View Full Version : Am I rushing things?
I wanted to get M4C's thoughts on whether I'm rushing the purchase of a few bits for my new AR. Specifically, a Troy Delta rail and Aimpoint PRO.
Two weeks ago, I received my first AR, a Colt 6920 with Magpul furniture. Heeding the advice I'd read so often on M4C, I didn't make any modifications or purchases initially, but did spend time on the range putting ~500 rounds through it in the first two weeks. The rifle is to be deployed as a backup HD firearm and range plinker.
Since receiving the rifle, I've purchased a VCAS padded sling and a QD adapter that puts the rear attachment point just aft of the receiver. The front attachment point is still the pinned sling mount on the FSB.
I'm looking at getting the Troy Delta rail to help me get a longer grip on the rifle. With the Magpul carbine-length handguard, my weak hand feels too compressed and it's rather uncomfortable. I find myself holding the grip at the very end, and even there I'm not totally comfortable. Not to mention it gets pretty hot gripping right at the FSB.
The Aimpoint PRO I've identified as a good entry-level optic that will do what I need in a HD setting without breaking the bank. Plus it comes with a functional mount.
Many have said not to jump in to the AR game and start sticking stuff on the gun. Am I getting overly excited and toeing that line too closely? Should I take a step back, stick with the MOE furniture and iron sights, and just chill for a bit?
Sounds like you're thinking this through, just buy what you actually think will make you a better shooter. Good luck and good training.
What weapon is this playing backup for in HD? I ask because if you use a weapon light on that gun you might one one on this rifle for consistency.
Guns-up.50
05-03-12, 12:00
If you are familiar with the platform already I wouldnt see any problems 1, either way putting a new rail on sould not be a problem 2, Many newer shooters will jump on the optic train and have little to no idea how th use their irons, if this is you I would reccomend learning the basics, then getting your aimpoint. optics fail w/o knowledege of your irons you will be in a shit sandwhich.
Many will recomend you get some ammo and training. In the end of the day its your rifle have it how you would like
p.s: I am a regular guy not a sme so take this as you will.
What weapon is this playing backup for in HD? I ask because if you use a weapon light on that gun you might one one on this rifle for consistency.
That's an excellent point. It's playing backup to a suppressed 9mm, and realistically I'd deploy it only in the most dire circumstances as I'm very concerned about hearing loss for my family and dogs.
Sourcing a WML for the AR is now also on my list.
...Many newer shooters will jump on the optic train and have little to no idea how th use their irons, if this is you I would reccomend learning the basics, then getting your aimpoint. optics fail w/o knowledege of your irons you will be in a shit sandwhich.
You make an excellent point. I'm comfortable enough with the irons to consistently hit a 3x5" index card at 150' (the furthest distance at my range), but that's under ideal conditions. I view the Aimpoint as an tool to enhance my capability, but nothing to be absolutely relied upon.
I wanted to get M4C's thoughts on whether I'm rushing the purchase of a few bits for my new AR. Specifically, a Troy Delta rail and Aimpoint PRO.
Two weeks ago, I received my first AR, a Colt 6920 with Magpul furniture. Heeding the advice I'd read so often on M4C, I didn't make any modifications or purchases initially, but did spend time on the range putting ~500 rounds through it in the first two weeks. The rifle is to be deployed as a backup HD firearm and range plinker.
Since receiving the rifle, I've purchased a VCAS padded sling and a QD adapter that puts the rear attachment point just aft of the receiver. The front attachment point is still the pinned sling mount on the FSB.
I'm looking at getting the Troy Delta rail to help me get a longer grip on the rifle. With the Magpul carbine-length handguard, my weak hand feels too compressed and it's rather uncomfortable. I find myself holding the grip at the very end, and even there I'm not totally comfortable. Not to mention it gets pretty hot gripping right at the FSB.
The Aimpoint PRO I've identified as a good entry-level optic that will do what I need in a HD setting without breaking the bank. Plus it comes with a functional mount.
Many have said not to jump in to the AR game and start sticking stuff on the gun. Am I getting overly excited and toeing that line too closely? Should I take a step back, stick with the MOE furniture and iron sights, and just chill for a bit?
Are you new to shooting on the AR platform.
Are you/your family facing any imminent hd/personal safety threats?
What are your goals with the AR platform?
If you can answer these, it will be easier for me to make a suggestion. Sending 500 rounds down range can mean anything from nothing to a full day of organized and planned shooting drills in which every bullet has a purpose. And hitting an index card at 50 yards can mean as little as you have decent trigger control and are capable of obtaining decent sight alignment and picture. So more info about you would be very useful in suggesting a course of action.
