View Full Version : Big Army says no more polymer mags
https://acc.dau.mil/CommunityBrowser.aspx?id=510851&lang=en-US
Benefit/Value
Issue: TACOM has become aware of units ordering 30 rd. commercial (i.e. polymer, etc.) magazines for their M4/M16 family of weapons. The M4/M16 Army authorized magazines are the following: NSN 1005-00-561-7200 (improved magazine) and NSN 1005-00-921-5004 (older magazine; use until exhaustion).
Rest of the story at the link. Don't think many people will listen to this until its strictly enforced, there's a lot of us using PMAGS in the army. Ill keep using them and my TangoDown mags until I'm forced to stop.
I thought black pmags had an NSN and were a approved for unit procurement? Is this a reversal decision?
Bravo Company has an NSN listed: http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Magpul-PMAG-AR15-Magazine-p/mag210%20black%20window.htm
ETA: Oh, I see. There are two acceptable mags for the Army. Pmags may have an NSN but the are just not approved by the Army, correct?
They do have a NSN, and a bunch of units have bought and issued them. TACOM is now putting out that the only mags listed as authorized in the -10 are the Army issued ones.
https://acc.dau.mil/CommunityBrowser.aspx?id=510851&lang=en-US
The M4/M16 Army authorized magazines are the following: NSN 1005-00-561-7200 (improved magazine) and NSN 1005-00-921-5004 (older magazine; use until exhaustion).
So what are these improved mags???
So what are these improved mags???
They're just the tan follower mags.
http://peosoldier.armylive.dodlive.mil/2009/12/14/armys-improved-magazine-increases-weapons-reliability-%E2%80%9Ctan-is-the-plan%E2%80%9D-for-the-new-magazine/
The Army has enough problems as it is. I don't understand why the Army would limit Soldiers from using the best equipment intentionally.
There are too many polymer magazines on the market and there are a lot of soldiers that only hear "polymer is better" and buy the cheapest out there. Tapco, Bulgarian, TD, PMAG, Lancer etc. Which one works and works best for combat use? Even here on this site, many prefer one over another. While companies claim that their product is "combat ready" that is a marketing term, not reality. By saying NO to polymer mags, that should make the USGI mag, which has worked since the beginning, the standard in the field. This is the first time in history that there has been so many accessories availiable for a fielded combat weapon. Sights, grips, foreends, magazines...etc and a way to put them in the hands of the troops. Many hang stuff on their weapon for no other reason to be like that other guy, so that must be better. Even in a rifle squad, damn near every rifle is outfitted different. Some have quality parts, some are complete crap. The Army is trying to to stop the flow of non standardized/tested magazines from getting into the hands of our Soldiers. Hope it works.
I think this is great news. Plain old GI mags work great. I'm so sick and tired of seeing pmag related stoppages and watching people look for issues with the gun instead of shitcanning their stupid plastic mags. I haven't messed with the ARC mags because for me they aren't a solution to a problem. My green and tan follower mags are all stellar performers.
This is actually a good move.
Typical dumb-assed big army decision.
Go for uniformity over function.
Just like trying to develop their own polymer mag even though the Pmag was already avalible.
As if the USGI mags don't have their fair share of problems.
Why don't they just do an IW type test of magazines and see which ones come out on top rather then forcing adherence to outdated requirements?
Only a matter of time until they start fining soldiers for using non-issued items on their guns and gear. That'll be a brilliant move of stupidity too. Just like this one.
Whatever.
PMAGs actually failed Army testing several years ago for the following reasons
1) rough handling at -60F causes damage/cracks in feed lip
2) immersion in MIL-L-46000 Lubricant Semi-Fluid Automatic Weapons - LAW and 804-01-284-3982; DEET Insect Repellent causes stress crazing/cracking
Beleive it or not people This is a good idea. I don't know were you get the information stating that usgi mags are prone to problems in comparison to Pmags, etc.
I'd rather have one of my guys buy it because his USGI mag crapped the bed than have the same with Pmag. At least I can blame Uncle Sam.
All kidding aside, I love my Pmags but always have a 1/2 dozen USGI mags on my side for when TSHTF. Proven to work is better than the cool factor, and given time sooner or later a polymer mag maker will meet the requirements for approval.
Steel is the way to go. "Go Fusil":D
PMAGs actually failed Army testing several years ago for the following reasons
1) rough handling at -60F causes damage/cracks in feed lip
2) immersion in MIL-L-46000 Lubricant Semi-Fluid Automatic Weapons - LAW and 804-01-284-3982; DEET Insect Repellent causes stress crazing/cracking
If you are referring to the test I think you are, it was not pmags that were used.
Eurodriver
05-05-12, 08:50
I think this is great news. Plain old GI mags work great. I'm so sick and tired of seeing pmag related stoppages and watching people look for issues with the gun instead of shitcanning their stupid plastic mags. I haven't messed with the ARC mags because for me they aren't a solution to a problem. My green and tan follower mags are all stellar performers.
This is actually a good move.
Of course it is. We had plenty of issues in extremely cold temps with PMAGs. Aside from the obnoxious clanking/springing sound empty USGI magazines make when thrown in a drop pouch, I have absolutely zero issues with them. They stack better, they're more streamlined, smaller... I greatly prefer them in almost every regard. Plus, with the USMC utilizing the IAR, having PMAGs floating around is now a liability.
If you are referring to the test I think you are, it was not pmags that were used.
I was not involved in the test so I cannot testify to the fact but Marine Corps Systems Command, PM Individual Weapons thinks otherwise and specifically quotes that test and say PMAG were tested and didn't meet the specifications
We are thinking about two different tests.
The one I was referring to was conducted by TECOM in 06 or 08, not the Marine Corps.
There are too many polymer magazines on the market and there are a lot of soldiers that only hear "polymer is better" and buy the cheapest out there. Tapco, Bulgarian, TD, PMAG, Lancer etc. Which one works and works best for combat use? Even here on this site, many prefer one over another. While companies claim that their product is "combat ready" that is a marketing term, not reality. By saying NO to polymer mags, that should make the USGI mag, which has worked since the beginning, the standard in the field. This is the first time in history that there has been so many accessories availiable for a fielded combat weapon. Sights, grips, foreends, magazines...etc and a way to put them in the hands of the troops. Many hang stuff on their weapon for no other reason to be like that other guy, so that must be better. Even in a rifle squad, damn near every rifle is outfitted different. Some have quality parts, some are complete crap. The Army is trying to to stop the flow of non standardized/tested magazines from getting into the hands of our Soldiers. Hope it works.
Very well said. Big Army can get silly at times, but this is a good move on their part.
polydeuces
05-05-12, 09:23
Switched to Pmags (flawless) because every other steel mag i ever used was a piece of crap - can't say who made them, probably were the bad ones?
So who actually makes the (good) GI mags, what to look for, and where to get them?
Thanks.
Eurodriver
05-05-12, 09:30
Switched to Pmags (flawless) because every other steel mag i ever used was a piece of crap - can't say who made them, probably were the bad ones?
So who actually makes the (good) GI mags, what to look for, and where to get them?
Thanks.
have you ever bought new in wrap USGI mags? In the original military packaging?
http://www.gunlistings.org/uploads/1_accessories_ar15_30_round_usgi_mags__clips__brand_new__38461.jpg
Various manufacturers make them, but Okay seemed to make the most I run into.
Switched to Pmags (flawless) because every other steel mag i ever used was a piece of crap - can't say who made them, probably were the bad ones?
So who actually makes the (good) GI mags, what to look for, and where to get them?
Thanks.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81074&highlight=Magazine+journey
So who actually makes the (good) GI mags, what to look for, and where to get them?
Thanks.
Okay Industries branded as Colt or NHMTG.
CarlosDJackal
05-05-12, 09:42
Putside of normal wear and tear, I have not had any issues with my aluminum "GI" magazines. However, I most exclusively use PMags nowadays.
That being said, I think this is a good idea. Too many GIs will buy the cheapest magazines they come across, use it once, and then declare it reiable enough for combat.
I know an AD AF type who is convinced that his Olympic Arms Carbine and Troy polymer magazines is the best combination even though he has never put these through a multi-day training course. But since he fancies himself an SME of sorts (no, he is not SF) you can't teach him anything because he already knows it all.
I perzonally have no problems using GI mags as long as they are made by the top manufactureres. YMMV.
Robb Jensen
05-05-12, 09:48
Policies such as this are "dumbing down" meaning they make a policy like this because there are people out there who think all polymer mags are created equal. Some people think for instance that Tapco mags are just as good as PMAGs, same dumbasses think all polymer pistols are created equal.
The problem with USGI aluminum mags is that people don't destroy them when they're past their service life and are causing stoppages. They try to fix them instead of tossing them in the trash. You can't fix a cracked double feeding polymer mag. I have no issues with USGI mags within their service life other than that and I own 50 or so. Once they cause a stoppage or are damaged I shitcan them.
Everything has a service life, the key is figuring out what the expected service life of a part is and to replace it before it fails. Example:
I replace my cam pins every 3K rounds or more often if they're really battered. (I find doing this seems to make bolts last longer)
Extractors, extractor pins and springs and firing pins every 10K
CAR buffer springs when they get to 10.25" in length
Hammer, trigger and disconnector springs every 7-10k rounds
Bolts every 7-10K rounds
I can't recall the last time I've had a malfunction that wasn't caused by the ammunition.
The USGI mags are great. I like PMAGs just fine but I go fight with USGI mags that I inspect, maintain, and just replace whenever I feel like it. I dry heave when ARC mags come up...mine all wouldn't work in any gun.
Like every other feed system, it's a disposable item. I don't think you'd have problems with either as long as you're not afraid to sacrifice them to the dumpster gods earlier than you'd like to.
USGI is all i've ever used. I've never had a reason to go to PMags since USGI mags have always worked as intended, even in the shitty environment of the Middle East. Like any other gun part, maintain it as well as you can, mark them for training or operational use, and when they fail discard appropriately.
If I remember right what turned me off from jumping on the Pmag fad was that the originals ones had issues on some AR's. I just remember something wasnt 100% with them. I'm sure others are more educated on the whole Pmag history.
When you're discussing magazines and the military, or specifically the military's perception of certain magazines, there is a habit / action that is so prevalent and of such importance to the discussion but is rarely mentioned.
There's this disease in the military, where people take off their armor and out of exhaustion, ignorance, and laziness, plop it down on the hard ground. Drop is probably a better word than plop. Often, the brunt of the impact falls directly on the magazine feed lips. Watch any average platoon take their kit off. 90% of them will essentially slam their magazines on the ground feed-lips first without even thinking about it.
Fix this bad habit, and magazine performance will become way less of an issue. All these equipment based solutions are of minimal importance compared to the issue of dumbasses slamming their magazines on the ground day in and day out.
I've said for a while now that there needs to be a substantial and deliberate effort to dedicate a day or two Army wide and go through every single magazine in circulation to identify the ones that need to be replaced. Direct every single soldier (in the fighting units at least) to gather up every magazine in his control. At the company level, put everybody in a loose formation with a pile of magazines in front of each soldier. Explain how to test and inspect the magazines. Do it, and chuck the bad ones. Have the supply sergeant do a 1 for 1 swap for every bad magazine found. Now that the bad magazines are out of circulation, have every soldier number his magazines with stencils and spray paint. Instruct them to keep track of which magazines are performing and to ditch the ones that aren't. Instruct them to stop slamming their body armor on the ground. Enforce all of the above.
The VAST majority of M4 malfunctions are magazine related. Fix this magazine epidemic and suddenly people will stop complaining about the M4's reliability.
When you're discussing magazines and the military, or specifically the military's perception of certain magazines, there is a habit / action that is so prevalent and of such importance to the discussion but is rarely mentioned.
There's this disease in the military, where people take off their armor and out of exhaustion, ignorance, and laziness, plop it down on the hard ground. Drop is probably a better word than plop. Often, the brunt of the impact falls directly on the magazine feed lips. Watch any average platoon take their kit off. 90% of them will essentially slam their magazines on the ground feed-lips first without even thinking about it.
Fix this bad habit, and magazine performance will become way less of an issue. All these equipment based solutions are of minimal importance compared to the issue of dumbasses slamming their magazines on the ground day in and day out.
I've said for a while now that there needs to be a substantial and deliberate effort to dedicate a day or two Army wide and go through every single magazine in circulation to identify the ones that need to be replaced. Direct every single soldier (in the fighting units at least) to gather up every magazine in his control. At the company level, put everybody in a loose formation with a pile of magazines in front of each soldier. Explain how to test and inspect the magazines. Do it, and chuck the bad ones. Have the supply sergeant do a 1 for 1 swap for every bad magazine found. Now that the bad magazines are out of circulation, have every soldier number his magazines with stencils and spray paint. Instruct them to keep track of which magazines are performing and to ditch the ones that aren't. Instruct them to stop slamming their body armor on the ground. Enforce all of the above.
The VAST majority of M4 malfunctions are magazine related. Fix this magazine epidemic and suddenly people will stop complaining about the M4's reliability.
Good point. I see the same issues in LE where people keep the same malfunctioning magazine because "it works most of the time." usually because it's personally purchased. Toss it and buy a new one! It's not worth your life to save $10-$15....
A0Cake, you're 100% on the mark. However, I don't see that happening in the near future. To take your common sense approach would mean that every soldier issued a weapon would need better training on how to maintain it and what makes it go bang reliably. Essentially, the military would have to depart from the lowest common denominator stance and switch to the bring everyone to a higher standard model of live. Pretty hard switch. The lowest common denominator thinking is very ingrained across our society. The concept that an individual can be trained and made accountable for their life is about as alien as it gets to some. IMO these types of zero tolerance policies are the dot band aids trying to cover a sucking chest wound. Just. It a good idea.
diving dave
05-05-12, 11:12
besides guys, I saw the President said the war on terror was pretty much over anyway..............:blink:
Of course it is. We had plenty of issues in extremely cold temps with PMAGs. Aside from the obnoxious clanking/springing sound empty USGI magazines make when thrown in a drop pouch, I have absolutely zero issues with them. They stack better, they're more streamlined, smaller... I greatly prefer them in almost every regard. Plus, with the USMC utilizing the IAR, having PMAGs floating around is now a liability.
Exactly.
I have began purging all Pmags out of my collection.
Over Easter weekend we went shooting. We had a pmag so swollen that the rounds were stacked in it side by side instead of staggered.
They were trapped about 1/4 of the way down the magazine body. I had never seen anything like it before.
