VFG placement on the rail Q's [Archive]

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MH64

01-08-08, 09:49

OK guys, for those that do use a vertical fore grip, where do you place it on the rail and why?

I tend to run one at the back of my rail near the magwell. Its just comfortable there.

C4IGrant

01-08-08, 10:08

OK guys, for those that do use a vertical fore grip, where do you place it on the rail and why?

I tend to run one at the back of my rail near the magwell. Its just comfortable there.

I ran mine towards the front for many years. I then removed it and found that I shot better and faster.

C4

JTrusty

01-08-08, 10:45

OK guys, for those that do use a vertical fore grip, where do you place it on the rail and why?

http://photos.gearsector.com/galleries/Carbine%20Images/dd18.jpg

Its simply a matter of what works best for you. The optimal position is the position where it improves balance and control of the weapon
without impeding function. If a vertical grip doesn't achieve these performance increases for you, you might want to rethink why you have
one on your weapon.

I have always shot with my support hand on the magwell. I never saw a reason to make the move to a VFG. However, with the emergence
of adjustable two point slings I had to rethink my position on the VFG vs. magwell hold.

What you don't want is multiple pieces of gear fighting one another or a piece of gear making you uncomfortable while controlling the
weapon. With the forward mounting point of my sling setup closest to the barrel nut, I was no longer comfortable with a magwell hold.
However, this was the optimal setup for the two point. I opted to try a VFG.

After a bit of research, I settled on the Bobro VFG. It goes on quick and locks up tight. Very tight! I played around with positioning until I
was as comfortable with the VFG as I was with my preferred magwell hold.

rob_s

01-08-08, 11:07

My lights, and the way I hold the grip, dictate my VFG position for the most part.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Both-01.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/071216EAGcarbine.jpg

MH64

01-08-08, 12:17

rob_s

01-08-08, 12:27

Bought the standard before the stubby was available, and the standard will hold a spare bolt.

If I were building those two guns today they would both have the Magpul MIAD grip and I could stow the bolt in there on the brown gun.

KevinB

01-08-08, 13:06

Out front -- it helps for follow up shots - and retensions issues.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Afghan%20Take%20II/kevrightside.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Iraq/Sharingthelove.jpg

Also for somethings that are not condusive to a vert grip hold it gives me room to shrink back and use the magwell or support the early portion of the handguard

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Magpul%20PMAG%20test/Iraq-Range26May041.jpg

USMC03

01-08-08, 14:21

Years ago I started with the vertical foregrip all the way to the rear (closest to the magwell). Over the years the vertical foregrips on my gun have made a slow but continual move toward the front sight post. I now run my vertical foregrip all the way forward on a carbine length rail (closest to the front sight tower:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Colt%20with%20Aimpoint/Colt5.jpg?t=1199822527

I had tried moving the vertical foregrip all the way forward several times over the last couple years and it never worked well for me. I tried it again about 6 months ago and it finally "clicked".

With the vertical foregrip all the way forward I found that I had better control of the gun, could transition from target to target faster, I could pull the gun into my shoulder better, my support arm didn't fatigue as quick, and just felt better (once I got use to having the VFG all the way forward on a 7.0 rail).

**************************************************************

Copied my response from a simular post:

I have found that the magwell hold or having the vertical foregrip toward the delta ring places the center of gravity too far to the rear.

I have moved all of my vertical foregrips all the way to the front of the rail (closest to the front sight tower) on a standard 7.0 carbine rail.

Kind of hard to explain this via a written message but here goes:

Think of your carbine like a board that is supported at one end (the "supported end" of the carbine would be the end of the stock - supported by your shoulder). If you wanted the best control over the board when moving it up and down and left to right where would you want to put the support? Would you want it close to the end that is already supported, in the middle, or as close as you can get it to the unsupported end?

Obviously you would want to get the second point of support as close to the end of the board that is not being supported as possible.

Moving the hand or vertical foregrip as close as you can get it to the unsupported end of the gun (ie. the muzzle) provides the best level of support and also helps you drive and control the gun much better.

With the vertical foregrip I'm constantly pushing rearward on the vertical foregrip, thus providing constant rearward pressure into my shoulder.

When I'm NOT using a vertical foregrip, I wrap my hand around the handguard (like you would wrap your hand around any cylinder shaped object), with my index finger pointing in the same direction as the muzzle (resting on the 9 o'clock rail).

