View Full Version : Excellent Movie Alert - Nanking: City of Life and Death...
City of Life and Death (2009) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1124052/)
It's been awhile since a movie has been so well made and accurate that I have been taken aback, this is especially true for a foreign film.
Despite being a Chinese / Hong Kong production it is amazingly accurate (no revisionist history propaganda here - not that it would be necessary). Perhaps most impressive is the Japanese main characters are portrayed in a remarkably considerate way (reminded me a little of Letters from Iwo Jima) although the Japanese are quickly shown as history remembers them.
The only real exaggeration I could see is some extraordinary military feats by Chinese defenders (nothing major and done in the same light as US forces using Navy SEAL hand signals to a greater extent than they existed in Band of Brothers) although who can really say how skilled they were. Other than some modern methods that were likely unknown at the time, the presentation of military tactics is remarkably accurate (probably on par with Band of Brothers).
Along those lines attention to detail regarding weapons and equipment is nothing short of amazing, including the German provided uniforms and gear of some of the Chinese defenders. In keeping with this accurate portrayal the Chinese defenders were shown as a collection of various government and local forces.
I wouldn't call it "as good" as Band of Brothers (despite being similar in many ways regarding accuracy) but it is better than say "Stalingrad" (1993), which many regard as excellent, and I think it is superior to "Letters from Iwo Jima" (2006) and probably "The Pacific" series (2010).
Netflix does have it.
Moose-Knuckle
05-22-12, 17:10
Great, thanks for the heads up. I always felt the rape of Nanking was good a history lesson, gun rights and all that.
Cesiumsponge
05-23-12, 09:27
Looks like a new movie to add to my queue. I love HK productions.
It's a shame that the pacific side of things aren't as well covered in general education regarding WWII. My grandfather fought in the Second Sino-Japanese war. The Japanese made the Nazis look like choir boys. Most of Asia still loathe the Japanese.
Looks like a new movie to add to my queue. I love HK productions.
It's a shame that the pacific side of things aren't as well covered in general education regarding WWII. My grandfather fought in the Second Sino-Japanese war. The Japanese made the Nazis look like choir boys. Most of Asia still loathe the Japanese.
This movie is detailed enough to make the Nazi party member who ran the safety zone a main character.
SW-Shooter
05-23-12, 19:16
For some reason Netflix on my TV won't play the subtitles. I can't figure it out, too bad it looks like a worthwhile flick.
Mauser KAR98K
05-23-12, 23:32
Watched it; loved it.
My American History professor during my first year in college taught us about the "raping of Nanking." The Japaneses were as a bad as the NAZI's IMO. Probably what the intent was in screening the film in black and white, creating China's own "Schindler's List."
SW-Shooter
05-24-12, 05:48
It's a tough movie to watch, how little I knew of the events that had transpired. The Japanese are now in the same class as the worst of the Nazi regime, in my opinion. Soldiers don't do that to anyone, let alone civilians. The Japanese Army in China were not soldiers, they were demons.
Watched it; loved it.
My American History professor during my first year in college taught us about the "raping of Nanking." The Japaneses were as a bad as the NAZI's IMO. Probably what the intent was in screening the film in black and white, creating China's own "Schindler's List."
I too caught the whole Schindlers List vibe regarding the tone of the movie. But I assumed they went black and white to make it more "period", besides I didn't see any little girls in a red coat.
It's a tough movie to watch, how little I knew of the events that had transpired. The Japanese are now in the same class as the worst of the Nazi regime, in my opinion. Soldiers don't do that to anyone, let alone civilians. The Japanese Army in China were not soldiers, they were demons.
Difficult as it will be to imagine for you, Unit 731 was worse. They actually performed Human vivisection on children with no anesthesia.
Cesiumsponge
05-24-12, 13:59
This movie is detailed enough to make the Nazi party member who ran the safety zone a main character.
John Rabe. There is also a movie about his life, self titled. I haven't seen it yet. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1124377/
Unit 731 also experimented with live amputations. They froze fingers and cut them off, then repeated with hands, forearms, arms, toes, feet, legs...when you were just a live torso and a head, you were sent off for bio and chem warfare testing.
There are also flyers that survived the war, things like sword beheading competitions on civilians( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contest_to_kill_100_people_using_a_sword) . The POW survival rate for non-caucasians was incredible compared to POW death rates under the Nazis. Civilians strong enough were used for forced slave labor. Fathers and sons were forced to rape mothers and daughters for the entertainment of soldiers. Comfort women, aka forced prostitution of civilian women, was an official military sanctioned activity and concentrated at "comfort stations" where women would service 40-50 soldiers a day. Soldiers often killed them by inserting swords and objects where the sun don't shine. I've read the suicide rate of those that survived was 40%.
I've never seen actual verifiable accounts of this, but I've also always heard from the old generation that it was common for Japanese soldiers to dispose of infants and toddlers by throwing them up in the air and casually catching them on a bayonet and other "novel" forms of bayonet and small arms practice since toddlers and infants weren't useful for labor or anything else.
Here is the point I don't see made often enough...the Nazi death camps were areas specifically for those horrific activities. The Japanese imperial army did this kind of cruelty everywhere. It was institutional, not isolated. There were never any official apologies or enough people held accountable, and textbooks in Japan continue to ignore or whitewash these events. Many people in Japan still have no idea what atrocities took place.
Moose-Knuckle
05-24-12, 15:27
The Japanese imperial army did this kind of cruelty everywhere. It was institutional, not isolated. There were never any official apologies or enough people held accountable, and textbooks in Japan continue to ignore or whitewash these events. Many people in Japan still have no idea what atrocities took place.
This is why it chapped my ass so much when Obama became the first American President to bow to the Japanese emperor and wanted to apologize for using "the bomb".
http://news.investors.com/photopopup.aspx?path=ISS2c_111012.jpg&docId=587698&xmpSource=&width=3963&height=2826&caption=In+November+2009%2c+Barack+Obama+became+the+first+U.S.+president+to+bow+to+Japan%26%2339%3bs+emperor.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/10/japanese-government-nixed-idea-of-obama-visiting-apologizing-for-hiroshima/
There were never any official apologies or enough people held accountable, and textbooks in Japan continue to ignore or whitewash these events. Many people in Japan still have no idea what atrocities took place.
I think that is a huge overstatement. Not trying to defend anything that happened or absolve anyone, but people in Japan today are not any more ignorant than anywhere else when it comes to these actions.
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I think that is a huge overstatement. Not trying to defend anything that happened or absolve anyone, but people in Japan today are not any more ignorant than anywhere else when it comes to these actions.
