View Full Version : Advice Wanted:
Would you rather have two EOTech 512s? (one on your go-to HD rifle, one on your backup/beater rifle)
OR
Would you rather have an Aimpoint Comp M4S and a Vortex Sparc? (Aimpoint on your go-to HD rifle, Vortex on your backup/beater)
Those are the only options. I'm not considering a T-1, a PRO, an XPS, or anything else.
There is something to be said about having your go to rifle and beater with the same equipment. Yet unless you are certain you will be happy with the optic you decide on I would be hesitant to lay out the cash for two of the same unknown product.
I'll assume you plan on using your beater for the majority of your training and shooting in order to extend the life span on your go to rifle?
I would buy one of the optics and use it on whatever rifle [I]you choose to use until I'm sure I like it, then worry about the second.
Spend the extra cash on spare parts, and ammo.
I vote for having one rifle with quality accessories and use additional funds for training and ammunition
I have seen many eotec 512s go tits up in the past few years. I have never seen an aimpoint fail. I have no experience with vortex, but i have had 2 512s and currently own 4 flavors of aimpoints.
Fwiw, eotec does have excellent customer service.
I have seen many eotec 512s go tits up in the past few years.
What type of problems have you seen with the 512's and are you saying you went through two Eotecs yourself?
I would definitely get the two Eotech's I see them as a high quality optic. You could always share the Aimpoint between the two, it can handle it.
I have been using a 512 for a couple years, and I like it alot. But:
The battery life, the NV mode, and the ungodly durability of the M4s is whats hanging me up. I could either sell my 512 and spend an extra few hundred on an M4s, or just spend a few hundred on a second 512.
I wish the M4s wasn't so damn steep or I'd get into two of those.
Problems with the 512 I have seen have been mostly with the battery box. I have also had a mounting screw break. I had problems with both of mine, but i have seen dozens more fail... I have seen aimpoint m4's with the battery in the upper position selling for $500nib at gunshows. I bought one, but haven't seen them again at that price... point is keep your eyes open.
I understand you're trying to control the parameters of your question but the M4 is overkill for all but military users or if you think you have some pressing need for the NV.
If this is an AA battery issue you're letting the tail wag the dog.
The battery box issue where the springs come out is inherent in an older design. The newer ones have a much improved one piece spring insert
If this is an AA battery issue you're letting the tail wag the dog.
Yes it is. I've standardized a lot of kit on AA. I'm not sure what you mean though
I've never had a problem with my Eotech. I bought it new in '03. It's definitely the old style. I've worn the arrows off the on/off pad through.
I know numerous people that have the same experience I've had. I think the exploding battery thing is way overblown.
Yes it is. I've standardized a lot of kit on AA. I'm not sure what you mean though
That's like buying a house to fit the sofa IMO. Or buying a car because the cupholder fits your Big Gulp.
Buy a Pro and a mount that allows you to store a spare battery and "standardizing" on something like an AA batter and allowing it to drive important choices becomes a total non-issue.
Problems with the 512 I have seen have been mostly with the battery box. I have also had a mounting screw break. I had problems with both of mine, but i have seen dozens more fail...
You work in returns at Eotech? lol. I find that to be an unbelievable number. dozens? really dozens?.... you have personally seen at least 24 model 512's fail?..............NO you haven't. but I get the idea you like Aimpoint.
You work in returns at Eotech? lol. I find that to be an unbelievable number. dozens? really dozens?.... you have personally seen at least 24 model 512's fail?..............NO you haven't. but I get the idea you like Aimpoint.
How do you know he hasn't?
Either stop picking assumptions out of your ass and telling people what they see, or ask him what he does or where he has seen them fail.
You work in returns at Eotech? lol. I find that to be an unbelievable number. dozens? really dozens?.... you have personally seen at least 24 model 512's fail?..............NO you haven't. but I get the idea you like Aimpoint.
Look Brother,
I'm just a guy from the internet. You can choose to believe what I have to say or not... Doesn't really matter much to me. FWIW I have never seen an exploding battery in an Eotec. The battery problems I have seen/experienced have had to do with the springs in the battery box weakening under recoil and losing connection.
I DO like Eotec. I love the reticle and like that it is an American company. I believe I have given them a fair chance.
I have been a 3gun competitor for the past 7 years. Many of the failures I have seen were in matches or practicing for matches with friends. I have also seen every Eotec in a high round count training class fail. The remainder of my witnessed failures stems around a Govt training facility that keeps 8/10 on hand for training m4s. I have been there on a few occasions when NONE of them were operational.
