View Full Version : Which .45 auto to choose? Help please!
Hello all, im a brand new member. First website, first post. Ive been shooting firearms all my life, but mainly rifles. I just got into handguns and sold an AR to fund it. Problem is I cant decide. I hope this doesnt start a big debate but to be honest im not 100 percent on the .45 caliber. Im sure I should start small like 9mm to learn better mechanics and it being cheaper, but .45 has always been what I told myself I would get since this would be home, carry and range.
So what gun, please share your vast knowledge and experience with a beginner in handguns. Ive been mainly looking at smiths m&p line, hk 45, and hk USP but other suggestions are welcomed and encouraged so help before I get to frustrated. :suicide2: :confused:
Ps. I know the 1911 should be on the list but I am currently saving up for a custum from baer or wilson for in future ;)
Also I know hk45 is improvment of usp but more expensive so info on that appreciated
Beat Trash
05-19-12, 17:17
I'd strongly recommend you look into a 9mm. First and foremost because the ammunition is cheaper. This allows you more practice ammo.
The difference in effectiveness using modern ammunition between the calibers isn't that much of an issue.
I've used an issued M&P 9mm for over 6 years now. It's a good system. The H&K P30 is an excellent gun also. If I went that route, I'd go with the LEM trigger. The LEM trigger is an acquired taste. Some like it, some don't. The biggest issue with the H&K line is the cost of the gun and magazines.
The best advice is to do as much research as possible. Then try to rent and/or borrow samples of what you're interested and shoot them.
How a gun feels in the hand at the gun shop and how it feels in your hand while actually shooting it isn't always the same.
P.S. I don't know that a 1911 should be on your list. Take some of the money you are saving up for a custom 1911 and use it to pay for a training class or two.
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii309/Hohopelli/DSC07719.jpg
Thanks for the quick response. I agree with you about classes. I would have already but I dont live in free america (resident of new york state). And it xosts me alot to do carbine classes when going out of state. The reason .45 was what I was considering was do to magazine capacity. I can obly have 10 rounds anyway so I figured might as well go with bigger caliber. But now that I been seeing how much cheaper 9mm is I believer you are right. As far as the cusom 1911 this is my 3 rd time saving up. I always find better uses. First was a BCM EAG rifle and second was a carbine class ha ha im sure il find something else again
I only have 1911s and one old Sig Sauer P220 that I bought back in 1995. The Glock offering looks like a winner and if its anything like the 9mm pistols, you should be GTG. I have 2 Glock 9mm (NOT Gen 4s) that have been flawless, even with crap ammo. Good luck.
I would not recommend a 1911 as a first handgun. If you are committed to a 45 ACP, look closely at these weapons (in my order of preference based on cost, accuracy, and reliability, etc.): M&P45 Midsize, HK45C, Glock 21 Gen 4. Of note, the HK45 series is more expensive and takes more time to master the trigger than the competition. However, its combination of durability and accuracy is outstanding.
I'd stay away from Sig and Beretta PX4 products in 45 ACP. The 1911 is a great platform - if you are willing to invest at least $2K in money or time to keep in running.
F-Trooper05
05-19-12, 19:27
HK45C. Recommending a 1911 to a first time pistol owner is ****ing retarded.
Glock or Springfield XD. Point and shoot, no drama and goes bang every time. Great 1st .45. Go to a 1911 later when you want a thoroughbread.
Glock or Springfield XD. Point and shoot, no drama and goes bang every time. Great 1st .45. Go to a 1911 later when you want a thoroughbread.
Indeed.. Good advice.. Ron
HK45C. Recommending a 1911 to a first time pistol owner is ****ing retarded.
I understand some of the reluctance to recommend a 1911 to a novice, but the OP is not new to firearms. Possibly there is somewhat of a learning curve to 1911's, but that's mostly in buying wisely. With a wise purchase, possibly a trigger job and a few hundred rounds downrange anyone can become proficient with a 1911. The government has been proving that with F-in morons since WW1.. Not for everyone I suppose and there's lots of choices, however bashing a honest opinion in a post makes you look the F-in moron.. Just saying.. Ron
RogerinTPA
05-19-12, 20:08
Another vote for the M&P Midsize 45 with 10+1 mag cap, especially if living in a ban state. It also won't break the bank. The ammo to practice, however, is another story.
DeltaSierra
05-19-12, 20:17
OK well...
Since you aren't even set on this thing being chambered in .45, let me suggest a Glock 19...
Do you reload? The M&P 45 I just bought would have been a 9mm if I wasn't sitting on buckets of 45 brass and set up to reload from years of shooting 1911's.
If I didn't reload I would not by a 45. A 9 will do the job.
OK well...
Since you aren't even set on this thing being chambered in .45, let me suggest a Glock 19...
I concur.
DeltaSierra
05-19-12, 21:22
-edit-
squad_bucket
05-19-12, 21:51
I have owned M&Ps in 9, 40 and .45 in both compact and full size versions. When I'm able to sqeeze in some range time, I try to focus on firing what would be my go to weapon. That meant that I rarely fired the others. Over time I sold them or traded to fund other builds, and in the end only the full size M&P .45 remains. If I had more time and expendable funds I would still have them all, but it is what it is...
