shall check'um out.
Carried by GandR ???
Thanks Grant. Knew I could count on you for a good steer. Shall check'um out.
Carried by GandR ???
We do not carry either actually.
C4
We do not carry either actually.
Oh well....:( :( :(
I'm looking at descriptions now.
2 big differences between the Short Dot and the Nightforce. One is cost, you can almost buy 2 Nightforces for the price of the Short Dot. Second, the dot in the Short Dot reticle is Aimpoint bright can be seen under all lighting conditions. Unless it has been changed recently the Nightforce's dot is not that bright. In my worthless opinion the Short Dot is one of the few items that lives up to all the hype. I would buy another in a heartbeat.
Another viable choice is an Aimpoint backed up by the Aimpoint 3X in the Larue pivoting mount. Might want to do some researching here and on other forums for USMC03's posts. He has done excellant reviews on optics used in the heat of battle. Zak Smith has also, the two of them are shooting buddies.
2 big differences between the Short Dot and the Nightforce. One is cost, you can almost buy 2 Nightforces for the price of the Short Dot......
Looks like the Trijicon Accupoint is also going for a lot less.
.....Another viable choice is an Aimpoint backed up by the Aimpoint 3X in the Larue pivoting mount......
Definitely my alternate route. I'm going to go ahead an post a separate thread here spelling out my current situation. Shall see what perspectives emerge.
I'm seeing a lot of good things about the Millet DMS, including the price! :D
Rmplstlskn
04-01-08, 22:19
I'm seeing a lot of good things about the Millet DMS, including the price! :D
It is what it is.... a good optic at an affordable price.
Would I take the DMS-1 into combat? No...
Would I use it on a LEO Carbine for duty work? No...
Would I attempt to become a top-notch 3-gun shooter with it? Maybe, since life and limb are not at risk...
Could it do all of the above? Probably, but much better is available.
My SPR sees use at a range and an occasional competition, nothing more. The Millet DMS-1 is PERFECT for this use since it does the job without breaking the bank account.
Rmpl
CarlosDJackal
04-05-08, 12:01
I sure wish S&B would bring the price of their Short Dots down. Anyone know if they have any LE or Military discounts? If so, could you PM me this information?
I just got a T-1 and have been considering using it on a 1 o'clock offset mount in conjunction with a 1-4x optic. Has anyone extensively used a setup like?
Jay Cunningham
04-05-08, 12:05
I sure wish S&B would bring the price of their Short Dots down. Anyone know if they have any LE or Military discounts? If so, could you PM me this information?
I just got a T-1 and have been considering using it on a 1 o'clock offset mount in conjunction with a 1-4x optic. Has anyone extensively used a setup like?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13225
I just got a T-1 and have been considering using it on a 1 o'clock offset mount in conjunction with a 1-4x optic. Has anyone extensively used a setup like?
If I was going to go that route I would beef up the power on the scope. A 1X does you no good if you have another mounted at 1:00.
losbronces
04-06-08, 00:24
If I was going to go that route I would beef up the power on the scope. A 1X does you no good if you have another mounted at 1:00.
I bought a DD mount and H1 from GandRTactical, but for use with a 4X ACOG. That provides "instant" switching between 4X and the H1 red dot.
CarlosDJackal
04-06-08, 08:22
If I was going to go that route I would beef up the power on the scope. A 1X does you no good if you have another mounted at 1:00.
Why? :confused:
CarlosDJackal
04-06-08, 08:22
I bought a DD mount and H1 from GandRTactical, but for use with a 4X ACOG. That provides "instant" switching between 4X and the H1 red dot.
Have you managed to use it in Competition and/or a Carbine Course? How does it work?
Alaskapopo
04-06-08, 08:27
Why? :confused:
Because you already have a relatively quick scope with a variable set at 1x. You can very little if anything from having a 1x reflex sight on the side of the scope. It just adds weight and bulk. On a 3x9 or higher magnificiation scope it makes sense.
Pat
losbronces
04-06-08, 10:49
Have you managed to use it in Competition and/or a Carbine Course? How does it work?
The soonest I might have a chance to test it will be in May. I'm stuck in South America for awhile...
CarlosDJackal
04-06-08, 21:16
Because you already have a relatively quick scope with a variable set at 1x. You can very little if anything from having a 1x reflex sight on the side of the scope. It just adds weight and bulk. On a 3x9 or higher magnificiation scope it makes sense.
Pat
Maybe it's because I have no experience with the Short Dots; but how do they handle in CQB situations in comparison with a Red Dot scope?
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