View Full Version : What A5 buffer weights for this list of guns?
All of these suppressed and not suppressed. Except the 300blk
12.5" carbine
16" middy hbar
20" rifle
14.5" middy (lightweight pinned to 16")
6.5G 18" mid or rifle (don't own yet, still investigating)
300blk 9"
I have the 12.5" running with the standard A5 H2 (2Steel 2Tungsten), and it's working fine for the last 400 rounds. I'll be highspeed testing to get a cyclic rate and figure it out from there, but I thought I'd ask the cool kids what they thought first.
This is for two lowers. I own two of the standard (A5H2) so I guess what I'd like to do is find the optimal combo. So if H3 works for all I'd like to end up with two H3s by buying one H4, combining the two H2 I own, and having an H2 left over. Likewise if I were to buy an H3, I'd have two H3 and an H1 left over. I realize that might not be possible but it's my current goal.
Thoughts?
My philosophy is try everything on everything - no rifle is the same. I've had 14.5 middies that liked one buffer and not another and vice-versa. Try the different A5 buffers in each gun and see what you can get away with, reliably.
I bought a set of all of the A5 weights and am going through the process on each rifle to find which weight works best, writing it down, and then ordering the right buffers. There is no tried and true rule on buffers/springs IMO - you have to do the range time with each one and treat them as completely different animals.
Oh man.... Reason, Logic, and Good advice... get the **** out of here with those :D
Yea, what you wrote is exactly what I was thinking when I made the post. I just wanted to see if someone had something else to say about it.
The only thing I guess would be helpful is to get an idea on what the heaviest but still most reliable setup for most uppers/rifles and then plan on ending up with two of those and a lighter one as a just in case I get weak ammo or have a combo that likes it a little lighter (14.5" middy or so I guess).
Still though, you're right. I'll just have to see what works. Ideally I find one buffer that works well enough to own two of them for two and three lowers I plan on using them with.
For what it's worth, I'm still not "SOLD" on the A5 system. I won't be until the testing, and that will be a least mid-summer. I try and steer clear of proprietary parts, but at least the tube could be replaced with an Armalite AR-10 tube in a real pinch, the buffer itself I don't see wearing out so I guess it's OK in this case.
BufordTJustice
05-14-12, 18:39
The good news: a std A5 buffer will work with all of the above setups.
As for what is optimal, I'd recommend exploring the heavier buffer weights. I run an A5H4 in my 14.5" middy with NiB carrier and it is 100% even on tula .223 55gr ammo. It eats a steady diet of XM193 though. Your only way to know is to experiment.
#nottheansweryouwerelookingfor
I suspect the heavier buffers will show a more marked improvement in shootability on the .300BLK/WTF and the 6.5G. The difference for anything but full NATO pressure 5.56 is pretty incremental.
You can't improve on 100% reliability, though.
I should note that I use a Colt rifle spring vice the supplied Vltor spring. The Colt spring is a little stronger than the Vltor and I found it made my carbine shoot a little flatter. Again, an incremental difference.
Hard to state without knowing gas port size and ammunition, and not many manufacturers publish their gas port specs.
I'm was looking online at Wilson Combat's new line of barrels and was quite surprised that they actualy publish this information.
Jester67CA
05-14-12, 21:33
The standard A5 buffer has 2 steel and 2 tungsten weights and weighs 5.3oz. This should work with all of the guns you listed. Some people have reported problems with 14.5" barrels w/ mid-length gas systems.
If you feel the need to change buffer weights, buy another A5 standard buffer. You will have 4 steel weights and 4 tungsten weights. You will be able to open up the buffer itself and change them out at will.
Before you do that, try the standard. It should work.
BufordTJustice
05-15-12, 15:20
The standard A5 buffer has 2 steel and 2 tungsten weights and weighs 5.3oz. This should work with all of the guns you listed. Some people have reported problems with 14.5" barrels w/ mid-length gas systems.
If you feel the need to change buffer weights, buy another A5 standard buffer. You will have 4 steel weights and 4 tungsten weights. You will be able to open up the buffer itself and change them out at will.
Before you do that, try the standard. It should work.
This is true, except for the A5H4. The buffer weight adjacent to the delrin buffer tip has a machined void into it's rear portion that accepts the spring. There is also a cavity in the 'front' of the delrin buffer tip (facing the weights), to allow for room for the spring to fully compress without binding.
You can't make an A5H4 without actually buying one because the last tungsten weight has a void machined into it. Well, if you can machine tungsten without cracking or chipping it then maybe.
The lighter variations, you can make.
I say this as somebody who "had" to buy an A5H4. ;)
jonconsiglio
05-15-12, 17:14
Who makes the 14.5"? With my BCM, I was running it with me tungsten then went back to an H and carbine RE.
I have 10's of thousands of rounds on the A5 in everything from 8" 6.8 to 20" 5.56 including some same set ups from different manufacturers. Many of them suppressed, but not all. My 10.5" LMT really likes the standard A5 as do all the others except my 14.5" mid length.
Figure out the cyclic rates and go from there. It should work well with all, but watch the 14.5" mid length.
jonconsiglio
05-15-12, 17:16
I don't understand why you couldn't just use 4 tungsten weights? I don't know how that spring would change anything, but I guess I'd have to see it. In mine, the little spring is part of the cap. Also, you don't have to run it with the spring.
4 tungsten weights is a bit much for anything listed in the OP though, in my opinion, even suppressed.
Who makes the 14.5"? With my BCM, I was running it with me tungsten then went back to an H and carbine RE.
I have 10's of thousands of rounds on the A5 in everything from 8" 6.8 to 20" 5.56 including some same set ups from different manufacturers. Many of them suppressed, but not all. My 10.5" LMT really likes the standard A5 as do all the others except my 14.5" mid length.
Figure out the cyclic rates and go from there. It should work well with all, but watch the 14.5" mid length.
I chucked my currently only A5/H4 lower on a dirty DD 14.5" Middy (in need of cleaning, had only been lubed with some really old straight 30 motor oil I found in the garage) and did successfully get it to short stroke once out of a couple mags.
