View Full Version : Are comps a crutch?
I had a year long fling with a Battlecomp. I shot it exclusively, not having once picket up a uncompensated AR during that time. It worked well in keeping my muzzle on target during rapid fire -almost too well.
When I decided to put together my first SBR I was aware of the complaints other shooters had about the concussion from my BC. Knowing the shorter barrel would only make the concussion worse, I decided to go back to basics and stick with an A2. What I found is that after a year of shooting a compensated AR I had to spend several range sessions retraining myself to effectively control an uncompensated weapon during rapid fire.
This got me to wondering if using a compensated weapon was a good idea at all. After all, it is much easier to transition from an uncompensated weapon to a compensated weapon than vice versa. It certainly takes degree of skill to effectively control an uncompensated muzzle under rapid fire.
So, what do you think. Is a comp a crutch?
Is a nice trigger a crutch?
Is an optic a crutch?
Is a vertical grip a crutch?
Is an aftermarket grip a crutch?
Is a lighter profile barrel a crutch?
Is a short barrel a crutch?
Is open-tip ammo a crutch?
If it enables you to be faster on target or back on target, and have better hit accuracy why would it be a crutch? That question can be asked about any piece of aftermarket gear ever made. We'd all be using irons on out of the box Colt 20" HBARs.
If it enables you to be faster on target or back on target, and have better hit accuracy why would it be a crutch? That question can be asked about any piece of aftermarket gear ever made. We'd all be using irons on out of the box Colt 20" HBARs.
If you were to pick up a rifle without a comp, would you perform as well? What if the only rifle available to you were uncompensated and you had to deliver rounds on target in rapid succession, could you do it effectively? It certainly is something to think about unless all you are concerned about is gun games.
That's highly subjective. One who trains with a FH would perform as well as he does with a rifle without a comp. One who trains with a comp, naturally would have to adjust some and in turn, have his effectivity suffer.
This boils down to whatever you discover your needs are and what works for you.
ETA: definitely not a crutch, IMHO.
If you were to pick up a rifle without a comp, would you perform as well? What if the only rifle available to you were uncompensated and you had to deliver rounds on target in rapid succession, could you do it effectively? It certainly is something to think about unless all you are concerned about is gun games.
Who cares? What's the context? All of my weapons are gone? Magically vanished? I've been drafted and am in some sort of homeland war using gov-supplied M4's?
Try telling a 3gunner his comp is a crutch and he better go back to his split times before he used a comp. What's the context?
I don't get the question.
If I had to shoot an std. M4 compared to what I own and train with, yeah that would suck. I'd probably be a little slower / less effective with the std. M4.
Hypothetically, all else being equal, in your rapid-fire scenario, the best/fastest shooter in the world WILL be better/faster with a comp'd rifle. Ask any 3gunner if they could do what they do without a comp. they see a direct change in their splits with a comp. Seems pretty straight forward to me.
Who cares?
I care. If you don't, then don't spend the energy thinking about it.
If comps were ubiquitous there would be no issue. However, they are not.
If I had to shoot an std. M4 compared to what I own and train with, yeah that would suck. I'd probably be a little slower / less effective with the std. M4.
There is something to be said for having a rifle set up exactly the way you like it and I feel the same way to some extent. But going from a muzzle that controls itself for the most part to a muzzle which you must control is a different matter.
snackgunner
05-20-12, 08:53
I don't think if something better and more improved comes out, that makes it a crutch. It's only a crutch if you rely on it to become a better shooter. But if you already have all of the proper shooting fundamentals down and then you throw a battlecomp on your rifle and your time on target becomes much quicker and much faster, with the same level of accuracy then I see that as an improvement.
That's like saying if you go from a 16" carbine gas system, to a 16" midlength gas system and the midlength gas system feels smoother with less recoil, then it must be a crutch. If something better comes along and you want to upgrade your rifle, I don't think that's a crutch.
I think some people get 'crutch' and 'waste of money' mixed up. For instance if you shoot just as accurate and just as fast with a GI trigger as you do a Geiselle trigger, then why waste the money the $200 on the Geissele.
Is a nice trigger a crutch?
Is an optic a crutch?
Is a vertical grip a crutch?
Is an aftermarket grip a crutch?
Is a lighter profile barrel a crutch?
Is a short barrel a crutch?
Is open-tip ammo a crutch?
If it enables you to be faster on target or back on target, and have better hit accuracy why would it be a crutch? That question can be asked about any piece of aftermarket gear ever made. We'd all be using irons on out of the box Colt 20" HBARs.
Most every piece of after market equipment comes with a disadvantage as well. Some of them are miniscule (like an after market grip) some are worse (needing to carry extra batteries for optics.) It is always a trade off.
IMO the disadvantages of a compensator, at least the ones I have seen, far outweigh the advantages.
vicious_cb
05-20-12, 09:16
Try telling a 3gunner his comp is a crutch and he better go back to his split times before he used a comp. What's the context?
I don't get the question.
If I had to shoot an std. M4 compared to what I own and train with, yeah that would suck. I'd probably be a little slower / less effective with the std. M4.
Hypothetically, all else being equal, in your rapid-fire scenario, the best/fastest shooter in the world WILL be better/faster with a comp'd rifle. Ask any 3gunner if they could do what they do without a comp. they see a direct change in their splits with a comp. Seems pretty straight forward to me.
Recoil control is a technique issue. I can give a crap what the latest 3 gunners are using, if the extra blast is slapping me around when shooting around stuff or kicking up dust then its a no go for me. The OP made the right choice going back to the basics and relearning the fundamentals. Fundamentals first then you can go back add hardware that you think can improve your shooting.
The term "crutch" may be the most annoying overused term I see.
Are the power brakes and steering on your car a "crutch"??
If something helps you shoot better easier than use it.
If your fundamentals are sound there is no such thing as a "crutch"
No. If there is a noticeable difference in control over an AR w/o a comp, then you just improved your shooting style. Your non-comp AR will always have to be compensated for it’s muzzle climb when you shoot it. This you should already know.
No, a firearm is a crutch. You should just have a sword, or a knife, or maybe just a big stick... bare hands!
Bare hands and a loin cloth, then you can't be accused of using a crutch.
A compensator on a firearm is not a crutch it is a device with advantages and disadvantages.
Cameron
Bare hands and a loin cloth, then you can't be accused of using a crutch.
The loin cloth could be removed and used to strangle.
I think it depends on the context. Within the context of the military, a comp. is not standard equipment and therefore a crutch. Equating it to power brakes and steering seems to be a bit off since those are standard equipment. In a 3-gun competition maybe it's not a crutch.
Depends. If someone needs a comp to have acceptable muzzle control because they have very little or no skill in handling the rifle to control the muzzle then it is a crutch to achieve minimal standards. If they are to the point that they cannot improve them self or just have so little return that adding a comp is a final improvement then it is not.
Crutch or not there are plenty of reasons to use it or not to use it.
I don't think if something better and more improved comes out, that makes it a crutch. It's only a crutch if you rely on it to become a better shooter. But if you already have all of the proper shooting fundamentals down and then you throw a battlecomp on your rifle and your time on target becomes much quicker and much faster, with the same level of accuracy then I see that as an improvement.
Agreed. My issue with brakes/comps is that they have no place on an operational rifle. For a competition only gun where it's just the shooter and RO - have at it. In my mind they are in the same category as comps on pistols. In IPSC open class they are used for a reason. Most professionals aren't going to put one on a pistol that is carried on the street.
Yes.
I'll take every advantage I can so I use one.
For me, a compensator is the best 'cheat' I can do to my rifle if I want to shoot multiple things, at speed and accurately.
Are light weight polymer handgun frames vs steel?
Red Dot sights vs iron sights?
Higher capacity magazines vs single stack?
Night sights vs plain?
Yes it's a crutch. I'll take as many as I can get in order to put more rounds on target in the most effective way possible.
The argument is similar to optics when they first started becoming popular for use with in the military. Everyone was accustomed to iron sights, and the thought of putting a red dot optic was "unfair"
Who fights fair?
http://www.motifake.com/facebookview.php?id=59503
themighty9mm
05-20-12, 11:56
I think it kinda of depends. If your training gun or game gun is compensated but your duty gun is not, then you could potentially be asking for some trouble. Realistically how much trouble, I dont know. However if they (game gun and duty gun) are the same then its not a issue
Yes it's a crutch. I'll take as many as I can get in order to put more rounds on target in the most effective way possible.
The argument is similar to optics when they first started becoming popular for use with in the military. Everyone was accustomed to iron sights, and the thought of putting a red dot optic was "unfair"
Who fights fair?
http://www.motifake.com/facebookview.php?id=59503
So how does that comp work when you're shooting prone and kicking up five times as much dust? Or when your shooting from a building and your gun makes twice as much noise? Or when you're shooting at night and your gun strobes teh whole house or countryside? Or when you shoot in a hallway and earplugs plus muffs won't protect you?
You really think a fraction of a second on a shot to shot time is the end all of combat shooting?
Everything is a trade off
sinlessorrow
05-20-12, 12:13
This question was asked in the "ask a SME" section and the responses were pretty interesting.
that said I would take a flash hider over a comp any day, especially if your rifle may be used for HD. Comps will never be used by our military, hiding the flash of the rifles is a far greater tool than slightly faster split times.
You also cant really compare optics to comps. Optics have a clear advantage, they are faster, work in low light/no light, and some give you 4x magnification.
This is a complex question. For a new shooter having a hard time staying on target it might be. For an experienced competitor looking for that extra microsecond, no. Like many have said there is a trade off with everything. It's all about weighing pros and cons and determining what's right for you.
Its an add on for a tool. Not a crutch.
Upgrading brakes on a racecar doesnt make it "Cheating".
Its simply an enhacement for winning.
If you dont have a solid foundation for shooting, it wont make a difference.
For the guy that takes 3 seconds between shots, what difference is a compensator gonna make?
Littlelebowski
05-20-12, 14:36
I personally think it is a shortcut that masks inability in many shooters.
I was considering one (and still am from time to time) so I asked Failure2Stop regarding his thoughts on comps/brakes.
A shooter shouldn't worry about a comp until he can pass a half and half drill on demand.
I see a lot of folks here trying to make comparisons between comps and other pieces of equipment. Unfortunatly most of those comparisons are apples to oranges comparisons.
Items like VDGs still require firm fundamentals, they simply change the dynamic of the ergonomics in relation to the shooter. Not a big fan of match triggers myself(unless in long range precision guns), but even they still need to be pulled correctly in accordance with the fundamentals to work correctly.
Comps, on the other hand, make shooters lazy by making it easy for shooters to ignore the fundamentals of having a solid shooting platform to control the gun and obtain quicker followup shots.
Let's understand some things here. Match triggers really shine in longer range shooting. They help remove some of the variables that are caused BY THE TRIGGER (excessive creep, over travel, etc.). If someone doesn't pull the trigger correctly to begin with, at 800 meters, it won't matter what kind of trigger you have, you'll still miss.
VFG's are merely about comfort and getting a better grip on the gun for the INDIVIDUAL SHOOTER. Some folks run naked rails perfectly fine and others prefere a different feel. Same thing with aftermarket pistol grips. But, regardless of whatever forearm you have, if you don't have the fundamentals of how to create a stable shooting platform and the fundamentals of how to control your weapon to obtain quick follow up shots, not VFG is going to magically make this happen.
Comps on the other hand, remove much of the feedback that a rifle normally gives a shooter such as muzzle rise, recoil, etc. They remove the necessity to control your muzzle as there is now something else there doing it for you.
Now here's the kicker. Comps have their place in competition where timed scores are the goal. Guys who use comps in professional competition still perform the fundamentals becuase the truth is that people who ensure their use of both the fundamentals AND all of the neat dohickeys on their guns, are the ones who win.
Most shooters though, never push themselves to those extremes, and unfortunatly, they don't understand that when they use a piece of equipment to correct for a function that they should still always be correcting for themselves, the tendency is to slowly move away from compensating for that dynamic.
In other words, comps make most shooters lazy. Even shooters who like to train and really like to learn how to run their guns.
About the only ones i've ever seen that don' fall into this lazy mindset are the top level shooters who do it for a living. If you lined up an array of different AR's with all sorts of different accessories, in front of Chris Costa, the dude would be able to hammer through every single one of those guns and shoot them all with nearly identical results.
Most other shooters, especially ones who spend a lot of time with a single gun in a specific setup, will find themselves in the same boat as the OP when presented with something different.
In all honesty, so long as a shooter understands this dynamic and applies it appropriatly, I don't think that comps are a bad thing necessarily. So long as you're not shooting them next to me that is.
But, if you're like 99% of the shooters out there and Don't realize that your body is subconsiously adjusting to this lack of feedback, you'll experience the same issues as the OP and find that in the long run, comps will be more of a crutch then a blessing.
Once again, it all boils down to the shooter.
I mainly shot with a SureFire brake for the past couple months and I noticed I had become much lazier after I removed it on my main carbine last week. The first shot I fired without a comp surprised me with the muzzle drift. Obviously after that I was fine, but I had to make a conscious effort to correct my technique and I had to think about it. (Something I would prefer not to have to do if I picked up a weapon to save a life.)
ETA: D'oh, Grumpy beat me to it in the above!
I see a lot of folks here trying to make comparisons between comps and other pieces of equipment. Unfortunatly most of those comparisons are apples to oranges comparisons.
Items like VDGs still require firm fundamentals, they simply change the dynamic of the ergonomics in relation to the shooter. Not a big fan of match triggers myself(unless in long range precision guns), but even they still need to be pulled correctly in accordance with the fundamentals to work correctly.
Comps, on the other hand, make shooters lazy by making it easy for shooters to ignore the fundamentals of having a solid shooting platform to control the gun and obtain quicker followup shots.
Let's understand some things here. Match triggers really shine in longer range shooting. They help remove some of the variables that are caused BY THE TRIGGER (excessive creep, over travel, etc.). If someone doesn't pull the trigger correctly to begin with, at 800 meters, it won't matter what kind of trigger you have, you'll still miss.
VFG's are merely about comfort and getting a better grip on the gun for the INDIVIDUAL SHOOTER. Some folks run naked rails perfectly fine and others prefere a different feel. Same thing with aftermarket pistol grips. But, regardless of whatever forearm you have, if you don't have the fundamentals of how to create a stable shooting platform and the fundamentals of how to control your weapon to obtain quick follow up shots, not VFG is going to magically make this happen.
