Can we just arrest everyone who works for the TSA now?

[kwelz]

A 4 year old hugging her grandmother is now a reason to terrorize her.

http://consumerist.com/2012/04/4-year-old-gets-tsa-pat-down-following-hug-from-grandma.html

My personal favorite part.


TSA has reviewed the incident and determined that our officers followed proper current screening procedures in conducting a modified pat-down on the child.

Don't worry we investigated it ourselves and I promise we didn't do anything wrong. No really. Not a thing.


I do know that if I had been the parent I would be in jail now and all three TSA agents would be in the ER.

[feedramp]

Didn't you hear? The War on Terror is over: http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/war-terror-over_640620.html
Now it's just old people, kids, and American citizens that get extra attention and prejudicial treatment by TSA goons.
Oh wait, that's the same groups they targeted before, out of their demented desire to make prevention as ineffective as possible. :jester:

[SteyrAUG]

Much as it pains me to admit it, the terrorists won.

They succeeded in changing the way of life in America while they continue their preferred stone age existence in their countries. We victimize US citizens in the name of "safety" and they call for and get blood for any slight against a Koran. Worst of all, our government helped them win.

Might as well bring on the trendy Muslim restaurants for us to eat in.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

That is when a TSO told me they would shut down the entire airport, cancel all flights, if my daughter was not restrained. It was then they declared my daughter a "high-security-threat".

Sometimes you have to call their bluff and let them explain to the press that a 4 year old and a grandmother shut down the airport.

I have told my boss that it is just a matter of time before he has to come bail me out of a TSA gulag. I fly too often and have too much of a backbone to be compatible with these ass clowns.

99.99% of the TSA people I come into contact with are great people with crappy jobs, and the other 0.01% are complete wastes of humanity.

[feedramp]

Might as well bring on the trendy Muslim restaurants for us to eat in.

Hey now, I actually like Middle Eastern and South Asian cuisine. :secret:

[Sensei]

Sometimes you have to call their bluff and let them explain to the press that a 4 year old and a grandmother shut down the airport.

I have told my boss that it is just a matter of time before he has to come bail me out of a TSA gulag. I fly too often and have too much of a backbone to be compatible with these ass clowns.

99.99% of the TSA people I come into contact with are great people with crappy jobs, and the other 0.01% are complete wastes of humanity.

I agree. I've not had too much problem with the TSA despite flying 6-10 trips per year. While I might agree the some elements of my lifestyle have changed (i.e. I can now only take 4 oz of KY on my trips to San Fran), I can't say that my way of life has changed all that much.

[Bowser]

Coming back from SHOT Show, the body scanner found something wrong with my right knee. So they said they will need to pat down my right knee, and did. Well, I was wearing basketball shorts...lol

[spr1]

Stating the obvious, the former head of security for El Al commented that we do not have an airport security system, we have a passenger harassment system.......

[The_War_Wagon]

I got strip searched in Pittsburgh LAST time I flew... in 2005...

I don't fly anymore.

I keep hoping, the REST of you will catch on eventually...

[Abraxas]

As my father in law always says," these TSA guys have the intelligence between a rock and a ditch".

[CarlosDJackal]

Sometimes you have to call their bluff and let them explain to the press that a 4 year old and a grandmother shut down the airport.

I have told my boss that it is just a matter of time before he has to come bail me out of a TSA gulag. I fly too often and have too much of a backbone to be compatible with these ass clowns.

99.99% of the TSA people I come into contact with are great people with crappy jobs, and the other 0.01% are complete wastes of humanity.

+1, sort off. In my limited experience when I was working as Checkpoint Security only about 60-80% of TSA employees were there to do the best job they can under the most trying circumstances. They do their best to provide "Customer Service" while following the rules and regulations as imposed by the Feds.

Unfortunately, the rest of them are a waste of space who are only in it purely for the pay. They fit the mold of your typical ROAD-type Government Employee. These guys have no business dealing with the public because they not only lack the intelligence to be able to make decisions based on the circumstances, they don't have the common sense to guide those decisions even if they did decide to make any.

The even more unfortunate thing is what they do and the rules they follow are founded on actual incidents. Blame the terrorists, especially the islamic "fundamentalists" who have been known to strap explosives on children or hide them in their shoes. It's just like the criminal laws we have to follow. They were created in response to some idiot who decided to do something immoral and/or illegal which gave someone the cause to push a bill into a law.

Can you imagine what laws we would have if all those criminals and mobsters in the "Roaring 1930s" had used Fencing Sabres instead of sawed-off shotguns, Thompson machineguns, and BARs?

There is a reason why I have not flown in a very long time. JM2CW.

[GTifosi]

I can't say that my way of life has changed all that much.

By that you do admit it has changed to some degree and you've accepted it without pause.
Mabe something else new that's not too much of a life changer will slide as easily too.

Nickles and dimes make dollars.