Nothing else has made either of those halves stutter, and that A5 lower is destined for suppressed SBR use anyway.
This is true, except for the A5H4. The buffer weight adjacent to the delrin buffer tip has a machined void into it's rear portion that accepts the spring. There is also a cavity in the 'front' of the delrin buffer tip (facing the weights), to allow for room for the spring to fully compress without binding.
You can't make an A5H4 without actually buying one because the last tungsten weight has a void machined into it.
Correct, both the last weight and the cap are machined to retain and accept the spring.
I don't understand why you couldn't just use 4 tungsten weights? I don't know how that spring would change anything, but I guess I'd have to see it. In mine, he little spring is part of the cap. Also, you don't have to run it with the spring.
4 tungsten weights is a bit much for anything listed in the OP though, in my opinion, even suppressed.
You could run no spring, but it is reported / believed to provide some benefit.
The H4 is very heavy and an H3+1 would probably be fine too.
Who makes the 14.5"? With my BCM, I was running it with me tungsten then went back to an H and carbine RE.
Figure out the cyclic rates and go from there. It should work well with all, but watch the 14.5" mid length.
By most reports, that middy runs a very small gas port that provides very soft cycling but can have issues running heavier buffers.
If I had six uppers that needed to run on two lowers, interchangeability would be a key factor.
I'd stick with A5H2 buffers in both lowers, test all uppers and adjust gas ports sizes on any uppers that didn't run properly.
I realize this may not be practical for everyone, but it seems to be the "rightest" solution.
jonconsiglio
05-15-12, 18:20
Yeah, I'm pretty in tune with the A5, sorry if I came off wrong earlier. I have probably 30,000 rounds on them or so. I was just asking him who makes his 14.5" mid length since that clue me in to which buffer would work best for him.
I can run everything I own, which is 7 uppers from 8" to 20" including a 6.8, and also both of my sr15's that I no longer have (old gas port and new, larger one) plus a 9" 300blk all on the standard A5 and most suppressed.
I usually run 855 or 193 with some TSX, TAP and Mk262 mixed in on occasion. (318 on a rare occasion). But don't get me wrong, I'll run anything in a pinch and have no issues running steel case. I just order 5.56.
My BCM 14.5" mid length (which uses the smallest of 14.5" mid length gas ports) feels sluggish with the standard A5, especially after 400 or 500 rounds or so. So, I lightened and this made a noticeable difference, but still felt a little off in terms of responsiveness. Finally, I just decided to leave the A5's in their standard configuration for my SBR's and 16" Colt and run a carbine RE and H buffer for the 14.5" mid length.
So, for the OP, I think the standard A5 will work fine for everything though the 14.5", depending on manufacturer, may get sluggish.
As for the spring, I wasn't aware it was recommended. Vltor had told me it wasn't needed and some actually prefer to not run it since a true rifle buffer has free floated weights.
But, I still leave it in there.
This is true, except for the A5H4. The buffer weight adjacent to the delrin buffer tip has a machined void into it's rear portion that accepts the spring. There is also a cavity in the 'front' of the delrin buffer tip (facing the weights), to allow for room for the spring to fully compress without binding.
I had a standard A5 buffer that I wanted to turn into an A5H4 with an H2 that I had lying around. I contacted Vltor regarding removal of the spring from the buffer, this was their response:
It will function perfectly without the spring. The spring silences the extra travel we added inside the buffer. Both the extra travel and the spring are patent pending..
Thanks for the interest.
I ended up drilling about 1mm deeper into the buffer tip to make up for the lack of indentation in the weight, it functions as it should.
jonconsiglio
05-15-12, 19:15
I chucked my currently only A5/H4 lower on a dirty DD 14.5" Middy (in need of cleaning, had only been lubed with some really old straight 30 motor oil I found in the garage) and did successfully get it to short stroke once out of a couple mags.
Nothing else has made either of those halves stutter, and that A5 lower is destined for suppressed SBR use anyway.
I missed this earlier. To clarify my post, my BCM 14.5" mid length always worked with the standard A5. The reason I went lighter then to the H was it just felt a little sluggish. It didn't fail on me, but something just didn't feel right, if that makes sense.
Now, with the LMT 10.5", suppressed or not, the A5 just smooths it out so much and keeps it running extremely reliable. It was reliable before, but different ammo and whether it was suppressed or not made a difference in the way it felt. When I went to the A5, it all feels pretty much the same and as an added benefit, there's less muzzle flip.
sinlessorrow
05-15-12, 22:50
I don't understand why you couldn't just use 4 tungsten weights? I don't know how that spring would change anything, but I guess I'd have to see it. In mine, the little spring is part of the cap. Also, you don't have to run it with the spring.
4 tungsten weights is a bit much for anything listed in the OP though, in my opinion, even suppressed.
here is a pic of the standard A5 buffer
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa273/SinlesSorrow/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3584.jpg
notice the spring in the last steel weight
jonconsiglio
05-15-12, 23:15
here is a pic of the standard A5 buffer
notice the spring in the last steel weight
Thanks buddy. I haven't had it open except once more than 6 months ago. Looks familiar now.
BufordTJustice
05-15-12, 23:36
Who makes the 14.5"? With my BCM, I was running it with me tungsten then went back to an H and carbine RE.
I have 10's of thousands of rounds on the A5 in everything from 8" 6.8 to 20" 5.56 including some same set ups from different manufacturers. Many of them suppressed, but not all. My 10.5" LMT really likes the standard A5 as do all the others except my 14.5" mid length.
Figure out the cyclic rates and go from there. It should work well with all, but watch the 14.5" mid length.
Jon, BCM made my complete upper.
It is important to note that I run an NiB carrier. It has been my experience that using a std carrier dictates using a lighter buffer weight than I run.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
BufordTJustice
05-15-12, 23:44
Phreakish has stated that the silencing spring, as it is called, also serves to stabilize the cyclic rate by ensuring that the full mass of the internal buffer weights is presented to the rear of the bolt carrier when the bolt is in battery. This makes for a slower and more predictable bolt unlocking sequence. I'm sure it will run without the spring... But that also means discarding some of the engineering genius of the system.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
Phreakish has stated that the silencing spring, as it is called, also serves to stabilize the cyclic rate by ensuring that the full mass of the internal buffer weights is presented to the rear of the bolt carrier when the bolt is in battery. This makes for a slower and more predictable bolt unlocking sequence.
