View Full Version : M&P slide cracked at 21K rounds.
David Pennington
01-06-08, 21:06
The only reason I posted this is because I see people rushing to ditch other long-proven pistols to switch to the latest-greatest. I think the M&P is a great pistol and I think Smith really did their homework on the gun. I own one. That being said, I can't help but think that when people proclaim it as a way better gun than the 25 year old Glock, that we may be jumping the gun. A 2 year old design with a good record doesn't equal a 25 year old design with a good record.
I remember being one of the first to jump on the HK M4 magazine bandwagon before anyone had heard of an HK M4 magazine. I had 45 of them; that didn't work out so well... I was tempted by the PMag but the HK magazine issues have left me a bit gun-shy. If the PMag still looks good in 5 years, I may make a switch. I crack up when I here people saying that the military should start issuing PMags despite that fact that they have been around less than a year and only in the commercial market.
I remember getting bitten by a set screwed on gasblock becuase it was the latest-greatest. I think I was the first person to get John Noveske to taper pin an aftermarket gas block on after I went through Gunsite 556 with 2 guns that wouldn't run.
There is a lot to be said for being very, very conservative with guns that you use for serious purposes. Just my .02 worth.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/CMPshooter/MANDP.jpg
Robb Jensen
01-06-08, 21:09
That was Todd Greens slide IIRC he's like a Firefighter locked in a room with 2 bowling balls. Leave him in there for 10 min and he'll loose one and have broken the other. ;)
21,000 rounds? Game rounds or defense, or mix?
Very interesting!
If that's typical, I have a ways to go!
If he can spend that much money on factory ammo, replaceing a slide wont be that big of a deal.:D Unless smith will replace it for him for free.;) :D :cool:
Robb Jensen
01-06-08, 21:24
If he can spend that much money on factory ammo, replaceing a slide wont be that big of a deal.:D Unless smith will replace it for him for free.;) :D :cool:
S&W replaced the slide free of charge. Todd is a friend of mine.
That's an odd spot, any other pics? The way it separated is weird.
If that the only thing wrong I'd say great pistol. SW will replace the slide and I promise they won't blame the shooter and say the problem was caused by limp wristing.
Robb Jensen
01-06-08, 21:26
40 or 9?
It was a 9mm. Todd is a great shooter and will shoot the d**shit out of anything.
S&W replaced the slide free of charge. Todd is a friend of mine.
Good deal.:cool:. Do you think that we will see more of this at that round count(+or- a few thousand rounds) or do you think its more of a fluke?
Robb Jensen
01-06-08, 21:27
Good deal.:cool:. Do you think that we will see more of this at that round count(+or- a few thousand rounds) or do you think its more of a fluke?
I think it's a fluke, see my analogy above.
I guess %$@# happens. Thats why I have problems jumping on the newest bestest until it is proven. That is also why I read every class AAR here and on 10-8, lots of good info passed.
Interesting...
Wonder if the recoil spring was in good shape?
I guess %$@# happens. Thats why I have problems jumping on the newest bestest until it is proven. That is also why I read every class AAR here and on 10-8, lots of good info passed.
Keep the thread in line with learning what and why it happened.
As new products come into the market and nobody takes the time and money to test things, we will never have product improvement like we do.
Stuff breaks with any product.
Don't turn this into anything else.
I think it's a fluke, see my analogy above.
Got it, we posted at the same time,. Do you know how long it took him to reach that amout of rounds?
Wayne Dobbs
01-06-08, 22:26
Based on looking at Todd's site and looking at some of his testing reports, I would say he took less than six months to go through that 21K.
I had read Todd's AAR on another site. The gun was a M&P 9mm. Slide cracked at around the 21,500 mark (give or take 150 rounds). He shot the 21,000 rounds through this gun within a couple months. He was using an after market barrel in the gun (we will never know if the after market barrel had anything to do with the cracked slide). Todd stated was using a mix of different rounds through the gun.
He didn't notice the slide crack until after he had finished the range session.
Like David, I don't like being the first kid on the block to have the newest piece of gear on the market. Too many times I have gone out and purchased the industry's newest - coolest piece of gear, only to find out that it didn't work as advertised.
Any piece of machinery (cars, planes, industrial machines, house hold items, guns, etc) all have a service life and will all eventually wear out (some makes / models, sooner than others). That being said, if you think about it a failure like this at 21,000+ rounds isn't bad (not good, but not bad), especially when you consider that the 21.000 rounds were fired in the course of a couple months. How many here have the time to fire over 20,000 rounds in the course of a couple months?
-Jeff
Like David, I don't like being the first kid on the block to have the newest piece of gear on the market. Too many times I have gone out and purchased the industry's newest - coolest piece of gear, only to find out that it didn't work as advertised.
I know the feeling - I've been an unwilling beta tester for quite a few products that were production units, sold at retail or close to it.
21,000 rounds is a lot of shooting. If this becomes a recurring theme, I might be concerned, but at this time it looks like it might be an anomoly.
As I posted in Todd's thread, I think the front of the slide notch was colliding with the slide lock on the last round of the magazine. The slide lock in his pictures looks like it has wear on the front (instead of the back).
Also, there is a couple of other reports of this happening so S&W is aware of the issue, which I think they fixed a long time ago. That said, a few failures isn't a big deal especially with S&W going WAAAAAY beyond and sending out parts as needed.
It's certainly something us M&P owners need to watch but I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water just yet.
My collection is a place were M&P's, Glocks, and HK's can hang out with no issues at all.
I have to agree with you 100%. Switching the gun out just because it is the latest and greatest is not an intelligent choice.
Lots of folks don't like the G21 because of the size but I have little hands and without tooting my own horn I can handle the weapon very well. 25K rounds through my duty and 12K thorugh my personal. I take good care of them and PM them regularly.
One of my best buddies and S&W fans sold his G21 and got one. I don't think he is as happy either. He likes it but its not as proven as the G21 in my opinion. I always T&E it myself and put it through the wringer. I know I am a die hard Glock fan but our entire department including swat are 100% Glock. About 350+ guns 9, 40 and 45, your choice. You can carry what you want, if you buy it, but even the die hard 1911, Sig and HK fans have stayed with the Glocks. We have a very extensive shooting program in the academy and on the street plenty of range time for those that want it.
New Mexico State Police just traded all of their G31's in .357 for the new M&P in .357. The head armorer and range officer has always loved Smith autos. They stated that they had problems with the G31. Mostly with the slide rails. But Glock was fixing any problems so why switch? If it is a caliber problem and the gun is being beaten to death just go to 40 or 45.
I hope they don't regret their choice. They also bought a lot of the new M&P15's. I have heard that their are problems with them also.
:(
DANGER CLOSE
01-07-08, 03:10
every firearm has had teething problems when they are first produced. glocks included, now in version 3 for some reasons.
every firearm has had teething problems when they are first produced. glocks included, now in version 3 for some reasons.
Some alterations were to internal parts to enhance reliability but about 90% were cosmetic to enhance grip, light attachment, etc.
Most owners of the original Gen 1's still have them and they are running after decades of use.
I know all weapons do not start out perfect and many years of trial and error are required to get them to their best but I am just going along with the statement that you shouldn't leap before you look.
I personally would not carry an unproven gun into combat or on duty and I would not want to be the guinea pig PD that might have to pay the price for their inability to wait or one individuals personal opinion of what should be carried because he liked the old S&W autos.
Some alterations were to internal parts to enhance reliability but about 90% were cosmetic to enhance grip, light attachment, etc.
Most owners of the original Gen 1's still have them and they are running after decades of use.
I know all weapons do not start out perfect and many years of trial and error are required to get them to their best but I am just going along with the statement that you shouldn't leap before you look.
I personally would not carry an unproven gun into combat or on duty and I would not want to be the guinea pig PD that might have to pay the price for their inability to wait or one individuals personal opinion of what should be carried because he liked the old S&W autos.
Really
www.thegunzone.com/glock/upgrade-faq.html
www.thegunzone.com/glock/extractors.html
www.thegunzone.com/glock/upgrade-faq3.html
www.thegunzone.com/glock/phase3.html
www.thegunzone.com/glock/phase3a.html
www.thegunzone.com/glock/g19_topless.html
www.thegunzone.com/glock/hhnj.html
I dont know, if I got 20,000+ rounds usage out of a $500 polymer framed pistol I'd probably be quite happy.
Stuff DOES wear out when you use it.
I agree that is a pretty good amount of rounds but that is a strange place for a crack. I'm not suprised S&W replaced it for nothing.
rubberneck
01-07-08, 10:02
It's certainly something us M&P owners need to watch but I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water just yet.
It shouldn't be just for M&P owners. Every time I detail strip anyone of my guns they get a good once over. I even have a jewelers loop to inspect small parts and pins for hairline cracks. It probably adds five minutes to the cleaning time but it is really cheap insurance against the alternative.
One of the great things about competitive shooting is that the good guys like Todd can torture test a gun in a very short time. Most of the top shooters will shoot 50,000+ rounds a year. If a gun design has a flaw they will find it pretty quickly.
Erick Gelhaus
01-07-08, 12:10
Out of curioiusity ... Has S&W specified a factory stated service life (round count wise) for the M&P pistols? If so, what is it?
John_Wayne777
01-07-08, 12:30
Out of curioiusity ... Has S&W specified a factory stated service life (round count wise) for the M&P pistols? If so, what is it?
S&W reps have reported "insane" round counts on eval guns sent to PDs.