The M&P is utterly reliable and won't break the bank. It points well and is balanced. And In .45 acp, it's a shop stopper.
Of course if you like a gun that points naturally at the sky, you may prefer the Glocks grip angle.
DeltaSierra
05-19-12, 21:59
The M&P is utterly reliable and won't break the bank. It points well and is balanced. And In .45 acp, it's a shop stopper.
Interesting. I didn't know that being shot with a .45 was a "shop stopper."
Of course if you like a gun that points naturally at the sky, you may prefer the Glocks grip angle.
I don't see how comments like that are useful in the current discussion.
As a matter of fact, I think that the whole "grip angle" thing is a bit odd anyway...
squad_bucket
05-19-12, 22:18
When I regarded the .45 acp as a "show stopper" I was referring to how astethicaly attractive the round was. Who said anything about being shot?
And grip angle is an important aspect of a firearm when choosing your next purchase. That May be relevant when considering the OP's request to help select a firearm.
I did not intend to offend anyone with my Glock observation, my apologies....
Alaskapopo
05-19-12, 22:25
When I regarded the .45 acp as a "show stopper" I was referring to how astethicaly attractive the round was. Who said anything about being shot?
And grip angle is an important aspect of a firearm when choosing your next purchase. That May be relevant when considering the OP's request to help select a firearm.
I did not intend to offend anyone with my Glock observation, my apologies....
I have never thought about a cartridge as being astethicaly pleasing. The guns sure but the round? I personally also recommend a Glock 19 or 17. The Smith M&P and Walther PPQ are also options to look at.
pat
I'd suggest 9mm but why is a 1911 a retarded 1st choice? Didn't a lot of beginners start with it or revolvers for the past 100 years and do ok?
If you lived in a free state, I'd recommend a used 9 mm Glock, M&P9, or HK P30 and lots of training...
However, since you are stuck in a nanny state with an asinine regulation restricting you to neutered 10 rd mags, I'd recommend:
Glock 26
Glock 19 w/grip cut to accept G26 10 rd mags
S&W 3913
S&W 4566
M&P Shield in 9 mm
M&P40c
M&P45
HK45c
HK45
1911 (good quality--expect to pay in the $2500+ range)
Before purchasing anything, be sure you have received high quality initial training. Then try to ensure ongoing practice sessions.
Don't purchase a lot of different firearms. After having gone through the juvenile collector stage of idiotically wasting money by purchasing one or two of every type of service pistol ever produced, I finally grew-up and realized it is far better to strive to master one quality pistol type, then be perpetually mediocre with many. I strongly recommend purchasing two or three identical pistols once you have decided upon the model that you plan to use, carry, and train with. I dedicate one pistol for carry after thoroughly vetting function with 1000 or so rounds through it. Another identical pistol is solely used for training--it is shot till it breaks with minimal cleaning or babying during its service life. If I am able to afford a third pistol, it serves as a back-up to the other two and usually sits in an easily accessible safe as a readily available personal defense weapon mounting an x300 light.
To summarize, pick a pistol, get a couple of identical ones, shoot them for a decade or so trying to get at least 200 rds of quality practice shots downrange a week, then re-assess as needed.
m1a_scoutguy
05-19-12, 22:59
Well as the "original" question was asked,,,I Need help choosing a 45 acp handgun. ;) The guy has had guns and knows a bit about them,,so telling him to get a 9mm is like going to buy a new GT500 Mustang and everyone is telling you to buy a Focus,,Hmmm,,it ain't gonna happen,,,LOL !!!!! Dude,,lots of good info,,,,but get a 45,,its what you want !!!!! :D I would pick any of the Striker Fired pistols,,go look at them,,get a feel for them,,figure out a price you are willing to pay for the 1st choice,,2nd choice,,etc,,but I think they are all in the same ballpark price wize,,close anyways !!! HK are Great pistols,,had one Sold it,,,Sigs are great pistols,,,had one Sold it,,to much going on for "me" on those style guns,,,,single action,,double action,,decoker,,safety,,,blaa,,I know I'm a whine ass,,but thats me,,,LOL !!! Look at a Glock 21,,M&P and then a XD,,you decide,,its your $$$$ !!! ;)
BigBuckeye
05-19-12, 22:59
My first handgun was a Springfield GI 1911.....nothing wrong with that choice. Never missed a beat.
Well as the "original" question was asked,,,I Need help choosing a 45 acp handgun. ;) The guy has had guns and knows a bit about them,,so telling him to get a 9mm is like going to buy a new GT500 Mustang and everyone is telling you to buy a Focus,,Hmmm,,it ain't gonna happen,,,LOL !!!!! Dude,,lots of good info,,,,but get a 45,,its what you want !!!!! :D I would pick any of the Striker Fired pistols,,go look at them,,get a feel for them,,figure out a price you are willing to pay for the 1st choice,,2nd choice,,etc,,but I think they are all in the same ballpark price wize,,close anyways !!! HK are Great pistols,,had one Sold it,,,Sigs are great pistols,,,had one Sold it,,to much going on for "me" on those style guns,,,,single action,,double action,,decoker,,safety,,,blaa,,I know I'm a whine ass,,but thats me,,,LOL !!! Look at a Glock 21,,M&P and then a XD,,you decide,,its your $$$$ !!! ;)
The OP stated that he:
-Wasn't 100% on caliber
-Is new to handguns
-Wanted us to "share your vast knowledge and experience with a beginner in handguns"
With all that said, there is nothing wrong with 9mm recommendations (and quite a lot right with them for that matter).