NOW, you seem to have a good one. I am happy for you. However; just as you don't know me, I also don't know you or how heavily you use your equipment. Delta used Eotecs for many years and loved them (I will point out that most of Delta's operations are of short duration). I also should point out that Eotecs are no longer a part of the sopmod kit.
The question was asked about which optic to put on a "goto" rifle. I felt that I had pertinent information for the OP. I apologize if I have hurt your feelings.
No hurt feelings here. I just find it hard to believe you have seen such a high number of failure with Eotecs, Still do, not calling you a liar but I do think it's an exaggeration. I find it hard to believe also that in serven years of three gun competition you've never seen any problems with even a single Aimpoint. Again I must be lucky because I have. I've seen both brands fail, not often enough to have to remove my pants to count them though.
I had an Eotech on my last AR, it was super nice, worked great everytime and took a ton of abuse, I was up in the air which to buy between an aimpoint and the Eotech, really liked the 65moa circle! I sold it with the AR, I am now in the same boat you are looking for a new optic, there are soooo many choices now that it is way tougher, so much great stuff on the market. But I am leaning towards the Aimpoint this time, I have used red dots in the past with great success and the aimpoints track record is pretty fabulous!
Either way you'll be happy if you buy the Eotech or aimpoint, try both and buy the one you're most comfortable with!
Fetep
Don't know anything about the Vortex so I can't speak for that optic.
If it were me, I do a Aimpoint M4 and a EoTech combo. Or better yet, two M4s.
I have two M4s and they are tanks.
I'd put the M4 on the one that would see the most hard use. As in "beater rifle".
No hurt feelings here. I just find it hard to believe you have seen such a high number of failure with Eotecs,
Take a moment to consider the following: there exist other people who have a greater level of throughput, in terms of busted optics, that what you experience. I've seen literally hundreds of both brands that were TU; cops, warfighters, everyday citizens, CONUS and OCONUS though I can't go so far as to say "...every clime and place."
Difference is, busted Aimpoints usually busted, as a result of some catastrophic event that was readily visible on the outside of the device (extreme impact, crush, fire, etc.). Somebody DID something to them to break them, something a cut or six above the usual, casual abuse the average warfighter heaps upon such equipment.
EOs have been an even mix of visible damage and nothing more than normal wear marks. They're far more likely to fail internally, without some outside force acting upon them.
Those that use the EOs and love them.....most often belong to an organization where they can walk up to a cage and swap a busted/nonfunctional one for another. The everyday John Doe...can't. Suffice to say that if EO would spend less time adding biohazard reticles to their kit and use better material for their internals, there'd be less reason for the rabid level of hatred EO can generate (which I don't share). One analogy may draw is that Aimpoints are like a Gen3 G17/19 that can almost be ignored when it's not being shot, while EOs are like 1911s and need to be continually maintained by the user to get the most out of them.
One must be willing to swap batteries on a regular basis, occasionally stretch springs so that they contact battery terminals, check for the presence of rubber buffers inside the battery box (that can get stuck to that last battery you just pulled out and tossed in the trash.....)
Given the choice, as posted, I'd go with the 512s (....that's right, I said it, after having typed all that stuff out; stop looking at me like that...!) and perform the following recommended actions: http://www.kyledefoor.com/2009/12/mounting-tips-and-eotech-secret.html
Given your parameters... I'd choose the M4S and NOT buy the Vortex. I'd save that money and put it towards a quality optic later.
That said... if I was going to put an EOTech on my rifle it would not be a 512. It would be one of the newer models (XPS, etc.) with the transverse battery compartment.
I know you said, you were strictly going with your options, but the Aimpoint PRO is the best deal going IMHO for a red dot. At $400 a piece, you can't go wrong. I don't know anyone who "needs" an M4S. In my opinion $700 is WAY too much to spend on any red dot (and this is coming from a guy who had no problem buying a Swarovski for a rifle).
At the LE agency where I am employed, we run 512's on our patrol rifles. We got them in 2005 and since then I would estimate that we've gone through 25-30 (out of 120 +/- rifles) failures, all due to the battery boxes. My particular rifle is on its third battery box.
I wouldn't put a 512 on ANY rifle of mine, but I did just put an XPS on my DD V3 that I recently acquired.
So I guess to answer your question, I'd have to go with the Aimpoint/ Vortex option.
if EO would spend less time adding biohazard reticles to their kit and use better material for their internals, there'd be less reason for the rabid level of hatred EO can generate
I was under the impression that Eotech did get their act together and used better parts and a more reliable design on their newer models? From what I've heard and read, it seems like the battery compartment issues have been fixed.
As for the 512 model referenced in the OP, I agree with JSantoro that I would go with the two 512s, but perform the modifications he listed. The reason being, you will have consistency between your two rifles, and can still use the more common AA batteries.