It would not work in either my buddy's Benelli MR1 or my Colt 6933. This pmag belonged to my buddy who is a "casual gun owner" who doesn't shoot much, and the magazine was like new.
I banged it on the sole of my shoe and couldn't get the rounds to pop back in line to the top of the feedlips. Never seen anything like it.
Ammunition was federal M193. After taking a pocket knife to pluck out the ammo, we put it in a NHMTG magazine and there was no more problem.
polydeuces
05-05-12, 11:57
Cool, thanks.
Buy quality and demand 100% function, especially for those who go in harms way. That being said, this is an axle folks seem to get wrapped around far too easily.
Lots of conversation lately about GI mags. All that is old is new again.
The best reason I've seen for using EVERYTHING but metal G.I. magazines: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdesKUSUchA
After watching this I wouldn't take G.I. magazines if they were offered for free, it's Magpul or nothing.
It makes me wonder if the guy making the final decision watched this video, or ever pulled a trigger in anger. :blink:
The best reason I've seen for using EVERYTHING but metal G.I. magazines: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdesKUSUchA
After watching this I wouldn't take G.I. magazines if they were offered for free, it's Magpul or nothing.
http://i40.tinypic.com/2ivfgb6.jpg
Heavy Metal
05-05-12, 12:37
Exactly.
I have began purging all Pmags out of my collection.
Over Easter weekend we went shooting. We had a pmag so swollen that the rounds were stacked in it side by side instead of staggered.
They were trapped about 1/4 of the way down the magazine body. I had never seen anything like it before.
It would not work in either my buddy's Benelli MR1 or my Colt 6933. This pmag belonged to my buddy who is a "casual gun owner" who doesn't shoot much, and the magazine was like new.
I banged it on the sole of my shoe and couldn't get the rounds to pop back in line to the top of the feedlips. Never seen anything like it.
Ammunition was federal M193. After taking a pocket knife to pluck out the ammo, we put it in a NHMTG magazine and there was no more problem.
That sounds like somebody tried to overstuff the magazine and put 32 rounds in it.
http://i40.tinypic.com/2ivfgb6.jpg
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc390/jsop0331/superhighfive.jpg
morbidbattlecry
05-05-12, 13:00
And so the winds of the internet blow.
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-05-12, 13:01
I never had an issue with a GI mag ever, dont see a reason to ban it but no matter I guess.
mkmckinley
05-05-12, 13:27
PMAGs actually failed Army testing several years ago for the following reasons
1) rough handling at -60F causes damage/cracks in feed lip
2) immersion in MIL-L-46000 Lubricant Semi-Fluid Automatic Weapons - LAW and 804-01-284-3982; DEET Insect Repellent causes stress crazing/cracking
I'm not surprised: I've had the feed lips on Pmags crack in cold weather and not just once. I'm not shit canning my Pmags any time soon but my serious-use mags are USGI with the tan followers or Magpul followers.
The best reason I've seen for using EVERYTHING but metal G.I. magazines: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdesKUSUchA
After watching this I wouldn't take G.I. magazines if they were offered for free, it's Magpul or nothing.
It makes me wonder if the guy making the final decision watched this video, or ever pulled a trigger in anger. :blink:
I know right, every time I went on a mission a truck ran over my mags and then I stuffed them full of sand. I hate it when that happens. I need some pmags.
It makes me wonder if the guy making the final decision watched this video, or ever pulled a trigger in anger. :blink:
Makes me wonder the same of you, no offense.
Metal mags never gave me any shit. If they did I turned them into the armory.
The guy in the armory was into sport shooting so he never second guessed anyone requesting new mags.
I don't have much time with polymer mags but id be interested to see how they stood up on a chest rig with constant movement under fire drills and buddy carrys and such.
Uniformity assists in easy repair and replacement.
That and you'll always get that guy who thinks just because its polymer its good to go, Buying the cheapest shit from china and wondering why it doesn't work. Makes sense that they'd cut the BS.
Imagine if the Army allowed personally owned rifles? How many DPMS's would you see out their with sightmark optics and CCA stocks?
Side note: I was told by a NG friend that they are allowed to bring self acquired rifles overseas. And use them instead of issued M4s.
Can anyone confirm?
Side note: I was told by a NG friend that they are allowed to bring self acquired rifles overseas. And use them instead of issued M4s.
Can anyone confirm?
SF types can get away with it, but regular forces allowed, no way.
SF types can get away with it, but regular forces allowed, no way.
Not just no, but **** no, is that allowed or condoned. That is a career ender anywhere if you got caught, SF included.
Not just no, but **** no, is that allowed or condoned. That is a career ender anywhere if you got caught, SF included.
Not to mention you'd lose auto/burst capabilities:alcoholic:...
Not just no, but **** no, is that allowed or condoned. That is a career ender anywhere if you got caught, SF included.
FACT.
I didn't think so, I do believe that they were told they could. Then again their unit doesn't seem to squared away.
Doc Safari
05-05-12, 19:23
I think this is great news. Plain old GI mags work great. I'm so sick and tired of seeing pmag related stoppages and watching people look for issues with the gun instead of shitcanning their stupid plastic mags.
I agree. Not that I have a wealth of personal experience but it's odd there are so many complaints where Pmags are used when they are supposedly such great mags.
ForTehNguyen
05-05-12, 19:25
I got both, who cares, both have advantages and disadvantages over the other
Doc Safari
05-05-12, 19:26
I replace my cam pins every 3K rounds or more often if they're really battered. (I find doing this seems to make bolts last longer)
Extractors, extractor pins and springs and firing pins every 10K
CAR buffer springs when they get to 10.25" in length
Hammer, trigger and disconnector springs every 7-10k rounds
Bolts every 7-10K rounds
I can't recall the last time I've had a malfunction that wasn't caused by the ammunition.
Good concise rules of thumb. I'm going to print this out and tack it to the lid of my parts container, I think. ;)
I didn't think so, I do believe that they were told they could. Then again their unit doesn't seem to squared away.
That's beyond not squared away. Unproven parts make you a liability in combat. A SF Soldier on my COP in Zabul province 2009 had a LMT piston upper break on him in a fire fight.
That's beyond not squared away. Unproven parts make you a liability in combat. A SF Soldier on my COP in Zabul province 2009 had a LMT piston upper break on him in a fire fight.
What did you do to him. Sir?
Alaskapopo
05-05-12, 19:37
I think this is great news. Plain old GI mags work great. I'm so sick and tired of seeing pmag related stoppages and watching people look for issues with the gun instead of shitcanning their stupid plastic mags. I haven't messed with the ARC mags because for me they aren't a solution to a problem. My green and tan follower mags are all stellar performers.
This is actually a good move.
I personally have seen a lot more magazine malfunctions with GI mags than P mags.
Pat
What did you do to him. Sir?
He wasn't in my chain of command but his punishment was letting his fellow Soldiers down.
Alaskapopo
05-05-12, 19:41
Switched to Pmags (flawless) because every other steel mag i ever used was a piece of crap - can't say who made them, probably were the bad ones?
So who actually makes the (good) GI mags, what to look for, and where to get them?
Thanks.
GI mags are not made of steel. They are made out of alluminum. I have plenty of good GI mags in addition to plenty of P mags, lancers etc. However with GI mags you can have a bad mag and not even know it. At least when a P mag takes a dump its obvious to the naked eye.
Pat
I personally have seen a lot more magazine malfunctions with GI mags than P mags.
Pat
Me too but I've been around thousands of GI mags, and all the ones that malfunctioned were old.
My understanding for the block on ordering the PMAGs through PBUSE was that they were highly pilfer-able. Instead of adding them to any form of accountability at the Company and BN level, Big Army just decided to say (NO MORE).
We ordered about 1000 while in Afghanistan. I'm sure there are maybe around 10-20 still left in the Company Arm's room right now.
I've only ever used GI mags.
Because there are no pre-ban pmags.
FML
That sounds like somebody tried to overstuff the magazine and put 32 rounds in it.
It wasn't overstuffed. It only had about ~20 rounds in it when it swelled.
The first ~10 rounds fired fine.
I've only ever used GI mags.
Because there are no pre-ban pmags.
FML
LOL. That was pretty funny. I'm in a ban state also, but my situation is nowhere near as dire. When I moved to NY I gave 30 or so PMAG's to my buddy in Florida and got ~40 brand new pre-ban USGI type magazines in return. Not sure what I'm going to do when they shit the bed. I do my best to baby them but shit happens. :eek:
I have never had any major issues with usgi mags. I ran my training mags pretty hard always keeping them seperate. Whenever they went bad (always after a lot of use), they went in the trash.
I have no idea why I went to pmags since I was never too big on the magpul brand but I did. I switched away from a perfectly good mags to try pmags. I'm back to usgi and haven't regretted it.
Other than issues others have pointed out, I am not a fan of the ribbing and thickness as it creates a lot of friction in double mag pouches. Also, it is a lot easier to insert usgi mags into the magazine well than pmags (for me at least). Pmags catch a bit more if placement isn't near perfect so I am not as consistent with them (not a huge issue).
Strider5.56
05-05-12, 22:39
During my time in the Army I did experience problems with the metal issued mags. Then again these were mostly old issue 20 rd mags, maybe left over from NAM, I don't know. One thing I like about PMags is that they will flex a little and go back to their original shape. Sometimes the metal mags when sat on, laided on, etc. Will bend on not go back to their original shape. This is when I witnessed feeding issues. This mostly occurred when we got a cherry straight out of AIT, who would wear his LBV high and with all the mags directly over the front of his chest. So when he hit the deck, he was landing on his mags. Not smart. The post earlier about the PMags failing at -60F, how many Taliban do you see running around the North pole. I would be concerned with the M-16/M-4 cycling at that temp with the break free oil anyway (maybe militec that is issued). I think mags are like anything else, you take care of them, they will take care of you.
Alaskapopo
05-06-12, 00:22
Me too but I've been around thousands of GI mags, and all the ones that malfunctioned were old.
That is the problem with GI mags is you never know when they are bad until they malf. If this decision stands it will go down much like the armys specification for a magazine cut off in the Krag so the soldiers would not waste ammo in combat. Pure stupid.
Pat
That is the problem with GI mags is you never know when they are bad until they malf.
How is that not true of all magazines? (i.e., you only know they're bad when they fail.)
How is that not true of all magazines? (i.e., you only know they're bad when they fail.)
Metal is malleable. Plastic breaks.
How is that not true of all magazines? (i.e., you only know they're bad when they fail.)
The singular advantage I'd give to poly mags is that one can visibly see when the feed lips are out of spec (because they ****ing crack first). However, one has to inspect them in the first place to notice it anyhow I suppose.... I'd guess that less than 1 in 10 do this, even in working BN's...
That is the problem with GI mags is you never know when they are bad until they malf. If this decision stands it will go down much like the armys specification for a magazine cut off in the Krag so the soldiers would not waste ammo in combat. Pure stupid.
Pat
This is just a silly argument. The fact that two SME's on this board are advocating usgi mags should be a clue. I personally know several sf dudes who reverted back to or never left usgi mags in the first place and feel the same way.
A regular maintainance schedule and seperation of training mags make usgi mags as reliable as the gun firing them. There are a lot of things that can go bust on an AR but the professional changes out springs, pins, extractors, ejectors, etc ... on a schedule to prevent failures in the field. Magazines are no different. Maintain them and they'll work when you need them to.
P.S. By maintainane on magazines I mean checking them for obvious damage, wiping mud and other crap off, function testing when possible, and relegating to training or the trash can those magazines have been seeing heavy use (preferably prior to failure). I do NOT mean disassembling them.
Alaskapopo
05-06-12, 01:58
How is that not true of all magazines? (i.e., you only know they're bad when they fail.)
As others have said with P mags you can easily tell if its broken not so with a GI mag.
pat
Alaskapopo
05-06-12, 02:01
This is just a silly argument. The fact that two SME's on this board are advocating usgi mags should be a clue. I personally know several sf dudes who reverted back to or never left usgi mags in the first place and feel the same way.
A regular maintainance schedule and seperation of training mags make usgi mags as reliable as the gun firing them. There are a lot of things that can go bust on an AR but the professional changes out springs, pins, extractors, ejectors, etc ... on a schedule to prevent failures in the field. Magazines are no different. Maintain them and they'll work when you need them to.
P.S. By maintainane on magazines I mean checking them for obvious damage, wiping mud and other crap off, function testing when possible, and relegating to training or the trash can those magazines have been seeing heavy use (preferably prior to failure). I do NOT mean disassembling them.
I frankly don't know what basis the two SME's on this board have for their decision. What I do know is based on personal experience from being a shooter, LEO, firearms instructor and competator. P mags have served me better overall than USGI mags have. (not saying USGI mags are junk I own a lot still) Others may disagree. If a SME on the forum tells me something that is contrary to my personal experience I am still going to go with my personal experience. Also I am sure you will find conflicting opinions among SME's as well.
Pat
Just throwing this out there:
To see if a magazine is good or not as part of a routine preventative maintenance schedule, load 15 rounds and give the magazine a good slap from the bottom. If rounds come out, ditch the magazine. You can also use this gauge:
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=41033/Product/AR-15-M16-MAGAZINE-FEED-LIP-GAUGE
Staying proactive will make the gradual / not easily noticeable with the naked eye damage to USGI magazines a non-issue.
Just throwing this out there:
To see if a magazine is good or not as part of a routine preventative maintenance schedule, load 15 rounds and give the magazine a good slap from the bottom. If rounds come out, ditch the magazine.
That's a good one, I'm gonna add that to my routine. I usually do a visual inspection or a side by side with a new mag. Thanks brother.
train of abuses
05-06-12, 02:29
I'm not surprised: I've had the feed lips on Pmags crack in cold weather and not just once. I'm not shit canning my Pmags any time soon but my serious-use mags are USGI with the tan followers or Magpul followers.
Thanks for the report. How cold was it when they cracked if you don't mind me asking?
I frankly don't know what basis the two SME's on this board have for their decision. What I do know is based on personal experience from being a shooter, LEO, firearms instructor and competator. P mags have served me better overall than USGI mags have. (not saying USGI mags are junk I own a lot still) Others may disagree. If a SME on the forum tells me something that is contrary to my personal experience I am still going to go with my personal experience. Also I am sure you will find conflicting opinions among SME's as well.
Pat
To each their own, I have no problem with folks who use pmags :). I just don't agree with your reasoning since proper maintenance makes the point moot in my opinion. I will add that most aluminium mags I have seen fail were the old, sometimes worn the hell out, black follower usgi's and low quality aluminium mags. I rarely see malfunctions with the green or tan follower usgi's, even the ones not well maintained.
