redacted

[VooDoo6Actual]

redacted.

[a0cake]

Wait, wait, wait...

1) They are arguing that the United States has been on a steady path of DISarmament for the last 50 years?

2) And furthermore, that a tiered, simultaneous, and steady draw-down in the amount of nuclear weapons that the United States and Russia have aimed at each other is a BAD thing? And the coinciding conventional force reduction was not necessary?

The first contention is patently false in a descriptive, explanatory, and constative sense (from a purely factual perspective with no moral judgement). Our defense budget has inflated wildly in the last 50 years, and capability along with it. US foreign policy makers have been more than willing to use this capability unilaterally, with no regard to the will of the UN, the organization which this theory argues it serves. The argument is irrational.

The second is normatively, judgmentally, and morally perplexing. Also, the post-cold war reduction in combat power (the number of fighter / bomber squadrons and armored units) was inevitable. That large of a force is economically unsustainable. It was a direct response to a direct threat at the time (the USSR). That specific threat has changed as have our forces. The buildup was a dual pronged approach, aiming first to counter the Soviet military threat and second to break them economically. It succeeded. There was no need to maintain that massive force. The arms race broke the Soviets economically; to continue it for no reason would have done the same to us. OF COURSE the size of our military was reduced.

Furthermore, you need to consider the historical context from which some of those quotes by former US officials were drawn from. They might seem sinister when solipsized into this theory, but viewed in light of the events of their time, they fall logically into the thinking of the time and the natural progression of world affairs. Remember that great hope was put in the UN. WW2 was much more recent history in the 1950's and 1960's. The world was desperate for it not to happen again, and the UN was seen as a way to prevent it. So, strong language in support of the UN is just indicative of the overall sentiment of the time. As times and the global dynamic changed, the UN's role has shifted. It is now a largely ineffective facilitator of international aid more than anything. Its security council resolutions have been de-legitimized and debased and are now more than ever relegated to being merely advisory and weakly suggestive. To argue that the organization it is acting as a usurper of power and military might just doesn't match reality. It is more irrelevant than ever.

[Moose-Knuckle]

- 1927
Congress passes a law banning the mailing of concealable weapons.

- 1934
The National Firearms Act of 1934 regulating fully automatic firearms, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, silencers, AOWs, etc. is approved by Congress.

- 1938
The Federal Firearms Act of 1938 places the first limitations on selling ordinary firearms. Persons selling guns are required to obtain a Federal Firearms License, at an annual cost of $1, and to maintain records of the name and address of persons to whom firearms are sold. Gun sales to persons convicted of violent felonies were prohibited.

- 1968
The Gun Control Act of 1968 - "...was enacted for the purpose of keeping firearms out of the hands of those not legally entitled to possess them because of age, criminal background, or incompetence." -- Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms The Act regulates imported guns, expands the gun-dealer licensing and record keeping requirements, and places specific limitations on the sale of handguns. The list of persons banned from buying guns is expanded to include persons convicted of any non-business related felony, persons found to be mentally incompetent, and users of illegal drugs.


- 1972
The Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms is created listing as part of its mission the control of illegal use and sale of firearms and the enforcement of Federal firearms laws. ATF issues firearms licenses and conducts firearms licensee qualification and compliance inspections.

- 1977
The District of Columbia enacts an anti-handgun law which also requires registration of all rifles and shotguns within the District of Columbia.

- 1986
The Armed Career Criminal Act (Public Law 99-570) increases penalties for possession of firearms by persons not qualified to own them under the Gun Control Act of 1986.

The Firearms Owners Protection Act (Public Law 99-308) relaxes some restrictions on gun and ammunition sales and establishes mandatory penalties for use of firearms during the commission of a crime.

The Law Enforcement Officers Protection Act (Public Law 99-408) bans possession of "cop killer" bullets capable of penetrating bulletproof clothing.

- 1986 - May
The Hughes Amendment (99th Congress, H.AMDT.777) prohibited the general public from possessing fully-auto firearms manufactured after May 19, 1986.

- 1989
California bans the possession of semiautomatic assault weapons following the massacre of five children on a Stockton, CA school playground.

