1000pcs of 308 brass, and I can still feel my hands!

[orkan]

Step 1 - FL Size & Decap with Forster Co-Ax using Forster FL Sizing die.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/reloading/IMG_1874.JPG

Step 2 - Tumble for 1.5hrs in Thumlers B high-speed with stainless media & Ivory Soap. Then rinse brass in cold water.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/reloading/IMG_1867.JPG

Step 3 - Run them through Bench Source automatic case annealer.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/reloading/IMG_1872.JPG

Step 4 - Run them through Giraud trimmer.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/reloading/IMG_1873.JPG

Step 5 - Admire the sight of over 1000pcs of shiny winchester brass, ready for primers, powder, and pills.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/reloading/IMG_1866.JPG

I don't really even want to think about how sore my hands would be if I wouldn't have all the equipment that I do. Nor do I want to think how long this would have taken me with traditional gear. I worked on this batch of brass for about 5-6 days, working on it a few hours each day.

Here is a picture that illustrates the Giraud in all its glory. On the left you see the case after it comes out of the tumbler and annealer. On the right, you see the case after a 3-second pass through the Giraud. A nice round case mouth which is cut to within one thousandth of the desired length, and perfectly chamfered inside and out. Trimming in quantity without a Giraud is akin to med-evil torture.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/reloading/IMG_1863.JPG

[Dirk Williams]

Impressive, Been loading along time and never seen the equipment you have.

Would you mind sharing what it is and how it works. Im still using the RCBS case trimmer manual and it sucks. I have huge box's of 308 that need to be done and the case sizing alone keeps me from doing it.

Please educate us on your system it looks like it works well.

DW

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

Man I have been thinking about one of thouse trimmers for years just dont have the money. That anneler is BADASS as well. How many firings did you have on that brass, that who had to anneal it 5 or 6?

Also did you tumble after you annealed as I dont see the heat marking on the brass pile?

Jon

Great post

[royal]

As a "low-tech-econo-do-everything-by-hand" reloader such as myself, I am incredibly envious of your setup! For every one of your high-end stations, I'm probably using a Lee Zip Trim and Cabela's Tumbler... pfftt and forget about annealing. Gotta start somewhere I guess! Thanks for sharing gives me something to aspire to.

[orkan]

Please educate us on your system it looks like it works well. I'll be doing an article on the full process I use in the future, but I'll give you a quick and dirty.

Step 1
Forster Co-Ax is the best single stage press in the world in my opinion. It has floating jaws and floating die. This gets rid of a lot of runout problems associated with presses. I use a Forster FL sizing die as they are way stronger than the Redding's I've used, and have a much more intuitive stem adjustment.

Step 2
This is a Thumlers Model B "High Speed" that you can get from numerous sources. I've bought mine at stainlesstumblingmedia.com. Using a wet process to tumble the brass gets it sparkling clean. Inside, outside, and primer pockets all end up perfectly clean. Just a couple tablespoons of ivory dish soap thrown in with about 120-150pcs of 308 and a gallon of water. I let it run for 1.5-2hrs. No harm in letting it run longer.

Step 3
Bench-Source Case Annealer. Click here for a full listing of specs. (http://www.bench-source.com/id81.html) I anneal after every firing. This keeps the neck tension uniform across the entire batch between firings, and keeps the neck/shoulder area expanding properly between firings. It also gets rid of most of the excess water left over from tumbling.

http://youtu.be/OaXzARG5Qz0

There's a video. Unlike the one in the video, I have mine hooked to a 20lb propane tank, and lines run up to two individual torches.

No I didn't tumble after annealing. The reason you don't see the heat mark is because different brass reacts differently to annealing. If you look closely, it's there. It's just not the bright blue you see on lapua. I like to error on the side of caution, so I don't want to over-cook it. The when the necks come out the other side of the torch station, you can see them glow just a bit if the lights are off. Winchester brass has a thin wall, so you can ruin them pretty quick. That's what's nice about the bench source. You can set the dwell time down to a tenth of a second.

Step 4
The Giraud trimmer. (http://www.giraudtool.com/prod02.htm) It'll trim a case in a couple seconds, and chamfer inside and outside while it's doing it.

http://youtu.be/0X1Zdwnm9Fk

There's a video. No faster way to trim brass that I'm aware of.

I shoot a lot. On the order of 10,000rnds of just 308 per year. I don't know what I'd do without the gear I have. Shoot less? (yeah right)

[taliv]

nice writeup

couple of comments:

1 forester co-ax rocks

2 careful with the stainless tumbling media. a competitor at rifles only bushnell brawl earlier this month apparently had a piece of the media stuck in the case that came out when firing... did some interesting damage to his brake on the way out. make sure you get it all out!

3 check out the giraud annealer... very nice http://www.giraudtool.com/annealer1.htm

4 trimmer rocks.

[orkan]

make sure you get it all out!

3 check out the giraud annealer... very nice http://www.giraudtool.com/annealer1.htm


Yeah, that's why I manually dunk each case upside down a few times in water. I don't need one of those pins coming out.

