View Full Version : Safety rotates full 180 degrees
I just installed an LMT ambidextrous safety in my AR-15 lower to finish out the build. I'm using a USGI trigger and a standard forged lower receiver. everything fit great, looks great, etc. But I was fondling it, and noticed that the safety rotates a full 180 degrees from safe to what would be (if I had FA) full-auto. What am I missing here? The safety detent and spring are properly installed, I'm using a Magpul MIAD grip.
Is this normal, and I'm just dumb?
Thanks.
F/A selector or bad install
If correctly installed you should feel positive clicking in all positions. 3=F/A 2=S/A
Not sure, uninstall and look, does the safety have three detent positions or two?
pull it apart and check that the spring sits high enough out of the pistol grip and that the selector detent fits fully into its recess.
You either have a full auto selector involved or as Dano stated something isn't right. Are you sure that your detent spring and detent are in place?
I can feel the resistance from the detent at safe and semi (there is a "click"), but there doesn't seem to be a third "click" when it rotates past semi. I'll break it down tonight and report back to you.
If it turns out to be an FA selector, is it illegal?
telecustom
05-06-12, 15:39
If it turns out to be an FA selector, is it illegal?
Yep, it's illegal.
pretty sure its not illegal as long as it doesnt fire full auto, and AFIAK since he doesnt have a auto sear, or hammer hes ok. but yeah i would pull it apart and check why it does it,. im guessing a selector detent issue
DeltaSierra
05-06-12, 16:02
pretty sure its not illegal as long as it doesnt fire full auto, and AFIAK since he doesnt have a auto sear, or hammer hes ok. but yeah i would pull it apart and check why it does it,. im guessing a selector detent issue
No, ATF has clearly stated that the use of ANY f/a components in the lower receiver is illegal....
Check your information before giving advice that could land someone in jail for ten years....
Did you install this http://www.lmtstore.com/accessories/full-auto-ambi-selector-kit.html or this
http://www.lmtstore.com/accessories/semi-auto-ambi-selector-kit.html ?
If you have the semi auto version, do you happen to have a standard A2 grip that you can try with the selector detent spring to see if everything works properly?
Here's a thread that describes how the depth of the hole in the grip affects the function of the selector. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13235
No, ATF has clearly stated that the use of ANY f/a components in the lower receiver is illegal....
They have? Source, links...
DeltaSierra
05-06-12, 21:59
They have? Source, links...
Should be somewhere here....
http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/nfa-handbook/
If not, maybe it was in some letter they sent out...
When you rotate it to the Auto position and pull the trigger, does it act like it's on safe?
pretty sure its not illegal as long as it doesnt fire full auto, and AFIAK since he doesnt have a auto sear, or hammer hes ok. but yeah i would pull it apart and check why it does it,. im guessing a selector detent issue
The most important would be the trigger and disconnector. If they were full auto along with a full auto selector the hammer would follow/slam fire and possibly run full auto for a few rounds.
No, ATF has clearly stated that the use of ANY f/a components in the lower receiver is illegal....
I'm pretty sure that ATF says any part "solely" usable in a FA gun is illegal, that would be the auto sear in the case of the M16, plays into the M16/ AR bolt carrier question. State laws are another matter.
The definition of machinegun also includes a combination of parts from which a machinegun can be
assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. An example of a firearm
meeting this section of the definition is a semiautomatic AR15 rifle possessed with an M16 bolt carrier,
hammer, trigger, disconnector and selector. If the semiautomatic AR15 is assembled with the described
M16 parts and the rifle is capable of fully automatic fire, the weapon possessed in conjunction with the
M16 parts, whether assembled or not, is a machinegun as defined.
If they were full auto along with a full auto selector the hammer would follow/slam fire and possibly run full auto for a few rounds.
Most likely the hammer will simply follow the carrier closed without the auto sear to delay it. Last time I saw one that did fire "automatically" without the auto sear was one the ATF taped up to delay the hammer.
So let me reiterate this one more time. I am pretty sure that installing a full auto FCG would only be an issue should the weapon indeed do so.
Now, I can verify 100% that if you install a full auto trigger, hammer, disconnector and selector lever in your weapon it will fire at a minimum in bursts and even full auto.
I have video demonstrating this, but I don't feel like uploading it to the net. In any case you are treading on thin ice and it would surely suck to end up like David Olofson.
When you rotate it to the Auto position and pull the trigger, does it act like it's on safe?
Yes. It won't fire once it rotates past vertical.
...Most likely the hammer will simply follow the carrier closed without the auto sear to delay it. Last time I saw one that did fire "automatically" without the auto sear was one the ATF taped up to delay the hammer.
