View Full Version : 300 BLK as first/only rifle?
So I've been thinking recently that it is time to go ahead and get my first rifle, indeed, it is probably long overdue. I've felt for a long time that is is every American's civic duty to own and be proficient with one, and now that I more or less have my pistol squared away (still need more range time, but who doesn't?) it is time to make it happen. I've spent some time searching through the rifle fora here, and have a couple more weeks before I'll have the scratch together for the purchase to keep researching and think it over some more.
Realistically, whatever rifle I get will likely be my only rifle for some time, though I would like to add a bolt gun down the road. Between my job and my health, range time can be hard to come by. I don't expect to do much if any shooting past 100 meters, so planning to focus on iron sight proficiency. My experience with shooting rifles is limited to those owned by friends: one AK-47, a SPR, and a suppressed SBR. I preferred the ergonomics and functionality of the ARs, and while shooting suppressed is nice, with the substantial costs and ATF hassles I am more inclined to a 16" Recce. Budget is preferably around $1500, but up to $2000 for the rifle, which will leave money for mags and ammo and such. I'm in AZ, and I'd like to get to Gunsite for some carbine and pistol courses, health and time permitting.
The logical side of my brain says get a Colt AR6720, a stack of PMAGs, and a truckload of ammo. Or if I have to have a Noveske or similar, keep it to a basic one in 5.56 within the budget.
The other side of my brain is seriously coveting 300 BLK. Between DD and Noveske there are good options within the budget. Given the easy interchangeability of 5.56 and 300 BLK, my primary hesitation over 300 BLK is the cost of practice ammo, which as of this writing is still quite a bit lower on 5.56, with a smaller difference with defense loadings. Given that I won't be shooting heavy volumes it is probably not a huge deal, but still that money ain't growin' on my lawn.
I'd originally wanted a 7.62 NATO for whatever reason, probably the old mouse gun prejudice (mostly over that now, past the big bore/magnum mania and now carry a 9mm), but of course good rifles in that caliber are way over budget and the ammo is costly. Having always wanted an AR, 300 BLK seems an excellent midpoint especially considering the ranges I'll be shooting at, and of course if for whatever reason I'm not happy with it 5.56 is just a barrel change away. So I've been flopping back and forth between 5.56 and 300 BLK for at least a week, but can't come to a clear decision. So would it be crazy to go 300 BLK for a first and only rifle? Or, life's too short -- go for it?
I would purchase an AR in .223 first, the ammo is much more widely available and affordable. You can always purchase a .300 BLK upper in the near future. I just think it is a better idea to have a .223 first, then focus on the specialized round.
Just my .02
thehammer69
05-28-12, 16:59
I agree with Slopes. Start off simple and use .223/5.56 which you can easily acquire, especially if SHTF. you can always throw the 300blk upper on later.
Yep, your logical side has the right idea ;)
I love my 300blk, but wouldnt want it as my first or only rifle.
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It is not crazy, because, as you said - if you change your mind you can get a 5.56mm barrel.
If you did you would not be the first person to get 300 BLK as a first rifle.
i would go with a 5.56/223 caliber gun first. that way the training and range ammo is cheaper and more readily available while you train ad become proficient with your new rifle.
i do agree with you that all americans should own and be proficient with a military rifle. thats the basis of the 2nd ammendment to me. that said, you already have a 9mm and the 5.56 would give you the 2 calibers most prevalent in the military today.
now from that basic pair, i would branch out as you see fit but my glock 17 and 5.56 carbine are the last two i would ever get rid of. the 40/45/10mm/etc... and .300AAC/6.8/.308/etc will come later for a perceived need based on your actual experience. inside 100 yards, there is not much any can do better than the other. thats close range in my book so the lighter and faster cartridge will be easier to shoot as well as cheaper.
300 BLK as first/only rifle?
no...
I concur with the recommendations to start with .223/5.56. Also, the only person in this thread so far suggesting you get the 300BLK stands to gain from that monetarily.
Let me put it another way. Three months ago my friend asked me the same question. I said to get 5.56mm for your first rifle. He ignored me and got 300 BLK. I learned from that. I learned to listen and read between the lines a little at what someone really wants.
Ghostmaker
05-28-12, 20:45
I vote no too.
5.56mm.........