I think a slide failure at 20K is going to prove to be the exception rather than the rule.
I noticed another slide failure exactly like this (except a .40) on the MP pistol forums. I wonder if these were early guns? Maybe the way those grooves and notches are machined may have been revised.
Not to stray off topic, but I've seen bad machining and slide failures in Glocks. The local shop I worked at for a time had about 2 dozen guns with improperly machined slides. The little lug on the forward end of the slide that holds the recoil spring had a little notch in it. It was definately a wayward cutter or something because they were exactly the same on all the guns that broke, and all the ones we sent back.
I also saw some one crack a Glock 17 slide right under the ejection port.
I guess the points I'm trying to make are that sometimes little errors in the manufacturing process that go unnoticed can lead to problems. And when you use something hard, it will eventually wear out or break.
As the population of M&Ps increases and some see higher round counts, we will probably see other issues crop up. But I think we should be glad there are early adopters and hard users out there. They find the weaknesses and shortcomings, and usually develop the fixes and work arounds.
S&W reps have reported "insane" round counts on eval guns sent to PDs.
I think a slide failure at 20K is going to prove to be the exception rather than the rule.
To add to that, You can also just replace the slide rails on the frame of the M&P when they are worn out. so you can just keep going and going on that same pistol frame for a VERY long time.
Robb Jensen
01-07-08, 13:24
I'm thinking it's breaking there because the slide is a little weakened there because of the slide stop notch cut in the slide.
That and the slide is likely tilting to the right during firing causing stress on that slide of the slide as it's pulling upward/away from the locking block. I'm sure S&W will do something to make it stronger there like lengthening the rails on the locking block and/or making the slide stop notch smaller from front to back.
Bowie Tactical
01-07-08, 18:01
I do not think the barrel had anything to do with this. I have seen a couple of these slides cracked in the same place.
I have a few M&P's with huge round counts with no trouble. Every gun has a bad exapmle from time to time. God, I mean glock has been around forever and you still see a major flaw every now and then.
I would not let this stop you.
CHECK 360 David
I wish Smith & Wesson would replace his whole gun so they could get ahold of the that gun as a unit. It would be interesting to keep shooting it to see how the crack progresses (if it does at all) and when (if) it ever affects how the gun functions. For all we know, it could go indefinitely as it is and never cause a problem in terms of how it functions.
David Thomas
01-08-08, 00:32
I do not think the barrel had anything to do with this. I have seen a couple of these slides cracked in the same place.... CHECK 360 David
Since you probably have a better understanding of the M&P internals than most, do you have an educated guess as to what did cause the crack? Also I would be curious to hear the respective round counts on the guns with cracked slides that you have seen, if you know the round counts.
Thanks.
Edited to add:
GOTM4, missed your post on the suspected cause the first time. Sounds logical, enough.
The Dumb Gun Collector
01-08-08, 09:22
I agree with David. This whole rush to the latest and greatest (and the corresponding, "oh, that gun is so last week) is silly.
Unless GOD himself makes the weapon, it will break. The simple truth is that if it is made by man, it will break.
We can go over to GT and look at countless threads where Glock's have gone down for all kinds of things. I do not fault Glock for cracked slides as I would not fault S&W. It happens.
I also do not see any bandwagon in regards to S&W M&P. It is a quality weapon and gives shooters another option. If people are happy with their Glocks, then they should keep them. If they are not happy with them (like me), then they should try an M&P.
C4
rubberneck
01-08-08, 10:32
Unless GOD himself makes the weapon, it will break. The simple truth is that if it is made by man, it will break.
C4
True but IMHO there are two types of failures. One is related directly to an inherent flaw in the design, which is the more troubling of the two. It is too early to tell if that is the case here but I suspect we'll know shortly as these guns get more and more rounds down range in larger numbers. The second is a flaw in the material used. That failure happens with anything ever made by man.
True but IMHO there are two types of failures. One is related directly to an inherent flaw in the design, which is the more troubling of the two. It is too early to tell if that is the case here but I suspect we'll know shortly as these guns get more and more rounds down range in larger numbers. The second is a flaw in the material used. That failure happens with anything ever made by man.
If it is a flaw in the design, then Glock is guilty of the same issue (which I don't think they are).
C4
Wayne Dobbs
01-08-08, 13:57
Grant,
I think you're right on track. I've cracked a Glock 17 slide at about 55K rounds that took about six years of service life to accumulate. And if S&W (or Glock) is replacing cracked slides with no problems as both of them do, then it's pretty much a non issue. Try getting an auto manufacturer to replace a major component in comparable use circumstances and see how that works out for you.
Grant,
I think you're right on track. I've cracked a Glock 17 slide at about 55K rounds that took about six years of service life to accumulate. And if S&W (or Glock) is replacing cracked slides with no problems as both of them do, then it's pretty much a non issue. Try getting an auto manufacturer to replace a major component in comparable use circumstances and see how that works out for you.
Agree. What really matters is how the company deals with the issue.
C4
True but IMHO there are two types of failures. One is related directly to an inherent flaw in the design.....The second is a flaw in the material used.
These are the same. The material specified is part of the design.
The way I see it, you can have design flaws and manufacturing flaws. You need to start witha good design, then your production methods, QC standards, etc. ensure your product is consistent with the design.
I agree that the design has to be GTG from the get go, otherwise you'll just make a bunch of defective widgets. The mfg thing though comes and goes. It takes good discipline to ensure quality during manufacturing over the lifetime of a product. Let a bad batch of steel in, don't program the CNC machine correctly, you name it and you've just produced a bad batch. You can correct it later in future batches, but the damage is done by then. Some companies recover, some don't.
BTW, I wouldn't get too wigged out over a slide that lasts 20K rounds. That's not directed at you, just a general statement WRT the topic at hand. I don't think this sample is indicative of a poor design. Time though will tell.
I concur with most statement's about guns breaking, it is up to the shooter to stay on top of the maintenance of the firearm you will trust your LIFE too. if you dont check your gun after you take it to the range and clean it, then shame on you.
Most firearms come with "LIFE TIME WARRANTY" the bad thing is that we dont. even if we can call the company and ask for a new slide we cant ask that if our gun failed when we really needed it and we dont survive to make the phone call.
now if S&W M&P had magazines that were worth a damm, i might consider them almost as good as a glock.
I will wait before i jump in the M&P wagon.
I'm just pissed that this guy can aford to shoot 21.000 rds in a couple of months.....Grr....I'm jealous.
now if S&W M&P had magazines that were worth a damm, i might consider them almost as good as a glock.
3M sells spray on adhesive that you can use to make the S&W mags stick in the gun just like Glock. :D
It was a 9mm. Todd is a great shooter and will shoot the d**shit out of anything.
Robb- Good thing you censored d** as opposed to shit. I hate the word d** but shit doesn't bother me! :p
At 300 rounds through my M&P45, should I slow down a little? ;)
now if S&W M&P had magazines that were worth a damm, i might consider them almost as good as a glock.
What exactly do you see as the problem with them?
Unless GOD himself makes the weapon, it will break. The simple truth is that if it is made by man, it will break.
We can go over to GT and look at countless threads where Glock's have gone down for all kinds of things. I do not fault Glock for cracked slides as I would not fault S&W. It happens.
I also do not see any bandwagon in regards to S&W M&P. It is a quality weapon and gives shooters another option. If people are happy with their Glocks, then they should keep them. If they are not happy with them (like me), then they should try an M&P.
C4
God made "MAN" of which many are broken:D ........The P'sOS need to be shot.....:p
But like you I never liked Glocks and have seen several bite the dust with less than 21K. :mad:
Lots of mechanical things bite the dust regaurdless of cost or engineering or lenght of service....one could start with the space shuttle......;)
rubberneck
01-08-08, 19:10
These are the same. The material specified is part of the design.
No they are not. A piece of steel with a defect in it is not part of the design.
No they are not. A piece of steel with a defect in it is not part of the design.
We are talking semantics. I agree with what you're saying.
Beat Trash
01-08-08, 20:04
Our Department issues the M&P in 9mm (have about 1,100 guns in the field). We received the first 9mm T&E guns to leave the factory.
One of our armors bought two of these T&E guns after the testing was done and uses them in his CCW classes as loaner guns. Both guns are well over the 30K mark, with no parts replaced.
What caused the slide in the original post to crack? We might never know for sure, but I for one do not think there is a problem with the gun or the design.
I have had my issued pistol for about 1.5 years now, with about 7K through it. Haven't been shooting it much for the last 10 months due to health issues. The more I shoot it, the more I like it.
I am not ready to sell off my 9mm Glocks, but I don't know that I'll be buying any more Glocks.
Robb Jensen
01-08-08, 21:52
Robb- Good thing you censored d** as opposed to shit. I hate the word d** but shit doesn't bother me! :p
At 300 rounds through my M&P45, should I slow down a little? ;)
It was my attempt at humor..........some people call me sense of humor 'odd' at times. But I just do what the voices in my head tell me. :D
God made "MAN" of which many are broken:D ........The P'sOS need to be shot.....:p
But like you I never liked Glocks and have seen several bite the dust with less than 21K. :mad:
Lots of mechanical things bite the dust regaurdless of cost or engineering or lenght of service....one could start with the space shuttle......;)
With regard to the first comment- I almost posted the EXACT same thing. Didn't want to stray too far off topic and bring God too far into this...
Robb- yes, that actually was funny!
3M sells spray on adhesive that you can use to make the S&W mags stick in the gun just like Glock. :D
Now that is pretty funny!
