View Full Version : ADCOR B.E.A.R.? anyone have any input?
sinlessorrow
05-21-12, 11:54
found this photo with this caption and it really caught me off guard and intrigued me.
well since I am just a civilian I was wondering if anyone here had any input on this, like how is he able to bring any upper he wants for his rifle?
"U.S. Army National Guard Sgt. 1st Class Michael Nelson, platoon sergeant, and 1st Lt. Brandon Bowden, platoon leader of the security force element of Provincial Reconstruction Team Farah, pull security during a road assessment mission in Farah province, Afghanistan, May 9."
http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/vor033/US%20-%20Army%20-%204/1e57da52.jpg
http://d3.static.dvidshub.net/media/thumbs/450x299/photos/1205/576929_q75.jpg
"Farah Hospital Ceremony"
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7180/6892909584_6a49bd7590_b.jpg
Today must be ADCOR remembrance day as it is the third thread to be started or renewed.
As for your answer. No you cannot simply drop an upper of your choice on a weapon and roll with it. This has been discussed before.
charmcitycop
06-06-12, 19:24
......
IIRC as of early May ADCOR was still in the running to "unseat" the current M4 configuration, making it to round two of the competition. If that is the case you could surmise they would field some of the uppers/weapons in theater. No better way to get some user feedback than put them in the hands of the end users right ?
A Soldier's life is not worth it to put something cool on your rifle.
Put the issued upper back on your rifle. The CO needs to police that crap up and get this situation fixed.
He needs some REAL gloves, too.. not those stupid 'mechanix' gloves that he saw on Act of Valor. Those stupid gloves will melt his frickin hands off.....
(this kind of crap gets me in a pretty bad mood)
No better way to get some user feedback than put them in the hands of the end users right ?
No better way to get an investigation going than have a Soldier get killed because he couldn't fire back due to his rifle jammed.
I believe that this unit is a guard unit from Texas. The same one I saw recently in Kabul. I also noticed in addition to their PMAG's some of the soldiers appeared to have a various mods to their weapons.
I wonder if this was an authorized change? I am all about doing T&E in a combat zone, but it needs to be controlled and have undergone extensive training in the U.S first.
Does anyone know if ADCOR had been tested here?
I do agree that if he simply bought his own upper and dropped it on there without authorization then he is a dipshit and someone needs to stomp his balls.
A Soldier's life is not worth it to put something cool on your rifle.
Put the issued upper back on your rifle. The CO needs to police that crap up and get this situation fixed.
He needs some REAL gloves, too.. not those stupid 'mechanix' gloves that he saw on Act of Valor. Those stupid gloves will melt his frickin hands off.....
(this kind of crap gets me in a pretty bad mood)
As for your answer. No you cannot simply drop an upper of your choice on a weapon and roll with it. This has been discussed before.
Says who? I have done it for the past 9 trips down range. Just got back in DEC and had my Upper the entire time.
Except I run a Noveske upper and not some want to be crap. :lol:
eternal24k
06-07-12, 06:37
Says who? I have done it for the past 9 trips down range. Just got back in DEC and had my Upper the entire time.
Except I run a Noveske upper and not some want to be crap. :lol:
how hard is it to take your upper back with you?
Quite simple. There is an Army regulation that prohibits it. I am not going to spend the time to look it up because it was posted before.
Says who? I have done it for the past 9 trips down range. Just got back in DEC and had my Upper the entire time.
Except I run a Noveske upper and not some want to be crap. :lol:
Thank God for the NG. They are great Americans serving their country.
I have never seen such crazy BS as I have from the Guard units in my AO. It's simply amazing:
We have a guard unit here on my FOB and they perform a certain task. It's not a difficult task, comparable to light office work. They work 1x 6 hour shift every day, and that's it. 6 hours on, 18 off. They could easily do with half of the Soldiers and work 12 hours at a stretch.
It is simply amazing to me, and not in a good way.
Quite simple. There is an Army regulation that prohibits it. I am not going to spend the time to look it up because it was posted before.
There is also an Army regulation about having a beard .....but I do that also. I also do not wear MultiCam or ACUs in Afghanistan.
There are no absolutes that cover all of us in the Army. Some of us do different things then the rest. So just because some can't do something does not mean that all can't. Be careful with blanket statements.
Ok, so let me expand on it. Aside from certain military units and personnel (which it should have been obvious I wasn't talking about) it is generally prohibited.