^^That's the one.
Without the spring, the weights can be in random positions just before firing.
That would cause the buffer to act differently each time.
Sometimes the buffer acts heavy, sometimes it starts light and gets heavy once the weights stack up.
BufordTJustice
05-16-12, 02:02
^^That's the one.
Without the spring, the weights can be in random positions just before firing.
That would cause the buffer to act differently each time.
Sometimes the buffer acts heavy, sometimes it starts light and gets heavy once the weights stack up.
Exactly. And there is enough room inside the buffer for the bolt to be almost completely unlocked and only encounter the resistance of the mass of the buffer body (.9oz....it's just aluminum) if the weights are stacked in a fully rearward position.
That means the majority of the "pre-unlocking" cam pin path can be traversed with essentially ZERO buffer weight applied (.9oz + spring pressure from the action spring). This is not a critical failure, as normal buffers have this variability as a matter of course. However, it is to the A5's advantage that it removes this variable.
EDIT: I'm no engineer, but this can only be beneficial for Bolt longevity. How much life might it add to a Bolt? I dunno.
Bumping an old one here...
Do you cats know what is in an A5 "-1" buffer? I was given one... and I don't have a scale that measure in the range of buffer weights.
It seems lighter than the standard A5. :confused:
H0, 3.8 oz
H1, 4.56oz
H2, 5.33oz
H3, 6.08oz
H4, 6.83oz
The H1's most commonly used in midlength 14.5s.
So does the "-" sign mean Negative 1 or H1? And how does that align with the STANDARD that you get with NO markings?
Why did these monkies make something so simple.. such a goat screw??
I hate to have to drive down to Tucson and straighten that whole operation out. :mad:
LOL
First time I saw the '-1' I was a little puzzled, then I saw the '-0' buffers too. And yeah, wish the std buffed were labeled like the others, and they are if you buy them seperately. Only when they're purchased in kit form are they the non-descript style. I had the exact same WTF thought, lol.
The_Hammer_Man
02-22-13, 09:17
What I've taken to doing instead of changing buffer weights is to change buffer springs.
If the recoil is too snappy for my poor arthritic shoulder I up the power of the buffer spring.
Why do this? It's cheaper and just as fast as swapping buffers. Also, in today's post panic market the damned A5 buffers are just a little hard to find.
Glad there hasn't been a "panic run" on buffer springs yet.
After dicking around and spending hundreds on all of this BS for years, I finally found a system that I have been 100% happy with all of my rifles - reliable and soft shooting. Same RE (A5 RE-10), same buffer (A5 H1), same spring (Polished, +7% JP, rifle length), same gas block (Syrac Adj.), same BCG (NiB WMD + Lube).
This is THE best setup IMO and is reliable as hell. Very little friction, works with all ammo types clean/dirty, let's you tune each gun to it's absolute best. Some need very little tuning, some need/benefit a bunch. Gas block does NOT change or loosen. Runs the low-power stuff when dirty.
Done and done.
So does the "-" sign mean Negative 1 or H1? And how does that align with the STANDARD that you get with NO markings?
Why did these monkies make something so simple.. such a goat screw??
I hate to have to drive down to Tucson and straighten that whole operation out. :mad:
The H2 should be the standard one, the number relates to the number of tungsten weights in the buffer. If its really an H-1, could it have aluminum weights or something in it?
The H2 should be the standard one
That's what I need to know.... In case I have to part out a carbine H somthing buffer to make the -1 a standard buffer.
That's what I need to know.... In case I have to part out a carbine H somthing buffer to make the -1 a standard buffer.
Yep, I ended up buying a standard Vltor and an standard H2 to get the weight that I wanted.
jonconsiglio
02-22-13, 11:00
That's what I need to know.... In case I have to part out a carbine H somthing buffer to make the -1 a standard buffer.
What you have is likely what I've been running since right after they were released so it would work well in my 14.5" mid, though I went back to a carbine RE for that rifle.
I'm guessing the -1 is the standard A5 with one tungsten replaced with a stainless. So, three stainless and one tungsten, if I remember correctly. In my 10.5" and even my 6720, the standard A5 was slow enough that I could feel a ca-chunk for lack of a better term. With one tungsten removed, it cycles quicker, but still keeps it reliable with all my rifles.
If I'm not mistaken (again), the two tungsten/two stainless weighs the same as the rifle RE's five stainless. As you're aware, the H1, H2, etc., does not relate to a carbine RE's H, H1, H2, etc.
In all the rifles I've owned since the A5 was released besides my BCM 14.5" mid length, the best setup for my needs was replacing one tungsten with one stainless weight (A5H1) with a standard rifle action spring. From 10.5" up to an 18" rifle gas system, this has been the most reliable while still feeling quick in hand. The standard A5 was reliable, but felt a little sluggish, even when suppressing the 10.5". Backing off one tungsten fixed that without sacrificing reliability across the different barrel lengths and gas systems.
Yep... I have a 14.5 Middy that has an .080" port... as opposed to the .076" that comes on a BCM.
So the -1 might be just right.
jonconsiglio
02-22-13, 11:11
Yep... I have a 14.5 Middy that has an .080" port... as opposed to the .076" that comes on a BCM.
So the -1 might be just right.
Even with the standard A5 my BCM 14.5" mid ran well, it just felt sluggish. I rarely run junk ammo, so it wasn't a concern. One time when Matt (Munch520) came down, we had some failures with Tula, or something similar. But, that was expected.
Swapping the buffer in the A5 to a -1 did the trick. But, in the end, a carbine RE with an H buffer just felt more solid. I wouldn't hesitate to run the BCM with the -1 A5 though if I needed to for some reason.
I know what you mean exactly. I've gone through all these stages with various guns. The slightly larger port on this Sabre barrel may just be perfect. I can't wait til tomorrow to shoot the sucker.