[Doc Safari]

Much as it pains me to admit it, the terrorists won.

They succeeded in changing the way of life in America while they continue their preferred stone age existence in their countries. We victimize US citizens in the name of "safety" and they call for and get blood for any slight against a Koran. Worst of all, our government helped them win.

Might as well bring on the trendy Muslim restaurants for us to eat in.

Don't forget the contributory factor of "political correctness" that forbids profiling but subjects 80-year old grandmothers to "equal treatment."

If out government simply profiled....no need for TSA.

[obucina]

Coming back from SHOT Show, the body scanner found something wrong with my right knee. So they said they will need to pat down my right knee, and did. Well, I was wearing basketball shorts...lol


that sounds familiar.....

[Suwannee Tim]

TSA has reviewed the incident and determined that our officers followed proper current screening procedures in conducting a modified pat-down on the child.

Can we then conclude that common sense, common courtesy, common decency and a little bit of tenderness for an upset child are not in the current screening procedures?

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

Might as well bring on the trendy Muslim restaurants for us to eat in.

Hey, Arab food is the shit. :nono: From Bahrain:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/DSC02135.jpg


Anyways, disregard my derail. The general population sees TSA in the same light as firefighters and policemen, just another public safety organization. They dont realize that they are unnecessary, and that through an airport privatization of security we could see not only safer methods, but also less obtrusive and more customer friendly. We have a government institution whos only function is to violate the 4th ammendment, and yet the sheeple dont care very much until it happens to their 4 year old child.

[NWPilgrim]

Stating the obvious, the former head of security for El Al commented that we do not have an airport security system, we have a passenger harassment system.......

That is it in a nutshell.

I was shocked when after 9/11 Bush explained the TSA and its procedures were to "make Americans feel safe." Not to protect Americans, not to catch terrorists, but to harass us until we feel we must be safer. And everything that has transpired since only emphasizes that harassment is the goal, not protection.

[Bowser]

that sounds familiar.....

Did they do the same to you?

[J-Dub]

Conditioning. Thats all the TSA is there to do. Condition people to believe its ok to accept radiation poisoning, be groped, fondled, and molested.

First it was the Airports, now they're moving to the hwys.....whats next? Malls? Banks?

I will not fly, nor will i submit to be molested by anyone when i've done nothing wrong.

Theres a difference when a criminal element is thrown into the situation (investigative detention frisk, or arrest search). And LAW ENFORCEMENT conducts those, you know....people with training (extensive background investigation, sworn to an oath)

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

+
There is a reason why I have not flown in a very long time. JM2CW.

With a name like Carlos the Jackal, I can understand why... ;)


Conditioning. Thats all the TSA is there to do. Condition people to believe its ok to accept radiation poisoning, be groped, fondled, and molested.

First it was the Airports, now they're moving to the hwys.....whats next? Malls? Banks?



I fly alot and I am amazed that more people don't opt out of the scanners. Sheeple just get corraled thru. The more amazing thing is that some places only have scanners on a few lines, and people don't flock to the metal detector only lines.

There is the health issues with the scanners, but I have to say the main issue I have is having to stand in the damn machine in French Salute to prove I'm not dangerous.

I'm interested to see how the non-airport stuff will work. In Colorado you can carry almost everywhere, so what happens when they come across someone coming home from the range? Or the guy who keeps and AR in his trunk? What exactly are they looking for and what will they do?

[Moose-Knuckle]

Conditioning. Thats all the TSA is there to do. Condition people to believe its ok to accept radiation poisoning, be groped, fondled, and molested.

First it was the Airports, now they're moving to the hwys.....whats next? Malls? Banks?


Spot on. We haven't seen anything yet.

Last time I flew (which is rare) I refused the scanner and requested a pat-down. What a joke. So much for the 4th. . .

[Buckaroo]

Don't worry, these guys have the situation well in hand.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/04/tsa-screeners-drug-arrest.html

[Moose-Knuckle]

Don't worry, these guys have the situation well in hand.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/04/tsa-screeners-drug-arrest.html

I think they had a similar incident in Hawai'i that a dozen TSA "agents" were terminated over.

Edit: Oops make that 36 "agents" that got the can! And this was the last airport I have flown out of LOL.

TSA firing 36 Honolulu Airport workers, suspends 12 others
http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/TSA_firing_36_Honolulu_Airport_workers_suspends_12_others.html?id=123650439

[Jellybean]

*sigh*
It's times like these that almost make me wish I had stuck with the flying lessons a little while longer....
Almost.

[Irish]

How about pat downs of 7 year old girls with cerebral palsy (http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/04/25/family-misses-flight-after-tsa-gives-pat-down-to-girl-with-cerebral-palsy/)?

[Ned Christiansen]

My every experience, every single one, with TSA has been positive. That is maybe 20 - 25 flights, most with firearms. I have found them to be helpful and understanding on the gun thing, and unlike airline counter personnel, they know the rules and never get all "eek" about it.

