PPQ in Review [Archive] - M4Carbine.net Forums

MistWolf

05-21-12, 03:01

In general, for strictly personal reasons, I do not care at all for polymer framed, striker fired pistols, so it came as a complete surprise to me that I found I actually liked the PPQ and well enough to plunk down my hard-earned cash for one, along with a thousand rounds of 9 Wimp-a-meter. I couldn't wait to get out & shoot it!

A PPQ and 1000 rounds of Federal 115 gr FMJs. Let's get to shooting!
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Handguns/20120323_1726532.jpg

The PPQ is a first for me. Not just a single first, but a whole list of firsts. It's the first pistol I've owned to be polymer framed, first to be striker fired, to have a trigger safety, that's foreign made, is chambered for 9mm and it's my first Walther.

PPQ next to a Colt Gold Cup Commander. The PPQ won't be mistaken for a compact, but it's small for a service pistol
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Handguns/DSC_0013.jpg

At first the medium backstrap felt too big in my hands so I replaced it with the small backstrap before I shot the pistol. Muzzle rise and recoil was sharp which surprised me. The PPQ shifted around in my grip, even two handed. In some ways, it was easier just to shoot one handed. I re-installed the medium backstrap. It still felt too big and in frustration, I almost went back to the small backstrap. I shot it with the medium anyway and got the surprise of my life. It was a completely different pistol! It didn't shift in my grip as much, muzzle rise felt easier to control and recoil was softer. Moral of this story? Shoot the pistol before making any changes.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Handguns/MediumGrip.jpg

The pistol hasn't been shot for groups, but it's the easiest pistol to shoot I've ever tried. That's the only way to describe it. Near or far, it's easier to make hits on soda cans, rocks, clay pigeons and I can even bounce empty shotgun shells down the range, one handed or two. It's light and well balanced whether fully loaded or empty.

Trigger is crisp and easy to use. I was worried that the heavy first stage would make it difficult to feel the second stage, but so far that hasn't proved to be a problem. Just aim, take up the slack and break the shot.

Controlled pairs are a bit of a problem for me as I found I can work the trigger too fast and the second shot won't fire. At first, I thought I was not letting up the trigger enough to reset it. Until, during one set of pairs which I simply cranked off as fast as I could, I de-cocked the pistol.

With the trigger depressed and the slide slightly retracted as shown, the PPQ can be de-cocked. I did it while shooting controlled pairs. How's that for a fast trigger finger? (Makes you wonder just how controlled that particular pair was!)
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Handguns/DSC_0008.jpg

First shot broke clean, empty case was ejected, the next round stripped from magazine and chambered fully. Second shot, nothing. Slide was fully in battery and to be sure, I pressed it forward. Further investigation revealed the pistol was de-cocked and the trigger dead. Pulled slide back just enough to re-cock it without ejecting the live round and it fired. Just know that it can happen and it did happen to me.

Another problem cropped up while loading the magazine. Somehow, it's possible to load at least one of my magazines with a couple of the rounds stacked on top of each other on the same side.

Now how do you suppose that happened? Two empty spots on the left side the mag while the right side stack has one round on top of the other
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Handguns/DSC_0006-1.jpg

I don't know what caused it because I have not been able to duplicate it on purpose. I don't usually look at my mags while loading them. It's a habit I picked up from hunting. I scan the area around me and let my hands do the work. When I looked at the mag afterwards, the left side of the mag was short a round and the right had one stacked on top of the other. When I watched the mags and tried to duplicate the problem, I could not. I thought it was a fluke, but it happened twice more when I loaded without watching. Gremlins perhaps? I don't know if this will cause any malfunctions as I did not try shooting it this way.

I have not yet found a dedicated holster for the PPQ. But I did find that the Bladetech IWB Razor for the M&P 9 works very well. It holds the pistol securely and allows a quick, unhindered draw and re-holster. It's a bit longer than the slide of the PPQ but hasn't posed any problems. I kinda like it that way because it helps protect the muzzle from any dirt & debris that might find it's way up the open end of the holster.

The Bladetech IWB Razor for the M&P 9 fits the PPQ surprisingly well and is fairly comfortable
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Handguns/DSC_0015.jpg

A Surefire X300 was fitted to the rails and the pistol shot. Muzzle rise seemed less and the light had no noticeable affect on accuracy.

The PPQ with the Surefire X300. It's wet in the Pacific Northwest, but the rain didn't slow down either the pistol or the light during this brief test. A Storm Queen scope cover is installed to protect the light lens from powder residue
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Handguns/DSC_00072.jpg

Of course the combo won't fit in the holster this way and it's longer on the pistol than I like. I suppose it'll just have to go back on the AR carbine for now.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/CarbineSurefire002.jpg

I like the serrations on the slide. It makes it easier to grip the slide without being aggressive enough to tear up my skin. The slide release is on both sides and tucked in close. Deep serrations make both levers easy to operate. I do have to watch for my thumb pushing it up and locking the slide while shooting, however.

The exterior has a clean shape that fits well against the body when carried and doesn't snag. I've been wearing it as my CCW everyday for the last couple of weeks or so. The factory stippling worked well for me once the medium backstrap was installed. I also like that I can use the mag release much like I can the one on my AR.

It's too soon to tell if the de-cocking is going to be a problem. It was a fluke, but if it happened once, it can happen again. The magazine problem will require further investigation.

Aside from the two strange problems, I really like this pistol. The trigger de-cocking occurred while trying to shoot as fast as I could regardless of sight picture. Slowing down a tick will take care of that. The problem with the magazine might be limited to a particular mag. I will have to mark them and see. But while watching the mags during loading I was unable to duplicate the problem.

I hope the problems are just flukes. Of all the polymer framed, striker fired pistols I've tried, I've not only found one I like best, but one I actually like

M4arc

05-21-12, 06:17

great review, thanks!

Army Chief

05-21-12, 08:02

A valuable addition to our body of knowledge; particularly in that it comes from a seasoned member with no previous investment in polymer guns. Although the 1911 has consistently remained my sidearm of choice over the years, I have tried to keep an open mind about such things. The PPQ is the one gun that has repeatedly given me cause to wonder if perhaps it might be time to wade into these waters.

I can certainly live with the capabilities and capacity of the 9x19 chambering, the trigger seems to be properly sorted-out, and as a long-time P7 owner, I've no apprehension where the striker configuration is concered. The bulk of most polymers remains a concern, though I'm admittedly making a comparison (to the 1911) that is null and void in the eyes of most who have long since moved on to carrying their Glocks, HKs and M&Ps.

Some of this is admittedly subjective, and much of it is not, but my sense is that it is not so much a question of "if" the revolution must be joined, but rather when -- and with which pistol. I honestly don't know if the PPQ is the kurzwaffen that will ultimately carry the day for me, but it is as close as I've seen to this point in the journey.

AC

JHC

05-21-12, 08:13

+1 Chief, very valuable review.

I would expect the over-speed decock phenom to generate intense interest.

Thanks.

B Cart

05-21-12, 10:32

Nice review! I'm in the same boat, as I just picked up a PPQ and it was definitely a first for me in those same areas. I've tried Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, etc., but this was the first striker fired polymer pistol I have loved enough to buy - and I haven't been dissapointed! My dad even liked it so much he went and bought one as well.

I put another 100 rounds through it saturday without a single hiccup. I haven't ever experienced a speed trigger pull decock, but I probably don't pull the trigger as fast as you :laugh:

Thanks for the review!

Gary1911A1

05-21-12, 11:24

The PPQ is also my polymer striker fired pistol of choice. It is amazing how a different backstrap can effect you ability on how well you can shoot a pistol. On my 99AS I have the larger backstrap installed as that works the best for me, but on the PPQ the medium is the best. Likely has to do with how my trigger finger contacts the trigger, but then it would seem the other way around.

jhs1969

05-21-12, 15:49

The PPQ is at the top of a very short list as my next pistol. I previously had a P99 that was a very good pistol, from everything I'm reading the PPQ sounds even better. Please keep us posted as the round count grows.

MistWolf

05-21-12, 16:01

Army Chief

05-21-12, 16:36

Read the back-and-forth on this over at Walther Forums earlier in the day.

While I saw plenty of willingness from folks to don the mantel of authority and critique your work, I didn't see much by way of technical discussion or analysis on how your actions might somehow have resulted in the subsequent malfunction.

Mags won't fall free? Must be that drift adjustment you did to the front sight. [Yawn.]

AC

MistWolf

05-21-12, 17:17

ROFLMAO!

Thanks AC. I needed that

JHC

05-21-12, 17:42

ROFLMAO!

Thanks AC. I needed that

There is a post in one of the PPQ threads here about how a fellow discovered he could de-cock his PPQ in admin handling which IIRC sounds like your method of shooting it blindingly fast. You may find it interesting to hunt that up. As I remember he would pull the trigger as the eased the slide forward to the in battery position or something like that.

ralph

05-21-12, 18:10

MistWolf

05-21-12, 19:45

There is a post in one of the PPQ threads here about how a fellow discovered he could de-cock his PPQ in admin handling which IIRC sounds like your method of shooting it blindingly fast. You may find it interesting to hunt that up. As I remember he would pull the trigger as the eased the slide forward to the in battery position or something like that.

Sounds like the thread I started.

You should have seen the bru-haha that subject started on the Walther forums!

Army Chief

05-21-12, 20:24

I don't necessarily lay blame on the doorstep of Walther Forums. Like most internet forums related to firearms, the WF membership demographic seems to be heavily skewed by well-intentioned folks who don't happen to know a great deal, but who are doing their best to help others by repackaging those things that they believe they understand -- things that they have gleaned largely from reading the advice of others. Reheat and serve is something of the order of the day, and oddly enough, some folks are are actually helped by that.

Show up with a graduate level problem, of course, and you'll likely be trying to have an informed conversation with one or two other members at best. Again, though, this isn't a just Walther Forums issue. I can think of a half-dozen popular (and even worthwhile) sites right now that struggle with many of these same challenges, from HKPro and FNForum to 68Forums and even the 1911Forum. Oddly, among platform-specific discussion resources, only the Cult of the P7 site ever really stood out as something of an exception to my mind -- and I'm basing that on some admittedly dated memories.

I'm not going to go down the path of making qualitative comparisons. Each of these sites has a unique audience, and I suspect that they are all doing some good in their own way. Many of the guys who are confidently dispensing erroneous counsel today will eventually realize their error, and mature into informed, reasonable students of the topic at hand tomorrow. Some will not. True experts will remain hard to find, and harder still to coax onto a discussion forum, but any real learning has to begin with a dispassionate presentation of the facts, and I think that is what you've attempted to do here.