I just go to the Vltor website and get the weights right from there. FWIW- I have a BCM/6920 hybrid that markm has shot and it has a -3 buffer and green Sprinco spring and it runs perfect. I have used several different ammo types thus far.
Midway lists the buffer weights in a sensible manner and clarifies that the H2 is the standard. I think if VLTOR marked them as H(#) instead of this "-" crap.. us simple folk wouldn't get all flustered.
Combine that minus crap with the fact that none of the buffer kits I've bought are marked at all, and it's a herd of turtles.
Jon, how do you think an SR15 would run on the A5H1?
Jon, how do you think an SR15 would run on the A5H1?
Pre or post gashole fix? Post, I'd say H1, pre I'd say H0, but I'd buy both and experiment.
Pre or post gashole fix? Post, I'd say H1, pre I'd say H0, but I'd buy both and experiment.
Post. I've recently picked up an H1 to try. We'll see how it goes.
Midway lists the buffer weights in a sensible manner and clarifies that the H2 is the standard. I think if VLTOR marked them as H(#) instead of this "-" crap.. us simple folk wouldn't get all flustered.
Combine that minus crap with the fact that none of the buffer kits I've bought are marked at all, and it's a herd of turtles.
The "-" is what confused me. I've never seen the other buffers, only the standard one, I didn't know how they were marked.
I've been running a Noveske 10.5" switchblock upper w/ A5H4, Sprinco green spring, and LMT enhanced carrier since August. Exceptionally light recoil but doesn't feel too sluggish. Cycles XM193, MK318, FBIT3, MK262, Prvi, ADI, AE223, Tula, Wolf, and various reloads without issue, even when filthy. Difference in recoil is almost unnoticeable between 5.56 and .223 loads which I really like.
Some batches of PMC Bronze have short stroked like gangbusters though. I swap down to an A5H3 if I have a shit ton of that and it cycles fine.
ETA: Can you buy the H0 and H1 variants?......Nevermind, answered my own question...I didn't realize they were available commercially...
BufordTJustice
02-22-13, 17:30
I just go to the Vltor website and get the weights right from there. FWIW- I have a BCM/6920 hybrid that markm has shot and it has a -3 buffer and green Sprinco spring and it runs perfect. I have used several different ammo types thus far.
I recently changed my patrol setup to an H4 buffer and the std Vltor spring up from the H3 and the Springco Green. I found that shooting pairs using XM193 offhand at 50 yards was slightly faster using the heavier H4 buffer and 'lighter' Vltor factory A5 spring than with that same buffer and the Springco or the H3 and the Springco. I had slightly less muzzle movement on the return-to-battery stroke with the heavier buffer and lighter spring. Emphasis on the "slight" difference. If somebody doesn't train often, I doubt they would notice the difference since both are so much smoother than a carbine setup.
The wifebag runs her PSA 14.7" CHF middy with the H3 buffer and Springco green spring and prefers that to the H4/Vltor spring in her gun.
BufordTJustice
02-22-13, 17:35
The "-" is what confused me. I've never seen the other buffers, only the standard one, I didn't know how they were marked.
I've been running a Noveske 10.5" switchblock upper w/ A5H4, Sprinco green spring, and LMT enhanced carrier since August. Exceptionally light recoil but doesn't feel too sluggish. Cycles XM193, MK318, FBIT3, MK262, Prvi, ADI, AE223, Tula, Wolf, and various reloads without issue, even when filthy. Difference in recoil is almost unnoticeable between 5.56 and .223 loads which I really like.
Some batches of PMC Bronze have short stroked like gangbusters though. I swap down to an A5H3 if I have a shit ton of that and it cycles fine.
ETA: Can you buy the H0 and H1 variants?......Nevermind, answered my own question...I didn't realize they were available commercially...
It's already been stated (tho not sure if in this thread) that the Vltor A5 buffer uses std buffer weights of steel and tungsten with the exception of the weight adjacent to the Delrin tip (with has a machined "cup" that seats the silencing spring). So, you can break open any carbine buffer and swap the tungsten and steel weights. All you need is a hammer and a 2mm starter punch to get the drift pin moving and a 3mm straight punch to move it all of the way out. Grab the delrin tip with some pliers and pull. Boom. You can make any variation of the Vltor buffer except the H4 (which has a tungsten weight with the machined cup that only comes with the H4).
It's already been stated (tho not sure if in this thread) that the Vltor A5 buffer uses std buffer weights of steel and tungsten with the exception of the weight adjacent to the Delrin tip (with has a machined "cup" that seats the silencing spring). So, you can break open any carbine buffer and swap the tungsten and steel weights. All you need is a hammer and a 2mm starter punch to get the drift pin moving and a 3mm straight punch to move it all of the way out. Grab the delrin tip with some pliers and pull. Boom. You can make any variation of the Vltor buffer except the H4 (which has a tungsten weight with the machined cup that only comes with the H4).
I just wasn't aware you could buy the H0/H1, I don't remember ever seeing it before. I turned my H2 into an H3/H4 with and carbine H2 I had laying around. The spring can be taken out of the A5 buffer if you want to toss a 4th tungsten weight in there. It's more or less there to keep the buffer quiet, no functional impact. I drilled a small cup in the buffer tip so I could still use it. One thing I did notice is that a tip from another buffer wouldn't fit on my A5, the hole would not line up. May have been the other buffer though, it was a gunshow special....
ETA: Here's the response I got regarding the spring:
It will function perfectly without the spring. The spring silences the extra travel we added inside the buffer. Both the extra travel and the spring are patent pending.
At one point Vltor told me in an email that they use the same weights that Colt uses in their buffers but I can't find it right now.
What buffer would be good for a DD 14.5 middy and a DD 16 inch middy? My next build will be a DD 16 inch barrel unless I find a BCM 16 middy for a good price.
What buffer would be good for a DD 14.5 middy and a DD 16 inch middy? My next build will be a DD 16 inch barrel unless I find a BCM 16 middy for a good price.
New build so not that many rounds out the front but I have been running a DD 14.5" middy (w/.076 gas port) with an A5H2 and green springco spring and it runs everything so far reliably. Up to the weakest ammo I shoot which is PMC .223 Bronze.
