Getting the most out of your 5.56 SBR rifle with pricey .223 "hunting ammo"....

[ALCOAR]

Here's a small case I just conducted for why pricey .223 "hunting" helps significantly remove some of the traditional handicap that 5.56 SBR rifles have attributed to them.

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06036-1.jpg

TESTING:

Setup/procedure:

Host weapon: LMT MRP CQB w/ 10.5" 1/7 5.56 barrel

Distance to target: 25yds.

Ballistic test medium: 1gal. jugs of waters (3 jugs for both rounds)


Federal .223 62gr. Fusion

VS.

Barnes VOR-TX .223 55gr. TSX

Both rounds traveled completely through 2 jugs, where they both entered the third....and ultimately both actually pierced the third jug's back wall.

Final penetration depth for both using water as the medium....18"

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06068.jpg

The bullet pathway of both are displayed below, and if you'll note both rounds almost identically exploded the first jug, and then both rounds made very clean entrance/exit holes in the remaining 2 jugs.....

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06075.jpg

Below is a pic showing where the rounds ended up resting in the third and last jug after slightly piercing the jug's back wall, and then bouncing slightly forward.

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06062.jpg

Finally here are some pics of the two recovered projectiles....to the naked eye they both appear to have retained 99.9% of their original weight.

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06096.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06110.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06085.jpg

I got very lucky with those results I think, and the retained mass, combined with perfect textbook expansion on them both got me giddy as a damn kitty to see. A good expanding bullet is pretty damn cool if you ask me:cool:

What did I personally learn from this....

1.) My beloved TSX rounds that have been my mainstay for HD/PD purposes in conjunct with my MRP CQB 10.5" for some time now did exactly what I've seen them do in the past while testing them, as well as seen in others testing. I feel it's a game changing projectile on a variety of levels, but none more so than it's now familiar violent pedaled expansion ending with almost double it's original diameter expansion, and retaining almost 100% of the projectile's original weight.

I'm very confident in this round's ability to put down a threat all the way to roughly 300yds based on a 1800 FPS reliable expansion threshold, and my ballistic chart's MV that corresponds with that amount of FPS.....which lies between 250-300yds depending on one's own conditions.

Shown below is the actual ballistic chart for Barnes 55gr. TSX through the MRP CQB 10.5".......

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03691-1.jpg

2.) I still have two more important tests (accuracy eval/300yd jug test) for the Federal .223 62gr. Fusion before I start packing it in my HD/PD mags, however I'm flat out impressed as hell after the research I've done on them in regards to reliable expansion threshold numbers, and then the data from today when considering it for HD/PD purposes through 5.56 SBR length ARs. I thought recovered TSXs looked like pieces of fine art with that incredible pedaled expansion....but they don't have shit on what this fusion did. UNREAL perfect expansion and each of the little slivers has a perfect edge on it that like a knife.

[hotrodder636]

Man, what a beautiful rifle!

So I am guessing the Barnes is the all copper slug? Not too familiar with any hunting rounds.

[vaglocker]

Wouldn't a fragmenting round still be more desirable?

[TriumphRat675]

From my limited experience, the Fusion also has very good low-light characteristics. Shot out of an 11.5 in. Colt Commando at dusk there was very, very minimal flash, almost to the point of being nonexistent. Under the same conditions a 16 in. barreled Kalashnikov variant with a bare muzzle put out a pumpkin-sized and colored flash.

I had the same question about expansion vs. fragmentation and whether fragmentation would be a more effective wounding mechanism and started a thread some months ago in the terminal effectiveness section that DocGKR was kind enough to chime in on. IIRC, fragmenting ammo may be marginally more effective but in the SBR role barrier-blind expanding designs have more pros than cons. YMMV especially if your intended use is less than 25 yds/no barriers involved. Shot placement rules as always.

[ALCOAR]

hotrodder....I appreciate the kind words:) You are correct about the Barnes TSX line of bullets being all copper...minus the TTSX variety which just has a poly tip added to it to give it a better B.C.

They are very, very cool bullets to play around with...here is a .308 150gr. TTSX projectile after hitting a steel plate at roughly 825yds
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03669-1.jpg

And here are .223 55gr. TSXs (same ones as above) after hitting a steel plate @ 605yds....
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/SANY0017-1.jpg

And finally here is how I get so many damn ladies.....:D
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/SANY0023-1.jpg

vaglocker....I'm not sure there is a definitive answer in regards to a blanket statement on whether a fragmenting or expanding design is more desirable.

Personally I only have use for fragmenting rounds in my precision based ARs that are seeing the majority of time at distances over 600yds. To my knowledge there isn't any real uber accurate expanding pill for LR shooting. Every expanding designed round I've seen had horrible B.C.s in comparison to fragmenting designs, and you just can't escape that B.C. number when doing work at distance...it always plays.

So for LR targets, or unobstructed targets(wouldn't plan on that in a real world situation)....yes perhaps the fragmenting designed rounds like the MK262 Mod1 are more desired for those situations. By the way MK262 has notorious fragmenting issues that Ive personally even seen. Sometimes you'll get the round to fragment extensively into numerous pieces....other times you'll see the core body and maybe like one or two fragments.

Now for this topic of 5.56 SBR ARs...I'm under the firm belief that a bonded/barrier blind expanding round is easily the best pick.

The other time that I would easily say that a expanding round is favored is anytime one expects to have obstructed targets around barriers....especially glass to deal with.

So I just ask myself the question, when I face a potential HD/PD threat, whats more likely to happen?

1. The threat will be in a wide ass open area with clear unobstructed shots possible....

or

2. The threat will be around cars, homes, woods, etc., and therefore in order to eliminate the threat I'll very likely have a shot that will be either partly or fully obstructed by some type of everyday barrier.

Quote from DocGKR's 5.56 duty loads sticky...

" In those situations where intermediate barrier penetration is not a critical requirement, for example LE urban entries or long range shots in open conditions, then OTM, JHP, and standard JSP loads can offer acceptable performance. For 1/7 twist barrels, the Hornady 75 gr OTM, Nosler 77 gr OTM, and Sierra 77 gr SMK OTM are all good choices. The experimental BH loaded 100 gr OTM exhibits impressive fragmentation, even at relatively low velocities, however while capable of shooting out to 600, it is optimized for 200 and under. If stuck with 1/9 twist barrels, the heavy 70+ gr loads are not universally accurate in all rifles and the 69 gr SMK OTM, the 68 gr Hornady OTM, the Winchester 64 gr JSP (RA223R2), the Federal 64 gr TRU (T223L) JSP, Hornady 60 gr JSP, are likely to run accurately in the majority of 1/9 twist rifles. Again it is critical to keep in mind that the above loads fail to offer adequate penetration through intermediate barriers. "

And one more informative quote reflecting the use of barrier blind/expanding rounds for 5.56 SBRs.....

" Short barreled 5.56 mm weapons, such as the Colt Commando, Mk18 CQBR, HK416, HK53, HK G36C, etc… offer advantages in confined spaces. With SBR’s it is best to stick with the barrier blind loads recommended above, although the heavy OTM's suggested for long distance shooting will also work. SBR's can run into rotational velocity issues with some loads, so it is generally best to select faster 1/7 twist barrels whenever possible. Remember, with SBR’s, effective engagement distances are significantly reduced compared to the longer barreled carbines."

[hotrodder636]

I didn't see any mention of the MK318 Mod 0....I was under the impression it is a noteworthy round.

I also have a KAC IWS (SR15) but really like the LMT MRP on top of yours!

[Clint]

Nice test Trident.

Those fusion look to be the equal of the TSX (at least in this one test).

[BC98]

One item of note is that the Fusion bullet is essentially a Gold Dot. Same essential construction.

[jr0xas]

Awesome test man!!! Just in time too, since I just bought a box of 75gr Hornady BTHP .223s yesterday and was wondering if they'd do well.

Many thanks for posting this!

Just a quick question though - what is your take on which bullet weight to use? I noticed that you used both a 55gr and 62gr.

