View Full Version : Thoughts on VTAC M&P
Just picked this up today, didn't know how I would like the sights.
Going through my house it is very dark in some areas (parts that are not used) to extremely bright (in the main living room where an entire wall is just windows).
The sights work very well going from low to high light situations, how they will perform accuracy wise will have to wait until Saturday. No matter where I took the firearm I had a pretty clear sight picture.
The trigger is just like my standard M&P, pretty gritty. I plan on sending this off to APEX in a few weeks to see what their triggers are really like.
Do I think its worth the extra $$ over the stock? That is all going to depend on the durability of the finish, and how well these sights actually work when firing the weapon.
Gonna frog lube this thing up and see if it is any more accurate than my other M&P
http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz342/jmoney05txst/photo-3.jpg
Beautiful! I have full size M&P45, which I only drop in APEX hard sear. Since I am not too picky for a defense trigger, maybe polish it or just after 2000+ dry fire, it's GTG! Just my 0.02.
BTW: only complain of my M&P, is the slippery grip. Under stress, maybe I will jerk the trigger more or less, but I want have a firm grip.
I don't want to tinker with my stock yet just because I use it for my daily carry. I don't mind the trigger that much, but I think all that travel under stress might cause a serious decline in accuracy, which is why I want to explore the apex installations. I don't mind sending off the VTAC to be my test since at the moment it is untested and I have no intention of using it as a carry gun at the moment because it might be classified as a "cool" "tactical" weapon by some crazy prosecutor if I were to use it in self-defense.
I picked up a used set of VTAC sights off the forum for my M&P. I love them! Of course, the front sight lost the fiber optic on my first trip to the range. It is no problem to replace it and the replacement has stayed in place for a couple of hundred rounds. If you ever need new rods, Speed Shooter Specialties sells it by the inch.
I picked up a used set of VTAC sights off the forum for my M&P. I love them! Of course, the front sight lost the fiber optic on my first trip to the range. It is no problem to replace it and the replacement has stayed in place for a couple of hundred rounds. If you ever need new rods, Speed Shooter Specialties sells it by the inch.
thanks for the tip, I will be pretty disappointed if the sight comes off on the first range trip.
thanks for the tip, I will be pretty disappointed if the sight comes off on the first range trip.
It is a very common problem with the VTAC sights. I was at an indoor range when it disappeared. I never noticed it was gone until I was almost done for the day. There wasn't enough overhead light to make it glow. The front sight worked fine without it in that light.
Nice, I picked up a 40 when they first came out. Have about 600 rounds through it with no issues and hopefully I wont have any.
Shoots like a champ
Love the sights on the VTAC for sure
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f83/iasc300/004-1.jpg
chitownpig
04-25-12, 23:02
One of my buddies has that pistol so I had a chance to try those sights out and I loved em mostly due to the tapered front sight. Its a shame that there seems to be a tenancy for the fiber optic to fall out as I'd love em for duty. And the finish looks great in my opinion.
If you hand twist a drill bit at each end of the FO channel, then hit the shiny bit with some cold blue, the FO will last much longer when you melt them in with flared tips. The FO dot is a little easier to see as well.
RepeatDefender
04-26-12, 10:39
Still hoping to catch a VTAC M&P in 9 or 40 for sale/trade some day. Thanks for sharing!
I love the look of the Vtac M&P. What a beautiful weapon. I have been considering a purchase, however, I'm wondering if it have the same issues as recently manufactured M&P's, specifically the 9mm? It's a nice gun for sure and the sights are also a beauty but for $675-$700, I could buy an HK that doesn't have all these issues cropping up.
I love the look of the Vtac M&P. What a beautiful weapon. I have been considering a purchase, however, I'm wondering if it have the same issues as recently manufactured M&P's, specifically the 9mm? It's a nice gun for sure and the sights are also a beauty but for $675-$700, I could buy an HK that doesn't have all these issues cropping up.
What issues? We have two recent manufacture M&P's in the house and one additional slide and there haven't been any "issues" with any of them.
If you feel comfortable saying, what'd you all pay for your VTAC M&Ps? There's a used one at the LGS, but they want $650 for it (9mm).
What issues? We have two recent manufacture M&P's in the house and one additional slide and there haven't been any "issues" with any of them.
:confused: I'm not an M&P hater. I'm just going by what I've read here and other places. Apparently the 9mm version in particular is supposed to have poor accuracy and are the worst of the bunch.. Because of all the complaints about them on here, I opted for a Glock 19 instead and am praying that it won't be problematic when I receive it.