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Nightvisionary
05-28-12, 20:55
Getting your only rifle in an exotic caliber that cannot readily be purchased locally and is commonly in short supply online seems like a pretty unwise choice.
To be honest with the OP, the 300 would not be a bad choice given your limiting factors. I have had my share of health problems too.
But I could not in good conscious say get it as your first. Money, time, logistics of each and health? It is a bitch. But let me give you a reverse of your argument. A 300 BLK is a barrel change away. Steel case 223 is cheap.
I'm really liking both, it is still your decision. Hint, if you plan on shooting a lot of 300, reload. Much cheaper.
ETA: 300 BLK is made for subsonic/suppressed shooting. If you are not going to put out for the tax stamp and the can you might be better off with 223/5.56.
ETA: 300 BLK is made for subsonic/suppressed shooting. If you are not going to put out for the tax stamp and the can you might be better off with 223/5.56.
It was less the cost of the tax stamp and wait time that dissuaded me, than the sticker shock of suppressor prices running from just under $1k up to $2k. So my only interest in 300 BLK would be in supersonic from a 16 inch barrel.
Steel case 223 is cheap.
Now that is surely a benefit to many people, but not for everyone. I have never bought steel-cased 223 in my life, as far as I can remember. The cheapest 5.56mm ammo I buy is XM193 or Q3131/Q3131A.
Getting your only rifle in an exotic caliber that cannot readily be purchased locally and is commonly in short supply online seems like a pretty unwise choice.
Right, because when the Mayan calendar prophecy comes true, you will be able to go into your safe, take out those gold coins you saved for when the world falls apart, and trade them for a case of 223 ammo whereas if you only had a 300 BLK rifle would would have needed to think of ordering what you will need in advance.
ETA: 300 BLK is made for subsonic/suppressed shooting. If you are not going to put out for the tax stamp and the can you might be better off with 223/5.56.
300 BLK is made to shoot 30 caliber from an AR15. In fact, it is the most powerful way to do so which retains 30 rounds capacity in normal magazines. It no more needs a suppressor than a 30-30 or 7.62x39mm does.
I vote no. If you find you really need a .30 caliber bullet it's all to easy to buy another upper and have commonality between the two.
Get a good 5.56 rifle shoot it and then decide if you need the new "hotness"
2 people have suggested the .300blkout, 1 of them being R&D for AAC, what does that tell you? He's supposed to think that .300 is for everyone. I'm not implying to you to follow the lemmings of 5.56, but it makes sense to get the standard for the AR platform, then decide if you want new "hotness".
ETA: not meaning the lemmings metaphor to demean any 5.56 shooters, just a herd mentality, in this case it makes perfect sense to follow the herd. poor metaphor
Most people are going to say 5.56mm - and for good reason - it is more common and less expensive. These are the same reasons that have always been given to buy a PC over a Mac. Think Different.
carolvs
Do you reload? If not I'd not have the 300 Blk as your first and only rifle. Cause unfortunately the 300 Blk is so new the ammo stream hasn't caught up with demand and ammo is hard to find and is not cheap. Also unfortunately for you your into to the election rush on regular 5.56mm AR's as well and prices for them and ammo if you can find it are going up. So reloading for the 5.56mm is also going to be a must soon as the price of ammo for it will get stupid exspensive as well.:rolleyes:
This is cheap enough for, far from everyone, but for many many people to not bother to reload:
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2AACO102860-1.html
Most people are going to say 5.56mm - and for good reason - it is more common and less expensive. These are the same reasons that have always been given to buy a PC over a Mac. Think Different.
this. i have pc's but my primary unit is a mac. i have a glock but my primary carry/training/competition unit is hk or my sa pro. i have a 5.56 ar but my primary is a .300blk. in fact, every time i use something other than my primary it reinforces my choice.
to the op, if the caliber's design objective and the rifle platform fits your needs go for it. shoot it as much as you can and have fun with it.
Now that is surely a benefit to many people, but not for everyone. I have never bought steel-cased 223 in my life, as far as I can remember. The cheapest 5.56mm ammo I buy is XM193 or Q3131/Q3131A.