[ALCOAR]

Thanks Clint....and to my surprise I'd agree totally with you in regards to the Federal Fusion being a true equal to the loaded 55gr. TSX. With some further testing of it, I think it has the potential for my uses to be quite a bit better round than the TSX.

The big pros for the Fusion I see are....

I think it will reliably expand well below the TSX's 1800 FPS threshold.

Should equal the abilities of the 55gr. TSX through all types of barriers, and in terms of auto glass it should be the clear winner.

As the gent above mentioned....it's been reported by a few that it has a significantly reduced amount of flash.

BC98...indeed, and thanks for pointing that out.

jr0xas....glad I could help out brother, here is a bit of info on just my own personal preferences as I'm certainly no Doc:)

I remember just a cpl. years ago when myself and the majority of other serious AR shooters I knew pretty much held Hornady's TAP 5.56 75gr. T2 round as the king of PD/HD/Duty type ammo. I still do love T2 because of it's outstanding accuracy in my Rock 5R barrels, but today none of my designated HD/PD mags contain T2 or any other heavy OTM round for that matter like MK262 Mod1.

Now all my HD/PD mags have barrier blind/bonded options in them, and by their nature they all do weigh b/t 50gr.-64gr. depending on which one you go with. This quote from Doc in his 5.56 Duty Loads sticky should shed a bit more light on that question....

" Keep in mind, that with non-fragmenting bullet designs, heavier bullet weights are not necessarily better, especially at closer ranges and from shorter barrels. As long as penetration and upset remain adequate, it is possible to use lighter weight non-fragmenting bullets and still have outstanding terminal performance. With fragmenting designs, a heavier bullet is ideal, as it provides more potential fragments and still allows the central core to have enough mass for adequate penetration. In addition, heavier bullets may have an advantage at longer ranges due to better BC and less wind drift."

[ALCOAR]

Until I gather enough to organize into a dedicated thread, I'll share a few more results from tests I did today....

The setup stays exactly the same for each of these different types of .223/5.56 ammo......25yds/10.5" 5.56 1/7 barrel/ water as medium


5.56 M855 62gr. FMJ

Penetration: 23.5"

Expansion: None

Fragmentation: None

Late upsetting....2 jug, and then turned into a wad cutter tubbling down and to the left through a complete third jug, where it entered it's fourth jug and remained. Thankfully I never have to rely on that shit above.


Pic of penetration....
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06127.jpg

Pic of the bullet's path....
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06132.jpg

Pic of the recovered M855 projectile....
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06138.jpg


Hornady TAP 60gr. Barrier (Nuclear Power plant carry ammo)....

Penetration: 13.5"

Expansion: roughly double the original

Fragmentation: None

Overall while this round has nowhere near the qualities of the first two rounds tested, or is ideal for my HD/PD needs...I think it pretty much did exactly what it what suppose to do, which is to upset very early with heavy expansion ending in quite shallow overall penetration.

Pic of the penetration....
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06143.jpg

Pic of the bullet's path....
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06147.jpg

Pics of recovered 60gr. TAP barrier round....
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06156.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06153.jpg

[Ironman8]

In regards to the TAP Barrier, would you say that this *could* be a good round for HD or a setting such as an apartment where there are no shortage of people around and just on the other side of the wall?

Or would you still use your TSX/Fusion? Which btw, can you load the fusion projectiles? Are they available anywhere?

[Clint]

Those M855 results are eye opening.

From a 16" barrel they do somewhat better, at least breaking in half.

But when launched at the lower velocity from the shorter barrel, they absolutely stink.


Here is another thread on the XM223SP1 (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=73955), which is same/similar to the fusion.

It looks like the projectile still expanded somewhat at 1900 fps, but I'm not sure how much slower it can go.

[jr0xas]

jr0xas....glad I could help out brother, here is a bit of info on just my own personal preferences as I'm certainly no Doc:)

I remember just a cpl. years ago when myself and the majority of other serious AR shooters I knew pretty much held Hornady's TAP 5.56 75gr. T2 round as the king of PD/HD/Duty type ammo. I still do love T2 because of it's outstanding accuracy in my Rock 5R barrels, but today none of my designated HD/PD mags contain T2 or any other heavy OTM round for that matter like MK262 Mod1.

Now all my HD/PD mags have barrier blind/bonded options in them, and by their nature they all do weigh b/t 50gr.-64gr. depending on which one you go with. This quote from Doc in his 5.56 Duty Loads sticky should shed a bit more light on that question....

" Keep in mind, that with non-fragmenting bullet designs, heavier bullet weights are not necessarily better, especially at closer ranges and from shorter barrels. As long as penetration and upset remain adequate, it is possible to use lighter weight non-fragmenting bullets and still have outstanding terminal performance. With fragmenting designs, a heavier bullet is ideal, as it provides more potential fragments and still allows the central core to have enough mass for adequate penetration. In addition, heavier bullets may have an advantage at longer ranges due to better BC and less wind drift."

So much good info in this thread! Again, many thanks TRIDENT!!!

[Pappabear]

Trident, nice work as usual. What happened to our beloved VMAX?

Why didn't it make the cut to be included in the test.

PB

[jwfuhrman]

Damn I love when you make these threads Alex, its like we are actually on a gun forum again, and a good one to boot.

Back to the subject at hand, I know you were experimenting with the hornady Superformance 53gr ammo for awhile. What do you think of ammo like that out of a SBR for HD/PD? I have 60rds of that stuff that I mainly use out of my 16in RECCE/3gun for varmints but if it would make a good HD/PD round, I'll buy more for that purpose.

[duece71]

Great thread. Thank you for posting.

[technician]

I would be interested to know if the performance goes across the Fusion line. They have 7.62x39 and .308 rounds that would be worth investigating.

[KalashniKEV]

They have 7.62x39 and .308 rounds that would be worth investigating.

I was thinking the same thing...

A consistently loaded, quality round with a high performance bullet from even a lowly AK could be formidable.

[ALCOAR]

Thanks guys for the kind words:)

ironman....personally I'm an all or nothing guy in regards to your question. Either I'm gonna get a true barrier blind load, or I'm going with a dramatically reduced penetrating load like a 60gr. TAP vmax load. So I really don't see much use for that Hornady Barrier 60gr. rd.

No sure about reloads for the fusion since I'm not a reloader...hopefully somebody else can chime in on that.

pappabear....count on me busting out both the 55gr. vmax and 53gr. superformance vmax for you. I'm interested to see the results as well.

jw....stay tuned as noted above, I'll get some results asap on the ballastic tip stuff. personally I could be ignorant on my non usage of ballastic tip ammo for pd/hd situations, but I just want to give myself the very best option for ending a fight as fast as possible, and the round that I believe best does that for me is one that can defeat barriers in which I'm likely to encounter when faced with a HD/PD situation using my mrp cqb 10.5".

I do love them for accuracy:)

[ALCOAR]

Sometimes things really surprise me when testing various stuff. Perfect example was me thinking that 2 complete jugs should be sufficient enough of medium in order to stop both the 55gr. TSX and 62gr. fusion rounds @ 300yds. I was very much incorrect, and every round blew through both jugs and out the back making them un-recoverable. I got greedy and wanted to get more individual test setups so I went with four 2 jug setups....should have gone with at least three 3 jug setups. Long story short...both these rounds are still packing some serious punch at 300yds. One early observation from distance testing them with reduced velocity is that I didn't see any of that awesome early upset/destruction of first jugs that I saw with them at 25yds.

Both shoot super flat as well to 300yds which was very cool to see in the bullet trace cam footage that I'm posting below.

Stayed tuned for the "un failed" 300yd testing....(it's a bitch finding water jugs these days)

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06160.jpg

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06162.jpg


SBR bullet trace/300yd ballistic test fail (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VXVxVM5j0s&feature=youtube_gdata)

[doubletap2211]

I don't chime in much on here but I just wanted to say thanks for this post. Very good information. Thanks for all the work put into doing this.

[jstyer]

I too appreciate the hard work. Many thanks!

[g5m]

Thanks for this thread. Some very interesti ng info here.

[ALCOAR]

Glad a few of you gents are finding some of this stuff useful..

