View Full Version : 300 Blk at 200 Yards II
Well it continues. Been waiting for some decent weather- wind been blowing a steady 40 plus for the last three days. :rolleyes: So I got out today and shot 2 targets one with the 125 gr Speer TNT's and 150 gr Lee Cast. I've come to the conclusion that shooting 10 shot strings is pointless as I'm getting heat induced flyers- noticed this after comparing the targets and shots 7-10 always out side the main grouping. :mad: So from now on it will be 5 shot groups.:D
PS the Dot on target is 3" circle.
Suwannee Tim
05-19-12, 20:09
That is one very reliable way to get smaller groups, fire fewer shots.
Suwannee Tim
Yep one sure way to remove the barrel heating problem flyers! If I was shooting competitions where shooting groups of ten mattered I'd worry about it! Don't know of any deer that will stand still for 10 shot groups -do you?:rolleyes:
Dan Goodwin
05-20-12, 09:16
If you bust the spine with the first shot it would stabilize them...
Seriously, I use three-shot groups for meat guns.
Suwannee Tim
05-20-12, 14:08
I have never understood the poor accuracy excuse "good enough for hunting" or the other forms it takes. Why don't you try one shot groups Gunnut? That's the most reliable way to get small groups. I don't know why I am still posting on this topic. Great groups Gunnut. Really great groups. Suwannee Tim, over and out.
Suwannee Tim
Ah come on! You really think you have to shoot ten all the time? Like I said unless your shooting for score why does it matter. For real though I am wondering why this particular rifle does this. I could see it if this was a normal AR setup -but this is a free floated barrel. Any other set up I'd be looking for contact points to remove. It is a Hammer forged barrel as well. Not quite a HB profile -medium contour.:confused:
SomeOtherGuy
05-21-12, 11:48
10-shot groups are definitely the standard and provide the best basis for comparison.
Using 200 yard groups you are making wind a much greater factor in the results than it would be at shorter distances, especially considering the relatively moderate velocity of this cartridge. If it were me I would be working toward accuracy of your loads and barrel at 50 and 100 yards, and only after getting really good groups at 100 would I start seeing what I could do at 200.
Dude, you are not seeing or correctly identifying heat induced POI shift after 10 rounds of slow fire. Judging by the groups you've been posting, your shooter input margin of error is far larger than the extremely minor shift that you could theoretically see after 10 rounds.
yes please post up some 100 yard groups.
I'm going to suggest that there is something wrong. My rifle shoots much better than that. I've stated earlier it hold's to a respectable 1.5"-1.75" groups at 100. Have you fired any factory loads?
shoot different factory loads and see which is best and then start working a load up from the best
Are your handloads shooting better than factory? I'm gonna assume your shooting from a bench because your working up loads. I don't want to sound like a dick, but if that was the best I could shoot at 100 yards I would assume that my scope wasn't tightened down. loose mounts or something. You do see that that is a terrible display of shooting at 100 yards right? I don't care if it's only for hunting. I wouldn't take that rifle into the woods with me.
I just realized I was talking to two different nuts.:rolleyes:
Maybe I missed it, but what kind of optics are you running?
Hehuhates
Well I don't lock the gun down and pull the trigger. I actually shoot the rifle. That 100 yard target was shot off bags. The 200 yard targets were shot off bags prone in the bed of my truck. :rolleyes: So let see some of your groups. And not with the rifle bolted down. Just shoot off of bags. :D
I have never "locked" a rifle down. From the bench to me means off bags and then only the forend. I'll also shoot off my bipod from the bench. I can still get pretty tight groups with all of my rifles.
I'm not trying to be over critical with you, sorry if I sounded like a prick.
I just went back and looked at your 100 yard group. I honestly couldn't adjust my sights with a group like that.
Hehuhates
Why would I adjust the sites on the 100 yard target? That is adjusted for the height needed for 200 yard PB. The slight movement right on the group was wind drift and the two obvious flyers left - were either me or the heat of the barrel. :rolleyes: You obviously don't see the pattern I've been talking about - notice a nice cluster of 6 shots then shots 7-10 are outside the normal. Compare this with the 200 yard groups and it shows there as well.:confused:
As for the loads: Speer 150 gr BT's - weights are very consistant at 150 gr +/- .2 , powder charge wt twice, case consistant trim to 1.360", case wt within +/- 1 gr. Cast bullets Lee 150gr cast wt 160 gr +/- .5gr
As for factory rounds ,only shot the Atlanta Arms pink tip 125gr . They were alright- nothing great as far as accuracy- chronied them and they had high ES/SD. That explained the so so accuracy.
QuietShootr
05-22-12, 14:11
Is that an 870 or an 1100?
I see a decent 4 shot group with 6 flyers. At a 100 yards I wouldn't be so quick to blame the wind unless you were shooting in some gale force winds. As the said previously, check, double check, and re-check your mount and make sure it isn't loose. I'm by no means a sniper but I could see that group shrinking by at least 30% from a bench.