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I gotta disagree. I've met many nationals who honestly believe in the 1930s they were helping bring the pan Asian area into the modern world in the form of a super beneficial quasi colonialism aka the Pan Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere and then suddenly for no reason at all the United States dropped 2 atomic bombs on them.
To this day they continue to venerate war dead who were guilty of significant atrocities. Even worse some of them went on to prominent positions in the post war Japanese government.
This includes Masanobu Tsuji who was infamous for having eaten the liver of a captured pilot during the war. Investigations have revealed that he was involved in war crimes throughout the Pacific war including the massacre of Chinese civilians in Singapore, the executions of numerous surrendered prisoners of war during the Bataan Death March, and other war crimes in China. Masanobu Tsuji was regarded as the most notorious Japanese war criminal to escape trial after the war.
After Japan's surrender in September 1945, Tsuji went into hiding in Thailand for fear of being tried on war crimes charges. When it was clear he would not be, he returned to Japan and wrote of his years in hiding in Senko Sanzenri, which became a best seller. His memoirs made him famous and he later became a member of the Diet (the very ironic name of the Japanese government).
And to this day the Japanese show a distinct unwillingness to own up to their actions during the war (despite official apologies in some cases).
This includes having to see a wartime memorial for Korean victims of the "comfort women" program. They actually requested it be removed from a public park.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/nyregion/monument-in-palisades-park-nj-irritates-japanese-officials.html?_r=1
Imagine the outcry if an American politician in the south objected having to see a slavery memorial.
How does this disprove what I wrote?
The average Japanese knows about as much about Japan and the Second World War and atrocities, as the average American knows about the US Cavalry and the war on the American Indian. Or about Americans and their knowledge of and belief of atrocities in WW2.
Lots of important people in the German Army (Wehrmacht of WW2) rose up through West Germany's military and political scene as well.
I have been to Japan many times. I've never met any Japanese person today, in the 2000s, who believes that. Do they exist? Sure. Same way the KKK still exists or skinheads exist. But it is not mainstream belief or position.
Are there isolated cases? Sure. But it is in the fringe. Like the skinheads or neo-Nazis are in the fringe here.
I gotta disagree. I've met many nationals who honestly believe in the 1930s they were helping bring the pan Asian area into the modern world in the form of a super beneficial quasi colonialism aka the Pan Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere and then suddenly for no reason at all the United States dropped 2 atomic bombs on them.
To this day they continue to venerate war dead who were guilty of significant atrocities. Even worse some of them went on to prominent positions in the post war Japanese government.
This includes Masanobu Tsuji who was infamous for having eaten the liver of a captured pilot during the war. Investigations have revealed that he was involved in war crimes throughout the Pacific war including the massacre of Chinese civilians in Singapore, the executions of numerous surrendered prisoners of war during the Bataan Death March, and other war crimes in China. Masanobu Tsuji was regarded as the most notorious Japanese war criminal to escape trial after the war.
After Japan's surrender in September 1945, Tsuji went into hiding in Thailand for fear of being tried on war crimes charges. When it was clear he would not be, he returned to Japan and wrote of his years in hiding in Senko Sanzenri, which became a best seller. His memoirs made him famous and he later became a member of the Diet (the very ironic name of the Japanese government).
And to this day the Japanese show a distinct unwillingness to own up to their actions during the war (despite official apologies in some cases).
This includes having to see a wartime memorial for Korean victims of the "comfort women" program. They actually requested it be removed from a public park.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/nyregion/monument-in-palisades-park-nj-irritates-japanese-officials.html?_r=1
Imagine the outcry if an American politician in the south objected having to see a slavery memorial.
Cesiumsponge
05-24-12, 16:38
Even many Americans are naive to the true extent of imperial Japanese actions during WWII. Plenty of folks I talk to go on about Nazi this and Nazi that but are fairly naive about Japanese war crimes. There is a vague understanding they did bad things, but not much more. When I did history courses back in high school, it overwhelmingly focused in German concentration camps and the Nazis. The only thing we covered on the Pacific side were some skirmishes, the blockades, the attack on Pearl Harbor, and the dropping of atomic bombs.
I'm not suggesting Japan is completely ignorant to it but if US public education barely touches it, I can't see Japan putting more emphasis on it, especially since there are known politics behind whtewashing it. I'm not suggesting we do what Germany did post war and give them "Nazi guilt" and make some free speech illegal, but neglecting the topic isn't any better.
When talking about the general atrocities (not the Unit 731 and similar) I think calling it "institutionalized" is wrong. It was wide spread, accepted, etc. But there was no top-down organizational attempt at committing these crimes (again, ignoring things like Unit 731 or "comfort women"). IN other words, there was not a top down order from the leadership to do this, unlike the Nazi extermination of the Jews and other "undesirables". It was just accepted as appropriate at most levels. If you read about the Rape of Nanking, one of the Japanese Generals was not at all happy with what was going on and did not condone it.
This does not accept or excuse it or make it any less horrific. But it puts it somewhat in a different league compared to the Nazi Holocaust, which was centrally planned murder of millions.
My son (9 years old) has been bringing home lots of different youth-oriented books on the Holocaust recently and we have been reading them together. I've read lots of books on WW2, including on the Nazis and Holocaust in my years, but reading these with him really emphasizes the complete and utter disregard for humanity they (the Nazis) had.
And, while on a totally different and much less scale, national hatred and xenophobia was much more common in all societies then, including in our own (Japanese internment camps, the names and slanders against our enemies, etc -- much different scale but symptomatic of the same sort of thing. The Germans were not the only anti-Semitic peoples before and during WW2. Poland was probably, on a whole, more anti-Semitic in the populace than Germany.) And I am sure Mao and his Chi-coms before and during WW2 and afterwards were saints on the field of combat.
Yes, the Japanese did lots of really horrific things on a large scale during WW2. Very horrific. The Japanese of today do not excuse or condone that behavior as a society any more than you or I condone it. They have become very pacifistic due to their experiences during WW2.
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How does this disprove what I wrote?
The average Japanese knows about as much about Japan and the Second World War and atrocities, as the average American knows about the US Cavalry and the war on the American Indian. Or about Americans and their knowledge of and belief of atrocities in WW2.
Again that has not been my experience with Japanese nationals.
Lots of important people in the German Army (Wehrmacht of WW2) rose up through West Germany's military and political scene as well.
Well I didn't say Japanese soldiers, I said those who were war criminals and committed atrocities. Big difference.