Sorry, but I have seen it done on confiscated guns. They did fire a few rounds and then stop.
Iraqgunz mentioned Olofson in his post. Olofson's gun had f/a parts minus the auto sear which would be the same situation I described. (the f/a hammer operates the same as a semi hammer if an auto sear is not installed and a f/a bolt carrier is merely added weight without an auto sear.) At the range, with the selector in the f/a position, Olofson's gun, on more than one occasion, fired 3 to 4 round bursts before malfunctioning. That is why law enforcement was notified in the first place.
ETA:
Please go to page 9 of the below linked PDF to find a statement of facts in Olofson case. These facts are agreed upon by both sides. That day, at the range on more than one occasion Olofson's gun fired 3 to 4 rounds f/a then malfunctioned.
http://gunowners.org/fs0806.pdf
birdkiller
05-07-12, 01:19
Contact LMT. I had a BAD-Ambidextrous safety that would rotate a full 360, they sent me a new core, and no more problem. It sounds like a fluke.
Yes. It won't fire once it rotates past vertical.
Sound like a semi safety and for some reason the detent is not preventing it from rotating past semi. Check the length of the spring, detent and the hole in the grip the spring goes in.
Why don't you Google full auto selector lever M16 or similar. This will show you the difference between an auto and semi- or in any case it will help you determine what you have.
This may be a simple issue of something not making proper contact.
Yes. It won't fire once it rotates past
vertical.
Robb Jensen
05-07-12, 05:23
Put the factory safety back in and function check.
SomeOtherGuy
05-07-12, 09:27
I have a DS Arms semiauto ambi safety that will rotate past fire and back to what would be "full", but in that position it is in fact on safe and will not fire nor hammer-follow. (It is machined internally as a semiauto safety, not the more complicated select-fire design.)
Why does it do this? It seems they took a cost-cutting measure and machined a groove around the entire safety body where the short detent pin track would normally go, then drilled small holes for the detent stop at the two proper positions. So it won't lock in the rear position, it only stays there by friction.
The design is tolerably functional but not good. I got it from AIM Surplus a couple months ago. I have it in a lower that is basically a range toy.
DS Arms is a completely separate and unrelated company to LMT (as far as I know), but both are in Illinois and there could be some selling of parts back and forth, or sourcing from the same third party. But I consider the design poor for DSA and I would be really surprised if LMT would adopt something like it.
Semi automatic selector lever (pic property of G&R Tactical)
http://www.gandrtactical.com/PDGImages/Selector.jpg
Fully automatic selector lever (pic property of Bravo Company)
http://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/j4enh.r2en5/v/vspfiles/photos/Selector%20Safety%20Ambi%20-%20Auto-2.jpg?1334734642
a statement of facts in Olofson case.
I'm familiar.
No, ATF has clearly stated that the use of ANY f/a components in the lower receiver is illegal....
Check your information before giving advice that could land someone in jail for ten years....
Wrong.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb94/kcharestjr/6520-ColtM16CarrierLetter-1a.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb94/kcharestjr/6521-ColtM16CarrierLetter-2a.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb94/kcharestjr/m16carrierpage1.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb94/kcharestjr/m16carrierpage2.jpg
Oh, and hi guys.
Ouroborous
05-07-12, 18:22
Wrong.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb94/kcharestjr/6520-ColtM16CarrierLetter-1a.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb94/kcharestjr/6521-ColtM16CarrierLetter-2a.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb94/kcharestjr/m16carrierpage1.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb94/kcharestjr/m16carrierpage2.jpg
Oh, and hi guys.
Well alrighty then. Welcome to the forum btw.
Alright, thanks for the photo of the auto safety. It definitely isn't F/A. I'll check the spring.
Alright, thanks for the photo of the auto safety. It definitely isn't F/A. I'll check the spring.
Have you had a chance to troubleshoot this any further?
Have you had a chance to troubleshoot this any further?
the channel that the detent rides in is machined 360 degrees around the safety, not only in the 90 degrees of travel it is necessary for. I may simply fill the excess areas with JB weld to prevent over-travel, or would this be ill-advised?
SomeOtherGuy
05-17-12, 22:38
the channel that the detent rides in is machined 360 degrees around the safety, not only in the 90 degrees of travel it is necessary for. I may simply fill the excess areas with JB weld to prevent over-travel, or would this be ill-advised?
Sounds identical to my DS Arms ambi safety. If yours was sold by or "as" LMT, I would contact LMT and see if they really intended to put that design out.
I think you could fill the excess channel with JB Weld if you are so inclined.
I have a semi auto BAD ambi safety that does the same thing in a Rock River lower.