Likewise, steel cased ammo will never touch one of my guns. I pretty much buy all of my ammo online, and looking at prices of 5.56 practice ammo that I would buy, the price difference shrinks a bit more vs Rem UMC. But it is true that half the dealers I checked don't carry 300 BLK at all yet. OTOH the recommended 5.56 defensive loads seem as scarce as hen's teeth.
I'm not a reloader. New factory ammo only for me, preferably by the case. Remington needs a 500 round case for their 300 BLK UMC.
Nightvisionary
05-29-12, 02:57
Right, because when the Mayan calendar prophecy comes true, you will be able to go into your safe, take out those gold coins you saved for when the world falls apart, and trade them for a case of 223 ammo whereas if you only had a 300 BLK rifle would would have needed to think of ordering what you will need in advance.
:rolleyes:
I'll have to jump on the boat here and say no to the 300 as your first. :mad:
get a nicely used 5.56 first use it a while, you can get a nice colt for 1k, I say this because they are bout 1100 on gunbroker 6920 new looking around 370 1k of ammo, well within your budget.
build up skill then you can move on if you feel you need to. ;)
You menion your health and the 5.56 is very light and forgiving provided you have quality hearing protection. ;)
Cost and avail of ammo is important,
buy 1000 rds and go to the range, use bout a 100 at a time, bout once a week
I say only 100 per trip so that you will focus on every shot and not just blast and blast away needlessly. :nono:
once you see little results you will be motivated to do better and better:D
use 60% inside 50m build speed, double taps get to now the weapon
and the other 40% at 100m
do this for sure prior to moving on to 300. 6.8, 308
you will probably want something else by the time you do all of this;)
You will not lose any money going this route except the transfer fee and shipping cost of the weapon
and you can sell the weapon easily for 100 less than what you paid for it if you get a lightly used one
just my thoughts, in the end do what you really want you'll be happy
but give others ideas some thought but don't let them decide for you if you really want the 300
An AR15 in 300 BLK offers some interesting options for the future.
The AR15's 5.56 cartridge was designed for a 20" barrel, and as you go shorter the blast gets significantly greater.
If you decide you want to try suppression it's hard to get less than 132db, subsonic cartridges are not widely available, and there are questions as to their ability to be reliably stabilized.
The AR15 in 300 BLK is commonly sold in as short as an 8" barrel, and since the powder charge of subsonic is about that of 9mm, you could easily go shorter than 16" to a more manageable SBR without much blast.
Suppression of 126db or less is possible, compare this to 132db being perceived as about twice as loud, based on a doubling every 6 to 10db.
A can for a 9mm handgun can be used for a 300 BLK AR15, splitting the cost between the two.
Wouldn't it be fun to be able to hear the ringing of a metal target over the whoosh from the rifle, while on a more serious topic, preserving your hearing in a home defense situation with your handgun?
Rsilvers, I'm not disrepecting the company or products. But if your finding brass 223/5.56 for around 200 a thousand, please PM me where.
And when I said made for suppressed/subsonic, I was trying to compliment you and the team at AAC for the work you all did making a round so easy to suppress/make subsonic. I researched this pretty carefully before I made up my mind to step into 300 blackout. It's going to do everthing I want it to do, but I don't think it's for everyone.
SomeOtherGuy
05-29-12, 09:31
All of us commenting are making some assumptions about what you want to do, and then unavoidably having our biases affect it as well.
If you want to do what most here view as typical - practice frequently, take multiple classes a year, etc., probably going through at least 5-10k rounds a year, then 5.56 is the only way to go, even if you have a lot of money (though if you're a billionaire I suppose it doesn't matter). If you go to classes and ever run out of ammo, someone can probably give or sell you decent .223, but it's relatively unlikely someone will have a spare case of 300BLK in their car. And of course the whole roving zombie apocalypse thing.
But if you will only realistically shoot 1-2k rounds a year (or less) due to whatever limitations, then the cost gap shrinks significantly. I'm currently seeing brass cased .223 starting at 30-35 cents/rd and 300BLK UMC is down to around 55 cents/rd. I have yet to see 300BLK in a retail store, but have had no problem at all getting it by mail order from various sources. Since everything other than the barrel is the same, there are no issues with mags, spare parts, etc. like you would have with most other alternative calibers.
The 5.56 is definitely a more economical and lower recoil way to go, but if you aren't going to shoot a whole lot and just really want the 300BLK, go for it.