J_Dub_503
Ah but it does effect the 300 Blk quite alot. If you look at the 200 yard target the 125 TNT were shot with a dead center hold- wind was 5-10 MPH - those run at 2280 fps. The cast load target I adjusted my hold to center left 5". Group pretty much centered but low - they run at 1915 fps:D Now with the Speer 150 gr BT's I don't see quite as much drift cause of the BT design and .432 BC.
Suwannee Tim
05-22-12, 18:42
Is that an 870 or an 1100?
I beat you to it Quiet.
I would say it's a pretty tight pattern. Between modified and full is my best guess.
But that was in the other (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=104800) thread discussing these remarkably unremarkable groups.
Suwannee Tim
Yea and I'm still awaiting your absolutely perfect cloverleafs(10 shots) at 100 yards or your sub MOA at 200? :sarcastic: Or any of the other snipers hear popoing on my thread. Time to show them or go by by!:D
QuietShootr
05-22-12, 19:57
I beat you to it Quiet.
But that was in the other (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=104800) thread discussing these remarkably unremarkable groups.
You're still a prick, but that was well played, sir.
Suwannee Tim
Yea and I'm still awaiting your absolutely perfect cloverleafs(10 shots) at 100 yards or your sub MOA at 200? :sarcastic: Or any of the other snipers hear popoing on my thread. Time to show them or go by by!:D
An average 100 yard 10 shot group out of a precision AR with no rear bag or support of any kind in the rear (~0.5 MOA). There is either something wrong with your equipment or your ability to manipulate said equipment. You would be better served by identifying where your failure point is and working on correcting it than calling other people out. Don't assume that because you can't do something, nobody else can either. And there is no shortage of no-shit snipers on M4C...just in case you weren't tracking.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/bcm410.jpg
QuietShootr
05-22-12, 20:04
Suwannee Tim
Yea and I'm still awaiting your absolutely perfect cloverleafs(10 shots) at 100 yards or your sub MOA at 200? :sarcastic: Or any of the other snipers hear popoing on my thread. Time to show them or go by by!:D
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff494/QS308shooter/3172aac4.jpg
well, that's .72MOA at 200 yards with the flyer, and .16MOA without it.
You asked.
Suwannee Tim
05-22-12, 20:08
Suwannee Tim
Yea and I'm still awaiting your absolutely perfect cloverleafs(10 shots) at 100 yards or your sub MOA at 200? :sarcastic: Or any of the other snipers hear popoing on my thread. Time to show them or go by by!:D
The problem Mr. Nut, I've never photographed a group. Reason being I have never shot a group I thought worthy of a photograph though I have shot plenty of groups. Tell you what. I'll take my camera to the range on Friday. I'll shoot and photograph a group tighter than what you have displayed here. Off hand. How's that?
Suwannee Tim
05-22-12, 20:34
To hold you over until Friday, here is a group shot off hand with my 22 Long Rifle LMT MRP, 55 yards.
http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr228/allentimfrank/IMG_2528.jpg
I was playing around there so the group is not the tightest and it is a lot more than 10 shots.
jonconsiglio
05-22-12, 21:33
This was shot with Federal m193 using the magazine as a rest with about 5 seconds per shot from a 14.5" cold hammer forged BCM barrel with a T1.
10 shot groups are important because they show the true range of the barrel. I could get tighter with five rounds, most likely, but I could keep 30 in the same size group as the ten. I could fire one round right now, and I know it'll end up in the area that those ten rounds occupy. With five round groups, it's a good indicator, but I may hit outside that area with my first shot tomorrow. Not with a ten round group, if that makes sense. It makes sense as I'm typing it, hopefully I conveyed it properly.
There's actually a couple more rounds right at the bottom of the ruler, but I fired those in a different string.
This is about the best I can expect from this ammo and barrel combination, regardless of optic. With match grade ammo, I can tighten it up. I got a little over-zealous when writing on the target... This was actually closer to 85 yards, or just a little more.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7220/7089442179_5312a0d5a6_c.jpg
Suwannee Tim
05-23-12, 05:10
.....10 shot groups are important because they show the true range of the barrel. I could get tighter with five rounds, most likely, but I could keep 30 in the same size group as the ten.....[/IMG]
Jon hints at this fact: As you shoot a group it grows larger and larger. After about 10 shots the growth becomes small and after 25 or 30 shots the growth becomes negligible. Ten shot groups provide a much better measure of accuracy than 5 shot groups. 5 and even 3 shot groups are popular because they are easier and cheaper to shoot and provide the naive shooter with more satisfaction.
QuietShootr
05-23-12, 08:28
Jon hints at this fact: As you shoot a group it grows larger and larger. After about 10 shots the growth becomes small and after 25 or 30 shots the growth becomes negligible. Ten shot groups provide a much better measure of accuracy than 5 shot groups. 5 and even 3 shot groups are popular because they are easier and cheaper to shoot and provide the naive shooter with more satisfaction.