I don't think that the guys in the PRT's rate this, but I have been wrong in the past.
There is also an Army regulation about having a beard .....but I do that also. I also do not wear MultiCam or ACUs in Afghanistan.
There are no absolutes that cover all of us in the Army. Some of us do different things then the rest. So just because some can't do something does not mean that all can't. Be careful with blanket statements.
There is also an Army regulation about having a beard .....but I do that also. I also do not wear MultiCam or ACUs in Afghanistan.
There are no absolutes that cover all of us in the Army. Some of us do different things then the rest. So just because some can't do something does not mean that all can't. Be careful with blanket statements.
If you are part of the Title 10 Army, then you have to play by the rules. However, YOUR UNIT may have an exception to those rules. The Army post I'm from has an SF unit, so i understand a very small amount about this. I correct them when they are out of line, uniform, whatever. I do it politely and under the table. All I ask is that any leader set the proper example for any subordinate.
I'm fairly certain the guard unit in the picture is part of all us regular folks, and thus should probably play by the normal conduct pertaining to standards and discipline.
No better way to get an investigation going than have a Soldier get killed because he couldn't fire back due to his rifle jammed.
DOD is already in the midst of one big ass investigation of this.....thats one of the reasons why the IC competition is being driven along for better or for worse.
for example
Sgt. Charles Perales of Fort Bragg, NC had this to say in a letter reprinted by Defense News:
“My unit – B Company, 2nd Battalion, 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment – was deployed to Afghanistan from April 2005 to March 2006. While there, we were attached to Special Forces at Camp Tillman on the Afghan border…. I saw first-hand what happens when your weapon jams up because of the harsh environments we have to call home there. An 18B weapons sergeant was shot in the face due directly to his weapon jamming. I just can’t believe that after things like this happen, the Army is still buying more M4s."
I'm not in the place to call Sgt. Perales "full of shit".
I know many of you have been in theater multiple times, have had M4s save your ass, and work just fine putting those savages down right quick, so take it FWIW.
So that young man with the ADCO upper....who knows, perhaps he signed up to use it " dear brave soldier, you have the ability to test and evaluate a new weapons system on the "forefront" of technology blah blah blah" . Perhaps his CO signed him up?
Perhaps he deserves an Iraqgunz level ball smashing for taking that potential POS into harms way.
Its all conjecture until the facts come out.
how hard is it to take your upper back with you?
Not hard. I just pack it in my Tuff Boxes and Customs usualy just says, "Cool upper, What kind is it?".
scoutfsu99
06-07-12, 09:36
It's waiverable and not the first time it's happened. I don't know if I would take an ADCOR upper though.
Ok, so let me expand on it. Aside from certain military units and personnel (which it should have been obvious I wasn't talking about) it is generally prohibited.
I don't think that the guys in the PRT's rate this, but I have been wrong in the past.
True....but it is the NG so who knows what they are doing....:jester:
I believe that this unit is a guard unit from Texas. The same one I saw recently in Kabul.
The PRT is run by the Texas Army NG. All of the poeple attached there wear the patch. The soldier could be from anywhere.....just called a friend about it. ;)
The PRT is run by the Texas Army NG. All of the poeple attached there wear the patch. The soldier could be from anywhere.....just called a friend about it. ;)
The PRT in my AO is known for this. I see one particular Soldier with a different patch every week! Kinda frustrating to me, but mostly because I've been in 'divisional Army' for a long time.
I wear the patch that I had on my shoulder when I boarded the plane.
True....but it is the NG so who knows what they are doing....:jester:
O F O
sinlessorrow
06-07-12, 12:18
DOD is already in the midst of one big ass investigation of this.....thats one of the reasons why the IC competition is being driven along for better or for worse.
for example
Sgt. Charles Perales of Fort Bragg, NC had this to say in a letter reprinted by Defense News:
“My unit – B Company, 2nd Battalion, 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment – was deployed to Afghanistan from April 2005 to March 2006. While there, we were attached to Special Forces at Camp Tillman on the Afghan border…. I saw first-hand what happens when your weapon jams up because of the harsh environments we have to call home there. An 18B weapons sergeant was shot in the face due directly to his weapon jamming. I just can’t believe that after things like this happen, the Army is still buying more M4s."
I'm not in the place to call Sgt. Perales "full of shit".
I know many of you have been in theater multiple times, have had M4s save your ass, and work just fine putting those savages down right quick, so take it FWIW.
