View Full Version : redacted
VooDoo6Actual
04-25-12, 19:31
redacted.
Where's Charlie Sheen and Swayze when you need em? :eek:
davidjinks
04-25-12, 19:43
Quoted from article:
"Russian soldiers will receive preparatory training in Colorado’s Fort Carson with the US weaponry and equipment they are to use during the operation. The drills include parachuting, operation planning, reconnaissance, assault operations and evacuations by helicopter."
So why would they be using US weaponry and equipment if it's a joint training excersise?
Any joint training I've ever done with foreign militaries, they've always used their own issued equipment.
Moose-Knuckle
04-25-12, 21:04
The anti-terror exercises scheduled for May 2012 will get off to a flying start with a tactical landing operation and “terrorist” camp raid.
So basically they will have a mockup of a standard American neighborhood with pick-up trucks parked in the driveways that have NRA bumper stickers and American flags being flown in the front yards. The OPFOR will all be wearing blue jeans, t-shirts, and baseball caps and quoting the Constitution instead of wearing shemaghs and screaming phrases from the Quran.
:help:
Just a question, not saying that this COULDN'T be true, but is the site that this was posted on, reputable?
ETA: I did a quick search and couldn't come up with another site that had this article aside from some blog...maybe my googlefu is weak (?)
Move right along folks nothing to see here....
http://rt.com/news/russian-american-airborne-drill-923/
Is there anything in which you do not find a conspiracy or a cover-up? I'm not saying you're always wrong, or even often wrong, but when you (or anyone) share news or articles that fall into the "move along folks nothing to see here" category, it would be good to share your specific thoughts on how it fits into a larger malevolent scheme, trend, or agenda. Otherwise, you lose credibility and start to drift into the "way out there" crowd who sees a plot in literally everything. A brief clear, precise, and poignant statement written by you to accompany the link would go a long way toward preserving that credibility.
We have a local airport in my city (not SLC international, this is SLC #2 G.A. airport in West Jordan, shared by 2 Army Guard helicopter unites, one Apache and one Blackhawk).
My neighbor mentioned a few days ago that a Russian MI-8 and a Chinook were parked at the airport. Today I saw the Chinook flying and we drove by the airport (though not on the close road as that is one-way going the wrong way) and there was a tan or brown helicopter there that at a distance certainly did look like a Russian Helicopter of some sort, droopy blades and all. I wanted to drive by on the close road on the way home but forgot (they are doing construction on the road that I have to go on to go that way and so I generally avoid that area). I will have to remember to drive by tomorrow closer.
My neighbor thought may the 19th SFG was doing some exercises or something but he did not really know.
--
Interesting. Saw the same thing at Buffalo Intl last week when I was there. There was some older, foreign helo and a couple Chinooks doing touch n go's on an auxiliary runway.
Quoted from article:
"Russian soldiers will receive preparatory training in Colorado’s Fort Carson with the US weaponry and equipment they are to use during the operation. The drills include parachuting, operation planning, reconnaissance, assault operations and evacuations by helicopter."
So why would they be using US weaponry and equipment if it's a joint training excersise?
Any joint training I've ever done with foreign militaries, they've always used their own issued equipment.
Check out the AFG and EOtech on the Spetsnaz AK103 on the 4th photo down. I can't tell what make of light that is.
http://networkedblogs.com/wSJjx
DeltaSierra
04-28-12, 02:00
Oh, I'm terrified...
Seriously though, joint maneuvers are nothing to get all worked up over...
Moose-Knuckle
04-28-12, 02:09
The 160 SOAR/JSOC flying Blackhawks and Littlebirds . . .
through downtown L.A. back in January. . .
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/01/26/military-lapd-to-conduct-more-dramatic-helicopter-maneuvers-over-downtown-la/
. . .and downtown Chicago this month.
http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/news/metro/military-blackhawks-circle-downtown-skies-honing-urban-battle-skills-chicago-20120416
And now Russian helos in at least two other US cities. . .something tells me they're not training to look for Middle-Eastern men of military age wielding box cutters.
Joint military exercises aren't anything new, however, why are they training on our equipment? On our soil?
Yeah there's nothing wrong with NDAA and CISPA, or anything else that has been rammed through either. Don't worry everything is fine :alcoholic: If you put any thought into anything after studying history, you're just a conspiracy theorist and a nut job :rolleyes: How dare you think for yourself, what do you think this is, America?
Because we all know the MSM media is credible :rolleyes:
Not that we can trust Putin, but I wish we would have started this end of 2001 and offered to invite them back to Asstan with an apology.
Is there anything in which you do not find a conspiracy or a cover-up? I'm not saying you're always wrong, or even often wrong, but when you (or anyone) share news or articles that fall into the "move along folks nothing to see here" category, it would be good to share your specific thoughts on how it fits into a larger malevolent scheme, trend, or agenda. Otherwise, you lose credibility and start to drift into the "way out there" crowd who sees a plot in literally everything. A brief clear, precise, and poignant statement written by you to accompany the link would go a long way toward preserving that credibility.
He's "not always wrong or often wrong", yet he needs to explain himself to you or he loses credibility? I know of members here who thrive on conspiracy theories and Hop has never been one that I have ever seen. Most importantly, why would he need your approval to establish credibility here?
Next time you have the urge to dispense an thinly veiled insult to another member, this in the form of an elongated and rambling question, try just asking "Interesting, but can you explain what your issue is with this, assuming you have one?". Remember, "brief clear, precise, and poignant".