-Jax
BufordTJustice
02-22-13, 19:03
I just wasn't aware you could buy the H0/H1, I don't remember ever seeing it before. I turned my H2 into an H3/H4 with and carbine H2 I had laying around. The spring can be taken out of the A5 buffer if you want to toss a 4th tungsten weight in there. It's more or less there to keep the buffer quiet, no functional impact. I drilled a small cup in the buffer tip so I could still use it. One thing I did notice is that a tip from another buffer wouldn't fit on my A5, the hole would not line up. May have been the other buffer though, it was a gunshow special....
ETA: Here's the response I got regarding the spring:
At one point Vltor told me in an email that they use the same weights that Colt uses in their buffers but I can't find it right now.
Well, the spring does a little more than nothing.
A normal buffer that is in-battery has weights inside that could be resting at any point within the free-travel area of the interior of the buffer. This means that it is possible that, during firing, the bolt could begin to unlock and ONLY encounter the mass of the buffer body, which is aluminum (weighs ~.4oz) for the first 1/4" of travel of the bolt carrier group.
This means that during the critical unlocking phase, the bolt and carrier could accelerate to the rear MUCH too quickly and unlock too soon since virtually zero resistance is offered by the buffer. The additional problem here is that, in a normal buffer this effect is unpredictable.
The "silencing spring" in the A5 buffer is not an accident and is not there purely to quiet the mechanism, though it certainly has that effect. It is also there so that the full mass of the buffer assembly is presented to the rear of the bolt carrier while it is in battery, thereby offering CONSISTENT resistance during the unlocking phase of the bolt carrier group and guaranteeing that the BCG doesn't see only the mass of the buffer body (which might as well be just air).
I have also seen this have the effect of stabilizing the cyclic rate when shooting strings of full auto.
It's science. :D
Had a SR-15 CQB running A5 RE, A5H3 buffer, Springco Green spring, LMT enhanced carrier... ran 100% this was with a mixture of ammo, suppressed and not. Currently I have a 14.5" SR-15 Carbine gun setup the exact same way with a pinned & welded BCM Mod 1 comp... zero rounds through this gun so far... I am looking forward to shooting with two other M4C members that are in Georgia (cough, mtdawg169, cough) and I will verify this setup runs 100% on KAC's flavor of 14.5.
This is an excellent description of the A5 system.
This is also the reason that it can be more reliable than the CAR or rifle buffers.
Well, the spring does a little more than nothing.
A normal buffer that is in-battery has weights inside that could be resting at any point within the free-travel area of the interior of the buffer. This means that it is possible that, during firing, the bolt could begin to unlock and ONLY encounter the mass of the buffer body, which is aluminum (weighs ~.4oz) for the first 1/4" of travel of the bolt carrier group.
This means that during the critical unlocking phase, the bolt and carrier could accelerate to the rear MUCH too quickly and unlock too soon since virtually zero resistance is offered by the buffer. The additional problem here is that, in a normal buffer this effect is unpredictable.
The "silencing spring" in the A5 buffer is not an accident and is not there purely to quiet the mechanism, though it certainly has that effect. It is also there so that the full mass of the buffer assembly is presented to the rear of the bolt carrier while it is in battery, thereby offering CONSISTENT resistance during the unlocking phase of the bolt carrier group and guaranteeing that the BCG doesn't see only the mass of the buffer body (which might as well be just air).
I have also seen this have the effect of stabilizing the cyclic rate when shooting strings of full auto.
It's science. :D
BufordTJustice
02-23-13, 01:59
This is an excellent description of the A5 system.
This is also the reason that it can be more reliable than the CAR or rifle buffers.
Thank you, sir. :)
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
Does anybody know where to get a h3 or h4 buffer? I can't find them anywhere.
I rolled my own H3s out of VLTOR A5H2s that come with the kit using a spare BCM H3 buffer.
If you have to go heavier you will need to source the H4 as mentioned in the thread.
I actually made my own also, but I am unable to locate any other buffers. I have two REs but nothing else.
Just some updates on some more A5 testing we did today.
20" FN Rifle upper with Vltor -3 and -4 buffers. Ran smooth as butter with M193, M855 and some markm .223 handloads.
16" Colt 6920 barrel with Vltor -3 and -4. Same ammo as above. Again all the ammo cycled and the gun was smooth with very little climb. This one also had the new(ish) BCM Mod 1 Comp.
We then switched it up and ran it with the same configuration and the LMT enhanced carrier. I was almost like shooting a 22 magnum.
The -3 had three tungsten weights and the -4 has four, right? The -4 is the heaviest offered, correct?
No idea. I just follow the website. H3 weighs like 6.08 and the H4 is like 6.83.
The -3 had three tungsten weights and the -4 has four, right? The -4 is the heaviest offered, correct?
BufordTJustice
02-24-13, 02:52
The -3 had three tungsten weights and the -4 has four, right? The -4 is the heaviest offered, correct?
Yes, yes, and yes. :)
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jonconsiglio
02-24-13, 05:45
Post. I've recently picked up an H1 to try. We'll see how it goes.
I had two SR15's with the different ports and I only tried them with standard buffers, if I remember correctly. The newer one ran fine with m855/193 and other decent ammo, but felt sluggish with some cheaper ammo. The older port size was ok, but just never felt solid. After they got pretty dirty, they just didn't feel as quick as they should, if that makes any sense.
I'd think the A5 with only one tungsten would be fine, especially with the newer port size. Unfortunately, I don't have anything certain to say on it. I ultimately went back to the factory KAC buffer on the older me and an H buffer on the newer one. The reason for the H is that KAC lower was shared with a carbine gas 14.5" at the time.
Quality ammo and it should be fine. It shot flat(ter) with the A5, noticeably.
I had two SR15's with the different ports and I only tried them with standard buffers, if I remember correctly. The newer one ran fine with m855/193 and other decent ammo, but felt sluggish with some cheaper ammo. The older port size was ok, but just never felt solid. After they got pretty dirty, they just didn't feel as quick as they should, if that makes any sense.