I don't blame them for all the inconvenience-- they're just doing a job. For me personally, they've always done it well-- always politely and sometimes with a little personality and humor thrown in.

Maybe I've just been lucky but based on my experiences I feel like every TSA employee takes an unjustified beating for what seem to be statistically very few negative incidents.

[J-Dub]

Maybe I've just been lucky but based on my experiences I feel like every TSA employee takes an unjustified beating for what seem to be statistically very few negative incidents.

Its a violation of 4th amendment rights. They are ****ing scumbags. They harass and molest the young and elderly....oh but they're just doing their job......what they do is not only ILLEGAL its immoral.

Seriously, who in the hell could get away with taking basically pornographic pictures of every citizen that decides to exercise their right to travel? Or molest children and elderly folks? Apparently the sicko TSA pervs and the federal government.

And when the States try to exercise their 10th amend. rights to protect the citizens 4th amend rights, the Feds threaten to enforce a No fly zone/blockade on said state (Texas)

[Moose-Knuckle]

I don't blame them for all the inconvenience-- they're just doing a job.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but. . .

That is what the guards out Auschwitz said, "I was just doing my job". While I realize that the TSA "agents" are not taking people to gas chambers and ovens they do violate the 4th Amendment rights of countless citizens. Strip searching 98 year old women who wear diapers, up close and personal "pat-downs" on infants, toddlers, et al.

Lady Liberty weaps. . .

[glocktogo]

Its a violation of 4th amendment rights. They are ****ing scumbags. They harass and molest the young and elderly....oh but they're just doing their job......what they do is not only ILLEGAL its immoral.

Seriously, who in the hell could get away with taking basically pornographic pictures of every citizen that decides to exercise their right to travel? Or molest children and elderly folks? Apparently the sicko TSA pervs and the federal government.

And when the States try to exercise their 10th amend. rights to protect the citizens 4th amend rights, the Feds threaten to enforce a No fly zone/blockade on said state (Texas)


I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but. . .

That is what the guards out Auschwitz said, "I was just doing my job". While I realize that the TSA "agents" are not taking people to gas chambers and ovens they do violate the 4th Amendment rights of countless citizens. Strip searching 98 year old women who wear diapers, up close and personal "pat-downs" on infants, toddlers, et al.

Lady Liberty weaps. . .

Was it a 4th Amendment violation before 9/11 when the airlines were doing it (it began in 1973)? Or was it OK because they didn't do it very well? The Supreme Court has recognized a “special needs exception” to the Fourth Amendment’s warrant requirement. That exception applies to certain searches, often referred to as administrative searches, that are not part of normal law enforcement and for which the warrant requirement isn’t practical. Airport searches fit into this category.

Your concerns about the searches should rightly be directed at the Supreme Court, not TSA. Perhaps in the future, SCOTUS will rule on what is a reasonable administrative search at airports, restricting the types of searches TSA can do. At least we can hope so.

[davidjinks]

If you go by the letter of the law, yes, it is a violation of the 4th amendment. The constitution doesn't say this only applies to LE, it's understood that NO ONE can violate your 4th amendment rights.

Example: I cannot just decide to stop you, search your bags and pockets for no good reason on the street (As a civilian) and neither can a police officer or federal agent.

What the TSA uses is called "Implied Consent". That means YOU KNOW that if you're going to fly you will be searched and the simple act of you buying a ticket and showing up to a FEDERAL SECURITY CHECKPOINT you are acknowledging that you're okay with being searched.

I have never agreed with this.



Was it a 4th Amendment violation before 9/11 when the airlines were doing it (it began in 1973)? Or was it OK because they didn't do it very well? The Supreme Court has recognized a “special needs exception” to the Fourth Amendment’s warrant requirement. That exception applies to certain searches, often referred to as administrative searches, that are not part of normal law enforcement and for which the warrant requirement isn’t practical. Airport searches fit into this category.

Your concerns about the searches should rightly be directed at the Supreme Court, not TSA. Perhaps in the future, SCOTUS will rule on what is a reasonable administrative search at airports, restricting the types of searches TSA can do. At least we can hope so.

[CaptainDooley]

I always opt out of the body scanners because I've never felt the pat downs that I have received are overly-intrusive AND I don't trust the Federal government with an electronic copy of a highly invasive x-ray photo of me.

But 4th amendment aside, the TSA needs to be disbanded because it is largely ineffective. They have not stopped one threat (that I have seen reported) and in fact there are dozens of reports of threats being found past TSA checkpoints and of people with contraband items past TSA checkpoints.

From my own life: Last fall I flew from Dallas to Chicago Midway. I was going to attend a carbine course with a friend and had thought that I had checked all my weapons and gear. However, I forgot that my daily carry bag, which mostly holds an iPad, a first aid kit, and some various other items, also has my AR leatherman strapped to the outside of it. I made it to Chicago with no issues... WITH A KNIFE ON THE PLANE. Because this item lives there all the time, I was completely oblivious to this.