- 1989 - July
The Bush Administration declared a permanent ban on all foreign-made semiautomatic assault rifles.

- 1990
The Crime Control Act of 1990 (Public Law 101-647) bans manufacturing and importing semiautomatic assault weapons in the U.S. "Gun-free school zones" are established carrying specific penalties for violations.

- 1994
The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (Public Law 103-159) imposes a five-day waiting period on the purchase of a handgun and requires that local law enforcement agencies conduct background checks on purchasers of handguns. (ATF's Brady Law web site.)

The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (Public Law 103-322) bans all sale, manufacture, importation, or possession of a number of specific types of assault weapons.

- 1997
The Supreme Court, in the case of Printz v. United States, declares the background check requirement of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act unconstitutional.

The Florida Supreme Court upholds a jury's $11.5 million verdict against Kmart for selling a gun to and intoxicated man who used the gun to shoot his estranged girlfriend.

Major American gun manufacturers voluntarily agree to include child safety trigger devices on all new handguns.

- 1998 - June
A Justice Department report indicates the blocking of some 69,000 handgun sales during 1977 while Brady Bill pre-sale background checks were required.

- 1998 - July
An amendment requiring a trigger lock mechanism to be included with every handgun sold in the U.S. is defeated in the Senate.

But, the Senate approves an amendment requiring gun dealers to have trigger locks available for sale and creating federal grants for gun safety and education programs.

- 1998 - October
New Orleans, LA becomes the first US city to file suit against gun makers, firearms trade associations, and gun dealers. The city's suit seeks recovery of costs attributed to gun-related violence.

- 1998 - November 12
Chicago, IL files a $433 million suit against local gun dealers and makers alleging that oversupplying local markets provided guns to criminals.

- 1998 - November 30
Permanent provisions of the Brady Act go into effect. Gun dealers are now required to initiate a pre-sale criminal background check of all gun buyers through the newly created National Instant Criminal Background Check (NICS) computer system.

- 1998 - December 1
The NRA files suit in federal court attempting to block the FBI's collection of information on firearm buyers.

- 1998 - December 5
President Clinton announces that the instant background check system had prevented 400 illegal gun purchases. The claim is called "misleading" by the NRA.

- 1999 - January
Civil suits against gun makers seeking to recover costs of gun-related violence are filed in Bridgeport, Connecticut and Miami-Dade County, Florida.

- 1999 - May 20
By a 51-50 vote, with the tie-breaker vote cast by Vice President Gore, the Senate passes a bill requiring trigger locks on all newly manufactured handguns and extending waiting period and background check requirements to sales of firearms at gun shows.

- 1999 - August 24
The Los Angeles County, CA Board of Supervisors votes 3 - 2 to ban the the Great Western Gun Show, billed as the "world's largest gun show" from the Pomona, CA fairgrounds where the show had been held for the last 30 years. (Typical Gun Show Rules& Regulations)

- 2000 - 2002
The independent, nonfederal Task Force on Community Preventive Services (the Task Force) is developing the Guide to Community Preventive Services (the Community Guide) with the support of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) in collaboration with the CDC and public and private partners found insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws or combinations of laws reviewed on violent outcomes.

- 2005 - September
New Orleans begins confiscating firearms via National Guard, Federal, State, and local Law Enforement.

[a0cake]

Okay, Moose, those are all egregious offenses. I'm with you on that. But they are largely unrelated to the discussion. The theory espoused in that article deals with military arms on an international level, not domestic gun control. You can argue, and rightfully so, that the UN has been a negative actor in regard to gun control and has tried to propagate anti-gun notions in its member nations. But that's not really what we're dealing with in regard to the context of the post. It is related in a weak-tie sense, but is far removed from the main subject area dealt with in the article, which is military budgets and international dynamics. Yes, everything is related, but we need to be able to discuss and understand individual circumstances on their own in order to synthesize them into a coherent belief. I'm just not seeing how the points you brought up have a strong bearing on the discussion, and I don't think that's because I lack knowledge or clarity on the subject matter. I just think those points are marginally relevant.

