View Full Version : New 6.5mm Patriot Combat Cartridge, .223 Based, AR-15 Specific
Hello Fellas,
I believe that the forum members here would be Interested in a new AR-15 wildcat and the forum guys here seem to be quite sharp
and are not condescending types like on some other forums.
I would like to Introduce a new .223 based, AR-15 specific, 6.5mm round called the 6.5mm Patriot Combat Cartridge (6.5 PCC).
I have worked on this cartridge for the better part of two years, and
have been lucky
to see it succeed as far as AR-15 .223 based wildcats are concerned.
I had been frustrated after I had purchased a SSK Industries complete
upper in 6.5mm called the SSK 6.5 MPC . I was very happy once I had
finally received the upper from SSK to only become
extremely disappionted in the actual field results
when compared to the SSK website listings for
the MPC cartridge loads in terms of velocity/power
levels (they were not even close).
So a few months pass and I wind up talking to a friend in Alabama and he convinces me to develope my own design based on the
.223 Rem. case. I agreed to do so (I have a Mechanical Enigineering background) and told him he would need to do the
initial field testing since he had his own private 100 yard range and plenty of wild game
around like wild hogs and deer.
Fast forward several months later, sent in all the design blueprints, reamer prints to the reamer manufacturer for the reamer and gages
another set to the die manufacturer and the last set to the barrel manufacturer.
Again, fast forward several more month's our two test barrels come
in, one in 18" length (my fiends Paul's) and mine in 22" length. I sent Paul all the equiptment he needed, projectiles, powders, dies, ballistic
programs, chronograph etc. The barrels were designed on a stainless steel 416R barrel blank with a three grove stress relieved
Polygonal bore with a 1:8 twist to handle the long VLD pills.
Initial testing was better that expected, I had designed the cartridge
to meet or exceed the power level of the 7.62mm Russian
round with better accuracy and range than the X39mm.
Thankfully the 6.5mm PCC surpassed the design objectives
originally developed for it. Accuracy has been very good to excellent
with nearly all loads tried so far.
Here is a quick summary of the various real world field results in both
testing phase and 6.5mm PCC end user results (velocity, energy)...
120 grain Speer HotCor Spitzer Softpoint:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
18" bbl. velocity: 2,441 fps., energy: 1,589 ft/lbs, H335 powder
22" bbl. velocity: 2,520 fps., energy: 1,693 ft/lbs, H335 powder
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
100 grain Hornady Spitzer Softpoint:
----------------------------------------
18" bbl. velocity: 2,708 fps., energy: 1,629 ft/lbs, H335 powder
22" bbl. velocity: 2,807 fps., energy: 1,750 ft/lbs, H335 powder
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
85 grain Sierra Varminter Hollowpoint
-----------------------------------------
18" bbl. velocity: 3,054 fps., energy: 1,762 ft/lbs, H335 powder
22" bbl. velocity: 3,138 fps., energy: 1,860 ft/lbs, H335 powder
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
144 grain Lapua Scenar FMJBT (.636 BC/G1 !)
---------------------------------------------------
18" bbl. velocity: 2,102 fps., energy: 1,414 ft/lbs, H335 powder
22" bbl. velocity: 2,240 fps., energy: 1,605 ft/lbs, H335 powder
The 18" and longer barrels perform quite well in both velocity and
accuracy w/ H335 powder, the 16" to 18" barrels perform very
well with the faster powders like AA1680 etc.
Below are some pics of Deer (both Bucks & Does) taken with the 6.5mm PCC round.
The Buck was taken at 217 yards & the Doe at 242 yards. Thanks Paul. Paul used a
100 grain Pro Hunter, complete pass through in both animals.
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/65PCC2.jpg
Below is a young Buck taken at 110 yards with a 120 grain Speer HC,complete pass through
massive exit wound with much blood loss...
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/65mmDeerKill1.jpg
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/65mmDeerKill2.jpg
Hope it wasn't to boring for everyone here...
I think it's awesome seeing guys develop new wildcat cartridges. Looks like you've got a good one.
Ned Christiansen
05-22-12, 07:44
Those numbers are impressive, about on par with 6X45 but with bigger, and some heavier, bullets. Good work.
From .224 to .264, exactly one full mm. It'd be nice if you could get .223 brass that had not yet been necked, eh?
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-22-12, 09:20
Sound like you put in a lot of work looks like you have a winner.
ffhounddog
05-22-12, 10:14
Very nice. It did not bore me thank you for posting.
I like the testing and people trying new things.
Thanks guys for all your support.
I have always loved the AR platform both the AR-15 and AR-10 and I
have always loved the 1911 platform on the pistol end...so It was
a natural progress getting to the wildcatting of the .223 Rem. etc.
I have always been a fan of the 6mm & 6.5mm rifle calibers, so I
always wanted a low cost reloadable 223 based round that would
work well in a AR-15 platform...
I was also working on a 1911 barrel design in 7.62mm x 25mm
Tokarev caliber, but, someone beat me to it. I'm glad they did,
cause this wildcatting stuff is getting really expensive...
I am also working on a 6.8mm version of the PCC round for
all of the fans of the 6.8mm caliber...according to my ballistic
computer programs in should be in the ballpark ballistic wise
of a 16" barreled 6.8mm SPC round.
I have a lot of stuff on plate with family, work and everything so, it
slows me down when I want to do some work with the wildcats...
I will post all the latest developements with the 6.5 PCC round as
they happen.
Again, thanks to all of you here for your support.
Below is a pic. of the 6.5 PCC rounds in a H&K (Germany)
416 AR-15 Maritime Steel Magazine, they are the best made
longest COL mags. I have seen yet.
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/P1010048.jpg
Below is a pic. of a 6.8mm PCC w/ a 110 gr. Pro Hunter
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/IMGA0015.jpg
Here is some more 6.5mm PCC End User field testing results:
Update 6/8/2012 : 6.5mm PCC End User Field Results with 18" AR-15 Bbl.,Than You Nick !
85 gr. Sierra TNT HP--------H335 Powder-------Velocity: 3,054 fps.----Energy: 1,761 ft/lbs.
95 gr. Hornady V-Max.------H322 Powder------Velocity: 2,687 fps.----Energy: 1,524 ft/lbs.
100 gr. Hornady SSP--------H335 Powder-------Velocity: 2,708 fps.----Energy: 1,629 ft/lbs.
100 gr. Hornady A-Max.----H322 Powder-------Velocity: 2,617 fps.----Energy: 1,522 ft/lbs.
100 gr. Nosler Partition----H322 Powder-------Velocity: 2,607 fps.----Energy: 1,510 ft/lbs.
100 gr. Nosler B/T-----------H322 Powder-------Velocity: 2,623 fps.----Energy: 1,529 ft/lbs.
100 gr. Berger HPBT--------H322 Powder-------Velocity: 2,608 fps----Energy: 1,511 ft/lbs.
120 gr. Speer HotCor SP---H335 Powder------Velocity: 2,441/2,386--Energy: 1,589 ft/lbs
120 gr. Prvi Partizan--------H322 Powder-------Velocity: 2,385 fps-----Energy: 1,517 ft/lbs.
*******FMJBT***This is the same load used in the Wolff Gold 6.5 Grendel(R) Match Ammo.
120 gr. Hornady A-Max----H322 Powder--------Velocity: 2,360 fps.---Energy: 1,485 ft/lbs.
144 gr. Lapua FMJBT-------H322 Powder--------Velocity: 2,131 fps.----Energy: 1,453 ft/lbs.
Nick used the following specs: COL @ 2.285", Case Trim Length: 1.645", Case H20 Capacity: 32 grs.
PRI .223/5.56 Magazines, Winchester/IMI 223 brass & LC-10 223 Brass, SR Magnum Primers.
Man that's awesome! Do you plan to do any testing with shorter barrel lengths? I'm not knocking it one bit, as a fellow ME I'm thoroughly impressed with the work. But it seems in the naming of Patriot Combat Cartridge it musters up images of SBR's with high performance, high BC etc...for the modern battlefield it seams the trending is toward shorter rifles for urban combat..
Simply outstanding results though! I'm really impressed! Seems like you have thought this round out very well..I look forward to more updates
Man that's awesome! Do you plan to do any testing with shorter barrel lengths? I'm not knocking it one bit, as a fellow ME I'm thoroughly impressed with the work. But it seems in the naming of Patriot Combat Cartridge it musters up images of SBR's with high performance, high BC etc...for the modern battlefield it seams the trending is toward shorter rifles for urban combat..
Simply outstanding results though! I'm really impressed! Seems like you have thought this round out very well..I look forward to more updates
We have done some limited testing w/ 16" barrel version, and we
have had similar numbers to the 18" barrel version using slightly
faster powders...
We will be getting more Independent 6.5 PCC end user on-line
very soon, one of which has a 16" barrel...
So far the the end user results has been very good in both accuracy
and velocity...
Thanks for your Interest in the 6.5mm PCC round...We will try to
keep everyone updated...
That's good to know! I'll keep checking in for updates
Nice but in my case your just a little late- already went with the 300 Blk. I wish you luck, looks to be a fine cartridge. :D
I would like to see a top down photo of a magazine loaded with a few cartridges. Magazines are the universal problem for .223 based wildcats.
kaiservontexas
06-12-12, 08:54
Nope, this is not boring at all. I will keep watching for updates.
Tagged for interest. Keep up the good work!
Thank you guys for your support, I will keep this board updated with
the lastest Info. possible...
The member that mentioned the magazine Issue with some .223
based wildcats...Yes, I can be a Issue, but in my case it has not
become an Issue with all the magazines that have been tried so
far.
Most quality made magazines from Mil-Spec to Pmags have worked
well w/ the 6.5mm PCC cartridge thus far. We like to use the HK-416
German made mags because of the excellent COL of 2.3XX" it has and
the excellent build quality...Likewise, the PRI .223/5.56mm magazines
that also offer 2.3XX" COL and are well made (USA).
ASC magazine also offer a very good COL in the vicinity of 2.28X"
and they seem to be well made...as do some Mil-Spec. mags. all
of which are cost effective....
The Pmags which are very well made, offer the least COL of around
2.27X", however they are very reliable and can easily be modified
(or de-ribbed) for some of the bigger diameter .223 based wildcats
like the 7.62x40mm WT.
Thanks Guys.
AR15barrels
06-12-12, 10:08
It would be nice if you could get .223 brass that had not yet been necked, eh?
I have 500 pieces around here somewhere that was pulled off a blank production run.
It's a straight cylinder 223 brass at about 2.1" length.
Neat stuff...
Another boring wildcat?....:confused:
Not if it runs through PMAG's it ain't! :D
I will say the 6.5 interests me more than the 7.62 (Blackout) for my intended uses.
Good work so far, keep us up to date.
Another boring wildcat?....:confused:
Not if it runs through PMAG's it ain't! :D
I will say the 6.5 interests me more than the 7.62 (Blackout) for my intended uses.
Good work so far, keep us up to date.
The .300 Blackout is a good round esspecially for tactical uses...
It can also be effective on wild game like Deer and Hogs out to
say 100 yards or so, It is geared more for close range situations.
The 6.5mm PCC round is more of a true Intermediate/Longer Range
cartridge with great accuracy and excellent selection of high BC pro-
jectiles with energy levels of 1,000 ft/lbs out to 300 meters and
beyond especially from mid-length and longer barrels...
So It's really dependant on how/what you Intend to do with the
round etc...
AR15barrels
06-12-12, 12:58
How about posting a cartridge drawing with dimensions or at least a loaded round standing next to a 223 for comparison?
kaiservontexas
06-12-12, 15:53
That's a good idea. I would like to see comparison pictures.
OK guys here is a pic. of the various popular AR-15/AR-10/LR-308
cartridges in comparison to the 6.5mm PCC round...
From left to right:
.223 Rem./5.56mm NATO, 6.5mm PCC, 7.62x39mm, .308 Win./7.62x51mm NATO.
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/P1010341.jpg
Thanks.
prestonoconnor
06-12-12, 18:18
Didn't Chuck Taylor play with with 6.5/.223 wildcat in an ar back in the 80's? 6.5 TCU? I always liked the 6.5's. right in the middle of 30 cal and .223. When the 6.8 came out I wondered why they didn't go with a 6.5/223 just to avoid mag issues.
Didn't Chuck Taylor play with with 6.5/.223 wildcat in an ar back in the 80's? 6.5 TCU? I always liked the 6.5's. right in the middle of 30 cal and .223. When the 6.8 came out I wondered why they didn't go with a 6.5/223 just to avoid mag issues.
The 6.5mm PCC is a modified 6.5 TCU for the AR Rifle platform.
Tag for interest. Nice work.
When the 6.8 came out I wondered why they didn't go with a 6.5/223 just to avoid mag issues.
Wikpedia has that explained. They went with the 30 remington case for more powder for terminal perfomance, not target performance. The 6.8 has 80% of the power of the 308 in a lighter platform than the 308. Extremely popular gun in the pig infested states.
kaiservontexas
06-13-12, 13:03
Thank you for posting comparison pictures.
Thank you for posting comparison pictures.
Your welcome, I love that "Republic of Texas" theme...
More Info. can be had here:
http://illirianengineeringc.ipage.com/
This would be interesting in a CZ 527, and very easy to do since its a .223 based action. Of course so would a grendel with the 7.62x39 version.
This would be interesting in a CZ 527, and very easy to do since its a .223 based action. Of course so would a grendel with the 7.62x39 version.
This round would do even better in a CZ-527 action, as there would
not be such a restrictive magazine length Issue as In the AR-15 platform...
I would predict it would match or even exceed Grendelballistics. It would also
have the ability to safely run at higher pressures...
Well you would be restricted by the magazine on the CZ.
Well you would be restricted by the magazine on the CZ.
True, but it is considerbly longer (2.4XX") than the AR magazine (2.3XX").
I believe the early versions of the Mini Mauser actions
had the Internal magazines w/ no detachable option...
I'm not sure if the CZ-527 versions had this as well, but
I do know that the Yugoslav/Serbian versions did have this
form of Internal magazine (I think they had 5 round capacities).
Here is another 6.5mm PCC end user (BIGGDAWG) comming on-line
with his 6.5 PCC Long Range Tactical AR rig...He was able to get his
Rifle sighted in six shots with the resulting group below at 100 yards
with his first loads using the Speer 85 gr. TNT HP round. Again, it has
just been released by the end user about 24 hrs. ago...
It is a 22" SS P3, Rifle Gas, Std. Contour Bbl.
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/IMG_4816.jpg
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/2012-07-12183324.jpg
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/2012-07-12183333.jpg
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/2012-07-12183225.jpg
Once a more detailed range/field report is relased by the end user It
will be updated here with velocity numbers etc.
Update 7/16/2012: Initial velocity and accuracy have been very consistant and Impressive...
Sierra 85gr. HP @ 2,996 fps. with about 3/4 of a grain left till full case capacity...Targeted velocity: 3,100 fps.
Hornady 95gr. V-Max @ 2,781 fps. with about 3/4 of a grain left till full case capacity...Targeted velocity: 2,828 fps.
Sierra 100gr HP @ 2,775 fps. with over One full grain still left till full case capacity...Targeted velocity: 2,862 fps.
ICANHITHIMMAN
07-15-12, 17:05
Where do I get a barrel? I have been lookingfor a 6.5 AR barrel for a long time. Ar 15 barrels have the profile I want but I dont think he makes a 6.5.
Where do I get a barrel? I have been lookingfor a 6.5 AR barrel for a long time. Ar 15 barrels have the profile I want but I dont think he makes a 6.5.
More Info. can be had here:
http://illirianengineeringc.ipage.com/products-and-services.html
Just send an email with your desired barrels specs...
Is any brass prep work required other than resizing with the PCC die and trim to length? This cartridge is weighing heavily on my mind.
I'm thinking that a 18" medium contour barrel would be just what I need.
Is any brass prep work required other than resizing with the PCC die and trim to length? This cartridge is weighing heavily on my mind.
I'm thinking that a 18" medium contour barrel would be just what I need.
Hello JB326,
The case prep Involves trimming the virgin case to length
(1.645") and then sizing the neck/case up to 6.5mm/.264
diameter from the parent .223 Remington case, that's it.
Then it's just a matter of priming the case, filling it
with your selected powder and then adding your
selected projectile. H335 powder has been the
powder of choice for this round. While H322, RE-7,
AA2200, X-Term, AA1680, AA2230 have also been
very good performers.
I would consider the 18" barrel length to be a good well
balanced rifle length and is the shortest length I would go
for good overall performance.
We have been using virgin Lake City .223 brass for most of our
developement work with the 6.5mm PCC round for a couple of
reasons:
A) It is the least expensive quality .223 brass that can be had in bulk.
B) The LC .223 brass comes annealed from the factory.
C) The flash holes come deburred from the LC factory.
A box of 500 count LC .223 brass can be had (on sale) for as little
as $75.00 . Making it pretty cheap to reload vs. say the "G"...
Many new end 6.5mm PCC end users are comming online with
their new rifles/barrels, nearly all are reporting excellent results
in both accuracy and velocity with up to 129gr. pills...
Below are some velocity & energy numbers from actual
6.5mm PCC end users out in the field, some of these
numbers have beat published "G" velocites
(moslty do to the type of bore we use, as
well as the fact that "G" runs at lower
maximum chamber pressures (50K to 52K PSI)
vs. 55,114 PSI for the 6.5mm PCC, when properly
throated the 6.5mm PCC can do even better...
85gr. Sierra HP's: 3,000 fps. + from 18" bbls. and longer.
95gr. Hornady V-Max's: 2,687 fps. from a 18" bbl., &
2,866 fps. from a 22" bbl. (have not reached max. pressure
yet w/ the 22" [No signs of pressure at all]).
100 gr. Hornady Interlock SSP: 2,708 fps. (18") and 2,824 fps.
with a 22" bbl. (this loads has yet to reach maximum velocity w/
the 22" bbl. [No pressure signs at all]).
120gr. Sierra BTHP: 2,386/2,360 fps. (18" bbl.) & 2,400 fps. w/ a
22" bbl. (this load has not yet seen any pressure signs in the 22" bbl.)
125gr. Nosler Partition: 2,348 fps. with the 22" bbl., this load has
yet to see any signs of pressure...the 18" bbl. length has not been
tried with this particular load combo.
129gr. Hornady SSP: 2,330 fps. out of the 22" bbl., this load has yet
to see any pressure signs. This load has not seen any signs
of pressure at all. This load has not been tried in the 18" bbl. yet.
Energy levels (15-20 feet from the muzzle):
85gr. HP @ 3,054 fps. = 1,761 ft/lbs.
95gr. V-Max @ 2,866 fps. = 1,734 ft/lbs.
100gr. Hrn. SSP @ 2,824 fps. = 1,772 ft/lbs.
120gr. Sie. BTHP @ 2,400 fps. = 1,536 ft/lbs.
125gr. Nos. PT @ 2,348 fps. = 1,531 ft/lbs.
129gr. Hrn. SSP @ 2,330 fps. = 1,556 ft/lbs.
Accuracy has been 1" @ 100 yards or less with most loads tried.
Many of the loads above have yet to reach peak velocity or pressure
levels, the numbers listed above were from once fired (fire-formed)
6.5mm PCC Lake City and Winchester/IMI brass and Small Magnum
Rifle Primers.
Hello JB326,
The case prep Involves trimming the virgin case to length
(1.645") and then sizing the neck/case up to 6.5mm/.264
diameter from the parent .223 Remington case, that's it.
Then it's just a matter of priming the case, filling it
with your selected powder and then adding your
selected projectile. H335 powder has been the
powder of choice for this round. While H322, RE-7,
AA2200, X-Term, AA1680, AA2230 have also been
very good performers.
I would consider the 18" barrel length to be a good well
balanced rifle length and is the shortest length I would go
for good overall performance.
We have been using virgin Lake City .223 brass for most of our
developement work with the 6.5mm PCC round for a couple of
reasons:
A) It is the least expensive quality .223 brass that can be had in bulk.
B) The LC .223 brass comes annealed from the factory.
C) The flash holes come deburred from the LC factory.
A box of 500 count LC .223 brass can be had (on sale) for as little
as $75.00 . Making it pretty cheap to reload vs. say the "G"...
Many new end 6.5mm PCC end users are comming online with
their new rifles/barrels, nearly all are reporting excellent results
in both accuracy and velocity with up to 129gr. pills...
Below are some velocity & energy numbers from actual
6.5mm PCC end users out in the field, some of these
numbers have beat published "G" velocites
(moslty do to the type of bore we use, as
well as the fact that "G" runs at lower
maximum chamber pressures (50K to 52K PSI)
vs. 55,114 PSI for the 6.5mm PCC, when properly
throated the 6.5mm PCC can do even better...
85gr. Sierra HP's: 3,000 fps. + from 18" bbls. and longer.
95gr. Hornady V-Max's: 2,687 fps. from a 18" bbl., &
2,866 fps. from a 22" bbl. (have not reached max. pressure
yet w/ the 22" [No signs of pressure at all]).
100 gr. Hornady Interlock SSP: 2,708 fps. (18") and 2,824 fps.
with a 22" bbl. (this loads has yet to reach maximum velocity w/
the 22" bbl. [No pressure signs at all]).
120gr. Sierra BTHP: 2,386/2,360 fps. (18" bbl.) & 2,400 fps. w/ a
22" bbl. (this load has not yet seen any pressure signs in the 22" bbl.)
125gr. Nosler Partition: 2,348 fps. with the 22" bbl., this load has
yet to see any signs of pressure...the 18" bbl. length has not been
tried with this particular load combo.
129gr. Hornady SSP: 2,330 fps. out of the 22" bbl., this load has yet
to see any pressure signs. This load has not seen any signs
of pressure at all. This load has not been tried in the 18" bbl. yet.
Energy levels (15-20 feet from the muzzle):
85gr. HP @ 3,054 fps. = 1,761 ft/lbs.
95gr. V-Max @ 2,866 fps. = 1,734 ft/lbs.
100gr. Hrn. SSP @ 2,824 fps. = 1,772 ft/lbs.
120gr. Sie. BTHP @ 2,400 fps. = 1,536 ft/lbs.
125gr. Nos. PT @ 2,348 fps. = 1,531 ft/lbs.
129gr. Hrn. SSP @ 2,330 fps. = 1,556 ft/lbs.
Accuracy has been 1" @ 100 yards or less with most loads tried.
Many of the loads above have yet to reach peak velocity or pressure
levels, the numbers listed above were from once fired (fire-formed)
6.5mm PCC Lake City and Winchester/IMI brass and Small Magnum
Rifle Primers.
Wow... You get an A+++ for response fullness and detail in answering.
Ive got to make some room in the safe, but I think you guys have sold me on what my next build will be.
Thanks again for the reply.
Wow... You get an A+++ for response fullness and detail in answering.
Ive got to make some room in the safe, but I think you guys have sold me on what my next build will be.
Thanks again for the reply.
Your welcome JB326,
Just as a side note, all of the 6.5mm PCC barrels ordered through us
gets a full service throating job, chamber polish, M4 feedramp light
grind and polish to the barrel extension, full go/no go headspace
function check and lifetime load data support...
Thanks,
Vic
Mike from Texas
08-07-12, 19:17
Being a 6.5mm junkie, this cartridge definitely piques my interest.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
18" 6.5 PCC w/ Noveske switch block in my LMT MRP. Had a rough cut chamber that BHW replaced. Only put a few of my reloads through the new barrel and had a cycling issue. Got sidetracked and have not gotten back to testing loads. Hope to make some time soon.
12" 6.8 SPC II / 18" 6.5 PCC barrels
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx166/jasonusvi/New6568.jpg
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx166/jasonusvi/pcc1.jpg
18" 6.5 PCC w/ Noveske switch block in my LMT MRP. Had a rough cut chamber that BHW replaced. Only put a few of my reloads through the new barrel and had a cycling issue. Got sidetracked and have not gotten back to testing loads. Hope to make some time soon.
12" 6.8 SPC II / 18" 6.5 PCC barrels
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx166/jasonusvi/New6568.jpg
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx166/jasonusvi/pcc1.jpg
Jason, if want to get the chamber throated, polished, feedramps polished and headspace checked let me know...
I will get that done for you gratis (for free).
AR15barrels
08-08-12, 17:04
Just as a side note, all of the 6.5mm PCC barrels ordered through us gets a full service throating job, chamber polish, M4 feedramp light grind and polish to the barrel extension, full go/no go headspace function check and lifetime load data support...
What was wrong with the original throating that the barrel needs to be re-throated?
If re-throating is necessary, it would seem that a reamer change is in order...
What was wrong with the original throating that the barrel needs to be re-throated?
If re-throating is necessary, it would seem that a reamer change is in order...
What originally happened was the reamer manufacturer cut
the reamer shorter than spec. on the throat/leade,
everything else was OK...
Since the reamer took much longer than planned by the
reamer manufacturer (three months +), we put a rush
on delivery to the barrel manufacturer...by the time the
mistake was caught, the barrels/chambers were already
being cut...At that point It would have of taken another
three months and $200 for a new carbide reamer.
That seemed very Impractical at that point...So the
decision was made to purchase a Pro. quality throating
reamer kit as to give the option to patrons to have the
throat custom cut to their COL/load combo.
So, fast forward a couple of months later...barrels were
being delivered to me, called the customers to let them
know that the chambers were cut slighly short and that
we will adjust the throats on the chambers, and we asked
them what COL they wanted...It turned out for the better
as many customers wanted to use specialty mags with
long COL's for use with VLD projectiles.
So here we are several months later Sept./October 2012
...the barrel manufacture will be getting a new DMR type
(ala Spec II) carbide reamer with the correct throat length
that was originally ordered/printed...
It just so happened that Jason had a defective chamber on
his particular barrel that was Immediately replaced by the
barrel manufacturer...So hence I/we offered to custom cut
the throat and all the other extras that come with ordering
a new 6.5mm PCC barrel through us...I met Jason personally
and was Impressed with him, he is a very nice guy BTW...
So far we are very happy with the overall performance of the
6.5mm PCC cartridge, both in terms of accuracy, velocity
(which of course Includes muzzle energy etc...). It's
simple to reload and cost effective vs. some other
popular AR-15 cartridges...
