View Full Version : Clean bore shooting
I was watching the Magpul Precision Rifle video today, and came across the segment where Todd Hodnett discusses clean bore vs cold bore. He mentioned something I've never heard of before; that he never cleans the copper fouling out of his barrel. The reasoning was (as I understand it), that in the process of zeroing, the barrel begins to strip copper from the rounds. By the time the rifle is dialed in, the optic is set to POA=POI when the barrel has fouling in it. By cleaning out that copper, the gun will shoot off POA until the copper from the fired rounds has once again settled into the rifling and the barrel returns to the condition it was in when it was zeroed. Does the same apply to an AR barrel (I figured this was a specific enough question for the technical forum.)?
I don't see why it wouldn't apply to an AR barrel.
Of course, I think you're doing some pretty serious precision shooting before you can notice the difference between a "clean" and a "fouled" barrel...
Littlelebowski
05-11-12, 18:00
It does apply to ARs but only if you are very exacting about your accuracy and actually track it. For carbine use, don't worry about the clean bore shot.
If you are shooting for long range precision, clean the barrel when accuracy drops off. That's it. Kind of simple but so many people don't get that.
Bushido1971
05-12-12, 09:23
I've never cleaned the copper out of my carbine barrel and have never had accuracy issues.
That said, I was always trained to thoroughly clean my bolt-action sniper rifle any times rounds are fired through it. That included painstakingly running an endless supply of patches through the barrel to clean the copper and carbon fouling. Even then, I would see a consistent drop in my cold bore shot, almost a full MOA at 100 yds. More recently, I've limited the cleaning to just carbon fouling and have actually seen an improvement in my cold bore accuracy.
Cleaning just got a whole lot easier for me.
John_Burns
05-12-12, 11:43
It does apply to ARs but only if you are very exacting about your accuracy and actually track it. For carbine use, don't worry about the clean bore shot.
If you are shooting for long range precision, clean the barrel when accuracy drops off. That's it. Kind of simple but so many people don't get that.
Seems to me waiting for a failure before you do preventative maintenance would be fine if you think of your rifles as toys. If you use them as tools then it might be a good plan to stay ahead of the curve.
I don’t wait for my AR to quit feeding before I replace the action spring and I sure don’t wait until I start missing targets before I take care of the bore. :rolleyes:
It takes less than 20 minutes to clean any reasonable barrel down to bare steel. Not exactly a huge chore.
The key to keeping your clean bore shot POI consistently with your fouled bore POI is to make sure your clean barrel is dry. The culprit with the AR is the gas port as solvent gets in the port and then migrates back in the bore. I find that letting a clean patch on a jag sit right at the port for a minute or so really helps with the clean bore shot.
Here is a 100yd 3 shot group with the first shot being from a clean bore.
http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/5ecec336.jpg
Littlelebowski
05-12-12, 12:09
Yes, cleaning down to bare steel must be the answer. It's just solvent that makes bolt guns have a varying POI with cold bore as opposed to fouled. I'll just run out and tell every 8541/8542/0317 I know that their cleaning regimens are wrong.
After all, my weapons are just toys and I'm not a death dealer from afar like you.
Seems to me waiting for a failure before you do preventative maintenance would be fine if you think of your rifles as toys. If you use them as tools then it might be a good plan to stay ahead of the curve.
I don’t wait for my AR to quit feeding before I replace the action spring and I sure don’t wait until I start missing targets before I take care of the bore. :rolleyes:
Accuracy drop off is gradual. No one is suggesting waiting until the rifle starts missing it's target until the bore is cleaned. I have some rifles that accuracy doesn't change much when the barrel is fouled. Even so, you won't know how to stay ahead of the curve until you find out where the curve is.
It takes less than 20 minutes to clean any reasonable barrel down to bare steel. Not exactly a huge chore.
Depends on how many shots were fired before the barrel is cleaned, how aggressive the copper cutter is and condition of the bore. It also depends on the definition of "bare steel". Clean any well used and maintained barrel with brush, rod & patch until the solvent stops removing copper then clean it with the Outer's Foul Out kit. How much copper the Foul Out will remove from a well cleaned bore is amazing.
The key to keeping your clean bore shot POI consistently with your fouled bore POI is to make sure your clean barrel is dry. The culprit with the AR is the gas port as solvent gets in the port and then migrates back in the bore. I find that letting a clean patch on a jag sit right at the port for a minute or so really helps with the clean bore shot.
Interesting observation. For myself, it's a simple matter of just cleaning enough to remove the carbon and some of the copper fouling
Here is a 100yd 3 shot group with the first shot being from a clean bore.
http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/5ecec336.jpg
Nice tight group there! Do you notice much change in point of impact from a clean barrel compared to when it's fouled from a number of shots? Do you see a drop off in accuracy as fouling increases?
