View Full Version : The future of handguards.
While trying to decide between the purchase of 3 different handguards (KAC URX3, Rainier Arms Revolution, and Noveske's NSR) some questions came to mind. What is the future of handguards. Obviously smooth, bolt rails are hugely popular. The pluses are obvious to shooters on this site so I dont think I need to waste the bandwidth.
Standard picatinny rails are still going strong as well. Noveske's system is extremely interesting because it will use a standard rail but its Keymod system plans to eliminate the rail on some accessories. Here is some info on it from Rainer's website http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3112
"The KeyMod inter-locking rail system is a collaboration between Vltor Weapon Systems and Noveske Rifleworks. Separately, both companies were in development of their own systems, but later realizing that both systems were similar, a standardization of the KeyMod system came to be.
The KeyMod system offers a mounting platform for a variety of (future) accessories and components. The days of the Picatinny Rail (MIL-STD-1913) are numbered. The future of the direct mountable accessory is here and now. The KeyMod self-contained components/mounting hardware index and V-block onto the platform, achieving a secured and accurate hold to the system, while separate lugs take the recoil force off the fasteners. The pass through attachment method eliminates the need for loose screws and backing plates that can easily be lost, or difficult to install. Another advantage of the KeyMod system over the 1913 system is the direct attach eliminates the need for the 1913 system as a “middle Man” thereby reducing weight and accessory off-set from the center of the handguard.
Finally, in the near future, the direct-mount KeyMod components will include items such as, 1913 rail sections, polymer covers (in various lengths and colors), hand stops, QD-Sling Mounts, bipods, K9 barricade supports and more. Also, the NSR handguard system will have an optional heat shield which installs through the front and does not occupy any KeyMod holes."
Interesting concept in reference to eliminating the picatinny rail and I really like the idea of minimizing offset length. I doubt the pic rail is going anywhere but I wanted to start a discussion on where people think handguards are going. Are the bolt on rail sections guard here to stay, will the standard fixed rail type still be the mainstay, or is a completely new mount type (such as the Noveske KeyMod) going to be the new standard down the road?
-Jax
Pic quad rails are here to stay for a while. The Keymod is still very proprietary and will stay that way for a while. Pic's the std. and will be for a long time. But the trend is definitely moving away from the quad rail,as most folks typically don't need all that rail and/or weight.
The traditional 4-sided rail is quickly becoming the dinosaur of the AR. The adaptibility of bolt-on rails far outweigh any perceived advantage of a quad rail. The next evolution of the rail system will be the Power Rail. A rechargeable battery will power all the components attached to a rail instead of having to carry batteries for each item. Whomever can get a quality version to the market first will make quite a lot of coin.
The traditional 4-sided rail is quickly becoming the dinosaur of the AR. The adaptibility of bolt-on rails far outweigh any perceived advantage of a quad rail. The next evolution of the rail system will be the Power Rail. A rechargeable battery will power all the components attached to a rail instead of having to carry batteries for each item. Whomever can get a quality version to the market first will make quite a lot of coin.
You said that and I automatically thought of Wilcox:
http://www.wilcoxind.com/Powered-Rails-C36.aspx
-Jax
sinlessorrow
05-20-12, 12:08
The traditional 4-sided rail is quickly becoming the dinosaur of the AR. The adaptibility of bolt-on rails far outweigh any perceived advantage of a quad rail. The next evolution of the rail system will be the Power Rail. A rechargeable battery will power all the components attached to a rail instead of having to carry batteries for each item. Whomever can get a quality version to the market first will make quite a lot of coin.
that may be true in the civilian world, but I wouldnt hand 500,000 joe's a rail system with bolt on rail pieces that they could and will lose when you turn your back for 5 seconds.
that may be true in the civilian world, but I wouldnt hand 500,000 joe's a rail system with bolt on rail pieces that they could and will lose when you turn your back for 5 seconds.
Excellent point man. Reminds me of all the guys I saw lose KAC panels while I was in the army.
I am curious to see where the military/LEO will go with handguards. The tradition for years was for civilian/competition shooters to pick up new gear/techniques from the military. That tradition has been flipped in quite a few areas.
-Jax
Rails do have a certain jury rigged feeling to them. Many accessories need an adapter so that they can be mounted to a rail. I think it will be some time before a standardized replacement will be developed.