I'd think the A5 with only one tungsten would be fine, especially with the newer port size. Unfortunately, I don't have anything certain to say on it. I ultimately went back to the factory KAC buffer on the older me and an H buffer on the newer one. The reason for the H is that KAC lower was shared with a carbine gas 14.5" at the time.
Quality ammo and it should be fine. It shot flat(ter) with the A5, noticeably.
Thanks for the insight Jon. I appreciate it.
Finally zero'd and ran about 180 rounds of IMI M193 through my KAC 14.5" Carbine rifle setup with A5 RE, -3 buffer, SpringCo green rifle spring, LMT enhanced carrier and BCM Mod 1 Comp. I thought I was playing lasertag... :D No issues, good ejection, will continue to run the gun as is until I get a stoppage or failure or I hit 1000 rounds without cleaning or re-lubing.
BufordTJustice
02-24-13, 14:24
Finally zero'd and ran about 180 rounds of IMI M193 through my KAC 14.5" Carbine rifle setup with A5 RE, -3 buffer, SpringCo green rifle spring, LMT enhanced carrier and BCM Mod 1 Comp. I thought I was playing lasertag... :D No issues, good ejection, will continue to run the gun as is until I get a stoppage or failure or I hit 1000 rounds without cleaning or re-lubing.
E-man, if you do some polishing as noted in my thread a while back, you'll see some additional insurance against short stroking. I lightly polished the sides of the carrier key, the 'pads' on the carrier that constitute the carrier rails, and the bottom of the carrier where the hammer rides. You could use a felt dremel tip with no compound on low speed, or a shop rag, some jeweler's rouge, and some elbow grease. It really made a difference for me.
Still, as Jon noted, this setup is to be taken on a gun-by-gun basis as it clearly did not work for him.
Keep us updated?
I forgot to mention polishing the bearing surfaces is SOP for me... :D
Will keep everyone in the loop, I think I'm pushing my luck with a -3 buffer based on ejected brass hitting the outer edge of the shell deflector but I want to see how far it will go.
Also, should we mention what gen LMT carrier we are running? (as there are now 5 gens since they started making them)
BufordTJustice
02-24-13, 17:38
Also, should we mention what gen LMT carrier we are running? (as there are now 5 gens since they started making them)
I'm running a gen-1 on my wife's AR (no sand cuts, no bevel on the 3 gas ports, and an un-staked gas key) and a gen-5 (the most current version purchased directly from LMT) in my patrol carbine.
Just some updates on some more A5 testing we did today.
I can confirm that Gunz... ACTUALLY showed up and did LIVE FIRING of ammunition. :eek:
For those interested, a few more data points to add to the collective using the A5 buffer system. The only A5 buffer I could find was an A5H0, so I modded it by swapping two steel weights with two tungsten weights to bring it to a weight equivelant to the A5H2; it ended up weighing 5.35 oz. per my electronic scale.
I've only put 500 rounds through the system but so far so good. It shoots smoothly, consistently and without issue on all my uppers, both suppressed and un-suppressed with a variety of ammo. Here's what I've tried so far:
Lower:
Daniel Defense lower w/ A5 RE, A5H2 (modded as described above), green Springco spring
Uppers:
10.3" DD with DD BCG, (suppressed and un-suppressed)
12.5" BCM with BCM BCG (un-suppressed)
16" BCM mid-length gas system with BCM BCG (un-suppressed)
9" AAC Blackout with AAC BCG (suppressed and un-spressed)
Shot a mix of:
Federal XM193 5.56 55 grain FMJBT
Hornady TAP 223 Remington 60 Grain Hornady
PMC Bronze .223 Rem. FMJBT 55 Grain
Prvi Partizan M193 Ammunition 55 Grain FMJ
and for the 300 blk upper:
Cor-Bon Self-Defense Ammunition 300 Whisper 125 Grain JHP
300 BLK Remington Subsonic 220 Grain OTM
I'm happy with it and look forward to trying the A5 on other lowers.
- skydive
I had to do this too on Friday night. Made an H2 out of an H1 by subbing a weight.
My only concern was the marking on the buffer face. So I removed the "-1" to avoid mistaking the buffer for what it really now is.
I had to do this too on Friday night. Made an H2 out of an H1 by subbing a weight.
My only concern was the marking on the buffer face. So I removed the "-1" to avoid mistaking the buffer for what it really now is.
I'll one up that, err, 3 up that.
Since ALL A5 BUFFERS are sold out the world over... I found an A5H0 at midway and also bought an H3 carbine buffer from Brownells. Popped all the tungsten from the H3 and made myself a sweet A5H3. Hate to do that, but there are NO A5 BUFFERS anywhere and I needed one.
So I'd like to ask WHY there are no A5 buffers and why Vltor told me it would be SIX MONTHS until they are stocking them again.... ?
The only logical reason for this would be if they had a very large military order, but even then... It's an aluminum tube with some generic weights inside it and one special steel one with a spring (with the exception of the A5H4 where that one would have to be tungsten as well).... Makes me doubt their dedication to the A5 system if they are willing to forgo making such an easy part for so long. :(
I spoke to someone recently at Vltor and was told it was a supplier issue. I was told that the situation may be fixed in the next 30-45 days and stuff should start to get shipped out.
I'll one up that, err, 3 up that.
Since ALL A5 BUFFERS are sold out the world over... I found an A5H0 at midway and also bought an H3 carbine buffer from Brownells. Popped all the tungsten from the H3 and made myself a sweet A5H3. Hate to do that, but there are NO A5 BUFFERS anywhere and I needed one.
So I'd like to ask WHY there are no A5 buffers and why Vltor told me it would be SIX MONTHS until they are stocking them again.... ?
The only logical reason for this would be if they had a very large military order, but even then... It's an aluminum tube with some generic weights inside it and one special steel one with a spring (with the exception of the A5H4 where that one would have to be tungsten as well).... Makes me doubt their dedication to the A5 system if they are willing to forgo making such an easy part for so long. :(
I spoke to someone recently at Vltor and was told it was a supplier issue. I was told that the situation may be fixed in the next 30-45 days and stuff should start to get shipped out.