[Moose-Knuckle]

Okay, Moose, those are all egregious offenses. I'm with you on that. But they are largely unrelated to the discussion. The theory espoused in that article deals with military arms on an international level, not domestic gun control. You can argue, and rightfully so, that the UN has been a negative actor in regard to gun control and has tried to propagate anti-gun notions in its member nations. But that's not really what we're dealing with in regard to the context of the post. It is related in a weak-tie sense, but is far removed from the main subject area dealt with in the article, which is military budgets and international dynamics. Yes, everything is related, but we need to be able to discuss and understand individual circumstances on their own in order to synthesize them into a coherent belief. I'm just not seeing how the points you brought up have a strong bearing on the discussion, and I don't think that's because I lack knowledge or clarity on the subject matter. I just think those points are marginally relevant.

The OP mentioned disarmament dealings with both Republicans and Democrats on watch as far back as 1961. While I understand that the pdf. document provided deals with nation states laying down their weapons I see the axe coming for private ownership of small arms as well. They are killing two birds with one stone if you will. The point I'm making is that yes, both parties have done their fair share at picking away bit by bit at the 2nd Amendment and it goes back further than 1961. Combine this with the UNODA's (United Nations Office for Disarmament Affairs) proposed global “Small Arms Treaty” and you can start to connect the dots.

[a0cake]

The OP mentioned disarmament dealings with both Republicans and Democrats on watch as far back as 1961. While I understand that the pdf. document provided deals with nation states laying down their weapons I see the axe coming for private ownership of small arms as well. They are killing two birds with one stone if you will. The point I'm making is that yes, both parties have done their fair share at picking away bit by bit at the 2nd Amendment and it goes back further than 1961. Combine this with the UNODA's (United Nations Office for Disarmament Affairs) proposed global “Small Arms Treaty” and you can start to connect the dots.

Yep, I don't disagree. But that doesn't make the specific arguments espoused in the "American Thinker" article any more rational.

The overall trend toward global oppression may be real, but the way that they're arguing for it is deeply flawed. I think my original reply sufficiently refuted their claims, but I am open to considering opposition.

Freedom loving people would do well to properly understand the methods and mechanisms by which their freedom is being taken so as to be able to work against it. Blindly accepting claims simply because they resonate with and generally run alongside our position, even though they are irrational, is doing ourselves a disservice. It's the equivalent of receiving a harassing attack on the left flank, shifting all your forces to that side, then being overrun on the right. I'm not saying you or anyone specifically is guilty of this, but it's a general theme I've seen over time.

[Low Drag]

- 1927
Congress passes a law banning the mailing of concealable weapons.

- 1934
The National Firearms Act of 1934 regulating fully automatic firearms, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, silencers, AOWs, etc. is approved by Congress.

- 1938
The Federal Firearms Act of 1938 places the first limitations on selling ordinary firearms. Persons selling guns are required to obtain a Federal Firearms License, at an annual cost of $1, and to maintain records of the name and address of persons to whom firearms are sold. Gun sales to persons convicted of violent felonies were prohibited.

- 1968
The Gun Control Act of 1968 - "...was enacted for the purpose of keeping firearms out of the hands of those not legally entitled to possess them because of age, criminal background, or incompetence." -- Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms The Act regulates imported guns, expands the gun-dealer licensing and record keeping requirements, and places specific limitations on the sale of handguns. The list of persons banned from buying guns is expanded to include persons convicted of any non-business related felony, persons found to be mentally incompetent, and users of illegal drugs.


- 1972
The Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms is created listing as part of its mission the control of illegal use and sale of firearms and the enforcement of Federal firearms laws. ATF issues firearms licenses and conducts firearms licensee qualification and compliance inspections.

- 1977
The District of Columbia enacts an anti-handgun law which also requires registration of all rifles and shotguns within the District of Columbia.

- 1986
The Armed Career Criminal Act (Public Law 99-570) increases penalties for possession of firearms by persons not qualified to own them under the Gun Control Act of 1986.