If you feel comfortable saying, what'd you all pay for your VTAC M&Ps? There's a used one at the LGS, but they want $650 for it (9mm).
I payed $650 for the first one into my LGS when they first came out for the 40.
I was just there this last week and they want $675 for a 9 now,
:confused: I'm not an M&P hater. I'm just going by what I've read here and other places. Apparently the 9mm version in particular is supposed to have poor accuracy and are the worst of the bunch.. Because of all the complaints about them on here, I opted for a Glock 19 instead and am praying that it won't be problematic when I receive it.
The M&P is no less accurate than any other service pistol out there. Emphasis on the term service pistol. Anyone expecting match pistol accuracy from a service pistol is either smoking crack or has unreasonable expectations. If you are going to talk about nebulous "problems" then state what they are, or believed to be; non of us are mind readers and it makes the discussion easier for others to read and follow.
From the M&P thread
http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2012/04/glock-vs-m-why-i-shoot-m.html?showComment=1334934458641#c3121809869336279096&m=1
"The main downfall of the M&P 9mm is the wildly varying accuracy thanks to some QC issues and design flaws. *The M&P 9 barrel uses a tragically slow 1:18.75" twist, which does a poor job stabilizing heavier bullets. *To add insult to injury, the M&P also unlocks extremely quickly. *This early unlocking tends to negate any conventional wisdom on what bullet weights should shoot well with the M&P, and you'll want to do a bit of experimenting."
The M&P is no less accurate than any other service pistol out there. Emphasis on the term service pistol. Anyone expecting match pistol accuracy from a service pistol is either smoking crack or has unreasonable expectations. If you are going to talk about nebulous "problems" then state what they are, or believed to be; non of us are mind readers and it makes the discussion easier for others to read and follow.
There are countless posts on this forum regarding accuracy problems/issues with M&P 9s at distances of 25+ yards due to early barrel/slide unlocking. Do a quick search and you'll see exactly what the other poster was talking about. From what I've read, the problem isn't necessarily "across the board."
The M&P is no less accurate than any other service pistol out there. Emphasis on the term service pistol. Anyone expecting match pistol accuracy from a service pistol is either smoking crack or has unreasonable expectations. If you are going to talk about nebulous "problems" then state what they are, or believed to be; non of us are mind readers and it makes the discussion easier for others to read and follow.
I think he was just referencing the accuracy problems newer M&P9's are having, not saying the platform itself is inherently not accurate.
I love the look of the Vtac M&P. What a beautiful weapon. I have been considering a purchase, however, I'm wondering if it have the same issues as recently manufactured M&P's, specifically the 9mm? It's a nice gun for sure and the sights are also a beauty but for $675-$700, I could buy an HK that doesn't have all these issues cropping up.
i paid 650 + shipping for mine
The M&P is no less accurate than any other service pistol out there. Emphasis on the term service pistol. Anyone expecting match pistol accuracy from a service pistol is either smoking crack or has unreasonable expectations. If you are going to talk about nebulous "problems" then state what they are, or believed to be; non of us are mind readers and it makes the discussion easier for others to read and follow.
my other M&P shoots just fine at 25 yds, I shoot it better than my g19 especially.
Range report.
I managed to get out to the range today with a 100rds of Remington UMC
Here is the Range
http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz342/jmoney05txst/photo-6.jpg
The good
Even being pretty overcast I cannot express how much I like these sights. They were extremely bright, I shot high with them at first but then started making my shots.
The Bad
At least the first 50 rounds ejected straight back into my forehead then bounced straight down onto my arm leaving a very interesting pattern.
http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz342/jmoney05txst/photo-7.jpg
Overall, I like the sights if they stay on there for a few thousand rounds I will be impressed. Once I'm done with finals I plan on working up a load for this gun and really cranking out some rounds.
When was your vtac manufactured?
the little envelope in the box says 3/19/12
I run full power or +P ammo in mine and found that the hi-viz tube came out in just a few thousand rounds. If yours comes out shoot me a PM and I will send you a couple of inches of replacement fiber-optic tube, it is easy enough to replace by yourself. Some of our SRT guys run hi-viz sights on their issue pistols (.40 S&W SIGs) and they have the same problem.
are you shooting 9 or 40cal? it doesn't shock me that the 40 is bucking those things out
I am try running 124gr montana gold jhps 4.1tg at 1.115 oal and see how that functions
My VTAC is a 9mm, I bought it to use as my training handgun. I recently picked up a .40 S&W slide for it too.
are you shooting 9 or 40cal? it doesn't shock me that the 40 is bucking those things out
I am try running 124gr montana gold jhps 4.1tg at 1.115 oal and see how that functions
As I stated above, my 9 lost it's front tube somewhere within the first 100 rounds. I am running the same bullet, but in the +p range.