I was also told it was supplier issue. But then told that it would be (literally) SIX MONTHS before they were shipping again. We'll see, because there is not one single A5 buffer in any store I could find on the internet.
Clint / Slash Buffers has said he'll make clones, but at $100 per for one offs.
BufordTJustice
05-07-13, 03:34
I was also told it was supplier issue. But then told that it would be (literally) SIX MONTHS before they were shipping again. We'll see, because there is not one single A5 buffer in any store I could find on the internet.
Clint / Slash Buffers has said he'll make clones, but at $100 per for one offs.
If he does, they would need to have the EXACT interior dimensions of the A5 buffer AND include the "silencing spring" as well. Since his buffer bodies are made out of SS, it would probably end up being a 9+oz buffer.
I know a bud who uses his XH rifle buffer for his 6.8 build and swears he won't use another buffer ever...but he loads his 6.8 HOT.
Might be worth an email....
There may also be some patent issues as well. I spoke with my patent attorney friend about this just a couple of hours ago strangely enough.
If he does, they would need to have the EXACT interior dimensions of the A5 buffer AND include the "silencing spring" as well. Since his buffer bodies are made out of SS, it would probably end up being a 9+oz buffer.
I know a bud who uses his XH rifle buffer for his 6.8 build and swears he won't use another buffer ever...but he loads his 6.8 HOT.
Might be worth an email....
BufordTJustice
05-07-13, 04:09
There may also be some patent issues as well. I spoke with my patent attorney friend about this just a couple of hours ago strangely enough.
Ah. Excellent point.
There may also be some patent issues as well. I spoke with my patent attorney friend about this just a couple of hours ago strangely enough.
If you make one for medicinal use can you rip off the design? :D
There may also be some patent issues as well. I spoke with my patent attorney friend about this just a couple of hours ago strangely enough.
IIRC, the patent issue would be only with the little spring inside. Leave that out and it's only marginally different than existing buffers. If it were me, I'd make clones and sell them without the spring, but with instructions for the user to add it if they wanted to.
I HIGHLY doubt Vltor's legal guy was able to convince the patent office that a tube with 4 weights in it is patently different that the one with 3 weights in it.
Plus, didn't the original A5s come without the spring anyhow? I like it as it quiets the sloshing down.
The buffer body dimensions are completely unique and different from the Rifle or Carbine buffer.
And I take the spring out of my A5 buffers anyway.
The buffer body dimensions are completely unique and different from the Rifle or Carbine buffer.
And I take the spring out of my A5 buffers anyway.
I can't imagine why you take the spring out! That imo is a major selling point that the buffer makes no noise when moved around.
Different dimensions of a very similar product are not patentable. This is obvious, because can you imagine the disaster that would be? Trademarks are a different thing, but in this case Vltor could not ask for a patent that. Apple was able to trademark rounded corners, but Vltor would have a tough time doing the same because the length is a function and not a design choice. If Vltor ribbed their buffer maybe they could trademark that.
"Yea, our product is exactly the same thing that's out there but it's a little longer and while looks nearly identical, we changed the other dimensions slightly. Other products have three weights, ours uses identical weights but there are four of them..... PATENT PLEASE!!".... Denied.
They could patent the addition of the spring as an improvement. They could also try and patent the combination of those parts into a system. That is, make the claim that they have an assembly of parts that although fundamentally identical to the existing technology works in a greatly improved fashion that is unique to these parts. I think this would be a tough sell, considering the Army using an H6 buffer, considering AR-10 tubes being longer, DPMS AR-10 buffers having unique length and weights. This would hardly be unique to the industry. But, this being the case, only someone selling the A5 length tube, A2 spring, and A5 length buffer in combination would be at risk of a lawsuit from Vltor.
IMO they would have the best bet with the little spring inside the buffer. But knowing what I know on patents from my day job, I'll call BS on anyone being in trouble for producing an A5 buffer by itself (sans spring if that's the claim). The Vltor part says Pat Pend, does anyone have their patent number?
I can't imagine why you take the spring out! That imo is a major selling point that the buffer makes no noise when moved around.
There's no spring in any buffers that precede this one. Noise reduction isn't a concern of mine. Guns are loud... even with silencers mounted.
I want my buffer to function normally.
As far as the patent stuff? I have no idea.
Found it.
http://www.google.com/patents/US8296984?dq=ininventor:%22Eric+Stephen+Kincel%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gD2JUcWUEaPgiALk0YHACw&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBA
With only 2 seconds of reading I'm currently only looking at the tiny spring as the patentable feature. That is, the patent appears to be for the entire idea/system. However, that tiny little spring is defined in each claim. If you were to remake the system without: "c) a spring contained within said sleeve; and," then you do not SEEM to have a conflicting part.... I read literally about 3 minutes of this, and I suck at reading patents, so take that for what it's worth.
Funny that one could also avoid the claims of the patent by using different shape and orientation weights. Or if one were to use all equal mass weights that would also avoid conflicting with the claims. Three weights in an A5 sized part would also be OK.
So... there are about a million things you could do to get around this patent, but the good one, and I suspect the only one they care about is the little spring. The "A spring within the sleeve maintains the mass at a predetermined location when the buffer is in an at-rest position." spring.
Found it.
http://www.google.com/patents/US8296984?dq=ininventor:%22Eric+Stephen+Kincel%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gD2JUcWUEaPgiALk0YHACw&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBA
With only 2 seconds of reading I'm currently only looking at the tiny spring as the patentable feature.
That's funny. The only part I don't like about the system. :p
There's no spring in any buffers that precede this one. Noise reduction isn't a concern of mine. Guns are loud... even with silencers mounted.
I want my buffer to function normally.
As far as the patent stuff? I have no idea.
The intended use of that spring appears to me, to be for consistency. All the weights are always "loaded" to the rear of the carrier at firing. I'd put the spring back in even if it didn't make more noise.
The intended use of that spring appears to me, to be for consistency. All the weights are always "loaded" to the rear of the carrier at firing. I'd put the spring back in even if it didn't make more noise.