ETA - I was just coming back to edit this in but ASH556 already hit it. Try extending the stock out.
The Aimpoint is definitely a useful tool. I see no reason not to have one if you can afford it.
RE the rail, you could extend your stock to achieve a longer reach for your support hand if you're feeling cramped. There's nothing wrong with a longer handguard either, but I'm simply pointing out that it's not the only solution.
Are you new to shooting on the AR platform.
Are you/your family facing any imminent hd/personal safety threats?
What are your goals with the AR platform?
If you can answer these, it will be easier for me to make a suggestion. Sending 500 rounds down range can mean anything from nothing to a full day of organized and planned shooting drills in which every bullet has a purpose. And hitting an index card at 50 yards can mean as little as you have decent trigger control and are capable of obtaining a decent sight alignment and picture. So more info about you would be very useful in suggesting a course of action.
sboza,
Thanks for taking the time to respond, I really appreciate it. My responses below:
I am new to shooting the AR platform. The Colt is my first AR. The whole of my previous shooting experience is with handguns.
There is one specific, but low-probability, threat. There's also the general (but also low-probability) threat of the MS-13 presence just across the highway from us. Neither of these threats give me nightmares and we've taken steps to ensure we have early warning of anyone who gets too close to the house.
My goal with the platform is to develop a rifle that can reliably stop a threat that my handgun can't.
I purchased the rifle for two reasons: 1) Uncertainty about my ability to do so in the future as a result of regulatory restrictions; 2) Worst-case scenario planning.
Thanks again for the input, I really appreciate it!
You are thinking it out and have reasons for your purchases. I think most of us just don't want to see the brand new shooter to buy a bunch of expensive cool guy stuff because that is what they think they need. Just don't be that guy, it will save you time, frustration and money. :D
ETA - I was just coming back to edit this in but ASH556 already hit it. Try extending the stock out.
RE the rail, you could extend your stock to achieve a longer reach for your support hand if you're feeling cramped. There's nothing wrong with a longer handguard either, but I'm simply pointing out that it's not the only solution.
The stock is already at its outermost position :)
The stock is already at its outermost position :)
What's yout stance look like?
The Aimpoint PRO I've identified as a good entry-level optic
Very good optic. Entry level on price, professional grade on quality.
What's yout stance look like?
I don't have any photos, but I would describe it as 85-90% squared off. I guess in pistol shooting you'd refer to it as "modified isosceles" where the toe of my strong-side foot is just about even with the heel of my weak-side foot.
sboza,
Thanks for taking the time to respond, I really appreciate it. My responses below:
I am new to shooting the AR platform. The Colt is my first AR. The whole of my previous shooting experience is with handguns.
There is one specific, but low-probability, threat. There's also the general (but also low-probability) threat of the MS-13 presence just across the highway from us. Neither of these threats give me nightmares and we've taken steps to ensure we have early warning of anyone who gets too close to the house.
My goal with the platform is to develop a rifle that can reliably stop a threat that my handgun can't.
I purchased the rifle for two reasons: 1) Uncertainty about my ability to do so in the future as a result of regulatory restrictions; 2) Worst-case scenario planning.
Thanks again for the input, I really appreciate it!
Since you are a new ar shooter and I infer that you want to become proficient , I would normally suggest taking the $600-700 you would save by not buying the rail and optic and attending a 2 day carbine class. This will give you a firm base of fundamentals and prevent you from developing, and then having to break, bad habits. I often see new students, who have not been corrupted by bad habits, quickly outperform guys who have been "shooting all my life." Going to a class like this with irons is just fine and in my opinion, preferable if there is no urgency.
If you felt there are significant threats to your home/family, I would have suggested to strengthen your home defenses (locks, lights, cameras, etc...) first. That said, under those circumstances, I would say go with the optic as it is quicker to learn and the priority is not to develop solid fundamentals when there is a threat to you and your loved ones. So you know, a light is absolutely essential on a carbine used for any defensive application. You have to be able to id the threat. Light before anything else.
However, since you have perceived low level threats, the decision is really up to you. I would lean toward a 2 day carbine class over the optic and rail as the threat level is low and you already have a pistol (I assume) for hd with which it sounds you are proficient. Do research or wait until your class to fit a light in a way that you can activate it without fumbling and minimally, if at all, shifting your grip.
