View Full Version : M4 Quality Standards Question
Ok. I have a question for the aficionados here. First. I've been a gun buff for over forty years but never owned an AR even though I've got other guns in .223 - bolt guns, Mini-14s, you know the drill. Now, because I figured it was about time I see what all the fuss was about, I just bought a new LE6920CA - M4 Carbine roll mark (yes, I live in the gold dust state) a decision based largely on what I've read on this forum. I can see now why all the fuss about the Colts, it's a very nice weapon. Now I think I want a 2nd one but perhaps another brand for a little variety. Here's where the howling will start. I understand that BCM is par excellence in most of your eyes and I wouldn't mind pursuing one of those but I am intrigued by the Windham story. You know - BM is sold to big corp. and people loose jobs, plant site closes, quality suffers, previous owner buys back plant, rehires laid off workers, claims new product is better than ever etc. Now I have used a friends older BM and it was a very nice carbine indeed. I've read through all of the threads here that I could find re Windham but I do not see any empirical evidence as to why Windham is so inferior compared to the standard (Colt/BCM). So tell me please, why, according to their own specs, the Windham does not sufficiently measure up? Are they, or are they not, as good or better than the early BM specimens? Any first hand knowledge?
http://www.windhamweaponry.com/pdf/TechSheets/MPC-CA%201-10-12NP.pdf
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/specification/bcm_m4_mod1.php
Thanks guys for the indulgance
Windham is going to suffer from the sins of the father (bushmaster) for quite some time until they prove that the Leopard changed their spots. Among other things, Bushmaster was famous for making misleading claims, such as marking EVERY bolt hpt/mpi when in fact they were batch tested. Whether you think hpt/mpi is valid or not is immaterial. Another example is their use of the term 4150 and I don't think we ever got clear confirmation if that 4150 meets the spec or not.
Buyer beware, IMO, until they prove themselves. Personally I wouldn't want the 1:9 barrel anyway.
I see they have an MSRP of $1,111. I can get a NIB 6920 for <$1k real world. What is a Windham going for in the stores?
High 800 low 900 range around my part of the sticks.
You don't even need to buy it or shoot it as you can hold it in your hands and feel that its junk then look at it and see that its junk.
Poor finish work, crap FCG and a host of other 'little things'.
Like the one I touched didn't have the A2 rear sight properly calibrated. It just jammed up at the 6/3 mark
Buffer spring sounds bad in the receiver extension when charged. Like beer can dragging on concrete sidewalk bad.
chamber143
04-22-12, 13:23
Being new to ar's, you aren't sure what quality is with ar's. I have a BM that I bought 12 years ago and it was my first ar. I started to experience some issues around 3-4 thousand rounds and although they were small issues...they pissed me off. Since I have purchased two BCM rifles and I will say with 100% honesty, if I bought a Windham rifle over a Bravo, I'd just take it to the car and shoot myself with it. Trust the members on here. The BCM is a tremendous rifle for the price and BM is shit. Just trust.
if I bought a Windham rifle over a Bravo, I'd just take it to the car and shoot myself with it.
Wouldn't it be more cost effective to just walk a cartridge into the store instead?
Easier on the upholstery too.
chamber143
04-22-12, 13:32
Wouldn't it be more cost effective to just walk a cartridge into the store instead?
Easier on the upholstery too.
Possiblly would but I wouldn't want to scare anyone. All jokes aside Windham/BM is so subpar now to what is available it's just not even funny. Store I go to some had a BM xm15 yesterday for 1050. I bout shit myself. The guy said they sell so many of them that they won't ever consider running them on sell. I just couldn't believe what I was hearing. But like many have said before, why make a better product when a sub par product sells like hotcakes.
There is one possibility that could be playing into the Windham thing right now: they may be using up old inventory to get going, then start making thier own of different quality.
Somehow I doubt it, but not too much of a stretch if they bought lock stock and barrel.
Poor idea if thats what they are doing though as they'll end up with a bad rep before they even get going to any large scale level, in which case they may not make it to large scale.
