View Full Version : market for titanium internals
after many yearf of manufacturing parts for airsoftguns , a few years ago i started milling lowers and other parts for real ARīs
i now stepped it all up and bought myself a 40000$ 5-axis cnc machine , and are now getting familiar with it
just for the heck of it with a just because i can attitude , i was planning on making some internals for myself in titanium , i dont even know wheter this will be better in any other way than reducing weight , but since they titanium coat things , solid titanium cant be too bad was my thought
so my question is would there be any market for titanium internals such as FCG and BCG if reasonably priced?
In the FCG, my first thought was that a titanium hammer might be too light to operate well, but baring that, I think that the hardness and corrosion resistance might be a big win.
Same for the BCG, although I am pretty sure that in that case the carrier *would* be too light.
My experience with Ti is mostly boat parts, and the rule of thumb is that Titanium is half the weight of steel for the same strength, and twice the strength of Aluminum for the same weight. I seem to recall that it is tricky to tool as well.
i guess that the hammer beeing too lite could be compensated for with a stronger spring , but that might cause problems on cocking it , alltho i think the ar has plenty of power for that
on the bcg i did not know lack of weight could be an issue , if so maybe it could be compensated for with a heavier buffer or spring
guess i will just have to run it and test it .. and yes titanium can be a b**** to process but with the right tools everything goes
In the FCG, my first thought was that a titanium hammer might be too light to operate well, but baring that, I think that the hardness and corrosion resistance might be a big win.
Same for the BCG, although I am pretty sure that in that case the carrier *would* be too light.
My experience with Ti is mostly boat parts, and the rule of thumb is that Titanium is half the weight of steel for the same strength, and twice the strength of Aluminum for the same weight. I seem to recall that it is tricky to tool as well.
To make up for the lack of mass, the hammer would have to strike faster. That would give a quicker lock time, but a hammer with more mass tends to be more forgiving and have more reliable primer ignition. It's a fine line in performance when reducing hammer mass
ok great with the input .. my experince on parts mfg have been limited to making receivers so i dont know much on all the internals .. as said it was one of those "i wanna try it just because i can" ideas..
so its good with people who has knowledge , keep the thoughts coming
maybe one of the Ti alloys are the way to go ,, some of them have a greater weight to mass than pure Ti and some of them are actually stronger to
To make up for the lack of mass, the hammer would have to strike faster. That would give a quicker lock time, but a hammer with more mass tends to be more forgiving and have more reliable primer ignition. It's a fine line in performance when reducing hammer mass
IIRC pure titanium doesn't wear so well. It may be ok for a receiver, but I think Mr. Stoner got it right! The Mil-8625-Type III-Class II hard coat anodize is 60-70 HRc which is almost diamond ass hard, and wears well, and is quite light. In some applications pure titanium can be brittle and prone to cracking IIRC.
Some Ti Alloys would be ok, but seriously why? Do the mass calculations, and I don't think you'd be much lighter. And you as a machinist know what a BITCH WOLF Ti is to machine. I just think in some applications one reaches the point of diminishing returns and has to ask, "what's the point?" If just doing it to be cool, then Hell yeah dude do it! But for something to market to the masses, I would't go there.
But it's your machine, time, tooling, and material...so don't listen to me :)
Just my .02
Is there any way to have a durable black coating on Titanium? I'd definitely be down for all of the hardware being ti - like takedown pins, mag catches, mag release buttons, bolt catches, castle nuts, end plates etc. Might be able to save a few ounces. Probably cost-prohibitive and it would have to be true black (even when scuffed/scratched.)
Heavy Metal
05-20-12, 20:07
Titanium is lighter than steel and stronger than aluminun.
However, it is neither stronger than steel nor lighter than aluminum.
Choose wisely.
Ti also has no "give" - it shatters/snaps when it reaches it's limit, unlike steel or aluminum which can bend, if needed.
The Mil-8625-Type III-Class II hard coat anodize is 60-70 HRc which is almost diamond ass hard
For being as hard as a diamond you sure do see a lot of surface wear on well used rifles. There is a gap between Rockwell hardness and how durable a firearm finish is.