The_War_Wagon
05-07-12, 12:52
PINCH MORE PENNIES - TWO Comp M4's! :D
LOVE the EOTech - it's good kit - my EYES can't focus with that reticle, though - astigmatism. :(
I LIKE the M4 too, but I own T-1's, a CompM2, and a Pro also. They'll GET the job done.
I was under the impression that Eotech did get their act together and used better parts and a more reliable design on their newer models? From what I've heard and read, it seems like the battery compartment issues have been fixed.
My understanding was that the batteries in the originals (512, 552 style) running lengthwise was a problem. During recoil the batteries were being pushed back and forth against the springs until they finally had nothing left to give.
The newer EOTechs (XPS) have the battery mounted transverse to the weapon to avoid this issue. They also save the amount of rail space taken up by the optic.
The newer EOTechs (XPS) have the battery mounted transverse to the weapon to avoid this issue. They also save the amount of rail space taken up by the optic.
Cool, I thought the newer XPS models were good to go. I was just a little confused after JSantoro said that Eotech should spend less time making biotech reticles and put more effort into better materials for their internals. Since the XPS line (which supposedly already fixed the problems and had much better internals) was created before they created that stupid Biotech reticle, it sounded like maybe people have been still seeing battery issues with the XPS line.
At any rate, I hope the new Eotechs start showing the same reliability as Aimpoints. I like the field of view and reticle of the EOs much better, but Aimpoint has always seemed to be the more reliable optic.
Why an M4s? Why not a couple of Aimpoint PRO's? They cost less than the Eotech 512s, have "ungodly" battery life, and are rugged.
SomeOtherGuy
05-07-12, 15:26
m4s and SPARC
But really, I'd get two Aimpoint PROs and call it good.
I own and use four models of Aimpoint, and two of the Vortex Strikefire. I have in the past owned an EOTech 552 and XPS. They worked for me, but I read enough here to decide to get while the getting was good (sell before I had any issues). I also have read (not personal experience) that while the XPS is better, there apparently can still be an issue with the battery not being designed to handle recoil forces on its side.
While I personally had no EOTech problems, two different friends with two different 511s on two different carbines both have had constant problems. One of those friends is now using a SPARC on a different AR with no problems so far.
Just had a 400+ round class a week ago with an H1 micro on my AR and a ML3 on my wife's and both worked perfectly.
I think I'm going to order another 512. I'll just pick up a spare battery terminal from brownells.
The NV mode was more of a nice to have feature, because eventually, I plan on picking up a PVS-14. But that's several years away.
I've already got a decent supply of lithium single use and NiMh rechargeable AAs, so shorter battery life isn't such a big deal.
As far as durability, if the 512 can take a good knock, that's all I need. It's not like I'm going to be under sustained mortar attack from spetsnaz forces while on the side of an active volcano in a fighting hole made from bleached skulls. :D
Thanks for the input everybody
It's not like I'm going to be under sustained mortar attack from spetsnaz forces while on the side of an active volcano in a fighting hole made from bleached skulls. :D
From that description, I think you mean Japanese forces and it sounds a lot like Peleliu...
Anyway, good luck with your purchase!
Alaskapopo
05-07-12, 19:02
Would you rather have two EOTech 512s? (one on your go-to HD rifle, one on your backup/beater rifle)
OR
Would you rather have an Aimpoint Comp M4S and a Vortex Sparc? (Aimpoint on your go-to HD rifle, Vortex on your backup/beater)
Those are the only options. I'm not considering a T-1, a PRO, an XPS, or anything else.
I would trust the Vortex over the Eotech actually. So my vote is Aimpoint M4s and the Vortex.
Pat
Great thread people,
I love the passion people feel for the optic of their choice, if there is one thing to take away here; its the fact that you have just compressed years of expierence in 2 dozen post. Exactly why I joind this group.
As an LEO firearms instructor I've had the pleasure of using Vortex, EoTech, and Aimpoint optics and thing they all have something to offer. Its up to you to see what we have all exp. and decide on your own (depending on use and budget).
The EoTech battery box issue was a very big issue for our SWAT guys, EoTech customer service was excellent, but after numerous call outs and training scenarios in which either the batteries were dead or the box developed contact issues they/we switched to Aimpoint M2's.
In my case I've finally settled on the Aimpoint product which meets my needs exactly. I have sold the vortex products to entry level shooters with limited funds, and have kept my EoTech 512 as back up (batteries out) until I can afford another T-1 or an M4s. Once thats done my son will get the Eotech for his first AR.
Thanks for all the great input and whatever your looking through "keep em on target and make some brass"
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