The third position acts as another safety but is a bit more difficult to engage with "normal" use.
I was concerned until function testing during two rifle classes that the third position ( and any rotation to or from that position )
does indeed act as another "Safe" position.
If you have a semi selector, which you've stated you do, and rotation to and from a third position acts as another "Safe",
move on and don't worry about it but just remember the rifle does it.
I'm more concerned with bumping the semi selector to "Safety Position Two" and not knowing it than I am having someone freaking
out that the selector moves to three spots.
They can stand there all day and look like an idiot trying to fire a rifle on safe all they want, not my concern.
Figuring out why the selector is not functioning properly and fixing it is the ideal solution but I'm not wasting
any sweat on a condition that doesn't exist.
birdkiller
05-20-12, 16:03
Mine in Red.
The third position acts as another safety but is a bit more difficult to engage with "normal" use.
Yup, mine too.
I was concerned until function testing during two rifle classes that the third position ( and any rotation to or from that position )
does indeed act as another "Safe" position.
Brother, your concern should not stop there.
If you have a semi selector, which you've stated you do, and rotation to and from a third position acts as another "Safe",
move on and don't worry about it but just remember the rifle does it.
Nope, main point I disagree with. In a high stress situation, where you need your rifle, over rotating your safety, into the 2nd safe position could be detrimental. Do worry about it, do not move on until you get this thing fixed, it could cost you your life if you don't!
I'm more concerned with bumping the semi selector to "Safety Position Two" and not knowing it than I am having someone freaking
out that the selector moves to three spots.
Exactly the concern, if you while under stress go cave man on your rifle bump that selector just a little too far, your screwed.
They can stand there all day and look like an idiot trying to fire a rifle on safe all they want, not my concern. Contact BAD, there was a safety core they made that was too shallow (to make the safety stiffer) that allowed the safety to rotate in some rifles/safety detent and spring/grip combinations. Contact them, they will make it right
The design is tolerably functional but not good.
You shouldn't have to tolerate something that can easily be fixed. With the amount of time you have spent asking for help here, you could have just emailed the company and been sent a replacement by now.
So, email the companies with the issues, they will fix it, put in the new safeties, and whala, you are fine. Problem solved. They will probably send you a prepaid label to send out your safety in too.
No way in heck I would let a safety be in my gun that could be put on safe with the same motion as putting it on fire.
Tedfs, please email me roger@battlearmsdevelopment and I will send you a replacement.
The semi auto selector could over rotate past SEMI is the detent hole isn't deep enough. No need to send the defective one back, we had a few that did that and we hoped to have caught them all :(
What was the final result of this issue? Did you use JB Weld? Did you leave it as is? Have you notified LMT to see what they would suggest?
Not sure if the OP's is solved but it would appear an email will take care of mine.
It really hasn't been an issue. You really need to force it into the third position and by that I mean it won't simply slip
into that position unless you make it do so.
I'm fully aware of this every day I pick the rifle up and it's in the back of my mind every time it's in use. Hopefully
the new core will fix the "issue" but I'm still not going to lose sleep over the one that's in now because it's known.
Tedfs, you should have us swap it out for you, please email me your shipping info, you'll like the new center much better :)
Tedfs, you should have us swap it out for you, please email me your shipping info, you'll like the new center much better :)
info was emailed to you shortly before the last post here @ 04:23
Got it, please ignore the IM, I did receive the email, thanks! :)
What was the final result of this issue? Did you use JB Weld? Did you leave it as is? Have you notified LMT to see what they would suggest?
Come to find out, I've been had. It wasn't in fact a LMT selector. It was a DSA :mad:
Not a huge deal, but suffice it to say the guy behind the counter at that particular LGS lacks employment. Changed the labels on the bag to make a sale. I don't care that it's a DSA, but the fact he lied to me-good Christ am I livid!
Needless to say, the owner (a family friend and good dude) laid into this guy as soon as I told him what happened. On principle, he refunded me (my whole order, including 1k of ammo and the lower I bought that day) out of the guy's pay check and and fired him on the spot, so I think everything's settled. I think the fact my family and myself have been buying there for years in combination with the business our referrals have drawn played into this in a big way.
Back to my original issue:
I filled the notch with JB weld and it's worked fine so far. Note-when applying JB weld, wipe the area clean with a paper towel, then clean off any oily residue with rubbing alcohol. I skipped this step the first time and had to re-do the job. Seems fine now, only time will tell.
I don't know, though that area doesn't handle a lot of stress, JB Weld didn't work all that well for me. If it gets loose, it's another part that may screw with your FCG.
I have tons of single lever, factory selectors, I can send one to you. Alternatively, if you want, I can send you one of ours ;)
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.