C4
Oh wow that brings back memories as it's been around 10years or more since I've had a Glock mag stick in the mag well.:rolleyes:
Or has Glock gone a few steps back in magazine design?
Oh wow that brings back memories as it's been around 10years or more since I've had a Glock mag stick in the mag well.:rolleyes:
Or has Glock gone a few steps back in magazine design?
It really depends on the Glock and the mag as tolerance differ from weapon to weapon and mag to mag. I had GEN III glocks that just didn't like some mags. I think it is somewhat normal.
C4
toddackerman
01-09-08, 16:32
I'm also in the camp of waiting to see what happens over the long haul before making any changes to a system that is working I.e., USGI Mags versus PMAG's, Glock and 1911's versus M&P etc.
I got to hold an M&P for the first time last night (because I'm not interested in buying one), and the ergonomics for my hand were horrible. The Glock fits me better, but the 1911 fits like a glove.
I'm also in the camp of waiting to see what happens over the long haul before making any changes to a system that is working I.e., USGI Mags versus PMAG's, Glock and 1911's versus M&P etc.
I got to hold an M&P for the first time last night (because I'm not interested in buying one), and the ergonomics for my hand were horrible. The Glock fits me better, but the 1911 fits like a glove.
So you like the finger grooves on the Glock?? If so, you might me the only one. :D To be honest, I don't know how anyone can say that the Glock fits them better than the M&P (espeically when they admit that a 1911 fits them like a glove). The M&P sits in your hand a lot like like a 1911 would and you can adjust the grip to match your hand size. Neither 1911's nor Glocks offers this.
C4
toddackerman
01-09-08, 17:11
So you like the finger grooves on the Glock?? If so, you might me the only one. :D To be honest, I don't know how anyone can say that the Glock fits them better than the M&P (espeically when they admit that a 1911 fits them like a glove). The M&P sits in your hand a lot like like a 1911 would and you can adjust the grip to match your hand size. Neither 1911's nor Glocks offers this.
C4
I didn't realize there were different grip options. The one I held was as big around as a 55 Gal. Drum. It also had some sharp edges below the trigger guard that really annoyed me.
The gun that fit me really well was the SA "Plastic Job" which I parted with.
I just think that after 30 years behind a 1911, my Muscle Memory won't change. Hell...I can't even shoot an Isosceles Stance/ Grip with both thumbs pointing forward. Every time I "Go for It" under stress, it all reverts back to "Weaver", right thumb on the safety, and the left thumb on top of the right one.
I'm hopeless....and experts agree! :)
However, my young friend, I have adopted the left thumb forward on the rail("non- Chicken Choke"), Scout Light at 9:00, and I've done away with the VFG on my AR. I love this hold. Same one I use on every long gun.
I'm in the "wait until I can afford to get one that I find in a private transaction" camp right now. :D
I have short fingers. I have hands like a chubby raccon. I can get the lid off of any of the neighbors' garbage cans, but Glocks are too big even with a grip reduction. My 1911s all have short triggers and thin grip panels.
On the other hand, I can actually reach the trigger properly on an M&P, even with the biggest grip insert installed. With the small insert, it feels kind of like it was made for me. The fit is nowhere near as good as a 1911 with a short trigger, but much better than a Glock.
I have short fingers... but Glocks are too big even with a grip reduction. My 1911s all have short triggers and thin grip panels.
All Glock's or just large frame models (e.g., 21, 21SF)?
Patrick Aherne
01-09-08, 20:13
So you like the finger grooves on the Glock?? If so, you might me the only one. :D To be honest, I don't know how anyone can say that the Glock fits them better than the M&P (espeically when they admit that a 1911 fits them like a glove). The M&P sits in your hand a lot like like a 1911 would and you can adjust the grip to match your hand size. Neither 1911's nor Glocks offers this.
C4
In full-screen video, shootback simulators, the Glock suits me just fine. These video scenarios are just training, but they do cause you to dive for cover and call for help on your radio. I have never had a problem getting the hit I needed using the Glock system. Folks I know who use Glocks to shoot badguys have not had a problem in the real world getting hits that stopped fights. The M&P has not proved that, yet. Keep in mind, I am a fan of the M&P and it is on the shortlist to replace my agency's HK USPs in 3-4 years.
I would not be troubled by a 21K rounds service life; brake shoes wear, tires get punctured, vests get old. It costs money to stay current, deal with it.
John_Wayne777
01-09-08, 20:32
Round count: 0
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0490.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0492.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0494.jpg
This is the .45 I recently purchased.
The slide cracked on me as I was attempting to install a Warren rear sight using the MGW sight tool. Everything was proceeding along just fine and then all of a sudden....TINK.....
Round count: 0
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0490.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0492.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0494.jpg
This is the .45 I recently purchased.
The slide cracked on me as I was attempting to install a Warren rear sight using the MGW sight tool. Everything was proceeding along just fine and then all of a sudden....TINK.....
Ouch!:(
Robb Jensen
01-09-08, 20:37
Ouch! :eek:
Dude,
If a rear sight ever takes that much force to move, the best thing is to let is soak in Kroil for a little while and/or put the slide in the freezer. If that doesn't work use a hacksaw and cut a groove down the center of it (side to side) about 3/4 a little more all the way through the sight. Kimber fixed sights almost always have to come of using this method (hacksaw).
Robb
John_Wayne777
01-09-08, 20:49
Ouch! :eek:
Dude,
If a rear sight ever takes that much force to move, the best thing is to let is soak in Kroil for a little while and/or put the slide in the freezer. If that doesn't work use a hacksaw and cut a groove down the center of it (side to side) about 3/4 a little more all the way through the sight. Kimber fixed sights almost always have to come of using this method (hacksaw).
Robb
That's just it....this didn't take any abnormal force. The handle was turning freely and then encountered just a tad of resistance (like you would expect when fitting it into the dovetail) and all of a sudden....TINK....It cracked.
The .45 was the last one I did. The 9C and full-sized 9mm went without a hitch. Removal of the factory rear was similarly without a hitch. It's just when the Warren hit the point of snugging up that the slide gave up the ghost.
Seems like some sort of defect in the slide to me....I don't think of myself as a weakling, but neither am I the sort of guy who can muscle a hunk of steel into snapping with just hand power. Maybe I should be included in that 2 bowling balls classification too....
Robb Jensen
01-09-08, 21:01
That's just it....this didn't take any abnormal force. The handle was turning freely and then encountered just a tad of resistance (like you would expect when fitting it into the dovetail) and all of a sudden....TINK....It cracked.
The .45 was the last one I did. The 9C and full-sized 9mm went without a hitch. Removal of the factory rear was similarly without a hitch. It's just when the Warren hit the point of snugging up that the slide gave up the ghost.
Seems like some sort of defect in the slide to me....I don't think of myself as a weakling, but neither am I the sort of guy who can muscle a hunk of steel into snapping with just hand power. Maybe I should be included in that 2 bowling balls classification too....
Gotcha. I was thinking it broke removing the old sight. The Warrens do fit pretty snug in the dovetails (front and rear). I lube up the sights and slide with Militec-1 prior to installing the new sights and use a triangular fit to remove a little metal if required. It's just of those 'feel' things that comes with time knowing how much to remove. S&W will take care of you I'm sure.
Just call customer service at S&W 1-800-331-0852 Mon-Fri 8:00AM-8:00PM EST.
John_Wayne777
01-09-08, 21:09
Gotcha. I was thinking it broke removing the old sight. The Warrens do fit pretty snug in the dovetails (front and rear). I lube up the sights and slide with Militec-1 prior to installing the new sights and use a triangular fit to remove a little metal if required. It's just of those 'feel' things that comes with time knowing how much to remove. S&W will take care of you I'm sure.
Just call customer service at S&W 1-800-331-0852 Mon-Fri 8:00AM-8:00PM EST.
I lube the piss out of the rear when installing too. From the way it felt it has to be a manufacturing defect. I made the factory sights move with a couple of good whacks from a rubber headed hammer and then used the MGW tool to finish removal. Then I tapped the new Warren in just enough to hold in the spring plate that sits under the sight before putting the slide back in the MGW tool. The tool was turning with the same level of force (no more than what I've used on other pistols like Glocks) I used to install the sights on my full sized 9 and then all of a sudden I felt an odd shift and blammo....busted slide.
See, this is why I don't gamble. Some people have luck. Other people have night sights that poop the bed on them and slides that crack for no apparent reason.
Heavy Metal
01-09-08, 21:13
I would wager bad heat treat.
I just spoke to a member here on the board and out of 800+ G17s and thousands of magazines in his department he hasn't seen or heard of any Gen III mags hanging up. He also runs the departments pistol team and is an instructor at Blackwater, that use the G17s extensively. I have 40+ Gen three G17 mags and I just tried them in two different G17s and not a single one hung up.
The original Gen I mags were designed not to drop. They were designed that way (its not a flawed design, it was a requirement) because in the late 70s and early 80s that is what the Austrian Army wanted. Europeans thought it was a waste and bad form to drop a magazine. So the original mags were designed that way.
It wasn't until the competitive shooters here in the USA started running Glocks did they change the design to full metal where they would drop free.
John_Wayne777
01-09-08, 21:18
I would wager bad heat treat.
That's what I was thinking.
Any way to get a pic of the rear of the slide looking forward?