Thanks,
Vic
Here is another happy 6.5mm PCC end user, with his super sweet
AR-15 Rifle build. J.J. is reporting super accurate groups with his
beginning loads so far...Thank you J.J.
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/JJ65mmPCCbuild.jpg
I'm glad you're developing this round, and wish you luck with it. If I was more of a reloader, I would be all over this!
I'm glad you're developing this round, and wish you luck with it. If I was more of a reloader, I would be all over this!
Well there is some good news for you, we are working on getting a custom ammo manufacture(s) on board to get people who don't
reload with access 6.5mm PCC ammo...and you can order from a
wide selection of projectiles...
Tier One Arms
11-19-12, 15:30
What kind of pressure are you seeing with this load?
What kind of pressure are you seeing with this load?
We have had loads developed to stay within the SAAMI/ANSI maximum
of 55,114 P.S.I. off the parent case...We have used several Independent
and experienced competition shooters/reloaders in the field to evaluate
and confirm tested loads do not have/show any pressure signs...as well
as Three Independent ballistic computer modeling programs to
help develop specified loads.
We are also awaiting final (Independent) ballistic lab pressure testing results
by the end of the month ([hopefully] It's taking longer than expected) before
it all goes to the ammo manufacture(s)...
Tackleberry40sw
11-19-12, 18:31
Is this cartridge going to go before SAAMI for approval as well?
Is this cartridge going to go before SAAMI for approval as well?
Well, that would take several years and many tens of thousands of dollars...however,
it can be done if the round becomes a total success.
In reality it is not needed to have official SAAMI/ANSI unless, you are
producing very large quantities of barrels/ammo...however, It is a
virtual necessity to have loads pressure tested by a
professional ballistics lab though for peace of mind
and for a added safety.
Here is our newest member to the 6.5mm PCC fan club...so easy a 8 year can do it, a vey nice 4 point Buck BTW ! Congrats to Gus and his Daughter ! Those 100gr. Nosler Partitions in 6.5mm have proven to be excellent game stoppers, many stories of quick DRT's. Once again a excellent combination of excellent accuracy, low recoil/blast, and moderately high velocity (est. 2,600 fps to 2,700 fps.) getting the job done.
Pic below used by permission, thanks again Gus and continued success with the 6.5mm PCC round.
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/GusJ.jpg
Here are some really nice pics sent in by end user K.B., he will be
using this fine 6.5mm PCC rig mostly for competition and long
range work w/ it's 24" Bbl...It just looks plain SEXY and
hopefully will be just as accurate !
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/100_0096_zps3872b7c3.jpg
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx65/Doc69er/100_0094_zpsabb061fa.jpg
What I have learned about the 6.5 PCC has been a pretty fun project. It started when my shooting partner acquired one in a trade.
The first thing I can say is the 6.5 PCC is a nice and fun cartridge for what it is. I was on the fence as to go with it or the 6.5 grendel and almost went with the PCC DR69 does a very good job of talking it up and makes a great argument. Things that go in favor of the PCC are a lot of good points:
It can use standard 223 brass that is cheap (Dr likes to say it is cheaper than the “G” stuff), it is nice to be able to work spare 5.56 brass into PCC, it takes a little work but is very easy to do. My shooting partner and I made 200 rounds pretty easily. I am on the fence on this one, since I can buy loaded wolf ammo for as little as $15 a box here at the local gun store, and if you calculate what it takes to buy 223 (5.56) brass and make rounds for the PCC it actually costs more to make the PCC. So here it is a draw between the PCC and the G (as dr likes to call it)
The PCC can use standard AR pmags, yes it can and that is nice if you have a 5.65 around, if it is a straight built i.e you do not have a 5.56 the cost of the mags for a 5.56 and a g are pretty much the same. The PCC will load more into the same length mag but for what we do 20 rounds in a mag is more than enough. But yes the pmags are great and if you are not shooting the longer 6.5 bullets the pmag is a plus. So this one goes to the PCC.
The PCC is accurate, here I have to ask what you consider accurate, if .75 to 1 MOA is accurate for you then yes it can do this, but it does not match the G guns I have ran across, the G started off life as a long distance round and has the heritage of the 6 PPC in its linage, and makes full use of it. The long neck and sharp shoulder of the G helps a lot in its quest for accuracy, the fact that I can load 85 to 140 grain bullets the same .015 off the lands that the 6.5’s seem to love so much just is not there with the PCC. And no matter what we load we can just not seem to get past the .75 MOA thresh hold consistently with the PCC out to 1000 yards like we do with the G. if anyone has a load that stays under 5 inches at a 1000 yards here please let me know, a load that can match my G at a 1000 has almost become the holy grail for my shooting partner. My G will hit sub .375 MOA out to 1000 yards all day long with the 140 grain Match burners. Sorry but this one goes to the G
The PCC can out run the G in velocity, sorry but no it cannot. The numbers that Dr69 uses on his site for the G are outdated and are not with the best powder choices, I have a 6.5 black hole weaponry barrel on my AR in 22 inch, my shooting partner has a 22 inch black hole weaponry on his. I always out run him by 200 to 300 fps across the board using the same Pact crony set the same distance from the same bench. The G will really out run the PCC when it comes to 140 grain bullets the PCC just loses way to much case when loaded with the longer pills. The G wins here.
Now I know that I am going to get flax for that last statement but all my loads are under the SAMMI pressure limits, which the PCC does not have because it is not a SAMMI certified round. The claim that the PCC can go as high as the 5.56 case can take at 55,000 makes me nervous we do push the loads on the 6.5 PCC a lot with flattened primers being a norm trying to get it to catch my G it just does not get there. Without a SAMMI certificate I would be leery of saying it can reach 55,000 PSI levels.
The dies are also a pet peeve of mine, the G has standard dies you can buy from your local gun store, for the PCC you have to buy $89 dies from DR69 instead of a simple $35 set from hornaday.
So can the PCC be good for hunting… one word YES.. the 6.5 is a great bullet and with major companies making new bullets for the Gs lower velocity the PCC comes into light as a great hunting round. I have killed a lot of animals with my 6.5 TCU handgun. As long as I kept it to handgun distances, and if it can kill well then the PCC (6.5 TCU wildcat) can do it just as well.
The thing I liked the most when I shot the 6.5 TCU was the use of the 140 grain bullets they just got the job done and done fast. a good example of this with the G is the last elk I shot at 500 yards, the shot hit home dead on the heart went clean through the shoulder bone on the other side after cutting the heart in half coming to a stop just under the skin on the other side. The animal walked for about 10 feet and dropped dead within seconds. the only reason I took this shot was I knew the 6.5 can make the kill I hunt a lot with my 6.5 creedmoor out to 600, and the fact the round is so accurate).
The problem is the PCC cannot be loaded with 140 at the same velocities I can load the G to make it fit in the magazine especially a PMag, it just loses to much case space. So much like my TCU (shorter barrel not case length was the problem there) you will have to limit your shooting to larger deer (New Mexico mulies) to fewer than 300 yards.
Now with all that stated I am looking at buying a 6.5 PCC and building up an upper for my AR. Why? Simple it would be nice to be able to load up my daughters 5.56 loads and then run the 6.5 PCC through it without needing to change more than the dies and powder charge. And I do not need the extra power or accuracy of the G for shooting pigs and small deer at less than 300 yards. So as it stands right now after shooting a PCC for around 1000 rounds or so it looks like I may just take apart my 300 blk out and change the barrel to a 16 inch 6.5 PCC for short range pig, antelope and deer work using the 123 grain AMAX. This lets me use my 6.5 Creedmoor for long shots on large game, the 6.5 grendel for intermediate hunting, and the 6.5 PCC for close range bush work. two bullets (140 and 123), one powder, one primer, three different rounds for three different uses.
I will let you know how it goes.
Dr69 you have a great little round there, and you have done what other wildcats have not pulled off as well, the reason you get hammered so much in the other forums is you tend to try and sell your round by putting down the G and other rounds. you have done a great job in this forum of not doing that (you started to mention the G then stopped) and people have stayed nice here. But the truth be told you do not have to do that kind of salesmanship, the 6.5 PCC can stand on its own merits, without bashing other cartridges. Post your velocities your loads and the bullets that you use, the PCC will sell itself.
What I have learned about the 6.5 PCC has been a pretty fun project. It started when my shooting partner acquired one in a trade.
The first thing I can say is the 6.5 PCC is a nice and fun cartridge for what it is. I was on the fence as to go with it or the 6.5 grendel and almost went with the PCC DR69 does a very good job of talking it up and makes a great argument. Things that go in favor of the PCC are a lot of good points:
It can use standard 223 brass that is cheap (Dr likes to say it is cheaper than the “G” stuff), it is nice to be able to work spare 5.56 brass into PCC, it takes a little work but is very easy to do. My shooting partner and I made 200 rounds pretty easily. I am on the fence on this one, since I can buy loaded wolf ammo for as little as $15 a box here at the local gun store, and if you calculate what it takes to buy 223 (5.56) brass and make rounds for the PCC it actually costs more to make the PCC. So here it is a draw between the PCC and the G (as dr likes to call it)
The PCC can use standard AR pmags, yes it can and that is nice if you have a 5.65 around, if it is a straight built i.e you do not have a 5.56 the cost of the mags for a 5.56 and a g are pretty much the same. The PCC will load more into the same length mag but for what we do 20 rounds in a mag is more than enough. But yes the pmags are great and if you are not shooting the longer 6.5 bullets the pmag is a plus. So this one goes to the PCC.
The PCC is accurate, here I have to ask what you consider accurate, if .75 to 1 MOA is accurate for you then yes it can do this, but it does not match the G guns I have ran across, the G started off life as a long distance round and has the heritage of the 6 PPC in its linage, and makes full use of it. The long neck and sharp shoulder of the G helps a lot in its quest for accuracy, the fact that I can load 85 to 140 grain bullets the same .015 off the lands that the 6.5’s seem to love so much just is not there with the PCC. And no matter what we load we can just not seem to get past the .75 MOA thresh hold consistently with the PCC out to 1000 yards like we do with the G. if anyone has a load that stays under 5 inches at a 1000 yards here please let me know, a load that can match my G at a 1000 has almost become the holy grail for my shooting partner. My G will hit sub .375 MOA out to 1000 yards all day long with the 140 grain Match burners. Sorry but this one goes to the G
The PCC can out run the G in velocity, sorry but no it cannot. The numbers that Dr69 uses on his site for the G are outdated and are not with the best powder choices, I have a 6.5 black hole weaponry barrel on my AR in 22 inch, my shooting partner has a 22 inch black hole weaponry on his. I always out run him by 200 to 300 fps across the board using the same Pact crony set the same distance from the same bench. The G will really out run the PCC when it comes to 140 grain bullets the PCC just loses way to much case when loaded with the longer pills. The G wins here.
Now I know that I am going to get flax for that last statement but all my loads are under the SAMMI pressure limits, which the PCC does not have because it is not a SAMMI certified round. The claim that the PCC can go as high as the 5.56 case can take at 55,000 makes me nervous we do push the loads on the 6.5 PCC a lot with flattened primers being a norm trying to get it to catch my G it just does not get there. Without a SAMMI certificate I would be leery of saying it can reach 55,000 PSI levels.
The dies are also a pet peeve of mine, the G has standard dies you can buy from your local gun store, for the PCC you have to buy $89 dies from DR69 instead of a simple $35 set from hornaday.
So can the PCC be good for hunting… one word YES.. the 6.5 is a great bullet and with major companies making new bullets for the Gs lower velocity the PCC comes into light as a great hunting round. I have killed a lot of animals with my 6.5 TCU handgun. As long as I kept it to handgun distances, and if it can kill well then the PCC (6.5 TCU wildcat) can do it just as well.
The thing I liked the most when I shot the 6.5 TCU was the use of the 140 grain bullets they just got the job done and done fast. a good example of this with the G is the last elk I shot at 500 yards, the shot hit home dead on the heart went clean through the shoulder bone on the other side after cutting the heart in half coming to a stop just under the skin on the other side. The animal walked for about 10 feet and dropped dead within seconds. the only reason I took this shot was I knew the 6.5 can make the kill I hunt a lot with my 6.5 creedmoor out to 600, and the fact the round is so accurate).
The problem is the PCC cannot be loaded with 140 at the same velocities I can load the G to make it fit in the magazine especially a PMag, it just loses to much case space. So much like my TCU (shorter barrel not case length was the problem there) you will have to limit your shooting to larger deer (New Mexico mulies) to fewer than 300 yards.
Now with all that stated I am looking at buying a 6.5 PCC and building up an upper for my AR. Why? Simple it would be nice to be able to load up my daughters 5.56 loads and then run the 6.5 PCC through it without needing to change more than the dies and powder charge. And I do not need the extra power or accuracy of the G for shooting pigs and small deer at less than 300 yards. So as it stands right now after shooting a PCC for around 1000 rounds or so it looks like I may just take apart my 300 blk out and change the barrel to a 16 inch 6.5 PCC for short range pig, antelope and deer work using the 123 grain AMAX. This lets me use my 6.5 Creedmoor for long shots on large game, the 6.5 grendel for intermediate hunting, and the 6.5 PCC for close range bush work. two bullets (140 and 123), one powder, one primer, three different rounds for three different uses.
I will let you know how it goes.
Dr69 you have a great little round there, and you have done what other wildcats have not pulled off as well, the reason you get hammered so much in the other forums is you tend to try and sell your round by putting down the G and other rounds. you have done a great job in this forum of not doing that (you started to mention the G then stopped) and people have stayed nice here. But the truth be told you do not have to do that kind of salesmanship, the 6.5 PCC can stand on its own merits, without bashing other cartridges. Post your velocities your loads and the bullets that you use, the PCC will sell itself.
Thanks Puravida for your write-up with your experiance with the
6.5mm PCC round.
There are a few points I would like to mention as it relates to the
6.5mm round:
I never stated anywhere that the 6.5mm PCC round is a direct com-
petitor to the "Grendel", others seem have thrown that out there...
The 6.5mm PCC round even with fireformed cases maxes out
to about 32 grains of water vs. the 35-36 grains of water for
the Grendel, so to compare them as equals is silly...Any
comparisons made between the two rounds are from
published data for the Grendel that many people
requested etc.
Now it would be true/fair to say that the 6.5mm PCC round can come
close with certain loads, say between 85 grs. to 120 grs. (or so)...to
the Grendel round etc.
Most of the velocity/accuracy results seen for the 6.5mm PCC
are from end users using their rifles and equiptment Including
load data that they have used etc...This Includes game animals
taken with the round.
You are correct that the Grendel will average around 150-200 fps.
faster with the exact same barrel/barrel type, after all the
Grendel does have a 4-5 grain atvantage over the PCC
round...which is why I have always said it is silly to
compare the two directly.
You are correct on the Pmags, they are great mags, but they do limit
you to ~2.270" max. COL. We have always reccomended
using mags. with the longest available COL. The HK-416
Marine mags have proven to be the best, with a COL of
just over 2.300" .
You are correct in that the .223/5.56 brass is cheaper and
more available than the Grendel brass (save for the Serbian
made Wolf Grendel brass cased ammo...).
The cost of dies will always be higher on average for the PCC round
as it is a wildcat round, but the $89 cost is not outragous by
any means, as it also Includes delivery and tracking. If you
got your PCC barrel from us, it is Inspected/throated/
tested/polished/functiontested and headspaced check
before it gets to the customer...and it comes with free
lifetime load data support.
Bottom line is this: you will get a well made and accurate
(1" or less @100 yards with most loads, with some getting
sub 1/2 " groups) barrel with free lifetime product support.
Also, every round has limits and the 6.5mm PCC is not
Immune to the laws of Physics, etc.
Pressure testing will hopefully be finished soon, we are expecting a
pressure range from a low of 50K PSI to a high of 62K PSI, within
the the normal operating pressures of the .223/5.56mm NATO
round.
Like you said before it is a great round for what it is, a fun, accurate,
low recoil, .223 based wildcat with Intermediate power levels.
Thanks again for that well written piece and enjoy your 6.5mm PCC.
Thanks for the reply.
Things like this are what I was talking about.
You said “I never stated anywhere that the 6.5mm PCC round is a direct competitor to the "Grendel", others seem have thrown that out there...”
But you are the one that set up that idea and push it as a competitor, your webpage states that it can match and in a lot of cases exceeds the “published” levels of a grendel. By putting that and the “published speeds” of the grendel on your webpage and then saying you exceed it you are putting yourself in direct competition with the grendel.
On this forum you have said “I would predict it would match or even exceed Grendelballistics. It would also have the ability to safely run at higher pressures...”
And:
“Below are some velocity & energy numbers from actual
6.5mm PCC end users out in the field, some of these
numbers have beat published "G" velocites
(moslty do to the type of bore we use, as
well as the fact that "G" runs at lower
maximum chamber pressures (50K to 52K PSI)
vs. 55,114 PSI for the 6.5mm PCC, when properly
throated the 6.5mm PCC can do even better...”
but then two pages latter on the same forum you state to me:
The 6.5mm PCC round even with fireformed cases maxes out
to about 32 grains of water vs. the 35-36 grains of water for
the Grendel, so to compare them as equals is silly...Any
comparisons made between the two rounds are from
published data for the Grendel that many people
requested etc.
And:
You are correct that the Grendel will average around 150-200 fps.
faster with the exact same barrel/barrel type, after all the
Grendel does have a 4-5 grain atvantage over the PCC
round...which is why I have always said it is silly to
compare the two directly.
Dr I do not think it is the 4-5 grain advantage the grendel has over the PCC as much as the fact that the PCC is handicapped to a 2.3 overall length.
The 6.5 TCU has a similar problem in a handgun, to use the full case capacity you have to load the bullet way out this means long chambering your barrel which means losing precious inches in a handgun 15 inch barrel was max. You loss an inch to the long chamber. So you have to chose between a smaller bullet (read that less kinetic energy) or a larger bullet at slower speeds (read the less kinetic energy).
In the case of the 6.5 PCC you have to seat your bullets in so far that you lose a lot of case therefore power potential. What good is that nice strong case if you cannot load it to full potential?
You said “Now it would be true/fair to say that the 6.5mm PCC round can come close with certain loads, say between 85 grs. to 120 grs. (or so)...to the Grendel round etc.”
Not really, the data you posted above in this forum would not support that:
85gr. HP @ 3,054 fps. = 1,761 ft/lbs.
95gr. V-Max @ 2,866 fps. = 1,734 ft/lbs.
100gr. Hrn. SSP @ 2,824 fps. = 1,772 ft/lbs.
120gr. Sie. BTHP @ 2,400 fps. = 1,536 ft/lbs.
125gr. Nos. PT @ 2,348 fps. = 1,531 ft/lbs.
129gr. Hrn. SSP @ 2,330 fps. = 1,556 ft/lbs.
From the load sheet attached (using end user data vs your end user data apples to apples)
100gr. AMAX @ 3016 fps
120gr SMK @ 2759 fps
123gr NCC @ 2724 fps
129gr SST @ 2662 fps
130gr GT @ 2678 fps
142gr SMK @ 2578 fps
And not on the load sheet but my go to load for prairie dogs and coyotes:
95gr AMAX @ 3205 fps with a standard deviation of 5 fps
The last load is hot, it will flatten the primers most of the time, but I have 23 reloads on the same Lapua brass without failures and the primers still seat extremely firm.
And my elk load:
140gr AMAX @ 2610 fps again this is hot and I only use it for hunting. For target shooting I back it down to 2550 fps
On that note:
You state “You are correct in that the .223/5.56 brass is cheaper and more available than the Grendel brass (save for the Serbian
made Wolf Grendel brass cased ammo...).”
This seems funny to me. (That is said in the kindest way not a criticism at all). Lake City brass is and will always be my go to brass in my 5.56 nato. It is great brass and is easy to get. It is good for 12 or so reloads before it has to be tossed, the 6.5 PCC is doing about the same at 10-14 before issues arise mainly loose primer pockets. The lapua brass that I have has made it to 23 reloads with neck annealing at every 10 reloads. So yes it cost me twice as much but it has lasted twice as long, and since there is not factory loaded 6.5 PCC ammo only reloaders/wildcatters will be using the PCC. This means that even if the lake city brass is cheaper to buy it does not last as long as the higher quality lapua brass does. And the cheaper wolf brass that will cost less than the lake city stuff and is lasting 11-14 reloads before splitting necks. So your comment “save for the Serbian made wolf grendel brass cased ammo” put a smile on my face. 11-14 reloads for wolf or 10-14 for the lake city brass worked to 6.5 PCC what is the real world difference?
But that is not what made me laugh. What was funny to me was this morning I went to the local gun store and the shelves were empty of 5.56 or 223 ammo, bullets and brass (as has been the case since the threat of a ban) but there was 10 boxes of loaded wolf ammo and a case of hornaday ammo for the grendel. Along with bullets in 6.5 (I was there to buy 200 rounds of match burners in 140gr). And I just ordered 200 rounds of brass from LBC for the grenel it is hard to impossible to do that for the 5.56 right now.
You say “Most of the velocity/accuracy results seen for the 6.5mm PCC are from end users using their rifles and equiptment Including
load data that they have used etc...This Includes game animals
taken with the round.”
The problem we are having with the round, and any help you can give here would be of great help, is the neck is so short it is hard to get a good concentric bullet loaded. Using the 6.5 TCU dies to align the bullet after loading has helped but the accuracy (sub .5 MOA, Josh’s new holy grail) is just not there. And if you have to go to a compressed load the result on misalignment is logarithmic in magnitude.
The longer neck of the G makes it very easy to get it dead on and hold the bullet in perfect alignment during loading and firing, in the PCC we are having a very hard time. And as you know this is everything when it comes to sub .5 MOA loads, consistent alignment, consistent neck tension, consistent release, and no crimp have always been the magic formula for accuracy in long distance shooting. How do you do that with the PCC? Please help here.
As for hunting using your numbers:
129gr. Hrn. SSP @ 2,330 fps. = 1,556 ft/lbs. when put in the H.I.T.S calculator puts you right in the middle of medium game at the barrel with 794 and the lower edge with 629 at 300 yards. Medium game is :
Medium Game 500-900 H.I.T.S.
A rating of 501 to 900 applies to bullet/cartridge combinations that are applicable for medium-sized game such as deer, antelope, black bear, and caribou, or game weighing 50 to 300 pounds.
The grendel is 140gr AMAX @ 2610 is 1049 or in the large game class at the muzzle.
Large Game 901-1,500 H.I.T.S.
A rating of 901 to 1,500 specifies cartridge/bullet combinations well-suited for large and heavy, but not generally considered dangerous game. This includes elk, moose, African plains game, red stag, American bison, and other animals weighing between 300 to 2,000 pounds.
The grendel drops to 643 at 800 yards and 602 at 900 yards, so what the PCC can kill at 300 yards the grendel will do at somewhere between 825 and 850.
Now the normal disclaimer comes in here, I do not advocate shooting game animals at long distances, I limit my shots to 500 yards on animals, since wind and other things can make the shot go wide. And I shoot a lot at 500 to 1000 yard distances (500 rounds a month) so I know my gun very well. So the numbers above are for comparison.This is true with the exception of prairie dogs any hit with the 95gr AMAX is a clean kill so we push the limit on them to 1000 yards.The humane kill zone on an elk is 10 inch in size a deer is 6 inches in size so if your gun and you cannot hit within that zone 100% of the time do not take the shot.
Dr please take the next statements as constructive criticism, I say it to help not hurt, you counter your own words and that makes it hard to believe the rest of what you say for people that are looking at dropping $1000 on an upper. They will go with someone that stays credible because that is insurance that they will get their money’s worth.
But again you have a great round and the PCC can stand on its own against other rounds in its class range. Just tell the world what it can do without the showmanship and you will have a winner.
For example I asked Alexander arms why they did not publish the numbers that grendel users were getting with hand loads? I liked his answer “because it would be wrong to do so, first legally then ethically. Each gun is different and I cannot control what another does. Industry standard is to find the maximum load that a round can reach then lower the load data by 10%-20% this means that if the person loads the bullet to hit the lands he will still be safe.”
And
“a good example of this is the 223 and 5.56 nato, you can shoot the 223 in the 5.56 all day just do not try to shoot a military 5.56 in the 223 chamber, it will touch the lands and the pressures will at the least damage your gun, at worst damage or kill you” the only difference in these rounds is the chamber of the 223 same brass, same bullet, same powder, just the length is different.
The data you are using to base your webpage on is end user data, so to be fair post end user data for the grendel on your page. I will attach a nice spread sheet that you can find on the gendel. I have tried all the load on there with no sighs of over pressure, and since I use a P3 barrel instead of a 5R like the one that the spreadsheet uses my 22 inch matches or surpasses his velocity numbers even though he is using a 24 inch barrel.
Again the standard disclaimer comes into play here for those of you with a grendel if you try these loads start at 15% under and work your way up what works in my gun may not be safe in yours. And please check your chamber dimensions before loading to any stated COL. I am not a gun company or have any affiliation with a gun company so therefor I attach the load data as a fellow hobbyist with no legal or ethical attachment to it. in other wards use it at your own risk and I leave it up to you to make sure you use it safely.
I came on this forum to see if I can find a way to get the PCC to match the accuracy of my G. my shooting partner is the calmest guy you will ever know but I think that me consistently getting the hit after he has missed is driving him over the edge (he is use to beating me at the shorter ranges with his 5.56 and heavy loads, and when we change guns he consistently beats me out to 1000 yards G against PCC), I know the incredible accuracy that the 6.5 TCU can reach so I know the PCC should be able to do as well if not better. So any help people can give me on this quest would be very welcome. Thanks ahead of time to anyone that can give me data on the right load/bullet/land distance to make this barrel shoot. If we pull it off there will be a nice 16 inch PCC barrel swap (changing out the 300 blk out) in my near future. At medium to short ranges I like the advantage the PCC will give me over the 300 blk out.
the PDF is to large to post so here is the link to download it
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/88798310/Grendel%20Loads%20from%20Bwild%2097%20Updated.pdf
and
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/88798310/Grendel%20Loads%20from%20Bwild%2097%20Updated.xlsx
Thanks for the reply.