Just a question, not saying that this COULDN'T be true, but is the site that this was posted on, reputable?
ETA: I did a quick search and couldn't come up with another site that had this article aside from some blog...maybe my googlefu is weak (?)
I can't find any reputable source to corroborate this article.
He's "not always wrong or often wrong", yet he needs to explain himself to you or he loses credibility? I know of members here who thrive on conspiracy theories and Hop has never been one that I have ever seen. Most importantly, why would he need your approval to establish credibility here?
Next time you have the urge to dispense an thinly veiled insult to another member, this in the form of an elongated and rambling question, try just asking "Interesting, but can you explain what your issue is with this, assuming you have one?". Remember, "brief clear, precise, and poignant".
"Is there anything you don't find a conspiracy in" is not an affront to sensibilities or inherently disrespectful. In fact, it's a question that I've often asked some of my best friends. Let's try to tone the emotional sensitivity down a notch.
All I'm saying is that copying and pasting a link with no cohering explanation is not the best way to persuade or inform people, especially when the veracity of the content is dubious. Sure, I can infer the underlying meaning, but a simple framing explanation by the person sharing the information benefits everyone, whether they agree or disagree.
That's all.
Joint military exercises aren't anything new, however, why are they training on our equipment? On our soil?
If this has people freaked out just imagine if they brought in their own weapons, ammo, and vehicles! I think the sight of an Mi-24 in US air space would be too much for some people.
scoutfsu99
04-28-12, 14:20
If this has people freaked out just imagine if they brought in their own weapons, ammo, and vehicles! I think the sight of an Mi-24 in US air space would be too much for some people.
Go down to Ft. Bliss. They're there all the time. Along with -17's.
The 160 SOAR/JSOC flying Blackhawks and Littlebirds . . .
through downtown L.A. back in January. . .
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/01/26/military-lapd-to-conduct-more-dramatic-helicopter-maneuvers-over-downtown-la/
. . .and downtown Chicago this month.
http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/news/metro/military-blackhawks-circle-downtown-skies-honing-urban-battle-skills-chicago-20120416
And now Russian helos in at least two other US cities. . .something tells me they're not training to look for Middle-Eastern men of military age wielding box cutters.
What de hell..
All I'm saying is that copying and pasting a link with no cohering explanation is not the best way to persuade or inform people, especially when the veracity of the content is dubious. Sure, I can infer the underlying meaning, but a simple framing explanation by the person sharing the information benefits everyone, whether they agree or disagree.
That's all.
I agree. I'd add that topics like this should have better sources than some unknown blog or website.
"Is there anything you don't find a conspiracy in" is not an affront to sensibilities or inherently disrespectful.
Actually I'd rather suspect it to be the polar opposite myself, but maybe I'm not that smart.
All I'm saying is that copying and pasting a link with no cohering explanation is not the best way to persuade or inform people, especially when the veracity of the content is dubious.
Now there you go referencing an incoherent explanation. Anyway, either way I agree the news isn't groundbreaking. But one can't deny that they aren't our typical training allies, being that they likely have hundreds of nuclear missiles targeted on our major cities and all.
I work in company that employees about 20 young men that reside in central Jersey.
I'm astonished at how many of them follow the infowars mantra and believe in all kinds of convoluted conspiracy theories.
SJC, sadly most people are gullible and less intelligent than we hope they would be. Now that said, I'm just wondering what the conspiracy is supposed to be. Sounds more like bad judgment via ideology, not that we are allowing the Russians to infiltrate covertly.
Seriously though, joint maneuvers are nothing to get all worked up over...
With the RUSSIANS? In Conus? That's plenty to raise an eyebrow over.
Especially when we have a Marxist for pres, and the sec def said that the DoD gets orders to deploy and make war from the U.N. not Congress.
Joint military exercises aren't anything new, however, why are they training on our equipment? On our soil?
Yeah there's nothing wrong with NDAA and CISPA, or anything else that has been rammed through either. Don't worry everything is fine :alcoholic: If you put any thought into anything after studying history, you're just a conspiracy theorist and a nut job :rolleyes: How dare you think for yourself, what do you think this is, America?
Because we all know the MSM media is credible :rolleyes:
Fan****ingTastic
None of this passes the sniff test. I don't like it. No real theories as to what ends these exercises serve, I just don't like it. Our country is on the teetering edge of economic failure, more divided than ever before (minus 1861), and with global socialist authoritarians at the helm. I wouldn't put it past them to "never let a good crisis go to waste" and use a period of disorder to move against the last bastions of the constitution. Call me a tinfoiler, I don't give two turds. It doesn't feel right. I don't like it.
Alaskapopo
04-29-12, 01:59
Oh, I'm terrified...
Seriously though, joint maneuvers are nothing to get all worked up over...
I would be more worried about our equipment and anything not nailed down being stolen.
Alaskapopo
04-29-12, 02:00
With the RUSSIANS? In Conus? That's plenty to raise an eyebrow over.
Especially when we have a Marxist for pres, and the sec def said that the DoD gets orders to deploy and make war from the U.N. not Congress.
Fan****ingTastic
None of this passes the sniff test. I don't like it. No real theories as to what ends these exercises serve, I just don't like it. Our country is on the teetering edge of economic failure, more divided than ever before (minus 1861), and with global socialist authoritarians at the helm. I wouldn't put it past them to "never let a good crisis go to waste" and use a period of disorder to move against the last bastions of the constitution. Call me a tinfoiler, I don't give two turds. It doesn't feel right. I don't like it.