Then I attempted to come home, still not remembering it was there. Going through security they ran my bag multiple times and asked me to wait. Finally the TSA clerk comes over and asks if he can search my bag. I say yes. He goes right to the Leatherman and I instantly realize why the hassle and I'm starting to get agitated because I'm going to loose a nearly $200 item due to my own carelessness.

He pulls it out and asks me about it. I tell him I use it often at work and so it's always on my bag. He informs me that if it has a knife on it, they won't be able to let me pass with it. After a couple minutes of turning it round and round and randomly opening different tools he hands it to me, thanks me for my time and sends me on my way... because he wasn't smart enough to find a very obvious knife blade on a tool that always includes a knife blade. My tax dollars, hard at work...

[Irish]

I highly recommend the documentary Please Remove Your Shoes. It's available on Netflix and in streaming format for instant viewing. Interviewing lots of FAM's, pilots, politicians and terrorism experts on the TSA goat****.


This troubling documentary examines the Transportation Security Administration's role as protector of the American skies, raising questions about the disturbing gap between the federal agency's avowed purpose and actual airport safety since 9/11.

[CarlosDJackal]

Its a violation of 4th amendment rights...

Not a lawyer nor am I defending the TSA, but please explain why what they are doing is a violation of anyone's Fourth Amendment Rights, Thanks in advanced.

Here's the text in case we are talking about a different amendment:

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[CarlosDJackal]

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but. . .

That is what the guards out Auschwitz said, "I was just doing my job". . .

Holy crap!! I didn't know the TSA was transporting people to be gassed and incinerated!! :eek: They have got o be stopped and stopped now!!

A bit over dramatic, don't you think? I never knew there were so many Drama Queens on here. LOL.

[Moose-Knuckle]

Holy crap!! I didn't know the TSA was transporting people to be gassed and incinerated!! :eek: They have got o be stopped and stopped now!!

A bit over dramatic, don't you think? I never knew there were so many Drama Queens on here. LOL.

Speaking of "drama queens". . .:rolleyes:

I guess you failed to read the next sentence in my post:



While I realize that the TSA "agents" are not taking people to gas chambers and ovens they do violate the 4th Amendment rights of countless citizens.

[glocktogo]

Not a lawyer nor am I defending the TSA, but please explain why what they are doing is a violation of anyone's Fourth Amendment Rights, Thanks in advanced.

Here's the text in case we are talking about a different amendment:

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

It's the second half that TSA doesn't comply with, hence the implied consent part. If the SCOTUS were to rule implied consent invalid, it would overturn numerous local, state and federal laws, and all those private employer consent to search rules. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say SCOTUS isn't going to poke that bear. :(

[TAZ]

Not a lawyer nor am I defending the TSA, but please explain why what they are doing is a violation of anyone's Fourth Amendment Rights, Thanks in advanced.

Here's the text in case we are talking about a different amendment:

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Well, they are searching people and their effects without warrants or articulated probable cause. When you go through the x-ray scanner they search your person and the same goes for your bags. All of that is done without a warrant or probable cause. They do it simply cause you are there and intend to travel. Essentially, you are considered guilty until you go through the process and prove you're not a threat. One more thing that I believe goes counter to what is intended in the Constitution. The only reason they can do it is because of implied consent aka the you don't have to be here none sense. It's going to be interesting when the TSA officially spread to the other modes of transport. There will come a time when you won't have an option but to go through their asinine procedures simply to get to work. What are people's excuses for their behavior going to be then. For the record I have always felt this way not just post 9/11. However, since 9/11 I have relegated air travel to the absolute bottom of the list.

In fairness to TSA, the few times I have traveled they have been OK. They do their jobs and we move along. I am relatively sure that not one among them knows their head from a hole in the ground when it comes to the safety of travelers, but they do their thing and follow their procedures. I have yet to witness anyone go out of their way to be assholes to anyone.

Criminal behavior among their ranks, failures to identify threats, and general cluelessness when it comes to creating an unsafe area for travelers in the form of huge crowds in confined spaces reaffirm my initial assessment that they are there to make your average American traveler FEEL safe and nothing more. Personally I'd rather BE safer, which is why I stay the hell away from them as long as I can.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I think the 4th issues really start when TSA takes the "T" to the extreme and starts checkpoints where there were never checkpoints. Mass transit, maybe; open road searches, not even close.

[Moose-Knuckle]

I think the 4th issues really start when TSA takes the "T" to the extreme and starts checkpoints where there were never checkpoints. Mass transit, maybe; open road searches, not even close.

TSA's Visible Intermodal Prevention and Response (VIPR) teams . . .