Idea being to see how thick the metal is in that area (especially around the slide rail groove). If it's thinner than the other side, or compared to other examples it could point out a problem with the machining. Otherwise, bad heat treat is a good possibility, but only a hardness test or microscopic grain analysis could tell that.
John_Wayne777
01-09-08, 21:33
Any way to get a pic of the rear of the slide looking forward?
Idea being to see how thick the metal is in that area (especially around the slide rail groove). If it's thinner than the other side, or compared to other examples it could point out a problem with the machining. Otherwise, bad heat treat is a good possibility, but only a hardness test or microscopic grain analysis could tell that.
It did indeed happen at the narrowest part of the slide, right in the grove where the frame rails ride. Just looking it doesn't appear that the area on the .45 is any different than the area on the 9mm versions. I tried getting a good rear pic but my camera isn't cooperating.
It did indeed happen at the narrowest part of the slide, right in the grove where the frame rails ride. Just looking it doesn't appear that the area on the .45 is any different than the area on the 9mm versions. I tried getting a good rear pic but my camera isn't cooperating.
That would probably rule out a machining problem then.
All Glock's or just large frame models (e.g., 21, 21SF)?
All of 'em. I have a G17 that's had the grip reduced as far as possible, and I still have to crank my hand around too far to reach the trigger. I can shoot it, but having not much more than my thumb on the backstrap isn't a good thing. I doubt if the linear distance between the backstrap and trigger is much different with the M&P, but the shape is different enough that my hand just seems to work better there.
What is your serial prefix?
All of 'em. I have a G17 that's had the grip reduced as far as possible, and I still have to crank my hand around too far to reach the trigger. I can shoot it, but having not much more than my thumb on the backstrap isn't a good thing. I doubt if the linear distance between the backstrap and trigger is much different with the M&P, but the shape is different enough that my hand just seems to work better there.
You need to post a pic of your hand. I gotta see this!:p
Just funnin ya. Ergonomics are different for every person, and it doesn't matter how popular a gadget is, if it doesn't work keep looking for something else that does.
John_Wayne777
01-10-08, 08:00
What is your serial prefix?
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/45close.jpg
JW, you have some serious muscles to do that! :D
C4
Robb- Good thing you censored d** as opposed to shit. I hate the word d** but shit doesn't bother me! :p
At 300 rounds through my M&P45, should I slow down a little? ;)
that's funny :p :D
What exactly do you see as the problem with them?
there have been competitions that i have been to that shooters have drop there mag's in the mud and had too completely take apart their mag and clean then or they wouldnt feed consistently. also if you drop them the rounds can come out flying or flipping back wards inside the mag. there are people that should become S&W salesman in this thread. understand that not all the guns will fit every body, but tham they can sure nock on the one they cant shoot with.
John_Wayne777
01-10-08, 09:29
JW, you have some serious muscles to do that! :D
I realize now that I took entirely the wrong approach. Instead of "holy crap, look how easily that broke!" I should have said "So there I was pushing in the new rear sight with my thumb and look what happened to the slide!! With mah bar' hands!!"
So you like the finger grooves on the Glock?? If so, you might me the only one. :D To be honest, I don't know how anyone can say that the Glock fits them better than the M&P (espeically when they admit that a 1911 fits them like a glove). The M&P sits in your hand a lot like like a 1911 would and you can adjust the grip to match your hand size. Neither 1911's nor Glocks offers this.
C4
Count me in also, as someone who thinks the Glock fits MY hand better then the M&P.;)
there have been competitions that i have been to that shooters have drop there mag's in the mud and had too completely take apart their mag and clean then or they wouldnt feed consistently. also if you drop them the rounds can come out flying or flipping back wards inside the mag. there are people that should become S&W salesman in this thread. understand that not all the guns will fit every body, but tham they can sure nock on the one they cant shoot with.
How is that even possible?
New S&W slogan: "We make the happiest guns on earth...your ammunition will do back flips for joy!" :D
there have been competitions that i have been to that shooters have drop there mag's in the mud and had too completely take apart their mag and clean then or they wouldnt feed consistently. also if you drop them the rounds can come out flying or flipping back wards inside the mag. there are people that should become S&W salesman in this thread. understand that not all the guns will fit every body, but tham they can sure nock on the one they cant shoot with.
Interesting. I havent experienced that with mine in the couple of classes I have done with them. No mud, but they did get pretty sandy/gritty inside.
Robb Jensen
01-10-08, 10:20
How is that even possible?
New S&W slogan: "We make the happiest guns on earth...your ammunition will do back flips for joy!" :D
Mine do it quite regularly at USPSA matches.
Mine do it quite regularly at USPSA matches.
The rounds in your magazines flip backwards when the magazine is dropped?
there have been competitions that i have been to that shooters have drop there mag's in the mud and had too completely take apart their mag and clean then or they wouldnt feed consistently. also if you drop them the rounds can come out flying or flipping back wards inside the mag. there are people that should become S&W salesman in this thread. understand that not all the guns will fit every body, but tham they can sure nock on the one they cant shoot with.
Oddly enough, any magazine I drop into MUD is considered compromised until its disassembled and cleaned.
I REALLY want to see this rounds flipping backwards thing in person.
You need to post a pic of your hand. I gotta see this!:p
Just funnin ya. Ergonomics are different for every person, and it doesn't matter how popular a gadget is, if it doesn't work keep looking for something else that does.
Come to a USPSA, 3-gun, steel, or NRA Action Pistol match in Indiana and I'll show ya!
You're right, though ... in my case, what makes the real difference is that in addition to the short fingers, I have a lot of "meat" in my palm, especially when my hand flexes to wrap my thumb around the grip. That pushes the gun farther forward in my hand, making it tough for me to reach the trigger.
there have been competitions that i have been to that shooters have drop there mag's in the mud and had too completely take apart their mag and clean then or they wouldnt feed consistently. also if you drop them the rounds can come out flying or flipping back wards inside the mag. there are people that should become S&W salesman in this thread. understand that not all the guns will fit every body, but tham they can sure nock on the one they cant shoot with.
I think you generally need to clean any mag that falls into MUD before inserting it into the weapon.
You are right. Not all guns will fit everyone. The simple reason for that is that we all have different hand sizes. The M&P offers the end user the ability to change out the back straps to fit the shooter. Glock doesn't offer this. This is why the chances of an M&P fitting a shooter is much better than that of say a Glock. ;)
We already are a S&W LE dealer, but thanks for the advice! :D
C4
I think you generally need to clean any mag that falls into MUD before inserting it into the weapon.
You are right. Not all guns will fit everyone. The simple reason for that is that we all have different hand sizes. The M&P offers the end user the ability to change out the back straps to fit the shooter. Glock doesn't offer this YET. This is why the chances of an M&P fitting a shooter is much better than that of say a Glock. ;)
We already are a S&W LE dealer, but thanks for the advice! :D
C4
Fixed it for you(You never know what Glock has up their sleeve)..BUT im not holding my breath.:D ;) :(.Maybe they will come out with that carbine this year too. :);)
Robb Jensen
01-10-08, 21:53
I think with stronger mag springs the M&P won't have the top round flip around or become vertical in the magazine when dropped. This never happens with me when using Glocks at matches. M&P9s? about 50% of the time when dropping a mag with some rounds still in it on a hard surface.
Oddly enough, any magazine I drop into MUD is considered compromised until its disassembled and cleaned.
I REALLY want to see this rounds flipping backwards thing in person.
i agree, you should always clean your mags after you use them in those kind if conditions.
In the middle of a big match a would rather just find a good puddle of water and get the excess mud off my glock magazines and not have to worry about whether they are going to feed or not.
i have seen more than one opportunity when the magazines have created problems for the shooters, want the most reliable gun in the market for my carry piece and for me it is still the Glock 19 hands down. but once again that is mu humble opinion, that is why the m&p is so familiar to the glock internally. glock still sets the bar for polymer handguns.
Robb Jensen
01-11-08, 07:28
Looey and I shot the VA/MD Sectional last year in the pouring rain (about 7hrs in the rain, it sucked ass). We both used Glock 17s. It was miserable but we finished and it was probably one of our worst matches for the each of us Looey was 13th and I was 18th out of 56 shooters. The guns ran 100%. We would just flush our mags out in large puddles or with the water for drinking. I never take apart and clean my Glock mags at matches, actually I usually only do that once a year at home or at work. With my M&P and STI If they hit the ground near sand/dirt I take them apart to clean right then and there. I've had rounds get stuck down in the mag and not feed when I didn't clean them after just a few drops in dirt with both the M&P and STI.
Even though they're on their 3rd or 4th generation I think the Glock mags are a better design.
I also don't like it that you can't do a lot of dryfire without a snap cap in a M&P. A little here and there is fine, a lot and you WILL break a striker, it's just a matter of when. Since I've started using a snap cap I haven't broken a striker.
For my Glocks I now just change all of the springs every 5K rounds sometimes even sooner. These include recoil, firing pin safety, trigger, striker, slide lock, extractor and the entire slide catch. Mag springs really should be replaced at the same intervals as recoil springs, but I have about 30 Glock 17 mags (so this wouldn't prudent cost wise) I replace all my Glock 17 mag springs every 2-3 yrs (I use Wolff +10% mag springs). When I started doing this about a year and a half ago I haven't broken any springs.
Back to the S&W slide. It's made out of 410 stainless. I'm wondering if this is too brittle?
I also don't like it that you can't do a lot of dryfire without a snap cap in a M&P. A little here and there is fine, a lot and you WILL break a striker, it's just a matter of when. Since I've started using a snap cap I haven't broken a striker.
