View Full Version : Negligent Discharge at 3 Gun This Past Weekend
Well, as the title says there was a negligent discharge at 3 Gun this past weekend. I won't offer details about who, or where exactly, but on a pistol/rifle combined stage one of the competitors was holstering his pistol in a kneeling position and discharged the weapon through his holster and into his leg. The bullet passed through the holster and entered the backside of the man's calf, missing bone, missing artery, missing vein and missing any major nerves so far as any of us know - to pass clean through, out the other side and into the dirt.
The shooter was using a Sig pistol loaded with a 147gr 9mm FMJ subsonic, and fired into their leg from less than a foot away. Judging by entry/exit wounds only it looked like it sliced right through and aside from minimal blood loss their wasn't much damage. The wound was immediately dressed by the 8-10 other competitors (myself included) who swarmed the shooter to provide emergency first aid. I had ripped my belt off in order to provide a strong compression in lieu of a tourniquet but luckily in about three to five minutes, bleeding was stopped with compression bandages and no tourniquet was needed. By the time the ambulance arrived 12-15 minutes later, things were under control and the shooter had called his wife to let her know what had happened and where to meet him.
It went from normal to crazy and back to normal very quickly.
I think what happened was that the shooter was going fast and forgot to decock his Sig before holstering, possibly with his finger in the way of the trigger, therefore discharging the gun as he jammed it into the holster. -- At least that's what it looked like from my angle standing behind him and to the left about 12 feet. It was not the perfect vantage point to see what his right hand was doing. -- As soon as it occurred everyone knew what happened and the wheels started turning. It was nice to see that people pitched in, worked together and that people knew what to do. Turns out, if you're going to shoot yourself in the leg then you might as well do it with a half a dozen combat lifesaver qualified people in the crowd.
Luckily it wasn't a life threatening wound in the first place but had it hit an artery, vein, or his bone, then it could have been alot worse for him. I just wanted to post this in the Emergency First Aid section as a reminder to everyone how fast things can go wrong and urge everyone to seek out some basic emergency first aid training if you've never had it. You could save your life or that of someone else some day.
SeriousStudent
05-01-12, 21:38
I'm glad it turned out as well as it did.
I am curious, was there some sort of safety brief prior to the start of competition? What to do in case of unplanned loud noises?
And are they looking to make any changes in the future?
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-01-12, 23:17
He was on a knee? Was this on the clock or was he preparing for the stage?
SS, There was a safety brief as there always is at this competition/range. There will be changes in the future but they haven't been decided yet. If you've got any suggestions then I'd like to hear them but I know giving valid suggestions without more information than what I've offered may be difficult.
FMCDH, Yes he was on a knee behind low cover shooting at some steel poppers with his pistol. The shooter had to holster his pistol before getting his rifle up for more shooting while moving on the way to the next firing position. Everything was on the clock.
Glad he was not seriously hurt. BTW, most GSW distal extremity wounds require local pressure only to control bleeding. It is very rare to need a tourniquet for these wounds - especially in the US where hospitals are fairly common.
thanks for posting. A good reminder.
SS, There was a safety brief as there always is at this competition/range. There will be changes in the future but they haven't been decided yet. If you've got any suggestions then I'd like to hear them but I know giving valid suggestions without more information than what I've offered may be difficult.
FMCDH, Yes he was on a knee behind low cover shooting at some steel poppers with his pistol. The shooter had to holster his pistol before getting his rifle up for more shooting while moving on the way to the next firing position. Everything was on the clock.
I havent shot much 3 gun, but reholstering on the clock is bad juju . At the matches I have shot or know of once the pistol comes on line if another gun is up next it is empty before it goes down, and then usually on a table or into a container.
Glad to bar the guy is OK, well as OK as one can be with a shiny new bullet hole. It's also nice to hear that people stepped up and were able to help, but that is not unexpected. It's not like 3 Gun or other matches are attended by sheep.
Without knowing details of the stage, I'd also suggest a review of the stage design. Don't have a lot of experience with 3 Gun, but I'm also in the speed reholstering is a bad idea in general club.
bullittmcqueen
05-02-12, 14:59
First off I am glad the gentleman is safe and did not suffer any more serious injury than he did.
Forgive me for my possible naivete, but in the 3 gun matches I have participated in, why was he allowed to reholster a loaded weapon after completing his COF? This is a huge no-no at the club I shoot in (grounds for DQ). After a run, the weapon must be cleared, decocked/hammer down and shown to an RO before reholstering is allowed.....did he just forget his safety brief or is this an area for improvement?