With my hand in this position I can provide constant rearward pressure into my shoulder. Having my hand in this position provides much more control and I can drive the gun much better and stop on a target without overshooting it and having to come back to it. I have noticed that when I have my hand closer to the delta ring that I can't stop the gun as quickly when transitioning from one target to another at medium to long distances and often over shoot or go past the target and have to come back to it.

Here is a visual of how I hold the gun without a vertical foregrip and can provide constant rearward pressure and have much better control:

http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/smaller/D461_9146_img.jpg
Larger version of above photo. (http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/medium/D461_9146_img.jpg)

Semper Fi,
Jeff

Another reply:

This year I trained with both Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers, and have trained with several other trainers over the years. Each trainer has a different background and different reasons why they choose the gear they choose.

I choose my gear based on my personal experiences and what works best for me. Something that needs some consideration: my mission and the gear that I carry may be drastically different than the trainer that I'm training under.

It has been said by men much smarter and much more experience than me: "The mission drives the gear" (the gear doesn't drive or direct the mission).

I copied my reply from another thread as to why and when *I* use a vertical foregrip:

(the quote was written by the guy that started the discussion, my reply is under his quote)

Originally posted by xxx_x:

I learned in architecture school that the only way you can truly evaluate whether a design, or "solution", is successful is to know what the intent was at the beginning. "Form follows function", if you will. In other words, if a thing looks stupid but it does what it is supposed to do and does it very well, it's not stupid.

Brown Rifle

The goal is to be able to hit a man-sized target out to 200 yards and have enough energy at that range for the bullet used to terminally perform properly. Ideally it would also be capable of making shots with even greater precision if required. This rifle is intended to be a "general purpose" rifle (as much as that is possible) or could be thought of as a "field" rifle.

Brown Rifle

Trijicon TA33R-8 (http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/products1.cfm?PartID=557&back_row=2&categoryID=3).

3x30, 7 oz., red chevron ranging reticle calibrated for .223 and 1.9" of eye relief.

The 3x is nice to have when reaching out a little further.

Vertical Foregrip

There is a move lately to eliminate the vertical foregrip for some shooters. Many of the 3-Gun shooters have gotten away from it.

(Start of my reply):

Xxx,

Excellent write up of what you use and why you use it. VERY well thought out!!!

I quoted only parts of your thread (use of vertical foregrips). I love vertical foregrips. That being said, within the last year or so I have found that they are not the answer for *every situation*.

For several years I ran a vertical foregrip on ALL my AR15's. Like you I shoot a lot of matches. Matches / competition is a great way to test out your gear and learn new lessons / skills about your gun, your accessories, your optic, and you as a marksman.

As you pointed out: "Form follows function" AND "the only way you can truly evaluate whether a design, or "solution", is successful is to know what the intent was at the beginning"

For years I looked down on 3-gunners and competition shooter as just being "gamers". Then I started to learn that there were things that I could learn from the 3 - gun / competition shooter. Many of 3-gunners / competition shooters have excellent weapons handling skills and excellent speed.

As a group, 3-gunners have to be the largest group of guys that truely believe in the "if a thing looks stupid but it does what it is supposed to do and does it very well, it's not stupid" mind set.

I really started to pay attention to the "Gamers" or competion shooters at matches (the guys with no Military / Law Enforcement / Tactical Shooting background) and noticed how fast some of them were with the rifle.

I noticed that none of them used vertical foregrips and all of them gripped the forend and extended their index finger (pointing it at the target). I notice how fast their transitions from target to target were and how they could stop the gun on a dime when transitioning from one target to another.

I knew there had to be a reason these guys were not using vertial foregrips on their rifles for medium to long range rifle shooting.

I figured that I would try shooting a match without a vertical foregrip on my mid-length that had a TA-11 ACOG mounted on it to see if I shot any better without the vertical foregrip.

The monthly rifle match I shoot has targets from distances of 1 yard out to 425 yards. I IMMEDATELY noticed how much better I shot and how much more comfortable I was WITHOUT the vertical forgrip when using the 3.5x ACOG.

I found that I could drive the gun much faster, transition from target to target and stop on a dime, had an easier time steadying the gun on a barricade, was able to pull the gun in tighter to my shoulder, was more steady with the gun off hand and unsupported positions, etc.

My reply from another post on the same subject:

After much trial and error, I have come to the following conclusion: -Guns that I do a lot of CQB work with I prefer the vertical foregrip. The vertical foregrip helps me "drive" the gun on closer targets, is more ergonomical for accessing a weapon mounted light, gives more power on muzzle strikes and weapon retention, etc.