To continue your car analogy, what is a better vehicle for someone who has never owned a car before, can't drive a manual transmission, probably has a limited fuel budget, and doesn't have $50k on hand (or whatever a GT500 costs these days)...a Focus or a GT500?
I'll second the Glock 19 recommendation then add:
FNP45.
I've got a few thousand rounds through mine and it's been Glock-reliable with any ammo I've put through it. It's a big pistol so don't plan on concealed carrying it,but if you have decent sized hands it shouldn't be a problem.
m1a_scoutguy
05-19-12, 23:12
The OP stated that he:
-Wasn't 100% on caliber
-Is new to handguns
-Wanted us to "share your vast knowledge and experience with a beginner in handguns"
With all that said, there is nothing wrong with 9mm recommendations (and quite a lot right with them for that matter).
Dang,,your fast,,LOL !!! Yea,,I agree,,I was just trying to reassure him,,that the 45 is still a good choice,,I hate to get swayed,,buy a 9mm and then say shit,,,I really wish I had stuck it out for the 45 !! :) Ammo is a BIG factor,,,probably the biggest,,especially if you really want to shoot alot and not have a safe queen !! I was just throwing my 2 cent worth out there,,nothing more !!! :D Looks like he is a fellow NYer,,,drop me a PM on your location,,,maybe we are close,,I'll be glad to head to the range with ya and let ya try out some stuff !!
And I figure if your going to go buy a GT 500,,you have done your research and have the means to pay for it !! Maybe even gone onto a car forum and ask questions about it !! ;);)
The 9mm controversy in this discussion can be put to bed quickly.. I have a Springfield Armory P19134LP (9mm) 1911 that I bought for $859. I've ran about 3000 rounds through it now with a dozen factory mags with zero failures. I did have the ignition system stoned correctly, but that's it.. Just saying.. Ron
crowkiller
05-20-12, 00:28
Striker fires M&P45 midsize in da/sa or lem id go HK45, HK45c or USP45 compact.
Gary1911A1
05-20-12, 04:48
If you have your mind made up to get a .45, the M&P is a good choice. Accurate, reliable, and at a cost that won't break the bank even with some Apex Trigger Parts.
I have had great experience with both H&K USP and XDM, in my opinion you can't go wrong with either.
Rent and borrow as many types as you can. Get the pistol that fits your hand the best and that you shoot well. Then master it.
Being another NYer that has asked the same question as the OP in the past, I notice that ppl usually point the asker in the direction of guns that only hold 10 or less rds by design. If all defensive ammo is equal for service calibers, why not still get the G19, P30, M&P9, P2000 etc but just use 10 rd mags?
If you lived in a free state, I'd recommend a used 9 mm Glock, M&P9, or HK P30 and lots of training...
However, since you are stuck in a nanny state with an asinine regulation restricting you to neutered 10 rd mags, I'd recommend:
Glock 26
Glock 19 w/grip cut to accept G26 10 rd mags
S&W 3913
S&W 4566
M&P Shield in 9 mm
M&P40c
M&P45
HK45c
HK45
1911 (good quality--expect to pay in the $2500+ range)
Before purchasing anything, be sure you have received high quality initial training. Then try to ensure ongoing practice sessions.
Don't purchase a lot of different firearms. After having gone through the juvenile collector stage of idiotically wasting money by purchasing one or two of every type of service pistol ever produced, I finally grew-up and realized it is far better to strive to master one quality pistol type, then be perpetually mediocre with many. I strongly recommend purchasing two or three identical pistols once you have decided upon the model that you plan to use, carry, and train with. I dedicate one pistol for carry after thoroughly vetting function with 1000 or so rounds through it. Another identical pistol is solely used for training--it is shot till it breaks with minimal cleaning or babying during its service life. If I am able to afford a third pistol, it serves as a back-up to the other two and usually sits in an easily accessible safe as a readily available personal defense weapon mounting an x300 light.
To summarize, pick a pistol, get a couple of identical ones, shoot them for a decade or so trying to get at least 200 rds of quality practice shots downrange a week, then re-assess as needed.
Texassixguns
05-20-12, 10:35
+1 on Springfield XD or Glock... Both simple, reliable, easy to field strip and clean.... S&W M&P are reliable and go bang every time like any S&W i have ever owned... But i just dont care for S&W triggers.... H&K USP are awesome but unless you are LE/Military for carry or Competitive shooter.... They are much more $ wise. 1911's are the Cadillacs or 45's esp Kimbers or Upgrade Springfields.... But are more $ and complicated field stripping for newbies.... Imo
1911's are the Cadillacs or 45's esp Kimbers
:nono:
for a first centerfire handgun a 9mm does make a lot of sense. as a fellow NY'er I want to make sure you are aware you can own full cap mags if they are pre-ban, and no, how new your pistol is has nothing to do with it. Wether the gun was made 30 years ago or yesterday you can still use pre ban mags.