Things like this are what I was talking about.
You said “I never stated anywhere that the 6.5mm PCC round is a direct competitor to the "Grendel", others seem have thrown that out there...”
But you are the one that set up that idea and push it as a competitor, your webpage states that it can match and in a lot of cases exceeds the “published” levels of a grendel. By putting that and the “published speeds” of the grendel on your webpage and then saying you exceed it you are putting yourself in direct competition with the grendel.
On this forum you have said “I would predict it would match or even exceed Grendelballistics. It would also have the ability to safely run at higher pressures...”
And:
“Below are some velocity & energy numbers from actual
6.5mm PCC end users out in the field, some of these
numbers have beat published "G" velocites
(moslty do to the type of bore we use, as
well as the fact that "G" runs at lower
maximum chamber pressures (50K to 52K PSI)
vs. 55,114 PSI for the 6.5mm PCC, when properly
throated the 6.5mm PCC can do even better...”
but then two pages latter on the same forum you state to me:
The 6.5mm PCC round even with fireformed cases maxes out
to about 32 grains of water vs. the 35-36 grains of water for
the Grendel, so to compare them as equals is silly...Any
comparisons made between the two rounds are from
published data for the Grendel that many people
requested etc.
And:
You are correct that the Grendel will average around 150-200 fps.
faster with the exact same barrel/barrel type, after all the
Grendel does have a 4-5 grain atvantage over the PCC
round...which is why I have always said it is silly to
compare the two directly.
Dr I do not think it is the 4-5 grain advantage the grendel has over the PCC as much as the fact that the PCC is handicapped to a 2.3 overall length.
The 6.5 TCU has a similar problem in a handgun, to use the full case capacity you have to load the bullet way out this means long chambering your barrel which means losing precious inches in a handgun 15 inch barrel was max. You loss an inch to the long chamber. So you have to chose between a smaller bullet (read that less kinetic energy) or a larger bullet at slower speeds (read the less kinetic energy).
In the case of the 6.5 PCC you have to seat your bullets in so far that you lose a lot of case therefore power potential. What good is that nice strong case if you cannot load it to full potential?
You said “Now it would be true/fair to say that the 6.5mm PCC round can come close with certain loads, say between 85 grs. to 120 grs. (or so)...to the Grendel round etc.”
Not really, the data you posted above in this forum would not support that:
85gr. HP @ 3,054 fps. = 1,761 ft/lbs.
95gr. V-Max @ 2,866 fps. = 1,734 ft/lbs.
100gr. Hrn. SSP @ 2,824 fps. = 1,772 ft/lbs.
120gr. Sie. BTHP @ 2,400 fps. = 1,536 ft/lbs.
125gr. Nos. PT @ 2,348 fps. = 1,531 ft/lbs.
129gr. Hrn. SSP @ 2,330 fps. = 1,556 ft/lbs.
From the load sheet attached (using end user data vs your end user data apples to apples)
100gr. AMAX @ 3016 fps
120gr SMK @ 2759 fps
123gr NCC @ 2724 fps
129gr SST @ 2662 fps
130gr GT @ 2678 fps
142gr SMK @ 2578 fps
And not on the load sheet but my go to load for prairie dogs and coyotes:
95gr AMAX @ 3205 fps with a standard deviation of 5 fps
The last load is hot, it will flatten the primers most of the time, but I have 23 reloads on the same Lapua brass without failures and the primers still seat extremely firm.
And my elk load:
140gr AMAX @ 2610 fps again this is hot and I only use it for hunting. For target shooting I back it down to 2550 fps
On that note:
You state “You are correct in that the .223/5.56 brass is cheaper and more available than the Grendel brass (save for the Serbian
made Wolf Grendel brass cased ammo...).”
This seems funny to me. (That is said in the kindest way not a criticism at all). Lake City brass is and will always be my go to brass in my 5.56 nato. It is great brass and is easy to get. It is good for 12 or so reloads before it has to be tossed, the 6.5 PCC is doing about the same at 10-14 before issues arise mainly loose primer pockets. The lapua brass that I have has made it to 23 reloads with neck annealing at every 10 reloads. So yes it cost me twice as much but it has lasted twice as long, and since there is not factory loaded 6.5 PCC ammo only reloaders/wildcatters will be using the PCC. This means that even if the lake city brass is cheaper to buy it does not last as long as the higher quality lapua brass does. And the cheaper wolf brass that will cost less than the lake city stuff and is lasting 11-14 reloads before splitting necks. So your comment “save for the Serbian made wolf grendel brass cased ammo” put a smile on my face. 11-14 reloads for wolf or 10-14 for the lake city brass worked to 6.5 PCC what is the real world difference?
But that is not what made me laugh. What was funny to me was this morning I went to the local gun store and the shelves were empty of 5.56 or 223 ammo, bullets and brass (as has been the case since the threat of a ban) but there was 10 boxes of loaded wolf ammo and a case of hornaday ammo for the grendel. Along with bullets in 6.5 (I was there to buy 200 rounds of match burners in 140gr). And I just ordered 200 rounds of brass from LBC for the grenel it is hard to impossible to do that for the 5.56 right now.
You say “Most of the velocity/accuracy results seen for the 6.5mm PCC are from end users using their rifles and equiptment Including
load data that they have used etc...This Includes game animals
taken with the round.”
The problem we are having with the round, and any help you can give here would be of great help, is the neck is so short it is hard to get a good concentric bullet loaded. Using the 6.5 TCU dies to align the bullet after loading has helped but the accuracy (sub .5 MOA, Josh’s new holy grail) is just not there. And if you have to go to a compressed load the result on misalignment is logarithmic in magnitude.
The longer neck of the G makes it very easy to get it dead on and hold the bullet in perfect alignment during loading and firing, in the PCC we are having a very hard time. And as you know this is everything when it comes to sub .5 MOA loads, consistent alignment, consistent neck tension, consistent release, and no crimp have always been the magic formula for accuracy in long distance shooting. How do you do that with the PCC? Please help here.
As for hunting using your numbers:
129gr. Hrn. SSP @ 2,330 fps. = 1,556 ft/lbs. when put in the H.I.T.S calculator puts you right in the middle of medium game at the barrel with 794 and the lower edge with 629 at 300 yards. Medium game is :
Medium Game 500-900 H.I.T.S.
A rating of 501 to 900 applies to bullet/cartridge combinations that are applicable for medium-sized game such as deer, antelope, black bear, and caribou, or game weighing 50 to 300 pounds.
The grendel is 140gr AMAX @ 2610 is 1049 or in the large game class at the muzzle.
Large Game 901-1,500 H.I.T.S.
A rating of 901 to 1,500 specifies cartridge/bullet combinations well-suited for large and heavy, but not generally considered dangerous game. This includes elk, moose, African plains game, red stag, American bison, and other animals weighing between 300 to 2,000 pounds.
The grendel drops to 643 at 800 yards and 602 at 900 yards, so what the PCC can kill at 300 yards the grendel will do at somewhere between 825 and 850.
Now the normal disclaimer comes in here, I do not advocate shooting game animals at long distances, I limit my shots to 500 yards on animals, since wind and other things can make the shot go wide. And I shoot a lot at 500 to 1000 yard distances (500 rounds a month) so I know my gun very well. So the numbers above are for comparison.This is true with the exception of prairie dogs any hit with the 95gr AMAX is a clean kill so we push the limit on them to 1000 yards.The humane kill zone on an elk is 10 inch in size a deer is 6 inches in size so if your gun and you cannot hit within that zone 100% of the time do not take the shot.
Dr please take the next statements as constructive criticism, I say it to help not hurt, you counter your own words and that makes it hard to believe the rest of what you say for people that are looking at dropping $1000 on an upper. They will go with someone that stays credible because that is insurance that they will get their money’s worth.
But again you have a great round and the PCC can stand on its own against other rounds in its class range. Just tell the world what it can do without the showmanship and you will have a winner.
For example I asked Alexander arms why they did not publish the numbers that grendel users were getting with hand loads? I liked his answer “because it would be wrong to do so, first legally then ethically. Each gun is different and I cannot control what another does. Industry standard is to find the maximum load that a round can reach then lower the load data by 10%-20% this means that if the person loads the bullet to hit the lands he will still be safe.”
And
“a good example of this is the 223 and 5.56 nato, you can shoot the 223 in the 5.56 all day just do not try to shoot a military 5.56 in the 223 chamber, it will touch the lands and the pressures will at the least damage your gun, at worst damage or kill you” the only difference in these rounds is the chamber of the 223 same brass, same bullet, same powder, just the length is different.
The data you are using to base your webpage on is end user data, so to be fair post end user data for the grendel on your page. I will attach a nice spread sheet that you can find on the gendel. I have tried all the load on there with no sighs of over pressure, and since I use a P3 barrel instead of a 5R like the one that the spreadsheet uses my 22 inch matches or surpasses his velocity numbers even though he is using a 24 inch barrel.
Again the standard disclaimer comes into play here for those of you with a grendel if you try these loads start at 15% under and work your way up what works in my gun may not be safe in yours. And please check your chamber dimensions before loading to any stated COL. I am not a gun company or have any affiliation with a gun company so therefor I attach the load data as a fellow hobbyist with no legal or ethical attachment to it. in other wards use it at your own risk and I leave it up to you to make sure you use it safely.
I came on this forum to see if I can find a way to get the PCC to match the accuracy of my G. my shooting partner is the calmest guy you will ever know but I think that me consistently getting the hit after he has missed is driving him over the edge (he is use to beating me at the shorter ranges with his 5.56 and heavy loads, and when we change guns he consistently beats me out to 1000 yards G against PCC), I know the incredible accuracy that the 6.5 TCU can reach so I know the PCC should be able to do as well if not better. So any help people can give me on this quest would be very welcome. Thanks ahead of time to anyone that can give me data on the right load/bullet/land distance to make this barrel shoot. If we pull it off there will be a nice 16 inch PCC barrel swap (changing out the 300 blk out) in my near future. At medium to short ranges I like the advantage the PCC will give me over the 300 blk out.
Hello again Puravida,
The way I see the the role of the 6.5mm PCC is this: It is a alternative
for the people who like the 6.5mm caliber and don't want the
6.5mm Grendel, (not having do to to buy new brass,bolt,mags etc.)
it is one of the primary reason(s) one would get the 6.5mm PCC
who reloads. A lot of people have a .223/5.56 already and
finds the transformation to the 6.5mm PCC easier.
Any round round, Including the Grendel is handicapped by
COL limitations of the AR-15 platform, so that pretty much
means ~ 2.300" max. COL. Unless you are using a modified
mag or are single loading Into the rifle (which some guys
are doing) that is pretty much It.
The long and heavy 140 gr. plus weight class of pills is a bit
too much for the .223 part case w/o using a longer than
2.300" COL. Although, the PCC does a fairly good job in
this respect with the 144 gr. Lapua and Hornady 140 gr.
SSP's, you can't expect miracles though.
Now since we have not gotten back the pressure testing
results for the PCC yet, we can only go by actual field
results by us and PCC end users.
The use of a shorter neck is out of necessity do to geometry
/ogive with many 6.5mm pills, so a crimp may be needed for
some loads...In the real world, compromises are always in
effect when you have mag limitations and such. I could have
shortened the case body in favor of the longer neck, but that
would have reduced case capacity and thus performance.
I don't think .5 MOA is to shabby when many factors are
considered, not the least of which is COL limitations of the
AR-15 platform...We do have guys getting slightly better
results than that with certain pet loads they have developed.
Unfortunately, I don't have anywhere near the budget of a
company like AA, so we have to go with what we can...
Anyway, thanks for your field report and I'm glad your/your
friends like the 6.5mm PCC round, especially considering the
limitations that the round has to deal with, etc.
In the end the love of the 6.5mm caliber, having options, and
being Americans is what counts. We can agree to disagree on
a few Issues and still be friends at the end of the day.
In the end the love of the 6.5mm caliber, having options, and
being Americans is what counts. We can agree to disagree on
a few Issues and still be friends at the end of the day.
well stated I would change Americans to wildcatters (josh is Canadian and I am half Costa Rican.. lol)
but I still believe the PCC should be able to do better, again based on 25 years of experience with the 6.5 TCU. and do not want to give up on that belief.
the 300 blk out is a great 200 yard gun, but I still want to change it out for the 6.5 PCC. for deer, pigs and such at shorter ranges.
but what I am really looking for is how to get the barrel to shoot sub .75 MOA out of the PCC. with consistent five shot groups going under .5 MOA binging the holy grail for us, do you or any of your fans have anything they can suggest to do this? my G is getting close to that magical 5000 round mark where it will start to open up, so I will be going for a new barrel soon, it maybe fun to play with the PCC as my next barrel if we can make josh's shoot close to what my last four G barrels have shot. what can I say I am a wildcatter at heart.
again any help you can give or anyone can give for that matter would be great. can you ask people that have your barrel and can consistently hit the five shot sub .5 MOA mark to let you know what load and how far off the lands they are using? this would help a lot.
thank you in advance...
keep up the good work, I would love to see this round truly come of age, it would be nice to see it on the shelf of my local gun store someday....
hockeynick39
02-03-13, 06:07
Don't understand why you and your friend are not able to get sub MOA out of your barrel or even complaining about 3/4"groups (most people can't even do that with a scope and a BR). Mine consistently hits 1/2" @ 100 yds and it is an 18" BHW barrel (P3 Polygonal). 18" is also the shortest that I would go with this cartridge, especially if you are planning on any shots near 200 yds, besides the drop in velocity is too much @ 16" to even consider for a woods gun (ie.... too slow for a proper C-N-C hunting bullet to expand unless you are standing right over it). I have just odered some 123 gr SSTs and 123 gr A-Maxs to test. I only achieved about 2215 fps with a 120 gr NBT and about 2180 with 125 gr NPs, so I would imagine that I am going to be getting 2200 fps or less with either of the 123 gr bullets. This is using CCI small rifle magnum primers and H335. Pretty soon I will be switching everything over to H322 because it burns cleaner, isn't a mess to clean up after loading, and is temperature insensitive to the conditions that I am shooting in.
wild_wild_wes
02-03-13, 10:10
How does the PCC compare to the Grendel? Why would someone want one over the other?
ICANHITHIMMAN
02-03-13, 10:35
Anyone who is a hand loader and has even basic knowledge of case capacity, burn rates and chamber pressures. Can and should have drawn a clear distinction from the onset that the two rounds the Grendel and 6.5 PPC are not comparable. I have been following this from the initial posting, have discussed the round with the OP and reviewed the data on his website. In my opinion he has never made any direct comparison, as to say his round was superior to or in any way equal to the the ballistics claimed by the Grendal. As I stated above it should be very clear even to the novice from the onset they could not be equal.
hockeynick39,
Thank you for the reply,
As I read your post I see two questions and an answer to my question.
First why are my friends and I not able to get sub .5 MOA groups out of this rifle barrel combo? I am not sure that is why I came on this forum to seek help in doing just that.
Why we are complaining about ľ” groups? Because we are a sick and twisted bunch… sorry early morning humor there, the truth is we are a mix of ex snipers, long distance shooters, and engineers.
The standard kill shot for a sniper is a four inch target (head shot with anything short of a 50 BMG). So we set a four inch steel plate at 1000 yards and then bet dinner for the whole group on who hits it the least. Or we will buy three cases of 8 oz water bottles and place them at random distances between 500 and 1000 yards. This works great because the feedback on a hit is instant, three cases can be bought for less than $10 at home depot giving you 108 targets, once you shoot them it takes minutes to pick them up, drop them off at the local recycler, and mother nature stays clean and happy. And the uniform 6 inch tall 2.5 inch wide bottles shining in the sunlight make very easy targets to range using the FFP MOA scopes that we use.
So if you take what I just said and do the math a 1 MOA gun will only get you out to 250 yards before misses are the guns fault if you do your part perfectly, at 1000 yards that becomes a 10 inch group and you are shooting at a 2.5 inch wide target. Do not even bother bringing that gun to the shoot. over 80% of your shoots will be a miss due to the gun. At .5 MOA you are still looking at a 50% miss ration. My Grendel shoots .375 MOA and some reach into the .25 MOA area. This gives me about a 10% chance of a miss due to the gun.
When we started this most of us brought our sniper rigs, with high powered BR scopes to the game, my 300 win mag with a 10-50X56 power scope clicked in to the 1000 yard mark was predictably boring how well it hit. Aim, touch the trigger, hit. Bench rest shooters do this all day long. And not much will knock the 208 grain AMAX off target. Snipers in Iraq and Afghanistan are making kills out to 2000+ yards, so do the math (24 inch wide person/ 2000 yards) on that and you get .012 MOA (granted they miss a lot so that MOA would be 100% hits).
Then the 6.5 Creedmoor came into our circle, the flight path of a 300mag or 338 lapua that we shoot, but with a third the powder and cost of the big boys. This set off a whole shift in the competition and made it fun again. The Grendel entered the world next, even less powder and still able to reach out and touch the little bottles with decent accuracy. Topped with a 6-24X50 FFP vortex with a XLR scope and it is hard to beat.
Dr69’s says all the time that the PCC is a mid to long range cartridge (500 to 1000 yards). After reading this on a lot of forums (he even says that on this forum) Josh bought one and put it on his AR. And F*^%$ing barrel has been his mantra ever since. In all fairness to Josh he is one of if not the best shooter among us. Put his 338 L in his hands and it is awesome to watch, yesterday after missing about 50 times he smiled got up put the AR away, pulled out the 338 L and cleaned our clocks.
Thank you for the answer, we will try H335 we have been using H322 and x-terminator what load do you use with the H335 and how far off the lands are you loading to? At this point we would be willing to bypass the magazine and load to whatever COL works.
Also thanks for the advice on a hunting barrel length, I was making the mistake of using the G’s 200 fps advantage when choosing a 16 inch barrel, the 123 Amax will hit 2400 fps easy out of the 16 with the G. Dr69’s webpage says the 120 can hit 2466 fps out of a 18 inch barrel pushing the pressures to 52,000 psi I was hoping to get 2400 fps out of a 16 inch (average speed drop for a Grendel is 30 fps per inch of barrel) since Dr69 states “55,114 PSI for the 6.5mm PCC” I figured the load could be pushed some more. Taking 2466 fps for the 18 inch barrel and subtracting 60 fps for the two inches of barrel lose, and having a 3000 psi buffer before hitting the cases max. I made the assumption that 2400 fps was within reach. I will keep it at 18 if I go with the PCC. Can you please post what speeds you are getting with the 123 and its load when you get it worked up?
Second question… hunting, I live in New Mexico and hunt deer, elk, and antelope here, and feral pigs in Texas.
You will love the 123gr AMAX it was made for the 6.5 Grendel literally, Bill Alexander and the owner of Hornady are friends and the bullet was made for the Grendel if you look on the Hornady site you will even see it is called the “6.5mm .264 123 gr A-MAX® (Grendel/LBC/Lapua)” I was using it for hunting (before shifting to the 140 AMAX/140 match burner) it will give very reliable kills all the way down to 1600 fps on animals the size of New Mexico mulies and down. Put the bullet within 4 inches of the heart and let it do its job. The C-N-C bullets are a little hard for the lower speeds of the G and PCC, they tend not to open up anywhere below 1800 fps. With that said above 1800 fps they will get the job done very well. If you like all copper bullets then the 120 grain Triple Shox might be worth a look, here is what it can do in the hands of Mark Larue they say the 120 barnes triple shox has the same performance as a 140 grain lead core from the looks of it they are right. At Grendel.com he says he loaded it to 2800 fps. A 400 yard shot on an elk with a one shot kill with a 20 inch correction for wind is very impressive http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_219/164444_Elk______Pics__pg__2_and_8_____LaRue_s_Great_American_Safari_.html&page=2 . The 125gr Nosler Partition is a good choice also http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=10&f=2&t=629779 used on an elk. Keep in mind we are talking short ranges and 2750 to 2800 fps.
So if I have a good rifle that shoots sub .5 MOA groups and can kill elk at 500 yards why would I want to change rounds and shorten the barrel? That is an easy answer… Pigs. They are everywhere in Texas with no bag limits or season (they are listed as pests). But on the ranch we hunt at (rancher wants them gone and we love to put the whole pig in the smoker seems like a great deal) they like to live in the thickets. So the normal routine of spot the animal, take out the kestrel wind meter, range the animal, punch in the distance on the Kestrel, get the bullet drop and wind dope from the meter, aim using the right MOA dots on the tree and squeeze just does not work. It reminds me of what the British said about those bloody American colonials and their guerrilla tactics. “They run and hide shooting at us from the underbrush, they will not stand and fight like true gentlemen”. So the answer is a short fast gun with a range of 200 yards or less with a good set of open sights or a red dot. With all the stories you hear of pig getting the better of a hunter and “it took 20 stitches to sew him up” along with my own close calls, hit one at 100 yards with the first shot (handgun) the second shot was taken at 50 yards, and the kill shot was taken at 25 yards. Yes he was coming at me not me at him. The fact that I have 20 in the magazine gives me comfort, the max I have used from the Grendel so far was two at one pig, the blackout has taken five to get the job done once (three hit the head and just bounced off leaving a gouge and a dent the pig looked up at that point and gave me a clean heart shot which I double tapped), but it is nice to know there are more rounds close at hand.
So why the 6.5 PCC well the grass is tall and the shooting fast so there is not always time to pick up your brass, using old 5.56 brass is a plus when you lose one, (of course now that wolf is selling their 120 MP for $15 a box this benefit is minimized). Still my daughter shoots 5.56 so when the necks split I can make them into 6.5 PCC and go hunting with them without worrying about losing them. As I do now with my 300 blackout. And the 6.5 gives better penetration then the 300 black out does for those hard to penetrate frontal head shots.
Well I have to go reload and clean guns, thank you for your input, and please keep me up to date on your experiences with the PCC, loads, speeds, land distance, and outcome. It is always better to learn from another’s efforts then spend hours flaying in the dark…
How does the PCC compare to the Grendel? Why would someone want one over the other?
the PCC runs about 150-200 fps slower then the Grendel with the same barrel length, bullet, etc.
it can be easily be made from standard 223/5.56 brass, and uses standard 5.56 bolts, mags,etc. making it very easy to change a gun from 223/5.56 to 6.5 PCC, and it is a very affective mid range hunting gun on deer and down game.
the Grendel requires a new bolt (same carrier group can be used as the 223/5.56), a new magazine, and dedicated brass (it can be also be formed from the AK round 7.62×39mm with ease).
as for why pick one over the other if you have a AR 15 and want a 6.5 the PCC is an easier upgrade. the Grendel is more powerful and can use the 140 grain bullets much better.
so it comes down to your needs.
Anyone who is a hand loader and has even basic knowledge of case capacity, burn rates and chamber pressures. Can and should have drawn a clear distinction from the onset that the two rounds the Grendel and 6.5 PPC are not comparable. I have been following this from the initial posting, have discussed the round with the OP and reviewed the data on his website. In my opinion he has never made any direct comparison, as to say his round was superior to or in any way equal to the the ballistics claimed by the Grendal. As I stated above it should be very clear even to the novice from the onset they could not be equal.
Icanhithimman,
I very much respect your opinion and can accept that you believe that way.
but on his website he posted the Grendel load data for a 20 inch barrel and the load data for the 6.5 PCC then highlighted the PCC speed and corresponding bullet's Grendel speeds in red right below where he says "Many have asked how does the 6.5mm PCC round compare to the 6.5 Grendel(R) round" if you look at the data you will be lead to believe that a 20 inch Grendel will run on the average 100 fps slower then the same bullet in the 18 inch 6.5 PCC. that is a direct comparison posted on his website. even the 18 and 20 inch barrels are highlighted in red.
then if you search for a forum and find this one he states:
“I would predict it would match or even exceed Grendelballistics. It would also have the ability to safely run at higher pressures...”
and
“Below are some velocity & energy numbers from actual
6.5mm PCC end users out in the field, some of these
numbers have beat published "G" velocites
(moslty do to the type of bore we use, as
well as the fact that "G" runs at lower
maximum chamber pressures (50K to 52K PSI)
vs. 55,114 PSI for the 6.5mm PCC, when properly
throated the 6.5mm PCC can do even better...”
so from what I read yes the Grendel has more case but the 6.5PCC runs at higher pressures and has a better "type of bore" therefor makes up for its lower case volume by allowing you to push higher pressures.
I am pretty sure I am reading both the website and the forums the way they were intended to read, josh and I had this very discussion right before he bought the barrel. I kept saying less case and no neck as I see it will be hard to get the longer bullets in there without encroaching on case volume and mag COL, he kept saying yeah but the higher pressure limit will make up for it. he was getting his information for the website and it looked good to him.
but as Dr69 stated in response to me above on this forum:
"You are correct that the Grendel will average around 150-200 fps.
faster with the exact same barrel/barrel type, after all the
Grendel does have a 4-5 grain atvantage over the PCC
round...which is why I have always said it is silly to
compare the two directly."
Ihit, I am not on here to argue with anyone, I stated a simple suggestion to Dr69 that was all and it was stated with an intent to help that was all. and I very much liked what he said in his last post.