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/apr/18/tsa-mission-creep-us-police-state





"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

[Moose-Knuckle]

The TSA agent said, again, in full voice, "There's an anomaly in the crotch area.", of the 4'-11" 79 year old. . .

http://news.yahoo.com/tsa-found-anomaly-jeffrey-goldbergs-mother-laws-crotch-162757933.html


:blink:

[Sensei]

It's the second half that TSA doesn't comply with, hence the implied consent part. If the SCOTUS were to rule implied consent invalid, it would overturn numerous local, state and federal laws, and all those private employer consent to search rules. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say SCOTUS isn't going to poke that bear. :(

No, they are not going to poke it with a 10' pole. The reason why is that all airport travel would be immediately suspended as soon as such a ruling came down the pipe - just like what happened in the days after 9/11. The feds would pull all air traffic controllers and any other services that facilitate airline travel while such a ruling existed. Not to mention the fact that no foreign country would allow US planes to enter their airspace under such conditions.


While many Americans may not like the TSA's performance, you will be hard pressed to find more than a small fraction of the population wanting to do away with all airport screenings. There will never be a day in our lifetime when you can board a commercial plane without submitting to some form of search.

[glocktogo]

No, they are not going to poke it with a 10' pole. The reason why is that all airport travel would be immediately suspended as soon as such a ruling came down the pipe - just like what happened in the days after 9/11. The feds would pull all air traffic controllers and any other services that facilitate airline travel while such a ruling existed. Not to mention the fact that no foreign country would allow US planes to enter their airspace under such conditions.


While many Americans may not like the TSA's performance, you will be hard pressed to find more than a small fraction of the population wanting to do away with all airport screenings. There will never be a day in our lifetime when you can board a commercial plane without submitting to some form of search.

Agreed. I think the main issue is the .gov doing it instead of the airlines, who did it pre-TSA. The invasiveness of the search itself will continue to be regulated by the .gov as before, whether it's the TSA or the FAA. Most of the TSA detractors either fail to provide a better alternative, or tout the Israeli model, which is an oversimplification because it covers one airport and one airline.

I'd like to see a better alternative, I just haven't yet. :(

[Sensei]

Conditioning. Thats all the TSA is there to do. Condition people to believe its ok to accept radiation poisoning, be groped, fondled, and molested.

First it was the Airports, now they're moving to the hwys.....whats next? Malls? Banks?

I will not fly, nor will i submit to be molested by anyone when i've done nothing wrong.

Theres a difference when a criminal element is thrown into the situation (investigative detention frisk, or arrest search). And LAW ENFORCEMENT conducts those, you know....people with training (extensive background investigation, sworn to an oath)

I flew this weekend and had no problems on either flight. A TSA agent even brought me my watch today when I started to walk off without picking it up. He was polite and thanked me for flying. I also had a checked weapon that made it through without a problem or cause for delay. I'm not saying that a private security firm would not be better, but I should at least acknowledge the good with the bad.

BTW, here is a chart of the background radiation from the body scanners vs various medical and environmental sources.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126833083

[J-Dub]

Not a lawyer nor am I defending the TSA, but please explain why what they are doing is a violation of anyone's Fourth Amendment Rights, Thanks in advanced.

Here's the text in case we are talking about a different amendment:

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Its an UNREASONABLE SEARCH. I believe its is unreasonable for some rent-a-cop to stick their hands down my pants or take nude photographs of me. I have a reasonable expectation of privacy concerning people taking nude photos and fondling my balls.

But hey, if you're ok with pedaphilia, groping, unlawful searches, ect keep supporting it. They cant even catch anyone anyway lol. How many "terrorists" have the TSA caught??????? ZERO

Fact is if i did the same thing to someone boarding a bus i'd be arrested. Hell, even law enforcement cant get away with this shit. They have to have probable cause/arrest someone to do an actual search of their person (not just a terry frisk).

But let me guess 9/11 makes it ok. They can start anal probing everyone with a one way ticket because 9/11 right?

[davidjinks]

Spot on…I just wanted to highlight the very last, most important part of your post in red.

It is meant to make people feel safe and secure, to re-enforce the commitment of the government to protect it's citizens…………

The heated debates I was involved in in regards to the violations of peoples rights were phenomenal. Again, it all falls back to "Implied Consent." There's no way around it. Here's how it works…

You buy a plane ticket
You show up to a FEDERAL SECURITY CHECKPOINT
That's it...

My recommendation to you all…DON'T BUY A PLANE TICKET AND FLY.

I'm not saying that to be a dick, but it's the solid truth. Not every airport is the same. Some are good and some aren't. Some employees are good and some aren't.

As for the x-ray machines…Ask DHS why they refuse to issue dosimeter badges to the x-ray operators or even to the TSO force as a whole…


Its an UNREASONABLE SEARCH. I believe its is unreasonable for some rent-a-cop to stick their hands down my pants or take nude photographs of me. I have a reasonable expectation of privacy concerning people taking nude photos and fondling my balls.