Ok you sound like a tinfoiler. Who is them? The great conspiracy. Our government is not organized enough to accomplish a 1/10th of what some people think. Being in Alaska I have heard nearly every wacko theory there is and its just rubbish.
Pat
Moose-Knuckle
04-29-12, 02:31
Our government is not organized enough to accomplish a 1/10th of what some people think. Being in Alaska I have heard nearly every wacko theory there is and its just rubbish.
Pat
Wow, that just dismissed every conspiracy from Lincoln to the moon landings. . . :neo:
Ok you sound like a tinfoiler. Who is them? The great conspiracy. Our government is not organized enough to accomplish a 1/10th of what some people think. Being in Alaska I have heard nearly every wacko theory there is and its just rubbish.
Pat
You know there is a problem when people's first inclination is to create conspiracies rather that question the veracity of the source.
Another thing:
Doesn't Russia sell SAMs to Iran? (not directly, of course). Haven't they worked with Iran on nuclear capabilities? Haven't they deployed naval forces to Syria to prop up Assad? Haven't they pledged allegiance to Iran in the event Israel attacks?
They should never have boots on our soil. Ever. Why not bring Al Qaeda in for some drills and instruction? **** this noise
I won't be surprised at all if some good old boys go ruskie huntin with their deer rifles.
Ok you sound like a tinfoiler. Who is them?
And I wear it as a badge of honor sir.
"them" are enemies of our constitution, entrenched in every institution we have. Particularly prevalent in the white house, congress, and a few alphabet agencies. "them" are also the owners of the federal reserve. "them" are also the presstitutes, the MSM disinformation machine.
You don't think there's been a focused effort to strip away right after right and morph them into privaledges? Maybe it's not happening in Alaska, idk. But it's happening here. No conspiracy. It's reality. And you have folks that have given interviews stating that they love a good crisis, because it allows them to pass bills and enact changes that the people usually won't put up with.
Anyway, back on topic.
Russia blows
As I recall, the Saudis kept F-15s at Nellis for training. I think the Germans did too back in the '90s. I remember seeing their former E. German Mig-29s in the air on more than one occasion. We had several Brits deployed with us in the Marines, a couple of helo pilots and a Harrier pilot.
The exchange of military officers has been an American tradition dating back to before the signing of the Constitution. The providing of training to friend, and near foe serves our national interest. It builds bridges and lines of communication that have aided us in times of emergency. The Captain or Lieutenant that we cultivate today is the ally General we may desperately need twenty years from now. For every American military officer we have attending a foreign command and staff college (hundreds) or pursuing an advanced degree at a foreign college (hundreds more) there are just as many foreign military officers attending here. Not only is this a huge display of goodwill between nations but also a very overt form of intel collection on the part of all sides, better done in the open than clandestinely, where collection slip-ups embarrass nations. A company or battalion of Russian paratroopers, without any infrastructure, or support other than being provided is no threat to anyone but rather an en excellent opportunity for us.
http://fimv.narod.ru/misc/992083a.jpg
OMG!!!! Migs over Nevada
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/US_Navy_100625-G-7265M-396_Russian_Sailors_man_the_rails_as_Russian_navy_missile-cruiser_Varyag_departs_San_Francisco_Bay.jpg/800px-US_Navy_100625-G-7265M-396_Russian_Sailors_man_the_rails_as_Russian_navy_missile-cruiser_Varyag_departs_San_Francisco_Bay.jpg
Russian Federation Guided Missile Cruiser Varyag with the Golden Gate Bridge in the background.
http://files.air-attack.com/MIL/f15/f15s_rf12-2_20120201.jpg
Saudi F-15 over Nevada.
You know there is a problem when people's first inclination is to create conspiracies rather that question the veracity of the source.
The MSM is credible :rolleyes: Since we're all firearm enthusiasts here. How well has the MSM covered Project Gunwalker and the ATF ???? I rest my case.
Ok you sound like a tinfoiler. Who is them? The great conspiracy.
I would recommend you all do some research on the The Fed, how it came about, by whom, the great power they yield of the current financial system for their own personal gain. The Rothchilds, Rockefellers, IMF, World Bank, Fabian Socialists, Council of Foreign Relations, Bildeberg Group, who some of them are, what they believe.
DeltaSierra
04-29-12, 10:30
With the RUSSIANS? In Conus? That's plenty to raise an eyebrow over.
Especially when we have a Marxist for pres, and the sec def said that the DoD gets orders to deploy and make war from the U.N. not Congress.
You realize that the current Government in Russia is extremely anti-Marxist, right....?
There are plenty of real things that should be concerning you right now, and a few Russian troops cross-training on US weapons isn't one of them...
DeltaSierra
04-29-12, 10:36
I would recommend you all do some research on the The Fed, how it came about, by whom, the great power they yield of the current financial system for their own personal gain. The Rothchilds, Rockefellers, IMF, World Bank, Fabian Socialists, Council of Foreign Relations, Bildeberg Group, who some of them are, what they believe.
And....
Somehow you are trying to make a connection between understanding how the global banksters operate, and a joint training operation between US and Russian troops.....?
The problem is that you discredit yourself when you cry "wolf" when there is no wolf..... Then, people aren't going to listen when you start talking about issues like the Federal Reserve, since they already know you are the same guy that was freaking out over _________.