I have quite a bit more data and testing results to add from this afternoon. Firstly I continued to test various loads @ 25yds...secondly I made attempt number two at LR ballistic testing these rounds.

Continued 25yd/10.5" MRP CQB 5.56 testing.....

Setup:

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06198.jpg

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06203.jpg

Results: (Pics below accurately depict the locations of the jugs immediately after being shot.)

MK262 Mod 1

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06207.jpg

Fragmentation was a little better than I thought it would be, but nothing special at all. The majority of upset came in second jug, and ultimately the largest fragment recovered was found in the third and final jug penetrated.

Hornady Superformance 53gr. VMAX

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06209.jpg

Fragmentation was certainly better than the MK262 considering the weight difference b/t the two especially, and while this round is a huge paper tiger in terminal ballistics.....it really blows some shit up:cool: Note the location of that first jug that got A-bombed a few yards away. This round performed exactly like I thought it should....incredible disruption/upset in the first jug, and incredibly shallow penetration with only two jugs being consumed.

PRZI 55gr. SPBT

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06218.jpg

For $10.99 a box, this is pretty impressive stuff. This is another round that touches on the central theme here in this thread....."hunting" rounds deserve your consideration when picking a suitable (affordable/available/reliable/etc.) HD/PD round for your 5.56 SBR AR. This round retained 99% of it's mass, and expanded to double it's diameter. It had good early upset in that first jug, but that's about all it had going for it.....it had pretty shallow penetration, and was essentially done with after the second jug even though it did make it into the third.


Federal XM193F

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06216.jpg

Just like M855, the XM193 didn't fail to disappoint. This round totally lost it's shit in the second jug, where it turned into a wadcutter, and then dramatically tumbled upwards and to the right where it left the second jug....grazed the third, and then flew to who knows where. At least the M855 stayed put even though it didn't fragment a smidgen, and started to tumbled heavily late into the third jug.

Clearly the two military rounds...the 5.56 M855 and XM193F massively failed.

Recovered projectiles....
(3/4 rds. tested were recovered / XM193 absent)

(L-R VMAX/SPBT/MK 262)
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06238.jpg

Penetration results.....

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06229.jpg

[ALCOAR]

PART II: LR testing #2 / 350yds Federal 62gr. Fusion


I think you guys should like this video....very violent:cool:

SBR ballistic testing @ 25/350yds... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlYJgFkHmj8&feature=youtube_gdata)

Before:

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06220.jpg

After:

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06225.jpg

Penetration results:
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06231.jpg

Again no recovered projectiles....the angle of trajectory, and the very narrow window that must be hit in order to line up the shot to go through all jugs straightly is clearly f**king my world up. Count on a third try. The footage is still badass I think:)

[g5m]

More interesting info. Also, your linked video is good. Seeing the atmospheric disruption of the bullet's passage to the target is something I always enjoy seeing.

[Pappabear]

Trident, you could make one hell of chart ranking these bullets at 25 and 300 yards. Lotta work but it does tell a piece of information.

I want to test my SMK's just for grins. 69 and 77 grains. They are target bullets, but I am still interested. A 69 grain bullet would toast a coyote whether it opened or not. So I would like to see how they performed.

Nice work as usual.

PB

[Clint]

Sometimes things really surprise me when testing various stuff. Perfect example was me thinking that 2 complete jugs should be sufficient enough of medium in order to stop both the 55gr. TSX and 62gr. fusion rounds @ 300yds. I was very much incorrect, and every round blew through both jugs and out the back making them un-recoverable.

One early observation from distance testing them with reduced velocity is that I didn't see any of that awesome early upset/destruction of first jugs that I saw with them at 25yds.



This actually shouldn't be too surprising.

The impact velocity at 25 yards is above the expansion threshold.

The impact velocity at 300 yards is below the expansion threshold.

Let's do a Ballistic Calc (http://www.biggameinfo.com/index.aspx?page=%2fbalcalc.ascx),

Using some data from this link
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=73955

Assume muzzle velocity of 2250 fps from the 10.5", a BC of .308 and a minimum expansion velocity of ~1900 fps.

At 50 yards we have 2121 fps.

At 300 yards we have 1547 fps.

Even allowing down to 1800 fps to expand, this projectile is out of steam at that range.

Without expansion, deeper penetration, late yaw and inconsistent terminal effects should be expected.


ETA:

Max performance range for the 10.5" works out to be 125-150 yards.

Max performance range for a 16" works out to be 300 yards.

Try the 16" at 300 to confirm.

[the_1iviper]

this has been a great thread with some good info , thanks trident :cool:

[duece71]

Your videos are always entertaining. Slo mo bullet trace was cool at 350yds.

[ALCOAR]

Glad to hear some found the last stuff interesting.

Per poster request / my own curiousity....here are some results that I think are really neat:

.308

165gr. Fusion / 150gr. TTSX


VS.


.223

62gr. Fusion / 55gr. TSX FB


http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06356.jpg

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06365.jpg

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06367.jpg

Pretty damn interesting head to head comparison there, and while one's a 16" 1000yd MWS, and the other is a 10.5" MRP that guards my home/person.....numerous things still I think can be compared apples to apples in broader terms like .308 vs. .223, or Fusion construction abilities/TSX construction abilities in .223 vs. .308, etc.

The dead nuts reliable cutting edge 16" .308 AR is just one helluva lethal and potent pill...and it just makes the .223 16" AR or any other one for that matter look straight anemic, and sickly. Amazing firepower in the L129A1-MWSF/SR25EC-M110C type rifle....enough on that.

[snackgunner]

Awesome thread and info as usual, trident.

By any chance, would you be able to add .300 blackout into the mix of testing results? Maybe the barnes vor-tx 110gr ttsx.

[fallscity1]

Trident,
wow... thanks for all of your research and more importantly sharing!
I'm a newb to this site and you have already answered some of my first questions.

[Taprackngo]

Simply Awesome, thanks for posting and taking the time.

[ALCOAR]

Great to see some of you guys are interested in this stuff...snackgunner, I don't have anything chambered in .300blk or I'd love to test some of that stuff out. Perhaps in the future:)

I believe the following data and testing are my best effort in order to evaluate one of the most critical components when analyzing a potential SD/HD/PD round...which is to test the actual consistency of either the fragmentation or in my case the expansion properties within that particular SD/HD/PD round in question. The point of this is to not just cherry pick one round or two, but use a significant sample size in order to effectively measure how reliable this Fusion round expands when you hold the test medium constant, as well as all other relevant factors associated with this.

While this test shows nothing in regards to penetration or where/when the bullet is primarily upsetting, I think it tests the expansion abilities consistency extremely well.

My setup/testing model was directly inspired by the MacPherson's water test method (http://firearmstactical.com/briefs5.htm), but not copied very closely at all due to the fact that this method is really for estimating handgun hollowpoint penetration.

These were steps I directly used in my model...

"
2) Fire 10 JHP bullets (from same lot of ammunition as in step 1) vertically into center of water-filled container. Pause long enough for air bubbles to clear after each shot. There’s no need to stop to recover each bullet. You can recover the bullets all at once after you’ve shot the last one. (You will get wet doing this, but you can minimize the splash by placing an old bed sheet over the mouth of the water-filled container.)

3) Recover bullets from water-filled container. Using calipers, measure average expanded diameter of each bullet using instructions on page 251 (JHP Bullet Expansion) of MacPherson’s book.

4) Calculate average expanded diameter for all 10 bullets. "

So without further ado....

Huge reservoir in which to shoot vertically down into??....turns out a ladder, and a recycling bin have dual purposes around my place these days;)

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06585-1.jpg

All 10rds at the bottom of the collection reservoir after draining the water....

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06593-1.jpg

Analyzing the 10 round's avg. diameters, retained weight, and overall expansion....

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06606.jpg

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06633.jpg

Final data set for evaluating the Fusion's ability to consistently expand effectively:

Rd 1: .5380"
Rd 2: .5210
Rd 3: .6085
Rd 4: .5660
Rd 5: .6165
Rd 6: .5125
Rd 7: .5530
Rd 8: .5690
Rd 9: .5070
Rd 10: .5590

Low: .5070"
High: .6165"

AVG: .55505"

Additional statistics:

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC06637-1.jpg

[WS6]

Good info! Any desire to test 70gr tsx? It should give optimal expansion out to about 275 yards from a 10.5" sbr, as loaded by ssa.