...my primary hesitation over 300 BLK is the cost of practice ammo...
If you think the cost of ammo will be the limiting factor for training with your carbine the 5.56 would be a better choice. The training is going to matter more than the caliber if you do need to use your carbine defensively.
If you really want the 300 BLK and time is your main limiting factor for training, it's not so bad to do what you want. I don't think the cost of training ammo being the only factor would go over well in the pistol section if I told everyone with a 40 or 45 they chose wrong...
I have zero problems with the recoil of 7.62x39, I just didn't care for the ergonomics and design of the AK. Also didn't care for the build quality.
If you think the cost of ammo will be the limiting factor for training with your carbine the 5.56 would be a better choice. The training is going to matter more than the caliber if you do need to use your carbine defensively.
If you really want the 300 BLK and time is your main limiting factor for training, it's not so bad to do what you want. I don't think the cost of training ammo being the only factor would go over well in the pistol section if I told everyone with a 40 or 45 they chose wrong...
Time is really going to be the biggest limit. Even when I was on vacation recently I wanted to get to the range 3x, but due to circumstances only got there once. Whatever rifle I get I'll probably only be shooting a couple thousand rounds a year.
I used to carry 10mm (until my Glock 29 kaboomed), so believe me I know what expensive practice ammo is. 10mm costs more than 5.56, but I've gotten a little spoiled by 9mm since then. ;) Given the amount I expect to shoot and the falling price of UMC vs the price of quality 5.56 FMJ, practice ammo cost isn't as big an issue as I initially thought.
sandsunsurf
05-29-12, 12:45
I'm pretty in love with .300blk, and as an example, for memorial day weekend I went camping with a dozen friends. I brought two SBR lowers, each with a .300 blk upper (8" and 12"). I brought two other uppers in 5.56- an 11.5" and a 10" Sig piston that I just got from a friend and haven't shot yet. I also brought my standard 16" everyday carry rifle.
The only two that got shot were the .300blk. Only a couple hundred rounds, but I didn't even attach the 5.56 uppers, not even the one I've never shot. And only one of my blk uppers has a mount for my can, so the 8" was being shot unsupressed.
I guess the point of my long story is that .300blk is fun to shoot, hits steel with a nice smack, and ammo costs even when letting other people shoot it don't really matter. I say if you want .300blk then do it!
I REALLY need to just start a 300BLK build. Noveske's 8" barrels are back in stock now on their site - this was a mental barrier for me, now that they're back in stock and CTD's got loads of cheap 300BLK, I really no longer have an excuse, LOL.
Sorry to sidetrack - What have been some of the problems with PMAGs & 300BLK? Do folks just file down the ribs inside the mag body? Is it mandatory? Only if you have issues? Do all PMAGs have problems? Better to just use USGI mags?
The logical side of my brain says get a Colt AR6720, a stack of PMAGs, and a truckload of ammo.Do that, then. Every time I ignore the logical side of my brain... I lose money, friends or blood.
SomeOtherGuy
05-29-12, 13:50
Sorry to sidetrack - What have been some of the problems with PMAGs & 300BLK? Do folks just file down the ribs inside the mag body? Is it mandatory? Only if you have issues? Do all PMAGs have problems? Better to just use USGI mags?
Who says there are problems with Pmags and 300BLK? I've been using exclusively unmodified Pmags with my two 300BLK uppers and have not had a single malfunction with either one. Properly designed ammo has the bullet contacting the guide rib at the right spot to keep everything lined up. I've used UMC, PNW Arms, and Gunn ammo.
Some handloaders looking to use bullets of a poor shape for the 300BLK may want to remove ribs from a Pmag, but for anyone using factory ammo OR recommended handloads that is not necessary and may in fact reduce reliability.
Who says there are problems with Pmags and 300BLK? I've been using exclusively unmodified Pmags with my two 300BLK uppers and have not had a single malfunction with either one. Properly designed ammo has the bullet contacting the guide rib at the right spot to keep everything lined up. I've used UMC, PNW Arms, and Gunn ammo.
Some handloaders looking to use bullets of a poor shape for the 300BLK may want to remove ribs from a Pmag, but for anyone using factory ammo OR recommended handloads that is not necessary and may in fact reduce reliability.
Good to know.