"In the end the love of the 6.5mm caliber, having options, and
being Americans is what counts. We can agree to disagree on
a few Issues and still be friends at the end of the day"
I like what Dr has done with the round and I really do want to see it come of age. I also I want to see Josh use it to kick my butt next weekend at our shoot so I came on here to ask for help. I like the round and want to see it shoot well.
as for me buying one I am starting to lean way from it, since a nice person just pointed out that unlike the blackout I can not used 5.56 brass with a split neck to make 6.5PCC brass, one is based on the fireball the other a full sized 5.56 case. so my reasons for changing out the blackout are slowly slipping away.
hockeynick39
02-03-13, 14:24
Thanks for the clarification Puravida, you almost had me twisted up because a lot of people draw the wrong conclussions about this cartridge. We are running Hk416 Marine Mags or PRi mags, they have the best COAL length for the PCC. These mags generally run about 2.300" to 2.310" and are good with the heavier bullets. My best group has been with an IMI .223 case, trimmed to 1.640", chamfered, deburred, and sized in the FL die. Prime it with a CCI small rifle magnum primer, 26 gr H335, seat 100 gr bullet to 2.285", and crimp for fireforming. After fireforming, chamfer, deburr, re-size in FL die, clean primer pocket, seat new CCI SMRP, 28.4 gr H335, 100gr Hornady SP (#2610) seated to 2.285", and crimp. This load nets a chronographed 2708 fps out of my 18" barrel. The throat on my 18" BHW barrell was throated and polished to 2.300" by Dr69er too. This load has given me at least 1/2" or less groups @ 100 yds using a 3-9x40 mm Nikon. The Pro Staff scope broke in a highwind (flew off bench and fell on concrete), replaced it with a Simmons 30mm Red Dot (not good for load development or precision shooting, but it worked in a pinch). Then I picked up the Nikon P223, 3x32mm, love it, works great for what it is and for my purposes (hunting and targets 300 yds and less). After fireforming someloads and zeroing the scope at the same time, you could literally one hole shots @ 100 yds off a sandbag. Another load that works great for me and gives roughly 1/2" groups @ 100 yds is with an 85 gr HP Sierra Varminter (#1700), CCI SMRP, 30.6 gr H335, and crimped. The 85 gr load chronoes @ 3054 fps out of the 18" barrel as well. Am still waiting on a trip to try some of my loads on pigs, but I have to travel a minimum of 400 miles for an outside chance for that. Anyhow, hope this information will get you guys going. Good luck and stay safe.
wild_wild_wes
02-03-13, 16:37
the PCC runs about 150-200 fps slower then the Grendel with the same barrel length, bullet, etc.
it can be easily be made from standard 223/5.56 brass, and uses standard 5.56 bolts, mags,etc. making it very easy to change a gun from 223/5.56 to 6.5 PCC, and it is a very affective mid range hunting gun on deer and down game.
the Grendel requires a new bolt (same carrier group can be used as the 223/5.56), a new magazine, and dedicated brass (it can be also be formed from the AK round 7.62×39mm with ease).
as for why pick one over the other if you have a AR 15 and want a 6.5 the PCC is an easier upgrade. the Grendel is more powerful and can use the 140 grain bullets much better.
so it comes down to your needs.
Thanks for the explanation!
hockeynick39,
thank you this is exactly what I came on here looking for.
I will see if I can find some IMI 223 cases, and try trimming them to 1.640”, Josh has always used standard CCI small rifle but the magnum primers make sense. I like to use the CCI #41 military primers in the Grendel and 5.56 nato they run almost as hot as the magnums do. So it would make sense that it works for the PCC, nice catch.
Okay, with bench rest cartridges we never crimp heck my 6.5 Grendel necks are so long and the lapua brass so hard that when I do have to pull a bullet it takes 5 to 10 real hard hits with the bullet puller to get them out. But if you say a crimp is needed then a crimp is what we will use. It does kind of have some reasoning to it. With the short neck and magnum primers you would need a good crimp to get the pressures up enough to really seat the brass in the chamber before the bullet hits the lands. No crimp would mean uneven brass seating/pressures and would give the standard deviations we are seeing… again good catch.
You are using 100 AMAX, to get that .5 MOA? We tired 95 AMAX and they did not do so well, but that was uncrimped and standard primers. I wonder if it is the .390 BC of the 100 over the .365 for the 95. If it is you are really going to like the 123 AMAX at 5.10. After reading your write up I am leaning more towards the crimp and magnum primers making the difference. If you ever work your way up to 140 give the Barnes match burners a try, at .586 they are long and very slippery. And hit like a small bomb.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/6080583/140gr_Barnes_Match_Burner_vs_W
Of course that 260AI was going 2600 fps when it hit that dear at 260 yards basically what my Grendel does at the barrel… lol… but even at the low speeds of the Grendel it does great out to 400 yards or so. At 500 it drops below 1800 fps and all bets are off.
Sorry to hear about the scope the guys always give me a hard time for my vortex, they use Nightforce and you can literally pound a 16 penny nail into a 2x4 with the things, the dealer at the gun show proved that to me by doing just that, I cringed when I saw him hitting a nail with a $2500.00 scope. In Iraq Tim’s was hit by an AK round in the side he put duck tape over it and finished his mission. My only reply to their picking on my vortex is “hey if I break it they replace it for free for life”.
I swear military snipers, you have not laughed until you get a nam era special ops sniper and an Iraq era SEAL sniper drunk and ask them who had the best snipers.
Okay you pushed me off the fence; I have been on the fence about trying the 85gr in my Grendel, but just keep shying away because of the lower BC. At .225 they drop like a rock after 500 yards but they seem like they would be a blast out to 300 yards. Now that I have a reason to buy a box (to help out a friend of course...:rolleyes:) I will have to load some up I guess my load for the 95 grain AMAX will be a good place to start.
The Piggys are over 400 miles round trip for us also, but so worth it. for about $100.00 each we get a great hunting weekend and 300 lbs of pork in the freezer/smoker…. Hard to beat that deal.
This will more then get us going, thank you, sometimes old habits should not be transferred to a new round. The crimp and the magnum primers make sense. Goes against all that we normally do but it does make sense.
May your hog hunt be fruitful your kills be clean, and your trip stitches free….
Thanks for the explanation!
anytime, I am sure the guys here can give you better information on the benefits of the PCC then I can since I am still looking for its sweet spot and have not used it to hunt yet.
The Grendel I can help you a lot with...
hockeynick39
one more question if I may ask, is that a roll crimp, taper crimp or collect crimp?
wild_wild_wes
02-03-13, 19:08
anytime, I am sure the guys here can give you better information on the benefits of the PCC then I can since I am still looking for its sweet spot and have not used it to hunt yet.
The Grendel I can help you a lot with...
I might take you up on that! I decided to do a couple ARs in an alternate caliber, and settled on the Grendel.
I might take you up on that! I decided to do a couple ARs in an alternate caliber, and settled on the Grendel.
just let me know what kind of shooting you want to do and what kind of bullets you want to shoot.
hockeynick39,
thank you this is exactly what I came on here looking for.
I will see if I can find some IMI 223 cases, and try trimming them to 1.640”, Josh has always used standard CCI small rifle but the magnum primers make sense. I like to use the CCI #41 military primers in the Grendel and 5.56 nato they run almost as hot as the magnums do. So it would make sense that it works for the PCC, nice catch.
Okay, with bench rest cartridges we never crimp heck my 6.5 Grendel necks are so long and the lapua brass so hard that when I do have to pull a bullet it takes 5 to 10 real hard hits with the bullet puller to get them out. But if you say a crimp is needed then a crimp is what we will use. It does kind of have some reasoning to it. With the short neck and magnum primers you would need a good crimp to get the pressures up enough to really seat the brass in the chamber before the bullet hits the lands. No crimp would mean uneven brass seating/pressures and would give the standard deviations we are seeing… again good catch.
You are using 100 AMAX, to get that .5 MOA? We tired 95 AMAX and they did not do so well, but that was uncrimped and standard primers. I wonder if it is the .390 BC of the 100 over the .365 for the 95. If it is you are really going to like the 123 AMAX at 5.10. After reading your write up I am leaning more towards the crimp and magnum primers making the difference. If you ever work your way up to 140 give the Barnes match burners a try, at .586 they are long and very slippery. And hit like a small bomb.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/6080583/140gr_Barnes_Match_Burner_vs_W
Of course that 260AI was going 2600 fps when it hit that dear at 260 yards basically what my Grendel does at the barrel… lol… but even at the low speeds of the Grendel it does great out to 400 yards or so. At 500 it drops below 1800 fps and all bets are off.
Sorry to hear about the scope the guys always give me a hard time for my vortex, they use Nightforce and you can literally pound a 16 penny nail into a 2x4 with the things, the dealer at the gun show proved that to me by doing just that, I cringed when I saw him hitting a nail with a $2500.00 scope. In Iraq Tim’s was hit by an AK round in the side he put duck tape over it and finished his mission. My only reply to their picking on my vortex is “hey if I break it they replace it for free for life”.
I swear military snipers, you have not laughed until you get a nam era special ops sniper and an Iraq era SEAL sniper drunk and ask them who had the best snipers.
Okay you pushed me off the fence; I have been on the fence about trying the 85gr in my Grendel, but just keep shying away because of the lower BC. At .225 they drop like a rock after 500 yards but they seem like they would be a blast out to 300 yards. Now that I have a reason to buy a box (to help out a friend of course...:rolleyes:) I will have to load some up I guess my load for the 95 grain AMAX will be a good place to start.
The Piggys are over 400 miles round trip for us also, but so worth it. for about $100.00 each we get a great hunting weekend and 300 lbs of pork in the freezer/smoker…. Hard to beat that deal.
This will more then get us going, thank you, sometimes old habits should not be transferred to a new round. The crimp and the magnum primers make sense. Goes against all that we normally do but it does make sense.
May your hog hunt be fruitful your kills be clean, and your trip stitches free….
Thank you Nick,
Nick has done some great work with his loads with the 6.5mm PCC.
Many of his load recipes are listed on the official 6.5mm PCC website.
As he said himself, with some of his loads he is able to get one hole
groups at 100 yards.
We have other 6.5mm PCC end users with similar results like
.7 MOA @ 200 yards...but I would rather have the actual end
users chime in with their results...
Much of the great accuracy achieved by dedicated 6.5mm PCC
end users has been from attention to detail, careful reloading,
and choosing good equipment that works for them...
Certainly taking the time to trying different load combo's and seeing
which loads,powders,primers,cases work best can't hurt.
hockeynick39
02-04-13, 05:34
Most of the boat tailed bullets eat up the case space and you will not be able to get the velocities with it that you would like. Since the PCC does have a stubby neck, to make the most use out of it I only use flat based bullets. Sorry I didn't clarify that, but thinking that you were an engineer, sniper, and just plain shooter, you would've caught that, my bad. I have done work with 140 gr bullets, even flat based and they are just too long for the PCC to work effectively. The absolute maximum benefit for this cartridge is a 120 gr flat based, soft pointed bullet. The PCC is not a sexy screamer that uses the ultimate BC VLD, like I believe that you are trying to do with this. Not saying that it won't work, but the design limitations squash that pretty good. Again, being that you are an engineer/ shooter, I thought that you would have seen that as well.
I just use a Lee FCD crimp (roll, I believe) that I had ordered through Dr69er as part of my original package, I'm a hunter, not a bench rester. Since I am taking this stuff out to the field, I can't have them falling apart on me while I move around. Use the .223 cases that you have and the CCI #41s (this is what the military uses with their version of H335) and work it up from there. I had to do some ballistic profiling before I came to the loads I have, as well as water measuring, and just good ole reloading too. Just get your heads screwed on away from the BR world and step into a new box with different rules. Physics is your friend, find the limitations with this cartridge and use those to make it's strengths and shine. You'll get there, just takes a bit.
Nick, again thanks for the heads up, I had the belief the 6.5 PCC could use the 144 grain lapua boat tail from Dr69’s website it says,
Pictured here is the Lapua
144 grain FMTBT projectile.
It is the longest 6.5mm pro-
jectile that is still practical in
the 6.5mm PCC cartridge. You
can still use longer and heavier
projectiles if you are looking
to use them for special purpose
uses like suppressor and subsonic
purposses etc.
Typical velocities with the Lapua
144 grain FMJBT projectile in the
6.5mm PCC case very from a low
of about 2,020 fps. to a high of
about 2,228 fps. These velocities
were gained from test barrels in
the 18" & 22" range, while the 16"
length will be a bit less in velocity.
And
The bullets he uses to exceed grendel speeds on his website are all boat tails except the 85 grain sierra.
85 Sierra HP Ramshot
95 Hornady V-Max Ramshot
100 Nosler B-Tip Ramshot
107 Sierra HPBT Ramshot
120 Sierra HPBT Ramshot
Since we had no real starting place we started with what was on his website
If you look at the photo attached (from his website) it shows the 144 being 1.28 long. The match burner is 1.272 long so I thought it would be a go also.
If you run the numbers using the 2228 fps stated by Dr69 it will still be doing 1833 fps with 1045 ft/lbs of energy at 300 yards more than enough for deer and piggies. From your post 300 yards was your target/hunting distances, and 200 yards (for hunting) is mine so I thought it might be worth a try.
Drag Function: G1
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.585
Bullet Weight: 140 gr
Initial Velocity: 2228 fps
Sight Height : 1.5 in
Shooting Angle: 0° Wind Speed: 10 mph
Wind Angle: 90°
Zero Range: 200 yd
Chart Range: 1000 yd
Maximum Range: 6535 yd
Step Size: 100 yd International Standard Atmosphere
Altitude: Sea Level (0 ft)
Barometric Pressure: 29.92 Hg
Temperature: 59° F
Relative Humidity: 50%
Speed of Sound: 1116 fps
Range Elevation Elevation Elevation Windage Windage Windage Time Energy Vel[x+y]
(yd) (in) (MOA) (MIL) (in) (MOA) (MIL) (s) (ft.lbf) (ft/s)
0 -1.50 0.00 0.00 0.04 0.00 0.00 0.00 1543 2228
100 3.24 -3.09 -0.90 0.81 0.77 0.22 0.14 1360 2091
200 0.01 0.00 0.00 3.20 1.52 0.44 0.29 1194 1960
300 -12.30 3.91 1.14 7.36 2.34 0.68 0.45 1045 1833
But what you say makes sense the flat based rounds will give you a lot more case capacity.
Now for long distance work the boat tail is nice to have. An example is the 100 gr SP (2610) that you listed vs the 100 gr AMAX (26101). Fired at 3000 fps, from the same barrel under the same conditions the flat base will drop below the speed of sound before 1000 yards (which as you know causes all kinds of weird stuff to happen to include tumbling). The boat tail will not drop below the speed of sound. The flat base will drop 32 more inches, and a 10 mph wind will cause a the flat base to drift 17 inches farther off target.
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=4a4725fa
So you can see why we tend to like to work with boat tails. We as long distance shooters, snipers, and engineers tend to stay with what we know, but as you said “The absolute maximum benefit for this cartridge is a 120 gr flat based, soft pointed bullet. The PCC is not a sexy screamer that uses the ultimate BC VLD, like I believe that you are trying to do with this. Not saying that it won't work, but the design limitations squash that pretty good.”
And you are the only one that is printing .5 MOA and under, that will step up and help us out.
But you know I still have to wonder, if you look at the trajectory link I posted above I included the 140 match burner at the stated 6.5 PCC speeds Dr69 gives for the 144 Lapua. It drops 144 inches more then my favorite 140 grain Grendel load, with 10 inches more wind drift, which puts it right where my G hits at 1100 yards something my G still handles well it is running out of breath but makes it.
And compared to the 100 grain SP it gives up 119 inches in drop but the time of flight is less and the wind will push the 140 little more than 29 inches less off target then it will the 100 gr SP.
and as you know gravity across a nice flat 1000 yard stretch of land remains the same, so consistently correcting for the 119 inches of drop just means going down one or so more hash marks on a MOA scope.
wind is never consistent across that distance, so correcting for the wind is a lot harder and every inch of drift less the bullet has increases your chances of a solid hit exponentially.
the larger bullet may leave slower but it gets there faster with more speed and a lot more stable then the lighter faster bullet.
One of the things I loved the most about the 6.5 TCU when I shot it for all those years in handgun silhouettes was the 140s moved slow but man was it accurate and when it hit the steel rams they went down like a rock.
Again thanks for the help, we will shift gears and give your recommendations a solid try, run them up a ladder for both distance off the land and powder charge, I am sure we can find the sweet spot with your help.
again thanks for taking the time to help us out,
Nick thanks for Input with your end user field results and thank
you Puravida for understanding that only certain load combos
work well when considering the limitations of the .223 parent
case and COL limitations of the AR-15 platform.
As Nick and other 6.5mm PCC end users have stated they will soon
be trying out the Hornady 123gr. A-Max and the Hornady 123gr. SST
pills to see what type of accuracy and velocity can be had in
the 6.5mm PCC barrel(s).
As soon as we get some testing completed with those pills as well
as getting some more end user field results in we will post the results.
Many of the Hornady pills from 100grs. to 129grs. have done very
well in the 6.5mm PCC . We are hopeful that the newer A-Max & SST
will do well too.
One other note, the 120gr. Speer HotCor Spire Point has done very
well across the board in the 6.5mm PCC. Accuracy and velocity has
been pretty good, and the cost per box of 100 pcs. is very low
at about $19.99 . Many have dropped some nice whitetail
bucks w/ it.
As noted earlier the sweet spot projectile weight range is between
85grs. to 120grs. The very long VLD's will still work but at lower
velocity range of ~ 2,300 fps.-2,325 fps. depending on length/
weight. and Bbl. length...
Thanks Guys.
Nick,
I just got off the phone with Josh, and he said "tell that wonderful man I owe him a case of beer"
from what I could gather he loaded up some 95 AMAX today and hit the range (must be nice to not have to work for a living) anyway he said:
"I did not break .5 MOA but I sure did sneak up on it"
and
"you know how the same load would throw all kinds of weird speeds? well not anymore, SD of 15 fps"
and
"so a five round group of .6 MOA with the first five bullets of a set posted the same .6 MOA as the last five round group of the set."
when we run a ladder we use 25 rounds at each load, this gives us five each five shot groups. what we were seeing before was one group would run .6 the next would run .75 the next might be 1 inch
they were never the same. so what he is saying is that all five each five shot groups were .6 MOA. and even though that is not as small has he wanted it is consistent and that is always a very welcome sign. because accuracy is right around the corner at that point.
also "man are these things touchy a change in 0.01 in COL and it goes from .6 MOA to dear god where did they hit"
"powder the same way, move it by .5 grain and things fall apart"
what did he do different?
heavy roll crimp, the hotter primers (he stole some of my #41s) made a speed change but not a performance change or not as much as the crimp. he did say he was going to load the best velocity with #41s and see if that makes it "even smaller"...
hockeynick39
02-04-13, 19:21
Nick,
I just got off the phone with Josh, and he said "tell that wonderful man I owe him a case of beer"
from what I could gather he loaded up some 95 AMAX today and hit the range (must be nice to not have to work for a living) anyway he said:
"I did not break .5 MOA but I sure did sneak up on it"
and
"you know how the same load would throw all kinds of weird speeds? well not anymore, SD of 15 fps"
and
"so a five round group of .6 MOA with the first five bullets of a set posted the same .6 MOA as the last five round group of the set."
when we run a ladder we use 25 rounds at each load, this gives us five each five shot groups. what we were seeing before was one group would run .6 the next would run .75 the next might be 1 inch
they were never the same. so what he is saying is that all five each five shot groups were .6 MOA. and even though that is not as small has he wanted it is consistent and that is always a very welcome sign. because accuracy is right around the corner at that point.
also "man are these things touchy a change in 0.01 in COL and it goes from .6 MOA to dear god where did they hit"
"powder the same way, move it by .5 grain and things fall apart"
what did he do different?
heavy roll crimp, the hotter primers (he stole some of my #41s) made a speed change but not a performance change or not as much as the crimp. he did say he was going to load the best velocity with #41s and see if that makes it "even smaller"...
Glad to hear things are moving in the right direction. It is like a woman. Be nice and it is a bitch, treat it like the bitch that it is and it purrs all night long.;)
The biggest gain for me was in trying to figure out the water capacity in the pre-formed cases and measuring that against the formed cases and figuring out what I could get away with as far as powder capacity. Especially since the original testing cases were LC10 and all I could scrounge up was some IMI (which had a .2 gr larger capacity than the LC10s). Once you get the water capacity figured, then the powder loads will fall into place during a work up. Especially since you fire formed using a 26 gr load, that's your starting point with the OAL of 2.285".
Glad to hear things are moving in the right direction. It is like a woman. Be nice and it is a bitch, treat it like the bitch that it is and it purrs all night long.;)
The biggest gain for me was in trying to figure out the water capacity in the pre-formed cases and measuring that against the formed cases and figuring out what I could get away with as far as powder capacity. Especially since the original testing cases were LC10 and all I could scrounge up was some IMI (which had a .2 gr larger capacity than the LC10s). Once you get the water capacity figured, then the powder loads will fall into place during a work up. Especially since you fire formed using a 26 gr load, that's your starting point with the OAL of 2.285".
now that put a smile on my face isn't that the truth.
we were going to try that next, the Grendel loves CFE223 so if we can find a load that works well with CFE223 then that would be a double blessing, since the 5.56 and the Grendel acquire there best speeds with the lowest pressure using it we always have 20 or so lbs laying around between us. so for that project we will have to go back to rock bottom and start with water capacity and move up from there.
but the first hurdle is taken care of from the sound of what Josh is telling me, thanks in very large part to your help. so now that we have some hope that this thing will start hitting what we aim at it is time to start really doing some load workups and give it a real effort.
hockeynick39
02-05-13, 05:22
If you guys do work up some good loads with the CFE223, please post it regardless of results. I am highly interested in this powder, but have not jumped the gun yet. Most guys have stated modest gains with it in 5.56, .204, and a few in Grendel. I haven't heard whether the powder is temperature insensitive, ball, extruded, or what, other than it eats up the copper residue left in the barrel for more sustained and prolonged shooting between rounds of cleaning.
If you guys do work up some good loads with the CFE223, please post it regardless of results. I am highly interested in this powder, but have not jumped the gun yet. Most guys have stated modest gains with it in 5.56, .204, and a few in Grendel. I haven't heard whether the powder is temperature insensitive, ball, extruded, or what, other than it eats up the copper residue left in the barrel for more sustained and prolonged shooting between rounds of cleaning.
I will do it is the least I can do to return the favor.
It is a great powder and in the 6.5 Grendel it was what pushed it from medium to long range shooting to a round that is just flat long range.
If you look at the 100 grain AMAX for example the best anyone was getting with it was 2800 fps and only a few powders met that, enter CFE223 and now 3000 fps is easy to reach with low pressures and dead accuracy.
In the 5.56 not so much it and varget (my old standby for 5.56, 300 win, and 308) run hand in hand always within in 50 fps or so of each other.
Now for grain size they say it is a ball powder but I would say more like sand the problem with varget is for real accuracy (talking 77 grain bullets at 1000 yards) you have to hand weigh each load because it just does not feed through a powder measure (+/- 0.1 grains) so hand weighing is a must.
With CFE223 it is so fine that it always comes out dead on (+/- .02 or less grains), so that alone made it worth changing over. Then it also costs about $25 less for a 8lb jug the Varget.
As for heat, well we played with that too, I swear sometimes they act more like mad scientist then shooters, we took varget and CFE and loaded up 5.56 rounds using 55 grain Varmint bullets. Then threw half of them in the freezer over night, and kept them on ice for the ride to the range. The others we let be at normal ambient temp 75 degrees that day.
So what did we find, well the cold varget bullets verses the 35 degree hotter bullets increased by an average speed of 7 fps, considering the standard deviation on these rounds was 15 fps it was really hard to see a difference on the target at 100 yards.
The CFE223 gave a 15 fps increase on average and again on target it was hard to tell, the group just opened up a little. Hodgon says CFE223 is not part of its extreme power set but even being a single base powder it behaves well. I think you will see more change due to the density of the colder/hotter air the bullet is flying through then the change in powder temperature.
And your last question copper residue in the barrel, well that one was funny, after 10 rounds my receiver/bolt carrier group was as dirty as 100 rounds of varget would make it (I use a NIX coated CG so it is very noticeable. My first thoughts were great a dirty powder this will not take long to bind up my gun. However, to my surprise 500 rounds later it was not any worse then at 10 rounds. Moreover, my gun was running very slick and smooth.
I got home took out the bolt carrier group and tossed it in the sonic cleaner for two cycles. After two cycles, I went to scrape the carbon off the back of the bolt (you know what I mean we all break down and buy a nice tool to scrap this off right) and there was none, and I mean none just shiny silver finish. So I flipped the scraper tool around and went to scrape the carbon out of the carrier and again nothing just shinny silver finish looking back.
So I then started on the barrel, looking down it, it was covered in black soot. I ran my bore snake through it three times with good old hopes 9, on the first pass you get a lot of black, by the third there is nothing coming out, then I ran a patch with hopes copper out, and left it on the chair for the night. With Varget I always get this puddle of green goo below the barrel the next morning. I had nothing this time. After shooting 500 rounds, I was expecting a three-day fight to get it clean. I ran a new patch and it was clean, so I used the bore snake with some barrel oil/conditioner and put it away.
They say it “swipes the bore clean with every shot” I think it is more like a Moly coating is laid down when the bullet is shot and then the next bullet pushes it out the bore depositing the next dusting/coating of Moly. Each bullet riding on the previous bullets dusting of coating, but not imbedding it in the bore, like Moly bullets do. Imagine stopping between each shot and dusting your bore down with powdered graphite if you will.
If you look on the photo on the hodgon website of the cut away barrels you can see what I am talking about, look that how black the bore of the CFE223 barrel is and how the soot has a light powder look to it.
As a powder for the Grendel it is very hard to beat. LEVERevolution with the 130 to 140 class bullets can hold its own against it. but even the old bench rest standard XBR runs 100 fps slower (very accurately probably the most accurate of all powder in a BR, but slower if you want to hit something faraway with a BR class round use this powder and adjust for gravity).
Anyway, I hope this helps you out Nick…
hockeynick39
02-08-13, 05:46
Just got my box of Hornady 123 gr SSTs last night:D. Looked everywhere I could to find a length of these, but didn't and measured 10% population of them. Came up with an average of 1.230" amazingly enough, using digital calipers. Then ran the parameters through QuickLoad (my trimmed/ fireformed IMI brass has a 33.5 gr water capacity) and came up with 24.8 gr of H335, 2.285" OAL (my rifle's throat is set at 2.300"), for an approximate velocity of 2353 fps out of an 18" barrel. QL has been within +/- 100 fps against a chronograph, usually faster than the prediction QL, especially when magnum primers are used (with ball powders, extruded stick uses standard primers). I also crimp all my rounds and this may also bring a small jump in the fps. Will follow up with full range report soon and chronographing the loads in Spring.