Comps on the other hand, remove much of the feedback that a rifle normally gives a shooter such as muzzle rise, recoil, etc. They remove the necessity to control your muzzle as there is now something else there doing it for you.
Now here's the kicker. Comps have their place in competition where timed scores are the goal. Guys who use comps in professional competition still perform the fundamentals becuase the truth is that people who ensure their use of both the fundamentals AND all of the neat dohickeys on their guns, are the ones who win.
Most shooters though, never push themselves to those extremes, and unfortunatly, they don't understand that when they use a piece of equipment to correct for a function that they should still always be correcting for themselves, the tendency is to slowly move away from compensating for that dynamic.
In other words, comps make most shooters lazy. Even shooters who like to train and really like to learn how to run their guns.
About the only ones i've ever seen that don' fall into this lazy mindset are the top level shooters who do it for a living. If you lined up an array of different AR's with all sorts of different accessories, in front of Chris Costa, the dude would be able to hammer through every single one of those guns and shoot them all with nearly identical results.
Most other shooters, especially ones who spend a lot of time with a single gun in a specific setup, will find themselves in the same boat as the OP when presented with something different.
In all honesty, so long as a shooter understands this dynamic and applies it appropriatly, I don't think that comps are a bad thing necessarily. So long as you're not shooting them next to me that is.
But, if you're like 99% of the shooters out there and Don't realize that your body is subconsiously adjusting to this lack of feedback, you'll experience the same issues as the OP and find that in the long run, comps will be more of a crutch then a blessing.
Once again, it all boils down to the shooter.
This is similar to the argument I make about learning to shoot with iron sights before switching to an optic. I feel optics allow a shooter to be lazier with fundamentals than iron sights do. Yet, in my experience, optics do allow a shooter to see improvements to their shooting. I also realize that lazy fundamentals come back to haunt the shooter when attempting faster shots or more precise shots.
Can you explain the difference comparing a comp vs birdcage and irons vs RDS? Or are the two comparisons similar in this case? For my consideration, I would like to hear your take on this
PRGGodfather
05-20-12, 17:32
Some questions for this question on this lazy Sunday:
Why bother developing new technologies?
If there was only one top trainer, who would it be? Would this person be qualified to teach all mission skillsets?
Is the military mission the only one to consider?
How do we define "need?"
How do we define "operational?" Where are we operating? Does suburban or urban America differ from Mogadishu?
Is the military mission the same as the domestic LE mission?
What role does competition and 3-gun play with respect to technological development?
Should we have stopped at the M16A1 standard carry handle and with three prong flash hider?
Should we use only M16A2 models and insist people use the just Harries technique for handheld flashlight deployment, too?
Should the flattop and Picatinny rail features be limited to only those off-duty military folks who may need them in foreign combat?
Should these off-duty military folks be barred from exploring other technologies or training regimens, for fear they will get lazy?
Should we cease ammunition engineering development for terminal ballistic performance due to foreign treaty agreements and other accords?
Should we limit our firearms purchases to just the M9 and M16 so as not to disrupt our military manual of arms?
Are we forbidden or unable to use different tools for different situations?
Must we all agree in all such perspectives to establish a groupthink validation?
America is great because we can have a difference of opinion. I will continue to defend that right, to the death.
Thanks for letting me overanalyze this Sunday, too.
BufordTJustice
05-20-12, 17:33
I have a comp on my HD carbine. Does that mean i'm COMPENSATING for poor shooting technique? ;)
In all seriousness aside, let's take the 'Inexperienced shooter' angle out of the argument. Panzer is not without his time on the gun.
If a comp helps me kill my enemy faster, why is it bad?
I had an LT who always said that if you ended up in a fair fight, you ****ed up.
Using m855 and m193, an A2 belches flames that I have seen from 400 yards. It still kicks up dust. It's still going to make you deaf if fired inside a structure.
Shitty fundamentals aside, I haven't heard but one or two mildly compelling reasons to not use a comp if one prefers to employ one.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
Can you explain the difference comparing a comp vs birdcage and irons vs RDS? Or are the two comparisons similar in this case? For my consideration, I would like to hear your take on this
For starters, Birdcages are meant to hide flash primarily from the shooter, not necessarily from the target, nor do they do much of anything comp-wise, even A2 bridcages. The A2 birdcage was made to reduce dust signature in front of a prone shooter so their target would not be obscured for follow-up shots and to also not create a large dust signature that the enemy could easily spot. If it has any comp properties, they were pretty much unintentional I think.
Most non-comp muzzle devices are made to mask the flash, either from the shooter or in extreme cases such as the vortex, from the target as well. Muzzle control is still left to the shooter.
Regarding red dot sights, I believe this falls under a similar banner as match triggers. If a shooter doesn't have the fundamentals down an RDS won't make them a better shooter, nor will it allow quicker follow up shots.
I personally believe that Irons should be mastered first simply because they do not require a battery and when a scope fails, the shooter will have to rely on the irons, so they had better be able to use them.
I suppose that an RDS could result in a shooter becoming somewhat lazy in some aspects, mostly in cheekweld/stable shooting platform, but at the same time, anybody who says that an RDS is a precision shooting instrument is fooling themselves. RDS' are meant primarily for quick engagements, limited target avalibility, and going fast.
While RDS' *can* be used sucessfully out to seme distance, and have been, they really shine in close in fighting such as MOUT, CQB, etc. or as the brits would call it, FISH (Fighting In Someones House).
But, like with the comps and my example of competition shooters, the winners are the ones who use the tech AND the fundamentals at the same time.
Because of this, I always do at least a small portion of any training or practice that I do with Iron sights to ensure that I still maintain my proficiency, but at the same time, I use my Aimpoints heavily the rest of the time. I also practice/train exclusivly with half sized targets as well.
That being said, my primary belief of having people master irons rests mostly with the understanding that optics fail, rather then because I believe that one cannot be a good shooter unlesss they master irons first.
People can learn, understand, and apply the fundamentals just fine with an RDS, and depending on the type of shooting they do, they must do this if they wish to be successfull. Therefore, in my mind, the use of RDS' does not preclude the ability to master the fundamental basics while using them.
Under some circumstances RDS' do have the ability (to a lesser extent then with comps) to lead to some laziness depending on the type of shooting being done depnding on the shooter and their understanding of what is happening. Meaning that dirt shooters will tend to be a lazy lot of ****s, whereas people who train with RDS' and regularly practice out to 200 and 300 meters will still be proficient. This is really a function of training and the type of training engaged in moreso then the accessories on the gun.
In essence though, the bottom line is that with all accessories, the onerous ALWAYS falls back on the shooter. It's sorta like the gun control debate. Blaming the tool for shitty construction is like blaming the spoon for rosie being a lard-ass. In the case of comps though, they remove so much feedback that it's easier for non-professional shooters to lose a certian edge off of their skillset.
On that note, being good at anything requires feedback to learn from. Use innaccurate ammunition and you'll never know if you're doing things right with a precision long range rifle. If you have a blade of shitty steel that doesn't hold an edge, you'll never know if your skills as a swordsman are increasing as you won't ever be making good cuts. If you use a base model dodge neon to try and learn how to drive formula 1, guess how good of a driver you're going to be. In all examples listed, the introduction of better technologies and higher quality equipment helps the professionals perform better, but ONLY if they master and then continue to apply the fundamentals while using the new tech.
If those same professionals start letting the tech do all the work because they no longer get the same feedback, then they will not ever be in the winners box. It really is that simple.
Some questions for this question on this lazy Sunday:
Why bother developing new technologies?
If there was only one top trainer, who would it be? Would this person be qualified to teach all mission skillsets?
Is the military mission the only one to consider?
How do we define "need?"
How do we define "operational?" Where are we operating? Does suburban or urban America differ from Mogadishu?
Is the military mission the same as the domestic LE mission?
What role does competition and 3-gun play with respect to technological development?
Should we have stopped at the M16A1 standard carry handle and with three prong flash hider?
Should we use only M16A2 models and insist people use the just Harries technique for handheld flashlight deployment, too?
Should the flattop and Picatinny rail features be limited to only those off-duty military folks who may need them in foreign combat?
Should these off-duty military folks be barred from exploring other technologies or training regimens, for fear they will get lazy?
Should we cease ammunition engineering development for terminal ballistic performance due to foreign treaty agreements and other accords?
Should we limit our firearms purchases to just the M9 and M16 so as not to disrupt our military manual of arms?
Are we forbidden or unable to use different tools for different situations?
Must we all agree in all such perspectives to establish a groupthink validation?
America is great because we can have a difference of opinion. I will continue to defend that right, to the death.
Thanks for letting me overanalyze this Sunday, too.
A whole lotta apples to hand-grenades comparisons there, but, like you said, to each his own.
Over analyze away! :-)
BufordTJustice
05-20-12, 17:42
Also, if I am forced to face off against a shooter of equal skill, and my opponent has a comp.....well, the warm fuzzy I had about having more sound fundamentals won't keep me alive. Speed and accuracy will.
So gimme my aimpoint, my vfg, my bcm mod1 grip, my vltor EMOD, my geissele SD-C, my vltor A5, my TLR1s, my bcm 14.5" middy, and my FSC556. Cuz i'm gonna be cheating like a mother****er.
I fight to win.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
You could argue a comp is a crutch, but you could argue that for damn near anything else.... Scopes are a crutch for people not good enough to shoot at distance with irons too, right?
Give yourself EVERY advantage, there's no reason not to.
Interestingly, military manuals refer to the A2 birdcage as a "compensator"
There are many good thoughts here.
My primary concern is growing dependent on a single piece of kit. What happens when that kit is suddenly no longer available, for whatever reason? That's why I train with Irons and Red Dots. Standard triggers and high speed Geissele triggers. Railed weapons and unrailed weapons. Maybe the thing to do would be to have different muzzle devices on different rifles and switch between them periodically.
BufordTJustice
05-20-12, 17:57
I think this is a perfect example of the Nirvana Fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy
If somebody with solid fundamentals chooses to use a quality comp (not a 3gun design) like a BC, FSC556 (my fav), the new BCM comp, etc.....then there can be merit in their decision.
Just because one person prefers a comp and another does not is not evidence that one is correct and one is incorrect.
Again, on an equal playing field of solid shooting fundamentals, this is going to be driven largely by shooter preference.
Demeaning the preference of the shooter does not make one right.
PRGGodfather
05-20-12, 17:58
A whole lotta apples to hand-grenades comparisons there, but, like you said, to each his own.
Over analyze away! :-)
Agreed. Kind of the point. There is never a monopoly for such questions -- and other than the freedom to choose comment -- all we did is ask questions -- like we all have the right to do.
Definitely NOT trying to force a perspective down anyone's throat. Not our style, not our mission, and not our practice. Simply, some folks don't have the legal option of a flash hider. Some states only allow a brake or a compensator, which are not the same thing, either. And for a lot of us, comps are just plain FUN.
We're as guilty of over-analysis as the next guy. We're willing to admit it.
Have a great weekend, brother.
BufordTJustice
05-20-12, 18:00
There are many good thoughts here.
My primary concern is growing dependent on a single piece of kit. What happens when that kit is suddenly no longer available, for whatever reason? That's why I train with Irons and Red Dots. Standard triggers and high speed Geissele triggers. Railed weapons and unrailed weapons. Maybe the thing to do would be to have different muzzle devices on different rifles and switch between them periodically.
I actually do this....but I also do not find that I have 'lost' any fundamentals when I transition back to a gun with an A2 and a carbine gas system....I just can't quite go as fast on the shot timer. I'm fighting physics and I have less leverage. There is the tradeoff.
With no sarcasm at all, if one has lost their primary gun, shit has gone sideways in a very serious and distinct manner.
I should state that I do not practice on a colt single action army or S&W K-frame to bolster my fundamentals on my agency issue G21. I just learn to run the G21 as hard as I can.
PRGGodfather
05-20-12, 18:06
I actually do this....but I also do not find that I have 'lost' any fundamentals when I transition back to a gun with an A2 and a carbine gas system....I just can't quite go as fast on the shot timer. I'm fighting physics and I have less leverage. There is the tradeoff.
With no sarcasm at all, if one has lost their primary gun, shit has gone sideways in a very serious and distinct manner.
I should state that I do not practice on a colt single action army or S&W K-frame to bolster my fundamentals on my agency issue G21. I just learn to run the G21 as hard as I can.
Yup.
I train hard with my issued G21SF, as often as the agency mandates. For my extra training, since most agency training is wholly insufficient; I shoot my G19 in 9mm since I pay for my own classes and ammo.
Hope I'm not screwing things up too bad.
And I still like my Colt 1873 in .45 LC, because I like it. Sometimes, I even change gears on my bicycle. ;)
So, to answer the Poll for me: "It really depends on the user."
If a comp helps me kill my enemy faster, why is it bad?
If you are shooting said enemies outdoors, alone, in daylight it probably isn't bad.
But in a structure, in a vehicle, at night, in the prone, or around other friendlies, it is a problem. It will be counter productive to you and your teammates.
No, they arent.
End of thread.
BufordTJustice
05-20-12, 19:05
If you are shooting said enemies outdoors, alone, in daylight it probably isn't bad.
But in a structure, in a vehicle, at night, in the prone, or around other friendlies, it is a problem. It will be counter productive to you and your teammates.
Explain. I have done all those.
Also, when i'm at home, I won't have any teammates.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
If you can't shoot without one, its a crutch, but I hardly see that as a possibility.
Poor shooting techniques are seldom made better through equipment, but solid shooters reap benefits through equipment on a regular basis.
There is no point in debating the generic merits of a comp, as it is up to the individual shooter to determine what works best for their own situation(s).
If you can't shoot without one, its a crutch, but I hardly see that as a possibility.
Poor shooting techniques are seldom made better through equipment, but solid shooters reap benefits through equipment on a regular basis.
There is no point in debating the generic merits of a comp, as it is up to the individual shooter to determine what works best for their own situation(s).
You make a good point. I don't think I've seen a poor shooter yet that got better due to adding a comp or better trigger. If their fundamentals are still flawed they will still have issues
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
Personally I've never noticed the difference, but then again I've never shot well enough to notice the diff.