Exactly right, with one caveat (IMO). A ten round (or more) group is a test of the entire system: Rifle, ammunition, optic, the care with which all of that was assembled and prepared, and the shooter's ability to do the same thing every time. Again IMO, a 3 or 5 round group is more a test of the equipment, because the SHOOTER has less chance of ****ing up. Example - the test target that came with my new stick is a 3 shot .15" group at 100 yards. To me that was a fair mechanical test of what the gun is capable of. Any variations greater than that are attributable to something else - so I know to begin with that anything larger than that is something that I did incorrectly. 10 rounds, however, will tell me what me and the system are capable of as it sits - which is obviously going to be greater than .15MOA.
The OP's rifle isn't going to do that no matter how many 3-round groups he shoots, but he should be able to get it down to 1-1.5 or so, I would think.
jonconsiglio
05-23-12, 11:06
Suwannee Tim, that's exactly what I was trying to say.
QuietShooter, I agree. I shoot ten shot groups to see what the whole set up is capable of and what is basically the extreme spread. For a 2" group with the POA being the dead center, I know that at any time I can fire a round at that distance and be within 1" of my POA.
Notice my 3 round group from my irons. I wasn't putting much care into it and I was more concerned with windage at that moment, but I'm at a point where my three round groups will be a little smaller, but similar to my ten round groups. Some will be tighter, some will be about the same.
An average 100 yard 10 shot group out of a precision AR with no rear bag or support of any kind in the rear (~0.5 MOA). There is either something wrong with your equipment or your ability to manipulate said equipment. You would be better served by identifying where your failure point is and working on correcting it than calling other people out. Don't assume that because you can't do something, nobody else can either. And there is no shortage of no-shit snipers on M4C...just in case you weren't tracking.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/bcm410.jpg
Apologies for the hijack, but what do you use to get the group info like that?
Apologies for the hijack, but what do you use to get the group info like that?
http://www.ontargetshooting.com/download1.html
Just be sure to calibrate the software with a known measurement on the target or the results will be wacky.
a0cake
Nice group but we're talking the average AR, not sniper rigs! :confused: I'm sure there are plenty of snipers here! And we all know there everyday rigs are not what the average AR shooter shoots.
QuietShootr
Nice!! What was your setup? :D
QuietShootr
05-23-12, 21:37
a0cake
Nice group but we're talking the average AR, not sniper rigs! :confused: I'm sure there are plenty of snipers here! And we all know there everyday rigs are not what the average AR shooter shoots.
QuietShootr
Nice!! What was your setup? :D
FN A3G .308 with NF 5-15x50, and that group was shot with Federal Gold Medal Match factory 175gr ammo.
a0cake,QuietShootr
And what are the weight of your rigs? As we have a weight limit on hunting rifles here in Idaho. And like most precision rigs they are to heavy to lug around in the woods and are above the legal limit. Could never understand why anyone would want to lug a 10 lb rifle around the mountains but I guess they put the wt limit on so no ne uses a .50 cal Barret.:rolleyes:
QuietShootr
05-24-12, 07:54
a0cake,QuietShootr
And what are the weight of your rigs? As we have a weight limit on hunting rifles here in Idaho. And like most precision rigs they are to heavy to lug around in the woods and are above the legal limit. Could never understand why anyone would want to lug a 10 lb rifle around the mountains but I guess they put the wt limit on so no ne uses a .50 cal Barret.:rolleyes:
It's about 13 pounds all up, and I have carried rifles this heavy and heavier for many miles up and down some pretty shitty terrain. Weight is the price you pay for accuracy like that, and I'm okay with it.
And a legal weight limit on a hunting rifle? That's wrong as two boys ****ing. Who the hell came up with that stupid regulation?
I just checked. As gay as it is, the weight limit for hunting rifles in Idaho is 16 pounds complete with all accessories mounted.
Suwannee Tim
Yea and I'm still awaiting your absolutely perfect cloverleafs(10 shots) at 100 yards or your sub MOA at 200? :sarcastic: Or any of the other snipers hear popoing on my thread. Time to show them or go by by! :D
a0cake
Nice group but we're talking the average AR, not sniper rigs! :confused: I'm sure there are plenty of snipers here! And we all know there everyday rigs are not what the average AR shooter shoots.
QuietShootr
Nice!! What was your setup? :D
Man, you called 'em out independent of what gun they may be using. Even threw the term "sniper" out there. You made your bed...
Nice group but we're talking the average AR
HK416, 16.5" barrel, Comp M4, SS109, prone magazine supported @ 100 meters, rapid fire (2 seconds pr shot approx):
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/1790/100metergroup.jpg
a0cake,QuietShootr
And what are the weight of your rigs? As we have a weight limit on hunting rifles here in Idaho. And like most precision rigs they are to heavy to lug around in the woods and are above the legal limit. Could never understand why anyone would want to lug a 10 lb rifle around the mountains but I guess they put the wt limit on so no ne uses a .50 cal Barret.:rolleyes:
It's a regular old AR with a stainless barrel. I could do the same thing with a light-ass 11.5'' SBR as long as it had a good barrel and a decent optic.
I thought the point you were trying to make is that your shooting was up to par, not that your rifle was capable of producing a certain sized group.
No offense, but I say again, either there is something wrong with your equipment or you are a below-average shooter, or both.
Have you had a proven shooter print some groups with the rifle to try to figure out which one it is?
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