As for the rail and optic you are looking at, I think you have done your research and have come up with good picks. The only thing you have to do now is determine your priority based on the entirety of your circumstances.
Good luck.
I don't have any photos, but I would describe it as 85-90% squared off. I guess in pistol shooting you'd refer to it as "modified isosceles" where the toe of my strong-side foot is just about even with the heel of my weak-side foot.
Meh, sounds about right. Get a longer handguard. Nothing wrong with adding gear when you know WHY you're adding it.
(snipped for brevity)
sboza,
Solid advice--thank you for the thorough response!
polymorpheous
05-03-12, 13:20
If this rifle is to have a role as a defensive weapon, even if only a back up, it needs a light and a red dot optic and also a quality sling.
Your main defensive weapon, the suppressed 9mm, does it have a light mounted on it?
Your main defensive weapon, the suppressed 9mm, does it have a light mounted on it?
Affirmative
Just make sure you're actually getting what you need/want. A free floating rail is never a bad idea.
In all honesty, if you continue to read these forums, do your research, and do a lot of shooting for the next 30 days or so -- I'm betting you'll have a different 'list' of wants & needs for your new baby, perhaps will even scratch some things off the 'list'.
That being said..... Free floating rail and an Aimpoint you really can't go wrong with though :D:D
There's nothing wrong purchasing the pro now for its intended usage. You still need to learn and practice with irons. If you haven't purchased it yet I'd recommend a H1 though and he off on the rail for now.
i'd go for H1 or T1 if you can spend a lil more.
Why the H1 or T1 over the PRO?
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i'd go for H1 or T1 if you can spend a lil more.
This borders on ignorant. For the OP's intended usage, the pro is just fine. He has obviously taken his needs and budget into account in his decision making. The only benefit of a micro is saving a few ounces. And a t1 is an absolute bad suggestion since the op obviously isn't donning nods and doing night assaults.
OP, plenty of folks in and out of le use the pro. It is more than rugged enough for any conus application, it is more affordable, and at the end of the day, it is still an aimpoint. If you go down the optic and rail path (rather than a carbine class), there is nothing wrong with the pro. Someday, when you have a second rifle and know how you want to configure it, you can buy all the fancy and "cool" kid stuff you want.
There is nothing I can stand less than a dude with top dollar equipment who shoots like a tool and trust me, they are all over the place. I think you have a good set of priorities and an open mind. Just remember that while this forum is full of knowledgable folks, there are still people you need to filter out. Especially when they don't explain their position and don't take your situation into consideration in their analysis.
Take care.
Why the H1 or T1 over the PRO?
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The Micros are smaller and lighter, but a bit pricier. The H1 negates some of that difference, and some of the package deals with the H1/Mount combos are really impressive. Nothing wrong with the PRO, especially since it has a bigger lens, if it's for HD and range work, the PRO may be a better choice cost aside, otherwise the smaller, lighter, cuter micro line is worth a look... I'd hold off because:
You've made solid choices thus far (6920, VCAS, putting 500 rounds through it) and already saved yourself significant headache. A red dot and quality WML are indeed next, but choosing which is best can be difficult.
I'd mirror the suggestion to take it to a class - it needn't be world renown instruction, but somewhere to be pushed and educated on running the gun, and that will be extremely instructive about which direction makes sense for you to go completing the rifle, not to mention improve your ability to use it.
polymorpheous
05-03-12, 21:34
The PRO over the Micro series for home defense IMO.
Larger field of view.
Why the H1 or T1 over the PRO?
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T-1's only advantage over the PRO is lighter weight. The smaller tube can make for a bigger disadvantage. I would certainly skip the substantially greater price tag and go with the PRO.
T-1's only advantage over the PRO is lighter weight. The smaller tube can make for a bigger disadvantage. I would certainly skip the substantially greater price tag and go with the PRO.
I have a lot of time on the rifle and I shoot with irons enough (and my irons cowitness bottom 1/3) that when I get shoot with my t1, my dot lines up where it should almost every time. With the t1 and full kit including gas mask, sometimes I notice that the dot rides a bit higher (different cheek weld of course) but it's a nonissue. Shooting around and under cover and vehicles has not been an issue either.
Now, this may be a bit different for the new shooter who doesn't have as much consistency and fundamentals development but there is a simple cheat. I run a comp m4 (similar field of view to the pro) forward on the upper and the t1 close to my rear buis. This makes up for the decreased fov. I know a lot of guys who do this and it's not actually cheating, I think it's a smart way to run the micro when away from a square range.