DJK, the offer extends to you too.
interesting well at 100 rds, the sight is there. I usually load in 2-3k batches and shoot 500-to 1k per weekend, so it will get through a durability test. Still might send it off to apex first
DJK, the offer extends to you too.
Thanks kmrtnsn!! I'm good. I bought a couple of inches from SSS.
At least the first 50 rounds ejected straight back into my forehead then bounced straight down onto my arm leaving a very interesting pattern.
http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz342/jmoney05txst/photo-7.jpg
From another site, some things I would check if your having problems. Doesnt hurt to check.
*Sometimes the ejector can hit too low on the back of the casing causing it to flip up instead of out. Essentially chunking the case back at your face.
To the op, have you inspected the back of the casing? Looking for the mark made by the ejector?*
*It could be the ammo as well. Like stated above, trying some diff ammo could be the remedy.
Although I've never heard of the m&p being ammo picky.*
*I had the same problem. Predictably, it was much worse with cheaper and weaker ammo. +P and SD rounds did not present a problem. My fix was to go with a one pound lighter recoil spring. I haven't been hit in the face with the new spring but I'm now taking some cases to the arm. I am thinking of trying a 14# spring next.
If you come up with a solution please let me know. The gun shoots very nicely otherwise. I also never had any FTE even when they were flying back in my face.*
It stopped towards the end of my 100 rd rapid fire test. I am in the middle of law school finals right now so it is probably going to be a few weeks till I get a chance to really put this thing through the paces. I am going to work up a load using 124gr jhps and TG probably around 4.1 at 1.115 oal and see what happens with those.
I agree, M&Ps shoot well I shot this one much better than my stock once I figured out the POI for these sights.
I will update once I get a chance to put some serious rounds through this thing, It might be awhile though if I send it out to get trigger work. I just want to see what the apex 4.5 level 4 installation does. If it takes out a lot of that pre-travel and cleans up the finish, I probably won't turn back to glock for my CC weapon.
I have about 1500 rounds through mine with zero hiccups(9mm)... Got rid of the sights at 800 rounds since I just couldn't get used to them being so "busy". Mine does have some accuracy issues at +25... I can cut the group sizing in half with my m&p .40(which is stock).
My vtac has apex FSS kit and now running warren tactical sights (tritium front and black rear)
Two things it REALLY needs is apex ram(for vtac when it finally becomes available) and the apex barrel when it comes out as well.
It's kinda sad that I have 800+ in a polymer gun but I REALLY enjoy it! I would like to shoot something with an RMR before taking that plunge as well.
My VTAC .40 had the same problem with the fiber optic falling out of the front sight at about the 150-200 round mark. So I sent it back to S&W to have them repair it and I've put another 200 rounds through it since the repairs. The first hundred were all rapid fire to see how well the repairs were done. The second hundred were more for accuracy and I was reminded how much I like shooting the pistol. Another thing was how easy it is to acquire a good sight picture once you get used the sights. So far I haven't had anymore issues the front fiber optic but I'll keep an eye on it.
what kind of loctite do you think would be best to keep that front sight in? I haven't lost mine yet but I am about to start putting a lot of rounds down range.
Also, I am trying to decide on whether sending my m&p off for a level 4 trigger kit from apex, or if that would be unsafe for EDC. If so, I can always just get their kit and have a local gunsmith install it.
I just sent mine back to Smith because the finish was rusting so bad. For me, this is UNSAT. I've got two other M&P fullsizes, neither of which I've had problems with. I wont stop buying Smith or talk crap, as long as they get it squared away.
froglubed the exterior of mine pretty well, hopefully wont see any rust. I plan on re-doing the application every 6 months or so.
going to go ahead and order the FSS kit and have a local gunsmith install it for me. Hoping to get it out to 4.5 pound trigger pull and determine whether or not I can feel comfortable with that for concealed/edc
ChuckTShoes
08-16-12, 17:47
4.5# will be easy to achieve with the FSS. My EDC is a 9c (no TS) that has the DCAEK installed with a 4.0# trigger pull.