Or even exist as a manufacturer for any real length of time for that matter unless mabe there's a huge slew of EOTWAWKI sales this summer and fall where sheeple will take anything just to have something.
In any event, the BCM is certainly the way to go by a wide margin.
In addition to the known issues pointed out, the long detailed letter I sent to Windham was never answered.
1. Are they using commercial or milspec tubes?
2. Are they staking them properly (they never did in the BM days).
3. Are they staking their BCG's? Are they using auto carriers or do they still have the auto carrier phobia?
4. Are they using 8620 or Carpenter 158 for BCG's.
5. Are they using "F" marked FSB's?
6. What about their previous crappy buffers?
7. Are they still using huge gas ports in their barrels?
chamber143
04-22-12, 14:41
In addition to the known issues pointed out, the long detailed letter I sent to Windham was never answered.
1. Are they using commercial or milspec tubes?
2. Are they staking them properly (they never did in the BM days).
3. Are they staking their BCG's? Are they using auto carriers or do they still have the auto carrier phobia?
4. Are they using 8620 or Carpenter 158 for BCG's.
5. Are they using "F" marked FSB's?
6. What about their previous crappy buffers?
7. Are they still using huge gas ports in their barrels?
I read in a recent gun mag that they are using fa bcg but no mention of staked keys and pictures didn't look staked. So id say no on that one
When I get home I'll look through the article and get as many answers to those as I can
Ah, questions to answer make it easier:
1. Are they using commercial or milspec tubes?
Might be able to find that out for you in the next week or so if I remember to bring calipers to LGS
2. Are they staking them properly (they never did in the BM days).
No. Its in the right spots, but really weak/poor screw head engagement
3. Are they staking their BCG's?
Yes
Are they using auto carriers or do they still have the auto carrier phobia?
SA carrier on the one I handled
4. Are they using 8620 or Carpenter 158 for BCG's.
5. Are they using "F" marked FSB's?
I looked but don't remember righ toff the top of my head.
I 'think' yes, but can double check when looking at receiver extension
6. What about their previous crappy buffers?
Didn't pull it out. Anything particular to look for?
7. Are they still using huge gas ports in their barrels?
I'm guessing the shop isn't going to let me knock apart a FSB to find out
EDIT:
And for the bonus round, no, the castle nut was not staked.
chamber143
04-22-12, 16:48
I think the most important thing to remember is buy known quality cause you know what you are getting. Too much known high quality around to chance it. Go bcm. I would say even dd but they are getting hard to get right now.
From a quick poke around the WW site (http://www.windhamweaponry.com) some random infobits.
*SA appears to be the default carrier with option to get FA
They say they get MPI
*Internally chromed gas key
*No mention of HP/MPI for default or replacement bolt or material made from
*Firing pin 'chrome plated steel'
'Replace with new one if yours is blunt or too sharp' is thier suggested standard
for replacement
*4150 Chrome Moly Vanadium 11595E Steel CL barrels
*No mention of extractor material other than 'highest quality steel'
*Buffer is listed as 'standard carbine with solid weights' and has rollpin holding soft end in
*No mention of receiver extension other than 'fixed' for ban compliance or '6 position for everyone else
*'IF' pix on thier site are of thier actual products, extractor spring looks to be 3-4 turn? (if same same, insert is black and o-ring included)
http://www.windhamweaponry.com/images/8448755.jpg
They are certainly proud of thier rollmark though:
CNC machined 7075-T6 Aluminum Alloy stripped lower receiver (MSRP $180)
Lower Receiver Assembly with Six Position Telestock (MSRP $350)
Reviews from on site (American Rifleman, survival bob, we-shoot-guz, etc) all seem to really really like the finish of the receivers and how the barrels all but match identically in color. Beyond that, no useful info. 2 of the three reviews are identical copy and paste for the first 5 paragraphs or so with one stopping there and the other delving into how it shoots whatever antique ammo the guy had in a locker for the last 20 years or so.
Black teflon mags with Magpul gen 3 anti tilts $20
(same price for 30, 20 and 10 rd capacity...)