Well CRAP - Looks like between Saturday and right now Noveske's 8" barrels are GONE again. Ok, I take that back - they are in stock. WTF - I just need to call and grab one.
Sure why not! I pretty much only shoot my 300blk platforms now. 5.56 sit in the safes.
Suwannee Tim
05-29-12, 16:28
I have been shooting a long time and have answered this question many times: "For general purpose use should I buy a general purpose weapon in a general purpose caliber or a special purpose weapon and / or special purpose caliber?" The answer is always the same, general purpose weapon in a general purpose caliber. I can't remember anyone I advised going against my advice and not regretting it and I can remember many. 7mm magnum versus 308, 22 magnum versus 22 LR, 44 magnum versus 357 magnum, 300 magnum versus 30-06, the last two examples being me. I knew I was making a mistake and I talked myself into it anyway. If you reload the 300 AAC would be a mistake, if you don't reload it would be a big mistake.
RogerinTPA
05-29-12, 18:29
Until the 300BLK becomes more mainstream than the 6.8SPC, because quite frankly it will take a decade or two to be as ubiquitous as 5.56 ammo, a 5.56 gun is my recommendation. Only time will tell if the 300BLK will continue trending upwards or start a downward spiral, and settle in as another niche cartridge, like all the other calibers that tried to take the 5.56s place.
Until the 300BLK becomes more mainstream than the 6.8SPC
It is not already?
It was less the cost of the tax stamp and wait time that dissuaded me, than the sticker shock of suppressor prices running from just under $1k up to $2k. So my only interest in 300 BLK would be in supersonic from a 16 inch barrel.
I don't know where you shop but, there are a lot of ~$600 suppressors that work fine with subsonic loads. Myself, an SWR Trident 9, and some subsonic ammo are where it's at.
If you want exotic, go with a 338 Spectre. ~$10.50 a box from CTD, 300 Blackout is not that expensive. Heck, 30-30 runs me ~$15 a box so, maybe I should start shooting more 300 Blackout.
Sure why not! I pretty much only shoot my 300blk platforms now. 5.56 sit in the safes.
I guess the point of my long story is that .300blk is fun to shoot, hits steel with a nice smack, and ammo costs even when letting other people shoot it don't really matter. I say if you want .300blk then do it!
I agree The blackout is plain more fun...and it's great shoving 30 cals into the magazine.
Remington needs a 500 round case for their 300 BLK UMC.
I have a Buddy that gave me this web address on Mon. It's where he shops out of stock now but......http://www.targetsportsusa.com/p-3364-remington-umc-300-aac-blackout-115-grain-full-metal-jacket-ammunition.aspx
Until the 300BLK becomes more mainstream than the 6.8SPC, because quite frankly it will take a decade or two to be as ubiquitous as 5.56 ammo, a 5.56 gun is my recommendation. Only time will tell if the 300BLK will continue trending upwards or start a downward spiral, and settle in as another niche cartridge, like all the other calibers that tried to take the 5.56s place.
The only thing harder to find then 6.8SPC is 6.5 Grendel. After putting up with limited supplies of 6.5 Grendel the mainstream popularity of the 300 Blackout made it an easy choice.
I don't know where you shop but, there are a lot of ~$600 suppressors that work fine with subsonic loads. Myself, an SWR Trident 9, and some subsonic ammo are where it's at.
I was looking at prices at the AAC and Surefire websites.
Hehuhates
Thanks for the link- finally a good price for subs- ordered a case of 220 Rems. I've been wanting to give them a try in my 16" unsurpressed just for fun. :D If it don't like em I can alway demil them and use the bullets in my '06. Restuff the brass with super loads.:D
Jester67CA
05-30-12, 02:40
I'm going to echo the "no" opinions.
I know a guy who has a 6.8SPC as his first and only AR. It sits at home for most of his range trips because it's just too expensive for him to shoot.
400rds of Wolf .223 can be had for less than $.25 per round.
200rds of Remington .300BLK costs around $.70 per round and is more difficult to find in bulk.
These are not exhaustively researched. I simply checked AIM Surplus for Wolf and the suppliers sticky in this section.
Even if you don't have the time to shoot often, you wallet will feel the difference.