For what its worth, my contact at S&W has told me that the revision to the strikers they made some time back solved this issue. All of mine have the 2nd gen striker, and I have done a LOT of dry firing with mine with no snap caps, and havent had any issues.
Robb Jensen
01-11-08, 08:00
For what its worth, my contact at S&W has told me that the revision to the strikers they made some time back solved this issue. All of mine have the 2nd gen striker, and I have done a LOT of dry firing with mine with no snap caps, and havent had any issues.
I've seen 3 broken 'gen 2' strikers in the last 30 days. YMMV. ;)
I have an email in to him, with a link to this thread.
Fixed it for you(You never know what Glock has up their sleeve)..BUT im not holding my breath.:D ;) :(.Maybe they will come out with that carbine this year too. :);)
A carbine, yeah sure. :D
C4
A carbine, yeah sure. :D
C4
;) :D
I've seen 3 broken 'gen 2' strikers in the last 30 days. YMMV. ;)
:eek: Well that sucks, i guess i will have to buy some snap caps now.:(
crowkiller
01-11-08, 09:46
Back to the S&W slide. It's made out of 410 stainless. I'm wondering if this is too brittle?
Ive been wondering the same thing. I throw a few thoughts out here
Seeing that the cracks are by the slide rails goove were there is less material it could be a flaw in the actual steel, improper hardening, bad choice in SS or maybe the Melonite treatment.
Flaw in the steel- Maybe there was a bad spot form when the steel used for the slide was made. Does Smith use forged slides or stock removal?
Hardening- Maybe the slide got harder in this area due to it being thinner. Maybe the overall hardness was too brittle. Usually when you quench steel you draw it back to the desired hardness. I wonder if Smith hardens the slide before or after they do the machining? And what process they use?
Bad SS choice- Some steel is definitely better suited than others for different tasks.
Melonite- I may be wrong but it is my understanding that this is similar to Tenifer and they both use chemical bath to achieve an extremely hard surface. Then maybe the thin section of the slide would get too brittle from this treatment. Could some explain how Melonite works?
I have no clue what process Smith uses to make the slide but somewhere along the line this section either had a bad spot or got too brittle. Maybe even before they received the steel.
John_Wayne777
01-11-08, 10:28
Just got off the phone with S&W about the cracked slide. They told me to send it in....but also said there's a possibility they'd make me pay for a replacement slide.
That's a non-starter. I wasn't bubba-rigging this sight or doing anything abnormal....
We'll have to see how it goes.
Just got off the phone with S&W about the cracked slide. They told me to send it in....but also said there's a possibility they'd make me pay for a replacement slide.
That's a non-starter.
We'll have to see how it goes.
Thats BS right there. Did they give you an explanation as to WHY??
John_Wayne777
01-11-08, 10:40
Thats BS right there. Did they give you an explanation as to WHY??
If a "non S&W person" did something "dumb" to the slide, it causes breakage, apparently that might not be considered in warranty. (Quotes are from the person I talked to)
The rep told me that they install the sights with a hydraulic ram and that they only go in one way....all information I already knew. I also know that they go in one way and managed to successfully replace THREE rear sights on M&P handguns without issue.
This leads me to wonder if this is a common issue with the M&Ps. Replacement of sights shouldn't be this big of a deal. If somebody can bust a slide just using the pressure you can generate with an MGW sight tool as a regular event, that's a problem.
Odds are S&W won't make me pay for the slide. If they do, however, I'll buy a new slide for the .45 and sell my M&P's off. Generally S&W's customer service is good...but I'm really not in the mood to get messed with on this one. Hopefully they'll calculate that even if they believe this was my fault (and it wasn't) that it would be stupid to piss off a customer who has literally a dozen of their handguns and who had plans to buy many more in the future....
If a "non S&W person" did something "dumb" to the slide, it causes breakage, apparently that might not be considered in warranty. (Quotes are from the person I talked to)
The rep told me that they install the sights with a hydraulic ram and that they only go in one way....all information I already knew. I also know that they go in one way and managed to successfully replace THREE rear sights on M&P handguns without issue.
This leads me to wonder if this is a common issue with the M&Ps. Replacement of sights shouldn't be this big of a deal. If somebody can bust a slide just using the pressure you can generate with an MGW sight tool as a regular event, that's a problem.
Odds are S&W won't make me pay for the slide. If they do, however, I'll buy a new slide for the .45 and sell my M&P's off. Generally S&W's customer service is good...but I'm really not in the mood to get messed with on this one. Hopefully they'll calculate that even if they believe this was my fault (and it wasn't) that it would be stupid to piss off a customer who has literally a dozen of their handguns and who had plans to buy many more in the future....
Its about to make me wonder as well. And if that does happen to you.... I'll be right behind you.
If a "non S&W person" did something "dumb" to the slide, it causes breakage, apparently that might not be considered in warranty. (Quotes are from the person I talked to)
Its not unreasonable. I bet they see some really crazy customer induced damage.
John_Wayne777
01-11-08, 11:30
Its not unreasonable. I bet they see some really crazy customer induced damage.
I'm sure they do....and hopefully this was a warning given out of an abundance of caution by the person I talked to as a means of managing expectations. I've done the customer service thing. I know how that goes. You promise little up front but work hard to give the best result possible behind the scenes...that way you don't end up with someone mad at you because you made a promise you can't deliver on.
I'll send in the pistol and see what happens. I don't think S&W's going to decide to screw me over on this one because that's generally not been their style when I've dealt with them in the past.
Hopefully they don't decide that now is the time to try my patience. I really don't have any at this point.
I'm sure they do....and hopefully this was a warning given out of an abundance of caution by the person I talked to as a means of managing expectations. I've done the customer service thing. I know how that goes. You promise little up front but work hard to give the best result possible behind the scenes...that way you don't end up with someone mad at you because you made a promise you can't deliver on.
I'll send in the pistol and see what happens. I don't think S&W's going to decide to screw me over on this one because that's generally not been their style when I've dealt with them in the past.
Hopefully they don't decide that now is the time to try my patience. I really don't have any at this point.
I hope it works out for you.:)
Just got off the phone with S&W about the cracked slide. They told me to send it in....but also said there's a possibility they'd make me pay for a replacement slide.
That's a non-starter. I wasn't bubba-rigging this sight or doing anything abnormal....
We'll have to see how it goes.
They most likely want to make sure that you didn't do something crazy with the slide (like use a jack hammer to install the sight). If you did, then they would of course charge you for a new one (as would I).
If you run into any issues, let me know if I can help.
C4
John_Wayne777
01-11-08, 14:09
They most likely want to make sure that you didn't do something crazy with the slide (like use a jack hammer to install the sight). If you did, then they would of course charge you for a new one (as would I).
That's what I expect the warning was about. Over the phone the tech can't tell if I really did use an MGW sight tool or if the slide looks like it has been beat to hell with a 20 pound sledge and an anvil. Long long ago in a land far far away I sold auto parts. If you think people do dumb stuff with guns, you should see what they do to cars.
If you run into any issues, let me know if I can help.
I appreciate the offer. I know that there are enough guys on here who have the ear of S&W reps that *should* I encounter any issues they will probably be resolved in a satisfactory manner.
John_Wayne777
01-11-08, 14:14
I hope it works out for you.:)
Somehow when I'm involved nothing is ever as simple as it seems.
Just ask NCPatrolAR about that. :D
Wayne Dobbs
01-11-08, 17:16
JW 77,
Does MGW make a sight pusher for the M&P now or were you using one of their other tools (such as for a Glock)? I just checked Brownell's and didn't see a pusher for the M&P.
Wayne
JW 77,
Does MGW make a sight pusher for the M&P now or were you using one of their other tools (such as for a Glock)? I just checked Brownell's and didn't see a pusher for the M&P.
Wayne
There are no pushers for the M&P's yet, but S&W is evaluating some right now and they will be available for sale by the end of the month.
C4
I attempted to use a sight pusher for a Glock and it was very obvious it was the wrong tool for the job. The guy who owned the tool used it on his M&P and while it didn't break the slide it left gouges in the finish. I don't know what brand the tool was.
I used a padded machine vice and a brass drift. The slide was secured just under the sight cut to support the top of the slide and to avoid pinching the bottom where the rails are. Based on how tight the sight was I would not feel comfortable using a tool that would secure to the bottom of the slide.
John_Wayne777
01-11-08, 17:54
Does MGW make a sight pusher for the M&P now or were you using one of their other tools (such as for a Glock)?
I was using the Glock tool. If you remove the endcap on the back of the slide the Glock tool works perfectly.
Robb Jensen
01-11-08, 22:01
I use the MGW Glock sight tool and remove the slide cover plate and striker assy on the S&W and use the tool 180 degrees differently than on a Glock slide.
John_Wayne777
01-11-08, 22:42
I use the MGW Glock sight tool and remove the slide cover plate and striker assy on the S&W and use the tool 180 degrees differently than on a Glock slide.
Exactly what I do.
Robb Jensen
01-13-08, 15:48
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/CMPshooter/MANDP.jpg
Here's a pic of my wifes M&P9. I put on arrow on the 90 degree cut of the slide track/rail. I believe this 90 degree cut to be a weak spot. I also wonder if say after 10-15K rounds maybe the front locking block (which has the front integral frame rails) should be replaced as a PM item?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/MPslide.jpg
What slide is in that top pic?