I havent shot much 3 gun, but reholstering on the clock is bad juju . At the matches I have shot or know of once the pistol comes on line if another gun is up next it is empty before it goes down, and then usually on a table or into a container.
ShawnL-
I struggle with the belief that holstering a hot pistol during a COF is unsafe. Since almost all of us are CCW types this is surely a skill one must master.
We run a game called ACTS here in MI and we have reholstered on the clock for the better part of 6 years without incident. We strive to provide as real world scenarios as we can create with in the confines of the square range and I think when people often refer to the mindset that competition builds bad habits, the inability to reholster a hot pistol is certianly one I don't think we should be propagating.
I tend to think, how hard is it to get people to keep their head screwed on straight under pressure of competition and if they can't handle that, what are they gonna do in the mix of a real deadly force encounter. All this unloading and grounding weapons is tactically unsound.
ShawnL-
I struggle with the belief that holstering a hot pistol during a COF is unsafe. Since almost all of us are CCW types this is surely a skill one must master.
We run a game called ACTS here in MI and we have reholstered on the clock for the better part of 6 years without incident. We strive to provide as real world scenarios as we can create with in the confines of the square range and I think when people often refer to the mindset that competition builds bad habits, the inability to reholster a hot pistol is certianly one I don't think we should be propagating.
I tend to think, how hard is it to get people to keep their head screwed on straight under pressure of competition and if they can't handle that, what are they gonna do in the mix of a real deadly force encounter. All this unloading and grounding weapons is tactically unsound.
I understand your points, I just disagree.
First off, its a game. It doesnt need to be "tactically sound" , we shoot it for sport.
secondly can you give me any context in which I , a civilian CCW holder will need to reholster a hot gun when fractions of a second matter ? FAST back into that holster !
Most of my instruction has included items like "draw fast, shoot accurately, reholster reluctantly"
I think its just a bad idea in an environment where the only prerequisite for shooting that COF is the ability to show up with a gun.
SeriousStudent
05-02-12, 19:32
SS, There was a safety brief as there always is at this competition/range. There will be changes in the future but they haven't been decided yet. If you've got any suggestions then I'd like to hear them but I know giving valid suggestions without more information than what I've offered may be difficult.
FMCDH, Yes he was on a knee behind low cover shooting at some steel poppers with his pistol. The shooter had to holster his pistol before getting his rifle up for more shooting while moving on the way to the next firing position. Everything was on the clock.
It sounds like you had a good response time from EMS. A lot of ranges are in more rural areas. The last range that I spent time at with strangers, I always had a laminated card with the exact address and GPS coordinates. I am not sure if that would be something your RO's might consider.
Again, I'm glad you were not injured, and no one was killed.
ShawnL-
We try to get the shooters to go as FAST as they safely can, so they only need to holster as fast a they can safely go, we often have stages that run a couple of minutes and a second or two to safely holster rarely makes any negilble difference in the overall score.
As for a time reholstering quickly is maybe and empahsize maybe, is when the self defense is over, wouldn't to better to reholster a hot weapon than clear it? Don't we holster hot weapons every morning.
We really try to avoid the game aspect and work on doing it correctly, e.g. use of cover, ammo management, transitioning when a weapon goes down. We just are not willing to force folks to build bad habits.
I see your point on showing up with a gun, we ride folks like a hawk and we have sent unsafe handlers home a bunch of times.
I think the stress innoculation of competition is a good thing for folks to experience.
I understand what you guys do is a speed game and you are correct that if you are running for pure speed the incidence for bad things to happen is increased, I just think these games build habits that can get folks killed or hurt as they will do what they have practiced.
Please take my comments with a HUGE grain of salt as my experience in the 3 Gun world is next to nothing. It's a great thing that the club you shoot with has been putting on matches for years without incident. That is something definitely to be proud of, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a better way to skin a cat. It's also a VERY good thing that you try to make things as realistic as possible and maybe help prepare people for the event that hopefully never comes rather than help them develop horrible habits cause they were fast and won a stage at a match.
With that said, I can't think of a good reason to have to speed reholster. As a CCW person I am not holstering my gun until I am sure the scene is safe and there are no more threats about. At that time I'm going to do it so slow that I can count the hairs on my arms. Being amped up on adrenaline is the time I'm going to make a mistake and shoot myself. If the cops show up I'm dropping that baby to the ground so they don't perceive me as a threat and kill me. I'm not gonna try to reholster quickly. Additionally, I can't think of a reason to transition from a powerful weapons platform (carbine) to a weak platform (pistol) unless the carbine is down. That means that a transition back to the carbine under duress is not needed. Why not set up stages with the handgun section at the end simulating a malfunction or out of ammo deal and then the need to reholster under the clock is eliminated.