Littlelebowski
05-12-12, 13:02
Not sure how one cleans down to the bare steel shy of a borescope.
John_Burns
05-12-12, 18:38
Not sure how one cleans down to the bare steel shy of a borescope.
Owning a bore scope sure does cut down on the guessing. :D
It also depends on the definition of "bare steel".
Bare steel is bare steel. No fouling anywhere in the bore as examined with a 10X bore scope.
It takes less than 10 minutes to take a decent .223/5.56 mm 16 inch barrel with 500rnds of fouling back to bare steel.
Think KG products. Think bronze (powder fouling) and nylon brushes (copper fouling) and forget about soaking. 20 minutes tops to clean the whole AR. Douche out the upper and lower with Carb and Choke cleaner, add a few drops of lube and you have a sparkling clean, reliable, and accurate carbine that you know will stack high BC bullets for 300 rnds without worry.
If you are running a RDS shooting m855 and are happy with 2 MOA then this might be over kill but if you want reliable precision then you need a cleaning schedule that includes proper bore maintenance.
If you are running a RDS shooting m855 and are happy with 2 MOA then this might be over kill but if you want reliable precision then you need a cleaning schedule that includes proper bore maintenance.
If your cleaning schedule works for you that's just dandy. I know many many competition shooters who don't clean their barrels for the entire NRA rifle season without a drop off in accuracy. At 88 rounds per match plus practice, they go well over your minimum standard without issue.
Littlelebowski
05-12-12, 21:08
Guy above me nailed it. I don't have the time to play bench rest shooter games. I have shot a lot of rounds through fouled bores with no decrease in accuracy and I know for certain the cold bore shot does vary in POI compared to a fouled bore shot. To argue against it is more than a little strange but hey, maybe I should be investing my time in cleaning every range session and whipping out a bore scope.
When you say that competition shooters don't clean their barrels until accuracy drops off. Do you mean that they don't run any patches down the barrel at all?
John_Burns
05-13-12, 12:57
Guy above me nailed it. I don't have the time to play bench rest shooter games. I have shot a lot of rounds through fouled bores with no decrease in accuracy and I know for certain the cold bore shot does vary in POI compared to a fouled bore shot. To argue against it is more than a little strange but hey, maybe I should be investing my time in cleaning every range session and whipping out a bore scope.
You seem a little obsessed with this whole cleaning issue as it relates to precision type rifles so I check back on a few of your posts and found the following quotes from a class you took a few short months ago.
I myself, had a tough time getting my 5.45 S&W AR on steel at 300 due to the impact area being wet and therefore not providing a dust cloud as to ascertain where my rounds were impacting. With a little help from Chris of F2S Consulting, I got on target and had no more issues. However, given this rifle's previous performance at 300 yards, I'm began to wonder if I'm getting close to wearing out my second 5.45x39mm AR barrel......
.
My own personal performance at speed improved significantly but my long distance shooting suffered from me having switched rifles and not having my secondary rifle completely zeroed for 100 meters. .
I really struggle to understand how a guy who thinks 300yds is long and has to have help to hit steel at that range is so invested in preaching to the world on cleaning schedules.
While this is the internet and we certainty all have a right to our opinion do you really feel you have any valid real world experience in reference to the OPs question?
Do you actually own a Precision AR with a magnified optic?:rolleyes:
If your cleaning schedule works for you that's just dandy. I know many many competition shooters who don't clean their barrels for the entire NRA rifle season without a drop off in accuracy. At 88 rounds per match plus practice, they go well over your minimum standard without issue.
Who exactly are these “many, many competition shooters”? What events have they won?
Do you yourself have any practical experience to relate to the OPs question or are you just repeating the opinions of others?:rolleyes:
Let's not start with silly personal attacks. Thanks
If your cleaning schedule works for you that's just dandy. I know many many competition shooters who don't clean their barrels for the entire NRA rifle season without a drop off in accuracy. At 88 rounds per match plus practice, they go well over your minimum standard without issue.
These guys don't clean their barrels because they don't have to. They run expensive, very smoothly cut barrels (Hart, Shilen, etc.). The copper accumulation in these barrels is almost nil. A quick look through a bore scope at a high performance barrel bore next to an OE barrel and you'll see the difference is amazing.
I would imagine that chrome lined bores wouldn't catch much more, but don't know for sure, and never really cared. I do know I was at a known distance range last week with my .mil M4 shooting silhouettes at 500 meters and watching them fall. I don't remember the last time the bore had a good scrubbing, other than a bore snake.
OE barrels are usually roughly hewn and the rough bore surfaces catch a lot of copper, especially in new barrels.