In general, being prone to believing conspiracy theories is an indication that a person doesn't have a grasp on how the world works. While more educated on various issues of concern than the general population, the theorists often know just enough to get themselves into logical trouble. Rather than study and truly understand how things like global markets, foreign policy, the military, and the Federal Reserve work, conspiracy theorists will invent and fabricate the existence of malevolent forces that control these things. It may be an issue of comfort; nobody wants to be a spectator while the world passes around them, with no idea how or why things happen.
The ancient Greeks used to believe that lightning and thunder came from Zeus. They had no idea how weather worked, but in order to explain the flashing and rumbling in the sky, they invented an explanation in order to maintain a semblance of control over their world. Zeus' lightning is the modern conspiracy theorist's Illuminati. Something happens in the global markets? Must be illuminati, right? In reality, a few basic courses on macro-economics could demystify and explain the whole thing.
I'm not arguing that everything is peachy in the world, just that if you want to change the current state of affairs, you should educate yourself on and involve yourself in the issues, rather than spend your time inventing all powerful boogymen, with almost god-like properties to explain away every evil in the world while you sit behind a computer and marvel at it all.
Come on now.
Do any of you really believe that our top military brass would allow enough hardware, arms and personnel of ANY foreign nation inside this country to pose a serious threat?
Really?
I think it may be more along the lines of......"keep your friends close...your enemies closer".
DeltaSierra
04-29-12, 11:17
Do any of you really believe that our top military brass would allow enough hardware, arms and personnel of ANY foreign nation inside this country to pose a serious threat?
Well...
Just look at how the US Gov't has supplied Las Zetas - who pose more of a threat to our national security than any "radical" Islamic types ever have....
Mo_Zam_Beek
04-29-12, 12:06
Our government is not organized enough to accomplish a 1/10th of what some people think.
Let's put a pin in the topic of the thread to discuss the above for a half second. While I generally agree the US Government and it's divisions as individual and a collective entity could easily be part of a 'How many Government processes does it take to accomplish X"; we need to remember a few pivotable points in history that involved a relatively small group of persons from the US Gov that led to significant change:
- The arming of mujahideen against Russia (read Charlie Wilson's War to get a clear picture of how few people were actually involved)
- The creation of the Fed Reserve (read The Creature from Jekyll Island)
Today, we also have some things that are done in full public view:
- Leon Panetta telling congress that international permission trumps congressional approval
- Passage of health care without ever reading it even though it will likely be deemed unconstitutional
Also the comment:
In general, being prone to believing conspiracy theories is an indication that a person doesn't have a grasp on how the world works. - in the most general of terms yes. However and conversely, those that don't understand that history is replete with examples where a very small group of powerful people manipulated a situation in order to bring about an event in order to further their own objectives - don't have a grasp of how the world works either.
Back on topic, the topic is controversial and should have additional cites. That said, the velocity of change which has a net result of stripping personal freedom from the US Citizen has been occurring a seemingly ever increasing pace the last 20 yrs. By the same token, 20 years ago you were a conspiracy theorist that didn't understand the way the world worked if you said that the powers that be were moving toward one world government. Today if you say that the move toward one world government doesn't exist, the nicest thing anyone can say about you and your level of awareness and intellect is that you have your head in the sand.
Good luck
VooDoo6Actual
04-29-12, 12:51
redacted.
And....
Somehow you are trying to make a connection between understanding how the global banksters operate, and a joint training operation between US and Russian troops.....?
The problem is that you discredit yourself when you cry "wolf" when there is no wolf..... Then, people aren't going to listen when you start talking about issues like the Federal Reserve, since they already know you are the same guy that was freaking out over _________.
I wasn't trying to make a connection between the global bankers and this joint training. I wasn't really adressing the joint op at all, other than why? I got sidetracked when trying to make my point about conspiracy theories.
I was trying to use the Project Gunwalker scandal as an example of how credible the MSM really is. Some people believe that if it's not in the MSM, then it can't possibly be true. The sheeple would call us conspiracy theorists for believing that Holder allowed guns to walk to use an excuse for more gun control laws. See how that works?
In general, being prone to believing conspiracy theories is an indication that a person doesn't have a grasp on how the world works. While more educated on various issues of concern than the general population, the theorists often know just enough to get themselves into logical trouble. Rather than study and truly understand how things like global markets, foreign policy, the military, and the Federal Reserve work, conspiracy theorists will invent and fabricate the existence of malevolent forces that control these things. It may be an issue of comfort; nobody wants to be a spectator while the world passes around them, with no idea how or why things happen.
The ancient Greeks used to believe that lightning and thunder came from Zeus. They had no idea how weather worked, but in order to explain the flashing and rumbling in the sky, they invented an explanation in order to maintain a semblance of control over their world. Zeus' lightning is the modern conspiracy theorist's Illuminati. Something happens in the global markets? Must be illuminati, right? In reality, a few basic courses on macro-economics could demystify and explain the whole thing.
I'm not arguing that everything is peachy in the world, just that if you want to change the current state of affairs, you should educate yourself on and involve yourself in the issues, rather than spend your time inventing all powerful boogymen, with almost god-like properties to explain away every evil in the world while you sit behind a computer and marvel at it all.
I know there's many more pieces of the puzzle in the global economy than just the Fed. Global economy vs monetary policy and banking aren't the same subject, they interact and affect one another, but they aren't the same subject.
DeltaSierra
04-29-12, 13:08
I wasn't trying to make a connection between the global bankers and this joint training. I wasn't really adressing the joint op at all, other than why? I got sidetracked when trying to make my point about conspiracy theories.