But to use your German analogy, with the exception of Paperclip, if you were a member of the nazi party you couldn't get a job in the post war government as a mail carrier. There was an intense denazification program and nobody who was a war criminal served in the post war German government.
In Japan there were several. Additionally, the war crimes trials were not nearly as comprehensive in Japan as they were in Germany. They pretty much only got the well known guys such as Tojo and Homma and then pretended guys like Hirohito had nothing to do with anything and then the US cut deals with other criminals.
I have been to Japan many times. I've never met any Japanese person today, in the 2000s, who believes that. Do they exist? Sure. Same way the KKK still exists or skinheads exist. But it is not mainstream belief or position.
Are there isolated cases? Sure. But it is in the fringe. Like the skinheads or neo-Nazis are in the fringe here.
Well in the story I linked it was the Japanese consul general at the Japanese consulate in NY and members of the Japanese Embassy in Seoul, Korea. These are not fringe "hate groups" for official representatives of the Japanese government.
When talking about the general atrocities (not the Unit 731 and similar) I think calling it "institutionalized" is wrong. It was wide spread, accepted, etc. But there was no top-down organizational attempt at committing these crimes (again, ignoring things like Unit 731 or "comfort women"). IN other words, there was not a top down order from the leadership to do this, unlike the Nazi extermination of the Jews and other "undesirables". It was just accepted as appropriate at most levels. If you read about the Rape of Nanking, one of the Japanese Generals was not at all happy with what was going on and did not condone it.
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The Black Dragon Society was not "institutionalized" and there was no "on the record" mandate to start the Pacific War. But that didn't stop this secret society from doing just that and deliberately setting up Unit 731 for the expressed purposes of human experimentation.
One could make a similar argument that the Wannsee Conference was "unofficial" and that no proof of Hitlers knowledge or involvement has ever been documented. But that doesn't make it so and it doesn't make Hitler innocent.
The common theme here is when countries do heinous things they tend to be as secretive as possible. This is one of the reasons why the average person toady, including the Japanese, really has no idea what Unit 731 was.
They know about the war, and they know about things like the Kamikaze program. And when questioned acts of brutality in the Philippine campaign they say it was war and "everyone did it." They see specific things like the Bataan Death March as "no different" than the firebombing of Tokyo.
But the Japanese soldier who stood his ground at Tarawa and engaged in a suicidal banzai charge at Guadalcanal is in no way the same as those who "ran wild" in Nanking raping and murdering women, executing civilians for sword practice and those who performed vivisection on children in Manchuria.
That is like trying to equate the average Wehrmacht soldier who fought within the rules of war with the members of the Waffen SS who murdered POWs at Malmady or the doctors like Mengele. They simply aren't the same.
And, while on a totally different and much less scale, national hatred and xenophobia was much more common in all societies then, including in our own (Japanese internment camps, the names and slanders against our enemies, etc -- much different scale but symptomatic of the same sort of thing.
To the best of my knowledge we didn't conduct experiments on or execute those at internment camps. Not defending them, but they can in no way be equated with what the Japanese did. Also, there were Germans and Italians who were also interned (although not on the same scale) and we did have an all Japanese "Nisei" division fighting in Europe.
Yes, the Japanese did lots of really horrific things on a large scale during WW2. Very horrific. The Japanese of today do not excuse or condone that behavior as a society any more than you or I condone it. They have become very pacifistic due to their experiences during WW2.
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But that simply is not true. The Yasukuni Shrine still honors war dead who committed war crimes and atrocities. Among those buried there include General Homma and Tojo, who are now honored as "kami."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine#Enshrinement_of_war_criminals
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=46465816
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=20880
http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/postwar/state8608.html
However, for such reasons as the enshrinement of the so-called "class-A war criminals" at Yasukuni Shrine, criticism on the official visit last year has been raised by the peoples of neighboring countries who experienced tremendous suffering and damage as a result of Japan's acts in the past, questioning whether the Ministers worshipped these "class-A war criminals" who were responsible for such acts of Japan. In addition, it is even possible that they come to misunderstand and mistrust Japan's remorse on the past war and the determination for peace and friendship which were expressed on various occasions. This would not be either the interest of Japan, which hopes to promote friendship with other nations, or the ultimate wish of the war dead.
I knew the Japanese in WWII were messed up, but damn....
Moose-Knuckle
05-24-12, 18:37
There is another film about Unit 731 that came out several years ago, Philosophy of a Knife (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0961119/).
Well I didn't say Japanese soldiers, I said those who were war criminals and committed atrocities. Big difference.
But to use your German analogy, with the exception of Paperclip, if you were a member of the nazi party you couldn't get a job in the post war government as a mail carrier. There was an intense denazification program and nobody who was a war criminal served in the post war German government.
patently false
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/from-dictatorship-to-democracy-the-role-ex-nazis-played-in-early-west-germany-a-810207.html
In Japan there were several. Additionally, the war crimes trials were not nearly as comprehensive in Japan as they were in Germany. They pretty much only got the well known guys such as Tojo and Homma and then pretended guys like Hirohito had nothing to do with anything and then the US cut deals with other criminals.
I did not find a number for German, but according to Wikipedia, a total of 920 Japanese military and civilians were executed after WW2 for war crimes.
I am not saying there was equal pursuit of the guilty. It is well possible and likely that fewer Japanese were brought to trial and punished.
Well in the story I linked it was the Japanese consul general at the Japanese consulate in NY and members of the Japanese Embassy in Seoul, Korea. These are not fringe "hate groups" for official representatives of the Japanese government.
And to this day the Japanese show a distinct unwillingness to own up to their actions during the war (despite official apologies in some cases).
by some groups. Not the general populace. And, believe it or not, not the government. The government has apologized many times, has admitted the actions took place, etc.
This includes having to see a wartime memorial for Korean victims of the "comfort women" program. They actually requested it be removed from a public park.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/nyregion/monument-in-palisades-park-nj-irritates-japanese-officials.html?_r=1
Imagine the outcry if an American politician in the south objected having to see a slavery memorial.
In reading this, there seem to have been two different groups. One from the consulate, and later a few legislators. The consular people did not seem to make excuses for it, while the legislators did. However, that cannot be seen as official policy, since the government has already apologized, admitted the events happened, etc. So that was a private mission by legislators. And legislators cannot be from the fringe?