I don't know that our in-house PPQ expertise is at a level where we can offer much beyond the kind of troubleshooting diagnosis that you've already attempted, but the pursuit of truth generally isn't found in offering answers, nearly so much as it is in learning to thoroughly understand the questions. I'm guessing there are a few PPQ users/owners on the site who will consider your narrative, and take a more detailed look at their own pistols to see if perhaps they can't be of some help with that part of the process.

AC

MAUSER202

05-21-12, 22:12

Great review with nice pics! I have over 1k down the tube of my 1st PPQ and have bought a second one:D I too have had the magazine loading issue happen a few times. When it does I can only get 14 rds in the mag and it will cause a FTF about half way through the mag. I have not experienced the decocking issue, but will look out for it. Other than the mag issue, which is noticeable because of not being able to fully load the mag all the way, both guns have been flawless.

I also agree that it it the easiest to shoot pistol I have ever fired.

ralph

05-21-12, 22:50

For full disclosure, I did some minor tweaking of the striker block cam (which is an ear on the trigger bar) in attempt to clean up the first stage of the trigger pull. In doing so, I thought I'd broken my new pistol and would have to send it back for repairs. Turns out, nothing bad happened. I was extremely nervous and hyper sensitive to every little thing.

I also investigated the pistol to see if my monkeying around could have caused the pistol to de-cock during firing. The striker block cam and striker block have no affect whatsoever on the timing of the trigger module releasing the striker. I am open to discussion of facts that say otherwise

When the decocking happened, did you first look at the round to see if the primer had been hit at all? I'm thinking (I also own a PPQ) that since you were tweaking the striker block cam, could it be possible that it's not pushing the block fully out of the way, and when the striker starts down the striker channel, it hits the partly exposed block and slows down the striker enough that it dosen't have enough force to ingnite the primer? My line of thinking is this: If it was working without problem before you started tinkering with it, then possibly something you did is now causing this problem. Maybe I'm wrong, But I'd think that the striker block cam and it's relationship with the striker block would have everything to do with the release of the striker. Altering the SB cam or the trigger reset cam(behind it) surfaces enough, could cause problems, I'd also look at the hook that holds the striker back, in addition to moving down, it also slides back,I'd think any crud in there could also cause a possible problem. When you say you "tweaked" the striker block cam..what exactly did you do to it? Another thought, did you take the striker out of the slide and look down it's channel and see if there's any dirt debris, etc.leftover from manfacturing?

balance

05-21-12, 22:58

Read the back-and-forth on this over at Walther Forums earlier in the day.

I've been following the posts on the Walther forum for a few years now, since I bought my first P99.

For what it's worth, I feel that the tone of the forum changed right after the PPQ came out. Check on the P99 section for threads made before 2011, and you're not likely to even see a fraction of the rudeness that seems to be on the PPQ section today. It seems like most of the posts there that were made by members who "don the mantel of authority", in any topic, are from members who joined right around the time the PPQ was released. I never understood the point of being macho or rude for no reason, over the internet, where you don't see the people you are responding to in person. I doubt the members that talk trash over the internet would be that blunt in person.

The problem is that the members that come off as smart asses seem to post more often than the knowledgeable members that know what they are talking about.

That being said, I have seen much worst tones than what I see on the Walther forum today, in other, more popular forums, for more popular pistols. Most of the smart asses on that forum seem to have come from other forums where that level of rudeness is accepted.

The OP stated that he bent the trigger bar to the point that he heard it crack. If I posted on Glocktalk, or on HKPro, or any other brand specific forum, how I bent the trigger bar and then I had an issue where the trigger didn't reset, what do you suppose the majority of the responses would have looked like? Especially if this was the only pistol that has reportedly had this issue, so far.

MistWolf

05-22-12, 05:45

When the decocking happened, did you first look at the round to see if the primer had been hit at all?

No I did not. When I pressed the trigger the second time, it was simply dead and felt just like it does when the pistol is de-cocked with the slide slightly retracted. When the pistol did not fire, I let the trigger up and pressed it again and nothing. It was de-cocked. No click from releasing the striker only to have it stopped by the block.

When I first got the pistol, it was disassembled and checked for preservatives, chips, dirt, debris, little green men, barrel blockages and was cleaned a lubed. I have been tearing down, maintaining, repairing, modifying and assembling firearms for more years than I care to admit. I have yet to ruin a firearm or render one unsafe to use.

The striker block and the cam are fully functional. If they were not, ignition would be erratic

I've been following the posts on the Walther forum for a few years now, since I bought my first P99...

...For what it's worth, I feel that the tone of the forum changed right after the PPQ came out.
The OP stated that he bent the trigger bar to the point that he heard it crack...

There have been very helpful folks on the Walther forums and balance is one of them. He shared resources with me that I will be taking advantage of.

I don't want to start an inter-forum dispute. The Walther forums have provided good information on the PPQ.

I'm uncertain what cause the cracking sound. Close inspection has revealed nothing broken, cracked or otherwise amiss. It was very late and I was panicked and angry that I may have broken my new pistol. I posted before thinking it through hoping to keep anyone else from trying this "tweak".

For now, I'd like to put speculation about the de-cocking issue aside and move the discussion to other points

MistWolf

05-22-12, 06:46

The PPQ uses a two stage single action trigger and a fully cocked striker. Break is consistent and very crisp for a polymer pistol. I believe Walther claims the pull is 5.5 lbs. It uses a trigger safety that unless it's depressed, the trigger cannot fire the pistol.

The fly in the ointment is the gritty first stage.

(It's time for me to make a confession. I am a trigger snob. Single action triggers must be crisp with minimal creep and backlash with no more than 4.5 lbs of pull. Double action triggers must be buttery smooth with no stacking and simply roll until the shot breaks. When I was monkeying around with the striker cam block, it's because the first stage was rough and gritty with a lot of stiction. I found a link to a PDF that talked about bending the ear (cam) for smoother operation. I don't recommend it. It didn't seem to make much difference.)

The trigger bar rubs against the bottom of the striker block and `along a half circle that is part of the trigger module housing. The easiest fix is to simply apply a good heavy grease similar to Mobil 28. The exact grease used isn't important, but a high temp bearing grease would probably last the longest. Simply apply a dab on the bottom of the striker block and at the half circle.

Just a dab will do ya! Applying a little grease between the trigger bar and half circle will help smooth the first stage pull of the trigger
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Handguns/DSC_0002.jpg

A toothpick can be used to apply small amounts of grease at other points as well. But the greatest amount of stiction seems to come from where the trigger bar rubs the half circle on the bottom left of the trigger module.

You can test this by removing the slide from the frame, then slowly squeezing the trigger. It will feel gritty. Then squeeze the trigger while pushing the trigger bar down. It will feel much snoother. Lube will help.

I would not recommend any polishing. I don't know of the trigger bar is just case hardened or heat treated all the way through. If it's only case hardened too much material is removed, the softer metal will wear faster.

The PPQ has polymer adjustable sights. On the surface, it seems a bit silly. Polymer sights are not as durable as steel sights and adjustable sights are more fragile than fixed sights. Smart thing would be to install fixed night sights at the factory. There is a reason for the polymer adjustable sights and it's a good one.

Foreign made pistols must meet the requirements of Form 4590 to be legal for importation into the US. Form 4590 "establishes certain standards and prerequisites for imported handguns. Those qualifying benchmarks establish the minimum size and weight requirements for handguns under consideration for importation. Each submitted sample can accrue additional points based on the cumulative evaluation of its configuration, design, and enhanced safety features that further contribute to overall sporting and safety characteristics."

Self loading pistols must make 75 points. Adjustable sights give the pistol 15 points allowing Walther to make the PPQ more suitable for service use in other areas while keeping cost down. It also allows the final owner the option of changing those sights. Without those 15 points, the PPQ would have to have other so-called "enhanced safety features" such as an exposed hammer, double action trigger or even a grip safety.

I like that the PPQ has the minimum of controls, just the slide release and mag release. I also like that it does not have a magazine safety (as the BATF calls it) that prevents the pistol from firing when the mag is removed. Walther used those 15 points they got from the polymer adjustable sights to good use

JHC

05-22-12, 07:33

JHC

05-22-12, 07:35

Sounds like the thread I started.

You should have seen the bru-haha that subject started on the Walther forums!

HA! Too funny. OK, you probably have that part covered then. ;)

Army Chief

05-22-12, 07:45

balance,

Don't want to take this too far afield, but I appreciated your remarks concerning Walther Forum. It wasn't my purpose to leave the reader with a negative impression; to the contrary, my sense is that the place is a worthy destination. All sites (including this one) struggle with many of these same signal-to-noise ratio difficulties. The only edge we've got here is that we have much greater-than-usual representation from industry professionals and SMEs, and this tends to help keep the "I think I might know something" crowd in check.

Still not sure what, if anything, to make of the dead trigger issue, but on balance the PPQ seems to offer the right features in the right form factor. It will be interesting to see if/when Walther decides to test the waters with a compact version, as they eventually did with the P99. I also still find it interesting that, for all of their shared DNA, we don't see more direct comparisons to the 99-series and what (specifically) was changed in the generational jump to the PPQ; especially since the non-S&W'ed variants of the 99 seem to be widely regarded as some of the most capable -- and underrated -- pistols on the market.

AC

montrala

05-22-12, 16:19

The PPQ uses a two stage single action trigger and a fully cocked striker.

Actually it is not exactly correct. In PPQ "Quick Defense" trigger (PPQ is version of P99Q Rad, there is also P99D Rad with DAO trigger, that is not sold commercially) striker is not fully cocked (but it is "almost" fully cocked, but sometime almost is a big difference). This "second stage" feel of trigger comes from cocking striker some last 2mm of its travel by trigger mechanism. Striker travel is nowhere as big as in Glock, it is as small as possible, but large enough to provide safety from ND or AD possibilities or firing when pistol is dropped.

This travel is unnoticeable when operating trigger on field stripped gun - trigger looks to work single stage with no backward pressure on striker by sear plate. There is need on axial pressure from striker spring on sear to notice it moves back on trigger pull. We went trough this with FB Radom engineers when they got prototypes from Walther.

BTW AFAIK since 2006 P99 barrels (including PPQ, but not PPS) are cold hammer forged, one piece (unlike original P99) barrels made by FB Radom as sub-contractor to Walther.