Considering the high cap 9mm's that were common enough before the ban to be able to get a reasonable supply of mags,my choices for you would be (in no particular order)
glock 19 or 17
beretta 92
sig 226
I have been slammed on this here before but I also suggest the 22 rimfire as a great training tool. both beretta and sig and to a lesser degree glock all have 22 conversion kits available, or a spare 22 like a ruger standard auto would be a great help in basic marksmanship training.
Lost River
05-20-12, 12:20
Personally I would suggest:
A third gen G19
A class with a quality instructor, who first teaches you what the fundamentals of handgun marksmanship are, then teaches how to focus on them.
Buy as much ball ammo as you can afford and practice shooting accurately, not fast. Fast will come later.
Re-assess your needs/wants and take another class based on those.
Join an IPSC/IDPA club.
Look around your house to figure out what you can sell to fund your new addiction... I mean sport .... :)
F-Trooper05
05-20-12, 12:33
Being another NYer that has asked the same question as the OP in the past, I notice that ppl usually point the asker in the direction of guns that only hold 10 or less rds by design. If all defensive ammo is equal for service calibers, why not still get the G19, P30, M&P9, P2000 etc but just use 10 rd mags?
Glocks in particular suck with 10 round mags. Not sure about the others.
m1a_scoutguy
05-20-12, 13:10
Glocks in particular suck with 10 round mags. Not sure about the others.
:confused::confused: In what way,,because of capacity or other reasons ?? I have a G17 & use only 10 rd mags,,yes,,more capacity is nice,,but not a deal killer. Just wondering. :)
Like LAV says,,,,"Speed Is Fine,,But Accuracy Is Final" !! For competition the High caps are great,,but most self-defense,,or actual shootings don't take much more than a few Rd's I would think !!
How so? Feeding issues? Are the mags not built the same as normal capacity mags? I have some drop free prebans which I need springs for but was considering sticking with 10 rounders instead of hunting down and paying for $100 mags that are 20 yrs old. Non drop free is cheaper but I don't want them.
Glocks in particular suck with 10 round mags. Not sure about the others.
Were I shopping for a .45 ACP today, I would start with a S&W MP45 and maybe the HK45 if I could find one at a decent price.
kokopelli--you might be interested in ToddG's new handgun trial, as he is going to be running a 9 mm SA 1911 for 2012-2013: http://pistol-training.com/archives/6661.
Indeed! Cheers.. Ron
Being another NYer that has asked the same question as the OP in the past, I notice that ppl usually point the asker in the direction of guns that only hold 10 or less rds by design. If all defensive ammo is equal for service calibers, why not still get the G19, P30, M&P9, P2000 etc but just use 10 rd mags?
Is it equal or almost equal?
Littlelebowski
05-20-12, 14:40
Is it equal or almost equal?
Read this sticky by DocGKR (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887).
Short answer is "it doesn't matter."
Please don't turn this thread into a size versus capacity argument.
I’m going to buck several trends here. If you’re new to handgunning in general, get a 22. If you ignore that advice and get a centerfire anyway, at least get one that has a 22-caliber counterpart or one for which 22 conversion kits are available, then make getting the counterpart/kit a very high priority. All that’s been said about 9mm ammo being cheaper and easier to learn is true, and it’s even more true of the 22LR.
Trigger control is the hardest thing for new shooters to learn so the 45 ACP cartridge isn’t the best choice for starting out. This is especially true of factory ammo, which is expensive and tends to be loaded to full power. An experienced reloader can mitigate recoil with lighter loads, but that creates a galaxy of issues that we should discuss in a different thread.
The 1911 pistol, on the other hand, is easy to learn on. It usually has a good trigger and it tends to be easy to shoot well. But the 1911 is an expert’s tool if the shooter is under stress, and the striker-fired designs are far better choices. The design does have certain mechanical and technical issues that simply must be addressed by expert hands, but they’re covered in (exhaustive) detail elsewhere.
For your situation, I’d recommend any of the various Glocks with a 22 conversion kit. Holsters, sights, and other accessories abound. They rarely need work, but there are many, many people who can handle the few things you can’t figure out by watching YouTube. And if you ever move to a free state, you can wallow in cheap high-cap mags. Many shooters find the G17 easier to shoot well than the G19, but that’s a personal matter.
Almost all of these things are equally true for the M&P, but I’ll defer to those more knowledgeable as to which ones they are.
And of course there’s the 1911. The choice of aftermarket accessories is second to none. Ruger and Browning make pistols with the same grip shape and angle, your choices for ancillary gear are all but unlimited, and several people make excellent conversion kits.
But again, I think for your needs, a 9mm Glock is probably the ticket.
Okie John
F-Trooper05
05-20-12, 15:17
:confused::confused: In what way,,because of capacity or other reasons ?? I have a G17 & use only 10 rd mags,,yes,,more capacity is nice,,but not a deal killer. Just wondering. :)
Like LAV says,,,,"Speed Is Fine,,But Accuracy Is Final" !! For competition the High caps are great,,but most self-defense,,or actual shootings don't take much more than a few Rd's I would think !!