And I'll let the SME's speak for themselves but the majority sf guys I know and have worked with don't go with the "the new thing" unless it is thoroughly tested (often by themselves) AND represents significant improvement in capability. The pmags don't meet this threshold for a lot of these dudes (I personally believe pmags have a couple of drawbacks rather than adding to capability). That said, of course every one has their own opinions and there are certainly SME's who prefer pmags.
I am wondering the context surrounding the failures you have observed and experienced from usgi mags. Are we talking about training mags? Used mags issued for firearms training? Green or tan follower usgi's? I assume most of these failures occurred in training or gaming since I think it's safe to assume that you don't shoot that much in an operational context.
If you maintain your magazines, I don't see why you are having so many issues with usgi mags. If you don't mind, would you explain some context surrounding the failures you have witnessed? I am honestly not being an ass, this is more for my education.
I've had newer (Okay) magazines fail on me.
Limited round count through the mags (ran through 4 or 5 times at the most) and in training, several simply dumped the base plate and the guts spewed all over the ground.
This was when I was doing a side by side comparison of Pmags to USGI under what I consider difficult conditions (active gravel pit).
I had bought 2 Pmags to test and the rest in my gear were the virtually new Okay mags I had bought during the ban years to be my "go to" mags. I had run the OK mags through three times to ensure that they worked properly then stored them until the ban passed.
Once Pmags were developed, I was leery due to my previous experiences with thermolds and orlites so I only bought two for testing.
Like I said, several USGI mags took a shit on me in less then half a day and the Pmags took the abuse and kept going.
After that I packed away all of my USGI mags into ammo cans for future "what-ifs" and have run nothing but Pmags for awhile now with zero issues or complaints. Including a fair amount of FA fire, training sessions, etc. Rain, snow, sleet, hail, hot weather, cold weather, FA, suppressed, training, dirt shooting (what little i do), being dropped in mud, kicked around, accidentally stepped on while in the gravel pit, etc. etc. etc.
My personal experience, not the name on the side, keeps me squarely in the Pmag camp for the time being.
Side note: I was told by a NG friend that they are allowed to bring self acquired rifles overseas. And use them instead of issued M4s.
Can anyone confirm?
As others have said "NO!".
General Order #1 prohibits personal firearms in-theater (thank you Norman).
I find it interestng that the "New" brown followers essentially take Magpul's idea and institutionalize it.
I wonder if Magpul gets royalties?
I was recently in A'stan and I saw numerous U.S and some NATO personnel using PMAG's.
I personally know U.S military personnel who have carried PMAG's into combat. If it were up to me I would take PMAG's any day over aluminum. The pros and cons are already well known.
I find PMAG's much easier to field strip and maintain.
As for the personal weapons thing....I do in fact know a few guys that brought their own uppers into theater and used them. In one case it was against the advice of someone who had some misgivings about the reliability of said upper.
scoutfsu99
05-06-12, 05:38
I'm curious how many people would listen to TACOM about their approved lube too?
We're lucky that we have options between reliable magazines instead of options between unreliable magazines.
The post earlier about the PMags failing at -60F, how many Taliban do you see running around the North pole. I would be concerned with the M-16/M-4 cycling at that temp with the break free oil anyway (maybe militec that is issued).
Although it does get cold out in RC East probably not TB, but there may be a concern with NORKs since there is a history of fighting them in extreme cold. I would be more concerned with the insect repellent and cold weather lube (That the LAW stuff mentioned) issues. Down in the green zone of the Helmand at least I experience quite a bit of bugs
RogerinTPA
05-06-12, 06:09
Problem is, that there are so many Pmags in Theater and in the system, it's not even funny. I see more Pmags carried by Soldiers and Marines, where I'm based, as well as the FOBs I fly into, than USGI type mags (Which appear to be well worn, with a gold hue). As others have stated, to this day, there is still no mandated inspection in place for replacing Mags (and Extractors). If armorers are doing so, they are few and far between. IMHO, any unit deploying should have brand new mags issued and extractors replaced. Returning units to CONUS should have those mags inspected, then turned in to be used as training mags only.
I have a healthy dose of both Pmags (100+) and USGI type (100+ of D&H & NHMTG), but have been buying the NHMTG mags with Magpul followers since they are so cheap these days. Out of all the Pmags I've owned, I've had only 3 fail so far, but they were several years old and well used, so I felt I got my money's worth. As they fail from normal personal and class usage, they will be replaced with NHMTGs.
Makes me wonder the same of you, no offense.
Metal mags never gave me any shit. If they did I turned them into the armory.
The guy in the armory was into sport shooting so he never second guessed anyone requesting new mags.
I don't have much time with polymer mags but id be interested to see how they stood up on a chest rig with constant movement under fire drills and buddy carrys and such.
Uniformity assists in easy repair and replacement.
That and you'll always get that guy who thinks just because its polymer its good to go, Buying the cheapest shit from china and wondering why it doesn't work. Makes sense that they'd cut the BS.
Imagine if the Army allowed personally owned rifles? How many DPMS's would you see out their with sightmark optics and CCA stocks?
Side note: I was told by a NG friend that they are allowed to bring self acquired rifles overseas. And use them instead of issued M4s.
Can anyone confirm?
It depends on the state and the policy for the use of personally owned weapons. My state back home does not allow it, but I ran into a Wisconsin NG unit in Afghanistan that allowed their unit to use their personal AR 15 upper receivers instead of their issued Colt uppers. I spoke to my company First Sergeant and he said it is common that NG units are allowed to use their upper receivers or complete rifles. I asked why and he said he was not sure, but one reason could be they had more trigger time on a personal weapon then an issued rifle that is simple not fired very often if at all.
If OPCON to a combantant commander, his rules are in effect.
It doesn't matter what your state's policy is, when activated you are under Title X, and what your state says means absolutely nothing.
If OPCON to a combantant commander, his rules are in effect.
It doesn't matter what your state's policy is, when activated you are under Title X, and what your state says means absolutely nothing.
Yea, I am going by how it was explained to me, it was news to me that it was even allowed.
When you're discussing magazines and the military, or specifically the military's perception of certain magazines, there is a habit / action that is so prevalent and of such importance to the discussion but is rarely mentioned.
There's this disease in the military, where people take off their armor and out of exhaustion, ignorance, and laziness, plop it down on the hard ground. Drop is probably a better word than plop. Often, the brunt of the impact falls directly on the magazine feed lips. Watch any average platoon take their kit off. 90% of them will essentially slam their magazines on the ground feed-lips first without even thinking about it.
Fix this bad habit, and magazine performance will become way less of an issue. All these equipment based solutions are of minimal importance compared to the issue of dumbasses slamming their magazines on the ground day in and day out.
I've said for a while now that there needs to be a substantial and deliberate effort to dedicate a day or two Army wide and go through every single magazine in circulation to identify the ones that need to be replaced. Direct every single soldier (in the fighting units at least) to gather up every magazine in his control. At the company level, put everybody in a loose formation with a pile of magazines in front of each soldier. Explain how to test and inspect the magazines. Do it, and chuck the bad ones. Have the supply sergeant do a 1 for 1 swap for every bad magazine found. Now that the bad magazines are out of circulation, have every soldier number his magazines with stencils and spray paint. Instruct them to keep track of which magazines are performing and to ditch the ones that aren't. Instruct them to stop slamming their body armor on the ground. Enforce all of the above.
The VAST majority of M4 malfunctions are magazine related. Fix this magazine epidemic and suddenly people will stop complaining about the M4's reliability.
Just throwing this out there:
To see if a magazine is good or not as part of a routine preventative maintenance schedule, load 15 rounds and give the magazine a good slap from the bottom. If rounds come out, ditch the magazine. You can also use this gauge:
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=41033/Product/AR-15-M16-MAGAZINE-FEED-LIP-GAUGE
Staying proactive will make the gradual / not easily noticeable with the naked eye damage to USGI magazines a non-issue.
Have you submitted your ideas to the AWG? If not I have a POC for you.
skullworks
05-06-12, 09:15
My guess, being a European civvie, is as voiced by others already that the Army block/ban is to prevent people from buying crap magazines and using them in a combat environment.
As to PMAG vs metal mags; in early 2011 the UK MOD ditched the steel HK magazines for their SA80 rifles in Afghanistan in favor of the Magpul EMAG. See article here: Troops in Afghanistan get new lightweight rifle magazines (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/TroopsInAfghanistanGetNewLightweightRifleMagazines.htm). The difference between the EMAG (Export Magazine) and the PMAG (Polymer Magazine) is that the EMAG was designed to fit a wider range of STANAG magwells than the PMAG. As to structural integrity the PMAG (with it's added material) should at least in theory be sturdier than the EMAG.
As you may know there is a German copy of the PMAG called G-MAG (originally manufactured by Cerberus GmbH but now branded OA-MAG and made by Oberland Defence), which I've heard reports actually outperform the original PMAGs. The G-MAG is a copy of a first-generation PMAG, but with some subtle differences. Where the feedlips of the PMAG will crack, the G-MAG will keep on trucking (one example I've heard is using them in M249 SAW, where the PMAG apparently will crack pretty quick).
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-06-12, 09:38
I've only ever used GI mags.
Because there are no pre-ban pmags.
FML
I was wrong this is correct
I tried some PMAGS but they would not fit in any of my lowers with out sanding. I decided that they were not worth it for me based on that. I think we have all seen personaly owned stuff overseas allowed or not it happens all the time. In 04 we had a NG unit from Nebraska as our force pro, they had two sniper quilified guys but no rifle. So they brought there own upper and we gave them an M16A2 so they could use their upper on it.
Wile the facts are true it matters not in NY as every mag with a capicty over 10 rounds is a no-go pre ban or not.
Hey man, where are you getting this from? It's not true at all. Or are you just trying to keep all the pre-bans for yourself? :secret:
NYS Penal Code 265.00 section 23
23. "Large capacity ammunition feeding device" means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device, manufactured after September thirteenth, nineteen hundred ninety-four, that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition; provided, however, that such term does not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition."
Have you submitted your ideas to the AWG? If not I have a POC for you.
Not formally. I mean, I've discussed it with various AWG and CATC shooting school personnel over the years. They're on the same page. It seems everyone's aware of the widespread mistreatment and mismanagement of magazines, except for the yahoos actually doing it (this includes senior NCO's and Officers...it's happening in their units so either they don't know or don't care).
I just ETS'd recently, but if you want to suggest or reinvigorate the impetus to enforce some of this, feel free to use my suggestion as your own and make the recommendations.
I was recently in A'stan and I saw numerous U.S and some NATO personnel using PMAG's.
I personally know U.S military personnel who have carried PMAG's into combat. If it were up to me I would take PMAG's any day over aluminum. The pros and cons are already well known.
That's because they were literally issued out by the thousands. Probably tens of thousands. They were the black ones with the window. There was such an overflow of them that I had a solid 20 of them under my personal control last deployment, as did most.
Merits of PMAG's vs USGI magazines aside, I wish they would make up their minds and stop wasting money. That I was inundated and could literally go swimming in issued PMAG's just a few months ago, and now they're banned, is insane to me from just a decision making point of view. I'd like to see that chain of events.
PS. After being flooded with these PMAG's, one of our sister units banned them at unit level. Apparently they were falling out of the M4's randomly. I had serious doubts when I first heard that and chalked it up to improperly adjusted magazine catches or people accidentally hitting the release and blaming it on the magazines. Then it happened to me. On a related note: it was at almost 10,000 FT elevation and cold as Hillary Clinton's lady parts. Probably related. Or, it could have just been a bad run of PMAG's, just like there can be a bad run of anything, including USGI magaznes. Who knows?
Not formally. I mean, I've discussed it with various AWG and CATC shooting school personnel over the years. They're on the same page. It seems everyone's aware of the widespread mistreatment and mismanagement of magazines, except for the yahoos actually doing it (this includes senior NCO's and Officers...it's happening in their units so either they don't know or don't care).
I just ETS'd recently, but if you want to suggest or reinvigorate the impetus to enforce some of this, feel free to use my suggestion as your own and make the recommendations.
WILCO. I'm going to check CALL tomorrow and hit my AWG POC up. When I was a LT and first became aware that magazines could go bad I would wait at the ammo shed on qualification days and anyone that was re-firing due to double feeds I'd make them throw away the mags; but now we have tools and TTPs.
a0cake,
I agree with your post, unfortunately I think the idea will slip away. Another thing to consider is this.
Original magazines were DESIGNED to be used and discarded. Obviously that practice stopped as soon as some bean conting General did the math and realized how much money was being spent or wasted (depending on how you look at it).
So now we institute a regimen that says that all magazines MUST BE checked at xxxx interval. Any magazines found to have faults will be discarded. What will happen is that someone will look at cost and say WE CAN'T DO THAT (look at the money going to waste or why can't we use them for training) and the magazines then end right back up in the Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marines' kit.
The one possible solution would be to have a magazine hit team on hand with 5lb. hammer that served instant death to damaged magazines and was led by a 3 star General that could over rule some moron who wants to keep the mags.
a0cake,
I agree with your post, unfortunately I think the idea will slip away. Another thing to consider is this.
Original magazines were DESIGNED to be used and discarded. Obviously that practice stopped as soon as some bean conting General did the math and realized how much money was being spent or wasted (depending on how you look at it).
So now we institute a regimen that says that all magazines MUST BE checked at xxxx interval. Any magazines found to have faults will be discarded. What will happen is that someone will look at cost and say WE CAN'T DO THAT (look at the money going to waste or why can't we use them for training) and the magazines then end right back up in the Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marines' kit.
The one possible solution would be to have a magazine hit team on hand with 5lb. hammer that served instant death to damaged magazines and was led by a 3 star General that could over rule some moron who wants to keep the mags.
It has to become part of our PMCS culture.
just for FYI, We were issued these in OEF 11, has a feed lip gauge built on.
http://www.samson-mfg.com/ar-15_html/product/FS-001.html
Failure2Stop
05-06-12, 15:19
I don't think that PMags would have gotten the attention that they did were it not for the HK magazine.
The HKs were an improvement over the ratty ass beat to hell bent and rebent feed-lip GI mags that so many of us were stuck with during the dark and depressing days of the Crime Bill. Magazine issues probably accounted for 80% of the issues we had with our M16s/M4s (don't even want to get into the M249 issues), mostly because armorers would simply reissue f***ed up magazines. I had one of my new kids show up to an inspection with a magazine with the word "BAD" clearly ledgible in red paint marker, IN MY F***ING HANDWRITING.