But hey, if you're ok with pedaphilia, groping, unlawful searches, ect keep supporting it. They cant even catch anyone anyway lol. How many "terrorists" have the TSA caught??????? ZERO

Fact is if i did the same thing to someone boarding a bus i'd be arrested. Hell, even law enforcement cant get away with this shit. They have to have probable cause/arrest someone to do an actual search of their person (not just a terry frisk).

But let me guess 9/11 makes it ok. They can start anal probing everyone with a one way ticket because 9/11 right?

[glocktogo]

Its an UNREASONABLE SEARCH. I believe its is unreasonable for some rent-a-cop to stick their hands down my pants or take nude photographs of me. I have a reasonable expectation of privacy concerning people taking nude photos and fondling my balls.

But hey, if you're ok with pedaphilia, groping, unlawful searches, ect keep supporting it. They cant even catch anyone anyway lol. How many "terrorists" have the TSA caught??????? ZERO

Fact is if i did the same thing to someone boarding a bus i'd be arrested. Hell, even law enforcement cant get away with this shit. They have to have probable cause/arrest someone to do an actual search of their person (not just a terry frisk).

But let me guess 9/11 makes it ok. They can start anal probing everyone with a one way ticket because 9/11 right?

Inflammatory and inaccurate rhetoric aside, I guess you missed the part where SCOTUS ruled that an administrative search prior to entering the sterile area of an airport does not violate the 4th Amendment, before TSA and 9/11 ever happened. It seems to me that you're:

(a) angry about the .gov doing the search instead of the airline
(b) angry about the extent of the search
(c) angry that terrorists have targeted the aviation sector
(d) just venting with no particular point

In any case, I'd say you're not a good candidate for scheduled passenger air travel. I'd recommend that you avoid it at all costs.

[MistWolf]

Found this cartoon on a site I just discovered, http://www.chickenwingscomics.com If you have any experience in aviation, you get a kick out of the cartoon strips.

It's a good comment on Airport Insecurity. I'd rather take my chances with the terrorists
http://www.chickenwingscomics.com/comics/2010-11-30-cw0557.jpg

[davidjinks]

An administrative search is different then what they are doing currently.

Prior to 9/11 you had the option to opt out of the checks and leave. Try that today after you put your property down on the table…

It has gone from an administrative search to an illegal search and seizure of property.

Name me any Law Enforcement (Local, State, Federal) entity that is able to walk up to you, demand to see your papers, inspect all personal property and seize said property they think is dangerous without any proof to back it up. It's pure speculation they are using rather than facts. Some people like to look right past that part...


Inflammatory and inaccurate rhetoric aside, I guess you missed the part where SCOTUS ruled that an administrative search prior to entering the sterile area of an airport does not violate the 4th Amendment, before TSA and 9/11 ever happened. It seems to me that you're:

(a) angry about the .gov doing the search instead of the airline
(b) angry about the extent of the search
(c) angry that terrorists have targeted the aviation sector
(d) just venting with no particular point

In any case, I'd say you're not a good candidate for scheduled passenger air travel. I'd recommend that you avoid it at all costs.

[glocktogo]

An administrative search is different then what they are doing currently.

Prior to 9/11 you had the option to opt out of the checks and leave. Try that today after you put your property down on the table…

It has gone from an administrative search to an illegal search and seizure of property.

Name me any Law Enforcement (Local, State, Federal) entity that is able to walk up to you, demand to see your papers, inspect all personal property and seize said property they think is dangerous without any proof to back it up. It's pure speculation they are using rather than facts. Some people like to look right past that part...

More misinformation. You did and still do have the option to opt out of the checks. You could not then and cannot now opt out once the the checks have begun. That's so people cannot probe the system for weaknesses and simply walk away when what they're trying doesn't work.

It's still an administrative search in the eyes of the law and your protestations otherwise mean nothing.

It's not an illegal seizure of property either. If it's a legal item, you have multiple options to keep it such as mail it to yourself, take it back to the car, give it to someone seeing you off, checking it in checked baggage, etc. If it's illegal, TSA doesn't seize it, the local LE agency does, same as any other administrative search discovery.

Also, you walk up to them, not vice versa. Want a federal LE agency that does the same thing? U.S. Marshals Service. Ever go into a federal courthouse? Yep, security screening. Here's the kicker, you may not have an option to leave from there if your attendance is compelled. Yet the stakes are higher at the airport. Nothing you might carry into a federal courthouse will crash the building. Not so with an airplane.

As for papers, you cannot get on a commercial flight without a boarding pass, which is all you need. You don't even need ID, but you'll have to undergo a more thorough search if you don't have it.

TSA does some stupid shit, no doubt about it. But spreading misinformation does more damage to the discourse and doesn't help get things changed. :(

[CarlosDJackal]

An administrative search is different then what they are doing currently.