DacoRoman

05-22-12, 17:32

Great review. Not to be a party pooper but if shooting the gun fast can result in a dead trigger, that sounds like a major design flaw in a defensive handgun.

MistWolf

05-23-12, 06:43

Vlad, it's not just shooting it fast. You also have to time it right to catch the slide in the right position

Actually it is not exactly correct. In PPQ "Quick Defense" trigger (PPQ is version of P99Q Rad, there is also P99D Rad with DAO trigger, that is not sold commercially) striker is not fully cocked (but it is "almost" fully cocked, but sometime almost is a big difference). This "second stage" feel of trigger comes from cocking striker some last 2mm of its travel by trigger mechanism. Striker travel is nowhere as big as in Glock, it is as small as possible, but large enough to provide safety from ND or AD possibilities or firing when pistol is dropped.

This travel is unnoticeable when operating trigger on field stripped gun - trigger looks to work single stage with no backward pressure on striker by sear plate. There is need on axial pressure from striker spring on sear to notice it moves back on trigger pull. We went trough this with FB Radom engineers when they got prototypes from Walther.

BTW AFAIK since 2006 P99 barrels (including PPQ, but not PPS) are cold hammer forged, one piece (unlike original P99) barrels made by FB Radom as sub-contractor to Walther.

After examining the function of my PPQ, I have to respectfully disagree about the 2 stage trigger and about the 2mm of travel on the striker.

The trigger has plenty of travel (1st stage) before it begins it begins to engage the sear (2nd stage), much more than 2mm.

The sear that engages the striker shows no sign of moving to the rear as it pivots down to release the striker. 2mm of motion would certainly be discernible. The sear angles also appear to be 90 degrees and would not push the striker back any further.

Without pressure on the release sear, it does not move at all when the trigger is depressed. It is only when pressure is placed against the sear as the striker would do, that the sear will move when depressing the trigger

Perhaps there was a change from the prototype to the production model

brickboy240

05-23-12, 10:12

Is the trigger reset on the PPQ more "positive" than on the M&P?

I know it is less "spongy" than a stock 5.5lb Glock trigger, but Glocks have a very positive re-set.

Seems that to be able to buy a polymer striker fired 9mm today, that has a decent trigger, is accurate and does not bean you in the head with spent brass is a tall order! LOL

- brickboy240

M4Guru

05-23-12, 10:22

The reset on the PPQ is very nice, nothing like the M&P's stock trigger.

Seems that to be able to buy a polymer striker fired 9mm today, that has a decent trigger, is accurate and does not bean you in the head with spent brass is a tall order!

I think the PPQ would fit the bill for you. I really like mine, it's an impressive gun.

montrala

05-23-12, 10:26

Perhaps there was a change from the prototype to the production model

Prototype that I tested seemed to work exactly same way as you describe, when observed in field strip state. But, since Walther representative strongly expressed that "Quick Defense" trigger system is NOT a Single Action trigger and striker cocking in fact take place, I was searching until I found out, that it in fact moves striker back a little. Other hint for me was when I very carefully tested trigger pull I found that no element of trigger action itself could produce this slight second stage feel at the end of trigger pull. I was looking for source of this feel, initially in firing pin safety (like in HK triggers), but I determined that it is not a case. This was sear exerting slight push on striker just before it can release it. I think that it can be compared to CZ Single Action (or 1911 with wrong sear or hammer angles), when pulling the trigger shooter can see slight rearward movement on the hammer, just before it releases from sear.

It was some 2 or 3 years ago so I might be wrong if it was 2mm or more or less, but I remember it good. I was in strong disagreement with FB Radom engineers, who had same view, as you have. Until I managed to find way to demonstrate to them, that there is some rearward movement.

Problem is, that it is unfeasible to us both to sit down with PPQ in hand and test it, so I think we should leave it. Especially that there are some people who consider Glock trigger to be Single Action - because of no second strike capability. So discussion is purely academic.

Anyway, PPQ has very good trigger and if it was not priced insanely high by Walther (in EU it is more expensive than HK P30!) I would grab one instantly.

M4Guru

05-23-12, 10:42

Wow, I paid $479 new for mine. A new P30 would have been almost double that here!

Noodles

05-23-12, 12:12

Wow, I paid $479 new for mine. A new P30 would have been almost double that here!

THIS is what everyone seems to forget. The PPQ is easily one of the best values going right now (in the US).

I looked at a P30 seriously after the first time I held one. Amazing ergonomics. I was almost going to buy more into the M&P line because while the HK felt great, it wasn't a gun I'd leave in a truck, or toss in the mud, really USE comfortably, and most importantly I couldn't justify buying two of them for the cost.

I bought a PPQ and haven't looked back and probably won't. It's the Ergos of the P30 with the cost of the Glock, and the trigger far superior to any of them. I can afford to have a spare or replace it. And for me, it didn't hurt the First Edition came with a threaded barrel :)

As for the "dead trigger issue". I call sort-of-bullshit until I see it happen to someone ON VIDEO on a completely UNMODIFIED gun. I'm not saying the guy it happened to is full of crap or his modifications really effected anything, but this is all speculation based on one anonymous guy's anecdote. For all anyone knows the guy had a squib round or any one of a million other possible situations. I sure as shit wouldn't hold off on buying a PPQ because one guy says there is an issue (while they've sold thousands of guns this year without anyone else complaining).

M4Guru

05-23-12, 12:14

I look at it like an inexpensive striker fired P30 with a P7 trigger. Definitely my favorite not-Glock.

Noodles

05-23-12, 12:15

I look at it like an inexpensive striker fired P30 with a P7 trigger. Definitely my favorite not-Glock.

Walther PPQ: You're favorite Not-Glock.

Somehow I don't see them picking that up as a slogan. :)

MistWolf

05-23-12, 14:12

Prototype that I tested seemed to work exactly same way as you describe, when observed in field strip state. But, since Walther representative strongly expressed that "Quick Defense" trigger system is NOT a Single Action trigger and striker cocking in fact take place, I was searching until I found out, that it in fact moves striker back a little. Other hint for me was when I very carefully tested trigger pull I found that no element of trigger action itself could produce this slight second stage feel at the end of trigger pull. I was looking for source of this feel, initially in firing pin safety (like in HK triggers), but I determined that it is not a case. This was sear exerting slight push on striker just before it can release it. I think that it can be compared to CZ Single Action (or 1911 with wrong sear or hammer angles), when pulling the trigger shooter can see slight rearward movement on the hammer, just before it releases from sear.

If I understand your description correctly, this is called "stacking" in the U.S. Stacking is the where the trigger requires increased weight as the trigger moves the sear and is different than the first stage of a two stage trigger. The trigger of my PPQ does not stack once it's pressed to the point that it begins to break the shot. There is a small amount of creep and backlash, but the trigger does not stack.

It was some 2 or 3 years ago so I might be wrong if it was 2mm or more or less, but I remember it good. I was in strong disagreement with FB Radom engineers, who had same view, as you have. Until I managed to find way to demonstrate to them, that there is some rearward movement.

Due to the geometry of the release sear of my PPQ, it actually moves forward a tiny bit as it pivots to release the sear.

Problem is, that it is unfeasible to us both to sit down with PPQ in hand and test it, so I think we should leave it. Especially that there are some people who consider Glock trigger to be Single Action - because of no second strike capability. So discussion is purely academic.

Anyway, PPQ has very good trigger and if it was not priced insanely high by Walther (in EU it is more expensive than HK P30!) I would grab one instantly.

I am a licensed Airframe and Powerplant technician and have been building, modifying and maintaining aircraft for 30 years. That is to say, I have extensive experience troubleshooting mechanical systems for some time. Not to take away from your experience or question your credentials. I am basing my observations on the PPQ I have in hand.

It would be interesting if we could get together and compare notes and study how this pistol works. It's too bad the PPQ is so expensive over there. I think you'd enjoy it!

THIS is what everyone seems to forget. The PPQ is easily one of the best values going right now (in the US).

I looked at a P30 seriously after the first time I held one. Amazing ergonomics. I was almost going to buy more into the M&P line because while the HK felt great, it wasn't a gun I'd leave in a truck, or toss in the mud, really USE comfortably, and most importantly I couldn't justify buying two of them for the cost.

I bought a PPQ and haven't looked back and probably won't. It's the Ergos of the P30 with the cost of the Glock, and the trigger far superior to any of them. I can afford to have a spare or replace it. And for me, it didn't hurt the First Edition came with a threaded barrel :)

As for the "dead trigger issue". I call sort-of-bullshit until I see it happen to someone ON VIDEO on a completely UNMODIFIED gun. I'm not saying the guy it happened to is full of crap or his modifications really effected anything, but this is all speculation based on one anonymous guy's anecdote. For all anyone knows the guy had a squib round or any one of a million other possible situations. I sure as shit wouldn't hold off on buying a PPQ because one guy says there is an issue (while they've sold thousands of guns this year without anyone else complaining).

I am just some anonymous guy?? :cray:

The cam I played with only affects the striker block. The reset cam (the second ear on the trigger bar), which resets the trigger module to allow it to catch the striker and cock it after the pistol has been fired, remains untouched.

There is a recess machined in the right side of the slide which pushes the reset cam downward which pushes the trigger bar downward and resets the trigger module. At a certain point in the slide travel, if the trigger is pressed, or reset then pressed, the release sear will not be reset and will not catch the striker sear which "de-cocks" the pistol. More correctly, it prevents the pistol from cocking.

(Note: In an earlier post, I made the statement the trigger bar has nothing to do with the timing of the trigger module. At that time I did not realize the second ear was the "reset cam" and that pushing the trigger bar down reset the trigger module. That earlier statement is in error.)

Certainly what happened is a fluke. I tried to duplicate the incident but so far without success. I'm not trying to spin the PPQ as a POS or warn folks against buying one, just reporting what I have observed. I've tried to be candid as well, even about my own mistakes, taking my lumps where deserved

ETA: No, it was not a squib round

chilic82

05-23-12, 14:44

Can u give us an estimation of how many rounds were fired after the incident?Have u contacted CS to see if they have heard of this happening with others that we don't know? It seems like a fluke to me also, and nothing to get overly worked up about. No one else has reported such problems and some of them are very skilled shooters with over 10,000 rounds thru their PPQ's. I guess time will tell us if their really is a problem.