[ALCOAR]

Thanks, and I would eventually like to test some variety of the 70gr. TSX....it's just a bit difficult to find currently.

[krichbaum]

It's been said many times already, but thanks for doing this and posting it. Great stuff.

[WS6]

Thanks, and I would eventually like to test some variety of the 70gr. TSX....it's just a bit difficult to find currently.

Just buy it from ssa who loads it.

[RGoose]

Trident,
1. Thank you for the detailed analysis. I think I have a new HD round!
2. I envy that you have the area to test out to 300 yards. My local 300 yard range would blow a gasket if I suggested putting anything but paper targets up.

[Pesty0311]

Trident, any chance on testing the SSA 70gr TSX out to 300?

[ALCOAR]

I'd certainly like to, and I have plans to test some whenever I can obtain a little bit.

[Snake Plissken]

My water testing of the 64 gr Gold Dot (same as Fusion) from a 20" barrel at 2996 FPS@~10ft looked about the same however they punched through a 20" long column of water and then through a gallon jug only to exit that and embed a few inches into mud.
http://i.imgur.com/YsaDB.jpg

[BufordTJustice]

Trident, if I mail you a 20rd box of federal t556tnb1 mk318 62gr, would you consider testing that at 25/300? It would be gratis as long as you take pretty pictures. :D

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Epic 4G Touch

[ALCOAR]

Sure, shoot me a PM whenever you get ready and I'll give you my addy.

Should be a very good load to test. Pics and most likely video are always guaranteed in my threads :)

Snake...thanks for contribution of another data point.

[BufordTJustice]

Sure, shoot me a PM whenever you get ready and I'll give you my addy.

Should be a very good load to test. Pics and most likely video are always guaranteed in my threads :)

Snake...thanks for contribution of another data point.

Pm sent.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Epic 4G Touch

[BufordTJustice]

Alright, I just shipped a sealed 20 round box of Federal T556TNB1 (Mk 318) 62gr to Trident for testing. He is kind enough to put it through the battery of tests. Stay tuned. :D

[WS6]

Alright, I just shipped a sealed 20 round box of Federal T556TNB1 (Mk 318) 62gr to Trident for testing. He is kind enough to put it through the battery of tests. Stay tuned. :D

Thanks!
I am very curious to see performance at distance from an SBR.

[BufordTJustice]

Thanks!
I am very curious to see performance at distance from an SBR.

No prob, brother. But thank Trident too......he's doing the real legwork.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Epic 4G Touch

[MrSmitty]

Buford, Trident

Thanks for doing this. I've had some MK318 stocked up for home defense but haven't had the time to test the ballistics of it. I am very interested in these results.

[vicious_cb]

Nice test. I found with my own testing that just pain water jugs tends to over exaggerate the performance of a particular bullet whether it be the expanding or fragmenting kind. If you have the time its better to stuff the jugs with wet newspaper and compact it down. The results won't be as explosive but it will give you better data.

[decodeddiesel]

Really enjoyed reading this thread and watching the videos.

Kudos Trident, well done.

[ALCOAR]

Thanks gents, nice to see the interest:)

Buford did his job and I received the ammo late this afternoon...big thanks for the opportunity as I enjoy doing this stuff.

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07141-1.jpg

I hurried out to the close by range and set up two lines of jugs at 25yds to get that portion out of the way since it might be around a week til I get the 300yd test done.

This stuff penetrates extremely deep....the most I've seen yet by any round through a 10.5".

Both runs were almost identical with all four jugs being penetrated and unfortunately neither of the projectiles were recovered. Only a few flakes of fragmentation were recovered so the rounds stayed intact by in large.

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07138.jpg

I would personally interpret the results as certainly being better than the M193 or XM855, and the obvious vmax stuff...but far behind the fusion and tsx at 25yds.

25yd test video....

T556TNB1 @ 25yds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0jbEvBXX8Q&feature=youtube_gdata)

[WS6]

Thanks gents, nice to see the interest:)

Buford did his job and I received the ammo late this afternoon...big thanks for the opportunity as I enjoy doing this stuff.

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07141-1.jpg

I hurried out to the close by range and set up two lines of jugs at 25yds to get that portion out of the way since it might be around a week til I get the 300yd test done.

This stuff penetrates extremely deep....the most I've seen yet by any round through a 10.5".

Both runs were almost identical with all four jugs being penetrated and unfortunately neither of the projectiles were recovered. Only a few flakes of fragmentation were recovered so the rounds stayed intact by in large.

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07138.jpg

I would personally interpret the results as certainly being better than the M193 or XM855, and the obvious vmax stuff...but far behind the fusion and tsx at 25yds.

25yd test video....

T556TNB1 @ 25yds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0jbEvBXX8Q&feature=youtube_gdata)

Can you make the video un-private?

The failure of integrity method of the SOST round is complete fragmentation of the front 1/2 of the projectile within the first 1" of penetration, extending 7-10" into the target, and the slight radial expansion of the second 1/2 (solid copper) to around 0.27" or so, which then tracks front-forward until stopping.

This is just my observation.

[BufordTJustice]

Can you make the video un-private?

The failure of integrity method of the SOST round is complete fragmentation of the front 1/2 of the projectile within the first 1" of penetration, extending 7-10" into the target, and the slight radial expansion of the second 1/2 (solid copper) to around 0.27" or so, which then tracks front-forward until stopping.

This is just my observation.

That is exactly how I understand the SOST design to work (when it is not bonded and the mk318 is not).

[WS6]

That is exactly how I understand the SOST design to work (when it is not bonded and the mk318 is not).

It has done so on everything I have shot with it, from a 14.5" barrel only out to 25 yards.

This includes:

Cinder blocks
Pine
Water jugs
Phone books


Performance on cinder-blocks was similar to M855, although it tracked truer, NO 5.56 round I have yet tested will reliably penetrate through both sides of a cinder-block with any kind of energy afterward (the only round that did, slightly dimpled the surface of a piece of pine.

[BufordTJustice]

It has done so on everything I have shot with it, from a 14.5" barrel only out to 25 yards.

This includes:

Cinder blocks
Pine
Water jugs
Phone books


Performance on cinder-blocks was similar to M855, although it tracked truer, NO 5.56 round I have yet tested will reliably penetrate through both sides of a cinder-block with any kind of energy afterward (the only round that did, slightly dimpled the surface of a piece of pine.

I've shot pine and water jugs (2 jugs, no recovery) and it has also done the same for me from a 14.5" BCM middy.

I shot the 2 jugs at about 12 yards and got violent frag in the first jug, minimal in the 2nd....with a clean exit about double caliber size and round. This was about a month ago (before I knew this thread existed) so I didn't video or photograph any of it. :rolleyes:

Trident, GREAT job on conducting all this testing. Can't wait to see the video once you make it public.

That Fusion is one bad mother!

[decodeddiesel]

Can you make the video un-private?


I also would like to see it.

[ALCOAR]

Ouch...I'm a real dumbass, my apologies about the video.

I meant for it to be private, but viewable to those in this thread. I had to go out of town, and just now checked the thread.

I will be doing the 300yd stuff within a day or two hopefully.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0jbEvBXX8Q

[ALCOAR]

T556TBN1 @ 5yds......water tank

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07146-1.jpg

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07153-1.jpg

"Shank 1"

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07155.jpg

"Shank 2"

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07157.jpg

"Shank 3"

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07160-1.jpg


** last 15 rounds will be used for 300yd testing

[WS6]

Your results mirror my own. Thank-you for the video, pics, and info. I am especially interested in seeing the recovered slug/fragments from the 300 yard line. Can you put a phone book or something behind the jugs to insure their retrieval "just in case"?

[Clint]

Yep that's all you ever seem to find is the little slug and a bunch of fragments everywhere.

I've shot these at both stacks of periodicals and cement blocks with similar results.