I shoot my Battlecomp prone all of the time and have not had problems of it kicking up dust.
I would imagine most M4C members have at least some plan to use thier rifle with or without the compensator as a home defense rifle. In combat there is no cheating, there is no advantage you should not be looking to exploit, nor weekeness of the adversary. That being the case, a "crutch" is non existant. There is only that which makes you more effective or less effective, and there is nearly always going to be a trade off. You have to decide individually if that trade off is worth it. But there is no such thing as a crutch in defensive use of a weapon.
Generalpie
05-21-12, 02:17
If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
Nothing that will make you more likely to win is a crutch.
Preliator has a great point that everything has tradeoffs. It is up to each individual to decide what is their "best" set up.
Being new to the AR realm, when I was planning my first build, I was looking into adding on the comp, high end trigger and such.
I received a profound and unanimous "NO! - Learn to shoot the standard trigger and A2 first". Not too much emphasis was put on the BUIS, other than to make sure I got a quality set, and go with a quality RDS.
I it a crutch - no, it's an enhancement. As mentioned earlier, learn to shoot and control stock components first (basic fundamentals - riding a bike), then upgrade if you desire.
I've attended 2 carbine classes in my 5 months of AR shooting - both considered advanced. An Appleseed course is in my future because I still can not shoot irons for shit. Never have been able to (might be a vision thing).
Explain. I have done all those.
Also, when i'm at home, I won't have any teammates.
If a shooter uses a brake/comp on a rifle, especially a short barreled rifle, in those conditions it will be unnecessarily loud. The muzzle flash will light up everyone and take the shooter’s night vision. Even if wearing ear pro, the shooter will still feel the concussion and it can distract the shooter and people around him. In my view there are far too many drawbacks to using one that any benefit of better control is outweighed. Besides, I’ve seen enough shooters who have the skill with a rifle, that they can use an A2 and run circles around folks with the latest/greatest muzzle device.
As far as being at home and not having any teammates… it still won’t be much fun shooting in an enclosed hallway or room. What if there isn’t time to don Peltors or whatever?
But don’t take my word for it. Here are comments from an SME/instructor, and from people (all LEO’s) who used these devices and realize now their folly.
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/458100756/m/50020103963
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=103993
Here is a more vivid example: (from the RB1 FB page)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/416545_416741471669465_201698463173768_1602391_1698536988_o.jpg
Bottom line – do what works for you. I’m not your boss, and I don’t have to line up with you in the stack. If your coworkers are okay with whatever you run – great. My advice is worth precisely what you paid for it. Lol! But for where I work, if a squad mate showed up with a compensator or muzzle brake on his or her rifle… he or she would be stuck in the CP or on perimeter until it was replaced with something more appropriate for the task.
Clobbersauras
05-21-12, 11:50
You lost me here:
When I decided to put together my first SBR I was aware of the complaints other shooters had about the concussion from my BC.
That would be the last reason why I would stop using a muzzle brake.
If a shooter uses a brake/comp on a rifle, especially a short barreled rifle, in those conditions it will be unnecessarily loud. The muzzle flash will light up everyone and take the shooter’s night vision. Even if wearing ear pro, the shooter will still feel the concussion and it can distract the shooter and people around him. In my view there are far too many drawbacks to using one that any benefit of better control is outweighed. Besides, I’ve seen enough shooters who have the skill with a rifle, that they can use an A2 and run circles around folks with the latest/greatest muzzle device.
As far as being at home and not having any teammates… it still won’t be much fun shooting in an enclosed hallway or room. What if there isn’t time to don Peltors or whatever?
But don’t take my word for it. Here are comments from an SME/instructor, and from people (all LEO’s) who used these devices and realize now their folly.
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/458100756/m/50020103963
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=103993
Here is a more vivid example: (from the RB1 FB page)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/416545_416741471669465_201698463173768_1602391_1698536988_o.jpg
Bottom line – do what works for you. I’m not your boss, and I don’t have to line up with you in the stack. If your coworkers are okay with whatever you run – great. My advice is worth precisely what you paid for it. Lol! But for where I work, if a squad mate showed up with a compensator or muzzle brake on his or her rifle… he or she would be stuck in the CP or on perimeter until it was replaced with something more appropriate for the task.
So in essence, said squadmate just got a pass? Sounds like he won the possible gunfight without ever firing a shot. :)
Failure2Stop
05-21-12, 13:03
This is highly dependant on the individual user, operating environment and circumstance, as well as the individual user's definition of "crutch".
To me, a crutch is something that allows a user to perform at a low-mediocre level, that when removed causes the user to perform at an unacceptable/sub-standard level.
In my opinon, a comp is not a "crutch" if the shooter can already perform at a high level and simply wants an edge, in which case: no, the comp is NOT a crutch but rather a means to an end.
Technique first, then technology.
That being said, there are negative aspects to all compensators that a user should be aware of and take into account before making it a piece of first-line gear. Different comps have varying degrees of these draw-backs to give the shooter recoil reduction and redirection. Some users are happy to deal with these issues, some users are not, and some don't know how significant (or minor) internet criticisms are until they actually use one. The same can be said for any alteration of the base platform.
I think that there is a great deal of wisdom in owning a bone stock 6920 (or similar) and gaining real proficiency with it as is, and to test each alteration against it before decreeing any item the best thing since internet porn.
this debate is still going on? With all this talk about muzzle blast and noise and bs, it seems there are too many people who don't know what the term "using something as a crutch" really means. :lol:
If you can't shoot without one, it's a crutch.
If you can shoot without one, but choose to use one anyway for its added benefits, then it's an ENHANCEMENT.
I really don't see the need for a comp. I don't have any problems with controlling with a standard one
this debate is still going on? With all this talk about muzzle blast and noise and bs, it seems there are too many people who don't know what the term "using something as a crutch" really means. :lol:
If you can't shoot without one, it's a crutch.
If you can shoot without one, but choose to use one anyway for its added benefits, then it's an ENHANCEMENT.
Wish it were that easy.
Some folks who do know how to shoot find themselves having to re-learn on a "standard" weapon after using a comped weapon for an extended period of time.
Hence, crutch for those who let the comp do too much of the work.
Also a crutch for those who do not have the fundamentals mastered.
Enhancement for those who have the fundamentals down, and continue to apply them.
Wish it were that easy.
Some folks who do know how to shoot find themselves having to re-learn on a "standard" weapon after using a comped weapon for an extended period of time.
Hence, crutch for those who let the comp do too much of the work.
Also a crutch for those who do not have the fundamentals mastered.
Enhancement for those who have the fundamentals down, and continue to apply them.
If "relearning" takes more than one mag, you're doing it wrong. :rolleyes:
If "relearning" takes more than one mag, you're doing it wrong. :rolleyes:
As with everything, depends on the person.
The fact that it needs to be re-learned at all is the issue.
I prefer that instructors don't use compensators, as it undermines their demonstrations (unless all of the students have comps as well).
Everyone else should do whatever they want. I can't blame anyone for taking the more economical approach of purchasing a muzzle device rather than the obscene amount of ammo necessary to achieve the same level of performance.
BufordTJustice
05-22-12, 03:09
If a shooter uses a brake/comp on a rifle, especially a short barreled rifle, in those conditions it will be unnecessarily loud.
Please back this up with facts. I spent a decade in pro-audio before becoming an LEO. ANY AR, regardless of barrel length, is going to be mid-160's in the decibel range. That's permanent hearing damage from ANY barrel length, regardless of muzzle device. Facts please.
The muzzle flash will light up everyone and take the shooter’s night vision.
Again, with what ammo? What muzzle device? What barrel length?
Even if wearing ear pro, the shooter will still feel the concussion and it can distract the shooter and people around him.
There many more important 'distractions' than muzzle blast....like receiving fire. If you are worried about muzzle blast, DON'T STACK UP, BRO. Also, a 12g firing 00buck from a SBS Remmy 870 is MUCH louder than any AR I've heard. If your head is in gear, you can do what you need to. Period.
In my view there are far too many drawbacks to using one that any benefit of better control is outweighed. Besides, I’ve seen enough shooters who have the skill with a rifle, that they can use an A2 and run circles around folks with the latest/greatest muzzle device.
Apples to oranges. The same shooter on a non-comp'd rifle will be FASTER and more effective in terms of ROF and rapid-fire-accuracy on a comp'd gun. Every time.
As far as being at home and not having any teammates… it still won’t be much fun shooting in an enclosed hallway or room. What if there isn’t time to don Peltors or whatever?
You're gonna be deaf either way. If somebody kicks in my front door, I'm not ****ing with ear-pro; I'm much more worried about getting set-up to defend myself and my wife.
But don’t take my word for it. Here are comments from an SME/instructor, and from people (all LEO’s) who used these devices and realize now their folly.
Two words: Travis Haley. But he doesn't know shit, now does he?
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/458100756/m/50020103963
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=103993
Here is a more vivid example: (from the RB1 FB page)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/416545_416741471669465_201698463173768_1602391_1698536988_o.jpg
One pic bro. ONe pic. No barrel length info. No gun info. No ammo info. No camera F-stop info. Nothing. Just a pic. I can make my G21 using Speer 200gr Gold Dot's look almost the same if you give me a DSLR and some time. Doesn't mean anything. My gun doesn't look ANYTHING like that in total darkness using Federal 556TNB1 (mk318 62gr) from my BCM 14.5" middy and FSC556.
Bottom line – do what works for you. I’m not your boss, and I don’t have to line up with you in the stack. If your coworkers are okay with whatever you run – great.
My co-workers are just fine with what I run. Don't you go gettin' too worried about them. :rolleyes:
My advice is worth precisely what you paid for it. Lol! But for where I work, if a squad mate showed up with a compensator or muzzle brake on his or her rifle… he or she would be stuck in the CP or on perimeter until it was replaced with something more appropriate for the task.
So, you mean to tell me that, if we met, we wouldn't get along. Shocker. ;)
The main thing that prevents our entry teams from using newer muzzle devices (including true flash hiders like the AAC blackout) is institutional inertia. What will you do when most specialty teams use some form of comp/brake on their entry guns in ten-fifteen years? The same argument you're making now was made ten-fifteen years ago about red dot optics. And the only reason you've given me is that you just don't like comps for social work. Which is fine.
I have said repeatedly that it's going to be user preference for a proficient shooter. You have repeatedly chosen to make 'the cool kid' argument. That's fine as well, but I'm not going to cal anybody dumb or ignorant for choosing a comp. That would mean I'm calling people like Chris Costa, Travis Haley, Mike Pannone, and Pat Rogers ignorant or dumb. I think a little more of them than that. So do others here.
Just because another shooter determines that they like a setup that is different from yours doe snot make them inferior. I say: let them choose, free of the pressure from 'the cool kids'.
You lost me here:
That would be the last reason why I would stop using a muzzle brake.
Have you ever fired an SBR with any type of comp? It isn't pleasant for the shooter and anyone standing nearby even with double hearing protection.
Think outside the box for a moment. If shooting a comp increases the concussion to the shooter and anyone near him, what do you suppose it would be like to fire one without hearing protection? Would it be harder or easier on your ears? Now imagine your wife and dog and kid are nearby and you have to put someone down. Would you rather have a comp or a standard muzzle brake?
But that's besides the point.
It seems like the general consensus is that a comp is a crutch if you don't maintain the ability to fire quickly and effectively without one.
So, those of you that shoot comps and voted "no", how to do you avoid the laziness that can set in using a comp? How do you maintain your skills with a standard muzzle device? Are you switching to a different rifle from time to time to stay sharp? Do you do some gee whiz shit or are you just hoping to be just as good with any other device? Or do you not give a crap and assume you will always have access to your comp'd weapon?
militarymoron
05-22-12, 09:02
So, those of you that shoot comps and voted "no", how to do you avoid the laziness that can set in using a comp? How do you maintain your skills with a standard muzzle device? Are you switching to a different rifle from time to time to stay sharp? Do you do some gee whiz shit or are you just hoping to be just as good with any other device? Or do you not give a crap and assume you will always have access to your comp'd weapon?
i'm not sure what 'laziness' you're referring to. when i shoot, i apply exactly the same techniques; comp or not. i make the same effort to control the rifle, get a good sight picture, trigger control, stance etc. i'm always pushing myself to make the 2nd shot quicker, with the required accuracy, for applicable drills, no matter what gun i'm shooting.
the only difference is in the end result - the comp'd gun moves less so the follow up shot is faster. that's going to be true for any experienced shooter, shooting a non comp'd vs. comp'd weapon.
same thing when shooting an AK or .308 vs an AR - split times are obviously slower, but i'm applying the same principles to shoot the different weapons as fast as i can, accurately, for each one (if that's the drill).
if you're always pushing yourself, comp or no comp, you're not going to get lazy. i'll only get lazy when i'm faster or more accurate than i want to be, and that has never happened before (and i doubt will ever happen). looking at my target is the best incentive for me to put in the effort. every time i look at my own target, i think: "i can do better the next time".
One of my favorite instructors once said that "if you need a comp for a .223, then you need to hit the gym." :D
From a defensive/tactical standpoint, MB/Comps are a no go for no other reason than they produce a large ball of flame.
For me, I see them as a tool for gun games, BUT only if you are towards the top of the competitors. Meaning that if you are middle to bottom, a MB/Comp isn't going to save you and you need more time working on the fundamentals and not spending time on gear.
With the above out of the way, I DO run a SF MB on my SBR for the sole reason that it improves the longevity of my can. If I wasn't using a can, I would never run a MB/Comp.
C4
Are we talking rounds to the chest or rounds to a paper target and some guy holding a timer.
As with everything, depends on the person.
The fact that it needs to be re-learned at all is the issue.
It's not "re-learning" though. It's either learning something you never learned in the first place, or merely recalibrating for a different platform. It's no different than going from an unsuppressed to suppressed platform, lightweight barrel profile to medium, 5.56 to 6.8 or 7.62, irons to RDS or RDS to magnified optic, etc. All of them require a recalibration in how fast you work the gun.
Personally, I use a 14.5" lightweight with a pinned BattleComp 1.5. I can move this gun VERY fast and get good hits at speed. The BC "compensates" for the lack of weight out front on follow up shots. Between the weight reduction and flat recoil profile, the advantage is significant. An advantage isn't a crutch, it's a tool in the toolbox.