MistWolf

05-23-12, 14:59

I can't give you an exact round count. I bought 1k rounds and I'm more than half way through them. After the incident, I think I ran between 100 & 200 rounds without a hitch, some in attempt to duplicate the problem.

The reality is, shooting true controlled pairs, that is waiting until acquiring a flash sight picture between shots, will slow down the rate of fire enough that this won't happen.

I have not contacted CS as I'm still investigating this for myself. If this has never happened to anyone else, I'm sure it's really not a problem. If I hadn't been simply shooting to see how fast I could make the pistol shoot, it wouldn't have happened in the first place. However, as a result, I have been studying the pistol to see how it works and why and what does what which was my goal in the first place

Noodles

05-24-12, 13:05

The reality is, shooting true controlled pairs, that is waiting until acquiring a flash sight picture between shots, will slow down the rate of fire enough that this won't happen.

No, there is a different reality. There is not even an "uncontrolled pair" could make this happen. You either had shit ammo, or ****ed with your gun (which you already admitted to doing, although you don't see how that effected anything), or like I said earlier any number of things including you imagining you got a dead trigger, or whatever else could be going on. But you did NOT press the trigger that fast. I'll explain...

Are you still under the impression that you pressed the trigger so fast that you decocked the gun by pulling the trigger from reset when the slide was in the half back or half forward position which does decock the PPQ?

Because I was thinking about this.... The glock 18's rpm is 1100-1200rpm, Beretta 93R is 1100... Figure a select fire PPQ could be no less than 1000rpm.... That is 1 slide cycle every 60 miliseconds MINIMUM...

So for you to pull the trigger all the way to the rear, the gun fires, slide takes .030 seconds to slide back, then at another .015 seconds it's half way home again (approx of course, the return trip is slower than the backward velocity), you have time to release to the reset position and press the trigger down again? Are you saying you released the trigger to reset after firing a shot and then pressed it again when the slide was coming home after firing that first round, in just the right time to decock the PPQ?

A real 'blink of an eye' is about 300-400miliseconds...

That would mean your reset to pull time is 1/10 the time it takes to blink your eyes.... This did not happen. You may have gotten a dead trigger in the gun you were messing with, but this can not happen by human fingers alone.

You're going to disagree of course, and I'd be thrilled to see a video of this happening. I'd even like to see a video of your fastest doubles with a shot timer or even counting the frames of sound on the video. I promise you they are no where NEAR the speed it would take to decock the PPQ.

MistWolf

05-24-12, 15:39

Not an ammo problem-

First shot broke clean, empty case was ejected, the next round stripped from magazine and chambered fully. Second shot, nothing. Slide was fully in battery and to be sure, I pressed it forward. Further investigation revealed the pistol was de-cocked and the trigger dead. Pulled slide back just enough to re-cock it without ejecting the live round and it fired.

The first shot fired. Second shot did not. Let trigger up completely. Trigger dead. Pulled slide back enough to cock pistol. Did not pull it back enough to eject round in chamber. Pulled trigger. Round fired.

Adjustment made to striker block cam was very small. Adjustment made in left/right axis. No adjustment made to fore/aft axis. Reset timing NOT affected.

Reset cam was NOT adjusted. Reset cam affects reset timing. Reset cam driven by profile of slot machined in slide. Unless reset cam is pressed downward, trigger will not reset. If trigger is not reset, pistol will not cock. When slide is partially withdrawn, and trigger is pressed, or released and re-pressed, reset is cancelled. Slide will close without cocking pistol.

If I had re-pressed the trigger while the slide was opening, the pistol would have re-cocked. If the trigger is pressed with the slide in the position that allows it to be "de-cocked" and held while the slide moves to the rear, the reset cam will be engaged and reset the trigger module and the pistol will be cocked.

If the trigger is pressed, or released and re-pressed, while the slide is in the "de-cock" position and the slide is not retracted but instead is moved back into battery, the pistol will not be cocked.

The slide in "de-cock" position is NOT halfway between being in battery and full recoil. It is roughly 1/2 inch retracted (see photo)
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Handguns/DSC_0008.jpg

These are the facts. My conclusion, based on these facts, is that I somehow let up the trigger and pressed it just as the slide was in the "de-cock" position which cancelled the trigger module reset. Bad ammo is eliminated.

I did not feel the trigger break. Trigger was dead. Letting up the trigger did not reset it. Pistol was not cocked. If I had merely short stroked the trigger, it would have reset when I released it and fired normally.

It would be nice to have a video, but I don't. I tried for a few shots to duplicate the problem but I could not. I got on with my shooting.

I make no claims as a fast shooter. I only made the fast shots to see how fast, for my own amusement, I could fire off a pair of shots. The second one wasn't even aimed! I've never shot against a timer. It's why I offer no opinion on fast shooting or how to train.

Some questions for you-
-Have you studied the workings of the PPQ?
-Do you have any training as a professional troubleshooter in any mechanical field? Or any field?
-If I did NOT re-press the trigger fast enough, what cancelled or prevented the trigger module reset?
-Can you show me how (the actual mechanical process, not speculation) a small adjustment to the striker block cam affects resetting the trigger module of the PPQ?

I don't care if you believe my claims or not. I am just sharing what happened and looking for thoughtful feedback. The malfunction wasn't even the focus of my review.

Something only becomes a scientific fact if the results of the test can be duplicated. Until then, it remains a theory. I would be very happy if this remains an unproved theory

Noodles

05-24-12, 16:23

Not an ammo problem ... Trigger dead. ... Adjustment made to striker block cam was very small. ... Not an ammo problem ... Slide will close without cocking pistol.

All I see from you is "facts" and statements that are true to you but unproven to anyone else. You're somehow being a "mechanical troubleshooter" somehow qualifies you to start messing with parts on a handgun that you don't really know how they work. You suspect, you figure, but you do not truly know. You're not an engineer at Walther are you?

Ok, I used the term "halfway" on the slide to make things easier. I have a PPQ, I know it's not half way to decock. That doesn't matter. At best that last 1/2" buys you .010 seconds to pull that second pull, it still can not be done.

What you're not understanding is that NOT EVEN FOR TWO SHOTS can you possibly overcome the speed of the slide cycle. You're effectively saying you can match the speed of a machine pistol in semi auto even for just two shots. Dude.... No. You may have gotten a dead trigger ONCE, but it wasn't because you pulled the trigger too fast. That's what I am trying to explain.

I'm not claiming to tell you what your problem was. BUT I can do math, and I know what you are saying makes no sense. Let's look at the real facts:

1. Walther has sold THOUSANDS of PPQs.

2. You messed with the internals of the gun without knowing what you were doing.

3. No one else has said they have ever had a dead trigger trigger while shooting the PPQ quickly. For what it's worth, I was shooting suppressed and didn't have enough grease on my silencer's booster, it became a little finicky after 100 rounds of 147gr, should I make a post about how the PPQ doesn't like 147gr?

4. You claim to have pulled the trigger faster than humanly possible. FASTER than a select fire machinepistol actually. But, can not repeat this decocking "issue".

To answer your questions that don't change anything above... I've spent a bit of time looking over the P99, P99c, and PPQ internals. Enough to know that I wouldn't dick with them even if I was a master gunsmith - NOTHING in there is broken so why would I do anything to one?

As a matter of fact I am for my profession a "troubleshooter", so I have plenty of experience with helping people who brought issues upon themselves to a resolution. In your case, my first suggestion would be to get an unmodified gun and never mess with them without KNOWING what you are doing. If you had problems still, change ammo type, eliminate possible magazine issues, etc. Posting on the internet how if you shoot quickly the gun will stop working is not would I would recommend.

It's not that you did not press the trigger fast enough to decock, it's that you COULD NOT.

No, I can not show you how your tweaking effected anything in the gun. BUT you can not show me how it didn't. That's the thing with proof, goes both ways. You show me this issue with an unmodified PPQ and I'll say it might be something. However in that case the statistics are definitely not in your favor.

I get that malfunction is not signifigant to the review. And I'm glad you like the PPQ, it's a great gun. I just wanted to explain you can not pull the trigger fast enough to decock it, so there is no "dead trigger issue".

MistWolf

05-24-12, 16:53

Nevermind

DJK

05-24-12, 18:01

Nevermind

Thank you!!

JHC

05-24-12, 20:38

Nevermind

No problem MistWolf. You posted a 99% positive review. This is the same reaction some posters got a few years ago when they said to the effect "my M&P 9mms won't group for shit at any longer distance". And they'd get dog-piled about the shooter's skill and probably see counter posted pictures of tight one hole groups at 7 yards. A nasty habit btw that persists on most gun boards to this day (showing 7 yard groups as evidence of how mechanically accurate any given pistol is) :shout: .

The PPQ is a pretty big success. It'll all shake out over time.

TAZ

05-24-12, 22:53

Thanks for the write up. The PPQ or another MP9 are on my shopping list as my reloading time dwindles and 45 cost go up. Need something that I can train with more cost effectively.

The dead trigger thing seems odd to say the least. I think there is merit to the argument that it's next to impossible to pull the trigger faster than the slide can cycle, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Any chance that the dead trigger happens for the same reason as it can happen to the MP - Weak sear spring that allows the sear to lag behind the striker moving forward?

Another thing to consider is the possibility that the slide hangs for a sight bit if time in that out of battery position and fully seats as you pull the trigger. From some of the pics I have seen of the PPQ it seems that the trigger bar and striker block interface was a narrow channel instead of a flat button like the Glock or MP. Any chance there is a burr or something else that is causing some drag?

Aries144

05-25-12, 00:55

MistWolf, thanks for the review. I appreciate all the time you've spent examining this matter. I especially appreciate the picture and information pointing out the reason of the grittiness in the trigger, due to lighting conditions, I failed to even notice the half-round protrusion! My thanks!

I just spent two hours examining my PPQ and have reached a conclusion: This occurrence is mechanically possible.

It bears great similarity to pulling the trigger of an AR15 or AK after the 'rear' of the carrier passes the highest point of the hammer, allowing the hammer to follow the carrier forward.

It is mechanically possible, however unlikely, to pull the trigger while the slide of the PPQ or the bolt assembly of an AR/AK is traveling forward- the time window is just very short.

On the PPQ, the 'scallop' in the slide and the shape/position of the rearmost 'hump' on the trigger bar are what perform the same function as the disconnector on an AR or AK.

In examining my gen 2 Glock19, I noticed that the 'scallop' and its functional equivalent of the rear 'hump' on the PPQ's trigger bar, keeps the trigger 'disconnected' on the Glock until the slide is within 1.5-2mm of its forward most position.