I don't mean to sound like a nitpick or an ass, but since you want to look at ways to minimize the potential for this happening again you should look at everything.
Taz we do set up stages the way you suggest, but not always.
I also agree speed reholstering is bad as a tactic. We often setup a carbine malf where, you transition, control the carbine, engage targets, move to cover, reholster(hot) and fix the carbine and drive on.
It's been said many times you will default to your level of training not rise to the occasion, so what are you training yourself to do at the end of an engagement, clear the gun, show it empty and reholster.
I know a lot of folks disagree with my stance, I just like to hear what others are thinking from time to time. I think the biggest disconnect for most is that our game is not about speed, or at least as much as we can try to not make it about speed, we aren't always succesful.
What we'd like to think it's about is good tactics and keeping ones head in the fight, so my view is that if you can't seem to safely stuff that blaster in it's holster and drive on you are doing yourself a disservice, if that is too much pressure how will you handle a deadly force encounter.
No issue on your comments, civil discourse is always welcome.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-02-12, 21:09
Big difference between 'hot' and on the clock. I still struggle to see a viable reason to holster a hot gun in the middle of a timed stage. In my opinion what you are doing is putting two stages together. If someone getting shot in the leg doesn't disuade your club from changing its protocols, I don't see how our input will. I'd never participate in a stage with that set-up, and I hate the dry and clear step in three gun matches.
Big difference between 'hot' and on the clock. I still struggle to see a viable reason to holster a hot gun in the middle of a timed stage. In my opinion what you are doing is putting two stages together. If someone getting shot in the leg doesn't disuade your club from changing its protocols, I don't see how our input will. I'd never participate in a stage with that set-up, and I hate the dry and clear step in three gun matches.
Just to be clear, this was NOT my club that had the ND.
We've been good for a long time doing what we do.
We have run a match once a month since 9/2005 and we have had no issues with hot reholstering on the clock.
We have had a couple ND's when folks clear at the end of the stage, but no injuries.
It's all about the shooter keeping their head in the game regardless what's going on. Competition should be stress innoculation, but most dumb it down to be a mindless game, stand here, shoot this, put that gun down, pick up that one, move to that box, shoot these targets, all just for speed. I'd like to think I spend my time more constructively on the range and in competition.
Interestingly enough, we've seen another group move there comps to be closer to ours...
I am a fan of BIG BOY rules on the range and prefer to be HOT all the time but I know that is not the case in the game world. NEVER is a gun put back in a holster without showing clear at least at the comps I have been to. Way too much to risk as we have just seen.
BIG difference betwen real world and games. There are tons of great games shooters out there but very few would I want to go down a dark hallway with! I stopped shooting IDPA and USPSA for a while because I was getting all assed up by all the rules of what you could do and how and when you could handle your weapons. The range I operate in daily is not square or has a 180 firing line so it was hard for me to deal with. I got tired of all the range nazis.
Im back at it now and realize that there is a switch that needs to be turned off if you operate under big boy rules and want to play gun games.
I am a fan of BIG BOY rules on the range and prefer to be HOT all the time but I know that is not the case in the game world. NEVER is a gun put back in a holster without showing clear at least at the comps I have been to. Way too much to risk as we have just seen.
BIG difference betwen real world and games. There are tons of great games shooters out there but very few would I want to go down a dark hallway with! I stopped shooting IDPA and USPSA for a while because I was getting all assed up by all the rules of what you could do and how and when you could handle your weapons. The range I operate in daily is not square or has a 180 firing line so it was hard for me to deal with. I got tired of all the range nazis.
Im back at it now and realize that there is a switch that needs to be turned off if you operate under big boy rules and want to play gun games.
I hear what your saying, but how many people will be able to flip the switch and do whats right at the right time. Just doesn't make sense to train folks to opposite of what they should do.
To be clear, the club is safe but accidents do happen. To my knowledge this is the first injury to ever happen here and it's been going on a while. Nevertheless, a review of rules and stages will hopefully prevent this from happening in the future but personally I have mixed feelings about never holstering on the clock again.
I've got to think there's real life situations in which you'd want to go from rifle to pistol and back to rifle rather quickly, and therefore there's got to be ways to 1) practice it and 2) set a CoF to test it.