Here is one direct mounting solution posted on Lightfighter
http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/9c74f816.jpg
http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/da9ddd07.jpg
If I were running a company supplying AR accessories, I would be developing a free float tube and rails made from carbon fiber or polymer
mkmckinley
05-20-12, 13:57
It seems like a lot of people/companies are moving away from the full blown quad rail design and for good reason. Whether the military does so on a broad scale is hard to predict but I don't think it will happen any time soon. For my weapons I go with a tube design. I like the Troy Alpha rail for it's light weight, simplicity and use of the USGI barrel but there are other on the market that look decent too. The move toward direct-mount is inevitable for things like forward grips and lights. You just don't need all the extra weight and complexity of a picatinny rail section for mounting something as simple as a grip. It would be awesome to see some industry standardization but who knows when that will happen.
I don't think Wilcox's battery powered rail will catch on any time soon. They want $2170 for them and the idea of having one battery that powers everything via the rail is flawed. If that single power source fails in any way then none of your stuff works. I like having a battery for every thing that needs a battery. The Wilcox rail with battery foregrip is heavy as shit, almost 20oz. They can keep it along with their $900 NODS mount.
I've handled the new Noveske rail and it's really nice and very light. I'd like to see how it does with heat but I use Troy's tube rails without issue so I don't expect any problems from the Noveske.
jonconsiglio
05-20-12, 14:02
I like tubular hand guards just fine, but I certainly do not see them making railed hand guards obsolete. I can't remember the last time I saw a respected firearms trainer besides Kyle lamb using one regularly (see them run on occasion, just not as a regular on their primary rifle) and of all the classes I attend, the training I do or the people I work with, I don't see all that many in comparison, though I still see a good bit.
Someday I'll do a build with an MFR, but there's a number of things I'm not sold on. So far, every one I've handled has heated up quite a bit more than my URX or RIS II's with just ladder covers or laRue index clips (not to mention KAC panels), but this was also in South Texas summer heat. Also, I use stubby vert grips and prefer them to slick rails. I'm not sure how well I like the way they attach to a tubular hand guard just yet. I'd love to see Tango Down come out with a tubular mounted version.
As for mounting accessories, I could get by just fine with a tubular hand guard. I can run Scout light in an IWC or Haley Strategic mount. Everything else will run on the top rail.
I'm debating on how to set up a 12.5" right now. I'm leaning towards a Centurion in a Kino set up, but I may give in and try the MFR. I'm not sold on their durability just yet (tubular hand guards in general), but the MFR seems to be at the top in that regard.
jonconsiglio
05-20-12, 14:05
Here is one direct mounting solution posted on Lightfighter
Didn't know you were a member. I was just reading through that thread today.
I just pieced together my first AR and I choose a DD Upper with the MFR 12 rail because out of inexperience and/or, I felt I did not need a quad rail hand guard. I really couldn't think what I would mount other than a grip and maybe a light some day. If I would have purchesed a quad, I would have installed rail covers which would add weight and really make all that space being covered useless.
The really cool thing about the Rainier handguard is that they incorporated a " Quick Detach" section that's removable instead of just throwing on another piece of picitanny. The DD MFR only comes with 3 rail sections, so I would need to attach an after market QD adapter to one of the rails.
I like tubular hand guards just fine, but I certainly do not see them making railed hand guards obsolete. I can't remember the last time I saw a respected firearms trainer besides Kyle lamb using one regularly (see them run on occasion, just not as a regular on their primary rifle) and of all the classes I attend, the training I do or the people I work with, I don't see all that many in comparison, though I still see a good bit.
Someday I'll do a build with an MFR, but there's a number of things I'm not sold on. So far, every one I've handled has heated up quite a bit more than my URX or RIS II's with just ladder covers or laRue index clips (not to mention KAC panels), but this was also in South Texas summer heat. Also, I use stubby vert grips and prefer them to slick rails. I'm not sure how well I like the way they attach to a tubular hand guard just yet. I'd love to see Tango Down come out with a tubular mounted version.
As for mounting accessories, I could get by just fine with a tubular hand guard. I can run Scout light in an IWC or Haley Strategic mount. Everything else will run on the top rail.
I'm debating on how to set up a 12.5" right now. I'm leaning towards a Centurion in a Kino set up, but I may give in and try the MFR. I'm not sold on their durability just yet (tubular hand guards in general), but the MFR seems to be at the top in that regard.
I think the first bolded part is due to the second bolded part. Kyle Defoor (and I believe Travis Haley) has been seen with the tube rails also, although I'm not sure if he's stayed with them, but Defoor's philosophy seems to be one of simplicity and light weight as possible (ounces turn in to pounds kind of thing...)