Once my .45 mid with TS arrives it will receive the FSS. I am looking to get a sub 3.5# pull on it.
Luckystiff
08-16-12, 21:21
I took my VTAC to APEX, dropped it off and had them do some work on it. While at the shop the front sight fell off the slide. S&W changed the spec slightly on the front dove tail and did not tell the guys at VTAC. :blink: APEX fixed it for free when they sighted the gun in for me. I love my VTAC!
when i take mine in for the trigger install i plan on asking the local gunsmith what he thinks about applying a thin coat of some sort of adhesive around the front fiber optic tube to keep it in place
theblackknight
08-17-12, 08:02
My buddy has one in 9, and had the same ejection problem, hitting him in the head(top).
After getting fiber sights on my production gun, I'm more open to having fibers on a carry gun. Id need to look at these up close tho.
Is the shooter side of the fiber tunnel countersunk any to allow for a slight flare?
sent from my gun using my sights
Psalms144.1
08-17-12, 09:27
froglubed the exterior of mine pretty well, hopefully wont see any rust. I plan on re-doing the application every 6 months or so.
A bit off-topic, but, while I LOVE FL as a lube, I've been significantly disappointed with it's corrosion resistance. In fact, during an especially hot & sweaty trip recently where I was carrying my P30 IWB, I ended up at the end of one day with significant rust issues - bad enough that the rust ate clean through the finish on my slide.
I've switched to Corrosion-X for the exterior rust protection role, and just use FL on the moving parts...
Regards,
Kevin
My buddy has one in 9, and had the same ejection problem, hitting him in the head(top).
After getting fiber sights on my production gun, I'm more open to having fibers on a carry gun. Id need to look at these up close tho.
Is the shooter side of the fiber tunnel countersunk any to allow for a slight flare?
sent from my gun using my sights
I'm not sure I know exactly what you mean, maybe someone else can chime in
A bit off-topic, but, while I LOVE FL as a lube, I've been significantly disappointed with it's corrosion resistance. In fact, during an especially hot & sweaty trip recently where I was carrying my P30 IWB, I ended up at the end of one day with significant rust issues - bad enough that the rust ate clean through the finish on my slide.
I've switched to Corrosion-X for the exterior rust protection role, and just use FL on the moving parts...
Regards,
Kevin
ill keep that in mind. So far, especially on my DD, it seems to hold up pretty well. My rifle went through one rough weekend last month and I intentionally left it muddy, dirty and a bit wet for a few days to see how it held up. After a quick wipe down it went back to sparkly new.
theblackknight
08-18-12, 11:45
His gun flings casings straight up
His gun flings casings straight up
mine quit that after the first 100 rds or so. It shoots like a champ now.
FSS kit got into today, thanks G&R tactical. I'm dropping this pistol off at the local gunsmith for installation tomorrow, will also have them apply something around the front fiber optic to avoid any future issues there.
Later in september I'll be running a pistol course with the new setup and put it through the paces.
Ran the VTAC through a defensive handgun course yesterday. The FSS makes a world of difference. I was a bit hesitant at first to be carrying something with such a light trigger but the AEK is built very well and I learned to trust it by the end of the day.
VTAC performance in the class:
Thing points very naturally for me. I was running through drills with no problems. The front fiber optic sight stayed in place just fine. At 25 yards, I was shooting way up and to the left. Hopefully, with some work I can figure out what is going on because at 15 yds the bullets went exactly where i wanted them. After about 300 rounds of aguila 124 gr I started to experience light strikes. A quick cycle of the slide usually remedied the issue, but I am a little disappointed that it only took 300 rounds for this to start occurring.
I attended a 1/2 day pistol, 1/2 rifle, skill builder course yesterday, kind of a tactical refresher course to knock some of the cobwebs off. I took my 9mm VTAC with me and ran it during the AM pistol session. I was running 124 gr HP ammo, total round count was just over 400 rounds for the 1/2 day. The pistol was neither cleaned, nor lubed before the course. I did not experience any malfunctions of any kind. Ranges shot were from 25 to 3 yards. At the end a little competitive shooting was introduced with steel plates and a 5" disc dueling tree was shot from 15 yards. I won the first string on the dueling tree with four rounds, three initial hits, and a single "flip back", however, I completely blew the second string with a fumbled reload, sometimes I am a cross between window-licker and a complete klutz. Accuracy of the pistol was exceptional, and in my experience better than my personally owned HK USPc .40 duty pistol and better than the three duty pistols that preceded it, SIG P229s in .40 and .357 (1 DAK, 1 DAO, 1 DA/SA).