Just got my box of Hornady 123 gr SSTs last night:D. Looked everywhere I could to find a length of these, but didn't and measured 10% population of them. Came up with an average of 1.230" amazingly enough, using digital calipers. Then ran the parameters through QuickLoad (my trimmed/ fireformed IMI brass has a 33.5 gr water capacity) and came up with 24.8 gr of H335, 2.285" OAL (my rifle's throat is set at 2.300"), for an approximate velocity of 2353 fps out of an 18" barrel. QL has been within +/- 100 fps against a chronograph, usually faster than the prediction QL, especially when magnum primers are used (with ball powders, extruded stick uses standard primers). I also crimp all my rounds and this may also bring a small jump in the fps. Will follow up with full range report soon and chronographing the loads in Spring.
That's great Nick, let's hope it does even better than what QL predicts...
The Hornady loads seem to do well w/ the 6.5mm PCC round, let's hope
that tradition continues...
It is very hard to find the Hornady 123gr. A-Max & the 123gr. SST
pills anywhere in stock, some guys are just getting them
via back order since they were released from Hornady...
They both seem very promissing w/ excellent BC's.
There is no doubt you will get them tweaked and shooting nice and
accurate.
Good Luck.
That's great
It is very hard to find the Hornady 123gr. A-Max & the 123gr. SST
pills anywhere in stock, some guys are just getting them
via back order since they were released from Hornady...
They both seem very promising w/ excellent BC's
Good Luck.
Dr69,
it is actually pretty easy (well sort of) I have this link
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0000326171
on my toolbar as part of my morning routine, I check this along with other links for the rounds I use, they usually have them in stock +/- 1 day of their expected delivery dates. and the stock is real time so if you click on the order link when they are in stock yours are put on hold for you. and they are sent out. the next day normally (they are running 5 days behind right now because of the huge demand). if you buy enough to get you through the month, you always have them on hand, since they tend to show up for an hour or two (8 am- 10 am) mountain time, at least twice a month.
you can also get great deals on bulk,
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0005022927
a 120 flat base, soft point with a cannelure for the crimp. of course this big a box only shows up twice a year.
the one my creedmoor loves shows up every other month in lots of 1000.
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0011550379
the Grendel likes them also (0.375 MOA) but not the single ragged holes the Match burner makes.
the other nice thing is delivery dates tend to fall on different days for the same bullet in smaller quantities.
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0011549823
so if you can not find the bullet in large numbers check the next lower amount. the 1000 lot will be in stock on the 13 of this month the 250 lot is in stock now.
anyway, this is my system for keeping a good supply line of bullets, works great....
hockeynick39
02-08-13, 17:48
A-Max bullets showed up today:cool:. Just as I figured, the bullet length is the same:confused:. Oh well, the testing must go on! Also will be trying these with out the polymer tips, just because we can;).
A-Max bullets showed up today:cool:. Just as I figured, the bullet length is the same:confused:. Oh well, the testing must go on! Also will be trying these with out the polymer tips, just because we can;).
I thought the 123 gr. SST was supposed to be a little bit shorter
than the 123 gr. A-Max...
hockeynick39
02-12-13, 15:37
By about maybe .005" if I remember right. it was so close, I called them the same length.
I thought the 123 gr. SST was supposed to be a little bit shorter
than the 123 gr. A-Max...
No, they are very close to each other, the SST is made to be a hunting round so the components are heavier and denser (thicker walls and denser lead core), so you would think it would be shorter than the AMAX which is a target/varmint/small game round with lighter less dense components. However, you have to remember the bullets were designed with the Grendel/lapua/LBC in mind. This means that they really do not care about how long the bullet is since all it has to be is shorter then a 140 grain Lapua.
Therefore, they kept the bullets as long as they could. In the case of the SST they extended both the bullet lead, (by moving the ogive back) and extended the boat tail, making the bullet match a J6 profile. This let them keep the G1 BC at 0.510 identical to the AMAX. The AMAX due to its lighter components has a ogive that is farther forward and a shorter boat tail more like a J4 profile. This lets the normal shooter use the cheaper AMAX for target and varmint shooting. Then shift to SST for hunting without having to change his drop chart, or get use to a different bullet drop (for those that do not use a drop chart).
This gives the shooter a nice long sleek bullet (read that high G1 BC) for long distance shooting (500-1000 yards) and a great bullet for hunting without having to change anything in his set up or charts.
The only down fall to this is the ogive is moved, so this can cause issues for some reloaders. If you use a bullet seater that uses the tip of the bullet to seat the round (lee dies, rcbs lower end dies, and hornady lower end dies) the change in ogives will cause the AMAX to seat closer to the lands then the SST. if you work your load up for the SST and seat the bullet .005 off the lands like a lot of BR shooters like to do, then load the AMAX using the same setting the bullet will touch the lands and as we all know this can cause major shifts in pressure with catastrophic results.
My seater uses the ogive to seat the bullet so in my case the SST did not fit in my magazine when I used the same setting I had for the AMAX.
Just as a side note does anyone know where you can buy 5.56/223 ammo for less than a dollar a round. I never thought I would see the day when Cheaper then dirt would sell Lake City ammo for a dollar a round. I had to laugh when a box of PMC 223 ammo was on the shelf of the local Sportsman’s warehouse for $27 a box of 20 and the 6.5 Grendel and 6.5 Creedmoor was $17 a box of 20 scary what the call for a gun ban can do. Who in their right mind would pay the same price for a box of 223 PMC that they do for a box of 300 win mags.
also when did a PMAG go from $13 each to $99 each?
Anything AR, AK, 223/5.56, X39, MSR is in flames as far as pricing
is concerned...makes you worry when or if it will stop. :(
also when did a PMAG go from $13 each to $99 each?
Fallen asleep for the past 2 months?
Fallen asleep for the past 2 months?
bought two from a local gun store three weeks ago for $13 each, 20 rounders. cheaper then dirt has them for $99... rude rude awakening... and here I was enjoying my sleep... :sad:
18" 6.5 PCC w/ Noveske switch block in my LMT MRP. Had a rough cut chamber that BHW replaced. Only put a few of my reloads through the new barrel and had a cycling issue. Got sidetracked and have not gotten back to testing loads. Hope to make some time soon.
12" 6.8 SPC II / 18" 6.5 PCC barrels
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx166/jasonusvi/New6568.jpg
http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx166/jasonusvi/pcc1.jpg
These pictures are very, very bad for me. An MRP is exactly the setup I was envision this being best for (a "wildcatter" gun specifically to test different rounds and loads for them), and I've been mulling over 6-6.5mm ARs for years. Those and 7mm Grendels like Kurt's. Just wish Grendel mags were better...
-B
These pictures are very, very bad for me. An MRP is exactly the setup I was envision this being best for (a "wildcatter" gun specifically to test different rounds and loads for them), and I've been mulling over 6-6.5mm ARs for years. Those and 7mm Grendels like Kurt's. Just wish Grendel mags were better...
-B
Jason has some very nice gear...he is a great guy, met him personally.
hockeynick39
03-10-13, 17:04
WOW, we got some sun for once in the North Country! Didn't let it go to waste either. Hit the range today with my shorty AR and put some Hornady 123 gr SSTs on paper using H322 and H335. Did not chronograph the loads because the reflection from the snow would've skewed the results (shadowing). Don't know if I'm really disappointed or not yet, as the groups were a little larger than normal all around except for the initial loads. Here are some targets that were shot at 100 yds.
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/123grSSTandH335001_zps41ead1fb.jpg
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/123grSSTandH322001_zps5864b3cc.jpg
As you can see the H335 is tight and the H335 is spread out just a tad, but both are plenty good for shots out to 300 yds. Next test will be with clipped polymer tips, bullets remeasured, and data put into QuickLoad to see how much difference there is. Then it's off to the range for more fun. When the snow melts, I will break out the chronograph to get some real numbers on these.
WOW, we got some sun for once in the North Country! Didn't let it go to waste either. Hit the range today with my shorty AR and put some Hornady 123 gr SSTs on paper using H322 and H335. Did not chronograph the loads because the reflection from the snow would've skewed the results (shadowing). Don't know if I'm really disappointed or not yet, as the groups were a little larger than normal all around except for the initial loads. Here are some targets that were shot at 100 yds.
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/123grSSTandH335001_zps41ead1fb.jpg
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/123grSSTandH322001_zps5864b3cc.jpg
As you can see the H335 is tight and the H335 is spread out just a tad, but both are plenty good for shots out to 300 yds. Next test will be with clipped polymer tips, bullets remeasured, and data put into QuickLoad to see how much difference there is. Then it's off to the range for more fun. When the snow melts, I will break out the chronograph to get some real numbers on these.
Nick those groups don't look to shabby at all for 100 yards !
BoringGuy45
03-20-13, 13:26
Coming in late here.
Looks like a pretty awesome cartridge! I hope it takes off.
Any tests yet with barrels 16" and shorter?
Also, purely hypothetical, what would best the best self-defense/combat load for the 6.5 PCC from a 16 or less barrel in your opinion, Dr69er?
Coming in late here.
Looks like a pretty awesome cartridge! I hope it takes off.
Any tests yet with barrels 16" and shorter?
Also, purely hypothetical, what would best the best self-defense/combat load for the 6.5 PCC from a 16 or less barrel in your opinion, Dr69er?
Hi there,
Yes we will be getting a 16" Bbl. for field testing very soon (couple
of weeks).
Also got some good confirmation from the pressure testing lab on
the submitted loads, and even the hottest loads submitted maxed
out at ~ 62K PSI chamber pressure(s) slightly less than
5.56 mm NATO parent case. Detailed numbers to come...
The surprising part was how well the 6.5mm PCC did in using sub-
sonic loads (144gr./155gr. Lapua pills), I was Informed that the
round performed "Excellent" in terms of cycling, functioning, accuracy
and overall stability. We did not ask for the round to be tested using
subsonic loads BTW, but it turned out to be a big plus for those that
would want it for such uses. The owner of the lab was "very Impressed
and I believe It would make a superior subsonic round, even more
Impressive than the .300 BO, It would cycle 100% with a long 22" Bbl."
The best rounds for the shorter carbine length barrels are in the 85gr.
to 100gr. weight class...my personal choices would be: 85gr. TNT,
95gr. V-Max., 100gr Nosler BT, 100gr. Nosler Pro Hunter,
100gr. Berger BTHP, and the 100gr.,
Barnes TTSX (massive penetration).
It would then be a matter of which one gives you the best accuracy/
performance with your particular barrel/set-up.
Thanks.
Now this round is interesting. It's a shame that .300 USELESS BLK gets all the propaganda. :rolleyes:
BoringGuy45
03-20-13, 14:49
Hi there,
Yes we will be getting a 16" Bbl. for field testing very soon (couple
of weeks).
Also got some good confirmation from the pressure testing lab on
the submitted loads, and even the hottest loads submitted maxed
out at ~ 62K PSI chamber pressure(s) slightly less than
5.56 mm NATO parent case. Detailed numbers to come...
The surprising part was how well the 6.5mm PCC did in using sub-
sonic loads (144gr./155gr. Lapua pills), I was Informed that the
round performed "Excellent" in terms of cycling, functioning, accuracy
and overall stability. We did not ask for the round to be tested using
subsonic loads BTW, but it turned out to be a big plus for those that
would want it for such uses. The owner of the lab was "very Impressed
and I believe It would make a superior subsonic round, even more
Impressive than the .300 BO, It would cycle 100% with a long 22" Bbl."
The best rounds for the shorter carbine length barrels are in the 85gr.
to 100gr. weight class...my personal choices would be: 85gr. TNT,
95gr. V-Max., 100gr Nosler BT, 100gr. Nosler Pro Hunter,
100gr. Berger BTHP, and the 100gr.,
Barnes TTSX (massive penetration).
It would then be a matter of which one gives you the best accuracy/
performance with your particular barrel/set-up.
Thanks.
I was thinking 100gr. Seems like it would be a nice balance in weight (for terminal performance and performance against barriers), length (for higher BC), and velocity (for range and trajectory).
Great though. Can't wait to see the results! :)
Please explain how this is a new round? Every part of this mirrors the 6.5 Grendel and the .264 LBC. This doesn't seem very innovative when the 6.5 Grendel has been around for a few years and is commercially available. This is like creating a "new" truck the GMC Sierra when everybody has been driving Silverados around for a few years. Give me something with this to be impressed and want to set my 6.5 Grendel down or my 6mmAR Turbo. This is a copy...
Please explain how this is a new round? Every part of this mirrors the 6.5 Grendel and the .264 LBC. This doesn't seem very innovative when the 6.5 Grendel has been around for a few years and is commercially available. This is like creating a "new" truck the GMC Sierra when everybody has been driving Silverados around for a few years. Give me something with this to be impressed and want to set my 6.5 Grendel down or my 6mmAR Turbo. This is a copy...
This round has nothing to do with the 6.5 Grendel/.264 LBC .
The Grendel/LBC are based on a different parent case
(.220 Russian).
The 6.5mm PCC is based on the .223/5.56mm NATO parent case.
It is a modernized TCU design and is specifically designed for the
AR-15 platform.
While the Grendel is limited to a maximum chamber pressure of 50K
PSI...The 6.5mm PCC is designed for a maximum of 62K PSI, same
as the 5.56mm NATO cartridge, using the same bolt, mags,
and components as the .223/5.56mm NATO.
hockeynick39
03-22-13, 14:45
That is outstanding news Doc!:D Now instead of plugging in 55114 PSI, I can use 62,000 PSI for my load data:neo:. Only bad part is, with the increase in powder charge, there may be a point of diminishing returns with different powders per bullet weight. Guess this calls for another round of testing or a thousand:cool:.
looks like an interesting cartridge. alot of talk of 16-22" barrels in this thread. would the 6.5 pcc perform well out of 10-14.5" barrels?
looks like an interesting cartridge. alot of talk of 16-22" barrels in this thread. would the 6.5 pcc perform well out of 10-14.5" barrels?
Double Tap
We have not tested the 6.5mm PCC in short SBR length barrels...but
ballistic modeling shows a similar velocity pattern to the
5.56mm NATO cartridge in SBR lengths...
If I could get 2600-2800 fps out say ........ A 12.5-14.5" with 80-95gr projectils, then I would be extremely excited about this round. Does that sound realistic for the 6.5?
If I could get 2600-2800 fps out say ........ A 12.5-14.5" with 80-95gr projectils, then I would be extremely excited about this round. Does that sound realistic for the 6.5?
Since we can get over 3,000 fps. with 85gr. pills with a 18" tube, 2,600 fps. minimum should be doable in the 6.5mm PCC easily...
Well, scrap that blackout build...... I'm in.
Since we can get over 3,000 fps. with 85gr. pills with a 18" tube, 2,600 fps. minimum should be doable in the 6.5mm PCC easily...
Following this thread with interest. However, the lightest bonded or all copper bullets in 6.5 mm appear to be 100 grains. Will be interested to see any an all SBR testing as barrels longer than 16" seem to be reserved for prairie dog hunters and classic AR collectors and definitely don't have a place in my safe (since the world revolves around me ;)).
Please explain how this is a new round? Every part of this mirrors the 6.5 Grendel and the .264 LBC. This doesn't seem very innovative when the 6.5 Grendel has been around for a few years and is commercially available. This is like creating a "new" truck the GMC Sierra when everybody has been driving Silverados around for a few years. Give me something with this to be impressed and want to set my 6.5 Grendel down or my 6mmAR Turbo. This is a copy...
Ironfins,
I have the Grendel well actually the 264LBC, and my shooting partner has a 6.5PCC.
So I think I can answer your question with little or no bias.
For you there is nothing worth looking at in the 6.5 PCC. No reason at all you should even bother.
You would need new dies, new bolt, new magazines, a new barrel, and new brass. In addition, you would do all of this just to lose 150-200 fps of speed and the Kinetic energy that goes with it. Which will knock you down on raw killing power, and put you in the class range of hunting animals up to but not including elk at shorter ranges. And you loose a little accuracy in the larger pills.
So for you there would be no gain at all.
Now for someone like my 10 year old daughter (who already owns an AR15 in 5.56) a very different case can be made. All I have to do is buy a new barrel (probably once she shoots out her 5.56 barrel at 5000 rounds) and dies and now she has a great gun for teaching her to hunt deer, antelope and pigs.
I already have a shit load of lake city brass in 5.56 that can be changed over to 6.5 PCC very easily. It uses the same bolt and magazines so the trade is easy enough, it is a mild shooter, kicks less than the Grendel and can be loaded with a heavy 140 for a slow but heavy hitting bullet that is easy on the shoulder of a 10 year old. And a great little pill for deer. The Grendel (or at least mine) loses accuracy when you down load it. The PCC at full load is already down loaded so it makes for a milder shooter.
For someone looking for a simple upgrade for the AR15 in 5.56 to a 6.5 caliber the 6.5PCC is a nice option, without having to go with a full change over.
For someone (larger then a child) building a new AR without any pre-existing components (i.e bolts, brass, magazines, etc) I would tell them to go with a 264LBC/Grendel in that case we are both in the same boat.
My rifle will stay 6.5LBC but my kids will probably wear a PCC barrel or two before making the jump to 6.5LBC.
If I could get 2600-2800 fps out say ........ A 12.5-14.5" with 80-95gr projectils, then I would be extremely excited about this round. Does that sound realistic for the 6.5?
Kenndapp,
PCC round is based on a 6.5 TCU, my 6.5 TCU contender would reach 2600 with the 95 grain bullets in a 14 inch barrel with little problem. and that was keeping the pressure limits at 48,000 CUP. the AR platform can handle 60,000-63,000 cups with ease. so the 6.5PCC should reach that speed with little problems.
as a side note the 6.5 whisper was able to reach 2400 from 12 inch sub barrels during testing with 85 grain bullets and it gives up 30% case capacity to the 6.5PCC.
hope this helps...
Nick,
have you tried the 85 grain sierra varmint bullets yet?
the PCC hit .25 to .375 groups out to 300 yards this weekend with them. accuracy goes out the window after that but they are fun on water filled 16 oz bottles and gallon jugs...
DR69er,
hey I got myself in a argument about the benefits of the 6.5PCC over the blackout yesterday. what can you tell me about the subsonic testing you said was being done by the testing company you have working on the 6.5PCC? what weights are they using? have they tried the 160 grain bullets?
hockeynick39
03-26-13, 16:44
Nick,
have you tried the 85 grain sierra varmint bullets yet?
the PCC hit .25 to .375 groups out to 300 yards this weekend with them. accuracy goes out the window after that but they are fun on water filled 16 oz bottles and gallon jugs...
Yup sure have and got about the same accuracy only at 100 yds! Don't have a range to stretch the shots out any yet:(. My load is 30.6 gr H335, CCI 450 SMRP, and OAL 2.285". This load nets 2861 fps from my 18" barrel. I will be revisiting this bullet using H322 and increasing the pressure a little bit to see what I can pump out of it.
DR69er,
hey I got myself in a argument about the benefits of the 6.5PCC over the blackout yesterday. what can you tell me about the subsonic testing you said was being done by the testing company you have working on the 6.5PCC? what weights are they using? have they tried the 160 grain bullets?
Hello all,
Yes they did try them with the "heaviest loads" which normally
means 160 grs. for the 6.5mm class...I olny recieved the very
early/basic data from them...more details to follow as they
continue testing...They were "very Impressed with the
accuracy and reliability in subsonic form even with
longer Bbl. lengths ".
Nick,
have you tried the 85 grain sierra varmint bullets yet?
the PCC hit .25 to .375 groups out to 300 yards this weekend with them.
accuracy goes out the window after that but they are fun on water filled 16 oz bottles and gallon jugs...
Puravida, If you can achieve that type of accuracy with the 6.5mm PCC round, you are blowing away 98% of the precision semi auto's
in exsistance today using light weight high velocity lower BC pills !!!
OK gents,
Full field testing with the new Hornady 123gr. A-Max and the new Hornady 123gr. SST is slated to begin by the end of the month...
It will of course Include both velocity and accuracy data.
Stay tuned.
Puravida, If you can achieve that type of accuracy with the 6.5mm PCC round, you are blowing away 98% of the precision semi auto's
in exsistance today using light weight high velocity lower BC pills !!!
Dr69 your crack me up sometimes, please read that post as it was meant, .25 to .375 MOA out to 300 yards.
with select loads my grendel will hit those numbers all day long. and most long range competition shooters will change out a barrel when the groups gets over .375 MOA. that is not in the top 98% by a long shot. especially when you are talking the bullet going to shit after 300 yards.
the world record light gun 1000 yard group right now sits at 1.39" for a five shot group that is .139 MOA with the average group being under 1.5 inches for the 2,000,000 competitors world wide going for it.
do you know what those guns print at 100 after you remove wind, bullet/brass variations, power load weight difference, etc. that show up so much more at 1000 yards?
with my 300 win mag heavy gun I do not even bother trying to take a group at less then 300 yards because it is just to hard to measure the single ragged hole it leaves at 100.
Dr, that kind of group just gets it close to what my 6.5 grendel will do with multiple loads out to 1000 yards.
Nick's help is slowly bringing the 6.5PPC into a fun and promising varmint gun. but that kind of accuracy with any bullet over 95 grains with the PCC is still an elusive pipe dream for us.
Yup sure have and got about the same accuracy only at 100 yds! Don't have a range to stretch the shots out any yet:(. My load is 30.6 gr H335, CCI 450 SMRP, and OAL 2.285". This load nets 2861 fps from my 18" barrel. I will be revisiting this bullet using H322 and increasing the pressure a little bit to see what I can pump out of it.
Nick, we got 3000 =/- 10 fps from the 24 inch with 30 grains H322 with some pretty flat primers, I would not shoot a load like that a lot but it was fun to play with. very very heavy taper crimp by the way, the PCC seems to love a crimp.... :D
Well Greg, my ever envious critic, perhaps If you ever develop your
wildcat one day you would know how much time, effort, and
money it takes to test and develop a new wildcat...
You already know I am a family man with a normal full time job,
and wildcatting work is part-time for me...
I know you are retired and you seem to have way to much time on your hands
and love to criticize many peoples work on this any many other forums...
so please, don't come here waste everyone's time.
All the 6.5mm PCC barrels that come to my shop are all Inspected,
gauged, throated, polished, have the M4 feed ramps contoured
& polished, checked for headspace, gas ports diameters are
checked and lightly chamfered, and lastly they are function
tested before they are shipped to there new loving homes.
Perhaps this explains whythey are so accurate and reliable
with the end users, many of whom have posted there results
here and on many other AR forums...The whole point of the
pressure testing was to verify maximum pressure levels with
both un-throated and throated chambers cut to a specific
length(s), so safe pressure limits can be established. The
maximum pressure difference was exactly as we predicted at
4K PSI with the hottest loads tested. Any Gunsmith,
Engineer, Designer etc. knows that a professional
throating kit has a micrometer or double ring type stop
for precision length of cut. So of course the throated
chambers are all within .005" or lessof each other.
Most people know that a vast majority of wildcat
cartridges are not pressure tested or have SAAMI
approval.
Both myself and my field testers have a combined 80 + years
of reloading, hunting, and Engineering experience. We try are
hardest to get things right...and we have all (thankfully) done
a great job so far.
As a matter of fact, I have another tier One AR manufacturer
coming on board soon and we will be signing a agreement
and releasing a6.5mm PCC Spec. II style design based on
the results of our throated chamber...They will specialize
in tactical style Melonited barrels based on a specific rifling
type, contour, and twist rate etc. So in other words they
were Impressed enough with the rounds performance
parameters to Include it in there upcoming production
schedule. They are also very Interested in producing
SBR and pistol length barrels in the 6.5mm PCC caliber
and want to run them subsonic.
People come to these forums to learn, express Ideas, and ask legit
questions on things they are not sure of, etc. They don't come here
to snipe at someone they don't like, or are envious of, or if
they don't have anything better to do other than start some trouble.
I know you have tried on other forums to get me thrown off or
start some trouble and thankfully you have been largely unsuccessful.
Please don't accept my kindness for weakness, If you attack me or
my wildcat on this or any other forum I will defend my self.
So again, please find someone else to criticize or attack unfairly.
Sorry guys for this extended post...
Dr69,
What he is asking is not that far off, and by answering him honestly and with full disclosure you greatly negate any fears of people who are potentially looking at buying into your wildcat. By keeping this all a secret, you are just feeding the fire of fear and bad mouthing people will have for any wildcat.
Why not give us the full information, and print out what the loads being tested are, power, bullet, the pressures they are hitting, velocities achieved, LOC, and accuracy reached? Along with what the chamber measurements are. So that people (like myself) do not try a load that was fine in the test chamber but because the barrel we are playing with has closer lands may blow this gun (shades of the 223/5.56 detonations).
It is not only good practice it is the only honest safe way to go. You have different chambers out there I am sure you have even short and long chambered barrels for customers. What would happen if a newbie gets hold of one of your 140 grain loads posted by you on your page intended for a “camber cut for VDL bullets” and loads it in a short chamber barrel? If the bullet touches the lands, the outcome will damage the gun at best be lethal at worst.
Not a criticism just my two cents worth, the last thing your new rounds needs are posts on the internet of how “supplied loads” blew up their gun.
Dr69 your crack me up sometimes, please read that post as it was meant, .25 to .375 MOA out to 300 yards.
with select loads my grendel will hit those numbers all day long. and most long range competition shooters will change out a barrel when the groups gets over .375 MOA. that is not in the top 98% by a long shot. especially when you are talking the bullet going to shit after 300 yards.
the world record light gun 1000 yard group right now sits at 1.39" for a five shot group that is .139 MOA with the average group being under 1.5 inches for the 2,000,000 competitors world wide going for it.
do you know what those guns print at 100 after you remove wind, bullet/brass variations, power load weight difference, etc. that show up so much more at 1000 yards?
with my 300 win mag heavy gun I do not even bother trying to take a group at less then 300 yards because it is just to hard to measure the single ragged hole it leaves at 100.
Dr, that kind of group just gets it close to what my 6.5 grendel will do with multiple loads out to 1000 yards.
Nick's help is slowly bringing the 6.5PPC into a fun and promising varmint gun. but that kind of accuracy with any bullet over 95 grains with the PCC is still an elusive pipe dream for us.