I was trying to use the Project Gunwalker scandal as an example of how credible the MSM really is. Some people believe that if it's not in the MSM, then it can't possibly be true. The sheeple would call us conspiracy theorists for believing that Holder allowed guns to walk to use an excuse for more gun control laws. See how that works?
I know there's many more pieces of the puzzle in the global economy than just the Fed. Global economy vs monetary policy and banking aren't the same subject, they interact and affect one another, but they aren't the same subject.
OK, gotcha...
I lean towards the "conspiracy theorist" side of things, simply because I don't think everything can be accepted at face value, but I also don't like to get to deep into that sort of stuff - I guess I just don't believe what the MSM says, but don't care to get to involved in the "what if" aspect of things that I can't know for certain....
I have not responded for a number of reasons.
I share intel/data mining/EEI for those that are autonomous enough to be enlightented.
I'm not compelled to make any commentary for a number of reasons. It also is not mandated here.
I could careless about your veiled condescending attempt to draw me into lack of credibility issue etc. Nuff said.
I have no desire or need to get into a non-sensical didactic discussion that is based on semantics, ignorance, lymbic brained emotional responses. Vituperative comments/discussions have no place in my lifestyle.
If you do you agree that is your right & fine by me. But to judgements/intellectual ambushes (veiled or unveiled) or make commentary based on one's own lack of research, comprehension, beliefs is intellectually dishonest and not worth the bandwidth. I have no desire to prove credibility to anyone. Those who know me & my background already know that.
To get into a discussion about media credibility these days is about as useful as teets on a boar hog.
RT is & has been very credible thus far & fast more accurate than many "other" US sponsored INTEL source (i.e. "LIGNET".)
"The absense of evidence is not evidence of absence."
Quod Erat Demostratum......
You either get it or you don't...
Remember, those in power currently are counting on people like you...
I'm done here w/ any further commentary on this specific issue.
You may contact me offline for further dialogue
http://rt.com/news/troops-russian-drills-america-214/
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-04-25/news/31397600_1_drill-simulating-service-members-the-military-exercises
http://theintelhub.com/2012/04/26/russian-troops-on-american-soil/
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/report-russian-troops-to-seize-cia-facility-in-elaborate-war-game-on-u-s-soil/
http://riggedreality.com/news-russian-troops-to-train-us-troops-on-targeting-terrorists-in-usa/
http://votingamerican.wordpress.com/2012/04/27/red-dawn-russian-paratroopers-to-invade-cia-and-denver-international-airport-in-war-games-with-us-troops/
http://www.drudge.com/news/156214/russian-troops-coming-colorado
Hate citing this one because I don't think he is always legit either, BUT it is viable in this instance.
http://www.infowars.com/dod-confirms-russian-troops-to-train-on-u-s-soil/
If you've taken anything I've said as hostile, then I apologize. My intentions have all along been to have a good point / counterpoint debate about this, which is a mutually beneficial thing. If anything I said came off as "Ad Hominem," it was not meant to.
I'm just curious what it is that you're trying to say. You still have not actually made a point. You've essentially just posted a news article and said "the sky is falling," then criticized as pawns anyone who does not agree that the sky is in fact falling. Doesn't this remind you of the behavior of the so called "powers that be," to which you are opposed?
Of course you do not have to explain anything, but I would think posting something on an open forum is an invitation to be challenged. Why anyone would post something and then refuse to discuss it is, well, confusing.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So far in this thread, I have seen neither a claim, nor evidence to support this as of yet unstated claim. You spoke of agreeing and disagreeing. You have posted nothing to agree or disagree with in the first place.
So, if you wish to have an actual discussion of substance, why not quickly outline what you believe the news articles you've posted to mean in the context of a greater scheme, and what evidence you have to substantiate your beliefs? We'll go from there.
If not, and you want to let your copied and pasted news articles stand on their own with whatever hidden meaning they are supposed to contain, then I'll respect that and let it go.
Your numerous edits to your reply since I began responding to it have made your position clear (odd that it doesn't show as being edited).
So I'll let it go and stop pressing you. Take it easy. And again, no personal disrespect was intended. Unless you view somebody attempting to have a dialectic discussion as an attack, then, again, no offense was intended. If you do view having your position challenged as disrespect, then I suppose you should be offended.
In general, being prone to believing conspiracy theories is an indication that a person doesn't have a grasp on how the world works.
This +1000000. And any knowledge they possess generally comes from highly biased or fictional sources. Or every now and then, factual information is cherry picked to fit their "theory" of the world.
a0cake, just know that you're wasting your breath with some of these folks. You've got a cooler head then I do but eventually the tinners will get to you.
They should never have boots on our soil. Ever. Why not bring Al Qaeda in for some drills and instruction? **** this noise.
You do realize we train terrorists when it suits our goals. This has been on the local news (http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-04-09/news/31311480_1_mek-terrorist-organization-intelligence) as of late.
DeltaSierra
04-29-12, 14:37
You do realize we train terrorists when it suits our goals. This has been on the local news (http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-04-09/news/31311480_1_mek-terrorist-organization-intelligence) as of late.
And, as it has already been pointed out, the US arms Mexican drug lords...
Hmm.... Everyone seems to be all up in arms over a joint training operation with Russian troops, but I never heard anyone complaining when the US helped to arm Georgia prior to their attack on Russia...