I am not sure what we are actually arguing about. I maintain that today's Japanese are not responsible for previous generations atrocities, that today's Japanese (as a whole) do not disavow or try to whitewash it, they acknowledge it, and it pains them, and are as knowledgable and as ignorant as Americans are about their country's history of atrocity (for example, with the American Indian) (as well as Americans' knowledge of the extent of Japanese atrocity as well). I also acknowledge that there are, percentage-wise, small numbers of fringe elements in Japanese society that deny it, etc. The same as America has its fringe, that Holocaust deniers exist, etc.
I think part of the problem is the Japanese way of dealing with this looks foreign to us due to our differences in general societal outlook ("face" and the group vs individualism, etc)
(and lest anyone thing I am willingly blind due to my wife being born and raised in Japan, she is 3rd generation Japanese Korean -- all her grandparents came from Korea to Japan -- and she had a Korean passport before she became an American, and if any bias were to exist it should be *against* Japan since Koreans were one of the main groups that bore the brunt of certain categories of atrocity like so-called "comfort women").
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The Black Dragon Society was not "institutionalized" and there was no "on the record" mandate to start the Pacific War. But that didn't stop this secret society from doing just that and deliberately setting up Unit 731 for the expressed purposes of human experimentation.
One could make a similar argument that the Wannsee Conference was "unofficial" and that no proof of Hitlers knowledge or involvement has ever been documented. But that doesn't make it so and it doesn't make Hitler innocent.
The common theme here is when countries do heinous things they tend to be as secretive as possible. This is one of the reasons why the average person toady, including the Japanese, really has no idea what Unit 731 was.
You will note I excepted Unit 731 and other "small scale" atrocities from my comments about institutionalization of the atrocities.
I am not saying that these were insignificant. I am saying they are insignificant compared to the institutionalized murder of the "Final Solution".
The not-institutionalized bit was all the general atrocity committed by the army and its officers and soldiers. The bayonetting of babies and all that sort of stuff. Horrific and terrible yes. And unfortunately all too common and accepted and wide spread. But not some sort of official program.
And there is plenty to link Hitler directly to it, besides his general writings. For example, reports and stuff detailing it.
They know about the war, and they know about things like the Kamikaze program. And when questioned acts of brutality in the Philippine campaign they say it was war and "everyone did it." They see specific things like the Bataan Death March as "no different" than the firebombing of Tokyo.
One problem we have today is that we judge the past using our morals of today, and not in the context of the times. There are those today who want to label the firebombing of Tokyo, of Dresden, the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as war crimes. (Not me!)
The Bataan Death March was a horrific atrocity. But in the context of the times, it was slightly less so (still horrific and an atrocity, just needing to be looked at in a different context) -- civilization at the time looked at acts in war differently then than they do today. Look at history and conduct in war and up through WW2 things were a lot different than they are now. Disregard for your enemy and his civilians, was more acceptable in the centuries leading up to the 1900s and the first half of the 1900s. (Look at the looting and pillaging on both sides in the South in the American Revolution for example). That does not excuse it and even at the time it was very extreme and not at all normal. But the same kind of thinking about war, nations, other peoples, that lead to the Bataan Death March and similar, also lead to the firebombing of Tokyo, Dresden, atomic bombs, etc. As well as the internment of the Japanese in the USA. Namely, your enemy was your enemy, deserved no quarter, and you did what you needed to do to win.
But the Japanese soldier who stood his ground at Tarawa and engaged in a suicidal banzai charge at Guadalcanal is in no way the same as those who "ran wild" in Nanking raping and murdering women, executing civilians for sword practice and those who performed vivisection on children in Manchuria.
That is like trying to equate the average Wehrmacht soldier who fought within the rules of war with the members of the Waffen SS who murdered POWs at Malmady or the doctors like Mengele. They simply aren't the same.
You are right. They are not the same. That is kind of my point, I think. My objections are the lumping in of all Japanese (or Germans or whomever) into the group of atrocity complicit or accepting. Especially 60 years later, a new generation of two later.
(But remember that lots of Waffen SS were just soldiers who fought within the rules of war (my friend's father was one of them, conscripted into the Waffen SS, as was the famous leftist writer Günter Grass), and the Wehrmacht ran special Einsatzgruppen who went around shooting and gassing jews, so be careful with the general categorizing of them.)
I've had this in my instant que for a few months but have not watched it yet. I'll have to fit it in this weekend.
To the best of my knowledge we didn't conduct experiments on or execute those at internment camps. Not defending them, but they can in no way be equated with what the Japanese did. Also, there were Germans and Italians who were also interned (although not on the same scale) and we did have an all Japanese "Nisei" division fighting in Europe.
I did not say it was the same. I said the same sort of generalized thinking led to the behavior.
But that simply is not true. The Yasukuni Shrine still honors war dead who committed war crimes and atrocities. Among those buried there include General Homma and Tojo, who are now honored as "kami."
No one is "buried" at Yasukuni Shrine. Their "kami" are enshrined. General Homma and General Tojo are not honored there. Right or Wrong, their "kami" were enshrined, having died "in service" to the emperor, according to Shinto belief. Once enshrined, their "kami" merge with the "kami" of everyone else and become some sort of inseparable "kami". There is not special honor given to Homma or Tojo. They are just part of the overall scenery, so to speak, and are not specially or specifically honored. (I am not saying I agree with this, just trying to dispel misunderstandings -- war criminals are not honored or worshipped there).
It is a private organization, not run by the government, btw.
I went there this past year (2011) when we were in Japan. We did not go into the shrine, just the Yueshuekan museum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine#Enshrinement_of_war_criminals
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=46465816
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=20880
http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/postwar/state8608.html
However, for such reasons as the enshrinement of the so-called "class-A war criminals" at Yasukuni Shrine, criticism on the official visit last year has been raised by the peoples of neighboring countries who experienced tremendous suffering and damage as a result of Japan's acts in the past, questioning whether the Ministers worshipped these "class-A war criminals" who were responsible for such acts of Japan. In addition, it is even possible that they come to misunderstand and mistrust Japan's remorse on the past war and the determination for peace and friendship which were expressed on various occasions. This would not be either the interest of Japan, which hopes to promote friendship with other nations, or the ultimate wish of the war dead.
Just in case anyone is interested, this is an interesting summary of the Japanese General who was overall in charge of the Japanese Central China Area Army, which was the one who took Nanking:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iwane_Matsui
A tragic figure if there ever was one.
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patently false
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/from-dictatorship-to-democracy-the-role-ex-nazis-played-in-early-west-germany-a-810207.html
But this just recently came to light, similar to Hirohito having complete knowledge of most things. Germany didn't "knowingly" hire nazis to government positions like Japan.