How so? Feeding issues? Are the mags not built the same as normal capacity mags? I have some drop free prebans which I need springs for but was considering sticking with 10 rounders instead of hunting down and paying for $100 mags that are 20 yrs old. Non drop free is cheaper but I don't want them.
Read this... http://pistol-training.com/archives/6459
Wow I've never heard that. Thanks for the link.
Read this... http://pistol-training.com/archives/6459
Read this sticky by DocGKR (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887).
Short answer is "it doesn't matter."
Please don't turn this thread into a size versus capacity argument.
Yeah, I was thinking of that exact thread when I said it. The OP lives in NY doesn't he??
"The nice aspects of .45 ACP are that it makes large holes, can be very accurate, and offers good penetration of some intermediate barriers. Unfortunately, magazine capacity is less than ideal, .45 ACP is more expensive to practice with, and in general is harder to shoot well compared with 9 mm. .45 ACP makes the most sense in states with idiotic 10 rd magazine restrictions, in departments that give you lots of free .45 ACP ammo, or in situations where modern expanding ammunition is restricted due to asinine, illogical regulations."
Leprechaun
05-20-12, 19:22
Smith and Wesson M&P .45 is a great well made accurate and affordable gun
m1a_scoutguy
05-20-12, 20:14
Read this... http://pistol-training.com/archives/6459
Hmmmm,,while interesting,,not much I can do about it !! And really 12 "stoppages" in 60+++K Rd's,,is really no big deal,,Glock or otherwise !!! I would hardly say Glocks "suck" with 10 rd mags !! ;) I have put over 5K through my G17 without any failure to "lock" back. Anyways,,,,what I also find interesting is the OP responded way back on page 1 & we haven't heard a peep since,,as we sit here and type out all our advice,,he very well could be home fondling his new,45/9mm,,,etc !!!! LOL !!! I guess time will tell !!!
Read this... http://pistol-training.com/archives/6459
I know of a few guys that have put thousands of rds through different guns (Glock, M&P and HK) using neutered mags without issue come to think of it.
Two years ago we loaded up two dozen Glock 10 round G17 magazines and used them to fire 500 rounds through a couple of G17's that had proven fully reliable with standard capacity magazines....Every single 10 rd magazine had failures to feed. They were complete trash that I would NEVER rely on.
I would buy same two handguns in a 9 and 45. That way you can shoot more with the 9 and still transition easily into the 45. I am going to sell my HK USP 45 and either go with a Glock 17 and 21 or the S&W MP 9 and 45.
First off, welcome to the site. I would highly recommend starting out with a 9mm polymer pistol for your first handgun. Some that I would suggest are Glock 19, Glock 17, Glock 26 with pearce grip extenstion, Springfield XDm 9mm, Springfield XD 9mm. If your budget allows, an HK45, HK45c or HK USP45.
The HK's are uberly reliable and wonderful shooters with resale being excellent. The Glocks are very reliable as well and all the polymer pistols are very easy to maintain. It would be a great idea to just go to your local gun store a few times and rent the pistols mentioned to see for yourself if you like any of them before you buy one.
It seems the best way to go would be to try out as many different guns as you can. Rent them call upon friends whatever u need to but never get a gun without at least shooting as many as you can.
kokopelli--you might be interested in ToddG's new handgun trial, as he is going to be running a 9 mm SA 1911 for 2012-2013: http://pistol-training.com/archives/6661.
Wow, I totally don't get the purpose behind this trial. If someone WERE going to carry a 1911, a 9mm in a lower-cost production version would be one of the least likely 1911's to pick. It'd be interesting to know what the reasoning is there, I couldn't find much about that at the site.
Wow, I totally don't get the purpose behind this trial. If someone WERE going to carry a 1911, a 9mm in a lower-cost production version would be one of the least likely 1911's to pick. It'd be interesting to know what the reasoning is there, I couldn't find much about that at the site.
His immediate action, already lightning fast, is going to become a whole lot faster with the increased repetition.
Found out a little more about it in one of their forum threads. These will actually be 9mm's made at their SA custom shop, following the design of the FBI HRT model, so higher quality than their production 9mm's. Todd has a post in this forum thread discussing specs:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4168-2012-2013-pistol-training-com-Endurance-Test-Gun-ANNOUNCED!/page10
Definitely an interesting concept, I'll be following this one.
In another page in the thread, Todd responded to somebody who had the same question I did, why 9mm in a 1911? The following are quotes:
"9mm because, as mentioned earlier, I've done the "year of high volume .45" thing and it was painful. Also, while the difference is small, there is a serious mental line in the sand for me between a 7/8 round magazine and a 10rd mag. I'm already going to be slightly below my own personal comfort level in terms of on-board ammo (12+1 being my personal magic number). And let's face it, I'm just a 9mm kind of guy.
Regarding reliability, Jason Burton of Heirloom Precision spent a considerable amount of time discussing the issues with me and convinced me that a well put together 9mm 1911 should run as reliably as a well put together .45 1911. (I would have loved to get a pair of Jason's guns, but spec'd out as I wanted them they would have cost almost as much as a year's worth of our mortgage and my wife is just crazy unreasonable about stuff like that)
In addition, I had a chance to discuss the project at length with Ken Hackathorn. Ken has a fondness for the 9mm 1911 and provided some great insights into running it day to day."