Further:

The PPQ's trigger only stays 'disconnected' until the slide is 9mm from its forward most position, anywhere within which the trigger is 'active' and may trip the sear when pulled, releasing the striker.

The PPQ's striker block safety cannot be disengaged unless the slide is within about 1mm of its fully forward position.

This leaves about an 8mm window within which the trigger could be pulled during the slide's forward movement which would release the striker but not fire a round.

I don't know the engineering decisions that led to the length of the scallop in the PPQ's slide, but it appears that reducing the length that this scallop projects forward or increasing the forward reach of the rear most 'hump' of the trigger bar would significantly reduce the aforementioned window and thereby reduce the likelihood of this occurrence.

hickuleas

05-25-12, 01:51

Good review. I also really like the PPQ. A quality german made semi-auto pistol for a good price.

balance

05-25-12, 08:20

Thank you for the review MistWolf.

Don't want to take this too far afield, but I appreciated your remarks concerning Walther Forum. It wasn't my purpose to leave the reader with a negative impression; to the contrary, my sense is that the place is a worthy destination.

No problem. I took your previous post as an honest opinion, and for what it's worth, I agree.

I don't know the engineering decisions that led to the length of the scallop in the PPQ's slide, but it appears that reducing the length that this scallop projects forward or increasing the forward reach of the rear most 'hump' of the trigger bar would significantly reduce the aforementioned window and thereby reduce the likelihood of this occurrence.

It probably has to do with the P99's DA trigger. It needs to have a longer length of travel to fire the pistol. The two pistols are extremely similar internally. I assume that Walther didn't feel the need to change the design all that much, since the PPQ is pretty much a SAO P99.

PPQ on the left - P99 on the right

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n524/balance740/100_0786.jpg

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n524/balance740/100_0785.jpg

This is possible on the P99 as well, though I haven't heard of anyone having this issue on the P99. The design is over 15 years old, and this is the first I've heard of this issue.

Army Chief

05-25-12, 10:15

Great post.

I don't mean to infuse a 101-level shunt, but while we have a knowledgeable cohort assembled, I wanted to gather a few thoughts on the similarities and differences between the PPQ and the P99QA from which (I presume) it was derived. Are there significant differences between the two in terms of operating characteristics or shootability?

Those of us who admired the P99 from afar over the years were often left to wonder what was being done with the gun over three successive generations and at least that many trigger changes (AS, DAO, QA ...). This comparison page (http://gforcefitness.us/walthercomp.htm) from elsewhere on the web certainly helps to shed some light on the matter, but I'm interested in the thoughts of members who have familiarity with the full line of 99-series pistols that led to the current PPQ.

AC

balance

05-25-12, 12:40

I don't mean to infuse a 101-level shunt, but while we have a knowledgeable cohort assembled, I wanted to gather a few thoughts on the similarities and differences between the PPQ and the P99QA from which (I presume) it was derived. Are there significant differences between the two in terms of operating characteristics or shootability?

The PPQ is more similar to the P99 AS (DA/SA) than the P99 QA (partially pre-cocked striker, similar to a Glock).

The PPQ is a P99 AS with updated ergonomics, and with the DA trigger taken out of the design. With the P99 AS in SA mode, the two pistols function identically. Putting a P99 AS slide on a PPQ will result in a functioning pistol, that functions identically to a factory PPQ. The PPQ has a heavier trigger return spring which results in a heavier take-up until the trigger break.

Those of us who admired the P99 from afar over the years were often left to wonder what was being done with the gun over three successive generations and at least that many trigger changes (AS, DAO, QA ...). This comparison page from elsewhere on the web certainly helps to shed some light on the matter, but I'm interested in the thoughts of members who have familiarity with the full line of 99-series pistols that led to the current PPQ.

Here is a link to the P99 FAQ, which has a lot of interesting information on it:

http://www.gunfaqs.org/P99FAQ/index.html

There is debate between members on the Walther forum on how many changes are required on the P99 in order to designate a new generation.

http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/faq-p99/11576-p99-1-1-5-2-3-generation-differences-2.html

In my opinion, there were three, with various small changes made to different models over the years. The first generation was made from 1997-2004. The second generation was made only in 2004. The third, and current generation, has been made since 2005.

The first generation was the original. Depending on the year it was produced, 1st generation models with either have the logo and serial number roll marked or laser engraved. Walther went through a few different distributors when they brought the P99 to the US, starting with Interarms, and finally settling with S&W, who is still the official importer of Walther pistols today.

The second generation came out in 2004. The "ski-hump" was removed from the inside of the trigger guard. It was originally placed there to prevent gloves from going under the trigger as it was being pulled back, but some people complained that it rubbed their finger when pulling the trigger, causing soreness, so Walther took it out. The frame was made slightly thicker around the thumb rest area, changing the ergonomics a little. The front of the trigger guard was rounded, I assume to aid in holstering. The slide serrations were made taller and larger, making them easier to grab onto. The rail changed from a proprietary rail to a S&W rail, which is basically a universal rail with that one notch more to the rear than where it is on say, a Glock.

The third generation was simply a second generation P99 with a longer mag release.

There have been small changes made here and there between the generations as well. The slide release spring design, the locking block design, sear housing design, as well as other small parts, have been either tweaked, changed, or redesigned since the original P99 was released. Walther also started polishing some of the internals over the years as well. My first generation P99 doesn't have a shiny feedramp like the third generation models do, and I think some surfaces that effect the trigger pull were polished in later models as well.

Currently, S&W only imports the third generation P99 AS with the single-sided slide release. As far as I know, all other countries that import the P99, since 2004, get the version with the ambidextrous slide release levers. Only a few P99 models with the ambidextrous slide release levers came in to the US, as a special package named "night sight defense kit", or something like that.

There were three trigger types used on the P99.

The AS trigger (DA/SA), is the original trigger that came on the P99. Walther didn't designate it the "AS trigger" until the QA and DAO models were released. Walther states that the DA pull is set at 12lbs, and the SA pull at around 5lbs, but in reality the DA pull is around 9-10lbs, and the SA is around 4lbs.

The QA trigger (partially pre-cocked striker), is similar to a Glock trigger, though it is heavier at around 8lbs, and has a reset which is longer than on the AS model. The QA models were discontinued after the release of the PPQ. The PPQ replaced the P99 QA on the product line-up, since it uses a constant trigger pull from the first to the last shot, like the QA, though the internals are more similar to the P99 AS than the P99 QA model, which it replaced.

The DAO models are no longer imported to the US, but they are still being made for agency contracts in Europe. It has a trigger similar in length and weight to the DA trigger pull of the AS model.

The PPQ is like a mix and match of different parts and designs that were already in use in other Walther polymer pistols. The frame and slide are similar to the ones used on the P99Q (2008), and the internals are similar to the ones used on the P99 AS.

If I had a choice on which trigger type and which generation P99 to buy, it would be the third generation with the AS trigger, preferably with the ambidextrous slide release lever if I could find one since I am a lefty. Though this is just a preferance. My first generation P99 has gone through thousands of rounds without a malfunction, and the generational changes were more of a product improvement to the design than a necessary change.

gtmtnbiker98

05-25-12, 13:27

This is an informative thread. I currently own two PPQ's and just ordered a P99 AS today (before the P99's disappear forever). Love these guns!! I also own a PPS that is my BUG, never leaves my left pocket (it's my modern J-frame). Before this is taken out of context, I'm not saying the P99 is being discontinued, but who knows how long they'll continue manufacturing both product lines.

balance

05-26-12, 09:35

This is an informative thread. I currently own two PPQ's and just ordered a P99 AS today (before the P99's disappear forever). Love these guns!! I also own a PPS that is my BUG, never leaves my left pocket (it's my modern J-frame).

You really jumped in with both feet. :D

I had the same reaction:

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n524/balance740/100_0787.jpg

Just a random piece of information, but you can use the decocking button as a striker block when holstering. Just keep it pressed down, and the striker will not reach the primer if somehow the trigger is pulled.

MistWolf

05-26-12, 16:42

Did you know the 1911 was originally designed without an external safety? John Moses Browning intended the 1911 to be carried with a round in the chamber and hammer cocked so the shooter only had to draw and fire. But the Army brass was uncomfortable with that and they required an external safety be added that had to be actively disengaged by the shooter.

That's what I like about the PPQ, it fits Browning vision of a pistol the shooter can just draw and fire without having to worry about additional safeties or compromising the trigger pull. It has enough safety features to prevent negligent discharges but none to impair function or reliability. I think John B. would approve.

One so-called "safety" feature the PPQ lacks is the magazine disconnect which adds complexity for no gain in safety and is another thing to cause malfunctions. Whether or not the mag disconnect has any tactical application I will leave for others to debate. I simply don't want a pistol that doesn't allow the option of being fired without the mag in place. The lack of magazine disconnect in the PPQ is a big plus in my book.

I do not like loaded chamber indicators. Again, it's usually added complexity for no gain as most LCIs are an indicator that sticks up when there is a case in the chamber or a hole cut to allow visual verification. Both lessen support of the cartridge during firing. However, the LCI of the PPQ is different and very clever. Walther simply added a small cut and a dab of red paint to an area of the slide that can only be seen when the ejector engages the rim of a chambered round. In this way, the PPQ picks up 5 importation points without added complexity or weakening the chamber. Simple and efficient.

The use of a striker keeps with the theme of simple efficiency. Faster lock times, positive ignition and more compact design. But the trigger module betrays it's German heritage in it's beautifully engineered complexity and uniquely Teutonic quirkiness. The fit and workings of all those small pieces is impressive. It all works because the break is positive, consistent and feels wonderful. (In my opinion, it's the trigger where Gaston Glock missed the mark.) Much of the grittiness of the first stage has gone away with lube and shots fired and is now much smoother.

Magazine changes are easy. Mags fall away with a simple press of the mag release and insertion is effortless. Magazine lock is positive and consistent and easy to achieve. It is possible to slam the mags in hard enough to release the slide on my PPQ. Some complain the release is different from the American button release, but I much prefer it. Hit the lever with the trigger finger. Not only does the shooter not have to change grip to do so, but it's a motion that's very similar to releasing the mag of an AR.

A Surefire X300 was installed and used after the sun went down during the last range session. The X300 is surprisingly light and very bright. The sights line up with the center of the pool of light and hits easy to make. The three dots were lost in the darkness making the sights all black. I find I prefer the sights to be all black and the three dots more than a little distracting.