Anyway, HK mags were great if they were issued (before the spring wear issue reared its head) and didn't get dented, as they were hard to justify at the $80 price point they were demanding. We were mostly dropping the followers and springs from issued mags and replacing them with better followers from MagPul and springs from other mags or upgraded ones from Wolff. It was a good solution if you were issued magazines, but stung a bit if you were buying GI mags.
Then, out of the West sprang "new" polymer magazines. I first saw them in a Pat Rogers class, and they were to be considered "training only" magazines at that time. Before you could say "Tactical Reload" there were videos of dudes running them over with trucks, tanks, and steam-rollers. As a community, we were sold before we could even find them on shelves. The fact that they cost 1/5th the price of HK mags had tremendous appeal, as did the ability to stuff 30 rounds into them and be able to tac-reload, in addition to the nice feature to not ramdomly tear a gouge in your thumb while stuffing the mag/press checking the top round. They also came in uniform matching colors (!).
I was an early proponent of PMags. Never had an issue with them (only bought one windowed mag, for verification of claims), and there were a lot of nice things about them. I destroyed one of mine just to see how much abuse one could take before failure. And make no bones about it, I absolutely did break it. What I really liked was how much damage the feedlips could take, and when they did break, they still would work (at least for the remainer of that magazine), and damage would simply take a chunk out of the mag or create a clean crack that would not interfere with operation. A small dent in the side of a metal mag will bind the follower, and bent feedlips will cause problems. An experienced eye will quickly identify the problem, but there are not as many experienced eyes in the .mil as there rightfully should be. Further, they actually worked in M249s, which was a nice bonus. So, an inexpensive magazine that functionally holds 30 rounds (though I load to 28 for real work) featuring a working anti-tilt and crud resistant follower that can be quickly visually checked for issues and worked in all of our 5.56 weapons held great value.
Then the love affair began to taper off.
It all really started a few years ago when a batch of them had repeated failures during a carbine course. The guy that reported it was met by huge push-back. Then issues started to arise in cold weather, which was also met by huge push-back. It was initially reported that non-black versions were less robust than the black ones, but that was met by huge push-back. It seemed that only people that personally experienced issues with PMags believed that they weren't the single greatest improvement to the system since the Mk262.
I have broken PMags.
I have broken HK mags.
I have broken a lot of GI mags.
I also wear out disposable razors at a pretty predicatable pace.
Magazines are a disposable item. Do not pay more for them than what you are willing to throw away once expected service life is met in your environment. Most magazines work...until they don't.
I stopped buying magazines about 2 years ago, other than a few "new" GI mags I grabbed on a whim for $9 each.
When my rotation of mags drops by another 20 I will probably pick up some of the new Lancers (just to see how they work) or GI mags (I have a relatively unfounded fondness for OKay mags, but haven't seen new ones in a while).
The best reason I've seen for using EVERYTHING but metal G.I. magazines: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdesKUSUchA
After watching this I wouldn't take G.I. magazines if they were offered for free, it's Magpul or nothing.
It makes me wonder if the guy making the final decision watched this video, or ever pulled a trigger in anger. :blink:
I won't comment on the video or the post. However I did love this comment on the video.
Humvee: DIE PMAG DIEEE!!!
PMAG: HAHAHAH I LAUGH AT YOUR ATTEMPTS TO HURT ME!!
HUMVEE: WHY WONT YOU DIE!!
PMAG: THIS IS GETTING TIRING...WAKE ME UP WHEN YOU DONE
HUMVEE: GO TO HELL PMAG!! *runs off angrily*
Are the tan followers anti tilt?
Are the tan followers anti tilt?
Yep, they are.
Cagemonkey
05-06-12, 18:26
F2S pretty much summed it up. The problem is a system that tries to keep a disposable, non repairable item in service beyond its limits. All unserviceable GI mags should be destroyed as soon as they are determined to be defective with the heal of ones boot in order to prevent them from being recirculated. The new tan followers sound great except for the fact that they should have been designed so as to limit the magazine to 28 rounds.
I just ETS'd recently, but if you want to suggest or reinvigorate the impetus to enforce some of this, feel free to use my suggestion as your own and make the recommendations.
That just shows character. a0cake, you're a solid dude.
Strider5.56
05-06-12, 20:13
I frankly don't know what basis the two SME's on this board have for their decision. What I do know is based on personal experience from being a shooter, LEO, firearms instructor and competator. P mags have served me better overall than USGI mags have. (not saying USGI mags are junk I own a lot still) Others may disagree. If a SME on the forum tells me something that is contrary to my personal experience I am still going to go with my personal experience. Also I am sure you will find conflicting opinions among SME's as well.
Pat
I agree totally with Pat. If personal experience is different than what some SME on hear are saying, I am going with personal experience. Once again I wonder how one becomes a SME.......I have personally seen crap on here that I just can't believe people are supporting product "A" over product "B". Only thing I can figure is that they are getting freebies or it looks good in "Call of Duty, Modern Warfare". We must remember, and I am NOT knocking 90% of our true SMEs on here, if you are an "Instructor/Trainer", you got to have some kinda of new technique or new tool to make you relevant. Or you start bashing something that a majority of people have NOT had any issues with because you need to market your stuff. I love these guys who always say "If you like this, your an idiot." Then they never back up what they are saying with some actual research or examples. Then magically they appear with a new product endorsement. They are as fake as any pop singer on MTV selling records. Any acclaimed SME out there giving info just so they can make a buck can burn in hell......
I agree totally with Pat. If personal experience is different than what some SME on hear are saying, I am going with personal experience. Once again I wonder how one becomes a SME.......I have personally seen crap on here that I just can't believe people are supporting product "A" over product "B". Only thing I can figure is that they are getting freebies or it looks good in "Call of Duty, Modern Warfare". We must remember, and I am NOT knocking 90% of our true SMEs on here, if you are an "Instructor/Trainer", you got to have some kinda of new technique or new tool to make you relevant. Or you start bashing something that a majority of people have NOT had any issues with because you need to market your stuff. I love these guys who always say "If you like this, your an idiot." Then they never back up what they are saying with some actual research or examples. Then magically they appear with a new product endorsement. They are as fake as any pop singer on MTV selling records. Any acclaimed SME out there giving info just so they can make a buck can burn in hell......
You went full retard man. Nobody here is making money by bashing PMAG's and advocating using USGI mags.
You went full retard man. Nobody here is making money by bashing PMAG's and advocating using USGI mags.
:cool::haha:
I agree totally with Pat. If personal experience is different than what some SME on hear are saying, I am going with personal experience. Once again I wonder how one becomes a SME.......I have personally seen crap on here that I just can't believe people are supporting product "A" over product "B". Only thing I can figure is that they are getting freebies or it looks good in "Call of Duty, Modern Warfare". We must remember, and I am NOT knocking 90% of our true SMEs on here, if you are an "Instructor/Trainer", you got to have some kinda of new technique or new tool to make you relevant. Or you start bashing something that a majority of people have NOT had any issues with because you need to market your stuff. I love these guys who always say "If you like this, your an idiot." Then they never back up what they are saying with some actual research or examples. Then magically they appear with a new product endorsement. They are as fake as any pop singer on MTV selling records. Any acclaimed SME out there giving info just so they can make a buck can burn in hell......
I'm with a0cake on this one dude. I think there was some reading comprehension fail on your part.
And my understanding is that the SME's on this site are verified sf dudes. That doesn't mean that they don't have differing opinions or that everyone else should bow down and do whatever an SME suggests or does. What it means is: Here is a dude with a ton of training and knowledge, been through selection, and most importantly, has had lots of actual operational experience. Not gaming and/or tons of traning or whatever some folks think make themselves qualified to disrespect SME's. When they speak, I listen with an open mind. Doesn't mean I blindly follow.
P.S. much respect for the conventional combat mos dudes too. I am specifically refering to the SME's as that is what was being addressed and their creds have been verified. There is a small but decent number of folks on this forum that definitely know what they are talking about without a status next to their name (such as a0cake).
I agree totally with Pat. If personal experience is different than what some SME on hear are saying, I am going with personal experience. Once again I wonder how one becomes a SME.......I have personally seen crap on here that I just can't believe people are supporting product "A" over product "B". Only thing I can figure is that they are getting freebies or it looks good in "Call of Duty, Modern Warfare". We must remember, and I am NOT knocking 90% of our true SMEs on here, if you are an "Instructor/Trainer", you got to have some kinda of new technique or new tool to make you relevant. Or you start bashing something that a majority of people have NOT had any issues with because you need to market your stuff. I love these guys who always say "If you like this, your an idiot." Then they never back up what they are saying with some actual research or examples. Then magically they appear with a new product endorsement. They are as fake as any pop singer on MTV selling records. Any acclaimed SME out there giving info just so they can make a buck can burn in hell......
Might consider taking a second to read this thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=76472&highlight=SME
You went full retard man. Nobody here is making money by bashing PMAG's and advocating using USGI mags.
You didn't get your check?
Question:
Is there a milspec for Pmags? While I haven't seen/found it yet there is undoubtedly one for the aluminum mags, and I imagine it is right down to the number of welds, finish, dimensions of the mag catch hole, etc. Same can be said for any other magazine?
Wow, this is starting to smell like a damn DI vs Gas Piston thread :) I'm just saying. If you are in the army, it's probably out of your hands. If your a civie, who cares buy what works...
Indeed it is.
If there's a "You're an idiot..." message to be had, it's this: You're an idiot if you fall in love with your magazines, regardless of their manufacturer, configuration, or material.
I'm not a music guy. It's background noise, to me, so there's only two types or genres: music I like, and music I don't like.
In that idiom, there's only two types of magazines: Those that you have function-tested and are confident will run, and those that failed and should be fed into a wood-chipper.
I own and use 4 different brands of polymer mags and USGI; the only truly distinguishing feature of any of them is that THEY FUNCTION, and that they cease to exist once they no longer do so.....and I remain cognizant of the fact that there will come a time when they will FAIL. Disposable items, like Bic lighters.
Having said that, the thread is a heads-up regarding a shift in Army policy, with the likely intent of the OP being that of max dissemination. Let's keep the Less Filling/Tastes Great arguments to the existing threads that speak to such (one of which is cited), if you please.
As for how one becomes tagged as a SME, how it's defined aboard M4C is clearly spoken to HERE: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=1497
If one wants to run his jib about SMEs, it's be best to do so after having read the stickied threads that hang in every subforum we have, which exist for a reason, such as defining precisely THAT sort of info.
If OPCON to a combantant commander, his rules are in effect.
It doesn't matter what your state's policy is, when activated you are under Title X, and what your state says means absolutely nothing.
Ding, Ding, Ding!
I am willing to bet they claim an upper is not a personal weapon, so they are not in violation of GO1.
They could still have issues returning to the CONUS though.
I encouraged my guys to buy/shoot AR-15/M-4 weapons, but only to get better with their issued weapons. What advantage is their to using a civilian upper on a DoD weapon?
Indeed it is.
If there's a "You're an idiot..." message to be had, it's this: You're an idiot if you fall in love with your magazines, regardless of their manufacturer, configuration, or material.
This cannot be stressed enough IMHO.
I do prefer one type over another, but I still own both.
I am willing to place my life in the hands of both, I just know that one will last longer then the other, but in the end, both will end up failing at some point, hopefully not when I need them for real.
And i'm still waiting for my check from magpul for pimpin' their mags.......been waiting several years. Sometimes I don't think it'll ever show.....:(
I agree totally with Pat. If personal experience is different than what some SME on hear are saying, I am going with personal experience. Once again I wonder how one becomes a SME.......I have personally seen crap on here that I just can't believe people are supporting product "A" over product "B". Only thing I can figure is that they are getting freebies or it looks good in "Call of Duty, Modern Warfare". We must remember, and I am NOT knocking 90% of our true SMEs on here, if you are an "Instructor/Trainer", you got to have some kinda of new technique or new tool to make you relevant. Or you start bashing something that a majority of people have NOT had any issues with because you need to market your stuff. I love these guys who always say "If you like this, your an idiot." Then they never back up what they are saying with some actual research or examples. Then magically they appear with a new product endorsement. They are as fake as any pop singer on MTV selling records. Any acclaimed SME out there giving info just so they can make a buck can burn in hell......
In order to become a SME on this forum, you must be (or have been) attached to a Tier 1 unit or a direct action guy. Most of the SME's on here are either in or were in a Tier 1 unit.
When they give a recommendation, it is not to be taken lightly or blown off.
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-07-12, 10:13
Hey man, where are you getting this from? It's not true at all. Or are you just trying to keep all the pre-bans for yourself? :secret:
NYS Penal Code 265.00 section 23
23. "Large capacity ammunition feeding device" means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device, manufactured after September thirteenth, nineteen hundred ninety-four, that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition; provided, however, that such term does not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition."
I was wrong I mixed things up in my head thanks for correcting me
Just so I'm tracking on what Strider5.56 is saying...the guys that make and sell millions of mags to the US Government are paying me to subvert PMAG sales to an extremely small subculture of shooting sport and MIL/LE enthusiasts to enhance their bottom line by selling a couple more dozen mags a year to former PMAG converts?
You know why I use GI mags? Because they appear to work as wonderfully\poorly as Lancer L5s or PMAGs for 1000000% more free in terms of what they cost me. I can use new ones every day and throw them out and not run out. PMAGs are fine. Use them. Feed my friends at Magpul's kids....I like those guys a lot.
Also, in you guys quest for proof of stuff...dudes get fired for sharing test reports. Procurement data is 100% classified for everything the units test\buy\issue. Like lose your clearance, career, job, just to prove something you have no need to prove to "the Internet". So you can see why it's not a good deal to show how many stoppages X had over Y in independent testing by outside contractors, regardless of the digital myths that would be crushed. In specialized units nothing bought or issued is an accident or one guy's uneducated opinion...it's done for a reason that I wager is more scientific, professional, thorough, and f-ing expensive than anywhere else. Its what is called EEFI by these various unit's commanders...it doesn't mean "Essential for Everyone on the ****ing Internet" unfortunately.
The information posted by anyone here is worth EXACTLY what you pay for it...
Matt Edwards
05-07-12, 14:36
Jonny,
You hit it on the head.
Also, in you guys quest for proof of stuff...dudes get fired for sharing test reports. Procurement data is 100% classified for everything the units test\buy\issue. Like lose your clearance, career, job, just to prove something you have no need to prove to "the Internet". So you can see why it's not a good deal to show how many stoppages X had over Y in independent testing by outside contractors, regardless of the digital myths that would be crushed.