And again, there is an important distinction between a member of the nazi party and a war criminal. Also several individuals in that article joined at the end of the war while they were still in their teens. Hardly the same thing.
I did not find a number for German, but according to Wikipedia, a total of 920 Japanese military and civilians were executed after WW2 for war crimes.
I am not saying there was equal pursuit of the guilty. It is well possible and likely that fewer Japanese were brought to trial and punished.
The problem isn't those who got away. Mengele got away, I don't fault Germany. But Mengele, unlike Masanobu Tsuji, didn't become a member of government and write best selling books about his war experience.
You are right. They are not the same. That is kind of my point, I think. My objections are the lumping in of all Japanese (or Germans or whomever) into the group of atrocity complicit or accepting. Especially 60 years later, a new generation of two later.
I have not done that. I recognize those distinctions.
(But remember that lots of Waffen SS were just soldiers who fought within the rules of war (my friend's father was one of them, conscripted into the Waffen SS, as was the famous leftist writer Günter Grass), and the Wehrmacht ran special Einsatzgruppen who went around shooting and gassing jews, so be careful with the general categorizing of them.)
And that is why I specified the Waffen SS at Malmady.
No one is "buried" at Yasukuni Shrine. Their "kami" are enshrined.
Not correct, their ashes are there.
General Homma and General Tojo are not honored there. Right or Wrong, their "kami" were enshrined, having died "in service" to the emperor, according to Shinto belief. Once enshrined, their "kami" merge with the "kami" of everyone else and become some sort of inseparable "kami". There is not special honor given to Homma or Tojo. They are just part of the overall scenery, so to speak, and are not specially or specifically honored. (I am not saying I agree with this, just trying to dispel misunderstandings -- war criminals are not honored or worshipped there).
Yet they are included and honored with all the others, exactly the same way. I never said there was a special memorial just for them. But imagine if the Germans had a memorial for all of their war dead including Hitler, Himmler, Eichmann, Heydrich and Muller and then attempted to say that revering them is acceptable because they are combined in spirit with everyone else.
It is a private organization, not run by the government, btw.
I went there this past year (2011) when we were in Japan. We did not go into the shrine, just the Yueshuekan museum
I don't think a private shrine that honors the architects of the final solution in Germany would be any more acceptable than a government sponsored one.
Just in case anyone is interested, this is an interesting summary of the Japanese General who was overall in charge of the Japanese Central China Area Army, which was the one who took Nanking:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iwane_Matsui
A tragic figure if there ever was one.
---
From the above source...
"While Matsui himself was not present during the beginning of the atrocities (he was ill at the time), he was aware of what his men were doing in the city, as were members of the Japanese foreign service who had followed the army into the city."
The only thing "tragic" there is that he, and others, did nothing to stop it. That he cried and worried for the reputation of the Imperial Army does not move me.
He had the authority to intervene and did not. He had the authority to hold people responsible and did not. Certainly much of the responsibility actually lies with Asaka, but if Matsui knew he about it, he could have at a minimum issued orders to cease.
He seems more concerned by the reputation of Japan that was harmed by these incidents than by the incidents themselves.
But this just recently came to light, similar to Hirohito having complete knowledge of most things. Germany didn't "knowingly" hire nazis to government positions like Japan.
Do you really mean that? The info was in their archives. Or was it just that nobody asked?
You claimed that having a Nazi past couldn't get you hired as a postman. In fact, a Chancellor and a President had Nazi pasts.
And if you read the article, LOTS of people who were part of the Nazi government at all levels later ran pieces of the West German govt. The whole Nazi government was indicted (not in a legal sense) in the atrocities. They oiled the gears that made the Holocaust work. (Based on reading the article I listed)
And again, there is an important distinction between a member of the nazi party and a war criminal. Also several individuals in that article joined at the end of the war while they were still in their teens. Hardly the same thing.
The problem isn't those who got away. Mengele got away, I don't fault Germany. But Mengele, unlike Masanobu Tsuji, didn't become a member of government and write best selling books about his war experience.
(based on Wikipedia)
Seems like Tsuji was never indicted as a war criminal and his participation in war crimes came to light later on through investigation.
His book seems to not have been about his war experiences, but rather his time of hiding after the war.
Not a very nice guy in any case.
From the above source...
"While Matsui himself was not present during the beginning of the atrocities (he was ill at the time), he was aware of what his men were doing in the city, as were members of the Japanese foreign service who had followed the army into the city."
The only thing "tragic" there is that he, and others, did nothing to stop it. That he cried and worried for the reputation of the Imperial Army does not move me.
He gave specific orders to behave well, both before and during/after.
later investigators have seen fit to support him as having been sick during most of it and not in direct command.
from the wikipedia article
Historical assessment
The first edition of The Rape of Nanking, by Iris Chang, followed the IMTFE's lead in blaming Matsui for the massacre arguing the traditional view that Matsui planned the invasion of Nanking and was Asaka's commanding officer during the Rape. Chang however revised her position in subsequent editions and insisted on the fact that Matsui was sick during the massacre and that Asaka was therefore the officer in charge.
James Yin and Shi Young's book of the same title also blames Asaka for the massacre, and portrays Matsui as a helpless figurehead stuck between a prince and an emperor. The truth is a matter of continued debate.
back to our discussion:
He had the authority to intervene and did not. He had the authority to hold people responsible and did not. Certainly much of the responsibility actually lies with Asaka, but if Matsui knew he about it, he could have at a minimum issued orders to cease.
it seems he did issues orders. According to the Tribunals decision:
"He did issue orders before the capture of the city enjoining propriety of conduct upon his troops and later he issued further orders to the same purport. "
He seems more concerned by the reputation of Japan that was harmed by these incidents than by the incidents themselves.
Not really. His Buddhist statue of atonement he made and faced towards Nanking shows this.
I am not saying this guy is totally comes out smelling like roses. But he did not agree with, encourage, or promote it, gave explicit orders against it, was sick during most of it and disengaged. Was recalled back to Japan immediately thereafter and retired. And hung later on. That is a case of being a tragic figure.
Not correct, their ashes are there.
No, they are not.
I find no mention of the word ash or ashes in the wikipedia article on Yasukuni Shrine, and when I searched using Bing I came across several articles that mention that the ashes are NOT there including this one:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/05/post_10.html
CarlosDJackal
05-24-12, 23:11
...And, believe it or not, not the government. The government has apologized many times, has admitted the actions took place, etc...
I call bullshit unless you can provide actual proof that THE JAPANESE AS A NATION has admitted to their culpability in the attoricities commited by their people during the war years.