A lower receiver & rail system/upper receiver may be intresting. You could probably do some intresting things with a mono type platform.
As to internals, if all of the internals were Ti and the system was made specfiically for operating with light weight componets it could be intresting, but would require a lot of testing.
Could a barrel be made out of titanium?
For being as hard as a diamond you sure do see a lot of surface wear on well used rifles. There is a gap between Rockwell hardness and how durable a firearm finish is.
Hey now, I said Almost:sarcastic:Nothing is as hard as a diamond except...diamond. The thing with coatings like this is that they are only a couple thousands thick. And one thing to remember, unless said used rifle has a spec that specifically calls out Type III Class II, it isn't. An other coatings like what S&W uses on the M&P line, and I'm sure others besides the top tier weapons, it simply ain't the same coating. And surface hardness, and coating depth simply aren't as thick or durable/wear resistant. I have seen some QUALITY rifle like a DDM4V3 that had ~5,000 rounds through it with ZERO visible wear on the surfaces of the Upper/Lower that other lesser quality rifles would under such use.
Basically to keep it as simple as possible, the HRc scale only goes to 70 IIRC...this is some seriously tough shit! It's absolutely positively the best engineered coating to be applied to T6-7075 Al.
If you want harder, and better wear resistance you might as well go tool steel with some super hard coating, or Heat Treat. I just don't think TI is a good engineering material for someone just getting into cutting real receivers...Again, just my .02
If I bought myself a $40,000 CNC machine I'd be looking at doing some small parts or rail systems in aluminium. Seems to be a good busisness model to follow. ;)
I would definatly have reservations about using pure titanium in "moving" internals (primarily: hammer and firing pin)... as it is widely known to be brittle. A Ti alloys on the other hand, have the better of both worlds.
But honestly... weighing cost versus gain, in most AR parts seems fruitless to me.
Suwannee Tim
05-20-12, 20:55
So you bought a $40K machine and now you are toying with ideas about what to do with it?
The bolt and bolt carrier need to be heavy to provide the proper dynamic response. A lighter hammer will result in faster lock time for what that is worth. All the other internals are small enough that weight savings would be negligible.
My Tii experience limited to knives, mineprobs, and other low magnetic signature items. The vendors did mention machining, heat treating, and anodizing were tricky.. "brittle & a pain in the ass"
I would think making low stress items that are presently made of steel. Barrel nut, castle nut, receiver extension plate... would be a good start.
Reduced weight gas blocks & flashhiders would also be cool
I think you're fixing something that isn't broken. Have you actually identified a condition that the material change would correct? If not you're probably wasting your time and I can probably find an engineer or two that can find reasons why it'd be a bad idea. Materials are chosen to meet an application not because it's cool or exotic. Otherwise we'd have dumb shit like tantalum lined AR15 barrels and ceramic BCGs.
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I think you're fixing something that isn't broken. Have you actually identified a condition that the material change would correct? If not you're probably wasting your time and I can probably find an engineer or two that can find reasons why it'd be a bad idea. Materials are chosen to meet an application not because it's cool or exotic. Otherwise we'd have dumb shit like tantalum lined AR15 barrels and ceramic BCGs.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
I'm a mechanical engineer...that's why I piped in with my .02, just don't think it's a good idea. I agree with the above post that with a $40,000 CNC you'd be better served making rails or other components that are quick and easy to make. I don't think there is much money to make if you have 1 CNC. A lower and upper are highly complex pieces that even I wouldn't want to try and tool up for. I think you trying to climb everest when you should be focusing on a walk in the park first
Say WHAT?? How are AR uppers & lower highly complex? Home machinists are making uppers & lowers from both solid billets and forgings all the time
I dont know how well titanium will work for internals specially since you cant get Ti as hard as steel. If you use a high end Ti like 6al-4v you'll probably get 40 HRC while you can easily get a steel over 50 HRC, although I dont know specifically what HRC internals need.