So that young man with the ADCO upper....who knows, perhaps he signed up to use it " dear brave soldier, you have the ability to test and evaluate a new weapons system on the "forefront" of technology blah blah blah" . Perhaps his CO signed him up?
Perhaps he deserves an Iraqgunz level ball smashing for taking that potential POS into harms way.
Its all conjecture until the facts come out.
The issue is that we have no idea why the rifle failed or how?
Was this guy under the impression that lube is bad for your rifle thus running it dry?
Was it a magazine related stoppage?
Was it worn parts needing to be replaced? Is so no rifle will fix this when it gets old.
Sadly old and busted magazines, and worn out rifles wont be fixed by the IC, once the new rifles get old they will be in just as bad of shape as our current ones.
Then there is the teaching of scraping your rifle parts ill they shine and that lube attracts sand and is bad for your rifle.
You are correct. There is alot of gray area to these ( in this case very tragic) cases as to what lead to the failure and said catastrophic results. The blanket result is to blame it on the weapon itself when it could have been a crappy magazine or any of the myriad of other points you brought up.
Again despite those points things like this are inevitably driving this "second coming" forward. The M4 is flawed in the higher ups eyes without denial. Perhaps when they field 50000 Adcor Bears and they have stoppages too because of bad mags, poor training, etc. etc. etc. along with a host of new problems they'll figure it out.....or push ahead for a "third coming".
Who knows...... whether its issuing new mags, rotating new M4s, providing state of the art training in malfunction drills and tactics etc or indeed a new weapons system.... we can only hope it works out and gives our forces an edge at effectively engaging the enemy and most importantly getting out alive and coming home. Because at the end of the day thats all that really matters.
CarlosDJackal
06-07-12, 14:07
It's waiverable and not the first time it's happened. I don't know if I would take an ADCOR upper though.
From what I understand all you need is to have the first 1-star in your CoC provide a memo authorizing this. You can do the same with your own personally-owned handgun.
The rub is finding that 1-star willing to do so and avoiding that Customs Agent who doesn't know the regulations enough to make it easy for you to bring back said handgun even with a memo.
CA Units have a lot of LEOs who would rather bring their Glocks or Sigs instead of lugging around that M-9. A lot of the CACOM Commanders (1-star billet) are themselves LEOs. FWIW.
sinlessorrow
06-07-12, 14:30
You are correct. There is alot of gray area to these ( in this case very tragic) cases as to what lead to the failure and said catastrophic results. The blanket result is to blame it on the weapon itself when it could have been a crappy magazine or any of the myriad of other points you brought up.
Again despite those points things like this are inevitably driving this "second coming" forward. The M4 is flawed in the higher ups eyes without denial. Perhaps when they field 50000 Adcor Bears and they have stoppages too because of bad mags, poor training, etc. etc. etc. along with a host of new problems they'll figure it out.....or push ahead for a "third coming".
Who knows...... whether its issuing new mags, rotating new M4s, providing state of the art training in malfunction drills and tactics etc or indeed a new weapons system.... we can only hope it works out and gives our forces an edge at effectively engaging the enemy and most importantly getting out alive and coming home. Because at the end of the day thats all that really matters.
I agree with everything you said.
No one wants to admit blame in life and its always easy to place the blame on something else, in this case the M4.
I also noticed the time stamp 2005-2006, more than likely the M4 was not new then so it did not have the improved extractor upgrade, also isnt that when they really pushed very light lu e to avoid attracting sand?
Things like this and Wanat are indeed what Push politicians to say its time for a new infantry rifle, and we all know every system has its flaw and once the IC(if it gets adopted) starts showing its wear from age and use we will see just how badly we really needed that new rifle, be it the ADCOR or the FN rifle.
The ADCOR is an intereting idea but I also know it has some issues, i would love to see how it holds up 5yrs from now after having 500,000 in soldiers hands and with constant scraping and removal of protective finishes, as well as not getting any spare replacement parts till they break, because sadly that seems to be how the army feels about maint. Run it till it breaks then fix it. The issue is that moment it breaks may just be when you need it most, but could have been avoided with preventative maint.
I agree with everything you said.
No one wants to admit blame in life and its always easy to place the blame on something else, in this case the M4.
I also noticed the time stamp 2005-2006, more than likely the M4 was not new then so it did not have the improved extractor upgrade, also isnt that when they really pushed very light lu e to avoid attracting sand?