That's a real shame. Valuable info kept from good people who could benefit from it. Such is life.
The information posted by anyone here is worth EXACTLY what you pay for it...
Disagree. Plenty of people who run their guns hard, teach courses, have time downrange, all share personal experience here with failures or lack-thereof, all of which is worth way more than what I'm "paying" for it. In lieu of having the actual government data which you say is classified, I'll take their experiential evidence and value it according to their experience level, which is generally pretty high.
OK, how bout "your obligation to take any of the information here as fact is nonexistent"?
Strider5.56
05-07-12, 19:45
Ok, for clarification, I did get off track with my post. Pat's post about information different from his experience got me thinking. My comment was not geared towards magazines, it was a different piece of equipment. The reason why I kept it vague was to simply follow rule one. Which is:
Posting Rules
1) Derogatory Remarks – Please do not post any comments that are intentional personal attacks against other members. (Including, but not limited to, name calling, comments of a racial, religious or sexual nature.) Debate is welcome and encouraged. Personal attacks, and name calling, serve no purpose in the exchange and debate of good information. Please be respectful to your fellow shooting enthusiasts whether they are new shooters or seasoned veterans.
I didn't want to bash a SME and a moderator all in the same post. It might piss some people off. I just know that each one has an opinion on two topics that couldn't be further from reality, and the one has nothing to tell us to back up his negative opinion about a piece of equipment. All he can say is "piece of shit", however I can't seem to find anywhere on the internet what exactly his beef is. The other is giving out information about an agency when he has no clue. We contacted that agency's decision makers before we started testing which I was apart of. That's what my statement was about. I just think if you post an opinion, lets see some pictures or test results to solidify your claims. I apologize for being so vague, not for my complaint.
Littlelebowski
05-07-12, 20:17
Most of the SMEs on here are pretty accessible and genial, should you want to say, ask them a question.
train of abuses
05-07-12, 20:22
Most of the SMEs on here are pretty accessible and genial, should you want to say, ask them a question.
Great point.
Strider5.56
05-07-12, 20:31
Most are top notch and awesome for giving us access to their time to pick their brains with questions.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
05-08-12, 00:46
Wow, what a shitfest this turned into...
Anyways, when I saw the title, it pissed me off at first, but the more I though about the reasoning behind it, the more I agreed with it.
First, the new tan followers address most of the issues we were having with follower tilt.
Second, mil guys are generally not gun guys, and if they are, they are generally not educated gun guys. So, they will buy whatever has the coolest packaging for the least amount of money on the PX gear queer wall. If that happens to be the newest shitty magazine, then thats what they will end up with. This new rule keep Pvt Joe from ****ing himself over, and keeps the unit standardized.
Third, imagine if the Army said you can buy your own armor as long as it can carry their plates. The super educated guys would spend the money to buy quality gear, the average joe would buy the Condor rig from the mil surplus store because it was cheap and looked cool. Sometimes (not all the time), its best to leave these decisions to the people who do the testing and can see the big picture.
In order to become a SME on this forum, you must be (or have been) attached to a Tier 1 unit or a direct action guy. Most of the SME's on here are either in or were in a Tier 1 unit.
When they give a recommendation, it is not to be taken lightly or blown off.
Some some of the SME's here are FAGs?
:p
Chillax, folks....it's all in good fun. FAG= Former Action Guy, for those who don't know.
Ok, for clarification, I did get off track with my post. Pat's post about information different from his experience got me thinking. My comment was not geared towards magazines, it was a different piece of equipment. The reason why I kept it vague was to simply follow rule one. Which is:
Posting Rules
1) Derogatory Remarks – Please do not post any comments that are intentional personal attacks against other members. (Including, but not limited to, name calling, comments of a racial, religious or sexual nature.) Debate is welcome and encouraged. Personal attacks, and name calling, serve no purpose in the exchange and debate of good information. Please be respectful to your fellow shooting enthusiasts whether they are new shooters or seasoned veterans.
I didn't want to bash a SME and a moderator all in the same post. It might piss some people off. I just know that each one has an opinion on two topics that couldn't be further from reality, and the one has nothing to tell us to back up his negative opinion about a piece of equipment. All he can say is "piece of shit", however I can't seem to find anywhere on the internet what exactly his beef is. The other is giving out information about an agency when he has no clue. We contacted that agency's decision makers before we started testing which I was apart of. That's what my statement was about. I just think if you post an opinion, lets see some pictures or test results to solidify your claims. I apologize for being so vague, not for my complaint.
As a general rule of thumb, if you can't be specific it's a good idea not to post. Another good rule of thumb is not to post in one thread simply because you have an ax to grind relative to a subject completely unrelated.
Some some of the SME's here are FAGs?
:p
Chillax, folks....it's all in good fun. FAG= Former Action Guy, for those who don't know.
It is also "Fighter Attack Guys on Wing Side of the house
Suwannee Tim
05-08-12, 05:23
..... LMT piston upper break on him in a fire fight.
Do you know any details of the failure?
I had a buddy take a piston upper over, same time frame, and his broke in contact. I won't MF the company in question because of the totally awesome efforts of one guy there to make it right. The company fortunately had one guy who went out of his way, stepped up and got him squared away (thank you JD), but the nature of the failure would have been impossible had he been using his issued MK18 because the failure was specific to the piston system. It wasn't an LMT though.
In line with the original topic, these policies are meant to include and address the lowest common denominator...IE not the people who post here. LCD means the guy using his CAA round-counter magazine, the guy using TAPCO mags, the guy who bought the Chinese AR drum, the guy with the NCSTAR laser on his rifle and a bungee cord sling through the rear loop of his A2 stock. So yeah, it's stupid to all of us. It's not for all of us. It's for EVERYONE. And "everyone" is only as smart as the dumbest/most ill-informed guy in the crowd.
Do you know any details of the failure?
No, I didn't care at the time, had other things to worry about.
I had a buddy take a piston upper over, same time frame, and his broke in contact. I won't MF the company in question because of the totally awesome efforts of one guy there to make it right. The company fortunately had one guy who went out of his way, stepped up and got him squared away (thank you JD), but the nature of the failure would have been impossible had he been using his issued MK18 because the failure was specific to the piston system. It wasn't an LMT though.
In line with the original topic, these policies are meant to include and address the lowest common denominator...IE not the people who post here. LCD means the guy using his CAA round-counter magazine, the guy using TAPCO mags, the guy who bought the Chinese AR drum, the guy with the NCSTAR laser on his rifle and a bungee cord sling through the rear loop of his A2 stock. So yeah, it's stupid to all of us. It's not for all of us. It's for EVERYONE. And "everyone" is only as smart as the dumbest/most ill-informed guy in the crowd.
I don’t like that these companies, directly and indirectly, are advertising to Soldiers that they have something that is better, something that they know hasn’t been tested they way they would be tested if the Army was buying it. I don’t care how the company stepped up to the Soldiers whose lives they risked in combat, they should be called out so others will not make the same mistake.
I had a buddy take a piston upper over, same time frame, and his broke in contact. I won't MF the company in question because of the totally awesome efforts of one guy there to make it right. The company fortunately had one guy who went out of his way, stepped up and got him squared away (thank you JD), but the nature of the failure would have been impossible had he been using his issued MK18 because the failure was specific to the piston system. It wasn't an LMT though.
In line with the original topic, these policies are meant to include and address the lowest common denominator...IE not the people who post here. LCD means the guy using his CAA round-counter magazine, the guy using TAPCO mags, the guy who bought the Chinese AR drum, the guy with the NCSTAR laser on his rifle and a bungee cord sling through the rear loop of his A2 stock. So yeah, it's stupid to all of us. It's not for all of us. It's for EVERYONE. And "everyone" is only as smart as the dumbest/most ill-informed guy in the crowd.
The decision makes sense considering this. However couldn't the Army just have an approved mag list?
trlcavscout
05-08-12, 22:31
I agree with this decision. The last thing i would have wanted would have been something i bought to go down in a fight costing someone their life mine or a buddys. My A2 had issues but the M4 ran good on GI mags, but when stuff quit working it got fixed i didnt have to try to replace. I have been running GI mags for years in service and personally and yes they are disposable just like Pmags, but i had no problems with non-wornout mags.
The decision makes sense considering this. However couldn't the Army just have an approved mag list?
That would require them to test every magazine on the market to see if it meets the minimum standard. Why spend the money when they already have one.
From what I have read in the past few days the Army isn’t impressed with the performance of the polymer magazines that have been used in testing.
However couldn't the Army just have an approved mag list?
They do. Here it is:
1. NSN 1005-00-561-7200 (improved magazine); and
2. NSN 1005-00-921-5004 (older magazine; use until exhaustion).
scoutfsu99
05-10-12, 17:51
They do. Here it is:
1. NSN 1005-00-561-7200 (improved magazine); and
2. NSN 1005-00-921-5004 (older magazine; use until exhaustion).
Did the PMag suddenly lose it's NSN too?
No, it hasn't, but having an NSN doesn't indicate approval for use.
scoutfsu99
05-10-12, 20:16
No, it hasn't, but having an NSN doesn't indicate approval for use.
Roger. They were issuing these things by the thousands. I wonder what's going to happen to them?.....
Aren't these the same people that only approve CLP, fought painting weapons tooth and nail, and said that changing out a stock on a weapon would cause functional problems?
Aren't these the same people that only approve CLP, fought painting weapons tooth and nail, and said that changing out a stock on a weapon would cause functional problems?
Ever decision needs to be analyzed on it's own merit. The issue at hand has nothing to do with your examples.
On another note, I don't think cpl is all that bad. I use what I consider superior products but clp is simple and that's fine for a lot of folks. It performs a lot of functions, none ideally. You just have to reapply frequently as far as lubrication goes. If you told me that I had to go into battle with limited supplies, a bottle of clp would be fine me.
scoutfsu99
05-10-12, 20:39
I would say at the very least its a trend of puzzling and disappointing decisions by TACOM. I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm on board with everyone that has been saying don't fall in love with your mag.
CLP is fine but there is better stuff out there. It'll definitely do in a pinch. What if TACOM were to say that the only authorized sling was the web sling that comes with the M4/16 and anything else was not allowed? Would you give up your VCAS's, VTACs, etc? I'm not trying to play the "what if" game to death but given their previous decisions, I don't think its outside the realm of possibilities.
ffhounddog
05-11-12, 07:41
The biggest issues have been from what everyone has been saying. People buying XYZ brand magazine and it does not work. Have you seen what AAFES sells to Joe?
It is a smart move from what I have seen due to "Fobbit shit". I have Joe spending 300 bucks on some crazy 100 round drum in country and I tell him not no but Hell no and he goes and runs to IG, facebook, or his mom sends a letter to their congressman that he cannot use it. Yes it has happened, yes he got the 100 round drum from AAFES. Why I do not have a clue. As a commander I see a reason for this. As a shooter I "might" know better but in the grand scheme of things at least they come out of issued mag pouches better than most polymer magazines.
karlglen101
05-11-12, 19:57
Okay Industries branded as Colt or NHMTG.
Where can you find these mags with the tan followers? What's the difference in the followers? Are the tan followers also by magpul? Everything I searched turned up the green followers.
I have Joe spending 300 bucks on some crazy 100 round drum in country and I tell him not no but Hell no and he goes and runs to IG, facebook, or his mom sends a letter to their congressman that he cannot use it.
Man, if that doesn't make you rage I don't know what will. I can see how retarded reporters and nosy / overbearing mothers could turn that into a "troops not getting or allowed to use the best equipment" story really fast. I've had to deal with riled up and patently wrong parents before also, and as you know it takes every last drop of willpower to not "let them have it." Does the story at least end in your soldier being rebuked?
I think most are missing the point behind this. It has nothing to do with mag y being better than mag x, it does, however, have everything to do with waning military budgets, a butt-load of "improved" mags in the .mil supply system, and "Big .Mil" trying to reign in the discretionary pre deployment spending of unit commanders. Times are going to get really tight and .mil is going to cut everywhere it can.
skullworks
05-12-12, 08:00
Where can you find these mags with the tan followers? What's the difference in the followers? Are the tan followers also by magpul? Everything I searched turned up the green followers.
Some threads for you:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=86869
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81074
The TACOM release is just a reissue of their existing policy that has been in effect since shortly after the PMag was released.
PMags are the most prevalent aftermarket magazines in Afghanistan (and Iraq before the draw down). out numbering all other "Non USGI" Magazines, combined for a reason.
The current PMag outclasses a USGI in durability and reliability and almost every other aspect. Due to the amount of PMags actively deployed we can show statical proof of this.
Despite over a million PMags being purchased through official US govt channels by combat units over the last 5 years, we have never been able to open a dialog with those in military procurement to see what is needed to be added to the approved list.
This doesn't stop us, we just set our own standards and build to them.
The current PMag outclasses a USGI in durability and reliability and almost every other aspect. Due to the amount of PMags actively deployed we can show statical proof of this.
This is interesting to me. Is this something you can but won't do? Or will / would you share it here? Thanks.
PMAGs actually failed Army testing several years ago for the following reasons
1) rough handling at -60F causes damage/cracks in feed lip
2) immersion in MIL-L-46000 Lubricant Semi-Fluid Automatic Weapons - LAW and 804-01-284-3982; DEET Insect Repellent causes stress crazing/cracking
The extreme handling in -60 was something we heard about very early on in some memos. In this case a cracked PMag that still functioned was considered a failure but a USGI with bent feed lips and/or non functioning due to the cold was considered a pass.
For extreme cold we have PMags functioning in places like Alaska as well as Afghanistan for half a decade now with great success. Early MRevs were tested for breakage down to -30 and have steadily improved in performance/strength so a PMag will function reliability in these extreme temperatures long after the USGI magazine will cease to operate.
As for DEET/LAW resistance. We pass every Federal standard published for resistance that is applied to the M16/M4 weapon system. As part of our testing program PMags are subjected to long term direct contact with over 10 different types of chemicals required to pass these tests. For the DEET test we actually completely submerge the PMags in DEET for days, wash them off and shoot them. It has zero effect.
I suspect this information came from very early window mags which would craze in contact with DEET (but the mag itself would function just fine). The window material was changed out to a DEET proof material about 4 years ago.
This is interesting to me. Is this something you can but won't do? Or will / would you share it here? Thanks.
We are limited in what we can share publicly but here is one example.