The PPQ seems to be a contradiction. It squirms in my hands (I need to get serious finding a good two handed grip) and has more than the usual amount of muzzle rise, yet it's easy to shoot and inspires confidence. When I miss, I know it's me and find I miss less often with the PPQ than I usually do

mtdawg169

05-31-12, 09:53

The reset on the PPQ is very nice, nothing like the M&P's stock trigger.

I think the PPQ would fit the bill for you. I really like mine, it's an impressive gun.

I tried out a PPQ yesterday to satisfy my curiosity. The trigger was simply the best out of the box trigger I've ever felt in a polymer striker fired gun. Clean break, very little overtravel, and a short positive reset. I think it will probably be my next purchase. I just wish I had tried one before recently getting a gen3 G19.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

brickboy240

05-31-12, 12:45

The more I hear about the PPQ and the more I get beaned in the head with brass from my G19...I am really thinking of ditching the G19 for the PPQ and not trying to fix the thing.

Life is just too short and time is too tight to tinker forever.

I'd rather be shooting! LOL

- brickboy240

gtmtnbiker98

05-31-12, 13:51

montrala

05-31-12, 14:41

I'm sure you wouldn't be disappointed if you did.

PPQ is this kind of pistol, that makes real HKool-Aid drinker (like me :ph34r:) think: "I wish that it was HK PPQ... but I can take it from Walther" :jester:

Palmguy

05-31-12, 18:08

Finally got to handle one of these yesterday, been wanting to for awhile. Fell in love. If it had been a 9mm, I may have bought it.

gtmtnbiker98

06-01-12, 11:12

PPQ is this kind of pistol, that makes real HKool-Aid drinker (like me :ph34r:) think: "I wish that it was HK PPQ... but I can take it from Walther" :jester:No doubt, it even made me pick up a new P99 AS when I was picking up my USP Expert 9mm. In comparison, I think that the 'AS' trigger is (gasp) a tad better than the 'QD.'

Hart

06-01-12, 14:04

OP, I'm assuming that you completely stripped the PPQ, any areas one needs to be cautious, difficulties or was the process releatively easy and problem free.

montrala

06-01-12, 15:17

No doubt, it even made me pick up a new P99 AS when I was picking up my USP Expert 9mm. In comparison, I think that the 'AS' trigger is (gasp) a tad better than the 'QD.'

"AS" trigger is essentially Single Action trigger with added safety of longer first shot pull. I liked P99 AS very much. Actually I was all about buying P99 AS as my first own centerfire handgun. But when I came to Walther distributor with my "buying permit" from Police, they had first delivery of HK pistols. I made mistake of taking P2000 GPM with V0 trigger in my hands... and instead of P99 AS I got P2000 ;)

balance

06-01-12, 15:41

OP, I'm assuming that you completely stripped the PPQ, any areas one needs to be cautious, difficulties or was the process releatively easy and problem free.

Thanks to TANFOGLIO on the Walther forum for making these next two helpful threads.

Dis-assembly:

http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/faq-ppq/20739-disassembly-ppq-step-step.html

Re-assembly:

http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/faq-ppq/20740-reassembly-ppq-step-step.html

Walther does not recommend regular owners taking the pistol down that far, and even armorers aren't supposed to take apart the sear housing, from what I hear.

"AS" trigger is essentially Single Action trigger with added safety of longer first shot pull. I liked P99 AS very much. Actually I was all about buying P99 AS as my first own centerfire handgun. But when I came to Walther distributor with my "buying permit" from Police, they had first delivery of HK pistols. I made mistake of taking P2000 GPM with V0 trigger in my hands... and instead of P99 AS I got P2000

I can't help but wonder if H&K got the idea of the LEM trigger from the AS trigger of the P99. The two are completely different mechanically, but they feel the same, for the first shot at least.

Hart

06-01-12, 17:52

Thanks for the info, it just didn't look like a simple disassembly/reassembly process. Was hoping this was not the case

MistWolf

06-01-12, 22:20

OP, I'm assuming that you completely stripped the PPQ, any areas one needs to be cautious, difficulties or was the process releatively easy and problem free.

I have only gone as far as removing the striker & striker block and trigger module. I need to clear off my work bench and pick a time when I can have a couple of hours uninterrupted time before I attempt to tear it down any further than that (at the moment, there is an Argentine FAL kit on the bench awaiting assembly on an Argy receiver)

If you do attempt an extensive teardown, be aware there are plenty of small parts & springs that can get lost and it looks like it'd be an awkward task

MistWolf

06-03-12, 08:22

Just for fun, a short video-
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Handguns/th_DSC_0024-1.jpg (http://s115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Handguns/?action=view&current=DSC_0024-1.mp4)

azeriosu85

06-07-12, 11:55

i LOVE mine, but man is it a Rattle-Trap hahaha, not that this is a bad thing as it eats EVERYTHING, and puts it all into tight holes. Just alot of play in slide to frame fit. slide to barrel and rear is all tight however like every other PPQ. All in all, best pistol, for ME ,that i have had the pleasure of owning...and ive owned most. Actually looking to trade off my last glock for another one at this time. OH! and two VERY good videos displaying the potential first one is a Walther shooting team member

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4nVdnUcu5o&list=FLjqTQfLyv8h8sSCGtuEOJ4Q&index=13&feature=plpp_video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjL6GijpDW8&list=LLjqTQfLyv8h8sSCGtuEOJ4Q&feature=mh_lolz

montanadave

06-07-12, 12:46

azeriosu85

06-07-12, 12:55

Whoever "Hans" is in that first clip, he has got some serious meathooks. Him holding that PPQ looks like me holding my PPS.

i cannot find it at the moment, but he is on the german walther team, and has reportedly put over 90k 9mm (NATO pressured rounds) through his personal PPQ without fail.

also lets not forget the obligatory Smiley Face by a PPQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWuFDRnuDMg

MistWolf

06-07-12, 19:10

Hans is the team captain and is a member of the Walther forums

balance

06-08-12, 07:30

i cannot find it at the moment, but he is on the german walther team, and has reportedly put over 90k 9mm (NATO pressured rounds) through his personal PPQ without fail.

Here is the thread:

http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/ppq/16588-walther-ppq-9x19-video.html

also lets not forget the obligatory Smiley Face by a PPQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWuFDRnuDMg

:D

DrMoebius

06-09-12, 18:44

The fly in the ointment is the gritty first stage...You can test this by removing the slide from the frame, then slowly squeezing the trigger. It will feel gritty. Then squeeze the trigger while pushing the trigger bar down. It will feel much smoother. Lube will help. Hi MistWolf, I'm new here, but followed your thread over on the Walther Forum. I appreciate the amount of effort you have put into understanding the inner-workings of the PPQ.

To be honest, I really couldn't understand what you were talking about with "gritty first stage" until I read your explanation above. I removed the slide, held down the bar, and now see what you were talking about. It is minor - correction: very minor, but it is there. I think this would be more an issue for serious competitive shooters who are used to highly polished triggers than self-defense-only or recreational types.

A friend of mine has a highly-tuned .357 Mag, and I would have never known how truly smooth a trigger could be if I hadn't shot it. I suppose once you get used to something like that, anything else stands out like a sore thumb.
What you're not understanding is that NOT EVEN FOR TWO SHOTS can you possibly overcome the speed of the slide cycle. You're effectively saying you can match the speed of a machine pistol in semi auto even for just two shots. Dude.... No. You may have gotten a dead trigger ONCE, but it wasn't because you pulled the trigger too fast. That's what I am trying to explain...

It's not that you did not press the trigger fast enough to decock, it's that you COULD NOT. Not to dig up an old argument or bash MistWolf, I'm actually interested in this as an academic exercise.

"Biomechanics of Lethal Force Encounters - Officer Movements (http://www.forcescience.org/articles/biomechanics.pdf)"(.pdf) by Bill Lewinski, Ph.D (The Police Marksman, Nov/Dec 2002) details the results of a controlled study of officer reaction time for drawing, sighting, and firing single and repeated shots. 68 officers in the LAPD were tested
1. Finger on the trigger - simple, unsighted reaction time - 0.35 seconds
5. Time to fire a second round in a series of three (w/ sight picture) - 0.38 seconds
6. Time to fire a third round in a series of three (w/ sight picture) - 0.36 seconds However, here is a video of what some people are claiming is the fastest semi-auto shooter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DpCellB_UQ) in the world who got off 8 rounds in 1 second or 0.125 seconds per round. Maybe there are faster semi-auto shooters out there, but this should provide a decent standard.

Here's an interesting web test for finger reaction time (http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php). Granted, pulling a trigger is far different than tapping a mouse button. But, it should give a decent indication of an individual's reaction time under near perfect conditions without factors like trigger weight and recoil.

More importantly, the web test has a cumulative statistics page for 4.8 million clicks (http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php) of the test that have occurred.
The average (median) reaction time is 215 milliseconds. Take a close look at the Overall Distribution of Reaction Times chart.

Now, I couldn't find any hard numbers on the web about cycling times for semi-auto pistols, let alone 9mm. But, there are YouTube videos of people bump-firing stock Glocks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbm8jqcc8sw) at what seems to be >600+rpm(30 round clip in ~2-3secs), Glock 19 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgoQ_7T47ig) (17 or 19 rounds in 1-1.5 seconds), also Glock 17 Bumpfire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqZ2jEqy464).

For those unfamiliar with "bump-firing", what is happening is that the shooters are holding something in a fixed point within the trigger guard and allowing the recoil of the pistol to jackhammer the trigger back and forth against the fixed rod. The fastest methods, like in the videos above, use the equivalent of a wooden dowel or something else hard held firmly in place at a 90 degree angle to the trigger.

I'm guessing it is physically impossible for MistWolf to have pulled the trigger that fast. Although, it is possible that he had a single bump-fire like occurrence.

So, keeping it very conservative, let's assume the PPQ can at least cycle as fast as those Glocks - 600 rounds per minute, or 0.1 seconds. But, in MistWolf's situation, he was talking about a followup trigger pull at 1/2 to 3/4 slide travel or cycle, meaning that it would have had to have happened in the range of ~0.05-0.075 seconds. That means it had to happen 25%-50% faster than the those sustained bump-fire videos. Or, approximately twice as fast as the 8-shots-in-one-second first video(0.125 seconds).