If I happen to not have that tool, I'll grab another tool and make do within it's capabilities. It doesn't matter whether it's a non-comped AR, a Winchester 30-30 or a Mosin-Nagant. If you're a good shooter, you're a good shooter. Using a comp doesn't make you less so. :(
Here is a article by Bennie Cooley on the subject
http://www.benniecooley.com/articles/ApplyingTheBrakes.pdf
Please back this up with facts. I spent a decade in pro-audio before becoming an LEO. ANY AR, regardless of barrel length, is going to be mid-160's in the decibel range. That's permanent hearing damage from ANY barrel length, regardless of muzzle device. Facts please.
Again, with what ammo? What muzzle device? What barrel length?
There many more important 'distractions' than muzzle blast....like receiving fire. If you are worried about muzzle blast, DON'T STACK UP, BRO. Also, a 12g firing 00buck from a SBS Remmy 870 is MUCH louder than any AR I've heard. If your head is in gear, you can do what you need to. Period.
Apples to oranges. The same shooter on a non-comp'd rifle will be FASTER and more effective in terms of ROF and rapid-fire-accuracy on a comp'd gun. Every time.
You're gonna be deaf either way. If somebody kicks in my front door, I'm not ****ing with ear-pro; I'm much more worried about getting set-up to defend myself and my wife.
Two words: Travis Haley. But he doesn't know shit, now does he?
One pic bro. ONe pic. No barrel length info. No gun info. No ammo info. No camera F-stop info. Nothing. Just a pic. I can make my G21 using Speer 200gr Gold Dot's look almost the same if you give me a DSLR and some time. Doesn't mean anything. My gun doesn't look ANYTHING like that in total darkness using Federal 556TNB1 (mk318 62gr) from my BCM 14.5" middy and FSC556.
My co-workers are just fine with what I run. Don't you go gettin' too worried about them.
So, you mean to tell me that, if we met, we wouldn't get along. Shocker. ;)
The main thing that prevents our entry teams from using newer muzzle devices (including true flash hiders like the AAC blackout) is institutional inertia. What will you do when most specialty teams use some form of comp/brake on their entry guns in ten-fifteen years? The same argument you're making now was made ten-fifteen years ago about red dot optics. And the only reason you've given me is that you just don't like comps for social work. Which is fine.
I have said repeatedly that it's going to be user preference for a proficient shooter. You have repeatedly chosen to make 'the cool kid' argument. That's fine as well, but I'm not going to cal anybody dumb or ignorant for choosing a comp. That would mean I'm calling people like Chris Costa, Travis Haley, Mike Pannone, and Pat Rogers ignorant or dumb. I think a little more of them than that. So do others here.
Just because another shooter determines that they like a setup that is different from yours doe snot make them inferior. I say: let them choose, free of the pressure from 'the cool kids'.
Regarding muzzle flash and sound level tests… try as I might… either my google-fu is weak today or the kind of scientific results that would be worth posting are well hidden. I know what my ears tell me when I hear guns with the same ammo, and same length bbl run – the brake/comp is perceptibly louder to me. Unfortunately I can’t locate empirical data to support that. If you have some, I’d love to see it. I freely admit I could be wrong about this. Maybe brakes aren’t really louder, but the pressure wave makes me believe they are?
With regard to SME’s:
Kyle Lamb: http://www.recoilweb.com/kyle-lambs-personal-vtac-mp15-567.html He has a S&W hider on his personal rifle according to this interview. He also states he normally uses SF hiders (not brakes) for his cans.
Mike Pannone: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=105474 “Breaks are great for competition but for the very reasons you mentioned are not a viable option for military/LE. The benefits in shootability of a comp are easily outweighed by flash signature to a threat, blinding effects to the shooter and the detrimental effects when shooting in proximity to others or the ground.”
Kyle Defoor: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=105471 Additionally Kyle told us in a class a few months back that the teams started using cans overseas not because of sound reduction, but for flash reduction. Seems the Hajis were VERY good at shooting at muzzle flashes. Given that information why would I not want the best hider available? A brake will not protect me from those distracting incoming rounds nearly so well.
Larry Vickers: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=105469 “My preferred muzzle device is an effective flash hider- I think the whole muzzle comp thing is blown way out of proportion and if you need to use your rifle in confined spaces or at night they are a detriment
The argument is made that they are the best setup for suppressors and that is fine as long as you run the gun with a can on it - when you take it off you are right back into the same issues as any other muzzle brake
Think long and hard before you decide what is best for you”
Jason Falla: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=105470 “I believe that muzzle breaks and compensators should be relegated to Special Purpose Rifles used by designated marksmen and snipers. These types of devices have obvious benefits in the reduction of recoil during long range precision rifle application on a dynamic battlefield. However, due to there amplified noise, pressure waves and flash particularly when used on a short barrel they have little to no application for general use on an M4 or equivalent duty weapon. All of these negative effects do not overcome the positive which is the management of felt recoil.”
Pat Rogers: He may have been quoted as liking the BC, but that is only one of many. Here he admits there is no free lunch and refers to all other brakes as “blast enhancers.” http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7206084761/m/11220584963 Also, his EAG Carbine made by BCM has an A2 style hider. That is a carbine he had built to his specifications. I don’t see a brake/comp on it and to me that speaks volumes. http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M16-A4-AR15-Bravo-Company-carbine-EAG-Pat-Rogers-s/151.htm
That one photo is of a Battle Comp on a shorty. The details are in the link provided and you will see that the shooter came to the realization that it’s an inappropriate muzzle device for a duty rifle after that class. Anecdotal? Sure. But I still find it telling. Here are some quotes from the people who were at the class and shot with a BC.
- “Slinging lead from a SBR inside of a car is loud. Not just loud for the shooter, but painfully loud for the passenger. My partner and I were shooting 11.5 and 12.5 BCM’s with battlecomps. While I am a big fan of the battlecomp on the flat range. Shooting it inside of a vehicle has me rethinking it. Every time my partner shot, I wasn’t sure if I was being blown up or just set on fire.” - Strawman
- “Battle Comp muzzle adaptors don't need to be anywhere near the inside of vehicles due to fire hazards and over pressuring the cabin!” – Falla
- “Yes, that's me and my Battle Comp trying to light myself and Strawman on fire in the front seats of a Ford Taurus. My thoughts on Battle Comps are wavering at this point.” – Chunks (the guy in the pic)
- “I will try to explain my comments on the Battlecomp as it relates to this class. First of all, I am a big fan of the Battlecomp and believe it is the easiest on the shooter and those around them of all the brakes/comps i have used. That being said, it has severe drawbacks when firing in very confined spaces (vehicles). This is not just the Battlecomp, but muzzle brakes in general. There was a huge difference between the muzzle brakes and standard bird cages. A longer barrel would probably make this less of an issue, but I am not sure how much. I was using a 12.5" BCM gun with the 1.5 Battlecomp.
If you never see the possibility of firing your AR from confined spaces like this, then rock the brakes. If you think it could fit into your job description, then you owe it to yourself to test it.” – Strawman
- “strawman - My experience with the BC and working in and around cars reflects yours.” Mick-boy
- “Muzzle Breaks or compensators have no business on high round count combat weapons such as an M4. These devices should be relegated to Sport shooting or SPR's.” - Falla
Not worried about your coworkers at all. As for making the “cool kid” argument… I don’t even know what that means. My opinion is mine, and I did not call anyone dumb or ignorant for choosing a comp/brake. I also didn’t say other setups were inferior.
As for us getting along in person, I’d bet we would but that’s your call. I’m pretty easy going and I respect anyone’s right to a differing opinion. I also don’t mind a healthy debate. But make no mistake – none of this is personal for me.
Regarding the future of muzzle devices, you may be right. I’ve been wrong before and I’m sure I’ll be wrong again. Of course, if it were up to me all entry teams would have agency provided cans on their rifles making this debate null and void. ;)
ETA: I did find this: http://ar15adviser.com/index.php?/topic/59518-556-muzzle-device-testing/ Not sure how scientific it is... but it's interesting.
For what it's worth, prolly not much, I can vouch for this:
Seems the Hajis were VERY good at shooting at muzzle flashes.
We recently started fielding Minimi's, and why they chose one long and one short barrel is beyond me. The short barrel at night is a frigging bullet magnet because of the flash. Huge learning point that one.
As such, I like the A2's we have on our HK416s, very little muzzle flash, with our ammo, in the 16" guns.
And there isn't exactly a lot of muzzle rise in a 5.56.
BufordTJustice
05-22-12, 13:35
Regarding muzzle flash and sound level tests… try as I might… either my google-fu is weak today or the kind of scientific results that would be worth posting are well hidden. I know what my ears tell me when I hear guns with the same ammo, and same length bbl run – the brake/comp is perceptibly louder to me. Unfortunately I can’t locate empirical data to support that. If you have some, I’d love to see it. I freely admit I could be wrong about this. Maybe brakes aren’t really louder, but the pressure wave makes me believe they are?
With regard to SME’s:
Kyle Lamb: http://www.recoilweb.com/kyle-lambs-personal-vtac-mp15-567.html He has a S&W hider on his personal rifle according to this interview. He also states he normally uses SF hiders (not brakes) for his cans.
Mike Pannone: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=105474 “Breaks are great for competition but for the very reasons you mentioned are not a viable option for military/LE. The benefits in shootability of a comp are easily outweighed by flash signature to a threat, blinding effects to the shooter and the detrimental effects when shooting in proximity to others or the ground.”
Kyle Defoor: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=105471 Additionally Kyle told us in a class a few months back that the teams started using cans overseas not because of sound reduction, but for flash reduction. Seems the Hajis were VERY good at shooting at muzzle flashes. Given that information why would I not want the best hider available? A brake will not protect me from those distracting incoming rounds nearly so well.
Larry Vickers: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=105469 “My preferred muzzle device is an effective flash hider- I think the whole muzzle comp thing is blown way out of proportion and if you need to use your rifle in confined spaces or at night they are a detriment
The argument is made that they are the best setup for suppressors and that is fine as long as you run the gun with a can on it - when you take it off you are right back into the same issues as any other muzzle brake
Think long and hard before you decide what is best for you”
Jason Falla: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=105470 “I believe that muzzle breaks and compensators should be relegated to Special Purpose Rifles used by designated marksmen and snipers. These types of devices have obvious benefits in the reduction of recoil during long range precision rifle application on a dynamic battlefield. However, due to there amplified noise, pressure waves and flash particularly when used on a short barrel they have little to no application for general use on an M4 or equivalent duty weapon. All of these negative effects do not overcome the positive which is the management of felt recoil.”
Pat Rogers: He may have been quoted as liking the BC, but that is only one of many. Here he admits there is no free lunch and refers to all other brakes as “blast enhancers.” http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7206084761/m/11220584963 Also, his EAG Carbine made by BCM has an A2 style hider. That is a carbine he had built to his specifications. I don’t see a brake/comp on it and to me that speaks volumes. http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M16-A4-AR15-Bravo-Company-carbine-EAG-Pat-Rogers-s/151.htm
That one photo is of a Battle Comp on a shorty. The details are in the link provided and you will see that the shooter came to the realization that it’s an inappropriate muzzle device for a duty rifle after that class. Anecdotal? Sure. But I still find it telling. Here are some quotes from the people who were at the class and shot with a BC.
- “Slinging lead from a SBR inside of a car is loud. Not just loud for the shooter, but painfully loud for the passenger. My partner and I were shooting 11.5 and 12.5 BCM’s with battlecomps. While I am a big fan of the battlecomp on the flat range. Shooting it inside of a vehicle has me rethinking it. Every time my partner shot, I wasn’t sure if I was being blown up or just set on fire.” - Strawman
- “Battle Comp muzzle adaptors don't need to be anywhere near the inside of vehicles due to fire hazards and over pressuring the cabin!” – Falla
- “Yes, that's me and my Battle Comp trying to light myself and Strawman on fire in the front seats of a Ford Taurus. My thoughts on Battle Comps are wavering at this point.” – Chunks (the guy in the pic)
- “I will try to explain my comments on the Battlecomp as it relates to this class. First of all, I am a big fan of the Battlecomp and believe it is the easiest on the shooter and those around them of all the brakes/comps i have used. That being said, it has severe drawbacks when firing in very confined spaces (vehicles). This is not just the Battlecomp, but muzzle brakes in general. There was a huge difference between the muzzle brakes and standard bird cages. A longer barrel would probably make this less of an issue, but I am not sure how much. I was using a 12.5" BCM gun with the 1.5 Battlecomp.
If you never see the possibility of firing your AR from confined spaces like this, then rock the brakes. If you think it could fit into your job description, then you owe it to yourself to test it.” – Strawman
- “strawman - My experience with the BC and working in and around cars reflects yours.” Mick-boy
- “Muzzle Breaks or compensators have no business on high round count combat weapons such as an M4. These devices should be relegated to Sport shooting or SPR's.” - Falla
Not worried about your coworkers at all. As for making the “cool kid” argument… I don’t even know what that means. My opinion is mine, and I did not call anyone dumb or ignorant for choosing a comp/brake. I also didn’t say other setups were inferior.
As for us getting along in person, I’d bet we would but that’s your call. I’m pretty easy going and I respect anyone’s right to a differing opinion. I also don’t mind a healthy debate. But make no mistake – none of this is personal for me.
Regarding the future of muzzle devices, you may be right. I’ve been wrong before and I’m sure I’ll be wrong again. Of course, if it were up to me all entry teams would have agency provided cans on their rifles making this debate null and void. ;)
At least we agree on the Can issue. My next project is convincing the wife I need a new CHF BCM 11.5" upper AND a can for it.....not a small undertaking.
I agree that there are many who favor flash hiders, and I won't argue one bit that the BEST flash hider AND comp/brake is a suppressor. I totally agree with that. However, there are also many who are converting to comps/brakes as they become more refined. What happens when a hybrid design of the BC comes out that hides flash better? Or an improved FSC556 that has even less flash than it does now? Companies have only been applying serious consideration to these issues for just over the last half-decade. People have been refining flash hiders for nearly a century.