In our lab testing we show that a PMag has far greater impact and crush strength than a USGI magazine. Our feedback from the field confirmed that in an active environment the PMag far out lasts the USGI magazine in similar conditions.
However it wasn't until after 1 million PMags (Export) were deployed as standard issue to UK troops in Afghanistan that we could show hard statistical proof that the PMags had to be replenished at a MUCH MUCH slower rate than the standard issue metal magazines they replaced.
We are limited in what we can share publicly but here is one example.
In our lab testing we show that a PMag has far greater impact and crush strength than a USGI magazine. Our feedback from the field confirmed that in an active environment the PMag far out lasts the USGI magazine in similar conditions.
However it wasn't until after 1 million PMags (Export) were deployed as standard issue to UK troops in Afghanistan that we could show hard statistical proof that the PMags had to be replenished at a MUCH MUCH slower rate than the standard issue metal magazines they replaced.
Very interesting information, thank you for sharing.
skullworks
05-14-12, 07:16
..than the standard issue metal magazines they replaced.
Sir, thank you for chiming in - very interesting info. The metal magazines the EMAGs replaced are HK's steel mags, correct?
Jgraves1107
05-14-12, 09:36
This is just like our oil issue. We can't make gas out of it because it is not as good as the east's. A mag that fails should hit the ground and be left as junk. Pmags seem to work smoother for me. I have had miss feeds with the metal and non with magpul. I won't rebuild a mag if it fails.
gatorfan605
05-14-12, 09:56
This is just like our oil issue. We can't make gas out of it because it is not as good as the east's. A mag that fails should hit the ground and be left as junk. Pmags seem to work smoother for me. I have had miss feeds with the metal and non with magpul. I won't rebuild a mag if it fails.
I concur.
Early MRevs were tested for breakage down to -30 and have steadily improved in performance/strength so a PMag will function reliability in these extreme temperatures long after the USGI magazine will cease to operate.
All of your posts offer very interesting information. However when you say that PMags function "long after" the USGI's tend to fail in the cold, what is the basis or threshold that you believe normally caused the stated failures? Was it just a temperature issue, a lubricant issue or perhaps a combination?
https://acc.dau.mil/CommunityBrowser.aspx?id=510851&lang=en-US
Benefit/Value
Issue: TACOM has become aware of units ordering 30 rd. commercial (i.e. polymer, etc.) magazines for their M4/M16 family of weapons. The M4/M16 Army authorized magazines are the following: NSN 1005-00-561-7200 (improved magazine) and NSN 1005-00-921-5004 (older magazine; use until exhaustion).
Rest of the story at the link. Don't think many people will listen to this until its strictly enforced, there's a lot of us using PMAGS in the army. Ill keep using them and my TangoDown mags until I'm forced to stop.
FWIW, I read that and I don't take away any statement about good vs. bad, nor approved vs. not approved. It looks to me to imply be a goverment procurement issue. The operative word in that statement is "ordering".
Basically stop ordering more expensive parts when there is a lower cost alternative.
YMMV.
-john
Failure2Stop
05-14-12, 12:25
Sir, thank you for chiming in - very interesting info. The metal magazines the EMAGs replaced are HK's steel mags, correct?
They are indeed steel magazines made by HK, but they are not the same as the "AR" mags made initially for the 416.
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-14-12, 12:36
Man now I real wish they fit in my mag wells
All of your posts offer very interesting information. However when you say that PMags function "long after" the USGI's tend to fail in the cold, what is the basis or threshold that you believe normally caused the stated failures? Was it just a temperature issue, a lubricant issue or perhaps a combination?
We had a few testers in Alaska leave USGI magazines and PMags overnight during an Alaska winter (-40) and when shooting the mags the next day the USGIs had multiple stoppages compared to zero stoppages for the PMags.
Could be a combination of things but we need to do more testing to be sure.
It is hard to do an accurate cold weather test here in Colorado below -30, even with our environmental tester as the higher ambient temperature rapidly effects the results.
Grand58742
05-15-12, 02:08
Just as a matter of asking a question that I didn't see answered, but when I read this, I wondered something.
Units may use the older magazine NSN 1005-00-921-5004 with the green follower until exhausted.
Does the Army have an official criteria for inspecting and getting rid of old worn out magazines? Or is it unit/individual dependent?
There was finally a magazine lip gauge developed a couple years ago and is issued at I think the Company level.
Not enough, they should be at the platoon or even squad level if not to each soldier with their cleaning kit.
I've broken both types of mags, but Pmags have been harder to do so.
It's been policy for years, but some units have them as part of their issue gear. Some of the guys with the tan type headgear.
It's also understandable that they Army doesn't want people running around with Tapco mags, and it is easier to just ban all of them than to spend the money to test them and give an ok to certain brands, at least in specific conditions.
skullworks
05-15-12, 06:18
There was finally a magazine lip gauge developed a couple years ago and is issued at I think the Company level.
Not enough, they should be at the platoon or even squad level if not to each soldier with their cleaning kit.
This one (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=41033/Product/AR-15-M16-MAGAZINE-FEED-LIP-GAUGE)?
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-15-12, 07:02
If I had a bad mag I just tossed it and got another one. I dont know how it works in every unit but in mine it was simple mags were not signed for. Most time when we did our RIP we recived or gave away our extra mags to the other team along with all the extra ammo.
snackgunner
05-15-12, 07:35
Man now I real wish they fit in my mag wells
What mag wells do your PMags not fit in? Ive heard of PMags not dropping freely from certain lowers, but the only mag wells ive read of PMags not fitting into are Superior Arms and Armalite lowers.
This one (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=41033/Product/AR-15-M16-MAGAZINE-FEED-LIP-GAUGE)?
This one.
WEAR CHECK TOOL (feed lips gage) NSN 5120-01-574-0036
Brownells gets $60 for their feed lips gage. If the army is paying a quarter that it isn't going to get issued at squad level, much less individual level. If it's throw away, they will all get "lost." If it's equipment, the paperwork trail will multiply the cost many fold and lots will still get lost.
Yes, it's $60 at full MSRP, 20 bucks less for general wholesale...not sure it's the same tool being referenced to as the wear gauge
Unfortunately that means that you're going to have to find the armorer, and try and convince him to check your mags, or let you borrow the tool. At least issue them at the platoon level to the PL or PSG.
The fact that there are a ton of worn out mags that are still working most of the time is a good statement about their design and reliability.
5120-01-574-0036
that NSN costs the Army $91.66 ea. It also says that the item has a shelf-life/perishability of 24 months. Buying one every 24 months and checking that each magazine is good should be what the armorer is doing anyways. I have mine do the 15 round bump test that was mentioned earlier.
Also, the -10 manual only calls for 1 magazine per rifle as standard (BII), and the other 6 are only if the command requires them (AAL). That's the difference between Basic Issue Items and Additional Authorized Items.
I purchased all brand new GI mags for each of my Soldiers for this deployment. I made them sign for them form the arms room, too. I'm not in a combat arms unit, so things like weapons and shooting aren't at the top of the list...but it's one less thing that I have to worry about.
The PMAG NSN (1005-01-576-5164) costs $16.28 each and has a non-deteriorating shelf life. The USGI Mag NSNs (1005-01-561-7200) and (1005-00-921-5004) costs $9.13 each and has a non-deteriorating shelf life. At a cost difference of $7.15 each, you can outfit a 'normal' company element (~100 Soldeirs) for $11,396 (PMAG) vs. $6,391 (USGI).
Here's the 'So What:' You can buy all new PMAGs (expensive magazines) for the deployed strength of my entire BRIGADE for less than the cost of ONE Soldier's SGLI.
And that's without getting into the nerdy parts of the US Army supply system.
Markasaurus
05-17-12, 18:16
https://acc.dau.mil/CommunityBrowser.aspx?id=510851&lang=en-US
Benefit/Value
Issue: TACOM has become aware of units ordering 30 rd. commercial (i.e. polymer, etc.) magazines for their M4/M16 family of weapons. The M4/M16 Army authorized magazines are the following: NSN 1005-00-561-7200 (improved magazine) and NSN 1005-00-921-5004 (older magazine; use until exhaustion).
Rest of the story at the link. Don't think many people will listen to this until its strictly enforced, there's a lot of us using PMAGS in the army. Ill keep using them and my TangoDown mags until I'm forced to stop.
that link doesn't work for me -
Chevy seems to like pmags.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCFXcOOb4jc&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
knoxtnshooter
05-26-12, 00:53
Sorry to bump a (somewhat) old thread... but my unit (a regular-guy type infantry BN) is deployed in RC-E and just found out about this.
Unless our 1SG goes full retard and actually tries to make people stop using PMAGS, I don't see this changing anything. They are just simply too widely accepted as "better" in this unit. I've never seen an issue with PMAGS, other than people thinking they can get away with less lube because they run them. Back when I was a joe, I offered my CPL team leader who was a "hardened combat vet" some lube during a range and he said "I don't need lube, I use PMAGS".
That's just the Army though, at least in my experience. Now that I'm an NCO I try to square my guys away on gear without being a dictator. Yeah, I'm not gonna let a dude run out into the hills with a C-MAG, but if he wants to try some TDs or PMAGS why not let him learn things by his own experience (even if I think he's wasting his money).
I agree with the sentiment that the USGI mag's only shortcoming is that of people who can't get rid of them. I only use USGIs with tan followers and Ranger plates. I number them and check them often, and down-load and clean them regularly. All my guys number their mags per our squad SOP, and if they have a mag-related failure that mag is toast (destroyed). Even on a shit-hole COP there's no shortage of GI mags and that's the one of the attractions for me.
The Infantry needs a Warrant Officer position that uses 11B as a feeder that is the armament/shooting/all-things-bang SME. Its crazy that we have to rely on a flunky SPC as our armorer because he went to a 40 hour course on how to fill out 2404s.
The Infantry needs a Warrant Officer position that uses 11B as a feeder that is the armament/shooting/all-things-bang SME. Its crazy that we have to rely on a flunky SPC as our armorer because he went to a 40 hour course on how to fill out 2404s.
So you're basically saying the USA needs a USMC style "BN Gunner"?
Pistol Shooter
05-26-12, 16:33
I'm a civilian and salute all of you who fight for our country. Thank you so much for your service, it's appreciated more than you can ever imagine. :smile:
My Pmags have always functioned with my AR's. My GI mags have not.
Many of them have been problematic and I've thrown them right into the trash can.
shootist1970
05-26-12, 17:06
"Okay", "Colt","Brownells", "Universal" aluminum bodied all have worked well for me.
However, that said ANY COMPANY CAN MAKE A LEMMON ONCE IN A WHILE!!
This why smart money goes on thoroughly testing each magazine you personally own to find your most reliable no matter what the maker because that moment of "Anal Pucker" is not the time to find out one of your mags has a nasty habit of "Shi**ing the bed!!"
My wife sent me a link to the Military.com article thinking I would find it interesting. I found it funny that my wife even heard of this issue. If I had asked my wife, in the past, what she thought a P magazine was she would probably have told me it was a periodical on urine health.
The point is this issue is getting out to people who are not in the Mil and all they are hearing is that the Army is taking away the best equipment from our men and giving them something substandard.
This could be a good thing for Magpul. If Moms and Dads start hearing about this and calling there congressmen… Well you can see where this could go.
Maybe just maybe it could force the Mil to conduct a complete testing of commercial magazines and in about ten years we should have the results.
What is the effect of TACOMs position on other services? Is there some sort of cooperative/multi-service authority there, or will others just follow their lead?
Army Chief
05-27-12, 11:18
The Infantry needs a Warrant Officer position that uses 11B as a feeder that is the armament/shooting/all-things-bang SME.
You're likely on to something here, as a 110A Warrant Officer MOS would definitely provide the appropriate level of specialization and expertise. The problem would lie with integration and career modeling (i.e. what should the career path of a 110A look like, and how do you integrate him at the right levels of command, etc.?). The USMC and SF community would likely be able to provide some useful examples of what "right" should look like.
The lead for this would have to come from the Infantry Branch Proponency Office at Fort Benning, and without a champion in the front office of the command group -- or serious grass roots support from some well-placed Colonels wearing crossed-rifles -- there is little chance of this going anywhere. Since the branch has no real precedent or doctrinal basis for it, there is more than a little inertia that would have to be overcome. Also, given that high-performing 11B20/30s have a long-standing tendency to move into the Special Operations community, you would have to convince them that staying in the branch as a 110A WO was something worth pursuing.
AC
Also, given that high-performing 11B20/30s have a long-standing tendency to move into the Special Operations community, you would have to convince them that staying in the branch as a 110A WO was something worth pursuing.
I would jump on something like this in a heartbeat.
I haven't gone to SOF cause, well, I would kinda feel like I was giving up...
A WO in the Bn would greatly improve the Bn's proficiency in a LOT of areas, if he had the weight to get the CoC to listen to him...
Imagine one at the Company level, who in addition to being a SME on things that go boom, was also a SME on planning and coordinating... That would really free up the CO to command...
A WO in the Bn would greatly improve the Bn's proficiency in a LOT of areas, if he had the weight to get the CoC to listen to him...
Imagine one at the Company level, who in addition to being a SME on things that go boom, was also a SME on planning and coordinating... That would really free up the CO to command...
Only the Officers with the cranial/rectal inversion don't listen to their Chiefs, period.
If there's a Chief planning the training, why do we have the NCOs? Why is there a Company XO to coordinate the resources for the Platoon Sergeants?
Sorry to derail this thread, please return to your originally scheduled debate:
The Army's problem is that Soldiers only touch their weapons with live bullets once or twice a year. This leads to Soldiers losing the perishable skill of knowing what right looks like, as far as weapons are concerned. I try and get weapons in my Soldiers' hands at least once a month. In my current neck of the woods, it's a little bit easier. I have exclusive control over my own 25m range.
It's not the fact that I'm a gun nut and I'm trying to force this down everyone's throat. It's the fact that in the 0.01 percent chance that someone needs to use their weapon, they REALLY need to use it, and that weapon is the only thing that will fix that problem.
What is the effect of TACOMs position on other services? Is there some sort of cooperative/multi-service authority there, or will others just follow their lead?
The Marine Corps position on it is that The PMAG has not been formally qualified for use in any DoD 5.56 weapon system.