Could a barrel be made out of titanium?
IIRC S&W made an all Ti revolver but had to use a steel barrel insert. Ti has no barrel life and makes for a poor barrel material.
I would definatly have reservations about using pure titanium in "moving" internals (primarily: hammer and firing pin)... as it is widely known to be brittle. A Ti alloys on the other hand, have the better of both worlds.
But honestly... weighing cost versus gain, in most AR parts seems fruitless to me.
Like he said...
Ti has extremely high metallurgical elasticity, i.e. it holds it shape and can be very brittle. Ti as an alloy can be made from black to almost stainless in color and from stiff to tin foil-like in rigidity. I think to get what you want it might be too brittle.
I would like to see FSB, sights, optic rings/bases, etc. made out of Ti... these could be marketable. A Kino with a Ti FSB would be awesome:)
A Kino with a Ti FSB would be awesome:)
What would be awesome about it?:confused:
So you bought a $40K machine and now you are toying with ideas about what to do with it?
no not at all , i allready run lowers and uppers with it and will make a run of rails soon too just needs to finnish the design.. as i been saying in the first post and atleast one other , this was an idea because i wanted to see if it would improve anything , and i wanted to do it just because i can.. and then i wanted to know wheter there would be a market for such parts if i decide do run a batch
With a $40,000 CNC you'd be better served making rails or other components that are quick and easy to make. I don't think there is much money to make if you have 1 CNC. A lower and upper are highly complex pieces that even I wouldn't want to try and tool up for. I think you trying to climb everest when you should be focusing on a walk in the park first
i allready do so, and lowers and uppers are in no way highly complex pieces , been running those for a few years now on a manual mill, and it just got even easier with my new machine this was just to try something new and because i wanted a set for myself, and at the same time run some for others if the intrest was there , but if it wont work properly there is no point in making any at all
militarymoron
05-21-12, 14:09
i wouldn't make rails since Ti rails would be heavier than aluminum ones, so there's no point. i'd think that the point would be either to make something lighter if you can't change the size, or more compact for the same weight. for example, if you make an aimpoint mount out of Ti with the same weight as an aluminum one, it should be a more compact design.
if you make a flash hider or comp, it'll be the same size, but lighter than a steel one.
i'd probably pick comps as the first thing i'd try to make out of Ti, as it'd replace a steel part that's on the end of the barrel. how it'd fare under wear and tear vs. a steel one, i don't know.
i wouldn't make rails since Ti rails would be heavier than aluminum ones, so there's no point. i'd think that the point would be either to make something lighter if you can't change the size, or more compact for the same weight. for example, if you make an aimpoint mount out of Ti with the same weight as an aluminum one, it should be a more compact design.
if you make a flash hider or comp, it'll be the same size, but lighter than a steel one.
i'd probably pick comps as the first thing i'd try to make out of Ti, as it'd replace a steel part that's on the end of the barrel. how it'd fare under wear and tear vs. a steel one, i don't know.
i wont be making Ti rails just aluminium ..
yeah maybe i should stick to parts like that .. seems like internals might not work
EzGoingKev
05-21-12, 17:48
The things I think you could make out of Ti and not run into issues would be:
1. Compensator/flash hider
2. Gas block
3. Barrel nut
4. Receiver extension nut (could be done in aluminum though for less weight & cost)
5. Take down & pivot pin
6. Fasteners to replace things like the grip screw or on mounts.
These would all need to be coated, most likely with DLC.
I have wondered about a receiver extension done in Ti and DLC coated inside and out. You should be able to get it close to the aluminum part but is would be a lot stronger.
I have wondered about a Ti barrel with some kind of coating or plating in the bore so you could actually use it. Ti does not conduct heat like steel does so I would think the inside of the barrel would see higher temps than a steel barrel.
When you figure out what it would cost to do these things in Ti versus the weight savings it really would not be worth it.