Any ideas?
I hear what your saying, but how many people will be able to flip the switch and do whats right at the right time. Just doesn't make sense to train folks to opposite of what they should do.
Ive spoken to a fair number of "real deal face shooters" who enjoy playing gun games for what they are, and while the whole "that will get you killed on the street!" rhetoric makes some logical simple sense Ive yet to see any real evidence of someone who plays gun games under fire suddenly thinking they are in a game and unloading and showing clear.
Personally I like to compete, and I dont for one second believe I will suddenly lose my mind in a lethal force encounter (I have been a number of fights, armed robberies, and one shooting where I was not armed).
What I do know is that shooting competition has pushed me to become a better marksman and gun handler than I believe I would have otherwise. Further I have seen in some training using SIM guns and under world class instruction where my gaming experience has paid off in spades. I am absolutely unconcerned with solving the shooting the problem. And no one needs to remind where you are when a round comes cracking past your ear.
I will add that I think gaming , for me, is part of a largely inclusive well rounded training regime that includes real hands on FoF (what most CCW types severely lack is not fractions of a second on a reload but knowing whats its like to have someone bigger and stronger than you wrap you up with ill intent), Martial Arts, top tier training in firearms of all types, blades, role playing, grappling, and yes playing gun games to win.
shooting competition has pushed me to become a better marksman and gun handler than I believe I would have otherwise.
I will add that I think gaming , for me, is part of a largely inclusive well rounded training regime
These comments jumped out at me.
The way I look at it, gun games are just another part of my training plan for a real life encounter that may never come. My goal is to master my weapon and master myself, and doing those things will only help me if I ever have to defend my life or that of my loved ones with a firearm. My competitive nature is naturally strong but coupled with the fact that I get to test my skill set periodically against other like minded shooters... I see this only as win-win.
I don't think that anyone is suggesting that a person interested in self defense replace their training with competitions.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-03-12, 18:09
I've got to think there's real life situations in which you'd want to go from rifle to pistol and back to rifle rather quickly, and therefore there's got to be ways to 1) practice it and 2) set a CoF to test it.
Any ideas?
Split the stage in two. Maybe it is a good question for our SME section, but I've never heard of a tactical reason to rapidly go from your handgun to your rifle. I'm not a real ninja or a square range ninja, but trying to go thru it logically in my head.
You start with a rifle and it goes down so you switch to the handgun. The only time you'd go back to the rifle is if you are in a safe place where you'll be able to get the rifle back up and running. If there are threats you don't want a good handgun in the holster and a bad rifle being finger banged, right?
The other scenario is that you are running a handgun and you find a battlefield pick up rifle. In an active situation, do you really want to put your known handgun away and run a rifle that be definition got the last guy who held it shot?
The only scenario where I see you rapidly going from the handgun to the rifle is that some far threat, that can't be engaged with a handgun, nessesitates that you go to the rifle (you know is good)- NOW! I guess then you speed reholster and get on the rifle, but if it is that much of a time-is-life moment, you could almost argue that literally dropping handgun and getting on the rifle would be the best route- that's what we do with the rifle when we switch to the handgun (granted it is usually slung and inoperative).
Anyway you slice it, you are timing someone on their holstering ability.
I guess what the real crux is, yes someone can come up with a scenario where you need to speed reholster, but I would argue that the practicing of this is not worth the risk.
And what will people say when it happens again? There is already one GSW victim from training for a scenario that has limited tactical value.
Stop the clock, reholster. Restart the clock or add times together. No need to tape up targets or do the things that make matches last forever.
Ive spoken to a fair number of "real deal face shooters" who enjoy playing gun games for what they are, and while the whole "that will get you killed on the street!" rhetoric makes some logical simple sense Ive yet to see any real evidence of someone who plays gun games under fire suddenly thinking they are in a game and unloading and showing clear.
Personally I like to compete, and I dont for one second believe I will suddenly lose my mind in a lethal force encounter (I have been a number of fights, armed robberies, and one shooting where I was not armed).
What I do know is that shooting competition has pushed me to become a better marksman and gun handler than I believe I would have otherwise. Further I have seen in some training using SIM guns and under world class instruction where my gaming experience has paid off in spades. I am absolutely unconcerned with solving the shooting the problem. And no one needs to remind where you are when a round comes cracking past your ear.