[ALCOAR]

Your results mirror my own. Thank-you for the video, pics, and info. I am especially interested in seeing the recovered slug/fragments from the 300 yard line. Can you put a phone book or something behind the jugs to insure their retrieval "just in case"?

My pleasure, and I appreciate the suggestion...currently thinking upon that very subject a whole lot. I love how distance slows everything down, and really puts everything to the max test, but this particular activity with distance is turning out to be one tricky bitch.

Buford...again thanks for the great contribution to this thread, and I see this stuff as a real viable option unlike the other Mil Spec 5.56 ammo varieties.

Just to note....this stuff certainly didn't frag like that at 25yds, some of that "lead core slurry" was recovered but no jacket fragments were to be found anywhere. That leads me to believe the jackets only frag'd in a few large pieces upon upset and those few fragments went flying with those first two "upset" jugs making them unrecoverable.

[BufordTJustice]

My pleasure, and I appreciate the suggestion...currently thinking upon that very subject a whole lot. I love how distance slows everything down, and really puts everything to the max test, but this particular activity with distance is turning out to be one tricky bitch.

Buford...again thanks for the great contribution to this thread, and I see this stuff as a real viable option unlike the other Mil Spec 5.56 ammo varieties.

Just to note....this stuff certainly didn't frag like that at 25yds, some of that "lead core slurry" was recovered but no jacket fragments were to be found anywhere. That leads me to believe the jackets only frag'd in a few large pieces upon upset and those few fragments went flying with those first two "upset" jugs making them unrecoverable.

I'm happy to supply the test ammo. Thank you again, Trident, for doing all the leg work.

The videos confirmed what DocGKR has said about the method of fragmentation. The front of the projectile will fragment radially upon entering the first jug, with the rear 'shank' remaining stabilized enough to not tumble as it penetrates subsequent jugs. This seems to indicate that there will be predictable penetration from the shank, both in diameter and direction.

Can't wait to see the 300 yard test.

[ALCOAR]

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07173-1.jpg

Rarely do I get everything perfect in prep....and even more rare do I get results that are perfect. So with that said, the following sub evaluation is easily the most informative and unique testing I've done yet in this thread.

The results truly blew me away....could never have predicted all these stars perfectly aligning for these two 325yd tests.

I finally took into consideration my FFP's elevation in relation to my target's elevation...tweaked that some, and ended up on a glide slope that would make Houston proud:cool:

Setup before:

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07171-1.jpg

Setup after:

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07187-1.jpg

First observation: the MRP chassis+Rock 10.5" shoots this ammo flat out awesomely for what it is at 300+yds. While some of this has to do with NF's perfect tracking, the following pic should illustrate just how lethally accurate this T556NB1 is in terms of real world accuracy.


3 shots to get on a 3" dot @ 300yds +.... (certainly better than the numerous horrible accuracy results I've seen on this ammo, maybe it's the LOT #, or maybe it's the Karl+Rock combo...either way this ammo through a 10.5" SBR is beyond capable of making well placed hits @ distance which was great to see as a side bonus from today's testing.

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07185.jpg

RESULTS:

Run # 1:

Again 4 jugs penetrated...however the non-fragmented projectile only pierced the 4th jug's back wall thereby remaining inside the jug and making my DAMN DAY:p

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07191-1.jpg

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07200-1.jpg


Run # 2: Exact opposite result!!!

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07197-1.jpg

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07198-1.jpg

*** Incredibly 3 out of 4 jugs had fragmentation inside of them with this one very neat piece of jacket in the 3rd jug....

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07205-1.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07208-1.jpg

Recovered projectiles.......2/2

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC07203-1.jpg

Finally the Footage:

T556TNB1 @ 325yds.....Ballistic test success (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtmQCsRudVI&feature=youtube_gdata)







*** that concludes my testing of the MK318 Mod0 through SBRs, couldn't ask for much more personally...and one more time, big thanks to Buford:)

[WS6]

Thanks! Looks like you are right on the cusp of its envelope. Restrict shots to 250 yards or less, or get a slight longer barrel, and it looks killer!

[swedeboy]

Nice test

[TylerD]

So out of a 16 inch barrel, would you choose the mk318 sost or rounds like the federal tbbc for home defense? Is it safe to say they are on par with one another?

[ALCOAR]

Just my 2cents worth, but I personally wouldn't put the MK318 in the class of the Fed 62gr. TBBC in terms of a Duty/PD/HD round.

DocGKR's thread on 5.56mm Duty Loads (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881) could better answer your question I'm sure...

"For LE Patrol use, where there is a high incidence of potential engagements around or involving vehicles, ammunition that is able to effectively penetrate intermediate barriers, particularly vehicle glass is critical. The best LE 5.56 mm/.223 loads for intermediate barrier penetration using 1/9 and faster twist barrels are the 5.56 mm Federal 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3) and 5.56 mm Winchester 64 gr solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B) developed for the FBI, along with the outstanding new Black Hills 5.56 mm 50 gr TSX loading. Note that these are all true 5.56 mm loads that require a real milspec 5.56 mm chamber, not a SAAMI .223 chamber--be sure to check with an appropriate gauge or reamer. Most other acceptable LE barrier blind loadings are at .223 pressures, including the .223 55 & 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical loads (LE223T1 & LE223T3), along with loads using Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP, Remington 62 gr Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded JSP (PRC223R4), .223 Federal 55 gr TSX (T223S), and the .223 Speer 55 & 64 gr Gold Dot JSP's (and identically constructed Federal 62 gr Fusion JSP and Federal XM223SP1 62gr Bonded JSP). The Swift 75 gr Scirocco bonded PT is also good choice, but usually requires a 1/7 twist. Note that the Barnes all copper TSX bullets are great projectiles and offer good penetration through barriers, however, when first hitting a laminated automobile windshield intermediate barrier, most TSX bullets exhibit less expansion than bonded JSP’s, as the Barnes jacket either collapses at the nose, the jacket "petals" fold back against the core, or the "petals" are torn off; this results in a caliber size projectile configured a lot like a full wadcutter, leading to deep penetration. If running 1/12 twist barrels, stick with the BH 50 gr TSX, Fed 55 gr TBBC, Speer 55 gr Gold Dot, or Fed 55 gr TSX. NONE of the fragmenting 5.56 mm OTM bullets, even the heavy 75 - 100 gr loads, offer acceptable performance through automobile windshield glass. Contrary to what many believe, M193 & M855 FMJ are not very good against glass; the best military 5.56 mm load against glass is 52 gr M995 AP, followed by the 62 gr Mk318 Mod0 OTM and 70 gr Optimal "brown tip" OTM."

[TylerD]

Just my 2cents worth, but I personally wouldn't put the MK318 in the class of the Fed 62gr. TBBC in terms of a Duty/PD/HD round.

DocGKR's thread on 5.56mm Duty Loads (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881) could better answer your question I'm sure...

"For LE Patrol use, where there is a high incidence of potential engagements around or involving vehicles, ammunition that is able to effectively penetrate intermediate barriers, particularly vehicle glass is critical. The best LE 5.56 mm/.223 loads for intermediate barrier penetration using 1/9 and faster twist barrels are the 5.56 mm Federal 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3) and 5.56 mm Winchester 64 gr solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B) developed for the FBI, along with the outstanding new Black Hills 5.56 mm 50 gr TSX loading. Note that these are all true 5.56 mm loads that require a real milspec 5.56 mm chamber, not a SAAMI .223 chamber--be sure to check with an appropriate gauge or reamer. Most other acceptable LE barrier blind loadings are at .223 pressures, including the .223 55 & 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical loads (LE223T1 & LE223T3), along with loads using Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP, Remington 62 gr Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded JSP (PRC223R4), .223 Federal 55 gr TSX (T223S), and the .223 Speer 55 & 64 gr Gold Dot JSP's (and identically constructed Federal 62 gr Fusion JSP and Federal XM223SP1 62gr Bonded JSP). The Swift 75 gr Scirocco bonded PT is also good choice, but usually requires a 1/7 twist. Note that the Barnes all copper TSX bullets are great projectiles and offer good penetration through barriers, however, when first hitting a laminated automobile windshield intermediate barrier, most TSX bullets exhibit less expansion than bonded JSP’s, as the Barnes jacket either collapses at the nose, the jacket "petals" fold back against the core, or the "petals" are torn off; this results in a caliber size projectile configured a lot like a full wadcutter, leading to deep penetration. If running 1/12 twist barrels, stick with the BH 50 gr TSX, Fed 55 gr TBBC, Speer 55 gr Gold Dot, or Fed 55 gr TSX. NONE of the fragmenting 5.56 mm OTM bullets, even the heavy 75 - 100 gr loads, offer acceptable performance through automobile windshield glass. Contrary to what many believe, M193 & M855 FMJ are not very good against glass; the best military 5.56 mm load against glass is 52 gr M995 AP, followed by the 62 gr Mk318 Mod0 OTM and 70 gr Optimal "brown tip" OTM."