Things like this and Wanat are indeed what Push politicians to say its time for a new infantry rifle, and we all know every system has its flaw and once the IC(if it gets adopted) starts showing its wear from age and use we will see just how badly we really needed that new rifle, be it the ADCOR or the FN rifle.
The ADCOR is an intereting idea but I also know it has some issues, i would love to see how it holds up 5yrs from now after having 500,000 in soldiers hands and with constant scraping and removal of protective finishes, as well as not getting any spare replacement parts till they break, because sadly that seems to be how the army feels about maint. Run it till it breaks then fix it. The issue is that moment it breaks may just be when you need it most, but could have been avoided with preventative maint.
You can't fix a software problem (training) with a hardware solution (new equipment).. Folks need to know how to use what they've got.
Soldiers should be able to shoot farther... so here's an ACOG. There are very few in my unit that know how to ACTUALLY use them, but we've all got them. It's really disappointing.
Apologies for zombie threading this one.
The jackass in the photo was my platoon sergeant on that deployment (and the jackass behind him was my PL) and those photos are pretty flattering because you can't see the clown shoes both of them were wearing.
The PSG had authorization from no one for carrying and using the ADCOR upper on his rifle. Our platoon was geographically several provinces away from the flagpole for the army side chain of command and our PRT was Navy and very hands off. Our PSG's mom apparently told him he was Tier 1 growing up, so he felt justified outfitting himself with all the cool guy kit he saw the SF and MARSOC guys on our FOB running around with (i.e. the photo's don't show the non-FR Crye Precision combat pants he lived in downrange, etc.).
I can't speak for ADCOR products in general, but that upper in particular was notably unreliable whenever we went to the range, and had trouble making it through a full magazine without a stoppage. (Also note that he had never test fired it before we got to our FOB in A'stan, which is something I might have done somewhere along the line before staking my life on a new piece of kit . . .)
Despite the mechanical issues, SFC Jackass carried it on every patrol he went on. The concept of someone taking a mechanically unreliable weapon outside the wire because it looked cool pretty much should tell you everything you need to know about the NCO in question, as well as the PL who didn't have enough spine to call him on his stupidity. As for what it says about ADCOR products -- I don't know, maybe it was a Monday-morning gun or a Friday-quitting time gun. Everybody has an occasional lemon (both in terms of manufactured products as well as chains of command . . .)
sinlessorrow
12-12-12, 23:18
Apologies for zombie threading this one.
The jackass in the photo was my platoon sergeant on that deployment (and the jackass behind him was my PL) and those photos are pretty flattering because you can't see the clown shoes both of them were wearing.
The PSG had authorization from no one for carrying and using the ADCOR upper on his rifle. Our platoon was geographically several provinces away from the flagpole for the army side chain of command and out PRT was Navy and very hands off. Our PSG's mom apparently told him he was Tier 1 growing up, so he felt justified outfitting himself with all the cool guy kit he saw the SF and MARSOC guys on our FOB running around with (i.e. the photo's don't show the non-FR Crye Precision combat pants he lived in downrange, etc.).
I can't speak for ADCOR products in general, but that upper in particular was notably unreliable whenever we went to the range, and had trouble making it through a full magazine without a stoppage. (Also note that he had never test fired it before we got to our FOB in A'stan, which is something I might have done somewhere along the line before staking my life on a new piece of kit . . .)
Despite the mechanical issues, SFC Jackass carried it on every patrol he went on. The concept of someone taking a mechanically unreliable weapon outside the wire because it looked cool pretty much should tell you everything you need to know about the NCO in question, as well as the PL who didn't have enough spine to call him on his stupidity. As for what it says about ADCOR products -- I don't know, maybe it was a Monday-morning gun or a Friday-quitting time gun. Everybody has an occasional lemon (both in terms of manufactured products as well as chains of command . . .)
:lol:
That's great, thanks so much for the information.
"Farah Hospital Ceremony"
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7180/6892909584_6a49bd7590_b.jpg
I wonder if this dude is a Nutnfancy fan. (The chest-mounted pistol, the Mechanix gloves)
sinlessorrow
12-12-12, 23:55
I wonder if this dude is a Nutnfancy fan. (The chest-mounted pistol, the Mechanix gloves)
Hey I'm a Mechanix fan!:nono:
scoutfsu99
12-13-12, 00:07
I wonder if this dude is a Nutnfancy fan. (The chest-mounted pistol, the Mechanix gloves)
You should go over to Afghanistan and ask him.