And no, admitting that they happened is NOT admitting that their soldiers actualy committed the atrocitities.
I call bullshit unless you can provide actual proof that THE JAPANESE AS A NATION has admitted to their culpability in the attoricities commited by their people during the war years.
And no, admitting that they happened is NOT admitting that their soldiers actualy committed the atrocitities.
What exactly are you calling "bullish*t" on?
--
Google is your friend. Lots of occurrences. I believe I pointed out lists of quotes showing that last time you made this claim.
--
Do you really mean that? The info was in their archives. Or was it just that nobody asked?
Or more likely it was denied.
You claimed that having a Nazi past couldn't get you hired as a postman. In fact, a Chancellor and a President had Nazi pasts.
Well let's look them up.
Walter Scheel was a member of the Luftwaffe as a radio operator. I don't see anything about nazi party membership.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Scheel
Kurt Georg Kiesinger was a nazi party member and even worked for Goebbels. But he wasn't a war criminal and thus not on par with those Japanese individuals I named.
Also doesn't sound like he was a very good nazi.
"During the controversies of 1966, the magazine Der Spiegel unearthed a Memorandum dated November 7th 1944 (five months before the war's end) by which a colleague denounced to Himmler a conspiracy including Kiesinger that was propagating defaitism and hampering anti-Jewish actions within their department and several others."
As for denazification.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification
Denazification (German: Entnazifizierung) was an Allied initiative to rid German and Austrian society, culture, press, economy, judiciary, and politics of any remnants of the National Socialist ideology. It was carried out specifically by removing those involved from positions of influence and by disbanding or rendering impotent the organizations associated with it. The program of denazification was launched after the end of the Second World War and was solidified by the Potsdam Agreement.
We also must keep in mind it mostly ended in 1951 because it was counter productive. Nearly everyone in Germany had a nazi related past because membership in nazi groups was compulsory. Even the pope had a Hitler Jugend past.
Basically when you couldn't get the post office to run right because there was nobody to run it, the program had problems.
And if you read the article, LOTS of people who were part of the Nazi government at all levels later ran pieces of the West German govt. The whole Nazi government was indicted (not in a legal sense) in the atrocities. They oiled the gears that made the Holocaust work. (Based on reading the article I listed)
(based on Wikipedia)
Seems like Tsuji was never indicted as a war criminal and his participation in war crimes came to light later on through investigation.
His book seems to not have been about his war experiences, but rather his time of hiding after the war.
Not a very nice guy in any case.
Tsuji was likely not indicted because there was nobody left alive to report him and Japanese names just weren't as easy as German names for allies looking for war criminals.
This problem was compounded by the fact that after the war MacArthur was far more interested in being the last True Emperor of Japan than he was in bringing war criminals to justice and upsetting his reign.
No, they are not.
I find no mention of the word ash or ashes in the wikipedia article on Yasukuni Shrine, and when I searched using Bing I came across several articles that mention that the ashes are NOT there including this one:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/05/post_10.html
I already posted the info.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=20880
Hideki Tojo:
His ashes are divided between the Yasukuni Shrine and the Zoshigaya Cemetery.
Same location is given for Masaharu Homma's remains.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=46465816
Your source also suggests Yasukuni is not a place of worship and we both know that to be untrue. While not a church we both know enough about Shinto and what a "kami" is.
He gave specific orders to behave well, both before and during/after.
later investigators have seen fit to support him as having been sick during most of it and not in direct command.
from the wikipedia article
back to our discussion:
it seems he did issues orders. According to the Tribunals decision:
"He did issue orders before the capture of the city enjoining propriety of conduct upon his troops and later he issued further orders to the same purport. "
So who did he hold accountable for disobeying his orders? Who replaced Asaka when he learned those orders were being flagrantly disregarded? Who did he send to stop the atrocities and make sure his orders were followed?
Not really. His Buddhist statue of atonement he made and faced towards Nanking shows this.
I am not saying this guy is totally comes out smelling like roses. But he did not agree with, encourage, or promote it, gave explicit orders against it, was sick during most of it and disengaged. Was recalled back to Japan immediately thereafter and retired. And hung later on. That is a case of being a tragic figure.
And I disagree. He had knowledge of what was happening and the authority to stop it. He did not. If you issue orders and they are not followed you relieve the person in charge, he did not do that.
At a minimum, after the fact, you hold people accountable. He did not do that either. The only thing tragic about Nanking was what the Japanese did there.
I call bullshit unless you can provide actual proof that THE JAPANESE AS A NATION has admitted to their culpability in the attoricities commited by their people during the war years.
And no, admitting that they happened is NOT admitting that their soldiers actualy committed the atrocitities.
Actually the Japanese government has apologized for a few things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#Official_apologies
These official apologies were the basis for their objection to some Korean memorials in Seoul which they requested be removed because they already apologized.
However most of these apologize are generalized and non specific and usually refer to the "suffering" caused by the war which Japan was responsible for. As an example"
"through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations"
There have been no specific apologizes for things like Unit 731.
The most specific apologies have been in regard to the treatment of former American and Australian POWs but those apologies did not specifically mention incidents such as Bataan.
So who did he hold accountable for disobeying his orders? Who replaced Asaka when he learned those orders were being flagrantly disregarded? Who did he send to stop the atrocities and make sure his orders were followed?
He was no longer in charge. He had been recalled to Japan.
And do you think a mere general could challenge the uncle of the divine emperor?
And I disagree. He had knowledge of what was happening and the authority to stop it. He did not. If you issue orders and they are not followed you relieve the person in charge, he did not do that.
At a minimum, after the fact, you hold people accountable. He did not do that either. The only thing tragic about Nanking was what the Japanese did there.
Again, re-read the article. He lost his job and was brought back to Japan. And how do you relieve the uncle of the emperor exactly? A prince of the royal household, where the emperor is worshiped as a deity? How does that work?
Well, there are lots of other varied sources (google will find them) that claim no ashes are enshrined or entombed or anything at the Shrine.
http://www.japanecho.com/sum/2006/330503.html
http://dissidentvoice.org/Dec05/Petersen1212.htm
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rogers/rogers188.html
http://articles.latimes.com/1986-08-15/news/mn-3733_1_yasukuni-shrine
etc
there are also ones that claim there are ashes. However, being Shinto, there probably are not as that is not a Shinto thing.
And being simultaneously Buddhist, Japanese usually follow Buddhist traditions which mean a marked grave for the remains or ashes.