Well we have to put that in context, condsidering the 6.5mm PCC
round only has a nominal ~30gr. case capacity vs. other rifles w/
36gr. to 60+gr. case capacities...Sure the little 6.5mm PCC round
can reach 1000 yards with the right loads and marksman, but It
needs a bit of work to achieve It.
All things considered it does quite well within it's design parameters,
excellent overall accuracy, decent velocity, low recoil, low cost
to reload, etc.
Dr69,
What he is asking is not that far off, and by answering him honestly and with full disclosure you greatly negate any fears of people who are potentially looking at buying into your wildcat. By keeping this all a secret, you are just feeding the fire of fear and bad mouthing people will have for any wildcat.
Why not give us the full information, and print out what the loads being tested are, power, bullet, the pressures they are hitting, velocities achieved, LOC, and accuracy reached? Along with what the chamber measurements are. So that people (like myself) do not try a load that was fine in the test chamber but because the barrel we are playing with has closer lands may blow this gun (shades of the 223/5.56 detonations).
It is not only good practice it is the only honest safe way to go. You have different chambers out there I am sure you have even short and long chambered barrels for customers. What would happen if a newbie gets hold of one of your 140 grain loads posted by you on your page intended for a “camber cut for VDL bullets” and loads it in a short chamber barrel? If the bullet touches the lands, the outcome will damage the gun at best be lethal at worst.
Not a criticism just my two cents worth, the last thing your new rounds needs are posts on the internet of how “supplied loads” blew up their gun.
Sorry guys I have been in Hospital for the last several days...did not
get a chance to resond to some of the posts here...
Puravida, It may have come off a bit harsh on my return fire but
that poster has a history with me and other wildcaters and shooters
and he loves to critique unfairly and make unwarranted attacks etc.
Most sane people will not take that lying down.
Even the hottest loads that were tested in both short and long
throated chambers both were considered safe by the testing
firm. Also, we always encourage and state in all load data to
use safe reloading proceedures and start a minimum 10%
below charge weights. All of the loads tested/listed are
allways run through three seperate ballistic modeling
programs for the highest safety factor available.
As to the chamber design that has been addressed in previous posts,
and all barrels ordered through us are cut to the same length etc.
Both the original chamber (which was throated short by the reamer
company) and the VLD chamber are the same with the exception of
the VLD chamber having a longer throat, thats It.
As to the the pressure testing, NO INFO. WAS OR IS BEING
HELD BACK IN ANY FORM. As was stated earlier we only
recieved very minimal Initial averages on both short throat
and long throat chambers, that's It. The testing facility is still
working on the pressure testing...
A new reamer is being ordered with the VLD throat only and will
be sent the the barrel manufacturer...until then we will do all
the extras at the shop...
Hope this helps clear things up for those that were not sure of the
situation etc.
Well we have to put that in context, condsidering the 6.5mm PCC
round only has a nominal ~30gr. case capacity vs. other rifles w/
36gr. to 60+gr. case capacities...Sure the little 6.5mm PCC round
can reach 1000 yards with the right loads and marksman, but It
needs a bit of work to achieve It.
All things considered it does quite well within it's design parameters,
excellent overall accuracy, decent velocity, low recoil, low cost
to reload, etc.
Dr69,
I so love these conversations we have. Some day we will have to end up in the same town so we can sit down and share a meal and have these conversations in person. I would very much enjoy that. heck I will even foot the bill.
as you say lets keep this in context. My daughters 5.56 Mark 12 barreled upper placed on the same lower with the same scope as the 6.5 PCC was using to obtain those groups will hold .5 MOA groups all day long and if fed the right ammo in dead air will reach into the .375 class also out to 500 yards easy. feed it 77 grain noslers over 24 grains of varget and it will keep them under 7 inch at a 1000 yards on a calm day.
it is not that uncommon to see ARs hitting in the .5 MOA class range. my AR uses a bipod in the front, a mono pod that comes out of the rear end of the stock, and gold trigger set to just shy of 2 lb release with .064 inch of travel. add to that a 6-24 X 50 HS LR vortex and recoil that is so light you do not have to hold the gun at all just put your shoulder so your shirt touches the stock and shots are very very easy to make consistently off a bench.
heck the Clark gator is Guaranteed to group .5 MOA when you buy it. http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/gatorar.htm
so why as you say "put it in context" would someone buy a wildcat barrel, and wildcat dies, and try to work up their own loads since there is no factory verified load data in existences just to do what the 5.56 already does a "round only has a nominal ~30gr. case capacity vs. other rifles w/36gr. to 60+gr. case capacities" that "can reach 1000 yards with the right loads and marksman"
where this round is going to have to shine is in the 300 to 500 yard range, if not then the 300 blackout is going to over shadow this round and you will fade into the same world as the 6.5 MPC, and 6.5 whisper, over shadowed by the 300 whisper and 300 blackout. those that want a 500 to 1000 yard gun will head to the 6.5 grendel and 6.5 creedmoor. your niche is going to be the person that wants to kill dear sized game and down out too just under 500 yards where the 300 blackout just does not cut it and the 6.5's SD really shines between the two calibers.
Sorry guys I have been in Hospital for the last several days...did not
get a chance to resond to some of the posts here...
Puravida, It may have come off a bit harsh on my return fire but
that poster has a history with me and other wildcaters and shooters
and he loves to critique unfairly and make unwarranted attacks etc.
Most sane people will not take that lying down.
Even the hottest loads that were tested in both short and long
throated chambers both were considered safe by the testing
firm. Also, we always encourage and state in all load data to
use safe reloading proceedures and start a minimum 10%
below charge weights. All of the loads tested/listed are
allways run through three seperate ballistic modeling
programs for the highest safety factor available.
As to the chamber design that has been addressed in previous posts,
and all barrels ordered through us are cut to the same length etc.
Both the original chamber (which was throated short by the reamer
company) and the VLD chamber are the same with the exception of
the VLD chamber having a longer throat, thats It.
As to the the pressure testing, NO INFO. WAS OR IS BEING
HELD BACK IN ANY FORM. As was stated earlier we only
recieved very minimal Initial averages on both short throat
and long throat chambers, that's It. The testing facility is still
working on the pressure testing...
A new reamer is being ordered with the VLD throat only and will
be sent the the barrel manufacturer...until then we will do all
the extras at the shop...
Hope this helps clear things up for those that were not sure of the
situation etc.
hope the hospital stay was not for anything serious.
in the spirit of "NO INFO. WAS OR IS BEING HELD BACK IN ANY FORM" who is doing the testing?
Dr69,
I so love these conversations we have. Some day we will have to end up in the same town so we can sit down and share a meal and have these conversations in person. I would very much enjoy that. heck I will even foot the bill.
as you say lets keep this in context. My daughters 5.56 Mark 12 barreled upper placed on the same lower with the same scope as the 6.5 PCC was using to obtain those groups will hold .5 MOA groups all day long and if fed the right ammo in dead air will reach into the .375 class also out to 500 yards easy. feed it 77 grain noslers over 24 grains of varget and it will keep them under 7 inch at a 1000 yards on a calm day.
it is not that uncommon to see ARs hitting in the .5 MOA class range. my AR uses a bipod in the front, a mono pod that comes out of the rear end of the stock, and gold trigger set to just shy of 2 lb release with .064 inch of travel. add to that a 6-24 X 50 HS LR vortex and recoil that is so light you do not have to hold the gun at all just put your shoulder so your shirt touches the stock and shots are very very easy to make consistently off a bench.
heck the Clark gator is Guaranteed to group .5 MOA when you buy it. http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/gatorar.htm
so why as you say "put it in context" would someone buy a wildcat barrel, and wildcat dies, and try to work up their own loads since there is no factory verified load data in existences just to do what the 5.56 already does a "round only has a nominal ~30gr. case capacity vs. other rifles w/36gr. to 60+gr. case capacities" that "can reach 1000 yards with the right loads and marksman"
where this round is going to have to shine is in the 300 to 500 yard range, if not then the 300 blackout is going to over shadow this round and you will fade into the same world as the 6.5 MPC, and 6.5 whisper, over shadowed by the 300 whisper and 300 blackout. those that want a 500 to 1000 yard gun will head to the 6.5 grendel and 6.5 creedmoor. your niche is going to be the person that wants to kill dear sized game and down out too just under 500 yards where the 300 blackout just does not cut it and the 6.5's SD really shines between the two calibers.
Points well taken...Like I said with the correct loads and a good
marksman behind the trigger the 6.5mm PCC round can reach
that magical 1000 yard mark thanks to the great BC and SD of
6.5 caliber pills.
The 5.56 with the 77gr. pills can also make the 1K yard mark,
although, it is a bit tougher since it has a lower BC & SD vs. the
6.5mm caliber overall...
The 6.5mm Whisper & MPC (I have one) have not succeeded
for a couple of reasons (IMHO), A) The developer although
well known has about zero customer service skills & a terrible
attitude. B) Stated velocities on the website don't even come
close to actual velocities unless you run It at 70K PSI or more,
the weak load data sheet that is sent with the upper is very
limited and potentually unsafe (all my ballistic modeling pro-
grams show overpressure (well past 62K PSI). C) Low case
capacity, maxes out to ~27grs.
The 6.5 Whisper is mostly designed for subsonic use(s) w/
heavy loads, etc.
The .300 Whisper/.300 BO is in a niche area of suppressed and
subsonic uses mostly...that's where it does well...less so in a
hunting/target field for longer ranges (IMHO).
The difference with the 6.5mm PCC rounds vs. the 6.5 Whisper
and 6.5 MPC is: super customer service, attention to detail, actual
field results from Independant end users, free lifetime load
data support, barrels that can be custom contoured at no
extra charge, all post barrel manufacture work done in
house, maximum fireformed case capacities at ~ 32grs.
and the list goes on.
Would always like to meet high quality people that share the love
of hunting/shooting/competition etc. and may have a meal w/
them to boot.
hope the hospital stay was not for anything serious.
in the spirit of "NO INFO. WAS OR IS BEING HELD BACK IN ANY FORM" who is doing the testing?
Well I hate hospitals for one, but will be OK for the most part, thanks.
I was never hospitalized before and I never had to stay more than
a couple of hours, so it was something new for me and not a pleasent
experience BTW.
As to the pressure testing and such, as I mentioned in a earlier post
the only reason I don't want to mention the testing lab/firm yet
is that the testing is not yet complete, and I believe It would be unfair
to list the lab/firm until everything is finished. The firm is well known
and specializes in ammo manufacturing. Maybe it's just me, but that's
about It.
Thanks.
Points well taken...Like I said with the correct loads and a good
marksman behind the trigger the 6.5mm PCC round can reach
that magical 1000 yard mark thanks to the great BC and SD of
6.5 caliber pills.
The 5.56 with the 77gr. pills can also make the 1K yard mark,
although, it is a bit tougher since it has a lower BC & SD vs. the
6.5mm caliber overall...
Dr69,
Okay come on please quit doing that. You are an engineer do your homework before making another false statement.
please see the following link
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=ec962c86
a 140 grain 6.5 bullet with a BC of 0.585 (hornady AMAX) comes out of your 6.5 PCC at 2200 as per your own webpage numbers. it drops 505 inches at 1000 yards with a wind drift (10 MPH wind) of 101.31 inches and a time of flight of 1.94 seconds.
a 77 grain 5.56 match king with a BC of 0.362 (sierra) comes out at 2900 fps (ramshot load data) my 18 inch barrel lets them go at 2925 +\- 15. it will drop 403.9 at 1000 yards with a wind drift (10 MPH wind) of 133.77 and a time of flight of 1.79 seconds.
that is 101.4 less inches of drop for the 5.56 then the 6.5 PCC wind will cause it more trouble with 32+ inches more push. but how can you say it will have a harder time getting there?
heck it keeps up with my 6.5 LBC/grendel out to 700 yards before losing the battle to the higher BC numbers of the 6.5 cal.
in comparison your 6.5 PCC loses the race to my 6.5 LBC/grendel at 300 yards barely 100 yards past the 200 yard zero mark.
put the PCC up against an 80 or 90 grain 5.56 and it drops out of the race even faster, the reason I did not use one of them is they will no longer fit in the mag so you have to load them one at a time.
again your niche is the 300 to 500 yard medium/small game hunter, you do not really offer much over the 50 year old 5.56 when it comes to the 0 to 1000 yard target shooter/varmint hunter. sorry but it is just not there.
again it would be so much fun to sit down with you with a laptop, a good meal and a couple of hours to burn.
again I hope the hospital stay was not anything serous.
P.S. I am sorry you interaction with JD was so bad, back in the day (25 years ago) when I was lost in handgun hunting and silhouette shooting. JD Jones was the go to guy, if you needed something to do with a contender and one of his wildcat rounds he was always a blast to talk to over the phone, and you better have two hours or more because he would keep you on the phone forever. one great guy with a lot of knowledge and a true love for the sport and the hunt. and his barrels and work were second to nobody. and if you did not like something he payed for you to ship it back so he could make it right. I guess when you have been at it as long as he has the love fades after awhile. heck how old is he now days, he has to be in his 80's can you imagine doing what you loved for over 60 years, and still talking to people everyday... wow my hat is off to that man. I am sure reading your interaction with him caused a tear in more then one pistol hunters heart,the lose of a legend....
recon562001
04-09-13, 22:21
I have been wanting a 6.5mm round that would work in a AR system with standard mags! I love the 6.5 in bolt guns I have a 6.5 Grendel and .260 Remington right now. I just wish I read this thread before I started to build my 300BLK. I guess I have a new upper project for down the road. I'm thinking a 18"-20" barreled SPR.
I have been wanting a 6.5mm round that would work in a AR system with standard mags! I love the 6.5 in bolt guns I have a 6.5 Grendel and .260 Remington right now. I just wish I read this thread before I started to build my 300BLK. I guess I have a new upper project for down the road. I'm thinking a 18"-20" barreled SPR.
if you already have a 6.5 grendel with dies and all the reloading stuff why not just get a 6.5 Grendel barrel from black hole weaponry and slap it on your upper. they are listed under 6.5 LBC http://www.blackholeweaponry.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=23&osCsid=c96198d66e428807d77af31d58a150bd and will work with your 6.5 Grendel loaded ammo, brass and dies. and they load in a standard length AR mag with Grendel lips and follower. and unlike 5.56/223 mags they are available in stock now at http://www.44mag.com/product/6_5_grendel_15_magazine_asc/6_5_grendel_ar15_magazines
recon562001
04-09-13, 23:18
if you already have a 6.5 grendel with dies and all the reloading stuff why not just get a 6.5 Grendel barrel from black hole weaponry and slap it on your upper. they are listed under 6.5 LBC http://www.blackholeweaponry.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=23&osCsid=c96198d66e428807d77af31d58a150bd and will work with your 6.5 Grendel loaded ammo, brass and dies. and they load in a standard length AR mag with Grendel lips and follower. and unlike 5.56/223 mags they are available in stock now at http://www.44mag.com/product/6_5_grendel_15_magazine_asc/6_5_grendel_ar15_magazines
Because I already own quite a few standard 5.56 mags so why buy Grendel mags that I can not use with my other uppers? Second like with the 300BLK all this requires is a barrel change so you don't have to deal with case taper problems and a different bot face like with the Grendel. Also 6.5 Grendel brass and ammo is ALWAYS hard to get your hands on unlike 5.56 that is much more common.
Dont get me wrong I like the Grendel but I got it in a bolt gun and not a AR for a reason.
EDIT: I just looked at the link for the Grendel mag. You gotta be high $39.99 for a 15 round mag! Not a chance in hell I'd move away from standard 5.56 mags.
Because I already own quite a few standard 5.56 mags so why buy Grendel mags that I can not use with my other uppers? Second like with the 300BLK all this requires is a barrel change so you don't have to deal with case taper problems and a different bot face like with the Grendel. Also 6.5 Grendel brass and ammo is ALWAYS hard to get your hands on unlike 5.56 that is much more common.
Dont get me wrong I like the Grendel but I got it in a bolt gun and not a AR for a reason.
EDIT: I just looked at the link for the Grendel mag. You gotta be high $39.99 for a 15 round mag! Not a chance in hell I'd move away from standard 5.56 mags.
good points, if you already have the 5.56 mags, brass, bolts and uppers then all you need is the dies and barrel. this is a good change up for you, and would be a good move for you.
the brass for the grendel is easy to get all you have to do is call up LBC and order some, it is $65 for 100 or midway at $35 for 50 http://www.midwayusa.com/product/250049/hornady-reloading-brass-65-grendel-box-of-50 in stock now, just fyi for your bolt gun. when no one else has it LBC always does.
have you looked at AR mags in stock lately? if you want to see the price before the gun scare jack up mags to $40 for a 25 round 6.5 Grendel mag then look here http://www.midwayusa.com/product/794721/ar-stoner-magazine-ar-15-65-grendel-25-round-with-anti-tilt-follower-stainless-steel-black $16 when they are back in stock. just like the $17 Pmags going for $99 last month (look on this forum last month or so that was my complaint when I went to buy one at cheaper then dirt and the local store for my 5.56) all mags have gone up for now.
the 30 round Pmag in stock at cheaper then dirt is down to $49.97 http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/MAG-074 the 20 is also $49.97 now. yes the same ones that sold for $17 last year.
you should get a 6.5 PCC it would be a great little round for your AR build. it is a fun round.
recon562001
04-10-13, 00:23
Thanks for the heads up on the brass, I got a bunch when I got the rifle and it has been good for me so far but I'll need more soon. It's my girlfriend's favorite rifle to shoot, I am pretty sure she is going to make it her baby and not let me use it any more haha.
I know about all the price gouging and every thing being out of stock but I have more 30 round 5.56 mags then the normal person has a need for so it dose not really bother me as of right now. However I would like to get a couple of 20 rounders once every thing mellows out.
Like I said I will probably build a upper for this down the road but I'm almost finished with a complete 300 BLK gun (its out for cerakote now) so it's going to be at least a few months before I get around to it.
It looks like a fun round that will fit what I want nicely.
ChefDementia
04-24-13, 22:05
After reading through this thread, I'm in, where do I sign up? A stripped upper is hitting my house next week, and I don't know what it's going to be, yet. I've been reloading my own rounds, so this caught my attention.
bigjohnson
04-25-13, 08:28
After reading through this thread, I'm in, where do I sign up? A stripped upper is hitting my house next week, and I don't know what it's going to be, yet. I've been reloading my own rounds, so this caught my attention.
WHY!!!! I to have read this entire thread. There are to many unanswered questions. :neo:
After reading through this thread, I'm in, where do I sign up? A stripped upper is hitting my house next week, and I don't know what it's going to be, yet. I've been reloading my own rounds, so this caught my attention.
ChefD,
Thank you brother, welcome aboard, PM sent to you with Info.
Thanks Again.
the brass for the grendel is easy to get all you have to do is call up LBC and order some, it is $65 for 100 or midway at $35 for 50 http://www.midwayusa.com/product/250049/hornady-reloading-brass-65-grendel-box-of-50 in stock now, just fyi for your bolt gun. when no one else has it LBC always does.
Another plus for the grendel is you can use 7.62x39 brass if proper Grendel brass is hard to find. I'm still shooting a bunch of IMI brass bought back in 2008. Not quite the number of reloads as the better Lapua brass, but kept me shooting through two separate ammo/brass shortages.
Not worth doing if Grendel brass with small primer pockets are available though as there is a very small reduction in case capacity due to the thicker brass.
It's also hard to find a Grendel load that shoots badly. Some rifles are picky, but the AA throats work well with many bullets & loadings. But I've largely standardized on the 123g AMAX, and occasionally the blem Nosler 120g boattails when they are cheap. (Have bought them recently as cheap as .17 each)
Hello Guys, sorry I have not been able to post lately...I have been
very busy of late with many things and w/ family and some health
Issues etc.
Well anyway, here is a update on a very recent hunt with a 6.5mm
PCC end user Joe, he was thrilled with this single shot (DRT) to end
this wild hogs career w/ a 100gr. Barnes TTSX on his Texas hunt...He
asked me for a appropriate load recipe, and he made it deliver !
The approx. velocity was in the ~2,500 + fps vicinity. Distance
was approx. 70-80 Yards, weight of the hog was approx. 85 lbs.
http://i818.photobucket.com/albums/zz101/Pakman72/piggy_zpsd1f90e0c.jpg
Thanks Joe for the update...Hope you get a Monster next time.
hockeynick39
05-09-13, 20:24
Had a little range time today and tested some Hornady 123 gr SSTs with tips and without tips. I will say that for hunting purposes the SSTs without the tips may be the way to go (even though the tips are supposed to facilitate the expansion). Also there is an almost 200 fps gain without the tips due to the increased case capacity when the bullet is able to be seated further out. Will post targets, chronograph data, and load data used tomorrow.
Had a little range time today and tested some Hornady 123 gr SSTs with tips and without tips. I will say that for hunting purposes the SSTs without the tips may be the way to go (even though the tips are supposed to facilitate the expansion). Also there is an almost 200 fps gain without the tips due to the increased case capacity when the bullet is able to be seated further out. Will post targets, chronograph data, and load data used tomorrow.
Nick thanks for your update, we will be eagerly waiting for your
full update on your field testing with the 123 gr. SST's.
hockeynick39
05-12-13, 13:28
I'm a day or so late in posting this, but have been busy with my Ruger #1H in .405 Winchester. Here is the data and targets for the most accurate loads, as well as the chronograph data for the standard 123 gr SSTs and the clipped tip SSTs:
Chronograph data:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/123grSSTChronydata001_zps937e8cd8.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/123grSSTChronydata001_zps937e8cd8.jpg.html)
QL data clipped tip and H322:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/QLDataH322andclipped123grSST001_zpsf4e0426d.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/QLDataH322andclipped123grSST001_zpsf4e0426d.jpg.html)
Target clipped tip and H322:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/TargetH322andclippedSST001_zpsfc8b8c35.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/TargetH322andclippedSST001_zpsfc8b8c35.jpg.html)
QL data clipped tip and H335:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/QLDataH335andclipped123grSST001_zps5e44567b.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/QLDataH335andclipped123grSST001_zps5e44567b.jpg.html)
Target clipped tip and H335:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/TargetH335andclippedSST001_zps28688e1a.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/TargetH335andclippedSST001_zps28688e1a.jpg.html)
QL data SST and H335:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/QLdataH335and123grSST001_zpsd55f8f71.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/QLdataH335and123grSST001_zpsd55f8f71.jpg.html)
Target SST and H335:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/123grSSTandH335001_zps41ead1fb.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/123grSSTandH335001_zps41ead1fb.jpg.html)
QL data SST and H322:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/QLdataH322and123grSST001_zpscdccaa77.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/QLdataH322and123grSST001_zpscdccaa77.jpg.html)
Target SST and H322:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/123grSSTandH322001_zps5864b3cc.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/123grSSTandH322001_zps5864b3cc.jpg.html)
The clipped tips open up a little bit, but are still plenty good for short range hunting applications and if I get the opporunity to do so over the next few years, I will attempt to take a pig or white tail with one. Also, this data utilizes the old assumed pressure of 55,114 PSI before the confirmation of the pressure testing by a qualified lab that increased it to 62,000 PSI. The next testing is going to be conducted with the 123 gr AMAX in much the same manner as the SSTs, however, I will be utilizing the new pressure.
I'm a day or so late in posting this, but have been busy with my Ruger #1H in .405 Winchester. Here is the data and targets for the most accurate loads, as well as the chronograph data for the standard 123 gr SSTs and the clipped tip SSTs:
Chronograph data:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/123grSSTChronydata001_zps937e8cd8.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/123grSSTChronydata001_zps937e8cd8.jpg.html)
QL data clipped tip and H322:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/QLDataH322andclipped123grSST001_zpsf4e0426d.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/QLDataH322andclipped123grSST001_zpsf4e0426d.jpg.html)
Target clipped tip and H322:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/TargetH322andclippedSST001_zpsfc8b8c35.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/TargetH322andclippedSST001_zpsfc8b8c35.jpg.html)
QL data clipped tip and H335:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/QLDataH335andclipped123grSST001_zps5e44567b.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/QLDataH335andclipped123grSST001_zps5e44567b.jpg.html)
Target clipped tip and H335:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/TargetH335andclippedSST001_zps28688e1a.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/TargetH335andclippedSST001_zps28688e1a.jpg.html)
QL data SST and H335:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/QLdataH335and123grSST001_zpsd55f8f71.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/QLdataH335and123grSST001_zpsd55f8f71.jpg.html)
Target SST and H335:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/123grSSTandH335001_zps41ead1fb.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/123grSSTandH335001_zps41ead1fb.jpg.html)
QL data SST and H322:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/QLdataH322and123grSST001_zpscdccaa77.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/QLdataH322and123grSST001_zpscdccaa77.jpg.html)
Target SST and H322:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/123grSSTandH322001_zps5864b3cc.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/123grSSTandH322001_zps5864b3cc.jpg.html)
The clipped tips open up a little bit, but are still plenty good for short range hunting applications and if I get the opporunity to do so over the next few years, I will attempt to take a pig or white tail with one. Also, this data utilizes the old assumed pressure of 55,114 PSI before the confirmation of the pressure testing by a qualified lab that increased it to 62,000 PSI. The next testing is going to be conducted with the 123 gr AMAX in much the same manner as the SSTs, however, I will be utilizing the new pressure.
Nick thanks again for you excellent load and field work. Accuracy is
still excellent out to ~ 300 Meters with those loads...No doubt the
fire formed loads will do even better...
bigjohnson
05-12-13, 18:04
[QUOTE=Dr69er;1641330]Nick thanks again for you excellent load and field work. Accuracy is
still excellent out to ~ 300 Meters with those loads...No doubt the
fire formed loads will do even better...[/QUOTE
hockeynick39
05-12-13, 19:45
What lab certified this to 62,000 PSI ? You have posted several times that an independent lab is pressure testing and working up loads. The last time was on 3/20. You also said they were testing some sub-sonic loads. Where is that data? All I have seen is some half assed data from Quick Load. If you can't back up the numbers with pressure data I think it would be wise to keep it to your self.