When the government is actually doing this sort of stuff (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/opinion/sunday/terrorist-plots-helped-along-by-the-fbi.html), it certainly becomes easier to believe what might not be true but sounds plausible because of what they are actually doing.
Rather than study and truly understand how things like global markets, foreign policy, the military, and the Federal Reserve work, conspiracy theorists will invent and fabricate the existence of malevolent forces that control these things.
Do you believe it's possible that extremely powerful men could get together and make agreements behind closed doors?
Do you believe it's possible that those agreements could often work against the best interests of the little people and their liberty?
Do you believe it's possible that some men are so wealthy that they can insist on staying out of the press? Is Bill Gates really the worlds richest man?
Do you think it's possible that bankers have funded both sides of wars, playing people and nations off each other for profit?
Do you think it's possible that once men control money and the issuance and regulation thereof, wealth means nothing to them? That they might view wealth as a means of acquiring power?
This is all common sense. There are decisions made and campaigns undertaken that no one knows about. Some of those decisions are bad for us.
Conspiracy theory? Yes. Direct, tangible evidence is quite hard to come by. Circumstantial evidence is easier. But if men are powerful enough to own governments, they will own them. And power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I've compiled a list of quotes here:
http://youralarm.blogspot.com/?m=0
They're outstanding, and they'll give you a better understanding of how this American experiment was supposed to work, and how it all went horribly wrong.
SMETNA, arguing that entities such as the Federal Reserve or the banks have too much power and tend to abuse it is not a conspiracy theory. Ambitious men using their power to usurp the common man's freedom for their own purposes is nothing new. There is a legitimate case to be made that it's happening right now in the ways you've alluded to.
What I've been speaking against are ill-defined and unsubstantiated claims. Some shadow international government in the form of the Illuminati controlling everything from banking, to foreign policy, to the weather, and backed by reptilian aliens? Now that's a conspiracy theory of the kind I've been criticizing.
What I'm suggesting is that educated, fact-based, rational, and nuanced discussion is the best course of action when approaching these issues. When this approach is taken, most all of the common conspiracy theories collapse under the weight of logic and information. And if they don't collapse completely, the issues at least become more accessible, and the root causes and eventual solutions less mystical.
Alright, I got ya.
Yeah, the HAARP stuff, the Reptoid stuff, all of that is silliness. Agreed 100%.
I just don't understand how there can be mass-media, military, government, and banking institutions all working in tandem toward a similar goal without some kind of plan or agreement. I.e. conspiracy.
It's almost like watching four toddlers climb up on each others shoulders, working together, trying to reach the cookie jar, and then claiming there's no central plan there. Merely coincidence.
When the government is actually doing this sort of stuff (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/opinion/sunday/terrorist-plots-helped-along-by-the-fbi.html), it certainly becomes easier to believe what might not be true but sounds plausible because of what they are actually doing.
Why are you using a typical NYT hit piece here as your example? Let the feds weed out all of the wanna be bombing extremists they want, this of any faith.
As practical and justified a usage of power there could ever be. Society has no use for would be mass murders, as the jury must have noticed.
The MSM is credible :rolleyes: Since we're all firearm enthusiasts here. How well has the MSM covered Project Gunwalker and the ATF ???? I rest my case.
I'm talking about first hand knowledge by other members of the military - not media reports. Many of us who are still in the Army have contacts that should have heard something about this joint endeavor if it truly is the scope that that articles claim. There are a few "red flags" that "jump out" (puns intended) at me as being inconsistent with my 15+ years in the Army (more than half in the 18th Airborne Corps).
First, all of the articles that the OP provided seem to re-quote the original source article and this Russian colonel. I don't recall any US sources verifying his claims. Second, the article claims that the training exercise will include an airborne operation that will involve the seizure of the main runways and terminal at Denver Int'l Airport. OK, this should strike people as very odd on several fronts since this airport is a major hub that is operational at most hours. In addition, airport seizures involve BN-sized elements (google Panama) - not 20 Russians and a handful of American SF soldiers like the article claims. In addition, one of the articles admits that the quoted officials at UC Denver are denying any knowledge of the drone army that is mentioned in some of the articles.
I would not be surprised is there is some form of training exercise between US and Russian forces. Hell, I had foreign military in my Airborne class at Benning over 13 years ago, and Malaysians (and probably others) were going through Ranger School back in the day. However, I'm still not seeing enough evidence to support the scope of operation that is being described. Feel free to disagree, but I'd like to know when you last saw a platoon sized element training take an airfield.
"West Coast. East Coast. Down here is Mexico. First wave of the attack came in disguised as commercial charter flights same way they did in Afghanistan in '80. Only they were crack Airborne outfits. Now they took these passes in the Rockies..."
Moose-Knuckle
04-30-12, 04:25
As I recall, the Saudis kept F-15s at Nellis for training. I think the Germans did too back in the '90s. I remember seeing their former E. German Mig-29s in the air on more than one occasion. We had several Brits deployed with us in the Marines, a couple of helo pilots and a Harrier pilot.
The exchange of military officers has been an American tradition dating back to before the signing of the Constitution. The providing of training to friend, and near foe serves our national interest. It builds bridges and lines of communication that have aided us in times of emergency. The Captain or Lieutenant that we cultivate today is the ally General we may desperately need twenty years from now. For every American military officer we have attending a foreign command and staff college (hundreds) or pursuing an advanced degree at a foreign college (hundreds more) there are just as many foreign military officers attending here. Not only is this a huge display of goodwill between nations but also a very overt form of intel collection on the part of all sides, better done in the open than clandestinely, where collection slip-ups embarrass nations. A company or battalion of Russian paratroopers, without any infrastructure, or support other than being provided is no threat to anyone but rather an en excellent opportunity for us.
http://fimv.narod.ru/misc/992083a.jpg
OMG!!!! Migs over Nevada
http://files.air-attack.com/MIL/f15/f15s_rf12-2_20120201.jpg
Saudi F-15 over Nevada.