.
I'll still be looking at the one in LGS but mabe the able will save at least a little time for some folks.
I handled one at the local Walmart.
I was not impressed at all. Cheap furniture, no staking on the receiver extension, CAR buffer, poorly staked gas key, etc.
I haven't put rounds through one, but I don't need to take a bite of a shit sandwich to know I don't want one.
OP drive on past the Windham and purchase your BCM.
I handled one at the local Walmart.
I was not impressed at all. Cheap furniture, no staking on the receiver extension, CAR buffer, poorly staked gas key, etc.
I haven't put rounds through one, but I don't need to take a bite of a shit sandwich to know I don't want one.
OP drive on past the Windham and purchase your BCM.
I looked at one at the last local gun show, and have a similar impression.
Just my opinion, but Bushmaster's quality slide began long before Freedom Group shut down their factory. So I don't expect much more out of the same people and factory using a new name.
Man you guys are a tuff bunch. :eek: I'm gonna have to watch my step round these here parts! Thanks for all the thoughtful input though. I prefer to invest in only the good stuff.
It is appreciated.
Man you guys are a tuff bunch. :eek: I'm gonna have to watch my step round these here parts! Thanks for all the thoughtful input though. I prefer to invest in only the good stuff.
It is appreciated.
It's not really being tough, there are too many known good quality rifles out there for less or the same price: BCM, DD, Colt, Etc...
chamber143
04-23-12, 15:54
In addition to the known issues pointed out, the long detailed letter I sent to Windham was never answered.
1. Are they using commercial or milspec tubes?
No mention
2. Are they staking them properly (they never did in the BM days).
No mention, pic doesn't look like
3. Are they staking their BCG's? Are they using auto carriers or do they still have the auto carrier phobia?
the one in the mag I have says yes it's m16 profile bcg and properly staked. Pic doesnt really show well enough to tell if it's staked right.
4. Are they using 8620 or Carpenter 158 for BCG's.
no mention
5. Are they using "F" marked FSB's?
no they are not using f fab and says in the article that it isn't a big deal.:D
6. What about their previous crappy buffers?
No mention
7. Are they still using huge gas ports in their barrels?
no mention
Remember this is in an article in guns-weapons may 2012 issue and says its the Windham mpc. Msrp $1086...yikes
It's not really being tough, there are too many known good quality rifles out there for less or the same price: BCM, DD, Colt, Etc...
Show me where I can get a BCM, DD, Colt for $700 - $800...
A pick between the two, right now, for sure I would take a BCM, but I think it's a little too soon in the game to be calling it a "shit sandwich"
chamber143
04-24-12, 05:08
I think the point is until they prove otherwise, we will take it as their predecessor, a shit sandwich. Same owners, same plant, same machines, same workers. if you can get one for 7-800 I haven't seen them. Plus if I am going to spend 920, which I saw one local for, why not save an extra 100 and get something that is 10 x better. If some one wants a simple pinker and it was 500 dollars I'd say jump all over it. But the point is its damn close in price if not more than my mid length BCM. Case in point, 1025 before tax for a bushmaster in dicks. I think i'll pass...thanks
polymorpheous
04-24-12, 05:11
Show me where I can get a BCM, DD, Colt for $700 - $800...
A pick between the two, right now, for sure I would take a BCM, but I think it's a little too soon in the game to be calling it a "shit sandwich"
MSRP is far over $700-800.
And I built a complete BCM for under a grand.
Built my girlfriend a PSA lower and mounted a 6920 upper on it for under $750.
As far as being too early to call out a shit sandwich...
I think you are wrong.
If they can't even do a simple task of staking the receiver extension end plate, what the hell else are they cutting corners on?
They can't even answer straight forward questions.
Thanks, I think I'll pass.