Prior to 9/11 you had the option to opt out of the checks and leave. Try that today after you put your property down on the table...

I've done it. Until you or your property crosses the threshold that is the metal detector, you can back out of the search. Back in 2002 when I was working the Checkpoint Security, a lot of people were given the option to take their property and check it in with their airline, hand it to a family member who is not flying with them, or lock in in their vehicles that were in long term parking.

[Artos]

Could someone with on-hand knowledge explain the process Israel uses for flying in & out of their country & compare it to TSA??

It seems everything we do is reactionary...wait for something to happen and then implement a goofball plan by the seat of their pants.

[Sensei]

Could someone with on-hand knowledge explain the process Israel uses for flying in & out of their country & compare it to TSA??

It seems everything we do is reactionary...wait for something to happen and then implement a goofball plan by the seat of their pants.

I have no personal experience, but here are a few articles that Google found:

http://boardingarea.com/blogs/flyingwithfish/2010/11/26/the-tsa-israeli-style-security-the-4th-amendment/

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2011/01/whats_so_great_about_israeli_security.html

If true, these articles suggest that the Israeli methods go far beyond the confines of our Constitution...

[Kfgk14]

I'm interested to see how the non-airport stuff will work. In Colorado you can carry almost everywhere, so what happens when they come across someone coming home from the range? Or the guy who keeps and AR in his trunk? What exactly are they looking for and what will they do?

Oh, I dare them to try it in my town. I'll load the whole safe up and have my buddies tail me with a camera until they decide to search my car. Can you imagine the look on that TSA high-school dropout's face when he opens the trunk to two AR's with mounted suppressors and me in the driver's seat in full battle rattle?
:lol:

I kid, I kid. But in all seriousness, my evil black truck gun of death might freak them out a bit...:D

[Moose-Knuckle]

I kid, I kid. But in all seriousness, my evil black truck gun of death might freak them out a bit...:D

Especially if it has "that shoulder thing that goes up". ;)

[J-Dub]

In any case, I'd say you're not a good candidate for scheduled passenger air travel. I'd recommend that you avoid it at all costs.

Well sorry, i'll never be ok with sexual assault, or violatiing constitutional rights. Apparently YOU are ok with molestation, sexual assault, groping, ect the list goes on.....thats fine.

Nor will i be ok with the federal govt. hiding behind "the terrorists are going to get you" bullshit. Because thats what it is, bullshit.

Again, HOW MANY TERRORISTS HAVE THE TSA CAUGHT????????

[Artos]

If true, these articles suggest that the Israeli methods go far beyond the confines of our Constitution...

Mostly due to the profile aspect?? Not wanting to compare their little corner of dirt in the same eyes as ours...you just never hear of similar complaints.

I didn't like air travel before 9/11 but it really sticks in my craw now...not sure how my rocket man boss deals with it as a way of life.

[Sensei]

Mostly due to the profile aspect?? Not wanting to compare their little corner of dirt in the same eyes as ours...you just never hear of similar complaints.

I didn't like air travel before 9/11 but it really sticks in my craw now...not sure how my rocket man boss deals with it as a way of life.

According to the articles, passengers traveling through Israeli security can be detained for questioning and invasive searches. It appears that travelers cannot simply leave once the questioning begins which is very different than in the US.

[glocktogo]

Well sorry, i'll never be ok with sexual assault, or violatiing constitutional rights. Apparently YOU are ok with molestation, sexual assault, groping, ect the list goes on.....thats fine.

Nor will i be ok with the federal govt. hiding behind "the terrorists are going to get you" bullshit. Because thats what it is, bullshit.

Again, HOW MANY TERRORISTS HAVE THE TSA CAUGHT????????

Apparently your definitions of sexual assault and molestation differ from mine (and that of the law and SCOTUS decision). As I stated, it seems you were/are ok with private companies performing the searches, but not the government? If you believe the searches violate the 4th Amendment, why should it matter who's doing the violating? Did you protest the searches prior to 9/11 and the TSA? As for your question, how would I know? How would you know? Besides, shouldn't the question be "how many terrorist acts has the TSA prevented?" Wouldn't that be a more relevant question to the discussion? We already know how many terrorist acts the previous screening system didn't prevent after all. :(

[J-Dub]

Apparently your definitions of sexual assault and molestation differ from mine (and that of the law and SCOTUS decision). As I stated, it seems you were/are ok with private companies performing the searches, but not the government? If you believe the searches violate the 4th Amendment, why should it matter who's doing the violating? Did you protest the searches prior to 9/11 and the TSA? As for your question, how would I know? How would you know? Besides, shouldn't the question be "how many terrorist acts has the TSA prevented?" Wouldn't that be a more relevant question to the discussion? We already know how many terrorist acts the previous screening system didn't prevent after all. :(

All i have to do is read the statues for sexual assault. The TSA commits sexual assault everytime they "pat" someone down. They grab peoples genitalia, thats sexual assault. (you my find it pleasurable, most do not)

Btw just in case you didnt know, no where in the Constitution does it state that the scotus has the power for judicial review. They dont have that power. It was created out of thin air.....but thats a whole other topic.