Hey I'm a Mechanix fan!:nono:
Me too. Just picked up some M-pact gloves in coyote
You should go over to Afghanistan and ask him.
Chill out
Besides that its been cleared up that he was a wannabe whats wrong with the mechanix gloves? :confused:
Besides that its been cleared up that he was a wannabe whats wrong with the mechanix gloves? :confused:
Nothing that I know of, except most at least buy the covert version without the loud logos.
scoutfsu99
12-13-12, 12:08
Besides that its been cleared up that he was a wannabe whats wrong with the mechanix gloves? :confused:
Wannabe? The guy over in Afghanistan serving his country or the never have, never will people sniping at him from behind a computer in America?:rolleyes:
He could be everything McLovin said and more......but he is (was) in a place most on this board will never go to. This place is becoming more like Arfcom every ****ing day.
Wannabe? The guy over in Afghanistan serving his country or the never have, never will people sniping at him from behind a computer in America?:rolleyes:
He could be everything McLovin said and more......but he is (was) in a place most on this board will never go to. This place is becoming more like Arfcom every ****ing day.
Sorry I mispoke there. By wannabe I wasn't referring to military. He has my highest regards for serving. As McLovin said though, trying to follow everything SF does kinda puts him in the "wannabe" category. Again, I'm sorry that came across the wrong way.
I wonder if this dude is a Nutnfancy fan. (The chest-mounted pistol, the Mechanix gloves)
I don't know your background, but chest mounted pistols are very common in Afghanistan.
sinlessorrow
12-13-12, 12:23
I don't know your background, but chest mounted pistols are very common in Afghanistan.
Well he is rockin a Serpa holster and chose to carry an unreliable gun.
Well he is rockin a Serpa holster and chose to carry an unreliable gun.
Serpa holsters are also extremely common in Afghanistan... I'm pretty sure everyone I saw there had one if they were issued an M9. The reason for the chest mount is often vehicle ops. That's why I saw it a lot... I didn't dismount very often, but rode in lots of vehicles outside the wire.
uncle money bags
12-13-12, 12:40
The upper issue aside, those guys look too damn clean to me. All that brand spankin new gear needs a good roll in the dirt.
Besides that its been cleared up that he was a wannabe whats wrong with the mechanix gloves? :confused:
Anything that will melt to your skin before you can egress a burning vehicle is frowned upon.:nono:
All the high speed moisture wicking undergarments that we wear stateside are a one way ticket to severe and highly septic burns if you get hit with an IED and set on fire. It takes a lot less time than you think for the over flash to melt your undies.
Anything that will melt to your skin before you can egress a burning vehicle is frowned upon.:nono:
All the high speed moisture wicking undergarments that we wear stateside are a one way ticket to severe and highly septic burns if you get hit with an IED and set on fire. It takes a lot less time than you think for the over flash to melt your undies.
I had heard about the moisture wicking stuff such as Under Armour being a problem before but never thought about the Mechanix Gloves in the same sense.
Anything that will melt to your skin before you can egress a burning vehicle is frowned upon.:nono:
All the high speed moisture wicking undergarments that we wear stateside are a one way ticket to severe and highly septic burns if you get hit with an IED and set on fire. It takes a lot less time than you think for the over flash to melt your undies.
Yeah, I got issued Drifire undershirts and briefs. Moisture wicking AND fire resistant, only $40 a t shirt.
As an helo gunner all of our clothing is nomex that is made by Massif or Drifire. Our gloves are Massif or Oakley which is nomex as well. I had to pick up more than a few people from convoys that struck IED's. A few poor souls did wear gear that burned to their skin because they chose not to wear approved nomex based gear. I know of 3 that died due to this.
My entire unit wears the BH Serpa holster for our M9's on our chest. This allows easier access to the weapon in time of need like using the helo hoist with one hand and then drawing out the M9 to protect yourself with your free hand hand for example.
Anyone that serves takes a risk but a even bigger unnecessary risk for wearing gear that isn't approved.
Anyone that serves takes a risk but a even bigger unnecessary risk for wearing gear that isn't approved.
I've got a couple scars on my hands from gloves that melted to them (non combat related). Stupid move to wear non-FR gear.
This pile of feces is made a few miles down the road from me. I wouldn't take one if it were free.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.