Tomahawk_Ghost
04-24-12, 10:12
I have a friend who had a bunch of guns and tools he bought from coworkers having a "getting out of the marriage" sale. At the first of the year he took it down to a pawn shop and traded for a WW M4 style rifle. He said in "real dollars" he had less than $600 in it plus it made his wife happy to get air compressors and junk out of the garage.:D:D
He brought it out ranch. We shot several boxes of various mfg of ammo. No problems and it shot accurately. As mentioned above they're not to the level of Colt or BCM , yet their pricing is similar.
Unless I got a deal like my friend did there are better mfgs out there now.
Unfortunately it is an election year. People are unloading their Olympic Arms rifles out of the gun safe for near Colt prices.
In addition to the known issues pointed out, the long detailed letter I sent to Windham was never answered.
1. Are they using commercial or milspec tubes?
2. Are they staking them properly (they never did in the BM days).
3. Are they staking their BCG's? Are they using auto carriers or do they still have the auto carrier phobia?
4. Are they using 8620 or Carpenter 158 for BCG's.
5. Are they using "F" marked FSB's?
6. What about their previous crappy buffers?
7. Are they still using huge gas ports in their barrels?
This may help a little. I handled a Windham Weaponry M4-clone yesterday. Dry handling only and a field strip, but I'll be seeing it again for a detailed inspection and test fire. Serial number was WW prefixed, number ~14000. Here's what I found.
UPPER
Barrel stamped 5.56, 1/9.
Chrome lined.
Front sight base marked only with a crown.
Front sling swivel attached with a rivet.
Barrel profile had an M4 type stepdown, overall profile was about the same.
Dual heat shields, one black and one silver, both much closer together than GI. Pretty much laying on each other.
Carbine gas. Unknown port dim.
Railed upper, no addressing.
Keyhole forge mark.
Diamondhead BUIS.
Charging handle, typical BM. Felt tinny.
Auto carrier. Unmarked.
Carrier key was well staked, as in MOACKS quality staking.
Unmarked bolt.
Extractor spring insert black, w/ factory supplied o-ring.
Extended feedramps machined pre-anodizing, even alignment.
LOWER
Lower receiver keyhole forge mark, R side behind trigger guard.
GI type trigger group. Round hammer. Clean break.
Aluminum trigger guard.
GI grip, attached via allen head bolt.
Extruded receiver extension, appeared commercial dim.
Buttstock plastic light and cheap.
Extension and stock had angle-cut rear.
Carbine buffer, no birdshot. Felt about right, with normal range of motion internally.
Receiver extension nut unstaked. Tried to remove with hand tension and could not. No sign of thread locker.
Gun was sold in a BM like plastic case. Included a rudimentary manual, magazine, and promo lit for Windham Weaponry with pics and bios of the employees.
Pretty typical BM, with the exception of the well staked carrier key.
$800 For Windham.
http://www.pistolandpawn.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=307&products_id=80657
$1050 For Colt 6920
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920
I would plunk down the extra $250.
Well Gem1950, You know what? Go buy a Windham AR. Seriously. You bought a known quality Colt. Now go ahead and buy a questionable quality Windham. Then buy a lot of ammo, brass and or steel cased and try and put equal amounts through both rifles. Try to keep an accurate round count for both along with maintenance records. Nothing like real world testing to prove to yourself if you made the right decision.
If you think about it, what's the worst that could happen? That both crap out at about the same time?! You could end up with a sample of one that's equal to the Colt. Or a sample of one that isn't. Might as well be a tester and keep us up to date for the next few years. Good luck on your decision.
I want a lower, but can't find one. Oh and when I do find one I'm not paying $180.00 either.
Well Gem1950, You know what? Go buy a Windham AR. Seriously. You bought a known quality Colt. Now go ahead and buy a questionable quality Windham. Then buy a lot of ammo, brass and or steel cased and try and put equal amounts through both rifles. Try to keep an accurate round count for both along with maintenance records. Nothing like real world testing to prove to yourself if you made the right decision.
If you think about it, what's the worst that could happen? That both crap out at about the same time?! You could end up with a sample of one that's equal to the Colt. Or a sample of one that isn't. Might as well be a tester and keep us up to date for the next few years. Good luck on your decision.
How much of this thread did you actually read?
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