RAM Engineer
01-13-08, 17:14
That's the one Dave Pennington posted in the thread opener.
Time for me to go get a cup of coffee and take a Voltaren..... :(
I'd be interested in looking into the finish they use to see if the process somehow affects the metalurgy of the slide. They look like they are brittle.
I don’t think I can ever remember ONE gun generating this much conjecture & controversy.
- Maybe I’m just tired from having to work.
Robb Jensen
01-13-08, 19:11
People always talk about hot women & wonder how they'll drive.......
Never judge a book by it's cover! ;)
As far as I know, Tenifer and Melonite is a metal conditioning process that hardens the outer 'layers' of the metal while leaving the inner 'core' relatively ductile. This allows excellent durability and hardness, without reducing fracture toughness.
It's possible that the material in that area of the slide was hardened too deeply (by failure of process or by failure of design) and a crack formed in the hard outer portion of the steel and propagated through the thin cross section of metal.
That's speculation on my part of course.
Steelshooter
01-13-08, 20:44
I have four M&P's, two .45, a .40 and just picked up a 9mm. love them and have had no issues. i did wait until they had been out awhile before buying. The MPV series 9 I just bought is really excellent. Great out of the box trigger, really good fit and with a nice deep dark even finish. I dry fire an awful lot so the striker issue concerns me especially if it has not been really fixed.
My guess is that this defect is a atypical and is a result of a quality control error that occurs in all man-made systems. Over the years, I've seen cracks in almost all firearms commonly available. I predict that Smith will keep such to a very small number.
Williejc
I really cant help but think that for now, these are just isolated incidents and not a sign of a bigger problem. Only time will tell though.
A few thoughts for my first post:
The owner of the gun that is pictured in the opening post must be a great guy; we should all donate money to his favorite charity.
While I appreciate the sentiment some people put forth about "waiting for a gun to be out a while before I trust it," your thought process is misguided. While you wait five years for the M&P to become seasoned, Glock, SIG, Beretta, and HK are all making changes to their guns (materials, dimensional specifications, subvendors, quality control processes, etc.) that you don't even know about. People see a problem with an M&P and they immediately think, "It's that new car smell ... and I don't like it." See a problem with a Glock and they blame something else. But in both cases, it was either a design, material, or QC problem.
The crack occurred during a shooting session but never caused the gun to malfunction or lose accuracy in a noticeable way. It was still working and, I bet, would continue to work for hundreds more rounds. So while it's an ugly breakage, it was not a catastrophic, life-threatening event. Compare this with, say, a Glock takedown lever spring breaking and shutting the whole gun down completely ... a problem that happened to Glocks for more than a decade before they addressed.
Though there have been very few cracked M&P slides, most of them have occurred either in the same place as the one pictured in the first post, or they've been the result of people using sight pushers. There is a reason Smith still hasn't released a sight pusher for their gun after two years. They've broken a lot of slides testing different designs.
As few broken slides they've seen occur "in the wild," Smith has already made a design change to the slide to alleviate (or hopefully eliminate) the problem.
Sadly, the industry standard for major component life is 20,000 rounds. While most guns will go longer, 20k is considered an acceptable point at which parts failure is attributed to wear rather than defect.
Someone posted a hope that Smith would get the whole gun back to see what 21k rounds in three months did to the gun overall ... I believe that is exactly what is going to happen; the whole pistol is being replaced.
Sadly, the industry standard for major component life is 20,000 rounds. While most guns will go longer, 20k is considered an acceptable point at which parts failure is attributed to wear rather than defect.
Someone posted a hope that Smith would get the whole gun back to see what 21k rounds in three months did to the gun overall ... I believe that is exactly what is going to happen; the whole pistol is being replaced.
1. The hell. If that's the case, I guess I need to readdress my strategy of buying and selling stuff.
2. Glad to hear it's official that you'll be getting a new gun. Hopefully no one asks about the idiot who put a mark on your newish front sight.
Good to meet you (again) yesterday. I enjoyed our discussions thoroughly.
Thanks!
One more comment, regarding dry-firing.
With the possible exception of Glock, no company recommends or approves of "excessive" dry-firing a centerfire pistol. All handguns (including Glocks) are subject to a variety of problems if you dry-fire them too much.
The most common damage is caused to the firing pin block; the firing pin moves farther forward than it should (because there is no primer to stop its forward motion) and causes wear. This can lead to shavings in the firing pin/striker channel (which result in light primer hits) and, eventually, raising a bur on the block which results in the gun not firing.
It's also possible to get "bounce" of the firing pin (Glocks seem immune to this due to their unique shape), which can raise a bur either on the tip of the firing pin/striker or in the breechface cut for the pin/striker.
Other guns have unique issues. For example, dry-firing a SIG too much can put undue stress on the firing pin retaining pin, resulting in a cracked pin and possibly a gun that cannot fire.
Mark? I don't see a mark. No marks here. Move along, nothing to see ... (and thanks again for fixing the windage!)
Please don't misunderstand my point about service life. I've seen (and even shot) many guns well past 20k rounds. But at a certain point, it becomes acceptable for some percentage of guns to fail. Most LE and military testing only goes to 10k or 20k. While the folks at M4Carbine.net may be exceptions, the typical person is never going to get close to 20k rounds.
Personally, I don't believe every pre-improved M&P that hits 20k will have this problem. But, I'm not an engineer or a gunsmith. Even if 20k is the service life of the older slides, such a tiny percentage of people will ever reach that point that it's much more economical for Smith simply to replace them as they need to. But it's much more likely that my Smith was an anomaly, just as others have seen Glocks, etc. crack their slides on occasion.
If you're really bored and care about my opinion about the state of the handgun industry in general, you can read this article (http://pistol-training.com/archives/103).
Other guns have unique issues. For example, dry-firing a SIG too much can put undue stress on the firing pin retaining pin, resulting in a cracked pin and possibly a gun that cannot fire.
That is exactly what happened to my SIG. I used to dry fire practice all the time. I carried it for over a month between range sessions. Imagine my surprise when it wouldn't fire. Glad I didn't really have to use it.
I'm sure Smith will figure this out. I'm actually surprised at how few problems there are with the M&Ps. For an entirely new gun, it seems very well thought out. And when there are issues, Smith seems to address them quickly. This is in stark contrast to other manufacturers (I'm looking at you Gaston).
A few thoughts for my first post:
The owner of the gun that is pictured in the opening post must be a great guy; we should all donate money to his favorite charity.
While I appreciate the sentiment some people put forth about "waiting for a gun to be out a while before I trust it," your thought process is misguided. While you wait five years for the M&P to become seasoned, Glock, SIG, Beretta, and HK are all making changes to their guns (materials, dimensional specifications, subvendors, quality control processes, etc.) that you don't even know about. People see a problem with an M&P and they immediately think, "It's that new car smell ... and I don't like it." See a problem with a Glock and they blame something else. But in both cases, it was either a design, material, or QC problem.
The crack occurred during a shooting session but never caused the gun to malfunction or lose accuracy in a noticeable way. It was still working and, I bet, would continue to work for hundreds more rounds. So while it's an ugly breakage, it was not a catastrophic, life-threatening event. Compare this with, say, a Glock takedown lever spring breaking and shutting the whole gun down completely ... a problem that happened to Glocks for more than a decade before they addressed.
Though there have been very few cracked M&P slides, most of them have occurred either in the same place as the one pictured in the first post, or they've been the result of people using sight pushers. There is a reason Smith still hasn't released a sight pusher for their gun after two years. They've broken a lot of slides testing different designs.
As few broken slides they've seen occur "in the wild," Smith has already made a design change to the slide to alleviate (or hopefully eliminate) the problem.
Sadly, the industry standard for major component life is 20,000 rounds. While most guns will go longer, 20k is considered an acceptable point at which parts failure is attributed to wear rather than defect.
Someone posted a hope that Smith would get the whole gun back to see what 21k rounds in three months did to the gun overall ... I believe that is exactly what is going to happen; the whole pistol is being replaced.
Good post and read your article. I do no doubt on any of it. IMHO, companies like Glock tend to fix one problem, but create a new one as they try and find a cheaper way to do things. :mad:
One of the things I like as a S&W LE Dealer, is that the guns get shot (a lot). I have even had a customer accuse me of selling used M&P's because of how dirty the weapon was. :rolleyes:
S&W has found a sight pusher that they like and it will be available by the end of this month.
C4
I like the new guy. He makes sense like my brother Lumpy does. :cool:
Marc, slide over and let the guy have a seat and stay a while.
I like the new guy. He makes sense like my brother Lumpy does. :cool:
Marc, slide over and let the guy have a seat and stay a while.
Hey, I'm just glad he signed on here at M4C. He will be an asset to this site.
Jay Cunningham
01-14-08, 20:02
I must have dry-fired my M&P45 close to 2,000 times by now.
Hey, at least the trigger smoothed out!
A few thoughts for my first post:
While I appreciate the sentiment some people put forth about "waiting for a gun to be out a while before I trust it," your thought process is misguided. While you wait five years for the M&P to become seasoned, Glock, SIG, Beretta, and HK are all making changes to their guns (materials, dimensional specifications, subvendors, quality control processes, etc.) that you don't even know about. People see a problem with an M&P and they immediately think, "It's that new car smell ... and I don't like it." See a problem with a Glock and they blame something else. But in both cases, it was either a design, material, or QC problem.
Thanks for posting, Todd, and welcome. Good to see you here.