Not being argumentative, I just find that a lot of people make a big deal out of the smaller fov with the micro's but in my experience, with proper placement, it is a nonissue.
This is a bit of an offtopic. I am of course in agreement with you folks that the pro is the better option for the OP's circumstances.
bsmith_shoot
05-03-12, 23:17
I think youve made a wise and informed decision OP. The Pro is a super-solid optic, that will serve you faithfully for years. The rail system will tailor the weapon to fit you more comfortably, being more efficient, and will allow for mounting that much needed white light. I cant see any problems with the route your going, but I will make a reccomendation, get formal training. With training, that 6920 might replace that 9mm as your primary HD weapon.
Brandon
Personally, I'd wait on the longer handguard until you've had time to take a class or two. You'll be amazed at your priorities after taking a class.
As for the PRO, it's one of the few things I recommend getting before a class. You can't go wrong with the PRO. I use a T1, but only because I was going for ultra lightweight and found a used one very cheap. Otherwise, I would have gone with the PRO.
As for the smaller/bigger field of view. It's NOT an issue. I've used both and for the life of me don't know where people get this from. When used with both eyes open, I never notice the tube at all. It's like the dot is just on the target and the tube disappears. Either that or my focus is where it should be and my mind chooses not to notice the tube. I don't know, but either way, don't sweat it. The PRO is an awesome optic at a great price. Get it.
Get to a class.
One of the benefits of a training class is that you can see other people's setups and often try them too. What if the Alpha flexes in a way that you're not happy with but a 4-rail handguard doesn't? What if it turns out you like the Eotech reticule so much that you're willing to deal with the battery life issue? What if your stance is all ****ed up and fixing it makes the handguard issue go away entirely?
At the beginner level with the AR, I would not be buying ANYTHING based solely on what I see on the internets. Once you have more experience you can look at the specs for an item as well as things like the way it mounts and better evaluate if you think it will work for you based on prior experience with similar items, but if you're just starting out you want to get more hands-on before making purchases.
Get to a class.
One of the benefits of a training class is that you can see other people's setups and often try them too. What if the Alpha flexes in a way that you're not happy with but a 4-rail handguard doesn't? What if it turns out you like the Eotech reticule so much that you're willing to deal with the battery life issue? What if your stance is all ****ed up and fixing it makes the handguard issue go away entirely?
At the beginner level with the AR, I would not be buying ANYTHING based solely on what I see on the internets. Once you have more experience you can look at the specs for an item as well as things like the way it mounts and better evaluate if you think it will work for you based on prior experience with similar items, but if you're just starting out you want to get more hands-on before making purchases.
Rob,
Normally I'd find myself agreeing with you. But in the case of the EoTech, I just can't. I'm one of those guys who's loves the reticle of the EoTech. But with their battery issues and durability issues, I won't use one and therefore cannot in good conscious (I never know how to spell that ****ing word) recommend one.
In my mind, that leaves one viable option for a non-magnified optic on a carbine. Aimpoint. And of their available models, the PRO is just plain awesome for the price.
Rob,
Normally I'd find myself agreeing with you. But in the case of the EoTech, I just can't. I'm one of those guys who's loves the reticle of the EoTech. But with their battery issues and durability issues, I won't use one and therefore cannot in good conscious (I never know how to spell that ****ing word) recommend one.
In my mind, that leaves one viable option for a non-magnified optic on a carbine. Aimpoint. And of their available models, the PRO is just plain awesome for the price.
Let's not get mire in minutiae, or take one example out of three and use it to derail a thread. It's an example. Everyone has to make their own choices. The point here is that someone new to the AR has no way of making those choices without first-hand experience. Reading on the internet is not "research".
Let's not get mire in minutiae, or take one example out of three and use it to derail a thread. It's an example. Everyone has to make their own choices. The point here is that someone new to the AR has no way of making those choices without first-hand experience. Reading on the internet is not "research".
Point taken. And agreed. Again. :cool:
Thanks to everyone for their thoughtful input.
A carbine class is next on my "personal education" list, but I have a kid due in July and I've no idea when I'll have the time to pull myself away for a weekend.
I really do appreciate everyone who has shared their thoughts--thank you!
vicious_cb
05-04-12, 07:16
I disagree with holding off on the PRO, if you can afford it get it. I dont buy the 'you must master irons first' way of thinking. Should you be proficient with irons? Yes. Should you give up having a superior sighting system NOW in order to practice what is basically a secondary sighting system? No.