Back Up Titanium Sights (B.U.T.S.). Made with a split down the middle to allow for proper sight picture. Strong spring pressure to avoid unintentional discharges. Corrosion resistant, no one likes brown BUTS. :lol:
Sorry I had to. I think there might be a market for back up sights and maybe bipods made out of Ti. People seem to be going after light weight, simple and durable designs. If it can be made lighter AND at least as strong it might work.
What would be awesome about it?:confused:
It was 2am:confused: It could happen to anyone...
IIRC pure titanium doesn't wear so well.
Yep. Ti has poor erosion (not corrosion) properties relative to steel. High friction areas like sear notches tend to wear fast. It is not ideal for a lot of gun applications. Not certain but I believe Titanium Nitride (Ti coating) is very different than Titanium the material.
In my sport of bicycle racing Ti is used to replace steel and save weight for race-day-only-only cogs that cost 3 times what steel sprockets do but it will only last half as long.
If you can source stock large enough or, ideally, create new forging dyes, I know a lot more people that would be interested in a lower with an incorporated buffer tube and/or BAD/bolt release than people interested in loosing 1.8 oz from the guns overall weight with Ti components.
...Just what I'd start off with if I had a 5-axis CNC mill... Just a thought... You could more than pay off that mill... Just sayin.
Back Up Titanium Sights (B.U.T.S.). Made with a split down the middle to allow for proper sight picture. Strong spring pressure to avoid unintentional discharges. Corrosion resistant, no one likes brown BUTS. :lol:
1.) Took a swig of my morning coffee..
2.) Read your post...
3.) Retrieved paper towels to clean the mess of coffee all over my keyboard and lcd.
But your post made my morning! :p
I would like to see Ti RE, Ti lower with integrated ambi controls, Ti upper (might as well) with a black DLC coating on all of the parts.
OP, if you can make a one-piece BAD/Phase 5 lever that's a snug fit, and the color is at least as black as black oxide, I'd buy about 7 of 'em. Both the Phase 5, TROY and BAD levers have much room for improvement. Ti would be perfect, unless it's too brittle as a bolt catch or something. Maybe steel is the best choice, I don't know enough about the metallurgy of Ti.
That's a gold mine IMO. I don't do the ambi-lower thing, so the BAD lever is still the ticket for me.
Titanium internals? No thanks. I love the alloy but it's far from ideal for internals. Machining it is a b1tch, it requires heat treating and coating (TiAlN or DLC).
Making 1911 parts from bars stock -- AND SIG INTERNALS FROM BARS STOCK seem profitable.
I would look at machining extractors for Glocks, too...
Larry Vickers
06-11-12, 08:12
Titanium 1911 internal fire control components have disappeared from the marketplace by and large because the pros did not outweigh the cons - for serious use they are to be avoided
Be safe
LAV
Markasaurus
06-12-12, 09:07
I'd concentrate on making the smaller high wear parts. Titanium cam pin seems to be a natural, same with titanium extractor. I don't know if making these parts out of titanium would be an improvement but my guess is there's a market - perhaps even for a titanium bolt.
I'd concentrate on making the smaller high wear parts. Titanium cam pin seems to be a natural, same with titanium extractor. I don't know if making these parts out of titanium would be an improvement but my guess is there's a market - perhaps even for a titanium bolt.
Why would advise to concentrate on making HIGH WEAR parts no matter what size?
Have you read the posts to this thread?
but to follow your logic.... it would be even more pointless to use it on smaller parts.
on my bike, a 1" titanium hex bolt weighs around 2 grams lighter than a 1" steel bolt. and that is at the cost of strength (not to mention they cost nearly 10 times as much)
the only real benefit of titanium next to saving a few grams here and there would be its very high melting point, which does not really need apply in small arms. as they are not flying supersonic speeds like a jet does.
Cesiumsponge
06-13-12, 13:37
People have a weird fascination with titanium. It might interest folks to know that aluminum, before it was widely available and massed produced, held similar fascination and was with more than gold by weight.