I agree with the bulk of your list, but less so the above. I count myself as one disinclined to be a guinea pig (beyond T&E, beta testing, etc) with new designs.
It's true that manufacturers make tweaks to a design throughout it's existence. Most are undisclosed by the manufacturer and unknown by the consumer (until performance anomaly). However, they tend to be less frequent, less substantial in form, and less dramatic in effect than those made to a new offering early in its life.
This is by necessity, of course, as an issues early in a design life must be corrected quickly, else sales and reputation suffer.
An established design is indeed "seasoned", and will bear an anomalous result of a tweak to material, dims, process, or QC much better.
It's that seasoning that makes the existing design more worthy of trust, than the newcomer.
I'm glad for new and innovating things, and the refinement of the existing. I just marvel at the willingness some have to sign on to some so early, and the things at stake when they do.
(No reference to, or swipe at, a specific brand or model expressed or implied.)
However, they tend to be less frequent, less substantial in form, and less dramatic in effect than those made to a new offering early in its life.
My experience says otherwise. Without naming companies, I've personally witnessed, been involved in, or suffered from all of the following on guns that had been on the market at least five years:
Company changes its rear sight notch dimensions to accommodate new vendor. However, some old-dimension sights are still in inventory, which get installed on some guns. Result: rear sights falling off the gun within the first few magazines of shooting.
Company decides, for cost savings, to change the material on its trigger bar from carbon steel to stainless. However, they don't do adequate testing and their heat-treat process is flawed. Result: trigger bar which are too soft and quickly wear out, leaving the shooter with a 20# trigger pull if he's lucky, and a gun that won't fire if he's not.
Company decides, purely for cost savings, to change vendors for a recoil spring. Recoil spring is not adequately tested, however, and has a tendency to induce various malfunctions. It takes over a year of customer complaints for the company to admit the problem and start using a different recoil spring. Major LE customers are informed and offered free replacement springs, but the average consumer is never told. Result: a recoil spring which may fail much earlier than expected causing various stoppages.
Company uses an inexpensive process to plate a critical internal part against corrosion. Some of these parts flake, causing bits of the plating material to lodge themselves into critical areas of the gun. Result: light primer hits and guns that don't go off.
Company, for cost savings purposes, decides to change from an established European supplier to a much less expensive one for barrel production. The new barrels are not made of the same steel, formed the same way, rifled the same way, etc. Customers are not told of this change. Result: you have a brand new barrel design in your "seasoned" 20-year-old gun design.
Company is well aware that its pistols have an unacceptable tendency to fire out of battery, but rather than address the problem they instead let marketing and sales deal with it by blaming the shooter and/or ammo every time. (gee, wonder what company that is!)
I could go on almost forever with this stuff. The fact is, a "new" gun like the M&P has no more problems in a 2-year period than an established gun typically does. As others have pointed out, if this had been a G19 that cracked a slide the result would simply have been, "Huh, that's weird ... that almost never happens." But because it happened on the M&P, people instead assume it's some kind of major inherent design flaw.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not giving the M&P (or Smith) a pass on this. I'm annoyed it happened, and I've made that very clear directly to some key people at the company. I expect I'll bend an ear or two at SHOT, as well.
But it's not the first cracked slide I've seen, nor is it the first gun (new or "established") that I've managed to break just be shooting it a little bit. :cool:
Guns break. Sometimes it's from abuse. Sometimes it's from wear and tear. Sometimes it's a material or design defect. Sometimes it's due to poor QC. But whatever makes it happens, they break. Life is hard.
John_Wayne777
01-16-08, 13:54
My pistol arrived at Smith & Wesson this morning. We'll see what they say.
Probably not what you want to hear, and I hope they replace it at no charge but if they do, it's outstanding customer service. Someone cracks a slide using an unauthorized tool to install sights (were they factory sights? if not, another strike) ... most companies would point the finger right back at the owner. While I'm sure you know what you're doing, as a company they can't assume that every dude with a "sight tool" can be trusted in the wild.
Did the company that made the sight tool specifically say it was designed for the M&P? If so, have you contacted them?
Probably not what you want to hear, and I hope they replace it at no charge but if they do, it's outstanding customer service. Someone cracks a slide using an unauthorized tool to install sights (were they factory sights? if not, another strike) ... most companies would point the finger right back at the owner. While I'm sure you know what you're doing, as a company they can't assume that every dude with a "sight tool" can be trusted in the wild.
Did the company that made the sight tool specifically say it was designed for the M&P? If so, have you contacted them?
The great thing about that "street" is that is goes in two directions. While S&W may be 100% right to disallow a warranty claim for that sort of thing, it probably isn't the best move when they are marketing these pistols to police, as well as competitors.
Where am I going? Well...
Let's say that S&W rightfully rejects the claim, and sticks JW777 with a bill for a new slide. That effects only one customer in theory. In reality it effects lots of existing customers, and potential customers.
Does S&W produce a sight tool to install their sights? If not, who precisely is autorized to do this very low level operation? If only S&W certified armorers are allowed to change sights, without voiding a warranty, people who like to change out their own sights will simply skip to the next pistol that allows them to do this without trying to hold them liable for what looks like a freak occurence, or possibly defective metal.
So, while I agree that S&W has the latitude to void their warranty for a variety of reasons, I believe that if they do that, even in one case, with what could be a HUGELY succesful pistol, they will cut off their noses to spite their face.
Word will spread like wildfire that S&W will void your warranty for doing anything to the pistol, even simple things like changing the sights.
It will be a buzzkill for sure. Many people will use that as a solid basis for which to keep going with their Glock, Sig, etc...
Right or wrong, it looks like a real loser if S&W decides to deny this warranty claim.
I've had sights changed by a Smith rep. He uses a vice and a hammer. Why? They've found that the sight pushers on the market aren't designed well for the M&P and crack the slides. Grant says a new Smith-approved sight pusher is on the way, which is great news (and very past due IMHO).
While I understand what you're saying, the fact is that a very small fraction of one percent of gun owners change their own sights. The rest either buy the gun with the sights they want, don't care one way or the other, or pay a "gunsmith" to swap them. Voiding the warranty for having a non-trained person work on the gun wouldn't make S&W unique.
Also, you're skipping an important step in your thought process. Smith doesn't have to say "if anyone works on the gun, your warranty is voided." What they could very easily say, however, is that if someone works on the gun and breaks it, Smith isn't going to take responsibility. Heck, technically SIG only authorizes trained armorers to remove the grip panels on Classic Line guns. Does that mean you can't change your grips? No. But if you end up with a stripped thread boss in the frame, you're likely to pay to get it fixed.
BTW, at least some gun companies recommend against using a sight pusher to remove and install sights anyway. They're intended for adjusting windage and don't always do a good job in a complete swap.
I can't see this as being a good situation for S&W.
A new, and single purpose tool would be nice -- if reasonably priced.
They should probably also consider strengthening the slides to combat the problem of common sight installation tools breaking them.
In my opinion, they are facing a loser of a situation on what amounts to a real winner of a pistol design.
John_Wayne777
01-16-08, 18:41
I just hope that S&W has greater foresight here.
So do I. :D
What I did SHOULDN'T have busted the slide....it certainly didn't bust the slides on my two 9mms. I'm hardly the most skilled gunsmith in the world, but even a dope like me knows when to quit if something isn't going in right....
Alienating a long time loyal customer who owns a dozen of your products and who plans to make more purchases in the future over something like this would generally be a bad move....
All my dealings with S&W have been exceptionally good, so I don't doubt that they'll treat me right here. GotM4 has been kind enough to give me some company contacts that can probably assist me even if the folks doing the repair decide I should pay for it.
No doubt, they should replace it for free under these circumstances. The tipping point, of course, comes only if they really understand the circumstances. In most gun companies' Customer Service cube farms, the little details tend to get lost in the face of corporate policies.
Everyone says Smith's CS is outstanding. Hopefully, that trend will continue with this.
crowkiller
01-17-08, 10:01
What i dont understand is why this would crack the slide in the first place. Id think it would dent or bend quit a bit before it would crack. Im interested in knowing if S&W acknowledges there was an issue with the slide and JW777's sight pusher just found it for them.;)
Wayne Dobbs
01-17-08, 10:34
"Id think it would dent or bend quit a bit before it would crack"
That depends on how hard it is after heat treating the slide and how that heat treat may have been affected by the Melonite application, which I believe is also a heat treating process. If you get steel very hard, it also gets very brittle. There is no free lunch...
crowkiller
01-19-08, 08:31
"Id think it would dent or bend quit a bit before it would crack"
That depends on how hard it is after heat treating the slide and how that heat treat may have been affected by the Melonite application, which I believe is also a heat treating process. If you get steel very hard, it also gets very brittle. There is no free lunch...
Agreed! I would like to know if this slide in question is hardened correctly to Smith's specs. It doesnt sound like JW777 used a whole lot of force on this so Im thinking it might be too brittle. Do you think that maybe the stainless steel they use might not be the right choice for the job?
It just occurrred to me that using the pusher tool and finding the crack at the same time may be coincidental----perhaps the crack was already there.???
Williejc
There are no pushers for the M&P's yet, but S&W is evaluating some right now and they will be available for sail by the end of the month.
C4Now THAT's something I gotta see. :D
Now THAT's something I gotta see. :D
LOL, only God is perfect!
C4
John_Wayne777
01-29-08, 19:30
Update:
I had a lovely box from UPS waiting on me when I got home today that contained my M&P .45. They replaced the slide free of charge.