Eh... I really didn't notice a big difference... And I did run one with the spring for a while. But I needed to convert it from an H1 to an H2 so I yanked the spring while I was in there.
Eh... I really didn't notice a big difference... And I did run one with the spring for a while. But I needed to convert it from an H1 to an H2 so I yanked the spring while I was in there.
IMO, the preload spring is a big part of the magic in this buffer along with the rifle weight and rifle spring.
The spring is what allows the A5 to be more consistent and more reliable than even a rifle buffer by keeping the weights loaded up against the back of the bolt carrier.
BufordTJustice
05-08-13, 05:06
IMO, the preload spring is a big part of the magic in this buffer along with the rifle weight and rifle spring.
The spring is what allows the A5 to be more consistent and more reliable than even a rifle buffer by keeping the weights loaded up against the back of the bolt carrier.
BOOM. THIS.
Mark, you're a smart guy, but I'd bet a Texas dollar that you couldn't feel bolt bounce either (i.e. "tell a difference"), but there IS a difference.....and I know that you already have full knowledge about issues regarding bolt bounce.
Also, the mass of the buffer weights is far greater than the mass of the buffer body. The spring causes the weights to gradually decelerate as opposed to coming to an abrupt stop....which decreases overall gun movement. When you're counting split times (or bad guys)...every little bit helps.
Clint, you already said it. The pre-load spring stabilizes the speed and timing of extraction and it also stabilizes the cyclic rate. :)
BOOM. THIS.
Mark, you're a smart guy, but I'd bet a Texas dollar that you couldn't feel bolt bounce either (i.e. "tell a difference"), but there IS a difference.....and I know that you already have full knowledge about issues regarding bolt bounce.
Hmmm... sounds like a bunch of liberal, carbon credit crap to me.... but If I get a chance, I'll make an effort to try it.
Ideally... I'd like to see high speed footage of a few full auto bursts on the same rig with and without the spring. That would remove all speculation.
BufordTJustice
05-08-13, 08:08
Hmmm... sounds like a bunch of liberal, carbon credit crap to me.... but If I get a chance, I'll make an effort to try it.
Ideally... I'd like to see high speed footage of a few full auto bursts on the same rig with and without the spring. That would remove all speculation.
Hehe. I want to sell some carbon credits. I'll stop breathing for $100 per second of withheld-breath. :cool:
I'm confident that we would see a difference on high speed video.
I had to do this too on Friday night. Made an H2 out of an H1 by subbing a weight.
My only concern was the marking on the buffer face. So I removed the "-1" to avoid mistaking the buffer for what it really now is.
Mark, what weight did you change in order to convert an A5H-1 into the A5H2?
I'm confident that we would see a difference on high speed video.
I'd love to see it. Maybe Springco will come out with a rainbow fruit colored spring to improve even more! :D
Shoot.. If it proved worthwhile in the A5... Why not put it in the Carbean buffers too? :confused:
Shoot.. If it proved worthwhile in the A5... Why not put it in the Carbean buffers too? :confused:
Well.. perhaps you missed the part where I talked about that being a claim in the patent...?
However... The way the patent reads, I don't see any reason a three-weight buffer could not have a spring collinear to the weights, as the Vltor/Eric patent only seems to cover 4 OR MORE weights.
My guess is that Vltor's patent was to stop another army contractor from ripping off their idea for the A2 to collapsible conversions. As it's written in a such a way that if someone wanted to, there seem to be fairly obvious ways to get around the patent in a commercial sense... The most obvious to me, being that you just don't include a spring with the part, but you do include the cut in the buffer and a matching cup in the endcap/bumper, the user could then modify if they wanted to, or run it grumpy-old-man-style like markm.
I need a high speed camera. :(
I need a high speed camera. :(
I have access to one, but not for a few weeks or so, and even then, I doubt I'd take the time (HS takes a lot of time) to test this because there is absolutely no issue to leaving the spring in there. I don't care because I am confident there is no negative. I completely understand the theory and trust that they wouldn't just include a spring and go through the patent process for nothing.
So... IMO, the better way to test it would be with even generic laptop audio equipment and a full-auto. I only have one of those things and it's not the fun one :(
Perhaps a shot timer and Full auto?
Andrew from Vurwhappinblog has some sort of high speed camera. I could try to find him on Facebook. He's into all this stuff. He's also a spring remover... or was last I communicated with him.
Perhaps a shot timer and Full auto?
Andrew from Vurwhappinblog has some sort of high speed camera. I could try to find him on Facebook. He's into all this stuff. He's also a spring remover... or was last I communicated with him.
He just made an account here. Over on the Battle Arms Company threads, it's his first and last name.
He just made an account here. Over on the Battle Arms Company threads, it's his first and last name.
Last I read, he was all assed up about the gun forums... and largely sticking to Social media. I think It's quicker to get ahold of him through Facebook.
This may very well be the dumbass question of the day but is there any reason you could not use a solid stainless buffer of the correct weight?
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Heavy Metal
06-29-13, 22:51
Actually, the MGI RRB had sprung weights almost two decades ago so the sprung weight thing is not Vltor's idea.
Well.. perhaps you missed the part where I talked about that being a claim in the patent...?
However... The way the patent reads, I don't see any reason a three-weight buffer could not have a spring collinear to the weights, as the Vltor/Eric patent only seems to cover 4 OR MORE weights.
My guess is that Vltor's patent was to stop another army contractor from ripping off their idea for the A2 to collapsible conversions. As it's written in a such a way that if someone wanted to, there seem to be fairly obvious ways to get around the patent in a commercial sense... The most obvious to me, being that you just don't include a spring with the part, but you do include the cut in the buffer and a matching cup in the endcap/bumper, the user could then modify if they wanted to, or run it grumpy-old-man-style like markm.
phaseshift
04-01-16, 22:33
Sorry to bring this from the dead,
I'll have two a5h2 buffers, I'm trying to create an a5h1 buffer how would the weights go in order? Is there anything I need to know if I do this on my a5 system?
Tungsten in first followed by 3 steel. Steel with hole facing spring in cap. I don't know why but that is how Vltor stacks them.
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