Pat Rogers played a hand in the new BCM comp. I don't see a guy like him choosing to waste time on anything he doesn't see as worthwhile. Mike Pannone sure did love his NGA X7 with a comp...I would be interested to hear what he has to say about them now that he has field tested the X7 (NGA: RIP).
Give it time, and the design concepts will further mature. As far as SPL, a comp'd gun isn't going to be that much louder than a non-comp'd gun. However, the concussion (blast) will be higher or lower depending on how the brake is ported. This overpressure occurs as a pressure wave at a much lower frequency than a normal gunshot report. Sound is very simply air pressure waves. The concussion is just over pressure from the discharge of the round. It can add to the unpleasantness, but it will not necessarily be 'louder' in pure mathematical terms.
A lot of this is ammo/comp dependent. I have shot the BC's and like them. I like my FSC556 better because it produces WAY less flash. Using Hornady TAP 75gr .223 pressure, there is almost no flash in complete darkness (I'm talking starlight only on our agency range after our pupils have dilated)...and what flash can be seen is intermittent at best. The A2 on my wife's 14.7" middy is so similar to my FSC556 when running Federal white box Mk318, Neither she nor I can tell the difference on a dark range. Granted, the A2 is NOT a very good flash hider. If I were going for pure FH ability, I would select an AAC Blackout or a Vortex.
As for discharging inside of a vehicle (especially one with closed windows), it's going to be loud. I've shot out of a vehicle during training that had been 'pre-perforated' by our SWAT team during SWAT round-up. I used my above mentioned carbine and my agency issued Remington 870 14" SBS using Speer Lawman 00Buck. I had a much more difficult time shooting the shotgun than my carbine, though both were unpleasant. Shooting my buddy's legacy 18.5" 870P was more of the same....tooth rattling. Even using my G21 and running some GDHP 200gr +P was rough. I ended that session with some rounds from my G26 (GDHP 124gr +P) and that wasn't very fun either...though not nearly as bad as the first four. Point being....shooting out of a vehicle or in a confined space is gonna rattle your teeth. The adrenaline dump will take care of the rest.
I have also shot several friend's SBR's. I find that even when they have A2's/B-O's/Vortex's they all have lots of blast. Shooting inside of a car with the windows up, the majority of that blast is gonna get bounced around inside the car as omni-directional overpressure unless you begin with a contact shot on the window (muzzle-against pane). Even then, if you're shooting through a windshield, it will spider and crack, with only a relatively small hole being created. That means the windshield will act like the blast baffle in a brake or comp and it will redirect the hot gasses back at you. Like I said, it's gonna suck any way you cut it....regardless of muzzle device.
On an SBR, the best use of a comp is for a can-mount. This is because most SBR's have tons of blast anyway. My 14.5" BCM middy is not that much longer, but the blast is much less than a friend's 10.5" SBR running an A2.
And maybe I was wrong about us getting along in person. I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this topic though.
For the record, I'm not trying to say comps are the best ever...I AM saying that they can be a viable option based on user preference with these newer designs.
EDIT: That is a VERY interesting article.
From the article:
"A couple of points need to be stated right now, prior to showing any results:
-Not every product shown makes an explicit claim to be a flash-hider. A few of then only claim to be muzzle brakes or combination devices (though they were tested anyway) so results of flash-hiding should not be considered any sort of endorsement or lack thereof.
-All tests took place with the highest flash ammunition available (Federal XM-193) as shown by earlier tests. Low-flash ammunition (which you should be using, at least for defensive purposes) was explicitly not used.
-Every test was done with a registered 11.5” BCM SBR. A short barreled rifle produces a higher flash level (no kidding!) due to a larger amount of unburned powder leaving the barrel. The reasoning of the use of an SBR for this initial testing accompanied with high-flash ammunition, as opposed to the more common 14.5” or 16 barrel was three-fold:
-If anybody needs a good flash hider, it’s the owner of an SBR
-If a particular flash hider works well with a short barrel, it should certainly work with a, ‘full size’ rifle just as good if not better.
-Documenting and demonstrating levels of flash with an SBR should be easier to accomplish than with a full size rifle.
-Initially, every flash hider was cleansed the test but three rounds were spent through each prior to photography to ensure that each of them were equally fouled. "
http://ar15adviser.com/index.php?/topic/59518-556-muzzle-device-testing/
So, what do you think. Is a comp a crutch?
No.
In my opinion, anyone who knows how to run a rifle, will be able to do so successfully with or without a comp. Sure I prefer a comp, but when I have to shoot guns with FH or without any muzzle device on the clock for score it does not seem to alter the fundamentals any. I get the hits I need and move on. It all comes down to just that, the fundamentals. Just my thoughts on the matter.
BufordTJustice
05-22-12, 13:50
Another thought on tactics:
I have seen zero data, anecdotal or empirical, on this topic. But I have a suspicion: that comps can make it more difficult for an enemy to use sound to establish your location based on sound alone. This is part of the reason that suppressors are so effective...they disperse sound in various directions (and reduce it overall), making it more difficult to localize the shot. With sound echoing like it tends to do, I wonder how some of these modern comps MIGHT help to better conceal one's location, at least during daylight operations, based on this principle?
I have no data to back this up...just thinking out loud here. But the concept seems sound (pun intended).
I also wonder how well that 'boomerang' sniper-finder mic-array that the MIL uses would work on a bunch of comp'd AK74's instead of slant-braked or bare-muzzled AKM's? Or maybe on some comp'd AR's? Who knows....
It is pretty damn difficult to locate enemy firing positions based on sound. Seeing the enemy (personnel or flashes) or seeing/hearing bullet impact/splash are the main methods of locating enemy positions when taken under fire from unk direction.
I have no experience with comps or breaks (other than the M82 Barrett), but not sure if it would make a difference, seeing as it is pretty damn difficult as it is.
BufordTJustice
05-22-12, 14:04
It is pretty damn difficult to locate enemy firing positions based on sound. Seeing the enemy (personnel or flashes) or seeing/hearing bullet impact/splash are the main methods of locating enemy positions when taken under fire from unk direction.
I have no experience with comps or breaks (other than the M82 Barrett), but not sure if it would make a difference, seeing as it is pretty damn difficult as it is.
Agreed. But making it more difficult to localize the origin of the shot has saved the lives of many-a-SDM for US forces. Between the use of the OPS Inc collar brake and a suppressor, this greatly aids a shooter's ability to fire without being seen. I'm not saying it's enough to definitively favor one opponent over another, but it MAY help. I think it might be a way of 'setting yourself up for success'.
Suppressors are definitely a huge benefit, I agree that using suppressors makes it even more difficult.
Again, I don't know how much louder a break or comp is on an assault rifle, but if it makes communication more difficult during the firefight, I don't know if that outweighs the possible detection benefit.
Speaking from a small unit, military view that is.
I seem to remember reading that a comp doesn't make the sound louder so much as it simply redirects some of the noise. As was mentioned earlier you're still gonna be in the 160's Decibel range which will cause perm damage with or without a comp
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
Depends, gamer comp's seem to work better, the "tactical" comps seem to be trinkets that half of this market is eating up like candy and lining someone else's pockets. Yes there are perceptible benefits to the "tactical" ones but how quantifiable are they if people refuse to go out and compare?
vicious_cb
05-22-12, 15:32
Depends, gamer comp's seem to work better, the "tactical" comps seem to be trinkets that half of this market is eating up like candy and lining someone else's pockets. Yes there are perceptible benefits to the "tactical" ones but how quantifiable are they if people refuse to go out and compare?
Thats because half the market thinks if they put a comp on the end of their gun they'll shoot like Costa. Lets face it, most people won't even bother getting the fundamentals down first so a comp is just a waste of money for them.
At least we agree on the Can issue. My next project is convincing the wife I need a new CHF BCM 11.5" upper AND a can for it.....not a small undertaking.
And maybe I was wrong about us getting along in person. I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this topic though.
Good luck with that! Do you know someone with a can so she can shoot it? Maybe she'll tell you to get his and hers... ;)
I agree - as technology advances, options will only get better for us as enthusiasts and professionals. I have the FSC556 on a 16" rifle and like it fine. I'm told it's the least obnoxious comp to be next to. lol! It's getting replaced because I bought a can with a proprietary mount, but I'm going with a hider over a brake. :D No problem agreeing to disagree. I will share my opinions, but don't expect anyone to adopt them.
Stay safe.
No. It's an enhancement just like a flash hider is. These enhancments offer special advantages.
There is a way it can hinder a better understanding of certain fundamentals since it makes the effects of muzzle rise less obvious. Aside from that thought, however, it really is just an enhancement. Someone like me doesn't shoot as fast with a higher recoil rifle for obvious reasons... you have to hit the target.
NCPatrolAR
05-22-12, 16:30
Thats because half the market thinks if they put a comp on the end of their gun they'll shoot like Costa. Lets face it, most people won't even bother getting the fundamentals down first so a comp is just a waste of money for them.
Lots o' truth
Grumpy MSG
05-22-12, 17:28
Some folks seem to be looking for an auto analogy, "slicks" might be a good one, they will help you win races, but wouldn't work well on a wet highway.
Personally, I'd consider one on a competition rifle, but not on a battle/service/patrol type rifle. It is more of accessory than a crutch. But I wouldn't shoot a Barrett .50 BMG without one...
... ok ok,
A comp is not a crutch, it's a comp. No brainer. :haha:
HuntingTime
05-22-12, 22:45
As with all things there is room for improvement. As with other muzzle devices it adds one more advantage to the rifle. A good comp can help you stay on target if proper application is used and does not make up for good training. Which all goes together.
It's not "re-learning" though. It's either learning something you never learned in the first place, or merely recalibrating for a different platform.
Call it re-learning, or re-calibrating, it doesn't matter how you try to split the hairs. There is a period of time where you're not shooting properly based on the platform or the gadgets attached to the weapons platform in your hands and THAT is the issue.
You can play the name game all day long, but it doesn't change the fact that performance is degraded for a period until you get yourself back up to speed. That equates into allowing yourself to be lazy and letting a gadget do your work for you instead of doing the work and letting the gadget help.
If you were applying the fundamentals throughout, this transitional period would not be necessary.
It's no different than going from an unsuppressed to suppressed platform,
Based on my personal experience, this is false. I shoot both suppressed and unsuppressed and while I do find target transition to be slower with the suppressor due to weight, there is no learning curve when I remove it, nor when I attach it. This is because my fundamentals remain the same regardless if it is attached or not.
lightweight barrel profile to medium, 5.56 to 6.8 or 7.62, irons to RDS or RDS to magnified optic, etc. All of them require a recalibration in how fast you work the gun.
I disagree. I think you are mistaking the performance of the platform with YOUR performance. There is no way i'll be able to get a 7.62 back on target as quick as a 5.56, no matter how well I apply the fundamentals. They recoil more, have more moving mass, and that is that.
If I throw on some gadgets that make it go as fast (still never to get as fast as a 5.56 simply due to how much mass is being moved), then i'm ok so long as I am still applying the fundamentals. Point being that there should still be no learning curve when I switch weapons. I should still have a solid grip, use a consistent trigger pull, perform my followthrouth and recovery, be pulling the rifle properly back into my shoulder, obtaining the best sight picture I can, etc. Those things should NEVER change, regardless of the platform I am shooting. The only thing that changes is how fast I am able to accomplish those actions based on the performance of the weapon in my hands.
To say that there will always be a learning curve between platforms is to say that you are somehow letting some or all of those fundamentals degrade for whatever reason. If this is the case, then the issue is YOU, not the gun, not the gadgets, not the sunshine or the rain. No excuses.
Personally, I use a 14.5" lightweight with a pinned BattleComp 1.5. I can move this gun VERY fast and get good hits at speed. The BC "compensates" for the lack of weight out front on follow up shots. Between the weight reduction and flat recoil profile, the advantage is significant. An advantage isn't a crutch, it's a tool in the toolbox.
And if you need a transition period, then it's a tool that you're using improperly. End of story.
If I happen to not have that tool, I'll grab another tool and make do within it's capabilities. It doesn't matter whether it's a non-comped AR, a Winchester 30-30 or a Mosin-Nagant. If you're a good shooter, you're a good shooter. Using a comp doesn't make you less so. :(
Uh, I think that's already been established.
And the fact of the matter is that if you're going through a learning curve when you switch weapons or change accessories, then you're not as good of a shooter as you like to think you are.
Data point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s2AR7g1M6I&feature=plcp
At 5:02 of this video a guy shoots 7.62 and gets best score on a drill against 5.56 guns which are all featured before him in the video. These are all experienced shooters.
It also is apparent in many videos on youtube with experienced shooters that comps do their job. I'm not sure what kind of delusions could be here but a bad trigger pull puts the muzzle off no matter how flat shooting your gun is. I think in the end people agree that you should get what works for you but that the fundamentals of course play a role. Put something on a timer? and measure a group? yeah, that's scientific enough to prove something. Do it at range, too. --- There's obviously a lot with the ARs and other guns that goes unexplored by lots of people. Some folks haven't even tried shooting 500 meters so why would they think magnification was so great?
When my company releases our proprietary muzzle comp we will be providing a free fake Costa beard with every purchase.
Clobbersauras
05-23-12, 01:44
Have you ever fired an SBR with any type of comp? It isn't pleasant for the shooter and anyone standing nearby even with double hearing protection.
Think outside the box for a moment. If shooting a comp increases the concussion to the shooter and anyone near him, what do you suppose it would be like to fire one without hearing protection? Would it be harder or easier on your ears? Now imagine your wife and dog and kid are nearby and you have to put someone down. Would you rather have a comp or a standard muzzle brake?
But that's besides the point.
It seems like the general consensus is that a comp is a crutch if you don't maintain the ability to fire quickly and effectively without one.
So, those of you that shoot comps and voted "no", how to do you avoid the laziness that can set in using a comp? How do you maintain your skills with a standard muzzle device? Are you switching to a different rifle from time to time to stay sharp? Do you do some gee whiz shit or are you just hoping to be just as good with any other device? Or do you not give a crap and assume you will always have access to your comp'd weapon?
I can't understand why you are so concerned about this.
If you are constantly trying to improve your shooting, which I think you probably are, then you will be doing some training by measuring yourself through accuracy based timed drills? (correct me if I'm wrong) To improve your time and accuracy, regardless if you use a muzzle device or not, you will need to apply the proper fundamentals. You may shoot slower or faster with any combination of attachments on your rifle. But what does that matter? As long as you are applying the fundamentals and improving?