I have been watching this same dog and pony show for the last couple of years. There has always been questions asked and the only feedback we get is the same smoke and mirror bullshit.
My vote is put up or shut up. Post your pressure numbers and who tested it or stop wasting every one else time. If this cartridge has real merit lets see it.
Here's my vote for you. Shut up. You dont have to read it, if you don't want to, it is your choice. How about YOU post your numbers, there Mr. Johnson. If all you want to do is stir the BS, then don't even bother posting.
What lab certified this to 62,000 PSI ? You have posted several times that an independent lab is pressure testing and working up loads. The last time was on 3/20. You also said they were testing some sub-sonic loads. Where is that data? All I have seen is some half assed data from Quick Load. If you can't back up the numbers with pressure data I think it would be wise to keep it to your self.
I have been watching this same dog and pony show for the last couple of years. There has always been questions asked and the only feedback we get is the same smoke and mirror bullshit.
My vote is put up or shut up. Post your pressure numbers and who tested it or stop wasting every one else time. If this cartridge has real merit lets see it.
Thanks for the vote of confidence bigjohnson, I guess if
the Independent field testers/end users have not convinced
you with all the posted load data, velocity results, targets,
and the many game taken with pictures and such...well, then
there is not much I can do for you.
The pressure testing is being done by ***************** via
*** partnership and they have only released Initial data to me
via phone conversation by the owner...I did not want to release
anything until all data has been completed/submitted etc.
My many thanks to all my dedicated and loyal customers/end
users/field testers who have help make the 6.5mm PCC wildcat
a success.
As always, I caution reloaders to use common sense when working
up loads to start low and check for signs of pressure etc.
I use three professional ballistic computer modeling programs to
help determine safe start loads for the 6.5mm PCC cartridge...on
top of actual field results etc.
Yes, it can take a couple of years to safely develop a new wildcat,
all btw with my own funds and supporting a family, holding down a
full time job, and living in one of the most expensive metro area's
in the world, etc.
Thanks.
bigjohnson
05-12-13, 21:21
Here's my vote for you. Shut up. You dont have to read it, if you don't want to, it is your choice. How about YOU post your numbers, there Mr. Johnson. If all you want to do is stir the BS, then don't even bother posting.
000000000000
bigjohnson
05-12-13, 21:37
Thanks for the vote of confidence bigjohnson, I guess if
the Independent field testers/end users have not convinced
you with all the posted load data, velocity results, targets,
and the many game taken with pictures and such...well, then
there is not much I can do for you.
The pressure testing is being done by
partnership and they have only released Initial data to me
via phone conversation by the owner...I did not want to release
anything until all data has been completed/submitted etc.
My many thanks to all my dedicated and loyal customers/end
users/field testers who have help make the 6.5mm PCC wildcat
a success.
As always, I caution reloaders to use common sense when working
up loads to start low and check for signs of pressure etc.
I use three professional ballistic computer modeling programs to
help determine safe start loads for the 6.5mm PCC cartridge...on
top of actual field results etc.
Yes, it can take a couple of years to safely develop a new wildcat,
all btw with my own funds and supporting a family, holding down a
full time job, and living in one of the most expensive metro area's
in the world, etc.
Thanks.
00000000000
Ok now we are getting some where. Why didn't you just post Tactical Amunition and Black Hole when you were asked? I will contact them for some pressure data. Are they doing the Subsonic load development you spoke of?
It really makes no difference if you have a family, where you live or who's money you are using. All that matters at the end of the day is the answers you give your customers.
By the way I am an end user
OK then, why don't you reveal who you are then ?
If you have all this beef with the 6.5mm PCC wildcat/
developer/end users then why did you purchase a
barrel/kit?
If you had a problem at some point why have you
not contacted us (even if you did not purchase
though us, although we can not guarantee top
performance when purchased elsewhere...we
are still here to help.) ?
There is never a need to bash us or other end users
on this forum or any other for that matter...
By the way I have answered all honest/serious/legit/
sane questions on this and other forums, to suggest
otherwise would be dishonest and rude.
We are here to help each other out, offer opinions,
suggestions and experience's with this and other similar
AR wildcats...
Like Nick said earlier, please don't come here to make
rude statements against other end users/field testers
who happen to be experienced: Reloaders, Hunters,
Law Enforcement Pro's, Engineers, and Gunsmiths...
cause you get some of your own medicine.
The people who have purchased from us thus far are
are very happy with the round and it's performance,
and they have been some of the nicest people to deal
with to boot...
Thanks.
I think this is just an instance of someone with nothing better to do than troll. Four posts all about his "unanswered questions," only two of which have been asked (pressure and subsonic load development).
hockeynick39
05-13-13, 10:59
Report on bigjohnson sent doc.
hockeynick39
05-16-13, 20:01
Black Hole Weaponry does not support the published data for the 6.5 PCC.
Don't believe that anyone asked. Or is that some initial legal hands off stuff. Seriously though, Greg, what is your malfunction with this cartridge. No BS, want the real problem you have with all of this.
Why do people find it necessary to take a dump on this thread?
hockeynick39
05-17-13, 05:09
If you have any questions regrading these postings please contact Andy at BHW.
Greg
Still does not answer the question. My next question is: Are you the PIO/ PAO for BHW and are you legally bound to represent them. Just by saying that it was at the request of someone says otherwise. So, like I asked earlier, Greg, what is YOUR problem with this cartrdige and everything with it?
hockeynick39
05-17-13, 10:58
Please see above.
Still doesn't answer the question Greg. I don't want to talk to "Andy". He hasn't said anything. I just want the truth because you have done nothing but badger this cartridge across 4 other forums and would like you to come clean. This has nothing to do with BHW other than the fact that they make the barrels for this cartridge and have done some testing of the cartridge. It has nothing to do with the simple fact that there is something completely bothering you about this. If you have nothing further to contribute to this thread, please quit trying to harrass or down grade it. Thank you.
I just took the time to read through this thread. I'm amazed it hasn't been shitcanned - this is not the type of thing we do here.
to the developer, I understand the challenges of working up a wildcat. and I all too well understand the childishness of detractors. why this small slice of human interest attracts such a large percentage of bitter people, I have no idea but it is enough that it made me back away from this crowd years ago.
good luck to you sir. I hope you have good luck in your efforts and I'm sorry you've had to put up with this at this site...
[QUOTE=ra2bach;1647162]
XXXXX
OK fellas, I have spoken with the Owner of BHW and have come to agreement with any misunderstanding that have arisen as a result of some recent posts...
As I have stated several times here and one other forums I have had and will continue to have a great relationship with the owner of BHW, we have resolved
any Issues and we will continue to have our 6.5mm PCC barrels made by BHW and the great quality of product they have produced.
So we encourage all those who are Interested in all the great products that BHW produces and the wonderful customer service they are
willing to provide to give them a call or visit. This of course Includes our popular 6.5mm PCC AR-15 wildcat cartridge chambering that is
being produced by BHW.
We will also continue to provide excellent real world field data results on paper and on wild game by our field testers, and 6.5mm PCC end users and provide any
Info we can on the great products BHW produces Including the 6.5mm PCC wildcat AR-15 barrels.
Thanks to all for understanding, and any and all misunderstandings have been resolved by all parties, so consider this to be a return to a excellent relationship
with BHW and their staff.
Thanks Again.
Damn I go to Africa for a month and all hell breaks loose here... what did I miss?
lots of xxx-ed out posts.
Nick, from the size of some of those groups it looks like 335 maybe the sweet spot of the PCC. they almost look like my Grendel groups (meant as friendly banter buddy). I will have to try some of the loads out before they ship me back. I have limited access to the PCC right now (shooting partner still stuck in Afghan) but if he gets back in time we will have to play.
while I was over there I saw a guy shooting a Grendel, he had a Russian made 115 grain solid copper pre-cut peddled hollow point with a cannelure. my first thought was Nick would have a blast with these, perfect weight, short since they did not have a plastic tip sticking out, accurate as any round I have seen out of the Grendel, and deep devastating expansion. I would have loved to come home with a couple thousand of those, I would have shipped you a couple hundred. he says they also make it in a 135 grain.
Another plus for the grendel is you can use 7.62x39 brass if proper Grendel brass is hard to find. I'm still shooting a bunch of IMI brass bought back in 2008. Not quite the number of reloads as the better Lapua brass, but kept me shooting through two separate ammo/brass shortages.
Not worth doing if Grendel brass with small primer pockets are available though as there is a very small reduction in case capacity due to the thicker brass.
It's also hard to find a Grendel load that shoots badly. Some rifles are picky, but the AA throats work well with many bullets & loadings. But I've largely standardized on the 123g AMAX, and occasionally the blem Nosler 120g boattails when they are cheap. (Have bought them recently as cheap as .17 each)
Thanks for the information, I have always wondered just how hard it was to form Grendel from 7.62x39 brass. can you use the standard die set for the Grendel or do you need forming dies?
with small primers a pain to get right now and large primers easy to find it would be nice to have some Grendel brass that uses large primers.
hockeynick39
06-22-13, 15:04
Finally made it to the range today with the 123 gr AMax loads and powder charges boosted to meet the 62,000 PSI now rated for this round. It is not much of a change between 55,114 to 62,000, but enough to notice a little crisper report when fired. I also don't think that I have fully realised the potential for this round either and with a little more tinkering, should be able to produce a highly accurate round with an acceptable rate of velocity for a modern cartridge (something over 2200 fps). The original data that I drafted using the QuickLoad software had a H2O capacity of 33.5 gr., but I was a little reluctant to use it because of how compressed the H322 was during loading, so I backed it down to 33 gr of H2O capacity. I believe that when I am done with this next string of testing, I will go back to the 33.5 gr capacity for my own interest. However, on with the QL data, chronograph data, and targets:
H335 QL data:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/H335QLdata001_zps323fa5c9.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/H335QLdata001_zps323fa5c9.jpg.html)
H335, most accurate load:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/H335Target001_zpsd5a2dd1b.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/H335Target001_zpsd5a2dd1b.jpg.html)
H335 chronograph data:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/123AMAXampH335001_zpsc2e7afcd.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/123AMAXampH335001_zpsc2e7afcd.jpg.html)
H322 QL data:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/H322QLdata001_zps287e4938.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/H322QLdata001_zps287e4938.jpg.html)
H322 most accurate load:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/H322target001_zps7adce170.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/H322target001_zps7adce170.jpg.html)
H322 chronograph data:
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/123AMAXampH322001_zps13ccdbc3.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/123AMAXampH322001_zps13ccdbc3.jpg.html)
Nice work Nick, thanks for your update...nice tight groups.
hockeynick39
07-14-13, 08:14
Went to the range yesterday and met with some excellent results. I had a feeling my last tests with the 123 gr SST were a little on the anemic side and I was not disappointed. I pushed the H20 grains to 33.5, which is the average case capacity of the Winchester/ IMI cartridges I am using. I also pushed the PSI out to 62,000, the current standard, instead of the original 55,114 PSI. I did have some minor pressure signs with the highest powder charge, however, it only pushed the pressure ring out by .001". This is not overly significant, but it does tell me that we are on the ragged edge of going over and causing problems. I also believe that this data would be good for a standard gas operated system and not an op-rod, gas operated system (primarily for fear of bending the op-rod in stressful situations or over powered cartridges). I also found that the accuracy was dependent on pulling the polymer tips, creating a large HP, vs. actually clipping the tips and having a large bearing surface or meplat.
The QL data:
H322-
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/AMAXH322001_zps4b1ff822.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/AMAXH322001_zps4b1ff822.jpg.html)
H335-
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/A-MAXH335001_zpsbf0c052a.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/A-MAXH335001_zpsbf0c052a.jpg.html)
The Chronograph Data (I did highlight the accuracy data, H322-25.1 gr. and the H335-26.1 gr.):
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/AMAXChronoData001_zps2a091e40.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/AMAXChronoData001_zps2a091e40.jpg.html)
The Targets:
H322-
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/AMAXH322Target001_zpsfa85e799.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/AMAXH322Target001_zpsfa85e799.jpg.html)
H335-
http://i1027.photobucket.com/albums/y338/hockeynick39/AMAXH335Target001_zpsdf704028.jpg (http://s1027.photobucket.com/user/hockeynick39/media/AMAXH335Target001_zpsdf704028.jpg.html)
As you can see, I actually was able to get this combination over 2500 fps, but the accuracy of it is actually between 2400-2450 fps, which is still nothing to sneeze at with the case capacity and bullet weight as well as the 18" barrel used for the testing. Since this test went so well, I will be revisiting the 123 gr SST with pulled tips and increased case capacity and PSI.
Fantastic results with your barrel and hand loads Nick, more great
work on your part...Thanks for the update.
Pretty Impressive considering the COL, case capacity, and barrel
limitations ... 2,450 + fps is quite a feat out of a 18" tube w/ the
123gr. VLD's.
PathfilmsNZ
09-16-13, 04:58
What do you think it would perform like from a 12.5"??
BoringGuy45
09-16-13, 21:30
Fantastic results with your barrel and hand loads Nick, more great
work on your part...Thanks for the update.
Pretty Impressive considering the COL, case capacity, and barrel
limitations ... 2,450 + fps is quite a feat out of a 18" tube w/ the
123gr. VLD's.
Agreed. I'd like to see this cartridge become mainstream. It really sounds like it has potential. I would think with a bullet weight of 115gr or so, you could probably get 2250-2300 fps out of a 12.5" barrel.
PathfilmsNZ
09-21-13, 21:58
Call me when I can get factory brass and barrels, I guess.
Call me when I can get factory brass and barrels, I guess.
Sorry for the delayed response, the velocity figures from a 12.5" Bbl.
would depend on a few different factors like bullet weight, BC, COL,
etc...but on average you loose about 35fps to 50fps per Inch of Bbl.
length (but sometimes less) from a 22"/24" Bbl. length and working
your way down to shorter lengths.
So a 85 grain projectile from a 6.5mm PCC round w/ a 22" Bbl. length
will max out at around ~ 3,054 fps, the same load in a 12.5" Bbl.
length will loose about 380 fps.
Thanks Guys.
walker2713
09-24-13, 15:57
Thanks for all your work, the post and pictures. The 6.5 bullet has a lot going for it in terms of ballistic potential and available bullets from a wide variety of manufacturers.....
Thanks for all your work, the post and pictures. The 6.5 bullet has a lot going for it in terms of ballistic potential and available bullets from a wide variety of manufacturers.....
Thanks for your support, I have always wondered why the
6.5mm/.264 caliber was not more popular here stateside...
Although it is quite popular in Europe and other parts of the
world.
But thankfully that has been changing here stateside with the
advent of the 6.5 Grendel/.264 LBC, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 WSSM,
and the resurgence of the .260 Rem., 6.5-06, and .264 Win Mag.
etc. in bolt actions and in the AR-308 and AR-10 platforms.
Thanks Again.
Nick, Dr69,
I have a weird one for you. we took a 123 Amax and loaded it on top of 26 grains of cfe223, put a heavy crimp on them, set Col at 2.26 inch. then took them out to the field. at 100 yards it printed one small ragged hole. at .340 height and .329 width outside side to outside for a five shot group. I am not sure what the velocity was (after 20 years of faithful service my Pact decided to vaporize from the blast of a 300 mag) but there were no signs of overpressure.
can you please do me a favor and run that load through your loading software and let me know if I am way off on the load.
it did not seem like we were pushing the limits by any means and at 1000 yards it gave up 20 inches of drop to the Grendel launching the same slug on top of 31.7 grains of cfe223 at 2725 fps. so I am pretty sure we are way on the safe side of pressure but it would be nice to have a good idea of how safe we are.
Nick, Dr69,
I have a weird one for you. we took a 123 Amax and loaded it on top of 26 grains of cfe223, put a heavy crimp on them, set Col at 2.26 inch. then took them out to the field. at 100 yards it printed one small ragged hole. at .340 height and .329 width outside side to outside for a five shot group. I am not sure what the velocity was (after 20 years of faithful service my Pact decided to vaporize from the blast of a 300 mag) but there were no signs of overpressure.
can you please do me a favor and run that load through your loading software and let me know if I am way off on the load.
it did not seem like we were pushing the limits by any means and at 1000 yards it gave up 20 inches of drop to the Grendel launching the same slug on top of 31.7 grains of cfe223 at 2725 fps. so I am pretty sure we are way on the safe side of pressure but it would be nice to have a good idea of how safe we are.
Hello Puravida,
That sounds quick Impressive and quite a feat of sub 1/2 MOA at 100 yards ! You might have stumbled on a awesome loading for your 6.5mm PCC barrel with the 123 A-Max load !
I did not get my updated software yet that Includes CFE223 and a few other newer powders that are now available for my ballistic software program. Once I do I will run it through the program to se what numbers it spits out.
My guess at this point is it might be running somewhere in the 2,480 fps. to 2,550 fps. range, judging mostly from the burn rate and heat range of the powder etc. CFE223 is known to be a good powder for both the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC II cases and of course the .223 Rem. case which is was designed for...I have heard/read that some reloaders are getting very good velocity and accuracy from CFE223 powder, your experience with the
6.5mm PCC round w/ the 123gr. A-Max behind CFE223 seems to add fuel to that statement.
I'm glad you have found a excellent accuracy node for your 6.5mm PCC Bbl. w/ the 123gr. A-Max, just keep an eye out for signs of
overpressure as you work up on that load. My guess would be around 28.0grs. of CFE223 powder for a FF
6.5mm PCC depending on COL and case capacity of the brand and type of cases being used.
Velocity testing the loads will always give you a better Idea on where you are with a particular load in development... But since your Chronograph has met its demise, your at a disadvantage at his point...
If I may suggest a replacement that is quality made and not too expensive, It is the C.E. ProChrono Digital...Stay safe and Good Luck.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/852429/competition-electronics-prochrono-digital-chronograph
I am pretty happy that we were able to get it shooting after all this time.
I really think nick is the one to thank on this one his advice on crimping is starting to bring this round into being a decent round.
sub 1/2 moa is not really that hard to do, the Grendel does this all day everyday with both the 123 grain Amax and the 140 grain match burners from Barnes. heck any barrel that I own that does not shoot sub 1/2 gets thrown off the local bridge or melted down for scrape iron.
CFE223 is my go to for both the Grendal and the 5.56 it has replaced Varget hands down. I think the reason it is showing so much promise is it flows through a powder measure like a dream.
if I do my part (sort the brass by weight and volume, same for the bullets) I can keep all my rounds on the 1000 yard 8 inch gong with ease. the nice thing with CFE223 is I do not have to weight out every charge to accomplish this anymore. it also gives just a little more speed then most other powders. and cleaning the barrel consists of two passes with a barrel snake.
As the old saying goes, here is the rest of the story, maybe you can help me figure this out....
The PPC seemed to like it, out to about 600 yards then things just kind of fell apart, I am not really sure why, It should be staying above the sound barrier all the way out to 1000, all I know is it was way low and way open at 1000 yards. hence the reason I was asking you or nick if you could give me an idea of what speed it was clicking along at.
at 600 it was printing about twice the size of the Grendel shooting the same 123 gainer. but at 1000 it was pretty much squeeze the trigger and pray. 20 inches below the Grendel and groups the size of a small cow. we backed it back to 100 yard targets and single ragged holes again.
you would think that both guns shooting the same 123 grain bullet out of a 24 inch BHW barrel made with the same twist rate by the same guy would behave the same. but without a chono to tell me what the speed and standard deviation between the two is it is hard to come to a conclusion.
all of my bench rest buddies are quick to jump on the case design band wagon.
1. the Grendel has the magical 30 degree shoulder and long neck. which means it gives a wonderful bullet presentation to the lands. as you know this means an even deformation by the lands on the bullet which give it a much better coaxial spin which means better stability.
2. the PCC had a heavy crimp the Grendal does not which means you do not have to deform the bullet (crimp) so the bullet has cleaner lines in fight.
3. no crimp means better release of the bullet less pressure deviation and therefor a much lower standard deviation between shots. (the chrono will answer that question).
Okay numbers 1 and 2 I have to give them. and yes that will cause the kind of loss of MOA at distance that I am seeing here. a bullet that presents a off center profile will group up close very well but the longer the distance the more unstable the bullet becomes and the more the group will open up.
Number 3, I think I would see as a vertical stringing affect so I would get a tall thin line of bullets at distance but instead I am getting a shotgun pattern.
So what I am hoping for is that the round is just going subsonic and becoming unstable. But without a chrono I can not know if this is the case.
If numbers 1 and 2 are the real cause, then as much as I hate to say it this round will be a sub 500 yard round.
Like you said a good chrono will go a long way to figuring this out.
Pact says $5 shipping and $25 labor and my old faithful can be made "like new" again. Now I just have to wait the month for the turn around.
If not I will keep on eye on the one you suggested, it is just really nice to have a print out directly from the chrono of your shooting session... I know I am spoiled...:p
Hello Puravida,
That sounds quick Impressive and quite a feat of sub 1/2 MOA at 100 yards ! You might have stumbled on a awesome loading for your 6.5mm PCC barrel with the 123 A-Max load !
I did not get my updated software yet that Includes CFE223 and a few other newer powders that are now available for my ballistic software program. Once I do I will run it through the program to se what numbers it spits out.
My guess at this point is it might be running somewhere in the 2,480 fps. to 2,550 fps. range, judging mostly from the burn rate and heat range of the powder etc. CFE223 is known to be a good powder for both the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC II cases and of course the .223 Rem. case which is was designed for...I have heard/read that some reloaders are getting very good velocity and accuracy from CFE223 powder, your experience with the
6.5mm PCC round w/ the 123gr. A-Max behind CFE223 seems to add fuel to that statement.
I'm glad you have found a excellent accuracy node for your 6.5mm PCC Bbl. w/ the 123gr. A-Max, just keep an eye out for signs of
overpressure as you work up on that load. My guess would be around 28.0grs. of CFE223 powder for a FF
6.5mm PCC depending on COL and case capacity of the brand and type of cases being used.
Velocity testing the loads will always give you a better Idea on where you are with a particular load in development... But since your Chronograph has met its demise, your at a disadvantage at his point...
If I may suggest a replacement that is quality made and not too expensive, It is the C.E. ProChrono Digital...Stay safe and Good Luck.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/852429/competition-electronics-prochrono-digital-chronograph
I am pretty happy that we were able to get it shooting after all this time.
I really think nick is the one to thank on this one his advice on crimping is starting to bring this round into being a decent round.
sub 1/2 moa is not really that hard to do, the Grendel does this all day everyday with both the 123 grain Amax and the 140 grain match burners from Barnes. heck any barrel that I own that does not shoot sub 1/2 gets thrown off the local bridge or melted down for scrape iron.
CFE223 is my go to for both the Grendal and the 5.56 it has replaced Varget hands down. I think the reason it is showing so much promise is it flows through a powder measure like a dream.
if I do my part (sort the brass by weight and volume, same for the bullets) I can keep all my rounds on the 1000 yard 8 inch gong with ease. the nice thing with CFE223 is I do not have to weight out every charge to accomplish this anymore. it also gives just a little more speed then most other powders. and cleaning the barrel consists of two passes with a barrel snake.
As the old saying goes, here is the rest of the story, maybe you can help me figure this out....
The PPC seemed to like it, out to about 600 yards then things just kind of fell apart, I am not really sure why, It should be staying above the sound barrier all the way out to 1000, all I know is it was way low and way open at 1000 yards. hence the reason I was asking you or nick if you could give me an idea of what speed it was clicking along at.
at 600 it was printing about twice the size of the Grendel shooting the same 123 gainer. but at 1000 it was pretty much squeeze the trigger and pray. 20 inches below the Grendel and groups the size of a small cow. we backed it back to 100 yard targets and single ragged holes again.
you would think that both guns shooting the same 123 grain bullet out of a 24 inch BHW barrel made with the same twist rate by the same guy would behave the same. but without a chono to tell me what the speed and standard deviation between the two is it is hard to come to a conclusion.
all of my bench rest buddies are quick to jump on the case design band wagon.
1. the Grendel has the magical 30 degree shoulder and long neck. which means it gives a wonderful bullet presentation to the lands. as you know this means an even deformation by the lands on the bullet which give it a much better coaxial spin which means better stability.
2. the PCC had a heavy crimp the Grendal does not which means you do not have to deform the bullet (crimp) so the bullet has cleaner lines in fight.
3. no crimp means better release of the bullet less pressure deviation and therefor a much lower standard deviation between shots. (the chrono will answer that question).
Okay numbers 1 and 2 I have to give them. and yes that will cause the kind of loss of MOA at distance that I am seeing here. a bullet that presents a off center profile will group up close very well but the longer the distance the more unstable the bullet becomes and the more the group will open up.
Number 3, I think I would see as a vertical stringing affect so I would get a tall thin line of bullets at distance but instead I am getting a shotgun pattern.
So what I am hoping for is that the round is just going subsonic and becoming unstable. But without a chrono I can not know if this is the case.
If numbers 1 and 2 are the real cause, then as much as I hate to say it this round will be a sub 500 yard round.
Like you said a good chrono will go a long way to figuring this out.
Pact says $5 shipping and $25 labor and my old faithful can be made "like new" again. Now I just have to wait the month for the turn around.
If not I will keep on eye on the one you suggested, it is just really nice to have a print out directly from the chrono of your shooting session... I know I am spoiled...:p
I think you pretty much answered your own questions...
A overly heavy crimp with bullet deformation will likely cause stabilization Issues especially at the longer ranges, say at around 600 yards and beyond as you have experienced and cause extra drag as the bullet is in flight...This will become more pronounced as it starts
to go subsonic at around 1,150 fps. depending on your elevation and
humidity levels.
I also suspect that the velocity is lower than predicted earlier causing a faster drop out to 600 yards and beyond as you have experienced earlier...
If its that reasonable to get your older chrono fixed then go for it. Even the CE Pro Digital comes with a printer as a option I believe...