Littlelebowski
05-25-12, 18:34
His immediate action, already lightning fast, is going to become a whole lot faster with the increased repetition.
Nice. Just nice.
I was in the market for a .45 or a 9mm and I ended up getting the HK45. I shot just about every gun that is worth talking about in these 2 calibers at my range. It was great because I was dead set on the 9 at first but after shooting hundreds of rounds with the M&P9 and G17/19, I just really liked the HK45. I liked the price of the other guns but it just came down to which one did I want.
I was only looking for a gun for shooting at the range and home defense. When I end up getting a 9mm I am leaning toward a CZ or P30 but we will see. I need to shoot more with those guns and maybe the FNX-9 before I pick one.
Pre-ban G17 and G19 standard capacity magazines can be found and are perfectly lawful for possession and use under the NY (and MA) assault weapons ban(s). Pre-ban G22/G23 (40 S&W) and G21 (45 ACP) standard capacity magazines are somewhat harder to find, but they, too, exist. So, I might recommend considering the Glocks in 9mm, even if only for ammunition cost, but especially if the OP is lucky enough to reside in a county where CCW is a possibility.
(As an aside, I own and have used extensively the factory 10 round G19, G17, G23 and G21 magazines in the respective generation 3 Glocks for many years, and my anecdotal contribution is that I have never had a magazine-induced failure or issue with any of them (well, actually no failures of any sort). YMMV.)
For a newer pistol shooter, I would recommend 9mm as a better place to start than 45 ACP or 40 S&W, if only to minimize the chances of inciting a flinch or snatch. The 9 vs 45 wound ballistics comparison points have been made / linked above, and are worth reading.
I would also heartily echo the "spend your $$ on quality training and regular, focused practice" sentiments expressed above. Candidly, I think that's more important than what particular flavor of handgun you start with (assuming it's not a Hi Point). Better to learn "right", early, than to waste a lot of time blasting away and potentially ingraining bad habits. (Ask me how I know....)
If the caliber choice is to be 45 ACP, then I would add my voice to those who recommend the HK45 and HK45C, based on my personal experience. The initial expenditure is much higher than that for many other handguns, but if "you're doing it right", the pain should recede quickly versus the pain from your monthly ammunition bill.
I would also recommend trying multiple handguns before making your first purchase. Tough to do in NY, I know, but easy to do in nearby NH or CT (the latter with a CT non-resident pistol license). PM me if you'd like more specifics on this.
There are many more appliance type pistols other than the 1911. For a carry gun I would choose any Other pistol but there are not many pistols that are as nice to shoot as a high quality 1911. The 1911 is the perfect beginners pistol. I learned to shoot the 1911 with my dad when I was big enough to cycle the slide safely 10 to 12 years old "I am 60 now" and for fun my dad would let me field strip the 1911 when ever I wanted to. The 1911 is a fun pistol.
Alaskapopo
07-20-12, 17:46
There are many more appliance type pistols other than the 1911. For a carry gun I would choose any Other pistol but there are not many pistols that are as nice to shoot as a high quality 1911. The 1911 is the perfect beginners pistol. I learned to shoot the 1911 with my dad when I was big enough to cycle the slide safely 10 years old "I am 60 now" and for fun my dad would let me field strip the 1911 when ever I wanted to. The 1911 is a fun pistol.
I have to disagree there. While a 1911 is generally easy to shoot well due to its trigger. Its less than idea for new shooters because of the more complex manual of arms and the much more rigerous maintance schedule.
Pat
I have to disagree there. While a 1911 is generally easy to shoot well due to its trigger. Its less than idea for new shooters because of the more complex manual of arms and the much more rigerous maintance schedule.
Pat
What is so much more rigorous in your opinion?
Thanks
Littlelebowski
07-20-12, 17:51
There are many more appliance type pistols other than the 1911. For a carry gun I would choose any Other pistol but there are not many pistols that are as nice to shoot as a high quality 1911. The 1911 is the perfect beginners pistol. I learned to shoot the 1911 with my dad when I was big enough to cycle the slide safely 10 years old "I am 60 now" and for fun my dad would let me field strip the 1911 when ever I wanted to. The 1911 is a fun pistol.
Never thought I'd see that one.
Littlelebowski
07-20-12, 17:58
What is so much more rigorous in your opinion?
Thanks
Someone else who is an SME and guy who makes a living working on 1911s.....
Having been around quantities of issued 1911s for some time now, I can say that I do not envy the personnel who are charged to care for these guns. If we remove the discussions of caliber, weight, construction, and expense, and only look at the level of maintenance required, it is a less than ideal situation. Fixing or tuning one extractor is not the end of the world for a single user. Fixing a whole team's worth of extractors becomes a headache. Chasing a variety of parts wear/breakages in conjunction with the ever changing extractor issues as the guns age, that's an adventure. Tuning extractors on new(er) builds is not nearly the same as troubleshooting them on guns with extensive slide wear after 20-40k rounds.