Littlelebowski
05-13-12, 18:04
Hey John, anytime you want to best me at shooting steel at 300 yards with a 4 MOA red dot on top of a 5.45 carbine with about 20k rounds on it (second barrel) shooting soviet surplus ammo from the 80's, let me know. We can put it up on YouTube.
I learned a lot from this guy (http://rationalgun.blogspot.com/2011/11/my-brothers-award-writeup.html). I know he doesn't have your advanced cleaning techniques but he did win the long range competition shoot at Fallujah in 2004 using an SR25.
Littlelebowski
05-13-12, 18:06
I forgot to add that I did have a precision AR. I prefer bolt guns for precision and I sold that rifle. But, I did own one so I guess it's ok for me to comment here......
RogerinTPA
05-13-12, 20:56
If your cleaning schedule works for you that's just dandy. I know many many competition shooters who don't clean their barrels for the entire NRA rifle season without a drop off in accuracy. At 88 rounds per match plus practice, they go well over your minimum standard without issue.
Agreed. It's what I and my team mates did, as well as everyone on the various teams I was on over the years. We never cleaned our weapons until the end of the shooting season...that includes shooting with the USAMU and several trips to Camp Perry.
When you say that competition shooters don't clean their barrels until accuracy drops off. Do you mean that they don't run any patches down the barrel at all?
To answer your question directly, some will and some won't. It depends on their skill level, experience and the individual rifle.
Every barrel is a law unto itself. I've seen barrels lose accuracy when cleaned really good. I've seen barrels shoot better after they've been cleaned. Most modern barrels seem to shoot well somewhere in between, with just enough fouling to settle them in. I can also tell you ammunition today seems to produce less copper fouling than it did when I first started shooting.
Your cleaning schedule really must meet your needs, not mine, or anyone else's. If your rifle opens up from 2 MOA to 8 MOA after just a couple of rounds, but you're hitting your target every time, on demand why worry? If you must have 1/4 MOA every shot and can tell when fouling starts opening up your groups, you've already shot the rifle enough to know how many rounds can be fired before it must be cleaned to maintain that level of performance. Clean your rifles in a way that works for you and don't worry what anyone else thinks about it. I knew a guy who cleaned his Glock in the dishwasher. It sounded crazy to me but it worked for him!
It should be noted that even the true bench rest disciples do not believe in squeaky clean these days. Traces of copper between relays is wanted. Less fowlers is the key.
John_Burns
05-14-12, 01:03
While this is an interesting discussion we seem to be stuck with very little real world data or experience from most of the posts.
I will add a few videos taken using the same rifle. Rifle is a .264 Win Mag with a 140gr VLD at 3225 FPS.
The first shot is from a “clean to bare steel” at 780 yds. Click on the picture to see the video.
http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/49c51bcc.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zc_hEKU1kcI)
This next video is at 760yds with the same rifle after 32 days and 29 rounds fired at rocks and such with no cleaning so a fouled bore.
Click on pic for VIDEO
http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/be087f30.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7Qu_N-_754)
Notice how the Point of Impact remains stable from the first shot out of a bare steel clean barrel to a fouled barrel.
Guessing is fun and reading things on the internet is fun but actually knowing what happens and how to make your rifle run is REALLY FUN.
Proper cleaning procedures will give you a very consistent clean/cold bore shot. If you don’t have a consistent clean/cold bore shot then learn the proper procedures.
While many shooters in many competitions do many things the way to separate the wheat from the chaff is to see what the guys on the podium do to keep their guns running at peak performance.
Waiting until accuracy drops off before cleaning will not get you to the top in competition and if you depend on your rifle to perform in the real world then waiting until it quits shooting is by definition a lack of performance.:cool:
No dog in this one, just my two cents on how we break in our sniper rifles.
When the rifle is brand spanking new, we are mandated to break in the rifles, be it the HK417 or the M82A1 Barrett. The break in procedure is a pre-determined firing and cleaning schedule, and recording the shots in the weapons log book. You shoot x-amount of rounds, then clean the barrel, including removing the copper fouling. This procedure is done for a set number of firing sequences, with a varying number of shots in each sequence.
After the required number of rounds is fired for each weapon, the gun is broken in, and we do not remove the copper fouling when cleaning after that, only carbon fouling.
I am not a metalurgist, barrel manufacturer or ammunition manufacturer, so I cannot make qualified comments on how much different types of bullets respond to being pushed through the bore when it comes to how much of the jacket is stripped, or how different barrels, coatings etc strip jackets from projectiles.
However, I do believe that there must be a finite amount of jacket that can be present inside the bore, and the presence or absence of this will affect POI. How big of a POI change is difficult to predict, and will probably be dependant on many factors.