I will add that I think gaming , for me, is part of a largely inclusive well rounded training regime that includes real hands on FoF (what most CCW types severely lack is not fractions of a second on a reload but knowing whats its like to have someone bigger and stronger than you wrap you up with ill intent), Martial Arts, top tier training in firearms of all types, blades, role playing, grappling, and yes playing gun games to win.
Clearly some folks will be able to flip the switch so to speak, but I still think we are enforcing bad habits on folks who can least afford them. Thanks again for the food for thought.
Clearly some folks will be able to flip the switch so to speak, but I still think we are enforcing bad habits on folks who can least afford them. Thanks again for the food for thought.
to add more food for thought lets think of the issue of scale.
I have several thousand hours of formal firearms training and dedicated practice using what most would call solid fighting technique , hot guns, real use of cover , opponents with malevolent intent, ect.
If I shoot 2 matches a month I will need to "unload and show clear" 10 times....... see where Im going ?
Now, if your only training (which it isnt)/ practice is gun games.... youve got more issues than just holstering a hot gun will solve.
Glad he was not seriously hurt. BTW, most GSW distal extremity wounds require local pressure only to control bleeding. It is very rare to need a tourniquet for these wounds - especially in the US where hospitals are fairly common.
Please don't comment if you are going to provide incorrect information.
Extremity wounds consistent with the area that the OP described that do involve arteries can be a serious life threat and require a TQ. Considering that in extremity wounds beyond the knee and elbow you can still lose enough blood to go into shock within 10-15 minutes a TQ is not the wrong thing to do if arterial bleeding is identified upon initial inspection of the patient/wound.
The commonness of hospitals in the US has little to do with anything if the range you are shooting at is 45 minutes away or further from the closest facility. With the exception of indoor ranges (relative rarity), most ranges are a good distance from developed towns or cities.
Even when close to a hospital you shouldn't rationalize that you are close enough to not take aggressive steps towards stopping arterial bleeding. I am reminded of a LEO dying in the back of a patrol car as his colleagues tried to use direct pressure only to stop bleeding from a lower extremity femoral wound after being involved in a shooting that was "less than 5 minutes from the hospital".
Add on top of that the fact that the earliest info on TQs from our most recent conflicts in AFG and Iraq were supporting use even in theater during the days where the average time of a medevac transport from point of injury to at a minimum a BAS was under 1 hour (circa 2005), relative close proximity does not excuse using a TQ as a 'last resort' just before the patient has lost all the blood they can dump on the ground because direct pressure failed.
Feel free to spout off about nerve/tissue damage, lactic acid build up, loss of function, loss of limb, etc but most of these have been dispelled as long as you use a premanufactured TQ at least 1" wide and it is removed within a few hours (3-5 depending on the info source).
I agree that this patient did not need a TQ but painting with such a broad brush isn't helpful.
Alaskapopo
05-03-12, 23:53
I am a fan of BIG BOY rules on the range and prefer to be HOT all the time but I know that is not the case in the game world. NEVER is a gun put back in a holster without showing clear at least at the comps I have been to. Way too much to risk as we have just seen.
BIG difference betwen real world and games. There are tons of great games shooters out there but very few would I want to go down a dark hallway with! I stopped shooting IDPA and USPSA for a while because I was getting all assed up by all the rules of what you could do and how and when you could handle your weapons. The range I operate in daily is not square or has a 180 firing line so it was hard for me to deal with. I got tired of all the range nazis.
Im back at it now and realize that there is a switch that needs to be turned off if you operate under big boy rules and want to play gun games.
I know how you feel. I have come to accept cold ranges and I understand why they exist but I prefer a hot range myself.
Pat
ShawnL-
I struggle with the belief that holstering a hot pistol during a COF is unsafe. Since almost all of us are CCW types this is surely a skill one must master.
We run a game called ACTS here in MI and we have reholstered on the clock for the better part of 6 years without incident. We strive to provide as real world scenarios as we can create with in the confines of the square range and I think when people often refer to the mindset that competition builds bad habits, the inability to reholster a hot pistol is certianly one I don't think we should be propagating.
I tend to think, how hard is it to get people to keep their head screwed on straight under pressure of competition and if they can't handle that, what are they gonna do in the mix of a real deadly force encounter. All this unloading and grounding weapons is tactically unsound.
I know next to nothing about competition but I am going to call bullshit on this one. Forgive me for being out of my lane.
In the real world, you bring fire on your threat as quickly as possible while maintaining appropriate accuracy. There is no clock pushing you to reholster in a hurry. As a matter of fact, holstering too quickly itself is a horrible range scar. Doing so on a clock seems to me like it exacerbates the issue.