I honestly don't think a muzzle brake, comp or flash hider is any more of a crutch than an optic, railed hand-guard or improved trigger.
Fundamentals are fundamentals. You need to apply them to improve, regardless of the equipment you are using. Then when something goes wrong and all you have access to is your buddy's stock Bushmaster, instead of your tricked out rifle, you won't have to worry so much, right? Well, except for the fact that it's a bushmaster...
P.S. My AR is a 10.5. I've shot thousands of rounds through it with muzzle brakes attached, some of them I designed.
P.P.S. Regarding no hearing protection: No, I would not want to fire an SBR with a MB indoors. But I wouldn't want to fire an SBR with an A2 indoors either.
Good luck with whatever you choose to do.
Ghostmaker
05-23-12, 06:08
I also believe it depends on the user.
I find when I apply the same correct fundamentals across the board, comp' or flash hider, theres not that big of a difference. All that has come with a lifetime (my lifetime) of building & evolving the correct fundamentals though. I think thats where some of the "depends on the user" part comes in.
For instance, I ran a comp' for about 5-6 months roughly. When I switched back to a different rig with a flash hider & I employed those same correct fundamentals that is muscle memory & automatic, I didn't experience any issues because my fundamentals was the same as before I ever used the comp'.
Those fundamentals is the basis in how I control muzzle rise, recoil, target transitioning etc etc...especially the Follow Through, not some comp' on the end of my BOOMStick.
When the proper/correct fundamentals are instilled, & your utilizing a AR platform chambered in 5.56, then controlling muzzle rise, target transitioning, recoil management, etc etc, isn't hard to learn with training. Especially when learning those things from a professional & sound Instructor.
I think if someone is going to employ/utilize a comp', they need to have instilled that mindset & fundamentals first & foremost. Because if they are relying strictly upon a piece of equipment to do all that for them, then they have some things they need to address.
All that being said, take into consideration that statistics say that most defensive situations happen in Low-light/No-light scenarios. Think of hearing that dreaded BANG,CRASH,BAM in the middle of the night in your home. Its most likely going to be dark.
The noise is between you & the rest of your family or some scenario where you have to investigate. You grab your tactical shoot'em up, death dealing, bad guy Ghost-making, M4, Lead chunking beast of a gun with one of "those" comps on the end of it to match.
You start "slicing the pie", clearing rooms till you get to the front living room where a bad guy has broke in & has bad things on his mind that he wants to do to your family with a weapon in hand. fast-forward... You press your shot, You better hope the first was the stopper cause that comp you have on the end of that DeathStick just became a Napalm, Fireball breathing dragon that may have taken away what little night vision you had... Long scenario but you get the picture. Our sensitive Night Vision & having to use Follow up shots are a fact of life...& death, gentlemen.
In my experience of Low-Light/No-Light shooting, I can tell you that having a good flash hider can help along with a cartridge thats utilizing flash-suppressant powders.
I also love putting a good Can on the end of my burner.
You got to think of which one is most likely to suit you best. If either its Self-defense/Duty, competitions or so on.
But first & foremost above all, Fundamentals/Skill, Mindset & Knowledge... then comes the other stuff.
BufordTJustice
05-24-12, 00:36
I think if someone is going to employ/utilize a comp', they need to have instilled that mindset & fundamentals first & foremost. Because if they are relying strictly upon a piece of equipment to do all that for them, then they have some things they need to address.
All that being said, take into consideration that statistics say that most defensive situations happen in Low-light/No-light scenarios. Think of hearing that dreaded BANG,CRASH,BAM in the middle of the night in your home. Its most likely going to be dark.
The noise is between you & the rest of your family or some scenario where you have to investigate. You grab your tactical shoot'em up, death dealing, bad guy Ghost-making, M4, Lead chunking beast of a gun with one of "those" comps on the end of it to match.
You start "slicing the pie", clearing rooms till you get to the front living room where a bad guy has broke in & has bad things on his mind that he wants to do to your family with a weapon in hand. fast-forward... You press your shot, You better hope the first was the stopper cause that comp you have on the end of that DeathStick just became a Napalm, Fireball breathing dragon that may have taken away what little night vision you had... Long scenario but you get the picture. Our sensitive Night Vision & having to use Follow up shots are a fact of life...& death, gentlemen.
In my experience of Low-Light/No-Light shooting, I can tell you that having a good flash hider can help along with a cartridge thats utilizing flash-suppressant powders.
I also love putting a good Can on the end of my burner.
You got to think of which one is most likely to suit you best. If either its Self-defense/Duty, competitions or so on.
But first & foremost above all, Fundamentals/Skill, Mindset & Knowledge... then comes the other stuff.
I must say that my night vision will be affected much MORE by my 160 lumen white light that I will use to ID the badguy before I shoot him. It's a great piece of information to have on your side if you can tell the responding LEO's (who will perform the initial investigation) that you used a bright white light to confirm that the badguy was unknown to you and that he/she was a threat....and HOW they were a threat.
I'm terrified I may execute my wife or a house guest by accident without using my white light (as I've been trained). This is also why I ponied-up for a Safariland holster that fits my TLR-1s mounted on my G21 gen3 for duty. Being able to SEE your threat is worth....well....about a thousand words and maybe a charging affidavit. ;)
Considering my training and tactics, a small muzzle flash will be inconsequential to the 'splash' I'll get from my WL bouncing of nearby walls and surfaces in the room. But that's just me.
Call it re-learning, or re-calibrating, it doesn't matter how you try to split the hairs. There is a period of time where you're not shooting properly based on the platform or the gadgets attached to the weapons platform in your hands and THAT is the issue.
For you perhaps, but not for me. Notice I said if it takes you more than one magazine to "relearn", you're doing it wrong. The quotation marks around "relearn" means I'm using your word to relate to what you posted, but I don't consider it relearning. I'm sorry if you don't understand how the English language works, but different words have different meanings. Re-learning and re-calibrating do not mean the same thing no matter how hard you wish it so.
You can play the name game all day long, but it doesn't change the fact that performance is degraded for a period until you get yourself back up to speed. That equates into allowing yourself to be lazy and letting a gadget do your work for you instead of doing the work and letting the gadget help.
Says who? You? Why does having a tool automatically make me lazy? You've never seen me shoot so how could you possibly know? Now if you're saying that having a better tool makes you lazy, I'll concede your point because I haven't seen you shoot.
If you were applying the fundamentals throughout, this transitional period would not be necessary.
I can pick up pretty much anything and shoot it well. That doesn't mean I'm going to shoot it optimally from round one. If you're saying you can, I'll buy your DVD and judge for myself. :)
Based on my personal experience, this is false. I shoot both suppressed and unsuppressed and while I do find target transition to be slower with the suppressor due to weight, there is no learning curve when I remove it, nor when I attach it. This is because my fundamentals remain the same regardless if it is attached or not.
Then how can you say a comp is a crutch if it allows similar recoil characteristics with a lighter, faster transitioning barrel? You're betting that everyone suddenly becomes lazy because a comp makes more efficient use of propellant gasses? Where's your proof of that?
I disagree. I think you are mistaking the performance of the platform with YOUR performance. There is no way i'll be able to get a 7.62 back on target as quick as a 5.56, no matter how well I apply the fundamentals. They recoil more, have more moving mass, and that is that.
Then you don't know how to manage recoil as well as you think. I can clear a set of 6 poppers with an 8" Saiga 12ga from the low ready in less than 2 seconds on a random start (1.57 best IIRC). I can assure you it recoils MUCH more than a 10# battle rifle or any 5.56.
If I throw on some gadgets that make it go as fast (still never to get as fast as a 5.56 simply due to how much mass is being moved), then i'm ok so long as I am still applying the fundamentals. Point being that there should still be no learning curve when I switch weapons. I should still have a solid grip, use a consistent trigger pull, perform my follow through and recovery, be pulling the rifle properly back into my shoulder, obtaining the best sight picture I can, etc. Those things should NEVER change, regardless of the platform I am shooting. The only thing that changes is how fast I am able to accomplish those actions based on the performance of the weapon in my hands.
Then why in the world would any of those things change just because you add a comp?
To say that there will always be a learning curve between platforms is to say that you are somehow letting some or all of those fundamentals degrade for whatever reason. If this is the case, then the issue is YOU, not the gun, not the gadgets, not the sunshine or the rain. No excuses.
Which is exactly why I never said there was a learning curve, you did. You tried to put words in my mouth that I disagree with. You as much as admitted that you cannot get comparable split times to a 5.56 with a 7.62. Why in the world would you think you can get comparable splits to a comped 5.56 as you could a non-comped 5.56? Assuming equal accuracy standards, a more efficient platform is going to perform better, period. You cannot argue with physics. The numbers don't lie. I cannot get equal split times with my 8" Saiga as I can get with a race prepped Benelli M2. either. That doesn't mean I forgot how to manage recoil between the two.
And if you need a transition period, then it's a tool that you're using improperly. End of story.
So, do you need a transition period?
Uh, I think that's already been established.
And the fact of the matter is that if you're going through a learning curve when you switch weapons or change accessories, then you're not as good of a shooter as you like to think you are.
No learning curve needed here. I already know what I know and how to apply it, regardless of the platform. I don't forget that just because I switch platforms. Regardless of your feelings on the subject, words matter. If you forget how to do something and reacquire it, that's relearning. If you fail to do something you know and remember how to do, then resume doing it, that's laziness being corrected. If you make an automatic adjustment to your application of technique based on known variations between tools, that's a recalibration.
If you hate comps, think they're a crutch and make people lazy, just admit it. Arguing an emotion based opinion as a fact doesn't work. You do however live up to your screen name! ;)
Alaskapopo
05-24-12, 01:49
I had a year long fling with a Battlecomp. I shot it exclusively, not having once picket up a uncompensated AR during that time. It worked well in keeping my muzzle on target during rapid fire -almost too well.
When I decided to put together my first SBR I was aware of the complaints other shooters had about the concussion from my BC. Knowing the shorter barrel would only make the concussion worse, I decided to go back to basics and stick with an A2. What I found is that after a year of shooting a compensated AR I had to spend several range sessions retraining myself to effectively control an uncompensated weapon during rapid fire.
This got me to wondering if using a compensated weapon was a good idea at all. After all, it is much easier to transition from an uncompensated weapon to a compensated weapon than vice versa. It certainly takes degree of skill to effectively control an uncompensated muzzle under rapid fire.
So, what do you think. Is a comp a crutch?
Its not a crutch it provides an edge and edges are good. Comps allow you to fire more rapidly especially at distance. It also allows you to shoot from more akward positions with greater speed. You should also be able to adapt to the weapon your using. If you grab an un comped rifle you should still be able to shoot it as well as you could before. If you can't the problem is with you not the equipment. I hear people saying things like allowing the gadget to do the work for you. Hell yes. I would much rather the bullets kill the threat than having to use my bare hands. That is what technology is all about. Finding ways to make things easier and more efficient. Nothing wrong with that. Hell if you think there is go back to a muzzle loader and a horse.
Pat
For you perhaps, but not for me. Notice I said if it takes you more than one magazine to "relearn", you're doing it wrong. The quotation marks around "relearn" means I'm using your word to relate to what you posted, but I don't consider it relearning. I'm sorry if you don't understand how the English language works, but different words have different meanings. Re-learning and re-calibrating do not mean the same thing no matter how hard you wish it so.
And pathetic attempts at re-defining the language simply because you don't like the way the truth sounds is moronic and childish.
Keep arguing the meaning of the word "it", at the end of the day you'll still be stuck with a smelly cigar.
Says who? You? Why does having a tool automatically make me lazy?
For ****s sake man, have you actually bothered to ****ing READ and COMPREHEND my posts, or did you just let your tiny dick ego lead the charge out of the gate without bothering to underderstand what was written?
Please, feel free to go back through the entire thread and find a single place where I said that comps absolutly, 100%, make all shooters lazy. If you can do that, you win the intarwebz.
You've never seen me shoot so how could you possibly know? Now if you're saying that having a better tool makes you lazy, I'll concede your point because I haven't seen you shoot.
Yahoo, gotta throw in the whole ghetto "You don't know me!" angle there too. Nice.
Then how can you say a comp is a crutch if it allows similar recoil characteristics with a lighter, faster transitioning barrel? You're betting that everyone suddenly becomes lazy because a comp makes more efficient use of propellant gasses? Where's your proof of that?
The word you're missing is "CAN" be, not will be. RIF dude. Seriously, this shit is getting old.
Then you don't know how to manage recoil as well as you think. I can clear a set of 6 poppers with an 8" Saiga 12ga from the low ready in less than 2 seconds on a random start (1.57 best IIRC). I can assure you it recoils MUCH more than a 10# battle rifle or any 5.56.
****ing seriously? Are you really comparing a ****ing pattern flinging shotgun with a rifle? Double the distance and go shoot those plates with a ****ing 5.56 and then a 7.62 and get back to me on your split times. Until then, your apples to horse shit comparisons mean not a goddamn thing.
Then why in the world would any of those things change just because you add a comp?
Herp dee durr.......Now you don't know the characteristics of your own gear? Cute.
Which is exactly why I never said there was a learning curve, you did.
Yes I did. I did so because I have a firm grasp of the english language and am not trying to re-label an act simply because I don't like the way it makes me feel when said the way it is supposed to.
You tried to put words in my mouth that I disagree with.
Keep arguing, Bill Clinton.
Transion period = re-learning. Period, end of story.
I'm properly using the english language. You're aruging like a child because you don't like how a word makes you feel.
You as much as admitted that you cannot get comparable split times to a 5.56 with a 7.62. Why in the world would you think you can get comparable splits to a comped 5.56 as you could a non-comped 5.56?
Uh, what? I don't recall that being a point of contention. Are you just making shit up to argue about now?
Assuming equal accuracy standards, a more efficient platform is going to perform better, period. You cannot argue with physics.
Ok..thank you captian obvious for stating what we already know.
The numbers don't lie. I cannot get equal split times with my 8" Saiga as I can get with a race prepped Benelli M2. either. That doesn't mean I forgot how to manage recoil between the two.
Thanks for making my point for me. Just with a different type of gun. Nice!