The Firearms Owners Protection Act (Public Law 99-308) relaxes some restrictions on gun and ammunition sales and establishes mandatory penalties for use of firearms during the commission of a crime.

The Law Enforcement Officers Protection Act (Public Law 99-408) bans possession of "cop killer" bullets capable of penetrating bulletproof clothing.

- 1986 - May
The Hughes Amendment (99th Congress, H.AMDT.777) prohibited the general public from possessing fully-auto firearms manufactured after May 19, 1986.

- 1989
California bans the possession of semiautomatic assault weapons following the massacre of five children on a Stockton, CA school playground.

- 1989 - July
The Bush Administration declared a permanent ban on all foreign-made semiautomatic assault rifles.

- 1990
The Crime Control Act of 1990 (Public Law 101-647) bans manufacturing and importing semiautomatic assault weapons in the U.S. "Gun-free school zones" are established carrying specific penalties for violations.

- 1994
The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (Public Law 103-159) imposes a five-day waiting period on the purchase of a handgun and requires that local law enforcement agencies conduct background checks on purchasers of handguns. (ATF's Brady Law web site.)

The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (Public Law 103-322) bans all sale, manufacture, importation, or possession of a number of specific types of assault weapons.

- 1997
The Supreme Court, in the case of Printz v. United States, declares the background check requirement of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act unconstitutional.

The Florida Supreme Court upholds a jury's $11.5 million verdict against Kmart for selling a gun to and intoxicated man who used the gun to shoot his estranged girlfriend.

Major American gun manufacturers voluntarily agree to include child safety trigger devices on all new handguns.

- 1998 - June
A Justice Department report indicates the blocking of some 69,000 handgun sales during 1977 while Brady Bill pre-sale background checks were required.

- 1998 - July
An amendment requiring a trigger lock mechanism to be included with every handgun sold in the U.S. is defeated in the Senate.

But, the Senate approves an amendment requiring gun dealers to have trigger locks available for sale and creating federal grants for gun safety and education programs.

- 1998 - October
New Orleans, LA becomes the first US city to file suit against gun makers, firearms trade associations, and gun dealers. The city's suit seeks recovery of costs attributed to gun-related violence.

- 1998 - November 12
Chicago, IL files a $433 million suit against local gun dealers and makers alleging that oversupplying local markets provided guns to criminals.

- 1998 - November 30
Permanent provisions of the Brady Act go into effect. Gun dealers are now required to initiate a pre-sale criminal background check of all gun buyers through the newly created National Instant Criminal Background Check (NICS) computer system.

- 1998 - December 1
The NRA files suit in federal court attempting to block the FBI's collection of information on firearm buyers.

- 1998 - December 5
President Clinton announces that the instant background check system had prevented 400 illegal gun purchases. The claim is called "misleading" by the NRA.

- 1999 - January
Civil suits against gun makers seeking to recover costs of gun-related violence are filed in Bridgeport, Connecticut and Miami-Dade County, Florida.

- 1999 - May 20
By a 51-50 vote, with the tie-breaker vote cast by Vice President Gore, the Senate passes a bill requiring trigger locks on all newly manufactured handguns and extending waiting period and background check requirements to sales of firearms at gun shows.

- 1999 - August 24
The Los Angeles County, CA Board of Supervisors votes 3 - 2 to ban the the Great Western Gun Show, billed as the "world's largest gun show" from the Pomona, CA fairgrounds where the show had been held for the last 30 years. (Typical Gun Show Rules& Regulations)

- 2000 - 2002
The independent, nonfederal Task Force on Community Preventive Services (the Task Force) is developing the Guide to Community Preventive Services (the Community Guide) with the support of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) in collaboration with the CDC and public and private partners found insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws or combinations of laws reviewed on violent outcomes.

- 2005 - September
New Orleans begins confiscating firearms via National Guard, Federal, State, and local Law Enforement.

Is there a good list giving the run down of shall issue CCW laws being enacted and the sunset of the AWB?

[a0cake]

HOPLOETHOS, do you have any counter-points? You're a smart guy and clearly something made you think the article / theory had some truth to it, or else you probably wouldn't have posted it. I'm curious what that is.