Consider that the secondary weapon system will require more maintenance time than the primary weapon system, and more training required for the armorers providing that maintenance. A 16 hr school will get you pretty far on an M16, it just barely gets you through the front door on a 1911.
While I really love the 1911 for what it is, it is not currently the best choice for a unit issue service pistol. The advent of lightweight, polymer framed, high cap pistols where all the parts totally drop in and DO NOT REQUIRE tuning makes them a much better choice.
Alaskapopo
07-20-12, 18:23
What is so much more rigorous in your opinion?
Thanks
I have carried a single stack 1911 for many years and still compete with double stack 1911's. Things wear out on a 1911 much faster than a polimer gun like a Glock. I have had ejectors be replaced, plunger tubes fall off when I took the grips off, extractors need to be replaced ever 5k or less recoil springs ever 2k. Then you also need torun them wet or they don't run and this is with a good gun like a Wilson Combat like I had. Contrast that to a Glock 17 which really does not care if its cleaned or not dry or wet etc and will go thousands of rounds with no maintance.
Pat
I have carried a single stack 1911 for many years and still compete with double stack 1911's. Things wear out on a 1911 much faster than a polimer gun like a Glock. I have had ejectors be replaced, plunger tubes fall off when I took the grips off, extractors need to be replaced ever 5k or less recoil springs ever 2k. Then you also need torun them wet or they don't run and this is with a good gun like a Wilson Combat like I had. Contrast that to a Glock 17 which really does not care if its cleaned or not dry or wet etc and will go thousands of rounds with no maintance.
Pat
All I've ever changed on mine are recoil/firing pin springs. But I probably don't shoot as much as you.
I have to disagree there. While a 1911 is generally easy to shoot well due to its trigger. Its less than idea for new shooters because of the more complex manual of arms and the much more rigerous maintance schedule.
Pat
I learned to shoot my dads 1911 when I was around 10 to 12 years old ,it wasn't the first time I shot though. If I can shoot the 1911 when I was 10 to 12 any other person can as well. My kids loved the 1911. what is there to maintain that is difficult? The pistol has been around for a 100 years and until the internet generation, shooters had no problem with the operation or servicing the 1911.
All I've ever changed on mine are recoil/firing pin springs. But I probably don't shoot as much as you. I have a wwII parts 1911 it is sloppy but other than a wolfe spring kit the pistol shoots and shoots.
Never thought I'd see that one.
the 1911 was the first semi auto I shot . It is a safe pistol ,compare it to the A.Ds. records on the glocks. My kids learned to shoot a semi auto with a 1911. My son has a XD 9mm on his ltc though. I have a 38 442 j frame.
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-20-12, 22:30
Hk45/hk45c is going to be the best out of the box option.
brushy bill
07-20-12, 22:40
deleted post
Hk45/hk45c is going to be the best out of the box option.
What advantages do you think it has over the M&P45?
Thanks
Alaskapopo
07-20-12, 22:47
I learned to shoot my dads 1911 when I was around 10 to 12 years old ,it wasn't the first time I shot though. If I can shoot the 1911 when I was 10 to 12 any other person can as well. My kids loved the 1911. what is there to maintain that is difficult? The pistol has been around for a 100 years and until the internet generation, shooters had no problem with the operation or servicing the 1911.
Its nothing to do with the internet generation. I shoot a lot and if you do the 1911 requires armorer support. That is why most eliete military teams have dropped it. If you only plink at cans once or twice a month in the gravel pit you will not see these problems.
Pat
Alaskapopo
07-20-12, 22:48
the 1911 was the first semi auto I shot . It is a safe pistol ,compare it to the A.Ds. records on the glocks. My kids learned to shoot a semi auto with a 1911. My son has a XD 9mm on his ltc though. I have a 38 442 j frame.
There are plenty of ND's (not AD wrong terminolgy) on record with the 1911 in the US Military from the time they carried the 1911 hence part of the reason why it was usually mandated that it be carried condition 3. There are no safe pistols just safe users.
Pat
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-21-12, 01:32
Red hat,
Basically the HK45 is going to give you the most durable, vetted and developed gun right out of the box. You will note that it was recently picked up by the SEALS despite the presence of numerous cheaper options. I suspect this is because H&K seems the most free of random QC issues.
Its nothing to do with the internet generation. I shoot a lot and if you do the 1911 requires armorer support. That is why most eliete military teams have dropped it. If you only plink at cans once or twice a month in the gravel pit you will not see these problems.
Pat
That is why I used the term appliance type pistols/guns. Still IMO and that is just what it is the 1911 is a nice pistol and most gun collectors seem to have at least one. I have had the opportunity to shoot some high end 1911 race guns and all I can say is wow. But then like a race car they need maintenance.
Last summer, I decided that I wanted a new .45
I had narrowed down the choices to the HK45, Sig 220, Glock 21 and M&P .45
I had to eliminate the Glock because it was just a bit to big for my small hands.
I eliminated the HK45 because common, off the shelf accessories weren't there. I can't walk into a local gun store and find HK45 mags and holsters readily available. That may not be a big deal to some, but it was to me. And, IIRC, the rail on the HK is different than other railed guns. So, if you intend to have a light that would add another accessory.