So, do you need a transition period?
I think all guys do. We can't just go and go like women.
No learning curve needed here.
Patently false. Your learning curve actually needs to take place in the classroom though, not on the range. The fundamentals of English, reading comprehension, and critical thinking skills 101 should be first in the queue.
I already know what I know and how to apply it, regardless of the platform. I don't forget that just because I switch platforms. Regardless of your feelings on the subject, words matter. If you forget how to do something and reacquire it, that's relearning. If you fail to do something you know and remember how to do, then resume doing it, that's laziness being corrected. If you make an automatic adjustment to your application of technique based on known variations between tools, that's a recalibration.
Forget= re-learn. Fail to do something you're supposed to do = forgetting to do = re-learn.
That last gem about "re-calibration" is pure horseshit. Re-calibration is something that is done when you have failed to properly apply a fundamental and need to get it back to what it used to be. If you never stopped applying it correctly to begin with, you wouldn't have to "re-calibrate". When something is "calibrated", it is working within an expected performance specification. If it falls out of that expected performance specification, it needs to be re-calibrated. If you need to "re-calibrate" yourself to different shooting platforms, then YOU are letting YOURSELF fall out of accepted performance specifications based on the gear you are using. Once again, it boils down to YOU, and YOUR failures because YOU are using YOUR gear as a crutch.
If you hate comps, think they're a crutch and make people lazy, just admit it. Arguing an emotion based opinion as a fact doesn't work. You do however live up to your screen name! ;)
Please, once again, feel free to go find where I said I hate comps.
And I'm not the one feeling the need to defend myself, re-define the language, change words because I don't like how they make me feel, and fail to read and comprehend what has been written.
You've produced zero fact whereas the admissions of the OP are pretty clear. Your own admissions that you need to adjust yourself to each gun you shoot is all the "fact" I need from you about where you stand.
http://i.imgur.com/JvAod.gif
No. It's an enhancement just like a flash hider is. These enhancments offer special advantages.
Indeed. Enhancements such as doing a good deal of controlling the muzzle for you.
NCPatrolAR
05-24-12, 18:07
It also allows you to shoot from more akward positions with greater speed.
With some disadvantages
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w167/DefConNC/Carbine%202%204-5%20June%202011/DSC02999-1.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w167/DefConNC/Carbine%202%204-5%20June%202011/DSC02988-1-1.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w167/DefConNC/Carbine%202%204-5%20June%202011/DSC02985-1-1.jpg
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w167/DefConNC/Carbine%202%204-5%20June%202011/DSC02974.jpg
vicious_cb
05-24-12, 18:11
Yep, Im guessing the people who dont see the dust kick up as a problem dont shoot urban prone much. It isnt the dust thats giving away your position thats the biggest problem, its the dust obscuring your vision, blowing into your face and blowing into your rifle thats the problem.
So how does that comp work when you're shooting prone and kicking up five times as much dust? Or when your shooting from a building and your gun makes twice as much noise? Or when you're shooting at night and your gun strobes teh whole house or countryside? Or when you shoot in a hallway and earplugs plus muffs won't protect you?
You really think a fraction of a second on a shot to shot time is the end all of combat shooting?
Everything is a trade off
Never had that issue. I've run mine indoors, outdoors, prone and at night and never really noticed anything dramatic from the standard A2. I run a BC 1.5.
Shooting prone will kick shit up. Depending on the terrain and of course what's on the end of your muzzle. But I have never had such an issue that I thought, shit I wish I had my normal A2 back. It's actually been the opposite feeling.
I run standard Peltor ComTacs and never noticed it was louder than with an A2.
Maybe, I'm slow, deaf and blind though.
Alaskapopo
05-24-12, 18:14
Yep, Im guessing the people who dont see the dust kick up as a problem dont shoot urban prone much. It isnt the dust thats giving away your position thats the biggest problem, its the dust obscuring your vision, blowing into your face and blowing into your rifle thats the problem.
True urban prone does suck with comp that that is fun with a flash hider either. In fact its a position that I have never used in the field ever other than training.
pat
Littlelebowski
05-24-12, 20:33
True urban prone does suck with comp that that is fun with a flash hider either. In fact its a position that I have never used in the field ever other than training.
pat
I would be very surprised if you had used the urban prone for real given your profession and location (no offense, it's highly specialized).
Failure2Stop gave an excellent class on this with data from his real world experience.
Alaskapopo
05-24-12, 22:38
I would be very surprised if you had used the urban prone for real given your profession and location (no offense, it's highly specialized).
Failure2Stop gave an excellent class on this with data from his real world experience.
No offense taken. I am just a small town cop and not a lot of action that way around here. But I have been on gun calls and made my share of building entries when I was on the drug team. I do think Urban prone is a usefull tool to have in the box I am just saying I wouldn't build everything around that one tool. That said I do want to get a mini can for my SCAR-17 because I do not want to fire it on duty in doors without ear pro due to the comp. Would not want to shoot it without ear pro at all but expecially indoors. Like was said before everything has trade offs.
Pat
Ghostmaker
05-25-12, 00:13
I must say that my night vision will be affected much MORE by my 160 lumen white light that I will use to ID the badguy before I shoot him. It's a great piece of information to have on your side if you can tell the responding LEO's (who will perform the initial investigation) that you used a bright white light to confirm that the badguy was unknown to you and that he/she was a threat....and HOW they were a threat.
I'm terrified I may execute my wife or a house guest by accident without using my white light (as I've been trained). This is also why I ponied-up for a Safariland holster that fits my TLR-1s mounted on my G21 gen3 for duty. Being able to SEE your threat is worth....well....about a thousand words and maybe a charging affidavit. ;)
Considering my training and tactics, a small muzzle flash will be inconsequential to the 'splash' I'll get from my WL bouncing of nearby walls and surfaces in the room. But that's just me.
Hmmm, let me start with this. As far as being "terrified" about engaging or "executing" as you put it, the wrong person, I can say Light or No light, I'm not going to engage & fire on someone who I can NOT confirm is a threat in the first place. If your dependent on that Light as to whether or not, you might accidentally "execute" a loved one... thats not good. Surely thats not how you meant it. I'm going to say it wasn't. I'm not going to press a shot on anyone without first being 100% sure the person is a threat. So I have no fear or "terror" that I will be firing on the wrong person in that aspect...
In my last post, I was more speaking of a specific scenario (no weapons mounted light). Not only that but it was just to show the possibilities, Obviously.
Depending on the user, there are a lot of different set ups, not everyone utilizes a weapons mounted light for reasons beyond me.
WL's, like other things that run on batteries & is electronic can fail... Although very unlikely considering the quality of lights some companies have out there. However unlikely it is, like many things, its a possibility. You cant totally rely on a piece of equipment that in the end, could fail, no matter how much the odds are stacked against that happening.
Theres nothing wrong with having back ups for your back ups. Thats also why I use, & teach others to utilize voice commands. Especially in a scenario where its dark.
Just remember, 1 is none, 2 is one & 3 is better, like many things.
When your searching, leaving your Weapon Light on the entire time is not a good thing either, especially with the possibility of back-lighting yourself. You have to be careful of that. I'm Not saying you personally do that...
When using a Weapon mounted light/handheld light, I think the tactic of flash or flash & slash till you find a threat that needs to be engaged immediately is superior to leaving the WL on the whole time your searching & clearing (slicing the pie & such). It helps with keeping the proverbial bad guy from homing in on your exact location while doing so.
Also, involving your whole family in planning for such scenarios is a great thing to do, although not enough do it.
It really goes without saying that being able to see the threat is a good thing. Of course it is.... Im getting off topic now so...
I disagree with you about the muzzle flash of certain comps' being inconsequential.
Depending on which one is being used along with other variables, that flash is not going to be inconsequential. Especially when Not using cartridges with Flash suppressant powders.
The splash you get from your weapons mounted light reflecting off objects is different from that split second fireball that comes with said comps'. Depending on what that flash from your WL is reflecting off of, all that light isn't being concentrated straight back into your eyes, unless of course its reflecting off things like a mirror, or a very white wall thats close, etc..then you get into that issue of back-lighting yourself.
The light that the fireball from the comp' produces is directed straight into your eyes from the source, not hitting something, light beams being broke up, then sent all different directions, some back to you.
They are 2 different things...
When going through the shoot house, reproducing a scenario of engaging a bad guy in your house at night or in low light, I found with a WML, depending on the type of comp' & sometimes the power of your light & type of cartridges, that flash can still give you a little blur in your vision. For said application I much rather have a good flash hider while utilizing a cartridge with flash suppressant powders .
Theres other things to consider like duty use. During a incident in low light/no light, although most engagements happen up close anyway, theres possibilities in certain scenarios & variables of giving away your position when you don't want to & the big fireball of your comp' doing just that.
Obviously Military OP scenarios can play into that.
For me it goes back to a Flash hider being a more versatile part....Like i said, for me.
As I also stated, while applying those correct fundamentals across the board, I don't see that much of a difference in follow up shots, staying on target, or especially target transitions; And especially nothing thats going to actually be decisive in a engagement. Thats all in relation to a comp' being on a 5.56 chambered platform of course.
Don't get me wrong, I dont hate comps', nor do I think their totally useless...I believe there is applications out there that can be beneficial. One example could be on a 7.62x51/.308 chambered platform. Not a dedicated marksmen/precision rifle used by a sniper of course where they want to remain hidden. They could be useful in certain ways, like using them in competitions where that extra .001 or .002 second might count for another example. And I'm not bashing people who like to utilize them for whatever reason or situation, its their preference. I too have a couple comps', although they are not currently on any of my platforms, nor am I currently planning to put them on one at the present time.
For me I know that a good flash hider has better benefits & a comp' for defense, or something besides competition doesn't really make that big of a difference. A good platform in 5.56 with a flash hider is very controllable with the right fundamentals & shooting foundation instilled.
Brings me back to my original opinion... It depends on the user as to whether its a crutch or not.
Besides.... I run the guns, the guns dont run me. Thats a part of the mindset we all should have.
vicious_cb
05-25-12, 14:26
Nice wall of text there, too bad I can't read it because your font and color hurts my eyes :rolleyes:
Littlelebowski
05-25-12, 15:41
Who here has actually measured a quantifiable difference after using a brake/comp? Post your data and the drills you did.
Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2
BufordTJustice
05-25-12, 17:29
I'm a street deputy in Orlando, FL on the swing shift. You're not going to be able to tell me much about verbal commands, target id, light discipline, or buildings searches that I don't already know. I use all those skills on every shift. Full reply once I get off shift.
EDIT: I Dont mean to come across as high and mighty, but I don't have time to explain the how and why I know the above skills.again, I don't mean to be rude. I have a trainee in my car for the next ten hours. I'll elaborate later.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
Alaskapopo
05-25-12, 17:38
Who here has actually measured a quantifiable difference after using a brake/comp? Post your data and the drills you did.
Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2
Same gun in both different times. The muzzle brake seemed to cut about .2 from the runs on average. I have all the data on a file some where need to look it up.
Indirectly yes.
Colt with Vortex flash hider and Aimpoint M4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFlJVVZDx68
Colt with PWS 556 muzzle brake/flash hider and TR24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwtbL0tTirg
It seems that lately we have a large number of questions that turn into pissing contests about some members masculinity. Just because someone prefers a bone stock carbine doesn't make anyone right or wrong.
Most of my carbines have BattleComps on them. They also have optics, BFG slings, Surefires, Giesselle's, ambi safties and mag releases. I am left handed. I've not yet read one argument that even remotely convinces me I need to ditch any of my doodads.
As a frame of reference I've carried one for over 20 years on the job and for a year in Iraq. When training for our SWAT team, twice monthly I 've used BC's and never had anymore issues than with an A-2. I fabricated a pair of Viking Tactics type plywood shooting boards that we use several times a year. For these urban prone is just one of the contorted positions we end up in. With a 12.5" weapon it is loud but after being in a structure with 5.56 being shotthey are all loud, comp or FH.
I requested and was given permission to carry my own carbine last year. Before that I added all of the above mentioned parts that were not issued to my issued carbine. For those that say I can't grab a "battlefield" pickup, bull. I can shoot any of them. On my last deployment I added many of those parts while in theater and will again for next year for my next deployment. It's mostly about personal preference. FWIW I also add nite sights, SureFire X300's and 3.5 kilogram connectors to my Glocks.
Ghostmaker
05-26-12, 01:29
I'm a street deputy in Orlando, FL on the swing shift. You're not going to be able to tell me much about verbal commands, target id, light discipline, or buildings searches that I don't already know. I use all those skills on every shift. Full reply once I get off shift.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
First I want to reiterate some things I said about comps' & some I didn't.
Generally, a good number of well known & respected Instructors with reputable real world experience (some known to this site) believe comps' in some part are "blown way out of proportion." Or that in certain scenarios they can be a "detriment". This is also my personal opinion & belief. But in no way am I putting any one down who likes to utilize them. Its their preference & thats fine if they like them... no skin off my back, its there choice of equipment... just like my choice & opinion of Flash hiders is they generally provide better benefits which is what I stated here--->
For me I know that a good flash hider has better benefits & a comp' for defense, or something besides competition doesn't really make that big of a difference. A good platform in 5.56 with a flash hider is very controllable with the right fundamentals & shooting foundation instilled.
For said application I much rather have a good flash hider while utilizing a cartridge with flash suppressant powders .
For me it goes back to a Flash hider being a more versatile part....Like i said, for me.
As I also stated, while applying those correct fundamentals across the board, I don't see that much of a difference in follow up shots, staying on target, or especially target transitions; And especially nothing thats going to actually be decisive in a engagement.
Don't get me wrong, I dont hate comps', nor do I think their totally useless... And I'm not bashing people who like to utilize them for whatever reason or situation, its their preference.
Brings me back to my original opinion... It depends on the user as to whether its a crutch or not.
For Buford... I wasn't implying that you don't know anything about light discipline, verbal commands target id or anything else...
thats why I put this-->
Surely thats not how you meant it. I'm going to say it wasn't.
When your searching, leaving your Weapon Light on the entire time is not a good thing either, especially with the possibility of back-lighting yourself. You have to be careful of that. I'm Not saying you personally do that...
I wasn't questioning you, but instead just relaying my actual thoughts, opinions & real world experience. There was things I knew I could address from your post.