I, too, don't trust the durability yet, but the Noveske NSR seems to be one of the better ones with the barrel nut that they have. If the weight savings is more than about 8oz, and they get some accessories out for the rail itself, I will most likely be switching all my uppers to VIS NSRs when they come out...
polymorpheous
05-20-12, 15:37
Dick Swan is gonna sue for making the 1913 picatinny obsolete!
:sarcastic:
I like the direction things are going with modular handguards.
It's good to see someone attempt to set another industry standard.
I wish Noveske and Vltor luck with this.
The really cool thing about the Rainier handguard is that they incorporated a " Quick Detach" section that's removable instead of just throwing on another piece of picitanny. The DD MFR only comes with 3 rail sections, so I would need to attach an after market QD adapter to one of the rails.
No need to do that. Impact Weapon Components makes a direct mount sling QD for the MFR tube. I'm actually using none of the included rail sections on my V7.
No need to do that. Impact Weapon Components makes a direct mount sling QD for the MFR tube. I'm actually using none of the included rail sections on my V7.
I looked on the website and could not figure out which one you are referring to. Could you please tell us what style you are using and maybe a PIC for me..:)
Never mind.....I found it...thanks for the heads up BTW.
Rails do have a certain jury rigged feeling to them. Many accessories need an adapter so that they can be mounted to a rail. I think it will be some time before a standardized replacement will be developed.
Here is one direct mounting solution posted on Lightfighter
Wow. That is just...terrible. And now he'll have to buy a new rail once he figures out why that configuration is un-sat.
Not that direct mounting can't work or be a good idea, and he certainly seems to have executed it well from a mechanical perspective, but if you're going to do something permanent, it should probably make sense! But still, good concept.
Jester67CA
05-21-12, 17:34
I'm on team slick rail, especially with the Noveske NSR entering the market.
I can't think of a reason why a civilian would need a quad-rail over a configurable slick rail. At most he (usually) mounts BUIS, a light, and a fore grip/handstop.
Most quad rails I see are covered almost entirely by rail panels. It's always struck me as a bit odd. Some of them can get pretty heavy up front and can make it difficult to "hang on".
jonconsiglio
05-21-12, 17:52
I think the first bolded part is due to the second bolded part. Kyle Defoor (and I believe Travis Haley) has been seen with the tube rails also, although I'm not sure if he's stayed with them, but Defoor's philosophy seems to be one of simplicity and light weight as possible (ounces turn in to pounds kind of thing...)
I, too, don't trust the durability yet, but the Noveske NSR seems to be one of the better ones with the barrel nut that they have. If the weight savings is more than about 8oz, and they get some accessories out for the rail itself, I will most likely be switching all my uppers to VIS NSRs when they come out...
That's right, I've seen Defoor using them regularly... forgot about that. I saw Haley using one for the Panteo (sp?) videos, but all his others seem to be railed.
I'm just not there yet either. I'm having a hard time deciding on a 12.5". It will either be a Centurion mid length cutout or a Daniel Defense MFR. If there was a stubby vert grip from or like Tango Down's, it would be an easier decision.
I'm not a fan of quad rails because of the girth once you add panels and I have short fingers. However I like to shoot allot and every bare metal hand guard I've come across heats up way too much. Once you add panels to a tube your right back were you started and would be better off with the quad rail. I don't believe I should have to be tied to putting on gloves to use my rifles (although I do often use gloves training). I'd really like to see a direct mount panel for tubes that hugs the tube really closely.
I don't understand where the appeal in quad rails are, aside from the fact it is somewhat easier to move accessories around. Why do you need to do that in the field though? And if you do, shouldn't you have the rail section on there anyway?
A quad rail weighs at least 14 ounces (talking about full-length 11" rails here). A Troy Alpha/Noveske NSR (the 11" and shorter ones, at least) comes in under 12 ounces, and you don't need many, if any rail panels.
On a training or competition gun where weight is less of a factor (on a training gun it might be a good thing as additional heft will make your go-to gun feel lighter) a quad rail might be a good move. But ounces make pounds, and my gun is probably heavier than any one other item I'm carrying (excluding plate carrier). Anything I can do to mitigate that is saving me calories and keeping me in the fight longer. Admittedly, as a civilian it is unlikely any gunfight I might find myself in will last longer than five or perhaps ten seconds at most. But the proverb says "better to have it..." especially when we're talking about a defensive tool. Anyway, at 3am I'm fighting exhaustion, lethargy, sheets, two cats who will be in my way and total darkness. I won't be on my A-game, to sum it up. The gun shouldn't be any heavier than it must be.