Last I checked the Saudi's, Germans, and British were US allies. Not to mention the Saudi's purchase their F-15's from us so it is a no brainer that they receive training here. I have an uncle that lived in Turkey and helped them set up their F-16 program back in the day.
The issue here isn't the presence of foreign military joint maneuvers in CONUS, it's that this particular case involves the Russians.
davidjinks
04-30-12, 06:25
Hop,
I appreciate the fact you posted this information. The biggest thing that stood out in all of this is the fact they would be training/using US weapons and equipment.
As I said previously, never once in all the joint training operations I've been on did a foriegn military ever use US equipment. That means foriegn, allied forces in the US.
I have trained with and conducted operations overseas with foriegn military with US supplied equipment (Afghanistan). However that's a different story. I have been part of "train the trainer" type deals where we've given instruction on certain weapon systems to foriegn militaries however, it was a class.
As for some of you dudes here, I think you missed the point of the information that was posted. HOPLOETHOS did a pretty good job of explaining it so no reason to re-hash it. Not everything has to be conspiracy based. However the information presented, "is what it is".
VooDoo6Actual
04-30-12, 07:43
redacted.
VooDoo6Actual
04-30-12, 07:53
redacted.
Why are you using a typical NYT hit piece here as your example? Let the feds weed out all of the wanna be bombing extremists they want, this of any faith.
As practical and justified a usage of power there could ever be. Society has no use for would be mass murders, as the jury must have noticed.
Here's a couple more on the same subject.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment-fake-terror-plots?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038
http://politics.salon.com/2011/09/29/fbi_terror/singleton/
The issue here isn't the presence of foreign military joint maneuvers in CONUS, it's that this particular case involves the Russians.
so...are our men & women getting 'reciprocity':rolleyes: on russian dirt??
Here's a couple more on the same subject.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment-fake-terror-plots?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038
http://politics.salon.com/2011/09/29/fbi_terror/singleton/
So we are now giving credence to Salon and the NYT here? Are these really the sources we should be quoting, considering their well known agendas?
The stories are probably exaggerated by the leftist outlets, but even if some of it is true I say let them have at it. The all intimidating Russia still has periodic mass bombings due to extremism, for now we have none and want to keep it that way. Let every potential terrorist in this country feel afraid and uncertain of who they can trust. Let them know that we will go over and above, especially to find muslim based threats. It's the only way to deal with them, period.
This will be tolerated by the American people because they see what happens in other countries when extremism takes root. No one, left or right, wants it to start happening here. Worrying about infringing on "their" rights is like a shot to one's own foot, eventually we will pay with American lives.
Maybe I missed it in the articles, but does one single person here know WHICH specific weapons, equipment, or systems the Russians will have access to? Thermals? PVS-21's? Mortar systems? Javelins? M249's? T-10 parachutes?
Who knows?
But do you honestly believe that military leadership is going to allow access to sensitive systems?
More likely, the Russians will simply be briefed and trained to the level necessary for the safe use of US equipment. If they're using US aircraft, a brief period of instruction on the characteristics and capabilities of a C-130 or UH-60 is pretty necessary. Being familiar with the M240's on the bird is a good idea also. Harmless.
Given that we don't know specifics, why anybody would assume or be concerned that the Russians will be given secrets or information that will have any effect on the real world beyond their ability to train with use safely is strange.
For whatever reason the blurb "Russians training with US weapons" has found its way into most of these articles. It's highly likely that it's a case of the media latching onto a particularly inflammatory phrase and propagating it. In reality, it might be something as mundane as getting a brief on the UH-60...stuff that Russian intelligence services are already well aware of but is necessary for the soldiers on the ground to have hands on familiarity with to be safe.
Point is, none of us know for sure. Common sense says the reality is far less sinister than the speculation. I think the original post got it right. Move along, there really is nothing to see here.
PS - We can say the same, that "X is being trained on US weapons systems" for an incredibly large number of states and non-state actors around the world, from Afghanistan to Uganda. It's an ambiguous phrase, and may well refer to something as trivial and inconsequential (in the grand scheme of national defense) as small arms training.
Why are you using a typical NYT hit piece here as your example?
It was a headline fresh off Drudge and some of the federal tactics are questionable and fit right into the scheme of FUD used to excuse the passage of draconian laws. If they can create monsters for people to fear, they can get away with more than they could using honesty.
The issue here isn't the presence of foreign military joint maneuvers in CONUS, it's that this particular case involves the Russians.
There's also a difference between hosting air forces for joint combat maneuvers or allied special forces units for training purposes away from prying eyes , and having enemy ground troops on our soil where they'd never ever need to be and therefore where training would be of no benefit over doing it somewhere more relevant for their area of operation. Unless there is a reason.
So we are now giving credence to Salon and the NYT here? Are these really the sources we should be quoting, considering their well known agendas?