--
The shrine itself mentions that it is not a place where bodies or bones are buried like a tomb but the spirited enshrined.
http://www.yasukuni.or.jp/english/about/history.html
I already posted the info.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=20880
Hideki Tojo:
His ashes are divided between the Yasukuni Shrine and the Zoshigaya Cemetery.
Same location is given for Masaharu Homma's remains.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=46465816
Your source also suggests Yasukuni is not a place of worship and we both know that to be untrue. While not a church we both know enough about Shinto and what a "kami" is.
there are also ones that claim there are ashes. However, being Shinto, there probably are not as that is not a Shinto thing.
That really isn't the case either.
http://www.worldclass.net/TeachingGlobally/WorldReligions/shinto_funerals.htm
Great care is taken when planning funerals and anniversaries of recent deaths and in the upkeep of the gravesites and home shrines. The photograph to the left is of a typical gravesite in Japan. Even though it is large in size, only ashes are buried beneath it. Usually fresh flowers are brought weekly. A bowl of sand is used to hold the incense stick that is lit at the beginning of each visit.
Kotsuage is the gathering of a person’s ashes. In the event that the bones do not burn completely, family members remove the bones with chopsticks and place them in the urn along with the ashes. This urn is then placed at the shrine for the services of the priest. Then it is removed and buried at the gravesite.
However, not all of the ashes are buried. During the bunkotsu stage, some ashes are given to close family members to put in the home shrines. One shrine, like the one above, may have the ashes of several ancestors. If the ashes are not passed down through the family, they will be returned to the grave.
Your statement about Buddhism is also not factual. Bodhidharma who was the founder of the Ch'an sect was buried in a known grave.
According to a 7th century account by Dàoxuān, Bodhidharma died at Luo River Beach, where he was interred by his disciple Huike, possibly in a cave. Soon after his death, someone supposedly witnessed Bodhidharma walking back towards India barefoot with a single shoe in hand. His grave was later exhumed, and according to legend, the only thing found in it was the shoe he left behind. Because of uncertainty about the precise physical location as well as ambiguity about what might be left of Bodhidharma at his burial site, no burial site has been venerated in the Zen tradition.
But this is a Zen (Ch'an) practice and not one specific to Buddhism. Bruce Lee for example was Buddhist and has a prominent grave.
And then there is the Buddha himself.
The Buddha's body was cremated and the relics were placed in monuments or stupas, some of which are believed to have survived until the present. For example, the Temple of the Tooth or Dalada Maligawa in Sri Lanka is the place where the right tooth relic of Buddha is kept at present.
There are also plenty of well documented Buddhist grave markers.
http://mantokujimauitemple.org/mantokuji-soto-zen-temple-galleries/buddhist-grave-markers-and-rainbow-ansel-adams/
At any rate, I think I'll let this one rest. If anything is to be accomplished, it's already been done and said. The debate is getting rather fine and will soon become one of nothing more than opinion.
Your statement about Buddhism is also not factual. Bodhidharma who was the founder of the Ch'an sect was buried in a known grave.
According to a 7th century account by Dàoxuān, Bodhidharma died at Luo River Beach, where he was interred by his disciple Huike, possibly in a cave. Soon after his death, someone supposedly witnessed Bodhidharma walking back towards India barefoot with a single shoe in hand. His grave was later exhumed, and according to legend, the only thing found in it was the shoe he left behind. Because of uncertainty about the precise physical location as well as ambiguity about what might be left of Bodhidharma at his burial site, no burial site has been venerated in the Zen tradition.
But this is a Zen (Ch'an) practice and not one specific to Buddhism. Bruce Lee for example was Buddhist and has a prominent grave.
And then there is the Buddha himself.
The Buddha's body was cremated and the relics were placed in monuments or stupas, some of which are believed to have survived until the present. For example, the Temple of the Tooth or Dalada Maligawa in Sri Lanka is the place where the right tooth relic of Buddha is kept at present.
There are also plenty of well documented Buddhist grave markers.
http://mantokujimauitemple.org/mantokuji-soto-zen-temple-galleries/buddhist-grave-markers-and-rainbow-ansel-adams/
At any rate, I think I'll let this one rest. If anything is to be accomplished, it's already been done and said. The debate is getting rather fine and will soon become one of nothing more than opinion.
I agree. I said Buddhists use marked graves.
And being simultaneously Buddhist, Japanese usually follow Buddhist traditions which mean a marked grave for the remains or ashes.
And with the Shinto stuff. I never said anything about there being no ashes or stuff in Shinto. But public burial (i.e. at a Shrine like we have been discussing) is not Shinto. Home shrines or in a gravesite.
He was no longer in charge. He had been recalled to Japan.
And do you think a mere general could challenge the uncle of the divine emperor?
Earlier you asserted he continued to issue orders so he must have been in charge even though he was in Japan. Now some rightfully question if he had "true authority" as you mentioned.
"The real nature of Matsui's authority is however difficult to establish as he was confronted with a member of the imperial family directly appointed by the Emperor."
He was still aware of the problem and did nothing. I don't buy that he was a powerless "patsy" and neither did anyone else during the war crimes trials. Certainly Asaka was the more guilty party and of course never charged.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Asaka_%28Yasuhiko%29#Role_in_the_Nanking_Massacre
As for Matsui AFTER Nanking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre#Matsui.27s_reaction_to_the_massacre
"I personally feel sorry for the tragedies to the people, but the Army must continue unless China repents."
So I think that says it all and HOPEFULLY I can leave this topic alone.
I agree. I said Buddhists use marked graves.
And with the Shinto stuff. I never said anything about there being no ashes or stuff in Shinto. But public burial (i.e. at a Shrine like we have been discussing) is not Shinto. Home shrines or in a gravesite.
Earlier it seemed you suggested otherwise.
As for the Shinto thing I'm not sure how "public burial" is the new discussion. You originally asserted that there were NO ASHES at Shrines and that is not the case.
And now, hopefully I can leave this thread alone.
It's almost 3am.
:sarcastic:
Earlier you asserted he continued to issue orders so he must have been in charge even though he was in Japan.
From the Wikipedia article, he was in charge (at least nominally as the Army commander though the commander of the unit in Nanking, the Prince, was the commander on the ground), but was sick during parts of it (when the atrocities started).
Afterwards he was recalled to Japan and retired.
Now some rightfully question if he had "true authority" as you mentioned.
"The real nature of Matsui's authority is however difficult to establish as he was confronted with a member of the imperial family directly appointed by the Emperor."