This has been interesting seeing other peoples thoughts so here are my thoughts.
I have a Larue on my SBR, a PRI on my 6.8 and my MA-Ten is a Mono.
I purchased my SBR upper with the Larue on it and I absolutely love the rail. It is extremely easy to install and has a very slim profile. My 6.8 upper had a knurled alluminum FF tube and once I swapped out for a PRI I was glad I made the change. I can wrap my thumb over the top and grab on rail for a positive grip but don't have rails on the side under my palm pushing my hand further out. For my MA-Ten, I built it with the Mono set as they didn't have their slick Mono out at the time.
I did recently build a rifle for my brother's room mate and talked him into using a Rainier Evo rail. I had been eyeballing it for some time now and when I installed and handled it I'm sold. With the ability to move rails where needed, a user can tailor their set up how they see fit. I just shot a fellow NCO's AR with a Troy rail and same principle, different machining.
My 300BLK will most likely have a Rainier Evo unless I buy an upper outright. And if I do buy a pre made upper it will end up being an 9" AAC with the URX that has minimal amounts of rails. And once I do a 6.5 Creedmore upper I'll use the slick side Mono upper from Mega. I still have plans for doing a LW 14.5 upper and was wanting to use a Rainier but may use a Troy after running my buddy's.
In my opinion most civilians (and alot of Military) don't have need for a full quad rail. My first deployment I used a KAC VFG and ran a Surefire G2 in a cheapie mount. My last deployment I used a Surefire pistol grip weapon light and ran my PEQ15 on the top rail. On my 3 ARs above I run AFGs and thats about it. For my future builds on a 300BLK or 14.5 LW I'll give a handstop a try.
Having a FF Tube/Rail that extends over the GB has the advantage of farther out hand placement. That much additional rail and panels add weight that is unnecessary. I don't feel the Military will catch on for General Issue, but civies are open to what ever they want more or less. The validity of the tubes with sections has caught on with me.
I think the future will be more the the kac urx3. There is not really a need for all the rail space as the typical rail. It is just added weight.
Tomahawk_Ghost
05-21-12, 20:27
Excellent point man. Reminds me of all the guys I saw lose KAC panels while I was in the army.
I am curious to see where the military/LEO will go with handguards. The tradition for years was for civilian/competition shooters to pick up new gear/techniques from the military. That tradition has been flipped in quite a few areas.
-Jax
I think with arms development and tactics it has always gone back and forth.
Think about the weapons at the Little Big Horn. The U.S. Army was using the single shot Springfield carbine Model 1873. The Ordinance Dept. partly liked the rifle because of "efficient" use of ammunition. IE it wouldn't fire fast it saves money.
The Lakotas, Northern Cheyenne and Arapahos knew the value of firepower. A Winchester or Henry Rifle was a prized possession.
If you look at some of the B&W photos of Cowboys posing with their guns from 1872 to 1910 they were about firepower and speed.
The AR platform is moving toward lightweight and speed on target.
ffhounddog
05-21-12, 21:31
I cannot see the full DOD going the tube route. They will stick with quads for a long time unless they say everything will go here and there and no deviations. We are already being toLD where we can and cannot put our cco's.
Where does the RIS II/lite fit into this equation?
From the point of view of a strictly civilian shooter I actually think Hogue had an interesting idea with their overmolded free float tube.
It's basically you standard tube handguard with no rails, but it has hogue rubber molded over it so you don't need any kind of panel.
If they could just flesh out the idea a little more, add some removable rail sections for a light and BUIS, reduce the weight, they would have a great product.
Having said that, I use Troy VTAC tubes.
Would be interesting to see some flex testing and some high speed video of a full quad rail vs. the tube rails. Those of us that do not have a FSP may run into issues with the thinner, less rigid tube rails having a drifting front BUIS.
Heat - The full quad rails act as a heat sink, with more surface area to dissipate the barrel heat, and having more mass, take a bit longer to absorb enough heat to become uncomfortable.
Technology changes. It was not long ago that there was a scramble to come up with a small light that had a high output, down side was that the got wicked hot, and were battery pigs. Along comes CREE with a light emitter that doubles and triples the output, and battery life, without melting the housing.