When I first got the VTAC 9mm I found lining up the very narrow from sight to be slow for me as I was not used to so much "light" on each side of the front sight but I find that I can run the pistol much faster now after having fired a couple of thousand rounds through the gun. When a precision shot is required that narrow front blade reigns supreme. For those that opine that the double dots are distracting, they are completely wrong, in daylight the night sight dots are nearly invisible when shooting quickly, you just do not see them as your eyes are drawn to the Hi-viz dots.
As mentioned earlier in the thread, when I first got the pistol the front sight Hi-viz backed out. I repaired it myself and the sights have been without issue since. If anything was going to knock tubes loose yesterday would have been it but it didn't happen so I am going to consider it an issue solved.
A few months ago I picked up a bone stock .40 slide assembly for the gun to rotate to on occasion. For now it has the stock three dot sights. I am undecided at the moment what I want to do with the sights on it. I am actually considering adding the VTAC sights to it for consistency.
I ran the course wearing gloves for the entirety as I had gotten a deal on some Mechanix brand gloves, some basic models in FDE and some of the impact gloves in camo that I intended for rifle use. (touching a hot FSB just once reinforces the need for gloves).
Back when I was on patrol I wore gloves all the time and went the extra step every quarter to shoot in gloves in order to "practice the way you play". I find that wearing gloves when pistol shooting to be very advantageous. The right gloves can increase grip and absorb shock and recoil. I find that I shoot much better in gloves and am going to work gloves back into my personal and professional shooting, even if I am not on patrol anymore I do wear gloves during enforcement operations and training so is a net benefit.
For those that malign the M&P as inaccurate I find that mine is as accurate, or better than any duty pistol I have ever owned. It is not a target pistol, never intended to be, and a target pistol is not something I have any use for. I do however use duty pistols and the M&P shines as a duty pistol and if I could carry one so, I would.
I attended a 1/2 day pistol, 1/2 rifle, skill builder course yesterday, kind of a tactical refresher course to knock some of the cobwebs off. I took my 9mm VTAC with me and ran it during the AM pistol session. I was running 124 gr HP ammo, total round count was just over 400 rounds for the 1/2 day. The pistol was neither cleaned, nor lubed before the course. I did not experience any malfunctions of any kind. Ranges shot were from 25 to 3 yards. At the end a little competitive shooting was introduced with steel plates and a 5" disc dueling tree was shot from 15 yards. I won the first string on the dueling tree with four rounds, three initial hits, and a single "flip back", however, I completely blew the second string with a fumbled reload, sometimes I am a cross between window-licker and a complete klutz. Accuracy of the pistol was exceptional, and in my experience better than my personally owned HK USPc .40 duty pistol and better than the three duty pistols that preceded it, SIG P229s in .40 and .357 (1 DAK, 1 DAO, 1 DA/SA).
When I first got the VTAC 9mm I found lining up the very narrow from sight to be slow for me as I was not used to so much "light" on each side of the front sight but I find that I can run the pistol much faster now after having fired a couple of thousand rounds through the gun. When a precision shot is required that narrow front blade reigns supreme. For those that opine that the double dots are distracting, they are completely wrong, in daylight the night sight dots are nearly invisible when shooting quickly, you just do not see them as your eyes are drawn to the Hi-viz dots.
As mentioned earlier in the thread, when I first got the pistol the front sight Hi-viz backed out. I repaired it myself and the sights have been without issue since. If anything was going to knock tubes loose yesterday would have been it but it didn't happen so I am going to consider it an issue solved.
A few months ago I picked up a bone stock .40 slide assembly for the gun to rotate to on occasion. For now it has the stock three dot sights. I am undecided at the moment what I want to do with the sights on it. I am actually considering adding the VTAC sights to it for consistency.
I ran the course wearing gloves for the entirety as I had gotten a deal on some Mechanix brand gloves, some basic models in FDE and some of the impact gloves in camo that I intended for rifle use. (touching a hot FSB just once reinforces the need for gloves).
Back when I was on patrol I wore gloves all the time and went the extra step every quarter to shoot in gloves in order to "practice the way you play". I find that wearing gloves when pistol shooting to be very advantageous. The right gloves can increase grip and absorb shock and recoil. I find that I shoot much better in gloves and am going to work gloves back into my personal and professional shooting, even if I am not on patrol anymore I do wear gloves during enforcement operations and training so is a net benefit.