The probability of that is vanishingly low to possibly non-existent

Now, if I've gotten the math wrong, or made some embarrassingly flawed assumptions, please don't hold back. I'm not an armorer, expert shooter, physicist, mathematician, or engineer. My goal isn't to ridicule anyone, but to suggest a basic structure to ascertain if it is humanely possible to pull a trigger faster than the cycle of a semi-auto pistol.

If it is, then MistWolf's claim has possible merit and this should be a possible issue for anyone considering the PPQ as a combat or duty weapon. If it is not, then it is time start focusing on other possible causes of his failure to fire because it could be a matter of life and death for a PPQ owner.

Sorry for the long post as my first....

azeriosu85

06-13-12, 12:02

checked the "contact" areas while manipulating the trigger with the slide off today. found both contact spots with the trigger bar, put some oil on the spots, and BINGO!! wow what a difference it makes in initial take up "smoothness" MUCH better, wish the manual stated to put oil there...or i just over looked it:help:

Noodles

06-13-12, 12:58

If it is, then MistWolf's claim has possible merit and this should be a possible issue for anyone considering the PPQ as a combat or duty weapon. If it is not, then it is time start focusing on other possible causes of his failure to fire because it could be a matter of life and death for a PPQ owner..

You're math is fine, but your limiting to 600rpm makes no sense. The issue isn't bumpfiring. It's that Mist said perhaps he pulled the trigger before the slide was in battery, causing the trigger to go "dead".

Before the slide was in battery means at LEAST the speed of a select fire machine pistol, about 1000-1200rpm for just those two trigger pulls (one shot, pull, then dead trigger). The machine pistols fire right as the slide is in battery, so any calculations have to use this number as anything before it would be time the slide is not in battery.

I talked to MistWolf over PM about it. I'm not sure if he's still under the impression that's what happened or not. If he is we can agree to disagree.

I put 1000 rounds down the PPQ in the past couple weeks. Some dot torture, some box drills, malfunction clearance drills, extreme threat mag dump as fast as possible, all sorts of reload drills, etc. I have yet to have a "dead trigger" with the PPQ, or really any sort of issue at all.

Well, one issue... I picked up a Glock19 and dry fired a bit, went to swap empty mags.... Pushed on the trigger guard to release the mag :)

azeriosu85

06-13-12, 13:13

Well, one issue... I picked up a Glock19 and dry fired a bit, went to swap empty mags.... Pushed on the trigger guard to release the mag :)

hahaha love it, i have noticed i am now starting to greatly prefer the mag release on my PPQ

DrMoebius

06-13-12, 13:48

You're math is fine, but your limiting to 600rpm makes no sense....about 1000-1200rpm for just those two trigger pulls (one shot, pull, then dead trigger). Actually, I considered, and wrote up an even longer comparison, using the Glock 17 and it's machine pistol variant, the Glock 18. The Glock 18 has a cycling rate of ~1,200 rounds per minute, the 17 supposedly 800 rpm.

But, my point was to use the most conservative number reasonably possible(1/2 that maximum) to show that a human being still cannot pull the trigger faster than the gun cycles.

The reason I chose bump-firing as an example is because it removes human reflexes and muscle contraction from the equation after the first shot. The recoil/mechanical action of the gun handles all the movement.
hahaha love it, i have noticed i am now starting to greatly prefer the mag release on my PPQ HK has the closest thing to the PPQ mag release, and it is still nowhere near as good, in my opinion.

azeriosu85

06-13-12, 13:51

i think it was something else besides a dead trigger because he was shooting too fast, i really do. is it something common or a design flaw? no. the exterior of the PPQ is different but the transmission and guts is all P99 which is a VERY proven design.

montrala

06-13-12, 13:53

HK has the closest thing to the PPQ mag release, and it is still nowhere near as good, in my opinion.

I can see difference (Walther release is longer) but I can not feel it when using it, comparing to P30/HK45 and HK45C release. But it is for sure much better than old style HK release from USP/USPc/P2000 series.

DrMoebius

06-13-12, 13:57

bzdog

06-14-12, 21:53

Note you can put the HK45c release on the P2000SK for example. Much better!

With the larger release, I do think the HK is nicer, but both are fine. Agree the "small" HK release is too small.

I've been getting rid of everything but HKs and PPQs to standardize control layouts.

-john

montrala

06-15-12, 03:29

Note you can put the HK45c release on the P2000SK for example. Much better!

I have HK45C release on my P2000SK. Huge difference. It can also fit P2000 and USP Compact. Technically it fits USP as well, but there are reports of problem with polymer mags not liking this release.

Actually I like HK45C and P30/HK45 release more than PPQ release. While PPQ has long one, it is narrow. New HK releases, while shorter, but still long enough, spread little wider and I can reach them faster (I use strong hand middle finger for operating magazine release).

MistWolf

06-15-12, 10:34

Those trying to disprove my claim of a dead trigger only hypothesize why it could not happen without examining conditions that would make it possible. Their minds are made up. The issue is dead.

The Glock and AR are not the standards of trigger quality. In fact, one reason I've never like the Glock is due to it's horrble trigger pull. It works, yes but the Glock didn't become popular because of it's trigger, it became popular in spite of it's trigger. The trigger of the AR, especially the M16 with the three round burst clutch, has always garnered grumblings. It was the trigger that hindered it's acceptance by competitors in Service Rifle matches.

What's ironic about the PPQ trigger getting rave reviews is that overall, it's really just average. The break, while crisp compared to the AR, has a slight amount of mush to it. It's clean enough to be a very good, satisfactory trigger- good enough to set the standard for self-loading pistols, but it's not a great trigger when it comes to feel. (With the first stage smoothed out, I don't feel the need to do any further trigger work on the PPQ.)

The gritty feel of the trigger was most apparent when the first stage was taken up slowly. What was frustrating is that it was the type of drag that was truly inconsistent. Sometimes it was difficult to feel if the first stage was taken up completely or not. With the first stage smoothed out, take up is instinctive.

I compared the PPQ to many different self loading pistols. It has a good, safe trigger, ambidextrous slide and mag releases, has a smooth integrated shape, does not have any unneeded features such as a mag disconnect or decock lever or external manual safety, is light and well balanced. I think it really is a better pistol than it's competitors

Cazwell

06-15-12, 14:32

Noodles

06-15-12, 17:51

What's ironic about the PPQ trigger getting rave reviews is that overall, it's really just average.

Ok, now I think you're just looking for things to nitpick or tinker with. Why would you compare the PPQ trigger to any AR ever? The PPQ is not a $2000 1911 and it shouldn't be. It's a WORK pistol that happens to have the best factory trigger for it's type of gun, that's why people are (correctly) raving about it.

My PPQ is a carry gun, a defensive gun, I keep my range mags separate from my carry mags and I don't **** with anything. I don't detail clean it, I keep it lubed, I sure as shit don't touch the trigger mechanism.

I'm still a little confused that A. You felt the need to modify the PPQ trigger. B. You had trouble determining when the you got to the first stage's wall. Perhaps you had a defective sample? Have you felt other PPQs?

I have 3k down my PPQ and it's not gritty anywhere. I side by side shot it against, Glock 17/19, XD 9, M&P9, M&P45, HK P2000, HK P30 SA/DA and LEM and the PPQ is easily the nicest of the bunch.

What it's NOT is a Giessele, no one should ever compare the two. Don't take offense to this, but it sounds to me like you bought the PPQ as a range toy, which is fine, but do realize the PPQ's trigger is not average as you said. It may not be up to your standards, but I think those must be exceptional if you find the PPQ just meh.

Noodles

06-15-12, 18:01

Started looking at HK P30/P2000/P2000sk... but now i'm having a hard time talking myself out of a PPQ/PPS combo (with room for a P2000 etc since they share the similar mag release and I like shooting DA/SA too)...

From reading your posts I feel like the trigger issue you had isn't one a potential buyer really needs to be concerned about.

While MistWolf may be absolutely correct that he had an issue that let's just say was not ammo related (if he did, my guess is it was). No One else has complained at all about the PPQ's trigger not resetting correctly.

I say go for it. I have the PPQ/PPS combo. I like the pair quite a bit. That said, I find the PPQ a JOY to shoot, the PPS is by it's small/light nature, a little harsh comparatively. Put it this way, I shot 1k in the PPQ last weekend, I don't think I could do more than 300 in the PPS without it feeling like sandpaper on my hands.

I Sold my P99c because the grip never my palm quite right. Oddly enough the PPS with the 7 and 8 round mag fits me a ton better while not being much if any larger. I hear good things about the M&P Shield, I'd like to compare one against the PPS.

If you really want SA/DA, the P99 AS is pretty nice. Although I was never particularly fond of the AS mode, it never seemed heavy enough to me, just felt like pushing air that clicked halfway down the travel and stayed there in SA mode. If they release a SA/DA PPQ or what would be a P99 Non-AS with the decocker where it was, I'd be ALL over that.

Cazwell

06-15-12, 19:50

If you really want SA/DA, the P99 AS is pretty nice. Although I was never particularly fond of the AS mode, it never seemed heavy enough to me, just felt like pushing air that clicked halfway down the travel and stayed there in SA mode. If they release a SA/DA PPQ or what would be a P99 Non-AS with the decocker where it was, I'd be ALL over that.

Part of the reason I like SA/DA is that I've carried AIWB for years now. Carried my M&P 9c that way too... but always liked being able to thumb a hammer when holstering appendix. I am a believer that one can and should be vigilant enough to carry a SF gun appendix carry, but the comments about the PPQ trigger being light and (relatively) short gave me pause.

PPQ is pretty close to G19 size isn't it?

Aries144

06-15-12, 20:50

The PPQ is about 1/4" taller and is almost exactly the same length as the G19. It is a bit thicker overall.

MistWolf

06-15-12, 23:37

Yes, I was nitpicking the trigger (except for the first stage grit- I tried living with it but could not). Compared to the stock AR or Glock trigger, the PPQ trigger is worth raving about.

Compared to the trigger of an S&W or Colt revolver, Garand, M14 and a few other firearms back before the Glock, the PPQ trigger is simply on the good side of average. It seems many shooters have little to no experience outside of the AR, Glock or M9 and thus, they become the standard against which they compare everything else. There are folks who think the feel of the Glock trigger is normal, when it really was a step backward to satisfy the bureucrat at the expense of the shooter.

I am not the only PPQ owner to complain about the gritty first stage. I am also not the only one to find a bit of grease or oil made a difference.