When you said you was terrified of "executing" one of your loved ones without a WML & that you was more worried about the splash of a WML than the light produced from a comp', I wanted to relay my thoughts on it & the mindset & knowledge I teach & employ personally. I wanted to elaborate on the differences of the light being directed to your eyes from a WML vs a comp'. All in relation to using comps' in a particular scenario.
[COLOR="Black"]About this-->
You're not going to be able to tell me much about verbal commands, target id, light discipline, or buildings searches that I don't already know.
I think it should be general knowledge, especially to Instructors & other professionals that we can not presume to know everything about everything & that there is always room to improve your Knowledge, Mindset & Skill, no matter who you are & what level you are currently at.
I'm sure you are experienced & while what you said could, or could not be true, I think its the wrong mindset to have for ANY of us to presume we all ready know everything about a certain subject.
Especially when it comes to all this kind of stuff. Firearms, defense tactics, use of equipment & etc has shown to constantly be evolving in one way or another.
We should always be open to improving, whether its just continuing to master tactics, platforms, equipment that we currently use or learning from each other & evolving. I for one as an Instructor, am a student of all of the above first & foremost, trying to constantly evolve with those things & continue to master & improve my Knowledge, Mindset & Skills so I too can help guide others.
I'm not saying this is you, but I will quote Grant on something similar to this, as its something I've seen all too often-->
"Police firearms instructors can be some of the VERY worst for informationl. They believe that because they have a "title" that they instantly know everything. This would be incorrect.
C4"
I will strictly stand by my original statement. It depends on the user as to whether a comp' is a crutch or not.
Alaskapopo
05-26-12, 01:58
[QUOTE=Ghostmaker;1314576][B][COLOR="Navy"]
"Police firearms instructors can be some of the VERY worst for informationl. They believe that because they have a "title" that they instantly know everything. This would be incorrect.
C4"
[QUOTE]
Damn as opposed to what. Yea their are plenty of police firearms instructors who don't want to admit they don't know everything. We are a bunch of type A personalities so what do you expect. However there are also plenty more gun shop commonados outside of the police field that think they know a lot more than they really do. I see it in the tactical teddy's who show up to the range with all the new 5-11 gear but have no clue on how to use it, nor do they realize that they have no use for it. But they think hey I am cool because I have a 5-11 hat.
Pat
Ghostmaker
05-26-12, 02:19
[QUOTE=Ghostmaker;1314576][COLOR="Navy"]
Quote from Grant-
"Police firearms instructors can be some of the VERY worst for informationl. They believe that because they have a "title" that they instantly know everything. This would be incorrect.
C4"
[QUOTE]
Damn as opposed to what. Yea their are plenty of police firearms instructors who don't want to admit they don't know everything. We are a bunch of type A personalities so what do you expect. However there are also plenty more gun shop commonados outside of the police field that think they know a lot more than they really do. I see it in the tactical teddy's who show up to the range with all the new 5-11 gear but have no clue on how to use it, nor do they realize that they have no use for it. But they think hey I am cool because I have a 5-11 hat.
Pat
Just like why a compensator being a crutch depends on the user. Theres going to be certain Instructors & professionals who think that way. It depends on the individual. I mean of course the issue of a comp' being a crutch will depend on a user because not every user first has those correct fundamentals instilled into their basic shooting foundation. If they have those things instilled in them, then its not going to be a real issue.
Even if a individual has a "type A personality", it doesn't mean they are right to think they know everything, or mean they are less of a moron.
What your not getting is that I meant it as a generalization of Instructors & other professionals who think that way when you look at the last part of the post as a whole. but as I stated, I've seen it be really prevalent with police instructors for some reason. Just like everything else, there are people with "type A personalities" that are dumb as Horseshit & ones with T.A.P that are knowledgeable & reasonable enough to know they don't know everything & are not the end all be all...
[B]OBVIOUSLY its not all police Instructors, just the ones that hasn't learned that yet, or refuse to believe it, or whatever dumb horseshit reason there is...
No Instructor or Professional should have that kind of mindset, I don't care what personality they have.
They are a Idiot if they really believe that. Whoever they are.
Its not just Police Instructors.
I think that was you that Grant said that to, wasn't it? I could be wrong...
I'm not calling anybody out here, I'm just stating what I believe should be general knowledge.
If they haven't already actually learned that they don't know everything... then they have a long way to go.
So why did it strike a nerve with you? Just because your a police Instructor & refuse to believe there are idiot P. Instructors out there just like everything else? :confused:
Agreed. My issue with brakes/comps is that they have no place on an operational rifle.
Why not?
This question was asked in the "ask a SME" section and the responses were pretty interesting.
that said I would take a flash hider over a comp any day, especially if your rifle may be used for HD. Comps will never be used by our military, hiding the flash of the rifles is a far greater tool than slightly faster split times.
You also cant really compare optics to comps. Optics have a clear advantage, they are faster, work in low light/no light, and some give you 4x magnification.
Well technically, since the A2 the military has used compensators vice flash suppressors. That aside we do use compensators on paraSAWS and brakes on Mk12s at this time.
http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/M16TM.jpg
BufordTJustice
05-26-12, 04:26
Ghostmaker:
I am not a firearms instructor. I have too much real-world use to be a highly starched instructor at my agency. I do not care to be.
I will tell you that, if you are not using a white light to ID your target in ALL CQB SCENARIOS where you cannot achieve proper target ID using our naked eye (i.e. complete shit-darkness inside a structure at night), you are doing it wrong. If you are instructing others to do so, you are going to cause them or an innocent civilian harm. You are also setting them up to be the next George Zimmerman.
Using a WL is mandatory for police work....and for HD. I'm assuming you are versed in the various strobing, flashing, *insert cool name here* techniques that prevent you from being localized or from backlighting yourself or a buddy. So I'm not going to go into that.
If you are trying to sell me the idea that the bounce off of a WL that sends 160 lumens out of the bezel is going to be exceeded the flame generated by an A2 or by my FSC556 (which is slightly DIMMER than an A2 when I run mk318).....well, that tells me you haven't done much shooting under those conditions. Period.
This does not make me Johnny badass....but I HAVE done force on force training with simunitions and actually shot (agency shoot-house) under those conditions. So I am speaking from direct experience here. Using a WL is unavoidable for most people if proper tactics and rules of engagement are being employed. If you can't ID or confirm your target and the threat they pose (specifically, size differential, weapon in possession, weapons nearby, etc.), you are setting yourself up to either lose your career if you are in law enforcement, if you have one, or to be staring at the wrong end of a charging document.
Unless somebody is on SWAT or another entry team, a street cop/deputy or HD homeowner is going to be conducting a methodical, slow building search. Dynamic entries are for very specific circumstances.
And, no I don't have the luxury of NVD's. My Agency wont' even put a camera in my car (thank GAWD), so NVD's or any other such devices are a pipe dream. They are, however, ponying-up and buying every one of our 1800 street deputies duty holsters and weaponlights.
I'm not going de-rail the thread any further. But I'm disagreeing with you on this.
Ghostmaker
05-26-12, 05:30
Ghostmaker
I will tell you that, if you are not using a white light to ID your target in ALL CQB SCENARIOS where you cannot achieve proper target ID using our naked eye (i.e. complete shit-darkness inside a structure at night), you are doing it wrong. If you are instructing others to do so, you are going to cause them or an innocent civilian harm. You are also setting them up to be the next George Zimmerman.
Ghostmaker-> Huh, in what part did I say that... In fact I spoke about their PROPER USE...
Using a WL is mandatory for police work....and for HD. I'm assuming you are versed in the various strobing, flashing, *insert cool name here* techniques that prevent you from being localized or from backlighting yourself or a buddy. So I'm not going to go into that.
If you are trying to sell me the idea that the bounce off of a WL that sends 160 lumens out of the bezel is going to be exceeded the flame generated by an A2 or by my FSC556 (which is slightly DIMMER than an A2 when I run mk318).....well, that tells me you haven't done much shooting under those conditions. Period.
Ghostmaker-->Again... HUH? For one, I did not presume to what kind of equipment you use but instead said it depends on said equipment, cartridges... etc. And I was speaking of the difference of how the light comes back to your eyes.... there is a difference... I mean unless you set there and shine your WML straight in your face, or in a mirror directed at you.
This does not make me Johnny badass....but I HAVE done force on force training with simunitions and actually shot (agency shoot-house) under those conditions. So I am speaking from direct experience here. Using a WL is unavoidable for most people if proper tactics and rules of engagement are being employed. If you can't ID or confirm your target and the threat they pose (specifically, size differential, weapon in possession, weapons nearby, etc.), you are setting yourself up to either lose your career if you are in law enforcement, if you have one, or to be staring at the wrong end of a charging document.
Unless somebody is on SWAT or another entry team, a street cop/deputy or HD homeowner is going to be conducting a methodical, slow building search. Dynamic entries are for very specific circumstances.
And, no I don't have the luxury of NVD's. My Agency wont' even put a camera in my car (thank GAWD), so NVD's or any other such devices are a pipe dream. They are, however, ponying-up and buying every one of our 1800 street deputies duty holsters and weaponlights.
I'm not going de-rail the thread any further. But I'm disagreeing with you on this.
I just seen where EL Cid posted some questions about this subject to many of the SME's in the SME section for LAV, Jason Falla, Kyle Defoor & Mike Pannone.
To Buford- :rolleyes:
Fact #1 I never said you was a instructor....
Fact # 2 I never said its a bad idea to use a WML... in fact i said i don't see why someone wouldn't... or rather why people don't is for reasons beyond me, so now your putting words in my mouth cause your pissed..... I was speaking of the Proper way to use WMLs obviously... go look. I also merely stated a fact that not everyone utilized them for once AGAIN, for reasons beyond me...
Fact #3 When I'm talking about the light being directed into your eyes... I'm not talking about holding the damn WML straight to your face....the point is not how bright each one is... which i thought i made perfectly clear... but the point was how that light reaches your eye differently.... theres a big difference in the way that happens and how much light ACTUALLY reaches your eyes. I mean... it should be a no brainer. So your trying to twist what I actually said.... obviously I stated that it depends on what scenario, equipment & ammunition your using.
Fact# 4 Mister force on force. I built my own shoot house that I train & teach out of. I've also been involved in actual engagements in such scenarios... not using simunition. But i'm not going to get into the immature game of measuring dicks here...ok say maybe I did a little bit.
Fact# 5 disagreeing on what with me exactly? The only real reference you made to what I said was about the WML vs Comp' & you didn't even get that right dude. You certainly are not disagreeing with me about the use of a WML cause I certainly didnt advocate not using one but in fact was the opposite & stated the proper use of one.
:confused:
I mean if you want to take things at face value... which you didn't do by the way, you said you was absolutely terrified of "executing" a loved one without having a WML... well that would mean you didn't have 100% confirmation...wouldn't it? Like I stated, I'm not going to press a shot on a target i cant 100% confirm, Light or No Light....That is in no way saying I teach people not to use one, or not use one myself, Obviously I do use them and encourage others proper use of tactics of WML/handheld manipulations. If i took you at face value, that would be a concern that you could possibly have that happen without one...even though I said I'm sure you didn't mean it that way the first go round.
I mean I even said in the second post to you that I wasn't questioning you.
The whole point of my other post was to share my opinion & real world experience of comps' & whether they are a crutch or not which again... I believe depends on the user. The flash of certain comps' can also be a issue when using them on SBR platforms especially.
Again, if applying the proper/correct fundamentals switching back to a Flash hider should not be a issue at all if one first had a firm & strong grasp of those things.
Guess I did play into this horseshit.... Like I said... we keep learning don't we.
Fact# 4 mister force on force training....I built my own shoot house that I train & teach out of. I've also been involved in actual engagements in such scenarios... not using simunition. But i'm not going to get into the immature game of measuring dicks here...
Too late.
Just sayin.
Nice wall of text there, too bad I can't read it because your font and color hurts my eyes :rolleyes:
Glad to read that I am not the only one that simply keeps scrolling down until the blue is gone.
NCPatrolAR
05-26-12, 07:17
Let's keep everything civil or I'm going to start dishing out infractions. I've issued all the warnings that I'm going to hand out in this thread
Ghostmaker
05-26-12, 07:33
But going from a muzzle that controls itself for the most part to a muzzle which you must control is a different matter.
I think that is where in the problem lies. If your letting that gun run itself then that person needs to get back to the basics. You should use those same fundamentals no matter whats on the end of your muzzle.
Ceartas103
05-26-12, 08:20
As a modern day warrior, of it's the case, I've always looked at my rifle as my "sword". Hon it to how it works for you. When picking up another weapon, just use your basic fundamentals. That's why mastering the basics is the golden rule. All of the comps, bells and whistles are just pluses. With that said I WANT A KAC 3T!!
Yes they're a "crutch" if you define "crutch" as a mechanical device that makes doing your job easier. If comps are a crutch, so are VFGs, any type of optic, different stocks, etc.
Basically if you aren't using a 16" AR-15 with a carbine-length FSB, plastic handguards, carry handle, A2 pistol grip and standard carbine stock, your AR-15 has "crutches" all over it.
You should use those same fundamentals no matter whats on the end of your muzzle.
There is absolutely no question about that. Nobody is arguing this point and if someone says it again I will kill a kitten.
I have a few rhetorical questions to put out there to elicit some thought:
Does a comp do work?
If a comp does work, why would you do it too?
If too people are working in a tight area, do they not get in each other's way?
If someone were doing your job day in and day out, would you get lazy at work?
Is semi-auto a crutch over bolt action
Is semi-auto a crutch over bolt action
This has no relevance to the topic.
I'm sure someone said the same thing I'm about to, but just to throw my .02 in...
I voted 'no'. If you think it is, then by that logic, one would assume anything over the M1 Garand is a "crutch" for example, due to less recoil, more rounds per clip/mag, less weight, etc.
Ghostmaker
05-28-12, 18:56
If a comp does work, why would you do it too?
You would so it doesn't become a crutch...
I voted no they are not a crutch with the stipulation in mind of it depending on the user.
I know you said it was rhetorical questions...
People will just have to decide for themselves, obviously, if they are a benefit to them or not, or if they can become a crutch.
But if they do utilize them... they shouldn't Let them become a crutch.
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