And recommends that the Operating Forces use the currently approved GI Aluminum Magazine or Improved GI Aluminum Magazine for all 5.56mm rifle systems. If there is an operational requirement for a higher capacity magazine or non-aluminum magazine, coordinate with Deputy Commandant (DC) Combat Development & Integration and DC Plans, Policies & Operations via the UNS process to conduct testing for the qualification/approval of any new magazine. These tests will require human factor, interoperability, and reliability testing.
shootist1970
05-27-12, 15:33
My post on reliable metal mags was not to take away anything from Pmags or Emags(i have both)
But i can see them being suseptible to petro chemicals as a major concern.....................but the brittleness in -60F temps? Just where are our troops operating in -60f sustained temps? I'm not talking windchill. At -60F sustained temps our troops themselves are going to suffer operation failure!!
WARPIG [USMC]
05-27-12, 16:00
My post on reliable metal mags was not to take away anything from Pmags or Emags(i have both)
But i can see them being suseptible to petro chemicals as a major concern.....................but the brittleness in -60F temps? Just where are our troops operating in -60f sustained temps? I'm not talking windchill. At -60F sustained temps our troops themselves are going to suffer operation failure!!
Seriously! They'll be lucky if they can pull on the trigger!
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
The Marine Corps position on it is that The PMAG has not been formally qualified for use in any DoD 5.56 weapon system.
And recommends that the Operating Forces use the currently approved GI Aluminum Magazine or Improved GI Aluminum Magazine for all 5.56mm rifle systems. If there is an operational requirement for a higher capacity magazine or non-aluminum magazine, coordinate with Deputy Commandant (DC) Combat Development & Integration and DC Plans, Policies & Operations via the UNS process to conduct testing for the qualification/approval of any new magazine. These tests will require human factor, interoperability, and reliability testing.
Out of curiosity why has this qualification/approval process and testing not already been conducted or atleast initiated? Simply because no one has put forth the operational requirement as you note or another reason?
Out of curiosity why has this qualification/approval process and testing not already been conducted or atleast initiated? Simply because no one has put forth the operational requirement as you note or another reason?
Magpul submitted an Unsolicited Proposa for their “Magpul PMAG 30 Round 5.56mm Composite Magazine" to the US Army. At that time the magazines didn't pass all the tests and it was deemed as not qualified. However, some of the test criteria may not have been that realistic or relevant. Like a loaded magazine 5 foot drop test at -60 degrees F.
TacMedic556
05-27-12, 19:59
Good.
With the big government money out of the way the price on PMAGS will stay low, and us civilian and LE blokes can afford superior mags at the continued low prices. Our gain, their loss.
Like ammunition getting gobbled up by DHS and military, the price just keeps rising on everything they want. PMAGS will be the one thing we can continue to not have to compete for.
Thank you.
These tests will require human factor, interoperability, and reliability testing.
Is the PMAG family of magazines STANAG compliant? I would think/hope so.
I've heard that the PMAGs don't work that well in the HK416, but the EMAGs work fine. I don't have any EMAGs to look and measure the differences between them. I also don't have an HK416 to do any personal testing. If anyone wants to loan me one I won't object.
As others have said "NO!".
General Order #1 prohibits personal firearms in-theater (thank you Norman).
I remember this when I deployed for Desert Shield/ Storm. As we were departing Saudi after the war and going thru MP Customs, there stood a 6 foot plus full bird Colonel wearing a non-issue shoulder holster with a 44 magnum revolver in it. I guess rank has its privleges.
knoxtnshooter
05-28-12, 22:59
You're likely on to something here, as a 110A Warrant Officer MOS would definitely provide the appropriate level of specialization and expertise. The problem would lie with integration and career modeling (i.e. what should the career path of a 110A look like, and how do you integrate him at the right levels of command, etc.?). The USMC and SF community would likely be able to provide some useful examples of what "right" should look like.
The lead for this would have to come from the Infantry Branch Proponency Office at Fort Benning, and without a champion in the front office of the command group -- or serious grass roots support from some well-placed Colonels wearing crossed-rifles -- there is little chance of this going anywhere. Since the branch has no real precedent or doctrinal basis for it, there is more than a little inertia that would have to be overcome. Also, given that high-performing 11B20/30s have a long-standing tendency to move into the Special Operations community, you would have to convince them that staying in the branch as a 110A WO was something worth pursuing.
AC
I understand the amount of BS that would have to be overcome. I kind of see the Army as "too big to change" as this would require a huge shift at the BN level. I'm by no means qualified to speak at the strategic level, I just recognize the hole in my own unit.
I am one who would like to move into that kind of WO position, but know that if one were implemented it would be long after my time. As it is, I will be reclassing out of 11B before it's too late.
And my unit got to shoot a ton in the year lead up to this deployment, and guess what... here we are... still in need of a SME. Shooting and "getting reps" is great, but the reps have to be quality. I can't even get time off to attend a carbine class on my own dime when we are in the rear.
Sorry for the derail, its mostly my fault. I'll find a more relevant thread to further this conversation.
Good.
With the big government money out of the way the price on PMAGS will stay low, and us civilian and LE blokes can afford superior mags at the continued low prices. Our gain, their loss.
Like ammunition getting gobbled up by DHS and military, the price just keeps rising on everything they want. PMAGS will be the one thing we can continue to not have to compete for.
Thank you.
Not sure if trolling...
Is the PMAG family of magazines STANAG compliant? I would think/hope so.
I've heard that the PMAGs don't work that well in the HK416, but the EMAGs work fine. I don't have any EMAGs to look and measure the differences between them. I also don't have an HK416 to do any personal testing. If anyone wants to loan me one I won't object.
The new M3 PMag which is in final testing has the EMag geometry on the top portion to allow it to be used in both M4 and HK416/M27 systems.
The PMag M3 also is stronger, has a slim line floorplate, new gripping texture front and rear and a rear stop to prevent over travel when switching from M27 to M4 platforms.
Magpul submitted an Unsolicited Proposa for their “Magpul PMAG 30 Round 5.56mm Composite Magazine" to the US Army. At that time the magazines didn't pass all the tests and it was deemed as not qualified. However, some of the test criteria may not have been that realistic or relevant. Like a loaded magazine 5 foot drop test at -60 degrees F.
This evaluation was conducted in 2008 and at the time the clear window in the Maglevel PMag was affected by chemicals such as DEET. The regular PMag has always been DEET proof.
This window material was switched out over 4 years ago with the M Rev PMag and since then ALL PMag variants have been 100% DEET Proof.
Current PMags pass every Federal standard published for resistance that is applied to the M16/M4 weapon system. As part of our testing program PMags are subjected to long term direct contact with over 10 different types of chemicals required to pass these tests. For the DEET test we actually completely submerge the PMags in DEET for days, wash them off and shoot them. It has zero effect.
Extreme cold is a tricky one. In this test, a cracked PMag that still functioned was considered a failure but a USGI with bent feed lips and non functioning due to the cold was considered a pass.
Outside of this we have PMags functioning in places like Alaska as well as Afghanistan for over five years now with great success. Early MRevs were tested for breakage down to -30 and have steadily improved in performance/strength so it will function reliability in these extreme temperatures long after the USGI magazine will cease to operate.
skullworks
05-29-12, 19:31
The PMag M3 also is stronger, has a slim line floorplate, new gripping texture front and rear and a rear stop to prevent over travel when switching from M27 to M4 platforms.
And it turns you into a Sexual Tyrannosaurus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mijy8fpdI5c). Sorry, I just had to. :jester:
Looking forward to the M3! :agree:
That's ok. I'm still using mine! As far as using equipment that's not standard, I won't let my platoon use Walmart crap if they buy quality that's fine with me.
Next they won't let me use my adjustable two point. They can really kiss my a$$ if "they" think I'm ever going back to that BS strap they issue!!!!!!
TacMedic556
05-31-12, 11:12
Not sure if trolling...
Not trolling at all. Actually I am not sure I totally know the meaning of the term. As in fishing? Like trolling for something?
Just my opinion of the situation. In my opinion, not having to compete with Uncle Sam for products is a plus. The unlimited purchase of many defense type items by the USgov drives up demand and thus price as supply tends to lag or drop. This is basic economics.
I was just stating that it's no skin off my back if they choose to make the ignorant decision to ban pmags. Did you have a problem with that statement?
Tier One Arms
05-31-12, 12:57
When will the M3 be available to consumers?
Not trolling at all. Actually I am not sure I totally know the meaning of the term. As in fishing? Like trolling for something?
Just my opinion of the situation. In my opinion, not having to compete with Uncle Sam for products is a plus. The unlimited purchase of many defense type items by the USgov drives up demand and thus price as supply tends to lag or drop. This is basic economics.
I was just stating that it's no skin off my back if they choose to make the ignorant decision to ban pmags. Did you have a problem with that statement?
Basic Economics also states that there is economy of scale in production of large numbers. Okay makes millions of AR magazines for the .gov, but you can buy the civilian brand Okays called NHMTG retail for a couple bucks more than the .gov. pays by the trainload.
If Uncle Sam contracted with Pmag for ten million mags, the price might go up in the short term, as Pmag probably would sell every one they make to the .gov to get the contract started. But once they were making millions of them, the price would settle back down, might even be cheaper than the $14 or so they get for them now.
9mm, .45, .308 and .223 are military calibers--we compete with the .mil every time we buy them. Have you priced unMilitary calilbers lately? 45 Long Colt, anyone? .25 ACP?
skullworks
05-31-12, 16:57
Just for shit and giggles; did anyone notice a price hike for the Magpul E-MAGs over the past year or two? The UK MOD order for a million of them doesn't seem to have cramped Magpul's style. ;)
TacMedic556
05-31-12, 23:13
Basic Economics also states that there is economy of scale in production of large numbers. Okay makes millions of AR magazines for the .gov, but you can buy the civilian brand Okays called NHMTG retail for a couple bucks more than the .gov. pays by the trainload.
If Uncle Sam contracted with Pmag for ten million mags, the price might go up in the short term, as Pmag probably would sell every one they make to the .gov to get the contract started. But once they were making millions of them, the price would settle back down, might even be cheaper than the $14 or so they get for them now.
9mm, .45, .308 and .223 are military calibers--we compete with the .mil every time we buy them. Have you priced unMilitary calilbers lately? 45 Long Colt, anyone? .25 ACP?
I see your point. As they say, if you put 3 economists in a room, you will have 8 opinions on an issue. It is a complicated field for sure. The price may go up and as you pointed out, may go down later on. My point was in a way in jest and jovial fun. I can really care less if they adopt it. We know the quality and it is a bummer that the troops won't be afforded the option of using them. I also understand the desire for consistency in gear etc. It just seems that anytime the .gov buys anything it tends to push the price up a bit for the consumer. M855, M193, parts etc. all seemed to rise dramatically with the increased demand for overseas consumption over the past decade.
When will the M3 be available to consumers?
It is currently in final testing. Priority will go to non commercial orders with full release shortly there after. Cannot say when exactly but it should not be long now.
Basic Economics also states that there is economy of scale in production of large numbers. Okay makes millions of AR magazines for the .gov, but you can buy the civilian brand Okays called NHMTG retail for a couple bucks more than the .gov. pays by the trainload.
If Uncle Sam contracted with Pmag for ten million mags, the price might go up in the short term, as Pmag probably would sell every one they make to the .gov to get the contract started. But once they were making millions of them, the price would settle back down, might even be cheaper than the $14 or so they get for them now.
9mm, .45, .308 and .223 are military calibers--we compete with the .mil every time we buy them. Have you priced unMilitary calilbers lately? 45 Long Colt, anyone? .25 ACP?
We try not to change retail prices once we have set them. 12 years after their release, the original Magpuls are still $9.95 per three pack.
During the 2008 election run up we also did not change our retail or wholesale pricing on the PMag.
At USGI quantities the PMag would be comparable in price to the USGI for the government to purchase. This does not take into account the fact that the PMag needs to be replaced less frequently in operational environments than USGI magazines so less need to be ordered.
We could fulfill a large scale military order reasonably quickly due to our documented process controls and infrastructure. So the only thing I could see was an increase in order fulfillment on the retail level for a few months.
And it turns you into a Sexual Tyrannosaurus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mijy8fpdI5c). Sorry, I just had to. :jester:
Looking forward to the M3! :agree:
I am fortunate to see the M3 testing data and it sure gives me a hard on.
...
During the 2008 election run up we also did not change our retail or wholesale pricing on the PMag.
.
Rich, just so you know this is remembered, respected and appreciated by many of us!
Wow, what a shitfest this turned into...
Anyways, when I saw the title, it pissed me off at first, but the more I though about the reasoning behind it, the more I agreed with it.
First, the new tan followers address most of the issues we were having with follower tilt.
Second, mil guys are generally not gun guys, and if they are, they are generally not educated gun guys. So, they will buy whatever has the coolest packaging for the least amount of money on the PX gear queer wall. If that happens to be the newest shitty magazine, then thats what they will end up with. This new rule keep Pvt Joe from ****ing himself over, and keeps the unit standardized.
Third, imagine if the Army said you can buy your own armor as long as it can carry their plates. The super educated guys would spend the money to buy quality gear, the average joe would buy the Condor rig from the mil surplus store because it was cheap and looked cool. Sometimes (not all the time), its best to leave these decisions to the people who do the testing and can see the big picture.
I agree
The Military does extensive testing on equipment issued to our serviceman.
Only reason I think PMAG's got big is because of price
youtube video was retarded, it fits in the rifle after being ran over.. must be good. I put it in sand, it jammed.. still not bad.. can be used in an emergency situation....
I use GI mags
^ I guess you didn't see the dummy rounds being ejected from the PMAG for function testing.
They couldn't do that with the GI mags because, well, it wouldn't even seat in the rifle.
I'll stick with PMAGs.
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^ I guess you didn't see the dummy rounds being ejected from the PMAG for function testing.
They couldn't do that with the GI mags because, well, it wouldn't even seat in the rifle.
I'll stick with PMAGs.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I saw him eject the rounds from the pmag, if I remember correctly it jammed multiple times. If I'm in a life and death situation, that magazine failed.
I guess because the PMAG can withstand a HUMVEE running it over, it's better :rolleyes:
I need to drink the Magpul Kool-Aid :happy:
Not trolling at all. Actually I am not sure I totally know the meaning of the term. As in fishing? Like trolling for something?
In the context of the Internet, trolling means making a statement/post specifically for the purpose of angering some people.
Just my opinion of the situation. In my opinion, not having to compete with Uncle Sam for products is a plus. The unlimited purchase of many defense type items by the USgov drives up demand and thus price as supply tends to lag or drop. This is basic economics.