Thanks for the heads up. I am having a hard time deciding what to use at the range vs. hat to use for SD/HD. Basically I'm trying to find a practice round that will have a similar trajectory as my HD round...... so many options!

[Ironman8]

Trident,

This weekend I am planning to do some ballistic testing of a few rounds that people generally consider for home defense (including: 75gr. TAP T2, 64gr. TBBC, 55gr TSX, 62gr. Fusion and I'm going to add in some BH 62gr. RRLP just for the heck of it).

I'll be constructing a "wall" to shoot through (basicaly just two sheets of sheetrock about 4-6" apart [this distance will be standardized between all tests performed], like you would find in the walls of your house) and then 1gal jugs of water behind the "wall" to test the ballistics of the round after passthrough of the "wall" (simulating the lethality of the round in a HD setting if you were to miss the BG and shoot through a wall...or if you had to shoot through a wall to hit the bad guy)

I have a couple of questions for you though since you've done this a few times ;)

In your experience, how many jugs are needed for each ballistic test? It seems like the round always stops in the 4th 1gal. jug in the line, but would adding a 5th be a better idea?

Also, I was planning on shooting the rounds from a distance of 7yds, but aren't most ballistic tests run at 10yds? May not make much of a difference, but I want to standardize as much as possible.

If you want, add any other commentary or thoughts on how to make this a better test.

[Ironman8]

Thanks for the heads up. I am having a hard time deciding what to use at the range vs. hat to use for SD/HD. Basically I'm trying to find a practice round that will have a similar trajectory as my HD round...... so many options!

As long as you are shooting within 100yds in non-precision training, you won't see much difference between cheap training ammo and your go-to HD round of choice.

At closer distances (CQB distances out to 25yds)...which is realistically going to account for about 90% of your training time, the difference will be about equal to 0...even if you were to use a heavier round for HD and a lighter 55gr round for training ;)

Just zero with your SD/HD round, understand the holds that are associated with that round at various distances, and train as much as possible with your cheap training ammo.

[ALCOAR]

I'd be very interested to see those results. :)

10yds sounds better to me.

Four jugs should be sufficient for all but one or two rounds I would think...the MK318 seems to be one of those rounds. I've never seen any varmint round go to even three jugs.

I think every round you listed except the TAP T2 (3jugs) will go 4 jugs. Then again that might just be the Holiday Inn in me talking again:D

[Ironman8]

I'd be very interested to see those results. :)

10yds sounds better to me.

Four jugs should be sufficient for all but one or two rounds I would think...the MK318 seems to be one of those rounds. I've never seen any varmint round go to even three jugs.

I think every round you listed except the TAP T2 (3jugs) will go 4 jugs. Then again that might just be the Holiday Inn in me talking again:D

Haha nah I'll go with "educated guess" over "Holiday Inn" ;)

10yds it is!

I think I'll make a box out of some cheap particle board to place the jugs in, that way they'll remain lined up, and if the projectile exits the 4th jug, it will have a back wall there to stop it (hopefully).

I wish I had my SBR out of jail by now for this test, but a 14.5" barrel will just have to do for now...

[Sierra276]

Trident.

Could you elaborate a little on your comment, that you wouldn't put the Mk318 in the same class as the 62grTBBC...?
Just want to get a little more of your observations on the two rounds... Similarities / Differences, and usefullness against hard targets... Glass, sheetmetal... The usuall barriers the F.B.I. throws into their protocol testing...

Thanks...

[vicious_cb]

Interesting results with the long range mk318 testing. According to your ballistics program, what would you say the velocity of that mk318 projectile was at 350 yards?

[Ironman8]

Here's the results of my testing that I did a few weeks ago. Finally got it posted up.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1389083&posted=1#post1389083

Wish I had had some TSX to try, but I didn't get my reloading gear together in time.

Maybe another time ;)

[ALCOAR]

Thank you Ironman, great info in that thread of yours:)


Sheetrock/wall test...Fusion 62gr.....25yds....MRP CQB 10.5"

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC08358-1.jpg

For comparative purposes(see first post in the OP...fusion into bare jugs @ 25yds), hopefully you'll note that the fusion remained fully intact after passing through the barrier, where it then exhibited excellent early upset in the first and second jugs, almost fully expanding by the time it reached the third jug.........whereby it began to rapidly yaw upwards and to the right penetrating another half jug completely and landing right outside of it.

Short and simple...the wall made about 10% of the bullet not fully expand...thus making it actually drive deeper, and yawing as it ended it's travel.

This was at least for myself very reassuring to see, and exactly how I had expected this to fusion to perform when encountering a light barrier such as a wall. Sample of one...fwiw.

Before:

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC08332-1.jpg

After:

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC08337-1.jpg

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC08340-1.jpg

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC08367-1.jpg

[DiscipulusArmorum]

Wow, can't believe I missed this until now. Great info.

Do you still have the interest/capability to test ammo sent to you? I have a small amount of XM556FBIT3 (the "reclassified" stuff sold by SGA and others) that I'm curious about.

[Ironman8]

Wow, can't believe I missed this until now. Great info.

Do you still have the interest/capability to test ammo sent to you? I have a small amount of XM556FBIT3 (the "reclassified" stuff sold by SGA and others) that I'm curious about.

See the link in my post above (#78) ;)

[Blayglock]

Thanks for the write up. I would be interested to see a test with V-Max as well.

[ALCOAR]

DiscipulusArmorum...I'll prob. be picking some of that up in the near future along with a few other harder to come by loads. I appreciate the offer :)

This next evaluation really brings my main premise here in this thread full circle. Here we have the brand new Winchester PDX1 .223 Defender 60gr. Split core Hollow point loading. Theoretically one would think that this would be the ideal pick for HD/PD, regardless if it's in a 10.5" SBR, or a 14.5/16" one. M4C's audience obviously knows this to be a foolish notion, and it becomes even more foolish when you consider the amount of velocity lost when using SBRs.

The 60gr. Split core bullet design is two fold:

1.) Front Core: Provides quick impact shock by way of fragmentation.

2.) Rear Core: Bonded to the jacket to in theory assure maximum retained weight in order to generate critical penetration (FBI standard requires 12" min. which this stuff never meets even in Winchester's own testing).

In short imo.....This round tries to yield the best of both worlds, yet fails to deliver on any real critical aspect to wound ballistics, especially in the context of SBRs in HD/PD use.

Besides the Vmax testing earlier, this round easily had the least amount of penetration out of the total amount already tested in this thread.

It yielded explosive fragmentation upon immediately entering into the first jug, where by the Rear Core portion continued to travel in a perfectly straight wound track into the second jug where ultimately the small bonded Rear Core portion / bonded jacket pedal rested.

Was it neat to see a mini VMAX and a mini Fusion combined in one projectile that did actually work by yielding two different types of wounding mechanisms (both fragmentation, and expansion)? Absolutely. In terms of design, it's a downright cool bullet.

Would I ever use this in my HD/PD rifles, SBR or not? Not a chance in hell! This round into bare flesh will still have questionable penetration effects, and if it encounters any kind of barrier...forget about it.