I work with the shit all day. It's not necessarily difficult to machine when you apply proper feeds and speeds, proper tooling selection and optimized toolpaths. It doesn't really belong on an AR. You're going to add weight if you replace aluminum or reduce durability by replacing steel parts. Titanium can't be hardened remotely close to steels and doesn't wear well. It galls. It has crappy thermal conductivity. DLC and PVD coatings are only several microns thick and won't be a magic fix.
Anyhow, you can't just machine something and expect it to drop in and work. Engineering stress tests? Stress relieving? Shot peen? Heat treat? Normalizing, grinding, mandrelizing, etc. While it is easy to duplicate the physical dimensions of the part, it takes a whole lot more money to make sure it functions. While its annoying for me to deal with all these aerospace specs, tests, and certs, they serve a purpose. I'm not sure how lax commercial manufacturing is which is why I stick to known good products. There are a lot of corners that can be cut in this industry.
People have a weird fascination with titanium. It might interest folks to know that aluminum, before it was widely available and massed produced, held similar fascination and was with more than gold by weight.
I work with the shit all day. It's not necessarily difficult to machine when you apply proper feeds and speeds, proper tooling selection and optimized toolpaths. It doesn't really belong on an AR. You're going to add weight if you replace aluminum or reduce durability by replacing steel parts. Titanium can't be hardened remotely close to steels and doesn't wear well. It galls. It has crappy thermal conductivity. DLC and PVD coatings are only several microns thick and won't be a magic fix.
Anyhow, you can't just machine something and expect it to drop in and work. Engineering stress tests? Stress relieving? Shot peen? Heat treat? Normalizing, grinding, mandrelizing, etc. While it is easy to duplicate the physical dimensions of the part, it takes a whole lot more money to make sure it functions. While its annoying for me to deal with all these aerospace specs, tests, and certs, they serve a purpose. I'm not sure how lax commercial manufacturing is which is why I stick to known good products. There are a lot of corners that can be cut in this industry.
This. Ti sucks,
except for the applications where it is the correct answer.
I already use as much titanium in my AR guns as possible. I use a riser, cut 2 ounces by going to titanium 10/32 bolts and flange nuts.
Also using M5 0.8 in several parts, just a schosh bigger and stronger than 10/32.
I am in the process of replacing all the nuts and fastners on my scopes. Getting a titanium grip screw. Allready cut 1ounce.
There would be a market for these because not everyone can afford the services of a gunsmith to reduce weight. I figure up to $40 per ounce reduction would be worthwhile. There are a lot of titanium stuff for the mighty Ruger 10/22 rifle.
I agree
1. Compensator/flash hider; starting with a Levang type
2. Gas block
3. Barrel nut
4. Receiver extension nut
5. Take down & pivot pin
6. Trigger and hammer pins
7. Buffer pin, detent pins
8. Mag catch
9. Safety selector
Cesiumsponge
06-13-12, 20:44
Are these screws made in to proper Unified National thread specs or were they simply the same thread size and you purchased them from an online vendor? I mention this because I've tried Ti bolts on a lightweight mountain bike for curiosity's sake and the threads weren't even to Class 2 specs when I measured it (Class 2 being typical commercial spec). Most of these fasteners are cranked out of screw machines in China with pretty lousy quality control.
Titanium is also a "sticky" metal (I can't describe it better. Anyone that has worked with it knows what I'm talking about). Since it galls and it's "sticky", it tends to seize fairly easily unless you use some good anti-seize. Once you use anti-seize, it changes your torque specs. Aerospace titanium fasteners typically use a bonded dry-lube on threaded surfaces to get around this problem.
I'm pretty sure the "titanium bug" will catch on in the AR market eventually simply because it's such a large and varied market and the markups on any commercial titanium product is extraordinary. I guess +1 to whoever markets these products to make boatloads of lucre.
-Grip screw
-castle nut
-safety
-gas block
-port cover rod
I would be willing to use these Tii items from a new manufacturer. Low stress item i could check the function on w/o much worry.
Barrel nut, bolt carrier, muzzle device.. I, personally, wouldn't be the first user to try these out.
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