The 1911 is my favorite handgun. The PPQ is a damn close second and it has a permanent home with me

Cazwell, with a kydex holster that covers the trigger, it's my opinion that appendix carry with a PPQ should not be any more of a problem than any other pistol. The pistol cannot be fired if the trigger safety is not pressed and the first stage is fairly long & a bit heavy. Other PPQ owners with trigger scales are reporting pulls of 5.5 to about 5.8 lbs

mig1nc

06-15-12, 23:39

I have HK45C release on my P2000SK. Huge difference. It can also fit P2000 and USP Compact. Technically it fits USP as well, but there are reports of problem with polymer mags not liking this release.

Actually I like HK45C and P30/HK45 release more than PPQ release. While PPQ has long one, it is narrow. New HK releases, while shorter, but still long enough, spread little wider and I can reach them faster (I use strong hand middle finger for operating magazine release).

There is a guy, a site contributor, over on the Walther forum who makes custom goods. He is looking into a wider release for the PPQ. He says it would be a difficult swap due to how the Walther controls are mounted.

mig1nc

06-15-12, 23:49

The PPQ is about 1/4" taller and is almost exactly the same length as the G19. It is a bit thicker overall.

It's a bit ticker in the waiste, but not everywhere. The contour of the slide tapers at the top and does aide in concealment.

...If you really want SA/DA, the P99 AS is pretty nice. Although I was never particularly fond of the AS mode, it never seemed heavy enough to me, just felt like pushing air that clicked halfway down the travel and stayed there in SA mode. If they release a SA/DA PPQ or what would be a P99 Non-AS with the decocker where it was, I'd be ALL over that.

They do make that, it's the P99Q, but unfortunately they are LEO only sales, and according to at least one rep, for Europe only.:sad:

balance

06-16-12, 08:16

I'm having a hard time finding a reason not to buy one. My wife carries a Kahr PM9 and we have a few other kahrs . I've sold off every other auto loader and have been trying to decide which direction I want to go. I liked my M&P 9c, but had bad luck with the full size, and the 9c size just wasn't as preferable as a G19... been looking at G19's again, my buyers confidence isn't high right.

Started looking at HK P30/P2000/P2000sk... but now i'm having a hard time talking myself out of a PPQ/PPS combo (with room for a P2000 etc since they share the similar mag release and I like shooting DA/SA too)...

Part of the reason I like SA/DA is that I've carried AIWB for years now. Carried my M&P 9c that way too... but always liked being able to thumb a hammer when holstering appendix. I am a believer that one can and should be vigilant enough to carry a SF gun appendix carry, but the comments about the PPQ trigger being light and (relatively) short gave me pause.

If you prefer DA/SA pistols, and you prefer thumbing the hammer while holstering, you may prefer the P99 AS over the PPQ. There is no hammer to put your thumb over, but if you depress the decocking button, it blocks the path of the striker. There is no reason why you couldn't hold the decocking button down while holstering.

The P99 AS compact would seem to cover all bases in your case. No reason to get a larger and smaller pistol combo, just get a P99c with a grip extender and all you give up over the full size is a half an inch of barrel.

If you really want SA/DA, the P99 AS is pretty nice. Although I was never particularly fond of the AS mode, it never seemed heavy enough to me, just felt like pushing air that clicked halfway down the travel and stayed there in SA mode. If they release a SA/DA PPQ or what would be a P99 Non-AS with the decocker where it was, I'd be ALL over that.

You don't have to use the AS mode of the P99 while carrying. The only time it would pop up is after your first reload. If you decock after loading a round, the P99 AS will function just as any DA/SA hammer fired pistol would, with a long/heavy first shot and short/light subsequent shots. The AS mode is just another option for the first shot.

The only time the pistol will go to AS mode, is when the slide is racked without your finger on the trigger.

Personally, I think the AS mode is just a byproduct of making a DA/SA striker fired pistol with a forward and rear trigger position. I stated why I thought this in posts #7 and #16 in this thread:

http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/p99/22631-carry.html

There is a guy, a site contributor, over on the Walther forum who makes custom goods. He is looking into a wider release for the PPQ. He says it would be a difficult swap due to how the Walther controls are mounted.

Are you talking about REDFISH? I thought he scrapped that idea, but if he is still looking into this, that's great. I'd buy a set of wider mag release levers.

But even with my USPc and my 1st generation P99, I never had an issue releasing the mag, and those two pistols have smaller and shorter mag release levers than what are on the newer H&K and Walther pistol designs today.

ruchik

06-16-12, 11:34

Doesn't the trigger go back into AS mode every single time it's reloaded from slide lock?

balance

06-16-12, 11:48

Doesn't the trigger go back into AS mode every single time it's reloaded from slide lock?

Yes.

Every time the slide is racked without your finger on the trigger.

HKGuns

06-17-12, 09:45

I can see difference (Walther release is longer) but I can not feel it when using it, comparing to P30/HK45 and HK45C release. But it is for sure much better than old style HK release from USP/USPc/P2000 series.

I think this may be the first time I have disagreed with you Montrala. Owning several HK's and the PPQ I find it far easier to use the HK style mag release. The HK release can be manipulated with your thumb, forefinger or both. (I use both.)

The PPQ, at least for my hand, requires I use my forefinger only and requires I be far more precise due to its extremely thin design. I miss it all the time which doesn't happen with any of the HK magazine releases.

Also, the pivot point on the PPQ release is difficult to get enough leverage close to the base of the trigger guard. You need to push it too far to the front in order to have enough leverage for it to engage properly. I really find any of the HK styles to be far more flexible and forgiving.

Edited to add: The PPQ is a GREAT pistol and I will be keeping mine for long time!

mrosamilia

06-17-12, 11:17

For my 2 cents, I can hit my 45ct and Mark23 much easier than my PPQ as well. I am still working to get faster with my PPQ.

I did lose two months of training with it due to it going back to the mother ship for FE sight problem. Love the gun!!

montrala

06-17-12, 15:14

I think this may be the first time I have disagreed with you Montrala. Owning several HK's and the PPQ I find it far easier to use the HK style mag release. The HK release can be manipulated with your thumb, forefinger or both. (I use both.)

Maybe we differ on this one, because I never use my thumb on those type of releases.

Initially I used my trigger finger, but then I switched to use my middle finger, as faster, safer and easier way to do it. An because I'm lefty, I also use my middle finger on push button style of releases (1911, STI, Glock, CZ, etc.).

While HK, for some time presented using support hand to operate release, Walther at some point clearly designed their long levers to make trigger finger use easiest. This is all body mechanics, to use trigger finger on HK release you must move back it past trigger and then down (I witnessed AD when shooter made shortcut with his trigger finger on way to mag release in USP). To use long releases on Walther, you need only to move it down. With use of middle finger length is not so important (but longer leverage of new HK releases is superior to old ones).

I used HK USP Expert (as well as P2000) for IPSC and IDPA shooting for several years and never had a problem to fast mag changes (unless I fumbled on new mag insertion :rolleyes:).

Anyway, I'm strong believer in middle finger use on HK/Walther type release and this is what I teach people who use this kind of pistols.

balance

06-17-12, 18:04

Also, the pivot point on the PPQ release is difficult to get enough leverage close to the base of the trigger guard. You need to push it too far to the front in order to have enough leverage for it to engage properly.

I haven't heard this complaint ever before today.

Trying to use the thumb to release the slide on either the Walther or H&K mag release always felt awkward to me. This is not how the release was designed to be used, and I see no reason to release the mag on a Walther or H&K with your thumb, since both manufacturers use ambidextrous mag release levers that are more easily reached with your fingers.

Also, while the Walther mag release levers are thinner that what is on H&K pistols, it seems they are thick enough, as I have yet to hear of an instance where one of these levers actually bent or broke. The same levers have been in use since 2004 on the P99.

Initially I used my trigger finger, but then I switched to use my middle finger, as faster, safer and easier way to do it. An because I'm lefty, I also use my middle finger on push button style of releases (1911, STI, Glock, CZ, etc.).

I'm a lefty, and I use my middle finger as well.

HKGuns

06-17-12, 22:05

Sounds like a lefty righty thing then as I'm a righty.....

The pivot point on the PPQ makes it difficult for me to use my index finger to release the magazine. I don't have huge hands and my middle finger is the only one that can get far enough away from the pivot point and get enough leverage.

My index finger tends to press down too close to the pivot point and without being far enough forward I don't get enough leverage and my finger will slip off sometimes.

jhs1969

06-19-12, 15:10

Just fondled one for the second time today, I'm sold, hopefully within the month. BTW, I had no problem hitting the mag release with my trigger finger.

gtmtnbiker98

06-19-12, 18:34

10,000 plus rounds in six months, no issues for me with 6,000 between cleaning.

spr1

06-19-12, 18:42

As to the gritty first stage, I walked around a gun show that had 5 of them for sale and tried the triggers. Two of them had gritty triggers and were BA date codes. My BB date code is slicker than snot all the way through and appears to have a good bit of factory polishing on the surfaces that matter.

mattexass

06-19-12, 21:34

Two of them had gritty triggers and were BA date codes. My BB date code is slicker than snot all the way through and appears to have a good bit of factory polishing on the surfaces that matter.

This. I had a choice between a BA and BB. I picked the BB because of smoother trigger.

DrMoebius

06-20-12, 02:49

Those trying to disprove my claim of a dead trigger only hypothesize why it could not happen without examining conditions that would make it possible. Their minds are made up. The issue is dead. I hope I didn't give the impression that I don't believe you had a "dead trigger" malfunction, because I do.

It's just that there is no physical way it could have been the result of your belief that you pulled the trigger a second time before the slide completed its cycle. Human reactions simply are not fast enough to react within the timeframe you, yourself, laid out - approximately 3/4 of slide cycle. Even if your finger stayed still and the recoil created a bumpfire-like situation, it still would not be fast enough.

As to what caused the "dead trigger", it seems no one a has a plausible idea. And we have nothing to work with as it never happened again to you, nor has anyone else had that problem.

I was speaking with a good friend last night who is gunsmith and has a couple decades of competitive shooting under his belt. When describing your dead trigger problem while rapid firing, he replied - without hesitation - that you likely "short stroked the trigger" - even with the PPQ's 0.1" reset. He said that just about anyone who has competed for a long time will likely have come across the problem at least once. People can't understand what happened at the time, and always think it is something mechanical, but after hours of analysis it can only be explained that way.

BTW, I can feel what you describe as a "gritty trigger". It's just that I'm not a good enough shooter for it to be an issue.