What the TSA does on a daily basis is not only disgusting and immoral, its against the law.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGGfRBcfr1g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuG30df_EE8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut8jnj4ESv8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13KLp4aoOq0&feature=related

You really think that is ok? You're ok with patting down 6yr olds? Taking diapers off of todlers and grannies?

You're ok with TSA hwy checkpoints? Maybe next they can start wearing swastikas...or use drones...that would work better!!! People that go along with this are either very mentally ill, or just plain stupid.

[glocktogo]

All i have to do is read the statues for sexual assault. The TSA commits sexual assault everytime they "pat" someone down. They grab peoples genitalia, thats sexual assault. (you my find it pleasurable, most do not)

Btw just in case you didnt know, no where in the Constitution does it state that the scotus has the power for judicial review. They dont have that power. It was created out of thin air.....but thats a whole other topic.


What the TSA does on a daily basis is not only disgusting and immoral, its against the law.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGGfRBcfr1g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuG30df_EE8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut8jnj4ESv8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13KLp4aoOq0&feature=related

You really think that is ok? You're ok with patting down 6yr olds? Taking diapers off of todlers and grannies?

You're ok with TSA hwy checkpoints? Maybe next they can start wearing swastikas...or use drones...that would work better!!! People that go along with this are either very mentally ill, or just plain stupid.

I've freely admitted they do some stupid shit, but your use of hyperbole and extreme examples, doesn't bolster your credibility. I fly all the time and I've yet to have a screener "grab" my genitalia. Recent airports include TUL, DFW, ORD, MIA, BDL, LAS and MEM. When was the last time you flew? At which airport did they grab yours? Outside some Texas legislators stumping for reelection, no one has recommended prosecution for sexual assault. By your definition, every annual medical exam by MD's (also voluntary) is sexual assault, with no intervening cloth barriers I might add. Care to show how many of those result in sexual assault prosecutions?

As for TSA highway checkpoints:


Tuesday, October 25, 2011
Myth Buster: TSA Not Setting Up Checkpoints On Tennessee Highways

Depending on what inaccurate blog post you may have read, you would think that TSA has checkpoints set up all across Tennessee’s highways. That’s just simply not the case. In fact, it’s really startling to see how off base some of the claims have been.

As part of an ongoing terrorism prevention and response program, the Tennessee Department of Safety and Homeland Security hosted a statewide exercise on October 18-20, 2011. TSA participated through its Visible Intermodal Prevention and Response program. The exercise focused on improving the communications and operating relationships of state, local, and federal agencies when responding to any type of homeland security situation.

TSA VIPR personnel participated at multiple locations in the Tennessee exercise, supporting state and local personnel as they inspected vehicles to identify potential security threats.

In addition, Transportation Security Officers were in attendance to provide information including a leaflet to truck drivers at weigh stations about TSA’s First Observer program that encourages drivers to report potentially suspicious activity or items they see on the road.

TSA officers did not physically screen drivers during this exercise as erroneously reported. The actual vehicle inspections were conducted by the Tennessee State Highway Patrol just the same as they are done every day.

BTW, nice job Godwining the thread AND name calling in one paragraph! Your posts on the subject read like a thesis on intellectually dishonest debate tactics. Coupled with your lack of spell check, correct punctuation and syntax, you've effectively destroyed your own credibility on the subject.

I hope you'll write your congressman and senators with your views, since they're the ones responsible for and capable of changing TSA policy and procedure. Just do us a favor and leave the emotional histrionics out. :)

[Moose-Knuckle]

You're ok with TSA hwy checkpoints? Maybe next they can start wearing swastikas...or use drones...that would work better!!! People that go along with this are either very mentally ill, or just plain stupid.

Their way ahead of you. . .




Article on TSA VIPR teams:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/apr/18/tsa-mission-creep-us-police-state

63 confirmed UAV launch sites in CONUS:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2134376/Is-drone-neighbourhood-Rise-killer-spy-planes-exposed-FAA-forced-reveal-63-launch-sites-U-S.html


I know I feel safer. . . :rolleyes:

[J-Dub]

Their way ahead of you. . .




Article on TSA VIPR teams:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/apr/18/tsa-mission-creep-us-police-state

63 confirmed UAV launch sites in CONUS:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2134376/Is-drone-neighbourhood-Rise-killer-spy-planes-exposed-FAA-forced-reveal-63-launch-sites-U-S.html


I know I feel safer. . . :rolleyes:

Oh i know....

[Sensei]

J-Dub,

This one is for you:

http://www.chooseliberty.org/tsa_sign.aspx?pid=0501n