I checked out that annealer. Doesn't look as good as the bench source. I like that you can stack it full of cases, but I like the versatility of the bench source a bit better.

[Pappabear]

Mark just bought a case trimmer, can't remember which on but he said it was true glory.

Gotta feeling an annealer is in our future.

He uses that stainless tumbler and the brass looks better than new! Its so bad ass.

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

I have never heard of anyone annealing after every firing. Do you think it makes a big diffrence?

[orkan]

I have never heard of anyone annealing after every firing. Do you think it makes a big diffrence? This brass is already shooting 1/2 moa or less when new/unfired, so I can't see it making a "big" difference.

My main reason for doing it is to help get water out of the cases after tumbling. I figure if I'm going to anneal after several firings, then why not anneal every time and keep things consistent.

With an annealer like I have, it really isn't a big deal to do it every time. If I were doing it by hand, I wouldn't do it every time. It takes this machine about 5 seconds per case, including the time to rotate the next piece of brass into position.

[hyper45]

that is a super set up i would love to have one like it

[taliv]

I checked out that annealer. Doesn't look as good as the bench source. I like that you can stack it full of cases, but I like the versatility of the bench source a bit better.

out of curiosity what do you do with the bench source that you can't do with the giraud? how is it more versatile?

[orkan]

what do you do with the bench source that you can't do with the giraud?

I can run everything from 223 to 338LM (and a bit bigger) without having to buy different feeder wheels and transfer plates. Each feeder wheel/transfer plate kit would run you an additional $30. That makes a $435 annealer almost a $600 annealer to do all the cartridges that I do. Bench Source does them all, and cost me less than $500. Then, having to swap out that shit every time I switch cartridges would be a pain in the ass. Not to mention having to store more shit in my reloading room. With my bench source, I just adjust the torches and maybe make a tiny adjustment to the plate and go. Takes seconds.

I can run two torches, giving me less dwell time and more accurate annealing of the neck/shoulder without as much heat transfer down the body.

The torch adjustment is a lot easier, and more stable on the bench source. Clamp knobs instead of wing screw. When I clamp the torches in place, they stay put.

I like the quasi-case feeder on the giraud, but its not worth it just to get it. I could mate up any case feeder of my choosing to the bench source, but I haven't found the desire. A couple open torches in my house isn't exactly something I want to walk away from for any length of time. Being there watching it also gives me another opportunity to inspect the cases.

Can the giraud do rimmed cases, like 7.62x54R or 45-70? I haven't seen it mentioned, but I seriously doubt it. My bench source handles them just fine.

It's an innovative design, but I tip my hat to the Bench Source.

[elephantrider]

To the OP:
- Wouldn't the proper order of procedures be to anneal the cases first and then re-size them?
- Why the full length resizing? I assume these are being used in a bolt gun with all this attention to deatail? Seems like most bolt gun reloaders just use bushing neck dies w/o expander balls to reduce the amount of cold working of the brass.
- I see that you use the annealing to drive off the water from the stainless media tumbling, but don't you need to quench the brass in water as a part of the annealing process?

To other posters that have asked:
- My understanding of annealing is that properly annealed brass will only show a very light change in color. The darker annealing marks will develope over time. If it is dark immediatly after the heat treatment then it has been over-annealed and should be discarded.
- I've heard of some shooters who anneal every 1-2 firings, but they are primarily benchrest shooters.

[orkan]

- Wouldn't the proper order of procedures be to anneal the cases first and then re-size them? Doesn't really matter. By annealing then resizing, you are automatically adding some work-hardening back into the brass before you fire it. Counterproductive don't you think? In any event, I'm watching closely for any adverse affect to this.


- Why the full length resizing? I assume these are being used in a bolt gun with all this attention to deatail? Seems like most bolt gun reloaders just use bushing neck dies w/o expander balls to reduce the amount of cold working of the brass. Says who? The best benchresters I know generally use custom-honed FL sizing dies. A bushing die with no expander mandrel will most often result in non-uniform case mouths. I've had much better luck FL sizing than I have using bushing dies.



- I see that you use the annealing to drive off the water from the stainless media tumbling, but don't you need to quench the brass in water as a part of the annealing process? No. Water is required to heat-treat a part. When annealing, you aren't locking in a hardened grain structure. Rather, you are stress relieving. Quenching will actually hurt that process.

[mkmckinley]

Orkan, nice setup. I appreciate the pictures too. I have about 4500 cases that need to be prepped and I'm toying with the idea of a giraud. I'm also considering the Little Crow World's Fimnest Trimmer. Any experience with those?

[orkan]

Not that one specifically, but I used other drill-mounted units when I was younger. They all left a lot to be desired.

Not even in the same category as a giraud trimmer.

[smoe806]

Thanks for posting Your set up . I had not even heard of the Thumlers Tumbler . I recently bought one . WOW it does a great job . The
Forster Co-Ax is next on the list Thanks Again.

[glocktogo]

The Giraud trimmer is the Rolls Royce of case trimming. I probably wouldn't load 5.56 in bulk without one.

[orkan]

Glad it could help you. :)