Littlelebowski
05-14-12, 04:48
John, you seem hell bent on ignoring what everyone else says here and trumpeting your own experience as a hunter?
Head on over to snipershide.com and tell everyone there is no such thing as a deviance between a clean bore shot and a fouled bore shot. Ask for Lowlight; he's the head instructor at Rifles Only and I know he will be thrilled to hear about your cleaning regimen.
Nice hunting pics. I have some too from my family's 51k acre ranch in Wyoming that my 8542 (look it up) brother and I hunt on.
I just remembered what Caylen Wojick told me about cleaning. It vastly differs from what you say. That rank amateur is instructing long range shooting for Magpul and is one of those Marine Scout Sniper instructors that have seen combat with a precision rifle.
Here is a good article adressing the issue:
http://www.shootingsoftware.com/fouling.htm
Generalpie
05-14-12, 11:28
Not diminishing long range hunting shots because any shot at 500+ is a good shot if one can make it regularly but.....
Isn't the amount of variables introduced at those ranges in field conditions so vast they essentially wipe out any visible variances because of clean vs fouled bore?
Also all my rifle shooting is CQB style and I get to play on a 800 meter range once or twice a year but I am comfortable in saying yes it is.
When you say that competition shooters don't clean their barrels until accuracy drops off. Do you mean that they don't run any patches down the barrel at all?
Since most HP shooters are using non chrome lined stainless barrels, most shooters I know are running an oiled patch down the barrel at the end of a match. I wouldn't call it cleaning, more like rust prevention.
Who exactly are these “many, many competition shooters”? What events have they won?
Do you yourself have any practical experience to relate to the OPs question or are you just repeating the opinions of others?:rolleyes:
I'm not going to drop any names because some of the people I shoot with are military, and I didn't ask all the civilians if I could use their names either. Let me just say that the people who taught me to shoot precision rifle are:
Many double distinguished shooters
Several holders of the President's Hundred tab, including one match winner.
Former AMU team members
Former and current all guard shooters
Members of the NY State civilian high power rifle team
Who am I to question or comment? I'm just a guy who picked up competition shooting in the military and stayed with it. I've been shooting in competition on and off since 1987 in both rifle and pistol. I started in inter service and later went to match grade firearms. I've won several ARCOM (divisional) level matches in both rifle and pistol. I'm on my way to being a double distinguished shooter.
Other than that with all I know I'm still dwarfed by the level of knowledge some others on this forum have.
By cleaning out that copper, the gun will shoot off POA until the copper from the fired rounds has once again settled into the rifling and the barrel returns to the condition it was in when it was zeroed.
Bear in mind that precision-gun guys...
(....be they HOGs that hunt things with thumbs and malice aforethought, or those that do long-range paper-punching and process targets equally less likely to shoot back...)
(...some of the first very often do a lot of the latter, whereas not all of the latter can reciprocate....)
...are pretty universally tracking an imponderable amount of data.
Either, if competent, can use their tracked data can calculate what they need to do for their shots based upon their chosen baseline. For some, that's a naked bore. For others, that's from a barrel that's at a known point of fouling.
This is very thumbnail, and is open to being sharpshot for detail, but every HOG-type I've ever rubbed elbows with has a very specific cleaning process that follows a trend: having shot X amount of Y round, the weapon shall be cleaned via the practice of punching the bore with Z brush AA number of times, followed by BB number of alternating wet/dry patches (or CC number of wet patch(es) followed by DD number of dry...) etc., etc.
The process will very likely differ in detail from one firearm to another, but will be the same every time and is firmly based upon them having shot the thing and tracked the resulting data to a point where they know what they need to calculate IOT take the shot that they want to take from the baseline that they've established. The cleaning process is partially for the purposes of ensuring the function of the weapon, and also for the purposes of putting the bore in a known state from which they may calculate what they need to do to take a given shot.
Bare metal is also a known state, so the principle is the same, and the decision to make that a practice is simply one decision among many, taken by a portion of the precision-gun subculture, and for their own reasons.
References? They're called data-books. The bare-metal guys have theirs, and the idea that the data-books of those who shoot from a barrel at a known state of fouling that's making the shots that they're calling are some how invalidated by the fact that they're not the data-books of a bare-metal practitioner would be a difficult position to defend.
Keeping track of valid data is the key. When somebody says "when accuracy starts to drop off," one needs to bear in mind that a lot of these shooters are highly likely to know pretty exactly when that's going to happen.
Both camps are right, they're just right for different reasons based upon how they look at what it is they're trying to accomplish.
Instead of merging or moving, we've an existing thread in Precision Rifle -- Semi-Auto," where the precision guys can rip me to shreds, if they're of a mind to: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=77226
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