Proprietary systems are all well and good, but getting the entire world of accessories to either pay up for the licensing to re tool for that mount, or those proprietary manufacturers to copy the lights, RDS, BUIS, grips and so on without patent infringement will be a challenge.
Single power source for all mounted accessories - as stated above, I'd rather keep my powered systems independent. Running wiring in and along the rifle to power the accessories runs the risk of failure, and positive/ground inlaid strips are subject to weather and environment. DC power sources can tolerate water and other conductive substances, but do drain the source. Losing 80% of my battery life while caught in the rain or getting covered in mud is not a good thing. We won't get into corrosion and electrolysis.
I personally will be one of the last converts to that type of system.
I'd really like to see a direct mount panel for tubes that hugs the tube really closely.
Like this?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1210147&postcount=62
Like this?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1210147&postcount=62
There not out yet though. As soon as they are i will have found my hand guard.:)
Awesome1228
05-22-12, 11:51
As a fairly new AR shooter, I have really liked the flexibility of a quad rail system. I have been able to play around with mounting locations for sling swivel, fore grips and lights. It has been easy to change from VFG to AFG and back to no fore grip. Now that I know what is comfortable and where I like things to be, I kind of think the rail is a pain. If I don't put rail covers on, it gets really hot and the rails tear up my hand. Adding covers is just one more thing I have to dick around with in order to find the right type for me. Experimenting with this kind of thing eats up dough that could be spent on ammo. I guess for more experienced AR shooters, the rail thing is probably on it's way out. Mount things where you know you like them, using a system that you know works for you. For people like me, the availability and variety of rail systems and rail mounted accessories is a great, easy way to learn what works.
As a fairly new AR shooter, I have really liked the flexibility of a quad rail system. I have been able to play around with mounting locations for sling swivel, fore grips and lights. It has been easy to change from VFG to AFG and back to no fore grip. Now that I know what is comfortable and where I like things to be, I kind of think the rail is a pain. If I don't put rail covers on, it gets really hot and the rails tear up my hand. Adding covers is just one more thing I have to dick around with in order to find the right type for me. Experimenting with this kind of thing eats up dough that could be spent on ammo. I guess for more experienced AR shooters, the rail thing is probably on it's way out. Mount things where you know you like them, using a system that you know works for you. For people like me, the availability and variety of rail systems and rail mounted accessories is a great, easy way to learn what works.
And that's one reason I why asked the intial question on where handguards are headed. The AR and accessory world is wildly changing all the time. Different gear, different shooting styles and techniques, alter the way we want to shoot. Which can alter the gear we purchase at times. If it can make you faster, more accurate with less wasted movement then I want to try within my own expense parameters.
Just a few years ago most people were shooting carbine length with a standard length handguard and the support arm tucked in. Now midlength is the rage and longer handguards help facilitate the support arm extending out further. People wanted a lighter forearm so companies like Troy came up with the tube rail.
I think because of all the excess gear thats been coming out , through listening to the right people/training and experience, people are figuring out they dont need all this stuff, like full length rails. Also just because the military runs it doesn't mean they have to either. Enter the next step in forearms, the bolt on tubular handguard.
The 'electric rail' doesn't look promising right now because off battery life and price point but who knows what'll happen.
-Jax
There not out yet though.
NSR handguards are out, G&R has them as well as a few other dealers. The panels are about done, I have some non textured panel samples on my desk right now...
The direct attach accessories that are coming for the KeyMod will make moving stuff around on the handguard or trying a different setup just as easy as rails. There won't immediately be as many accessories as there are for rails so you won't be able to try everything without the rail sections.
NSR handguards are out, G&R has them as well as a few other dealers. The panels are about done, I have some non textured panel samples on my desk right now...
The direct attach accessories that are coming for the KeyMod will make moving stuff around on the handguard or trying a different setup just as easy as rails. There won't immediately be as many accessories as there are for rails so you won't be able to try everything without the rail sections.
My NSR 11 rail is sitting on my porch as I type this, according to UPS tracking. Ordered it almost 2 weeks ago, LOL. It took an accidental round trip around the country. It was in my city, on a delivery truck a week ago "Out for delivery", got put in some "re-route" bin on the truck and sent to Kentucky somewhere and re-routed again. I've never seen a UPS tracking page as long as the one is for this package. Infuriating! Honestly thinking about ducking out of work right now and putting my hands on the package, so to speak.
Just goes to show, don't brag on the internets about your 11" NSR rail coming before anybody elses UNTIL IT'S IN YOUR HANDS! :eek:
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