For some reason the trigger is also quite a bit improved over what it was when I sent the pistol in.
Good on S&W for stepping up to the plate on this one!
FlyAndFight
01-29-08, 19:58
I've been following this thread from the get-go and it's good to hear that you've got a happy ending to your predicament, JW777.
I had a lovely box from UPS waiting on me when I got home today that contained my M&P .45. They replaced the slide free of charge.
For some reason the trigger is also quite a bit improved over what it was when I sent the pistol in.
Good on S&W for stepping up to the plate on this one!
Awesome!
Now, gotta do something about those sights. Where's that sight pusher...
Robb Jensen
01-29-08, 20:28
Good to hear JW777! I'm glad they did that.
crowkiller
01-30-08, 10:05
Cool deal JW and good for you S&W ;)
there have been competitions that i have been to that shooters have drop there mag's in the mud and had too completely take apart their mag and clean then or they wouldnt feed consistently. also if you drop them the rounds can come out flying or flipping back wards inside the mag. there are people that should become S&W salesman in this thread. understand that not all the guns will fit every body, but tham they can sure nock on the one they cant shoot with.
I tried to replicate this last weekend and couldn't. I took 3 mags and loaded them with 5, 7, and 9 rounds. I then dropped the mags from shoulder height from the mag release onto gravel and then concrete, 10X each (20 total drops per magazine gravel and concrete). There was no damage and no bullet flips. After completing all drops I fired the loaded rounds. The temperature was 18 degrees.
That great to hear that they replaced it no charge but it doesn't surprise me at all.
Robb Jensen
02-06-08, 06:52
Ernest Langdon had the new S&W sight tool at SHOT for the M&Ps, it's a new style MGW sight tool (blue in color). It looks just like the one for Glocks to me. I think I'll stick to using the padded vise which I've been doing since hearing of people breaking slides.
John_Wayne777
02-06-08, 07:20
Ernest Langdon had the new S&W sight tool at SHOT for the M&Ps, it's a new style MGW sight tool (blue in color). It looks just like the one for Glocks to me. I think I'll stick to using the padded vise which I've been doing since hearing of people breaking slides.
Does the tool do front sights as well, or just rear?
Grant mentioned something about it doing front sights but if it's an MGW I don't see how it could.....
Robb Jensen
02-06-08, 07:21
Does the tool do front sights as well, or just rear?
Grant mentioned something about it doing front sights but if it's an MGW I don't see how it could.....
Good question. I didn't even notice.
Is there any published information on when S&W
1. Changed the slides
2. Changed the Strikers
I am not going to panic if I own a pre-change pistol....but it would be noce to know. Especially iif buying a used pistol, etc
Wayne Dobbs
02-06-08, 08:24
JW777,
I've heard that the MGW M&P sight pusher will do both rear and front sights. My MGW for Sigs also does both the front and rear sights. I also heard that you won't be able to order the tool from standard outlets but will have to go through Smith. I'm sure that will drive the price good and high. It would've been nice to have Brownell's selling them, but I bet that will take a while.
Wayne
Has anyone heard of frames cracking?
Saw it mentioned on another site...but it may just be errornet legend
Has anyone heard of frames cracking?]
Yes. On Berettas, Glocks, SIGs, Smiths, and 1911s, off the top of my head.
I see I need to be more specific:rolleyes:
Any incidences of frames cracking on the M&P?
I know there was at least one reported at mp-pistol.com ... haven't seen it personally.
I have the same affliction...so no harm nor foul
Lumpy....I understood his answer....I was merely pointing out that it did not fit my question (as intended if not actually as stated)
Not everyone is as smart as you and I and they might think my question had actually been addressed
I won't roll my eyes in this thread....don't want anyones self esteem to suffer:p
Back on topic...I examined both my 9 and 45 and while I see some peening in the 9mm notch, the 45 seems to have different geometry
9mm MPM and 45 MPX
Of course I have more like 3000-4000 rounds through mine
I thought mine were dirty till I looked at some of Todds pics
Based on a very good meeting I had with folks from Smith during SHOT, my understanding is that it is a result of too-sharp tooling and only afflicts one or two slides when they switch to a new cutter. Even then it won't strike down every gun affected ... but if enough factors come together, the slide cracks. They've seen it so far in one out of every 20,000 pistols.
They've already got a solution in the works which is undergoing final testing now and should become standard soon. It's incredibly refreshing to deal with a company that looks at a 1:20,000 problem and actually fixes it rather than considering it acceptable failure.
YukonGlocker
02-07-08, 12:31
Yes. On Berettas, Glocks, SIGs, Smiths, and 1911s, off the top of my head.
:D :eek: :D
Does the tool do front sights as well, or just rear?
Grant mentioned something about it doing front sights but if it's an MGW I don't see how it could.....
It is MGW and does do both front and rear.
C4
Yes. On Berettas, Glocks, SIGs, Smiths, and 1911s, off the top of my head.
Agree. Virtually every manufacturer has this happen.
C4
crowkiller
02-08-08, 09:07
Based on a very good meeting I had with folks from Smith during SHOT, my understanding is that it is a result of too-sharp tooling and only afflicts one or two slides when they switch to a new cutter. Even then it won't strike down every gun affected ... but if enough factors come together, the slide cracks. They've seen it so far in one out of every 20,000 pistols.
They've already got a solution in the works which is undergoing final testing now and should become standard soon. It's incredibly refreshing to deal with a company that looks at a 1:20,000 problem and actually fixes it rather than considering it acceptable failure.
Thanks for passing the info. It sounds like Smith has really been working hard to get even the slightest problems right on the M&P it is refreshing.
Wayne Dobbs
02-08-08, 09:14
Todd,
I was able to speak with a couple of the significant Smith LE guys at SHOT and got the same feelings from them about quality. They clearly indicated that they wanted to do the job right each and every time on their guns. They also came from another polymer gun maker that while producing a great product, has often stonewalled problems of design or manufacture with regard to their product's "Perfection"...
It's good to see Smith back in the LE world!
Wayne -- in fact, so many of Smith's LE sales guys and other key people came from that other gun company (TOGC?), that company threatened to sue Smith over it. :cool:
John_Wayne777
02-08-08, 14:14
It is MGW and does do both front and rear.
Excellent. Holler at me when you get some in. I've got 3 M&Ps that need new front sights and I don't want to run the risk of breaking yet another front sight. :mad:
It's incredibly refreshing to deal with a company that looks at a 1:20,000 problem and actually fixes it rather than considering it acceptable failure.
I think too many times the manufacturer is afraid to fix something because they see it as an admission that they screwed up to begin with
Kudos to S&W
Obiwan -- Absolutely. Smith is probably going to come out with an improved striker this year. It will take no time for the first 250,000 M&P owners to whine that they deserve a free upgrade.
I experienced this first hand (over and over and over again) when I worked at Beretta. The company developed and began using a much more durable locking block to address concerns that the part failed too easily/often. Suddenly, every previously made Beretta became "broken" and folks screamed for free replacement parts. Now, their guns still worked. Their guns would almost certainly work for the rest of their lives. But they saw there was a better widget now, and they felt a sense of entitlement.
Same thing happened to me when I was at SIG. An agency (customer) found out that a part in their 13 year old P228's had been improved in the late 90's or early 00's. They wanted 3,500 free parts, plus someone(s) to perform the labor of swapping all the old for new, on these 13 year old guns! They hadn't suffered a rash of breakages. They never complained about the part. But when they found out there was a better one, poof, suddenly it was doom and gloom, officer safety and officer confidence and utter madness all around.
In 2005 I bought a new Infiniti sedan. In late 2007, they came out with a completely revamped model ... more powerful engine, bigger interior, better stereo. On a lark, I went in and asked when they'd be doing my no-cost trade-in. The sales people must not have had any experience in the firearms industry, because they thought that was the stupidest thing anyone had ever asked them. :cool:
It never ceases to amaze me how someone can be supremely happy with a firearm one day, and then simply because a new production run is even better suddenly he thinks his gun is a POS.
New Mexico State Police just traded all of their G31's in .357 for the new M&P in .357. The head armorer and range officer has always loved Smith autos. They stated that they had problems with the G31. Mostly with the slide rails. But Glock was fixing any problems so why switch?
:(
For the same reason many agencies change when a new boss takes over. The new boss has an "equipment honeymoon" where he gets his way if it's not too outlandish. The new guy came from an agency that was S&W because it was what he liked. So...out with Glock and in with Smith. That same week, Glock picked up an agency three times as large.
Another large agency that I am very familiar with just picked up Sig for two reasons, it was not polymer and they provided customer service where Beretta would not.
Nothing mysterious...just people being involved in the process.
I think too many times the manufacturer is afraid to fix something because they see it as an admission that they screwed up to begin with
Kudos to S&W
Unfortunately, this is correct. One of the factors in the cost/benefit analysis on correcting problems is the hit to the public image and goodwill, as well as the potential for increased liability exposure.
Nothing mysterious...just people being involved in the process.
When such switches occur, I've found it enlightening to call the agencies and talk to the FTU and armorer staff. They aren't often informative, as they aren't as involved in the process as one would think they'd be. They only seem to sigh heavily and direct the inquiry to admin.
The subsequent calls to admin requesting test data, or at least useful information, are often met with "ummm...."
Backchannel info on the process reveals the usual criteria...
"This is neat!"
"They can ship right away!"
"We'll be the first agency with..."
"It's cheaper than..."
"It's not a..."
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