Thanks for your Input and experience with the 6.5mm PCC round as well as the other rounds you are working on...
that is the problem, without the crimp we can not get any kind of accuracy at all.
if it is the crimp then we are stuck between a rock and a hard spot.
at the 2450 fps we would be down to 1145 fps at the 1000 yard mark for my elevation, temp and conditions at the time of shooting.
so I am hoping it is a subsonic issue, if that is the case then increasing the velocity of the bullet might help. if not then we may have just hit the limit for this rounds design characteristics.
which would be sad, I was just starting to like the little thing. :D
I think you pretty much answered your own questions...
A overly heavy crimp with bullet deformation will likely cause stabilization Issues especially at the longer ranges, say at around 600 yards and beyond as you have experienced and cause extra drag as the bullet is in flight...This will become more pronounced as it starts
to go subsonic at around 1,150 fps. depending on your elevation and
humidity levels.
I also suspect that the velocity is lower than predicted earlier causing a faster drop out to 600 yards and beyond as you have experienced earlier...
If its that reasonable to get your older chrono fixed then go for it. Even the CE Pro Digital comes with a printer as a option I believe...
Thanks for your Input and experience with the 6.5mm PCC round as well as the other rounds you are working on...
that is the problem, without the crimp we can not get any kind of accuracy at all.
if it is the crimp then we are stuck between a rock and a hard spot.
at the 2450 fps we would be down to 1145 fps at the 1000 yard mark for my elevation, temp and conditions at the time of shooting.
so I am hoping it is a subsonic issue, if that is the case then increasing the velocity of the bullet might help. if not then we may have just hit the limit for this rounds design characteristics.
which would be sad, I was just starting to like the little thing. :D
I think you are correct in that it may just be a combination of lower velocity and overly tight crimp on the projectile causing the Issues that you have mentioned earlier...
At this point I would be happy with a rifle capable sub MOA groups and accurate out to 600 yards...Although I do understand that many competition and bench-rest guys are never satisfied till they get one hole groups at range...
Hopefully, once you get your chronograph up and running you will be better able to determine the situation...
Good Luck.
John took it out today (must be nice to be retired) if he does not put a crimp on it at all just the neck tension of the brass accuracy goes away from 100 to 1000 yards. he said it was to the point where he gave up trying to even see where it hit at 800 yards.
if he puts a roll or taper crimp the short range accuracy is there the mid and long range go away. he even tied a lee factory crimp die from a 6.5x55.
he said that hits on the gopher at 400 yards were a lesson in futility. ( http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/sportsmans/Jumping-Targets-Rocking-Gopher-Steel-Motion-Target/productDetail/Reactive-Targets/prod999901368310/cat100428 ).
I guess we will keep trying.
It would be nice to see this round shoot as well as the Grendel does my daughters 5.56 is coming up on a barrel change and it would be nice to not have to change out her bolt and mags like I would have to to move her up to a Grendel. but so far the accuracy just is not there.
it is just cool to see the look on her face when she tags the gopher at 800 yards with the G. now if I could only get my gun back and set hers up to do the same.
I think you are correct in that it may just be a combination of lower velocity and overly tight crimp on the projectile causing the Issues that you have mentioned earlier...
At this point I would be happy with a rifle capable sub MOA groups and accurate out to 600 yards...Although I do understand that many competition and bench-rest guys are never satisfied till they get one hole groups at range...
Hopefully, once you get your chronograph up and running you will be better able to determine the situation...
Good Luck.
John took it out today (must be nice to be retired) if he does not put a crimp on it at all just the neck tension of the brass accuracy goes away from 100 to 1000 yards. he said it was to the point where he gave up trying to even see where it hit at 800 yards.
if he puts a roll or taper crimp the short range accuracy is there the mid and long range go away. he even tied a lee factory crimp die from a 6.5x55.
he said that hits on the gopher at 400 yards were a lesson in futility. ( http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/sportsmans/Jumping-Targets-Rocking-Gopher-Steel-Motion-Target/productDetail/Reactive-Targets/prod999901368310/cat100428 ).
I guess we will keep trying.
It would be nice to see this round shoot as well as the Grendel does my daughters 5.56 is coming up on a barrel change and it would be nice to not have to change out her bolt and mags like I would have to to move her up to a Grendel. but so far the accuracy just is not there.
it is just cool to see the look on her face when she tags the gopher at 800 yards with the G. now if I could only get my gun back and set hers up to do the same.
It can sometimes be difficult to get the crimp just right as the case neck is shorter than normal...so a little trial and error is sometimes needed to achieve the desired results...but crimping is definitely recommended, especially with the 6.5mm PCC round...
hockeynick39
10-19-13, 07:07
I have the update to QL which has a few new powders and bullets. I put some numbers in and they were not good. At 26 gr CFE223 under a 123 gr A-Max and an OAL of 2.260" showed an approximate velocity of 2541 fps, 74,191 PSI, and a 117% case fill. Something tells me that who ever input the data, missed a decimal or something. I don't know, but the ballistic modeling does not show much promise with that combination. The same thing happened to me when I was doing a load work up with my .405 Winchester (Ruger #1), 300 gr Barnes TSX/ FB, and H322. I reached my goal with that by doing old fashioned load work ups and a lot of playing with OALs, crimps, and consistent brass prep.
I am curious to know if you have the Lee FCD made for the 6.5 PCC. This will eliminate any guess work of the crimping. The other thing is that whether you crimp too hard or too light will only have a bearing on how much powder is burned in how long of the barrel because the crimp will hold the bullet in just that much longer or less creating a little more or less velocity. The tail end of the bullet is what steers the bullet and when the bearing surfaces of the sides of the bullet contact the rifling, they obturate to match for stabilization.
Another thing to all of this is, why are you stuck at an OAL of 2.260" when most everyone else is at or beyond 2.300" to eke out as much case capacity as possible. There are magazines that will allow for this if that is the hold up or even a lengthening of the chamber throat. I don't hold all of the answers, hell even the ones I give can be refuted by someone else who has a different method of loading. Nothing is magical, otherwise this would be a dead science. Have fun and shoot the cartridge as it is and designed to be, a decent medium range 6.5 mm that requires no changes to the platform that it is being used in. Good luck and stay safe.
Here is another awesome new 6.5mm PCC build, pics sent in by J. S., thanks J.S., keep us updated here on M4Carbine.net .
22884
22885
22886
22887
"Fired 50 rounds so far, doing barrel break in and fire forming brass. Function has been fine, and accuracy looks very good though not many rounds through it yet"
He used some top notch parts (BCM, Billet Lower, Geiselle DMR Trigger, Leupold Glass w/Base and Rings, YHM Quad Rail etc. )
Some more updates from Mr. J.S. from NM, USA:
http://x.co/3kmvw
http://x.co/3kn4Q
Getting better..... 123 grain A-Max with the tips removed, and H335 powder
Last week
Charge....FPS......ES...........Sd
25.4.......2335.....63.48.... 23.68
25.6.......2344.....42.91.....18.68
25.8.......2360.....17.03.......7.14
26.0.......2393.....18.42.......7.34
26.2.......2402.....16.24.......6.63
26.4.......2401.....20.53.......8.77
Today
26.4........2386.....33.49......14.79
26.6........2463.....21.55........7.93
26.8........2441.....21.20........8.24
27.0........2454.....19.03........7.14
How high have you guys gone with H335 and a 123 grain bullet.
That 27.0 grain load is looking pretty good.
http://x.co/3uQYT
http://x.co/3uQe9
Sierra 85gr. TNT Loads:
28.5........2786.......51.84......22.56
29.0........2792.......39.87......17.11
29.5........2835.......25.21......10.77
30.0........2874.......20.44........9.43
30.5........2915.......53.72......22.15
http://x.co/3uQf0
Here is another happy 6.5mm PCC end user...Really nice Buck L.S. what a monster !
L.S. was using a 123 gr A-Max at 2,500 (+) with his 24" tube...distance was pretty
close at around 35 yards, Instant DRT !
30047
30048
Another happy 6.5mm PCC end user (congrats Bruiser, and thanks for your service), 100 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips @ 2,711 fps.
(H335 @ 28.1 grs.) 20" tube. Distance was at 102 yards, total destruction of chest cavity...fell within 35 yards...(two whitetails).
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn255/sragrim/Mobile%20Uploads/20141107_083703.jpg
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn255/sragrim/Mobile%20Uploads/20141107_100552.jpg
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn255/sragrim/Mobile%20Uploads/20141107_100604.jpg
Thanks guys.
Mr. C.B. sent us these pics today with his new 6.5mm PCC 20" upper (built by us at our shop) with the very tacticool MI Keymod 15" rail
and low pro gas block...His first group with 120 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips right out the box...(C.B. is a champion competitive shooter)...Great
work C.B. ! The group is at 100 yards.
https://emailmg.ipage.com/ajax/mail?action=attachment&session=9d504496152243c0bc824046f67fa8de&folder=default0%2FINBOX&id=291&attachment=2&save=0&filter=1
https://emailmg.ipage.com/ajax/mail?action=attachment&session=9d504496152243c0bc824046f67fa8de&folder=default0%2FINBOX&id=291&attachment=3&save=0&filter=1
Update, we are in the process of testing the new Lehigh Defense Controlled Chaos 95gr. Solid Brass Projectiles...They have a .374 to .390 G1
ballistic coefficient and are short enough to work well with the 6.5mm PCC round (around 1.125" in length). The only potential issue may be
that the solids do not do well in a Polygonal bore like the conventional pills do...
So far Initial testing shows a best group size of 1 MOA, but 1.5 to 2.0 MOA on average for 100 yard test groups so far...We would of liked to
see consistent 1 MOA and less grouping at 100 yards...It looks to like the higher velocities, as velocities Increased the groups became tighter.
Initial velocities are starting from 2,550 fps and are looking to go to a maximum 2,860 fps out of 20" to 24" barrel lengths...
They make these pills in several popular calibers...Included below are some web links of the Controlled Chaos pills in action, they seem very
promising and are very reasonable in cost and are very well made (CNC turned).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeoy2Nyz9MQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeoy2Nyz9MQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrEmQNe-TrA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lu3F1Cc0JQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs6voS3gk2Q
Thanks guys.
Another update for you guys...
"At 200 yards at 25.8 grs. of H335 at 2350 fps the Hornady 123 SST's printed 0.5MOA and at 25.8 grs. of H335 at 2325 fps the 120gr. Nosler BTs were at 1 MOA"
He will be chiming In once he gets registered and approved...
Thanks C.B., we are all happy for you and once again, welcome aboard here on M4Carbine.net .
Dr69er,
Love the new upper - working great!
I'll be doing some more work with 130 Nosler Accubonds and H335 this weekend - if anyone has any useful advice beyond what's in the sheets previously shared I would appreciate it. The Nosler Partitions did not work well for me and I'm looking for something a little tougher than the Amax/SSTs that can hold 1800 fps out to 300 yd.
I gathered some thin-walled mags - thanks for the tip Dr.
CB
Dr69er,
Love the new upper - working great!
I'll be doing some more work with 130 Nosler Accubonds and H335 this weekend - if anyone has any useful advice beyond what's in the sheets previously shared I would appreciate it. The Nosler Partitions did not work well for me and I'm looking for something a little tougher than the Amax/SSTs that can hold 1800 fps out to 300 yd.
I gathered some thin-walled mags - thanks for the tip Dr.
CB
Thanks for chiming in CB, I'm glad everything is working out for you so well...125 gr. Nosler Partitions generally work well in the 6.5mm PCC round
for the most part, but there may be a few out there that do not...
Have you tried the Hornady 100 gr. Interbond Spire Soft Points or the Hornady 129 gr. Interbonds Spire Soft Points they both work well with the
6.5mm PCC round...
Also, the Speer 120 gr. HotCor's (Spire Soft Points) work very well and are generally very accurate in the 6.5mm PCC, they are very cost effective and
expand very well down to 1,600 fps, we used them almost exclusively for Northeast Whitetails and Feral Hogs hunting, etc. The penetration and weight
retention is excellent. They also have very good BC (.433 G1 if I recall correctly).
If we some spares we will ship them out to you for testing in your particular rifle set-up...Using the longer COL length mags and fire-formed brass will
get you were you want to be...
Thanks again for giving us your Input with your end user field results/experiances and welcome aboard to the M4Carbine.net beyond 5.56 forum thread...
Dr,
The 125 Partitions strung vertically for me at charge weights from 24- 25 gr H335 and I ran out of the box I had, so I moved on. I can't them to run as well as the ABs in my 260 Rem either.
I have not tried the 129 Hornady or the 120 Speer Hot Cor, but will pick some up if I run across them. I have lots of 120 BTs and 130 ABs on hand though.
Will report if the weather cooperates - "wintry mix" here in on Saturday (my only range day this weekend).
CB
Dr,
The 125 Partitions strung vertically for me at charge weights from 24- 25 gr H335 and I ran out of the box I had, so I moved on. I can't them to run as well as the ABs in my 260 Rem either.
I have not tried the 129 Hornady or the 120 Speer Hot Cor, but will pick some up if I run across them. I have lots of 120 BTs and 130 ABs on hand though.
Will report if the weather cooperates - "wintry mix" here in on Saturday (my only range day this weekend).
CB
Sounds good CB, go with what works for you for the time being...If I find those pills over
the weekend I will send out to you...
Thanks.
Digital_Damage
12-06-14, 18:49
Interesting.
Data from this weekend:
MVs measured w/Magnetospeed, 100 yd target distance, fresh FC 556 formed cases, H335 powder, ~ 5 min between firing each load test group (~ 6 rd each), MVs are avg of 2 or 3 rd
120 Nosler Ballistic Tips, polymer tips cut
COL 2.290"
26.2 gr H335 - 2425 fps, 1.0 MOA
26.5 hr H335 - 2458 fps, 1.0 MOA
The 2.290" ctgs did not feed well in my thin walled steel mags and bullets showed signs of hitting the lands when I unloaded loaded ctgs from the gun (marks on ctg removed from chamber, not going in to battery, etc.) , so I shortened them 0.020" and that resolved issues
COL 2.270"
26.8 gr H335 - 2461, 0.4 MOA group - really tight, even with the chrono attached, the group was under a MOA. The Magneto speed typicall pushes my AR groups up and left by about a MOA
130 gr Nosler Accubond, polymer tips cut, COL 2.270"
25.8 gr H335 - 2273 fps, 1.0 MOA group
26.3 gr H335 - 2302 fps, 0.5 MOA group
26.8 gr H335 - 2325 fps, 0.4 MOA group - best group of day
Overall I was very happy with what I saw.
If someone has Quick-load or similar software, could you run an analysis on these bullets and H335 powder in this ctg? I did not see or experience any over pressure signs on the brass, but would like something beyond that. Before I cut the tips, the cartridges are 2.440" long.
CB
Data from this weekend:
MVs measured w/Magnetospeed, 100 yd target distance, fresh FC 556 formed cases, H335 powder, ~ 5 min between firing each load test group (~ 6 rd each), MVs are avg of 2 or 3 rd
120 Nosler Ballistic Tips, polymer tips cut
COL 2.290"
26.2 gr H335 - 2425 fps, 1.0 MOA
26.5 hr H335 - 2458 fps, 1.0 MOA
The 2.290" ctgs did not feed well in my thin walled steel mags and bullets showed signs of hitting the lands when I unloaded loaded ctgs from the gun (marks on ctg removed from chamber, not going in to battery, etc.) , so I shortened them 0.020" and that resolved issues
COL 2.270"
26.8 gr H335 - 2461, 0.4 MOA group - really tight, even with the chrono attached, the group was under a MOA. The Magneto speed typicall pushes my AR groups up and left by about a MOA
130 gr Nosler Accubond, polymer tips cut, COL 2.270"
25.8 gr H335 - 2273 fps, 1.0 MOA group
26.3 gr H335 - 2302 fps, 0.5 MOA group
26.8 gr H335 - 2325 fps, 0.4 MOA group - best group of day
Overall I was very happy with what I saw.
If someone has Quick-load or similar software, could you run an analysis on these bullets and H335 powder in this ctg? I did not see or experience any over pressure signs on the brass, but would like something beyond that. Before I cut the tips, the cartridges are 2.440" long.
CB
Thanks CB for posting your updates, It must feel great to see clover leaf groups (or better in your case) since your getting .4 MOA
groups with your loads that you have been testing...!
Since the MAP for the 6.5mm PCC is 62K PSI (long throated) your near the maximum threshold for those loads listed, I would cap
both the 120gr NBT's and 130gr AB's at around 27.0 grs. of H335 powder.
Try to see where your combo of long COL and good cycling/feeding meet for your particular rifle, see if you get good results between a
COL of 2.275" to 2.285" with your current loads, it will likely get you to a happy medium of velocity, accuracy, and cycling...
Often the marks/scratches seen on the projectile are from the ejector spring pressure pushing the cartridge towards the ejection port while
pulling a live round out of the chamber and the projectile rubbing up against the barrel extension "teeth" as it is being ejected out of the chamber.
However, since the maximum usable magazine COL is at about 2.308" of any current AR-15 factory magazine (that I am aware of anyway) and since
you are loading to a raw COL of 2.440" and then either trimming the tips down (or just removing them), then yes you are likely reaching the lands...
Lake City 5.56mm brass usually gives us the best case capacities (non fire-formed at around 31.5 grs of H20) and fire-formed at around 32.5 grs or so.
So that will vary depending trim length, fire-forming, and COL.
How do you like the Manetospeed chronograph BTW, I have been eyeing one for a while now...Also, I am sure people are wondering since you are
tuning your loads to such a great level of accuracy...what scope are you using ?
Thanks again CB for updating us with your field results.
Below is a new Independent article by Rifleshooter.com (thanks guys) on the 6.5mm PCC round...Their new test barrel did not do as well
as most 6.5mm PCC end users barrels in both accuracy and velocity...
http://rifleshooter.com/2014/11/6-5-patriot-combat-cartridge-6-5-pcc-6-5mm-wildcat-for-the-ar15m-16/#prettyPhoto
Also listed below is some actual load data and field results by 6.5mm PCC end users (thanks guys):
https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=DA81475950B0DD90!150&ithint=file%2cpdf&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AOsCJUBhX9x9fmU
Another long range testing of the 6.5mm PCC round at a 600 meter steel target using 107gr Sierra SMK's (thanks guys):
http://vid163.photobucket.com/albums/t311/hilljacknm/65pcc600yrds_zpsmqwquho8.mp4
Thanks for the info and advice Dr. Great article too! I'll stay at 26.8 and with my new shorter COL. My goal was to have 1800 fps at >1000 ft-lb E at 300 yd, so I'm there if the velocity holds with the (now flat pointed) bullets. I will confirm that later in the season.
For now I'll play around with fine tuning what I have and going out to 600 yd when I can get to the range.
The MagnetoSpeed is GREAT! My F-TR coach showed me his last summer and I was hooked. It has been totally light/condition insenstive, correlated with my CDS light chrono when I checekd it on my 308 Win & 260 Rem, fits is a portable drill sized case, and works on a bunch of bbl profiles. When installed it changes the POI on my PCC upper 1.0 min up and 0.5 MOA high, but the groups hold. It literally takes me 2 minutes to unpack and install.
I have a Leupold 4.5x14x50 VX3 w/ a TS32 reticle mounted on the upper for load development. l really like it because I do not need a spotting scope out to 200 yd and the TS32 reticle allows me to make precise adjustments on the fly (no dialing) with different different load's POIs. I am old enough to forget to re-set dials now and then, so this he numbered MOA hash marks work for me. I have similar scopes on other LR rifles, so there is a familiarity aspect as well. I had to send the scope back to the factory to have the reticle installed (not currently offered on off-the-shelf scopes to my knowledge) but was worth it for me. The rifle was rested solidly on bags for all the data I presented.
CB
Thanks for the info and advice Dr. Great article too! I'll stay at 26.8 and with my new shorter COL. My goal was to have 1800 fps at >1000 ft-lb E at 300 yd, so I'm there if the velocity holds with the (now flat pointed) bullets. I will confirm that later in the season.
For now I'll play around with fine tuning what I have and going out to 600 yd when I can get to the range.
The MagnetoSpeed is GREAT! My F-TR coach showed me his last summer and I was hooked. It has been totally light/condition insenstive, correlated with my CDS light chrono when I checekd it on my 308 Win & 260 Rem, fits is a portable drill sized case, and works on a bunch of bbl profiles. When installed it changes the POI on my PCC upper 1.0 min up and 0.5 MOA high, but the groups hold. It literally takes me 2 minutes to unpack and install.
I have a Leupold 4.5x14x50 VX3 w/ a TS32 reticle mounted on the upper for load development. l really like it because I do not need a spotting scope out to 200 yd and the TS32 reticle allows me to make precise adjustments on the fly (no dialing) with different different load's POIs. I am old enough to forget to re-set dials now and then, so this he numbered MOA hash marks work for me. I have similar scopes on other LR rifles, so there is a familiarity aspect as well. I had to send the scope back to the factory to have the reticle installed (not currently offered on off-the-shelf scopes to my knowledge) but was worth it for me. The rifle was rested solidly on bags for all the data I presented.
CB
Sounds great CB, thanks for the quick reply...removing/trimming the tips has very little to no effect on your trajectory up to 350 yards, beyond
that It may. It is amazing how accurate you have tuned your 6.5mm PCC barrel/upper loads so far !
It is Interesting that the Magnetospeed chronograph does change the POI on the rifle, even if the additional weight is rather minimal...They
do seem so quick and simple to set-up...
What I like about the Leupold scopes is that they can be found at a reasonable price(s) and are always made here in the USA (AFAIK anyway).
I don't mind the larger (50mm) sized scopes with the higher power adjustable settings as I don't need the a spotting scope when you have say
24X power setting on your scope, although they do add some extra weight to the rifle...
Thanks.
30278
Here is a 26.8 H335, 130NAB 2.270" group at the end of the long, cold day with the Magneto speed attached- typo in my last post - it pushes most groups 1.0 MOA up and 0.5 MOA left.
Is there a tool for chamfering the tips of the cut tip rounds? I am sure they are not uniform but can't find a tool that will make that process easy.
You may try to use a architect's style (quality) pencil sharpener and lightly modify it for your personal use...
Thanks Dr.
An MSC outside chamfer mill (part number 60271160) mounted on a 5/16 threaded rod fit the bill perfectly. I just broke the edge of the remaining polymer tip. The chamfered rounds feed better than the unchamfered ones for me.
I loaded more 26.8 H335 rd to 2.270" OAL, 130 NABs and 120 NBTs w/cut and chamfered the tips last weekend and confirmed my previous chrono results and got some 300 yd dope. I also (finally) measured the headspace in my chamber w/120 NBTs and found it was 1.930" to the 120NBT and 130NAB ogives, so I set the bullets to 1.910 (0.020" HS) and cut the ctg tips to 2.2270" OAL. This helped.
We were shooting prone off mats. I used an QD Atlas bipod and a TAB rear bag.
Here is the first 100 yd group out of the gun that day: 30647
Holding 6 MOA up from my 100 yd zero w/the 120NBT loads at 300 yd produced some great 0.5 MOA groups - this was by far the best: 30649
The right side group is the 120NBT 6.5Patriot and the left is my partner's 260 Rem 142 SMK load (so I had a witness). The 120NBT would not feed reliably, but they shot great. The 130NAB groups were not as good as the NBTs, but they were all under 1 MOA and they fed fine. I think I'll settle on the NABs for hunting for that reason. According the JBM, if I zero at 200 yd/2.4" high at 100 yd they should have a PBR of 270 yd and hit at 1100 ftlb E & 1900 fps.
7.5 MOA up from the 100 yd zero hit an 8" plate @ 350 yd without issues with both loads.
The weather crapped out before I could do anything longer distances and confirm the 270 yd PBR - will have to be after the Holidays now.
Thanks again for the help and advice - I really like this set-up and I see another in my future in 2015. I'll be going for coyotes in Jan w/the 123 Amax loads and will report back.
Happy New Year,
CB
Thanks Dr.
An MSC outside chamfer mill (part number 60271160) mounted on a 5/16 threaded rod fit the bill perfectly. I just broke the edge of the remaining polymer tip. The chamfered rounds feed better than the unchamfered ones for me.
I loaded more 26.8 H335 rd to 2.270" OAL, 130 NABs and 120 NBTs w/cut and chamfered the tips last weekend and confirmed my previous chrono results and got some 300 yd dope. I also (finally) measured the headspace in my chamber w/120 NBTs and found it was 1.930" to the 120NBT and 130NAB ogives, so I set the bullets to 1.910 (0.020" HS) and cut the ctg tips to 2.2270" OAL. This helped.
We were shooting prone off mats. I used an QD Atlas bipod and a TAB rear bag.
Here is the first 100 yd group out of the gun that day: 30647
Holding 6 MOA up from my 100 yd zero w/the 120NBT loads at 300 yd produced some great 0.5 MOA groups - this was by far the best: 30649
The right side group is the 120NBT 6.5Patriot and the left is my partner's 260 Rem 142 SMK load (so I had a witness). The 120NBT would not feed reliably, but they shot great. The 130NAB groups were not as good as the NBTs, but they were all under 1 MOA and they fed fine. I think I'll settle on the NABs for hunting for that reason. According the JBM, if I zero at 200 yd/2.4" high at 100 yd they should have a PBR of 270 yd and hit at 1100 ftlb E & 1900 fps.
7.5 MOA up from the 100 yd zero hit an 8" plate @ 350 yd without issues with both loads.
The weather crapped out before I could do anything longer distances and confirm the 270 yd PBR - will have to be after the Holidays now.
Thanks again for the help and advice - I really like this set-up and I see another in my future in 2015. I'll be going for coyotes in Jan w/the 123 Amax loads and will report back.
Happy New Year,
CB
Cal264,
I could not be happier for you with your great results at 300 yards and beyond ! As many where able to see quick and
easy hits at 600 yards where achieved with the 6.5mm PCC round in the video clip shown in the previous posts...
Thanks again for your fantastic work and updates and solid load development with the 6.5mm PCC round.
Happy and prosperous new year to you and your family and the M4Carbine.net family/community.
We will be giving 100 grain LD C.C. pills a spin and along with 100 grain Barnes TTSX pills
a further look in the 6.5mm PCC...
Merry Christmas and a Healthy and Happy 2016 to everyone.
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