Same setup here as the usual for the thread...MRP CQB 10.5" / 25yds / Winc. PDX1 .223 60gr. Split Core Hollow Point

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC08792-1.jpg

First jug fragmentation from the Front core portion:

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC08796-1.jpg

Rear core portion found in second jug. This is the bonded portion, and it expanded roughly 1.5x in diameter.

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC08800-1.jpg

Total effects from both jugs that were penetrated:

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC08805.jpg

[davidjinks]

Trident,

Maybe I missed it in the text someplace; what was the total penetration of the Win PDX?

Not sure if anyone has seen it, but Winchester has another .223 loading out there. It's a 64 grain Razorback lead free round. Don't have any other information other than that. Does anyone have experience with this particular round?

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k299/davidjinks/F6E1DFC7-C810-41DC-951C-7EB6D3A05114-279-000000B731A260D6.jpg

[markm]

[
Would I ever use this in my HD/PD rifles, SBR or not? Not a chance in hell!

No KIDDING! That bullet nearly vaporized! :eek:

[ALCOAR]

David...the total penetration was roughly 1 1/2 jugs, however only the small bonded rear core made it into the second jug.


MRP CQB 10.5" / 25yds / Federal Premium Vital Shok .223 60gr. Nosler Partition

This round had devastating early upset upon entry into the first jug/second jug, whereby the fully expanded and intact projectile penetrated another 1 1/2 jugs making it's total penetration 3 1/2 jugs. The recovered projectile remained 99% + intact and had fully expanded to roughly double it's org. size. The small lead core was separated from the expanded jacket/shank upon recovery. The wound track was perfectly straight almost on this round as well.

This round just like the Fusion 62gr., and the VOR-TX 55gr. really packs some serious punch....and thus provides another perfect example of getting the most out of your 5.56 SBR AR with pricey .223 hunting ammo

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC08905-1.jpg

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC08914-1.jpg

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC08915-1.jpg

[Magic_Salad0892]

That looks pretty good, I think.

Thanks for posting this, TRIDENT.

[Sixgun_Symphony]

great thread, cant believe I missed the last few tests/posts.

Hope to see more!

[ALCOAR]

" The Paper Tiger challenge/evaluation..."



http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/e1d7c22e-e362-404d-aa97-d9d1daf4cc31_zps0b8d199c.jpg

The Forward...

What is a Paper Tiger one might ask.....?

It's a ballistic tipped 40-60gr. projectile made specifically for use on varmints. All the Vmax, Accu-tip, Blitz king type rounds fall squarely into the category of a Paper Tiger.

Important things to note about these types of projectile designs...

1. Most importantly, they are designed to be very lightly constructed....which directly correlates to the next two aspects.

2. Designed to yield explosive results almost immediately upon entering a target.

3. Have notoriously shallow penetration depths, and usually do almost all of their damage within the first 6-8" when entering a target. This is clearly well short of the 12" min. penetration amount for a PD/Duty/HD type loading.

On a human sized threat.....these rounds become the quintessential Paper Tiger. Personally speaking, there is no reason to ever use these type loadings in a rifle that serves serious purposes.

A Sticky by DocGKR.....should be read by those who use a vmax type loading for serious usage based on mostly an unfounded fear of over penetration problems:

The Presumptive Hazards of Over-Penetration (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=56486)

____________________________________________________


The actual evaluation...

All four entries into the Paper Tiger challenge were recorded in the exact same manner, and the only variable in this evaluation comes from the four different ammo types used.

This evaluation is testing to see the unique/different fragmentation effects yielded from Vmax type bullets fired from a 10.5" SBR. Everything else is held constant, and no other valuable info can be found due to limiting the test to only one variable.


The procedure for testing each is as follows....

Shot distance from muzzle to the top of the bullet collection tank was 5yds....rounds were fired from an elevated position straight into the bullet tank.

The bullet tank/collection reservoir must be completely drained after each ammo type, so that all the fragments can be collected, and separated. Then the tank is completely refilled and process is repeated.

It wastes quite a bit of water to do this...60gal + each go round, and for just 4 different individual tests it took an hour or two.

The results....

(From L - R) Hornady 55gr. Vmax, Hornady 55gr. Zmax, American Eagle/AR 223 50gr. Tipped Varmint, Hornady Superformance 53gr. Vmax

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/6608832e-8d1e-4a3b-9c82-ed26cae1b593_zps7a50470d.jpg

Up close shots...

Hornady 55gr. Vmax

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/1f0b1b02-35bd-49d5-a6e7-1bad61b7483c_zps70ae81b1.jpg

Hornady 55gr. Zmax

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/931437b5-3a69-449e-9572-e2585c80b128_zps79f1da4b.jpg

AE 50gr. Tipped Varmint

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/f0e64f60-5514-42a9-92b8-0dfc86bee320_zps8c8156be.jpg

Hornady SF 53gr. Vmax

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/c8a51bee-5d29-4bd8-9bac-33fb68d7ee78_zpse87ea2f1.jpg

[Sixgun_Symphony]

Your tests, photos and descriptions are great.

[JCompton]

Thank you for taking the time to perform all these tests and post the results! I know I will be changing my HD/PD round after reading this. I can't believe I didn't see this sooner! Thanks!!!

[Fidalgoman]

I don't remember if it was on this forum but somebody from Texas who hunts dear as pest tested a number of .223 ammo types over a three year period. It sounded like he killed hundreds of deer in that time. He said the most effective were the TSX, Fusion and Gold Dot. His favorite was the TSX but said the others worked as well. The effects were amazing as a hunting round and I can't help but think it would work for tactical as well.

[Shorts]

Trident, this thread is very much appreciated. I'm beginning research to push an SBR for field purposes and part of that research is considering the effectiveness of rounds. I intend to use it on hogs, coyotes, possibly small deer. But I had to be sure the SBR would do the job my carbine does. Also to understand it's limitations. I can consider all aspects thoroughly.

Thank you for beautiful work on this thread.

Tagging in.

[XD40Colorado]

Yeah because water jugs closely mimic the density of skin and muscle :rolleyes:

See a REAL test here: https://youtu.be/Msci2ciZ4yo

It's actually a pretty decent round.

And why would you use an SBR for hunting? Why rob yourself of velocity and effectiveness?

[daddyusmaximus]

I keep the 62 gr TSX in my HD SBR, and in the mags in my chest rig. I'm pretty confident it will do the job if needed. Most of my stash, however, is 55 gr FMJ (XM193) just because ammo is so expensive. I have some of the Hornady 75 gr TAP everybody loves, but it only shoots well out of one rifle at a distance. (my 16" 1/8 barreled gun) At least it's close enough to work out of the SBR at defensive ranges.

[MegademiC]

Yeah because water jugs closely mimic the density of skin and muscle :rolleyes:

See a REAL test here: https://youtu.be/Msci2ciZ4yo

It's actually a pretty decent round.

And why would you use an SBR for hunting? Why rob yourself of velocity and effectiveness?

Water is cheap and gives you a loose idea. That was also over 3 years ago.

[WS6]

Water is cheap and gives you a loose idea. That was also over 3 years ago.
Water also correlates with a proven ratio to penetration in flesh/gel.

[ozarkpugs]

Since Barns vor- Tex are mentioned maybe you can answer something about them for me, i purchased 2 boxes from bass Pro this week I haven't had time to shoot them yet put on inspection my first impression was the bullets are corroded and need a little polishing then I noticed 12 out of the 20 cases are dented on or near the shoulder . Does the cases are Barnes .Are they reloaded or something or are the cases just abused

Sent from my XT1093 using Tapatalk

[ALCOAR]

Since Barns vor- Tex are mentioned maybe you can answer something about them for me, i purchased 2 boxes from bass Pro this week I haven't had time to shoot them yet put on inspection my first impression was the bullets are corroded and need a little polishing then I noticed 12 out of the 20 cases are dented on or near the shoulder . Does the cases are Barnes .Are they reloaded or something or are the cases just abused

Sent from my XT1093 using Tapatalk

Based on my experience with 15-20 boxes of this stuff, it's premium factory stuff that merits it's higher price tag based on it's terminal and reliability performance, as well as it's overall appearance out of the box.

I just snapped the pics below of a box mine that is indicative of all that I've seen with regards to this type of ammo.