I disagree with holding off on the PRO, if you can afford it get it. I dont buy the 'you must master irons first' way of thinking. Should you be proficient with irons? Yes. Should you give up having a superior sighting system NOW in order to practice what is basically a secondary sighting system? No.
I agree, but if there's a financial constraint (and when is there not?) I'd take a class over a PRO.
I've done enough testing on a clock and on targets with a variety of shooters to know that a competent shooter with irons will smoke a newb with an optic all day, every day.
The key to irons is learning the tricks to running them well and fast when needed. For that you need a pretty dialed-in instructor.
and FWIW, I wouldn't consider any gun viable for defense without training on it. I hear all the time "yeah, I'd like to get a class with the same money as the optic, but the optic will help me in a defensive situation". The optic alone with no training is not going to help you. You're better off with a light and putting 30 rounds into the spot at HD distances if you're not going to get training.
vicious_cb
05-04-12, 07:34
I agree, but if there's a financial constraint (and when is there not?) I'd take a class over a PRO.
I've done enough testing on a clock and on targets with a variety of shooters to know that a competent shooter with irons will smoke a newb with an optic all day, every day.
The key to irons is learning the tricks to running them well and fast when needed. For that you need a pretty dialed-in instructor.
and FWIW, I wouldn't consider any gun viable for defense without training on it. I hear all the time "yeah, I'd like to get a class with the same money as the optic, but the optic will help me in a defensive situation". The optic alone with no training is not going to help you. You're better off with a light and putting 30 rounds into the spot at HD distances if you're not going to get training.
Agreed, proper instruction and trigger time trump gear every time.
100% agreement with the need for instruction.
We've got a baby due in July. When the time avails itself, I'll register for a carbine class.
The_War_Wagon
05-04-12, 07:41
Let's not get mire in minutiae, or take one example out of three and use it to derail a thread. It's an example. Everyone has to make their own choices. The point here is that someone new to the AR has no way of making those choices without first-hand experience. Reading on the internet is not "research".
Rob's point is well taken. I plopped a pricey EOTech 557 on my rifle, for some 1 on 1 mentoring. Turns out, with my astigmatism, the EOTech reticle - in ALL its incarnations - didn't work for me, and I was out a LOTTA bucks on that optic.
I switch to a Trijicon Reflex, which served me fine in a couple of PA/OH/WV Study Group get-togethers, BEFORE I got new glasses, which is what I REALLY NEEDED all along. I have my new bifocals, and NOW I run Aimpoints (including the T-1 and the Pro). All told, 3 different optics was a LOT more expensive than bifocals. If I'd gotten new glasses first, I'd of saved myself a LOT of time, trouble, and expense.
It took getting TRAINING, to figure that out.
Get thee to a course, a good M4C mentor, or the LIKE, before getting anything MORE complicated than the Aimpoint Pro!!!
BD, ultimately, buy the ammo and the training before you buy Stuff.
You were a help in my shift to AIWB for pistol; I'd like to reciprocate. You know I'm reasonably local and we shoot at the same place, dude. If you like, we can meet up and you can toss some beans through my carbines AND your own to do a bit of side-by-side in terms of irons, different Aimpoints, EOTech, railed and tube FF forearms.
You could get a "feel" for any differences and make a more informed decision on which Stuff you may want to get...AFTER you get some formal instruction to help make your final decisions.
Lemme know.
BD, ultimately, buy the ammo and the training before you buy Stuff.
You were a help in my shift to AIWB for pistol; I'd like to reciprocate. You know I'm reasonably local and we shoot at the same place, dude. If you like, we can meet up and you can toss some beans through my carbines AND your own to do a bit of side-by-side in terms of irons, different Aimpoints, EOTech, railed and tube FF forearms.
You could get a "feel" for any differences and make a more informed decision on which Stuff you may want to get...AFTER you get some formal instruction to help make your final decisions.
Lemme know.
BD, take him up on this.
BD, ultimately, buy the ammo and the training before you buy Stuff.
You were a help in my shift to AIWB for pistol; I'd like to reciprocate. You know I'm reasonably local and we shoot at the same place, dude. If you like, we can meet up and you can toss some beans through my carbines AND your own to do a bit of side-by-side in terms of irons, different Aimpoints, EOTech, railed and tube FF forearms.
You could get a "feel" for any differences and make a more informed decision on which Stuff you may want to get...AFTER you get some formal instruction to help make your final decisions.
Lemme know.
J,
Thanks for the great offer--will definitely take you up on this. I'll send a PM to see when we cross paths next.
This is why M4C is so great. :)
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