On guns that I do a lot of *long range shooting* with, I prefer NO vertical foregrip, because I can steady the gun much better on longer shots without the vertical foregrip. The lack of a vertical foregrip also helps me drive and stop the gun better when transitioning from one target to another at longer distances, and has an advantage on barricades, etc. The rifle match has 75%+ of the targets placed from 100 yards to 425 yards.

Something that I noticed when using a vertical foregrip and long range targets....when I would transition from one target to another, I would always pass the target I was transitioning to and have to come back to it (ie. I would "over shoot" or by pass the target).

I don't know why, but on close targets I can drive the gun and stop on a dime at close distances....but at long range targets, I would always pass the target and have to come back to it.

Without a vertical foregrip, I can stop on a dime when transitioning from one target to another at longer distances. Without a vertical foregrip, I wrap my hand round the forend and point my index finger in the same direction as the muzzle (index finger is pointing forward along the 9 o'clock rail) Example: demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/PRM-2006.11/?small=D100_5707_img.jpg

On my guns that have ACOG's, Leupold MR/T 1.5-5x M2's, (guns set up for medium to long range shooting) I have removed the vertical foregrips and run just the LaRue handguard and Tango Down pannels.

On my guns with Aimpoints / Short Dots (work guns or guns set up for close to medium range shooting), I still run the vertical foregrips.

Distance = time. Time affords you the ability to get into more stable positions (ie. sitting, prone, braced kneeling, the use of barricades, etc, etc.) In these position a vertical foregrip has no advantage, and can often get in the way. When most of your shots are closer and you are in the standing position or on the move, this is the area where the vertical foregrip shines. I guess it's all about selecting the right tool for the job. Just my opinion based on my personal experiences, as with all things, your milage may vary.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=5775

Just a suggestion: Try the brown gun without the vertical foregrip at a couple matches (medium to longer range matches) and see if it works for you. I found on my medium to long range guns (using a magnified optic like the ACOG 3.5x) that NOT using a vertical foregrip has a LOT of advantages an no disadvantages. YMMV

Take care and stay safe,

Semper Fi,
Jeff

rob_s

01-08-08, 14:29

Hey, xxx_x is me! :D

Rather than ditch the foregrip entirely, I've wound up settling on a sort of hybrid grip. What you can't see in the picture of me with the KAC gun is that on the other side of the rifle my support hand finger is pointing forward along the gap between the 9 o'clock and 6 o'clock rail covers and my thumb is nearly on top of the 9 o'clock cover. For me that hybrid kind of grip allows me to have the best of both worlds, and I can always slide my hand down further to get a better grip on the VFG if I think I need to.

At the end of the day though, facilities near me are limited and we really don't shoot much past 50, and are pretty much limited to 100 yards tops, so working on a grip that maximizes long-range accuracy isn't something I get to or need to work on.

ROSS4712

01-08-08, 15:05

I ran mine towards the front for many years. I then removed it and found that I shot better and faster.

C4

DITTO!!!!!!

I think most go with it for the CDI factor but when I ran it I ran it all the way to the rear as close to the mag well as I could get it.

MattC

01-08-08, 16:53

I run a Surefire M900 on my duty gun. I find that it works best when placed as close to the magwell as possible.

I think it is mostly a matter of personal preference. Try it out and see what works for you.

toddackerman

01-09-08, 17:35

I also ran one for 3 years, and got away from it because it didn't add anything (including speed) on follow up shots or increased recoil control. What it did do is get in the way at times with barricade shots, and longer range shooting positions.

I do agree that the left hand should be extended as far forward as possible. That IMO is where recoil control and "steer ability" is enhanced. My current grip on my 16" MRP is with the left hand all the way forward, left index finger on the 9:00 side pointing forward. My left thumb easily activates my light (which is all the way forward at 9:00.

I like this because it's the way I grip all of the other long guns I own.

USMC03

01-09-08, 18:13

toddackerman

01-09-08, 18:20

Is this something you learned on your own or regergitated info you have read? (inflection and tone is something that doesn't come across well on the in typed communications.....I'm not trying to be a dick, just asking a valid question).

-Jeff

First heard of the advantages in the "Written Word" (Grant after his LAV session, and posted here) and then and went to prove it for myself.

Don't worry...you're not a Dick! :)