I went back and forth between the Sig and the M&P for a long time. I made several trips to local gun stores comparing the two side by side. There aren't any rental shops within 200 miles, so that wasn't an option either.
Again, I made my decision based on availability and cost of accessories like holsters and magazines. I figured that for the cost difference between the Sig and M&P, I could buy ammo, mags and a holster.
I bought a mid size M&P .45 from G and R, and haven't looked back.
Alaskapopo
07-21-12, 19:36
That is why I used the term appliance type pistols/guns. Still IMO and that is just what it is the 1911 is a nice pistol and most gun collectors seem to have at least one. I have had the opportunity to shoot some high end 1911 race guns and all I can say is wow. But then like a race car they need maintenance.
I love 1911's and I use them as race guns now but I don't trust them for carry anymore.
Pat
For a new shooter, I would suggest either a Glock 30 or S&W M&P 45 as a first .45ACP handgun....especially if you are limited to ten round magazines in your state.
1911 takes a little training, but it IS a natural shooter. Thumb safety takes training.
Glock SF models is great and MAY be the optimum for people who don't get Glock-bite, and fits their hand.
I know the XD takes a bunch of heat on this site, but they are slim in the grip, reliable and accurate, and made very well. The compact model fits the med-large hand very well. I don't like their complicated extractor/slide.
Fn 45 or fn 45 tactical..15+1 and red dot capability. Can also carry cocked and locked like a 1911 if desired.
Microalign
07-22-12, 15:18
Hello all, im a brand new member. First website, first post. Ive been shooting firearms all my life, but mainly rifles. I just got into handguns and sold an AR to fund it. Problem is I cant decide. I hope this doesnt start a big debate but to be honest im not 100 percent on the .45 caliber. Im sure I should start small like 9mm to learn better mechanics and it being cheaper, but .45 has always been what I told myself I would get since this would be home, carry and range.
So what gun, please share your vast knowledge and experience with a beginner in handguns. Ive been mainly looking at smiths m&p line, hk 45, and hk USP but other suggestions are welcomed and encouraged so help before I get to frustrated. :suicide2: :confused:
Ps. I know the 1911 should be on the list but I am currently saving up for a custum from baer or wilson for in future ;)
Also I know hk45 is improvment of usp but more expensive so info on that appreciated
Both the M&P and H&K are outstanding .45acps. I would say that it would likely boil down to more of a personal preference rather than one make eclipsing the other in performance. I encourage you to go to a gun range where you can try these models out as rentals and see what you think. If you reload, the M&P uses standard rifling, so you can shoot a wider range of low cost bullets in it unlike the H&K. The H&K will also be an overall more expensive investment too with factor parts and accessories.
brickboy240
07-23-12, 10:54
While I agree that the usual best answer to all of those "which auto pistol do I buy?' questions from new shooters is USUALLY a Glock 19, I have to alter that a tad.
First, the recent G19s are having ejection issues. A new shooter does not need to add dodging brass to the head to his list of things to learn and improve on.
Second, he asked for a 45.
One pistol that everyone here has avoided is a nice, lightly used W. German SIG P220. This will run you hundreds less than most other 45s mentioned and half the price of the HK45.
The P220 is accurate and reliable and with its single stack, feels good in the hand. It is a well made gun that puts the bullets where you want it. Accessories and mags are not hard to find and it is lighter than steel 1911s and yet flat and as easy to conceal as most 1911s.
Everyone always forgets about this 45, but I have to admit that my old W. German P220 is one of the least troublesome 45s I have ever owned. Boringly reliable and an overall predictable pistol that can be had for around 400-450 bucks if you look around enough.
Check out the older W. German made P220s....they're a pretty good choice if you want a 45.
- brickboy240
I carry a stock Sig 220r everyday 24/7 in a nelson leather IWB even with a t-shirt on. All year round with one extra mag in a pocket holster and few more mags a 2 box,s of 45acp ammo in the truck. It has never jammed in 1000,s of rds and a decade of use. Like the 1911 ,but carry the Sig220. Its enough gun for me.
I agree with the a g21. Goes bang and easy to use. Not to menction 1/4th of the price of a decent 1911.
brickboy240
07-25-12, 12:57
The G21 feels like a fencepost in the hand.
The SIG P220 feels more like a 1911 and it also goes bang every time. You won't need 10-13 rds of 45....7-8 ought to do the job besides, it is easier to pack around all day.
- brickboy240
QuickStrike
07-25-12, 18:16
Just going to throw out my vote among many others.
HK45C.
A quality design that will likely run very well out of the box.
Durable
Accurate
IMO soft recoil
small enough for CCW
In .45 ACP, I recommend either a Gen 3 or Gen4 Glock G21;
In 9mm, HK P30/P30L, Beretta 92 or Glock G17/G19.
In a single-action gun, a Browning/FN Hi-Power.
Best, Jon
If you must go 45ACP go to a gun store that has a range and shoot all that you mentioned. I would also recommend you look into 22LR conversion kits. See which one you like the best as far as performance, feel, looks, price, options. Then buy it.
But all the same I would get a 9mm before then. LOL
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