In my experience, economies of scale also drives prices down. Mil surp 5.56 and 9mm are cheap compared to rounds like 300 AAC and .40S&W. And Magpul wouldn't raise their prices because they're doing great business... if anything, they'd drop prices. Local retailers might increase prices, but that's always up to them.
I was just stating that it's no skin off my back if they choose to make the ignorant decision to ban pmags. Did you have a problem with that statement?
Would it be skin off your back if your SWAT unit's leadership decided to ban everything but USGI mags? I'm in Afghanistan now and the banning of PMAGs hasn't quite been noticed by my leadership yet, but when they do, I won't be terribly happy.
In the context of the Internet, trolling means making a statement/post specifically for the purpose of angering some people.
In my experience, economies of scale also drives prices down. Mil surp 5.56 and 9mm are cheap compared to rounds like 300 AAC and .40S&W. And Magpul wouldn't raise their prices because they're doing great business... if anything, they'd drop prices. Local retailers might increase prices, but that's always up to them.
Would it be skin off your back if your SWAT unit's leadership decided to ban everything but USGI mags? I'm in Afghanistan now and the banning of PMAGs hasn't quite been noticed by my leadership yet, but when they do, I won't be terribly happy.
I'm in N2KL, and my BC told us about the TACOM meesage. Then he loaded up his Pmag.
I saw him eject the rounds from the pmag, if I remember correctly it jammed multiple times. If I'm in a life and death situation, that magazine failed.
I guess because the PMAG can withstand a HUMVEE running it over, it's better :rolleyes:
I need to drink the Magpul Kool-Aid :happy:
I think you guys are referencing different videos. He's referring to the video where the pmag is abused by a Chevy. He then loads the magazine with dummy rounds and ejects them through his rifle.
I think you're referring to the video where the soldier is abusing his pmag with a humvee and then packs it full of sand. it survives the majority of the humvee test, while the usgi and hk mags do not. There were some ejection problems when the pmag was loaded with 29 rounds, then packed with sand, but usgi mags were not put through the same test to compare them.
based on durability alone I think I'd choose the pmag, no koolaid required.
I'm in N2KL, and my BC told us about the TACOM meesage. Then he loaded up his Pmag.
Do as I say, not as I do... :p
I'm actually wondering how this affects other services in the CJOA-A, as although the Army pretty much runs the Joint environment here, not everyone is Army.
The Army has enough problems as it is. I don't understand why the Army would limit Soldiers from using the best equipment intentionally.
Because we are returning to a peace time mentality. Time to start painting some rocks.
RogerinTPA
06-05-12, 16:34
Because we are returning to a peace time mentality. Time to start painting some rocks.
You got that right...
Because we are returning to a peace time mentality. Time to start painting some rocks.
I have had to do the stupidest things while being here.
TacMedic556
06-05-12, 23:41
Would it be skin off your back if your SWAT unit's leadership decided to ban everything but USGI mags? I'm in Afghanistan now and the banning of PMAGs hasn't quite been noticed by my leadership yet, but when they do, I won't be terribly happy.
Good points and point taken. I probably came off harsh. Hope you can keep your PMAGS stuffed in a pack somewhere, or use their followers at least. Be safe, take care.
Because we are returning to a peace time mentality. Time to start painting some rocks.
And I was thinking that painting grass in green and painting wheels on APCs with a toothpaste was Warsaw Pact special... :sarcastic:
Do as I say, not as I do... :p
Quite the opposite, actually. He told us about the message.
Littlelebowski
06-06-12, 09:33
Because we are returning to a peace time mentality. Time to start painting some rocks.
The truth.... It hurts.
Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2
Peacetime Army=Peacetime Rules.
Which means the next big deployment will be just as FUBAR'd as our initial entries into (insert name of country).
Corporate Army will write reports exonorating the GO/CSM's involved and we will throw money at the "new" (old) problem.
We needed a mass flushing of GO's when OEF/OIF started.
RogerinTPA
06-06-12, 11:52
Peacetime Army=Peacetime Rules.
Which means the next big deployment will be just as FUBAR'd as our initial entries into (insert name of country).
Corporate Army will write reports exonorating the GO/CSM's involved and we will throw money at the "new" (old) problem.
We needed a mass flushing of GO's when OEF/OIF started.
Big Army currently needs a massive flush of top heavy brain dead senior Officers and NCOs. Those that brought forward this stupid ruling, as well as the ACU and wasting a metric shitload of money, should be in the front of the line (then hung upside down by the scrotum sack with a big fish hook until dead). Speeding up the early retirement purge can not be overstated.
Big Army currently needs a massive flush of top heavy brain dead senior Officers and NCOs. Those that brought forward this stupid ruling, as well as the ACU and wasting a metric shitload of money, should be in the front of the line (then hung upside down by the scrotum sack with a big fish hook until dead). Speeding up the early retirement purge can not be overstated.
I think the US Army is a big boat, and thus cannot be turned too sharply, too quickly without upsetting everything. However, small changes over time are likely to not be noticed by the guy in the bottom of the boat being told to "Row Row Row"......
Welp that ban didn't last long
http://m.military.com/daily-news/2012/06/07/army-now-says-no-ban-on-rifle-magazines.html?ESRC=eb.nl
Failure2Stop
06-07-12, 10:46
Welp that ban didn't last long
http://m.military.com/daily-news/2012/06/07/army-now-says-no-ban-on-rifle-magazines.html?ESRC=eb.nl
As I read it, the initial message seemed to be more directed at unit funds use to procure magazines outside of the official supply system.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Very good news, and I wonder if the online exposure of the issue had any contribution towards getting it resolved.
Because we are returning to a peace time mentality. Time to start painting some rocks.
Sadly. Here I was hoping that the Army finally got their head out of their 4th point of contact. Stupid me.
RogerinTPA
06-07-12, 11:03
I think the US Army is a big boat, and thus cannot be turned too sharply, too quickly without upsetting everything. However, small changes over time are likely to not be noticed by the guy in the bottom of the boat being told to "Row Row Row"......
I think of it as being a gigantic glacier, with glacial movement, asinine logic, foresight, and thinking, as the predominant mind frame.
scoutfsu99
06-07-12, 11:06
Army officials maintain that TACOM’s message was intended to make soldiers aware that not all commercial magazines have gone through the same testing as the improved magazine, but concede that there are exceptions.
“The main message we want to get out is – although the Army does support and is confident in the improved, tan-follower magazine – we don’t want soldiers to fear punishment for using PMAGs,” Bourke said.
Way to back track. They put out a message knowing full well that the Regs guys are going to go full retard and ban anything not USGI. After an uproar, then they fall back on the position that they're just giving advice. They always word their advisements to sound like an order and if you don't follow it, your career hangs in the balance.
eta:
“At best, the message is incomplete; at worst the message allows soldiers to jump to the wrong conclusions,” Bourke said. “Maintenance Information Messages [from TACOM] are permissive. They are not an order. They are not a directive. All content and direction in those messages are optional for the recipient.”
Nice to see them actually admitting that. The problem is they issue these "optional messages" like they're orders and they know full well how the senior leadership is going to take it. This needs to be at the top and bottom of every message they put out -
They are not an order. They are not a directive. All content and direction in those messages are optional for the recipient.”
It's not an "order"...just a "suggestion"? That is interesting.
I'm guessing TACOM got an ungodly number of complaints regarding the ban of PMAGS.
I think it would be a wise decision if the army banned everything EXCEPT GI mags and pmags.
Well this reversal is good news to all us running PMAGS but bad news for me, I was planning on picking up a bunch of cheap used PMAGs.
I'm halfway waiting for an army twitter account to post 'lol, jk. pmags r gud #armystroooonk' or something...
Even if this limits the ability of line units to utilize unit funds to acquire superiour stuff (you know, the kinds of things that TECOM has clearly failed to provide, and why those unit funds exist in the first place) it's still an abject failure.
JBecker 72
06-07-12, 14:12
Just out of curiosity, are Surefire 60 and 100 round mags being used in theatre?
I'm halfway waiting for an army twitter account to post 'lol, jk. pmags r gud #armystroooonk' or something...
Even if this limits the ability of line units to utilize unit funds to acquire superiour stuff (you know, the kinds of things that TECOM has clearly failed to provide, and why those unit funds exist in the first place) it's still an abject failure.
TECOM is the Marine Corps Training and Education Command, what do they have to do with fielding anything.
TECOM is the Marine Corps Training and Education Command, what do they have to do with fielding anything.
He probably meant TACOM.
Cagemonkey
06-07-12, 19:46
Looks like the Army has changed its mind/clarified things. http://www.military.com/daily-news/2012/06/07/army-now-says-no-ban-on-rifle-magazines.html?ESRC=eb.nl
Just out of curiosity, are Surefire 60 and 100 round mags being used in theatre?
I don't think so, but don't quote me. I can only speak for my experiences, which were not attached to a line company. Heck, I didn't even carry an M-4.
I'm halfway waiting for an army twitter account to post 'lol, jk. pmags r gud #armystroooonk' or something...
Get outta my head! A buddy forwarded the link to me, my response over company IM was "Dude, we totally fell for the troll....LOL"
:p
Only partially kidding. The thing that I forgot (and others, I'm in good company though I'm not jazzed about the mental lapse), is that TACOM isn't truly a no-kidding policy authority. Just about anything they publish is ultimately a recommendation, and the ultimate decision is in the hands of the commander. The question becomes: At what level of command is somebody gonna make the decision to follow/not follow the TACOM recommendation?
Similar branch difference, different application: The Corps is subject to the DoN Laser Safety Review Board in regard to what laser systems the Corps may or may not use....period. The LSRB doesn't care what money was spent buying which laser-y widget, if they say "No!" it's final.
On the Army side, the agency that does the same sort of hazard evaluations as the DoN LSRB is CHPPM (Center for Health Promotion and Preventive Medicine). They mostly present their findings as advisory information, not as policies.
Damn, I hate it when I forget stuff like that....:mad:
Just out of curiosity, are Surefire 60 and 100 round mags being used in theatre?
I used a 60 on a deployment.
Held up fine.
JBecker 72
06-08-12, 12:35
I used a 60 on a deployment.
Held up fine.
Thanks for the info.
charmcitycop
06-08-12, 16:28
Uniformity assists in easy repair and replacement.
That and you'll always get that guy who thinks just because its polymer its good to go, Buying the cheapest shit from china and wondering why it doesn't work. Makes sense that they'd cut the BS.
Imagine if the Army allowed personally owned rifles? How many DPMS's would you see out their with sightmark optics and CCA stocks?
On the flip side, what is to stop soldiers from using garbage aluminum mags like c products, USA brand, etc?
I used a 60 on a deployment.
Held up fine.
Can you tell us how many times you fired it?
On the flip side, what is to stop soldiers from using garbage aluminum mags like c products, USA brand, etc?
Who's going to spend money on something they get for free? If they loose a few there's always someone to get a couple "extras" from.
I've never met anyone who bought more GI mags.
skullworks
06-08-12, 17:10
Who's going to spend money on something they get for free? If they loose a few there's always someone to get a couple "extras" from.
I've never met anyone who bought more GI mags.
From a theoretical standpoint I agree with charmcitycop, but from a practical/realistic standpoint I'm with you Jsop.
charmcitycop
06-08-12, 18:54
Who's going to spend money on something they get for free? If they loose a few there's always someone to get a couple "extras" from.
I've never met anyone who bought more GI mags.
Makes sense. And while I prefer Pmags to GI mags I very much understand that rules have to take into account the lowest common denominator, for good or bad.
Can you tell us how many times you fired it?
I fire mine at least once every two weeks for training. I go to the range and it gets cycled through completely.
one thing I noticed is that if the mag is partially full and it drops, then about three rounds pop out of the top.
I keep one in my rifle for patroling: Regain the initiative with fire superiority.
Ding, Ding, Ding!
I am willing to bet they claim an upper is not a personal weapon, so they are not in violation of GO1.
They could still have issues returning to the CONUS though.
I encouraged my guys to buy/shoot AR-15/M-4 weapons, but only to get better with their issued weapons. What advantage is their to using a civilian upper on a DoD weapon?
Two rotations ago (OEF-8) there was a guy in my unit who upon drawing our weapons for deployment drew an M16 (vs. the M4 he was normally issued) and proceeded to take the upper receiver off the M16. He then produced a purpose built SPR type upper with Leupold scope etc. and affixed this to the M16 lower. The arms room stored the M16 upper for the year with a tag annotating where the lower was and he deployed for the 15 months with his SPR.
The only thing that the units (most of them) care about is the serial number accountability of the weapons (sensitive items inventory) so he had the issue serialized lower. There was no issue re-deploying with the weapon as he had taken it over.
I almost switched out my POW upper this year because my unit screwed with the MAL right before we deployed, giving a lot of people new weapons that they had not sighted in or qualed with. If we had not gotten a range the week before we left I would be sporting my DD 14.5" middy upper right now.
Now, where someone could encounter an issue is taking a complete issue weapon, and their upper. It's easy to take stuff overseas, not as easy bringing stuff back. Customs is a bitch on the way out, so having an "extra" upper would be hard to successfully explain to the customs guys.
On the Magazine issue, meh! I have both P-Mags, and USGI for my own personal weapons. I use what uncle sam gives me at work as I am too cheap to pay my own hard earned money for equipment that will get f'd up at work (except maybe slings, grips, a stock). That may be the wrong thought process but that's how I do it. USGI and P-Mags are both great and both have their problems. If they are properly maintained and inspected you should have little to no problems with either. My 2 cents.
JP
RogerinTPA
06-09-12, 07:24
On the flip side, what is to stop soldiers from using garbage aluminum mags like c products, USA brand, etc?
In CONUS, nothing at all. Troops have a tendency to buy shit based on hearsay or some ****ed up perceived need. However, in AFG, Pmags are readily available in most PX/BX's I've been in, and have an outstanding reputation. If a troop is using a substandard self purchased mag in theater, he is a self appointed Darwin candidate, and does so at his own risk.
he is a self appointed Darwin candidate, and does so at his own risk.
Or other people in his unit.
When solders buy substandard crap, or use their favorite upper, it’s not just their ass they put on the line.
RogerinTPA
06-09-12, 10:12
Or other people in his unit.
When solders buy substandard crap, or use their favorite upper, it’s not just their ass they put on the line.
Goes without saying...
On the flip side, what is to stop soldiers from using garbage aluminum mags like c products, USA brand, etc?
I would hope his Squad Leader would be smart enough to tell guys what not to buy.
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2012/06/07/army-now-says-no-ban-on-rifle-magazines.html?ESRC=army.nl
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