I wasn't really concerned with who the source was, I just wanted to see the story replicated somewhere else. There are very few sources that I trust, so I just take what I read from MSM stories at face value and try to make my own conclusions based on history and the direction of current events
The stories are probably exaggerated by the leftist outlets, but even if some of it is true I say let them have at it. The all intimidating Russia still has periodic mass bombings due to extremism, for now we have none and want to keep it that way. Let every potential terrorist in this country feel afraid and uncertain of who they can trust. Let them know that we will go over and above, especially to find muslim based threats. It's the only way to deal with them, period.
Making terrorists "feel afraid and uncertain" in this country just isn't going to happen under this administration. In fact they've done everything they can to not call a spade a spade. It seems to me that they are trying to make them feel MORE comfortable. Hell, we even keep our borders wide open for them to stroll right through. Oh and remember the war on terror is over :rolleyes:
This will be tolerated by the American people because they see what happens in other countries when extremism takes root. No one, left or right, wants it to start happening here. Worrying about infringing on "their" rights is like a shot to one's own foot, eventually we will pay with American lives.
I agree here...
Just some commentary on your post. Nothing confrontational, just my thoughts on the matters discussed.
If they can create monsters for people to fear...
So despite 9/11, worldwide terrorism and the fact that radical islamists have pledged our destruction and threaten more attacks, you believe it's all just a figment of someone's overactive imagination? You really still don't see the need to be proactive with this specific situation?
I know what you are afraid of, but again this is an exceptional circumstance and simply can't be dealt with status quo.
Just some commentary on your post. Nothing confrontational, just my thoughts on the matters discussed.
Certainly my friend, glad we agree. I suppose that perhaps Jay may have become sold on the idea that there is no war on terror or that it has somehow been won, but I suspect that the one and only reason there have been no more attacks here is due to proactive intelligence gathering, which has both thwarted and surely also discouraged organized attacks.
And as little a fan I am of the current administration, at the very least it doesn't seem that they are soft in this one respect. But that's probably just because they know that another attack here would be associated with the derelict sitting in the oval office.
So despite 9/11, worldwide terrorism and the fact that radical islamists have pledged our destruction and threaten more attacks, you believe it's all just a figment of someone's overactive imagination?
I said nothing of the sort. I'm not a "truther", tinfoiler, conspiracy theorist, or anything else of that sort. I linked to an article. You asked me why I linked to it. I explained why I linked to it. It is an article pointing out that some (SOME) of the threats are only really threats after the government holds their hands and sends them down such a path. It is a valid observation. Don't try to swing the discussion way off into left (or right) field. That's dishonest.
I suppose that perhaps Jay may have become sold on the idea that there is no war on terror or that it has somehow been won
I made one post with a link to a mainstream news article and now suddenly I'm lumped in with 9/11 truthers in your eyes. Good grief. :rolleyes: You're the one going to extremes, not me.
I suspect that the one and only reason there have been no more attacks here is due to proactive intelligence gathering
My intent with the original article link was to point out the the truth lies somewhere in between. Perhaps what your responses demonstrate is that you're afraid to consider that.
I'm talking about first hand knowledge by other members of the military - not media reports. Many of us who are still in the Army have contacts that should have heard something about this joint endeavor if it truly is the scope that that articles claim. There are a few "red flags" that "jump out" (puns intended) at me as being inconsistent with my 15+ years in the Army (more than half in the 18th Airborne Corps).
First, all of the articles that the OP provided seem to re-quote the original source article and this Russian colonel. I don't recall any US sources verifying his claims. Second, the article claims that the training exercise will include an airborne operation that will involve the seizure of the main runways and terminal at Denver Int'l Airport. OK, this should strike people as very odd on several fronts since this airport is a major hub that is operational at most hours. In addition, airport seizures involve BN-sized elements (google Panama) - not 20 Russians and a handful of American SF soldiers like the article claims. In addition, one of the articles admits that the quoted officials at UC Denver are denying any knowledge of the drone army that is mentioned in some of the articles.
I would not be surprised is there is some form of training exercise between US and Russian forces. Hell, I had foreign military in my Airborne class at Benning over 13 years ago, and Malaysians (and probably others) were going through Ranger School back in the day. However, I'm still not seeing enough evidence to support the scope of operation that is being described. Feel free to disagree, but I'd like to know when you last saw a platoon sized element training take an airfield.
See post 39.
I made one post with a link to a mainstream news article and now suddenly I'm lumped in with 9/11 truthers in your eyes. Good grief. :rolleyes: You're the one going to extremes, not me.
I have made no such accusation or implication. You stated "If they can create monsters for people to fear...", which clearly indicates that you believe there isn't a warranted threat, only a conjured up one.
What that would have to do with you being a truther I have no idea, as normally I associate the mindset with the left, not conspirists.
CarlosDJackal
04-30-12, 12:57
Quoted from article:
"Russian soldiers will receive preparatory training in Colorado’s Fort Carson with the US weaponry and equipment they are to use during the operation. The drills include parachuting, operation planning, reconnaissance, assault operations and evacuations by helicopter."
So why would they be using US weaponry and equipment if it's a joint training excersise?
Any joint training I've ever done with foreign militaries, they've always used their own issued equipment.
Not always so. I've done quite a few exercises with foreign troops where they ended up using our weapons because there is a lot of red tape they had to cut through to be able to bring their own, issued weapons.
IIRC, this happened at the International Sniper Competition at Fort Benning, GA where the foreign Snipers had to use the rifles issued by the Infantry School because of the importation restrictions. I also remember one where they were allowed to bring their weapons but had to use ammo issued by the US Army because they were not allowed to bring in their own.
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