He was still aware of the problem and did nothing. I don't buy that he was a powerless "patsy" and neither did anyone else during the war crimes trials. Certainly Asaka was the more guilty party and of course never charged.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Asaka_%28Yasuhiko%29#Role_in_the_Nanking_Massacre
As for Matsui AFTER Nanking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre#Matsui.27s_reaction_to_the_massacre
"I personally feel sorry for the tragedies to the people, but the Army must continue unless China repents."
So I think that says it all and HOPEFULLY I can leave this topic alone.
I am not absolving him of all responsibility. I just said he was a tragic figure. He did not encourage, start, approve of, or push the actions. Could he have done more. Probably.
Earlier it seemed you suggested otherwise.
No, I said that there was not a public veneration of ashes in Shinto. As opposed to Buddhism, where public graves/grave markers are more prevalent.
As for the Shinto thing I'm not sure how "public burial" is the new discussion. You originally asserted that there were NO ASHES at Shrines and that is not the case.
We are specifically talking about Yasukuni shrine. Where according to many sources, there are no grave markers, no enshrined ashes, etc.
(which goes along with Shinto customs, it seems, which is for ashes to be given to families for them to entomb/enshrine/bury in their own local or family area/grave/way)
Certainly there are no ashes worshipped at Yasukuni. They specifically say they enshrine the "kami" (roughly spirit) of the dead.
I made no claims for all Shinto shrines.
And now, hopefully I can leave this thread alone.
It's almost 3am.
:sarcastic:
Certainly there are no ashes worshipped at Yasukuni.
That is not the case and your source that claims otherwise contained several other errors.
http://www.geraldinesherman.com/WarHeroes.html
The physical remains of several warriors have come home to Yasukuni as well, among them those of Hideki Tojo, general and wartime prime minister of Japan, who was hanged by the U.S. Army of Occupation in 1948 for war crimes.
Thirty years later, the urn containing his ashes was secretly transported to Yasukuni and housed, discreetly, in a part of the building known as the inner sanctum. "By this act of burial," the Tokyo Baedeker says, "Tojo has acquired the status of hotoke, beings who are godlike and deserving of reverence."
Being an intensely practical people, most Japanese choose not to dwell on the past. In fact, they ignore it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/30/world/middleeast/30body.html?pagewanted=print
Tojo, Japan’s leader during World War II, was unceremoniously cremated after going to the gallows. The location of the ashes was kept secret for nearly three decades, until the urn with his remains was secretly placed in the Yasukuni Shrine in Tokyo, where it remains today.
And your link is more credible than my links why?
And in fact, they are not really incompatible. There are no grave markers, and ashes are not enshrined there. Being placed in some inner sanctum, if true, does not invalidate those claims, since that act is not an official one enshrining the ashes nor does it change what is enshrined, or "worshipped" at the shrine, which are the "kami."
That is not the case and your source that claims otherwise contained several other errors.
http://www.geraldinesherman.com/WarHeroes.html
The physical remains of several warriors have come home to Yasukuni as well, among them those of Hideki Tojo, general and wartime prime minister of Japan, who was hanged by the U.S. Army of Occupation in 1948 for war crimes.
Thirty years later, the urn containing his ashes was secretly transported to Yasukuni and housed, discreetly, in a part of the building known as the inner sanctum. "By this act of burial," the Tokyo Baedeker says, "Tojo has acquired the status of hotoke, beings who are godlike and deserving of reverence."
Being an intensely practical people, most Japanese choose not to dwell on the past. In fact, they ignore it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/30/world/middleeast/30body.html?pagewanted=print
Tojo, Japan’s leader during World War II, was unceremoniously cremated after going to the gallows. The location of the ashes was kept secret for nearly three decades, until the urn with his remains was secretly placed in the Yasukuni Shrine in Tokyo, where it remains today.
And your link is more credible than my links why?
And in fact, they are not really incompatible. There are no grave markers, and ashes are not enshrined there. Being placed in some inner sanctum, if true, does not invalidate those claims, since that act is not an official one enshrining the ashes nor does it change what is enshrined, or "worshipped" at the shrine, which are the "kami."
Well the debate was are there any physical remains there. And just like sources for "official apologies" you can find many sources for the fact that physical remains are at Yasukuni.
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-25-12, 20:43
I just watched this movie on net flix. It sickend me to my very core, I can see why my gandfathers hated these people till the day they died.
Moose-Knuckle
05-25-12, 20:48
I just watched this movie on net flix. It sickend me to my very core, I can see why my gandfathers hated these people till the day they died.
My grandfather is 93 YOA (WWII vet) and still refuses to buy a Honda, Toyota, etc. . .
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-25-12, 21:11
My grandfather is 93 YOA (WWII vet) and still refuses to buy a Honda, Toyota, etc. . .
Sounds like my grandfathers to the T. This movie and the great raid were very hard for me to watch.
Belmont31R
05-25-12, 23:15
My grandfather is 93 YOA (WWII vet) and still refuses to buy a Honda, Toyota, etc. . .
I can understand vets not wanting to buy vehicles from their former enemies but former is the key word. Most of these companies were nationalized during WW2 and had no control over production. Most of these companies have zero to do with stuff from 70 years ago other than name.
Cesiumsponge
05-25-12, 23:16
Looks like wikipedia has a convenient collection for quick browsing. According to a historian:
If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4% chance of not surviving the war; [by comparison] the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30%.
According to the findings of the Tokyo Tribunal, the death rate among POWs from Asian countries, held by Japan was 27.1%. The death rate of Chinese POWs was much higher because—under a directive ratified on August 5, 1937 by Emperor Hirohito—the constraints of international law on treatment of those prisoners was removed. Only 56 Chinese POWs were released after the surrender of Japan. After March 20, 1943, the Japanese Navywas under orders to execute all prisoners taken at sea.
That is a pretty stark contrast between Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan on POW treatment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes
Sounds like my grandfathers to the T. This movie and the great raid were very hard for me to watch.
My grandfather held similar views even though he fought in Europe. He wasn't as ardent about it as his friends who fought in the Pacific but he had formed "definite opinions" on the matter.
The fact that I began the study of Japanese martial arts (complete with Shinto trappings and rituals) at an early age and later began the study of the language was always something of an adjustment for him.
He wanted to be proud but I'm sure he'd have preferred an interest in baseball. I never completely understood what I considered to be the "unreasonable" hatred many of them had for the Japanese, and I wouldn't understand until 9-11-2001.
For some reason Netflix on my TV won't play the subtitles. I can't figure it out, too bad it looks like a worthwhile flick.
I'm having the same problem. Trying to watch but no subtitles.
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