For those that malign the M&P as inaccurate I find that mine is as accurate, or better than any duty pistol I have ever owned. It is not a target pistol, never intended to be, and a target pistol is not something I have any use for. I do however use duty pistols and the M&P shines as a duty pistol and if I could carry one so, I would.
Are you sure it's really *more* accurate than the Sig's and HK's? Perhaps it has something to do with the M&P being in 9mm which is obviously much easier to be accurate with, than say a .40 caliber.
The inaccuracy thing with M&P9's is said to be at a distance. Supposedly pretty noticeable compared to other "service" pistols, even. Don't get your panties in a bunch, again, I'm not speaking from experience. I'm just saying that's the word on these forums, it seems. I don't really feel like digging up the multiple threads on the forum about this. Take a look around, it's common knowledge 'round these parts it seems.
Again, I have no dog in this fight and I do like M&P weapons.
Mine has issues at 25 yds. Anything closer it is dead on. Once I get my fitted barrel I'm sure there will be no concerns.
Still, even with the up to the left drift at distances, I was able to hit a large gong out at 100 yds during a pistol shoot a few weeks ago.
RioGrandeGreen
11-19-12, 15:32
A buddy at the range let me shoot his VTAC M&P 40 the other day. Not bad once I got used to the trigger. We had a steel target 75 yards out and I hit it about 4 out of 6 times. I like it FWIW.
Are you sure it's really *more* accurate than the Sig's and HK's? Perhaps it has something to do with the M&P being in 9mm which is obviously much easier to be accurate with, than say a .40 caliber.
The inaccuracy thing with M&P9's is said to be at a distance. Supposedly pretty noticeable compared to other "service" pistols, even. Don't get your panties in a bunch, again, I'm not speaking from experience. I'm just saying that's the word on these forums, it seems. I don't really feel like digging up the multiple threads on the forum about this. Take a look around, it's common knowledge 'round these parts it seems.
Again, I have no dog in this fight and I do like M&P weapons.
I regularly carry, shoot, and qual with .40. I either clean our qual or am 1 to 3 points off, usually a flier that I know what my error was the second it went down range. Shooting .40 quickly and accurately is not something that I have an issue with. I also have a .40 slide assembly for my VTAC. Between the two slides I cannot discern an appreciable difference in accuracy 1.5 to 50 yards, nor is there a discernible difference in group sizes, 9mm against .40. Now, I do find that the very narrow front VTAC sight does have an advantage over a "stock" front sight in slow, aimed fire as it makes picking up smaller targets easier but I do not think I would want such a narrow blade on my duty gun. I have owned and been issued Berettas, SIGs, HK (currently) and even a S&W or two, based upon my service pistol experience I stand by the statement, that "I find that mine (M&P, 9mm or .40) is as accurate, or better than any duty pistol I have ever owned"(or been issued).
Hogsgunwild
11-20-12, 05:48
Are you sure it's really *more* accurate than the Sig's and HK's? Perhaps it has something to do with the M&P being in 9mm which is obviously much easier to be accurate with, than say a .40 caliber.
The inaccuracy thing with M&P9's is said to be at a distance. Supposedly pretty noticeable compared to other "service" pistols, even. Don't get your panties in a bunch, again, I'm not speaking from experience. I'm just saying that's the word on these forums, it seems. I don't really feel like digging up the multiple threads on the forum about this. Take a look around, it's common knowledge 'round these parts it seems.
Again, I have no dog in this fight and I do like M&P weapons.
There was / is an accuracy issue with SOME of M&P 9MMs. Some came from the factory better than others. It was an arbitrary thing and I suspect that there were guns sold that shot great and guns sold that were complete shit and many, many more somewhere in between. Mine was a 5" gun that degraded to off of the target at 25 yards. S&W replaced the barrel for me and now I have a 5" gun again.
My Walther PPQs in .40 and 9MM are easily capable of sub three inch groups fired off-hand and I suspect that the guns themselves are better than two inch if not better than 1.5 inches at 25 yards. I bring up the PPQs for control purposes as I typically blow out a fist-sized hole at 25 yards with a box or two of ammo. I can go for an entire range session using very few targets with the Walthers as I just put tape on my fliers which are in the white part of the B8 type targets (point being is there are just not many shots in the white, just a fist sized hole in the black). I could never do this with my M&P 9MM FS although many were produced that were much more accurate than mine.
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