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982073/DSC09641_zpspqdexdu2.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982073/DSC09641_zpspqdexdu2.jpg.html)

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982071/781d9af1-20ce-4285-801b-93f1b7298e83_zpszyinzzuq.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982071/781d9af1-20ce-4285-801b-93f1b7298e83_zpszyinzzuq.jpg.html)

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982074/a56149bc-ffad-4b67-a08c-6ba007aa5e3c_zpstxythkty.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982074/a56149bc-ffad-4b67-a08c-6ba007aa5e3c_zpstxythkty.jpg.html)

[ozarkpugs]

Good to know ,I'll definitely open boxes and inspect before buying next time because mine look like old ammo left in floor board of a pickup . There was a Remington rep . there when I purchased it and he guaranteed I would love it and mentioned it had a $500 mail in rebate , I wish I'd opened and inspected them while talking to him he would have pulled Them I can't seem to post pictures here but the boxes are pristine .If they are accurate and terminal ballistics matches partition I don't mind polishing a little .Dents look like ejection dents but rim looks new



Sent from my XT1093 using Tapatalk

[WS6]

Good to know ,I'll definitely open boxes and inspect before buying next time because mine look like old ammo left in floor board of a pickup . There was a Remington rep . there when I purchased it and he guaranteed I would love it and mentioned it had a $500 mail in rebate , I wish I'd opened and inspected them while talking to him he would have pulled Them I can't seem to post pictures here but the boxes are pristine .If they are accurate and terminal ballistics matches partition I don't mind polishing a little .Dents look like ejection dents but rim looks new



Sent from my XT1093 using Tapatalk
So you bought a $21 box of ammo with a $500 rebate and you care about what the brass looks like?

*confusion*

[ozarkpugs]

No I bought a $27 box before the rep saw me with them and informed me of the rebate and I believe you misread my question .The bullets are corroded with what looks like black rust and cases have dents as if damaged being ejected .I don't mind cleaning up the bullets and sure the dents will not effect performance I know the bullets metal is corrosive I was inquiring to see if it was new brass or reloads ( like maybe they shot some to test and reloaded ) I was not complaining but now that you mentioned it it would seem as if Remington rep is going to brag on ammo in a store it shouldn't look like low quality reloads .I will contact Barnes with the question and report back

Sent from my XT1093 using Tapatalk

[WS6]

No I bought a $27 box before the rep saw me with them and informed me of the rebate and I believe you misread my question .The bullets are corroded with what looks like black rust and cases have dents as if damaged being ejected .I don't mind cleaning up the bullets and sure the dents will not effect performance I know the bullets metal is corrosive I was inquiring to see if it was new brass or reloads ( like maybe they shot some to test and reloaded ) I was not complaining but now that you mentioned it it would seem as if Remington rep is going to brag on ammo in a store it shouldn't look like low quality reloads .I will contact Barnes with the question and report back

Sent from my XT1093 using Tapatalk

$500-$27 still = a VERY tidy profit!


That said, I'm sorry for picking on you for your typo. Yes, I'd ask for an exchange or refund. You bought new ammo. You did not get what you bought, IMO.

[ozarkpugs]

Big old fingers don't always hit ..... or hits it at right time

Sent from my XT1093 using Tapatalk

[ozarkpugs]

Trident 82 just got off phone with Barnes (very professional and honest)
He said when Remington took over Remington loaded Barnes bullets in Remington brass with Barnes stamped on it ,he said the brass is dropped down a tube 2 stories tall and they have had lots of complaints about dents and quality control since Remington started manufacturing their ammo and Barnes would soon be back loading the ammo themselves again and the quality would return to what it was in the past .My ammo lot # starts with a R he said he didn't know how to tell by the # if it was quality Barnes or Remington so advised me to open box and look at ammo before buying and I could definitely tell that way .He is sending me 2 new boxes of Barnes manufactured Bullets .It's like Remington screws up everything they touch lately.





Sent from my XT1093 using Tapatalk

[ALCOAR]

Really interesting info.....that's a shame that Barnes let Remington touch their name branded ammo.

Thanks for the update.

[ozarkpugs]

Agree ,he said it was going back to them making their own .I don't know how to post pictures on here or I would . Anxious to get new "real " Barnes and compare shooting .

Sent from my XT1093 using Tapatalk

[ALCOAR]

10.5" VS 18" Water tank test

All things held constant except barrel length, and the obvious three different types of ammo being tested.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982100/4ecf742e-825c-4dcd-8346-a33eaab5740c_zps3nezii5v.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982100/4ecf742e-825c-4dcd-8346-a33eaab5740c_zps3nezii5v.jpg.html)


http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982101/e3fdd915-4060-4e35-b809-757884d827e6_zpstqknpnz9.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982101/e3fdd915-4060-4e35-b809-757884d827e6_zpstqknpnz9.jpg.html)




60gr. Nosler Partition
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982103/953f1ad1-e1bd-4db0-8139-120b912e693d_zpsm9xqsncj.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982103/953f1ad1-e1bd-4db0-8139-120b912e693d_zpsm9xqsncj.jpg.html)

62gr. Fusion
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982102/9e0db9b0-736f-4564-8ef6-b9049c0a57a6_zpsonmgrsdn.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982102/9e0db9b0-736f-4564-8ef6-b9049c0a57a6_zpsonmgrsdn.jpg.html)

55gr. TSX
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982104/ed1af776-d822-417b-a33d-e429c2254520_zpsfuhe8xwr.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982104/ed1af776-d822-417b-a33d-e429c2254520_zpsfuhe8xwr.jpg.html)

[BufordTJustice]

10.5" VS 18" Water tank test

All things held constant except barrel length, and the obvious three different types of ammo being tested.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982100/4ecf742e-825c-4dcd-8346-a33eaab5740c_zps3nezii5v.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982100/4ecf742e-825c-4dcd-8346-a33eaab5740c_zps3nezii5v.jpg.html)


http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982101/e3fdd915-4060-4e35-b809-757884d827e6_zpstqknpnz9.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982101/e3fdd915-4060-4e35-b809-757884d827e6_zpstqknpnz9.jpg.html)




60gr. Nosler Partition
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982103/953f1ad1-e1bd-4db0-8139-120b912e693d_zpsm9xqsncj.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982103/953f1ad1-e1bd-4db0-8139-120b912e693d_zpsm9xqsncj.jpg.html)

62gr. Fusion
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982102/9e0db9b0-736f-4564-8ef6-b9049c0a57a6_zpsonmgrsdn.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982102/9e0db9b0-736f-4564-8ef6-b9049c0a57a6_zpsonmgrsdn.jpg.html)

55gr. TSX
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/trident1982104/ed1af776-d822-417b-a33d-e429c2254520_zpsfuhe8xwr.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/trident1982104/ed1af776-d822-417b-a33d-e429c2254520_zpsfuhe8xwr.jpg.html)

Outstanding post, Trident. :)

[ALCOAR]

Thanks brother :)

[Pappabear]

Good info, great pics showing actual results. Nice work trident. I don't know what that fusion cost, but I shot it in bigger guns with pretty good accuracy at reasonable prices. Never shot Barnes anything but it mushroomed very nice. That Nosler Partition is a good stout bullet for hunting.

Great post.
PB

[ozarkpugs]

Neck injury dictates low recoil , over the years have taught several kids to hunt using .223 60 grain nosler partition and never had to track over 100 yards and never recovered a bullet (40- 120 yard shots) plan is to test fusion ,barns and nosler and shoot the one that is most accurate in out of my 20 " bull AR .

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[MegademiC]

Good info, great pics showing actual results. Nice work trident. I don't know what that fusion cost, but I shot it in bigger guns with pretty good accuracy at reasonable prices. Never shot Barnes anything but it mushroomed very nice. That Nosler Partition is a good stout bullet for hunting.

Great post.
PB

The 223 fusion can be found for 10-12 bucks a box. It shoots right around 2 moa for me iirc, maybe less. 10 shot groups.

[Feline]

Is the 62 gr. Fusion still the same round as during the 2012 tests, and who has the best price?