Holstering quickly can lead to finger on the trigger if not appropriately trained, brain farts such as forgetting to decock, and difficult to control issues such as clothing or other objects finding their way into the trigger guard on reholster. Why the hell would you ever train to drop your guard as fast as possible?
Just because your club has done so without incident for 6 years doesn't mean shit. Sounds like institutional inbreeding to me. And just because you have a CCW doesn't mean that it is safe, or tactically prudent, to reholster in a hurry.
I think you need to reevaluate your thinking before deciding what is "tactically unsound" and not.
Alaskapopo
05-04-12, 05:20
I like hot ranges but holstering should never be done on the clock. In real life you should never be in a rush to put your gun away.
Pat
to add more food for thought lets think of the issue of scale.
I have several thousand hours of formal firearms training and dedicated practice using what most would call solid fighting technique , hot guns, real use of cover , opponents with malevolent intent, ect.
If I shoot 2 matches a month I will need to "unload and show clear" 10 times....... see where Im going ?
Now, if your only training (which it isnt)/ practice is gun games.... youve got more issues than just holstering a hot gun will solve.
ShawnL-
You and I are clearly guys who can flip the switch, but I worry more about the guys who don't have the training and experience we do.
These are are just starting to learn what they don't know. Also to be clear, I don't have an issue with clearing at the end of a stage, for me it's clearing and grounding a working gun during an engagement so that you can access another gun.
This is commonly done in 3 gun and it is more to what I was refering to. I see how one of my prior comments addressed the clearing at the end of a stage as the problem.
JR TACTICAL
05-04-12, 11:43
Glad he was not seriously hurt. BTW, most GSW distal extremity wounds require local pressure only to control bleeding. It is very rare to need a tourniquet for these wounds - especially in the US where hospitals are fairly common.
Agreed, OP be careful to jump right to tourniquet use. In some cases that can actually cause more harm than good. Firm, direct pressure is usually all that is needed
I know next to nothing about competition but I am going to call bullshit on this one. Forgive me for being out of my lane.
In the real world, you bring fire on your threat as quickly as possible while maintaining appropriate accuracy. There is no clock pushing you to reholster in a hurry. As a matter of fact, holstering too quickly itself is a horrible range scar. Doing so on a clock seems to me like it exacerbates the issue.
Holstering quickly can lead to finger on the trigger if not appropriately trained, brain farts such as forgetting to decock, and difficult to control issues such as clothing or other objects finding their way into the trigger guard on reholster. Why the hell would you ever train to drop your guard as fast as possible?
Just because your club has done so without incident for 6 years doesn't mean shit. Sounds like institutional inbreeding to me. And just because you have a CCW doesn't mean that it is safe, or tactically prudent, to reholster in a hurry.
I think you need to reevaluate your thinking before deciding what is "tactically unsound" and not.
Sboza-
While I respect your ability to provide input, I would request you try to be a bit more civil, two insults in three paragraphs is a bit galling.
In reviewing some of what I written, I think I may have gotten abit off line in what I was intending to relate.
So to attempt to be clear, what I have an issue with is the requirement in some games (3-gun) to clear and ground a gun before moving to the next weapon. In my mind it is tactily unsound to abandon a working weapon.
Additionaly, it is my thinking that a person should be able to control themselves and be able to holster a hot pistol at anytime safely, if the pressure of the clock is to overwlehming to them then maybe they shoud reconsider their choice to choose firearms as their martial art, as a real world encounter is a hell of lot more pressure than any game.
So let me ask one further broad question, say you have just been in a gun fight, you vanquish your foe and now you need to deal with the hit on your leg, so what are you gonna do with that blaster, clear it and set it down or are you gonna reholster it and get one with saving your life before you bleed out. I know I'd want my blaster handy in case his friends show up, but in the mean time I might need two hand to treat myself or others.
I like hot ranges but holstering should never be done on the clock. In real life you should never be in a rush to put your gun away.
Pat
Pat-
I agree about the hot range, if you look at my post to Sboza, I think I/we got off the rails a bit. My beef is with clearing and abandoning a working weapon during a course of fire and with the entire concept that folks are incapable of holstering a hot pistol under any kind of stress. Could be I'm full of crap, but I do aprrecaite the civil input may others have provided in this thread.
The_War_Wagon
05-04-12, 13:06
First off, kudos to you guys who leapt into action to the wounded man's aid. Ass-chewings and AAR's can mop up the details later, but when it all went wrong for him, sounds like y'all did it RIGHT for him.
That said, I'm gonna stand with Shawn on this one. Having had to retrain/replace my OLD guy, 20-year-out-of-date fundamentals under his tutelage (and others) these past couple of years, the emphasis has all been on the SLOW/SECURE re-holster.
From a self-defense standpoint, when all is TRULY clear, then you can smoke 'em if ya' got 'em, clear the pistol as necessary, RE-holster, and wait for the police to come file a report. If you're gaming on a range, so be it. I don't run 3-gun, so I like the way Shawn's taught me - especially as a 1911 guy!
Keep us posted on how this affects your range/competition rules. Since - thankfully - AD/ND's seem rare among us, I think it will be helpful to examine the "lessons learned" in the aftermath of this incident.
So let me ask one further broad question, say you have just been in a gun fight, you vanquish your foe and now you need to deal with the hit on your leg, so what are you gonna do with that blaster, clear it and set it down or are you gonna reholster it and get one with saving your life before you bleed out. I know I'd want my blaster handy in case his friends show up, but in the mean time I might need two hand to treat myself or others.
I don't understand the disconnect here. There is very little in competition that reinforces sound tactics to begin with. Shooting ability under pressure and a chance to do non square range type of shooting seem to be a major benefit of competition.
Rushing from target to target, improper use of cover, speed reloads, and on an on ... These are quick examples of things conpetition shooters do that have a much higher chance of creating a bad habit than taking your time to reholster. In addition, speed reholstering itself is a range scar! It is a bad habit that good instructors try to correct in students.
The thing you are not getting is that even if you're ice under game pressure, unfortunate things such as clothing of foreign objects can get caught in the trigger on reholster. And again, speed reholstering is not a skill, it is a bad habit. It is not something to brag about and it is tactically unsound.
Reholstering is a simple concept. You don't put your weapon away until the threats are verifiably gone in most cases (exceptions when dealing with a potential le response an you are in civilian attire but still there is no need to speed reholster, but you may choose to deliberately holster prior to seeking cover as running around with a gun could create more confusion and responding officers may think you are the shooter). So when you holster, you will have the benefit of time. Make sure your area is clear, move to cover if possible, and reholster deliberately making sure to sweep clothing away from the holster and thumb on the rear of the slide/hammer. Some instructors are dogmatic about not looking at the holster what reholstering. That is a good habit to maximize your sa but not an unbreakable rule as you shouldn't (usually) be reholstering unless the situation is resolved.
As to your hypothetical, I hate these novice games because in the real world, you figure it out as you go along. Hypotheticals are mostly a useless game unless used by an individual to visualize realistically (a good game if one has the ability to stay realistic). But here is my answer, IT DEPENDS. Depends on the nature of the fight an if u am expecting more threats, if I have buddies present, the extent of my injuries, etc... But no matter what the circumstance, I see no reason to jam the gun back in my holster. It literally take 2 seconds to deliberately reholster!!!
I will add that there are times when a person may, under pressure and without thinking, holster in a hurry without sacrificing proper tactics. Fir example, leo with gun drawn who is forced into a chase (I say if the bg warranted a gun pulled in him, run with gun in hand but sop's vary), an active shooter response from someone in civilian attire who doesn't want to be confused as the shooter (my opinion, you still take a second or two to holster), etc... I still see no reason to speed reholster but it may happen. When it does however, years of proper manipulation will decreases the chance of an ad. But, although unlikely, a piece of clothing or kit could still get into the trigger guard and cause a boom. So this "method" is still unsafe in my opinion.
But for 99% of situations where you draw your gun, it is BOTH unsafe AND bad tactics to speed reholster. I am sorry if I came across as rude in my previous comment but it seems to me that you have made decisions on tactics based on your competition experience and that is a mistake IMHO.
I typed way more than I had planned and I don't have the patience to edit this on my phone. Sorry for the rough an somewhat rambling response.
sboza-
I'm not sure if we have a disconnect here. I have never advocated "speed reholstering", only holstering as fast as safe when necessary. As I wrote to Alaskapopo(Pat) my issue is more about the requirement during most comps to clear and abandon the weapon, rather than to make it safe and retain it e.g. holster or sling it.
As for our club, doing the things you outlined here "Rushing from target to target, improper use of cover" will get you hammered with penalities and discarding a weapon is a DQ.
We have talked many times about discarding timed scoring completely and just concentrating on doing things correctly or a real life as possible and in that vein I am never gonna clear and discard a functional weapon at any point in the real world. That said when folks are paying to shoot you have to provide them some kind of performance metric so time is what we are stuck with.
In the end we may just be at opposite points and we will have to disagree, but I have enjoyed the exchange.
First off, kudos to you guys who leapt into action to the wounded man's aid. Ass-chewings and AAR's can mop up the details later, but when it all went wrong for him, sounds like y'all did it RIGHT for him.
That said, I'm gonna stand with Shawn on this one. Having had to retrain/replace my OLD guy, 20-year-out-of-date fundamentals under his tutelage (and others) these past couple of years, the emphasis has all been on the SLOW/SECURE re-holster.
From a self-defense standpoint, when all is TRULY clear, then you can smoke 'em if ya' got 'em, clear the pistol as necessary, RE-holster, and wait for the police to come file a report. If you're gaming on a range, so be it. I don't run 3-gun, so I like the way Shawn's taught me - especially as a 1911 guy!
Keep us posted on how this affects your range/competition rules. Since - thankfully - AD/ND's seem rare among us, I think it will be helpful to examine the "lessons learned" in the aftermath of this incident.
Wouldn't that be tac reload and reholster as necessary??:D
Alaskapopo
05-05-12, 01:32
Taking speed out of the competition is more dangerous than allowing bad tactics. People will shoot as slow as possible within the allowed time I see it with our quals. This is not good because in real life the one who cuts meat first generally wins.
Pat
Taking speed out of the competition is more dangerous than allowing bad tactics. People will shoot as slow as possible within the allowed time I see it with our quals. This is not good because in real life the one who cuts meat first generally wins.
Pat
I don't think anyone is advocating drawing slowly. The issue has been reholstering.
Alaskapopo
05-05-12, 01:52
I don't think anyone is advocating drawing slowly. The issue has been reholstering.
I agree. I thought I saw a poster saying that they were going to do away with timed competitions at their club and only focus on accuracy. I feel that is a bad way to go based on personal experience.
Pat
Alaskapopo-
I talked about removing the time component to get folks to do it correctly, rather than gaming it to do it faster. Ideally we like folks only go as fast as they can safely. Unfortunately there is no way to remove the time component and still have a comp. for much the reasons you posted.
Robb Jensen
05-05-12, 11:23
I know where this match was and shoot it a few times a year.
Honestly I think no one should ever have holster a loaded pistol "on the clock". Sometimes "big boy rules" just isn't wise.
Many people poo-poo USPSA multi-gun rules but they are generally much safer by design.
The_War_Wagon
05-05-12, 12:28
Wouldn't that be tac reload and reholster as necessary??:D
ZING! For the win! :cool:
I know where this match was and shoot it a few times a year.
Honestly I think no one should ever have holster a loaded pistol "on the clock". Sometimes "big boy rules" just isn't wise.
Many people poo-poo USPSA multi-gun rules but they are generally much safer by design.
Robb-
I have no agruement that the USPSA multi-gun are safe, I just think they work to the lowest common denominator and for that game that is they way they need to be.
I just maintain all out speed games, with no practical use of cover, proper tactics, ammo or weapon management does shooters who don't understand the difference between how things play out in the game and the real world a disservice.
Looking back over this thread, I am a firm belieiver that the the guy who got tagged was completely and utterly at fault, not the rules or the design of the game he was shooting. In the end he was not in control of his actions and failed the 4 rules.
Robb Jensen
05-05-12, 20:12
Robb-
I have no agruement that the USPSA multi-gun are safe, I just think they work to the lowest common denominator and for that game that is they way they need to be.
I just maintain all out speed games, with no practical use of cover, proper tactics, ammo or weapon management does shooters who don't understand the difference between how things play out in the game and the real world a disservice.
Looking back over this thread, I am a firm belieiver that the the guy who got tagged was completely and utterly at fault, not the rules or the design of the game he was shooting. In the end he was not in control of his actions and failed the 4 rules.
They pretty much have to be.
I also think that certain holsters are "less" safe and more prone to ADs/NDs. Some guys show up with Gun Show special thigh rigs that are half way down they're lower legs etc. Serpas are now banned by a few local PDs for such reasons. You can't always teach common sense or know the skill set of the individuals competing....so there are rules.
Was training with JD / Northern Red today and on a string of fire noticing a fast reholster he asked the class:
"Anyone here know how fast Billy the Kid's reholster was?............. no........ no......... nobody ? yeah, cause it doesnt matter ! "
made me think of this thread :)
Robb Jensen
05-05-12, 21:25
Exactly Shawn!
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