I was looking at prices at the AAC and Surefire websites.Top performing 9mm suppressors that can also be used with 300 BLK subsonic include;
AAC Ti-RANT (can be disassembled) - $850, see 300 BLK test at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv_RdusKYuw
Silencerco Osprey - $850, see 300 BLK test at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qkJxXmvj6w
SWR Octane HD (can be disassembled, full auto rated) - $700, see 300 BLK test at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w46Tnh_rGdg
This is cheap enough for, far from everyone, but for many many people to not bother to reload:
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2AACO102860-1.html
Page two of this thread, under $.70 per round.
Cost isn't prohibitive at all and availability gets better almost daily. I reload 85% of my .556 I order 10-12% of the remaining 15 so local availability doesn't mean anything to me.
Page two of this thread under $.70 per round.At http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2AACO102860-1.html the base cost before shipping is $.52 each.
I'm going to echo the "no" opinions.
I know a guy who has a 6.8SPC as his first and only AR. It sits at home for most of his range trips because it's just too expensive for him to shoot.
400rds of Wolf .223 can be had for less than $.25 per round.
200rds of Remington .300BLK costs around $.70 per round and is more difficult to find in bulk.
These are not exhaustively researched. I simply checked AIM Surplus for Wolf and the suppliers sticky in this section.
Even if you don't have the time to shoot often, you wallet will feel the difference.
I understand your low cost point, but you have to also point out that the remington umc which can be had for $.54 per round( http://cheaperthandirtgunsllc.org/2AACO102860-1.html) is not crappy ass steal cased wolf ammo which some people refuse to shoot no matter how cheap it is
Easy to tell who has an intrest in the 300blkout.....
Get a 5.56mm.
Nightvisionary
05-30-12, 20:59
I have been shooting a long time and have answered this question many times: "For general purpose use should I buy a general purpose weapon in a general purpose caliber or a special purpose weapon and / or special purpose caliber?" The answer is always the same, general purpose weapon in a general purpose caliber. I can't remember anyone I advised going against my advice and not regretting it and I can remember many. 7mm magnum versus 308, 22 magnum versus 22 LR, 44 magnum versus 357 magnum, 300 magnum versus 30-06, the last two examples being me. I knew I was making a mistake and I talked myself into it anyway. If you reload the 300 AAC would be a mistake, if you don't reload it would be a big mistake.
Very well said.
Nightvisionary
05-30-12, 21:20
It is not already? I would say at this point no.
I can stop at my local Bi-mart variety store when I need to find ammo for my 50 BMG rifle and Japanese Type 99 rifle in 7.7 Jap. When I can do the same with 300 BLK I would consider that a commonly used main stream cartridge.
The 41 Action Express was almost mainstream too which is about where the 300 blackout is right now.
TangoSauce
05-31-12, 00:37
Ballistics is not sufficient for an all purpose rifle. If you are building a SBR, it's a good choice.
Edit to OP: I'm not sure why you'd want to limit yourself to 100 meters with an AR, but if you are putting that restriction on your choice 300BLK would be adequate. A 5.56 is still a better choice for many reasons including cost, ammo availability, ability to shoot longer range with 77 grain match, etc.
I would say at this point no.
I can stop at my local Bi-mart variety store when I need to find ammo for my 50 BMG rifle and Japanese Type 99 rifle in 7.7 Jap. When I can do the same with 300 BLK I would consider that a commonly used main stream cartridge.
I did not say it had overtaken military cartridges in availability. I asked if it had not yet passed 6.8.
The 41 Action Express was almost mainstream too which is about where the 300 blackout is right now.
There were 110 companies who were on board with 41 Action Express? I bet there were about a dozen.
OP- based on your initial post, I would say no as you used or referred to the word budget at least twice. I think it is the case that 300 BLK is quickly become the alternative AR15 caliber of choice from a practical and cost standpoint, but ammo availability is nowhere near as prolific as .223/5.56 and is roughly 40%+ more expensive.
If you are wanting to shoot suppressed/subsonic, employing a short barrel or considering hunting, then it may be a viable alternative. Additionally, if you're the type of person that orders large amounts of ammo online and manages your ammo inventory well, then availability may not be as much of a concern.
My recommendation would be to get the standard fare for now, shoot and train with it for a while and then if you decide you want a 300 BLK, either rebarrel it or get another upper.
OP- based on your initial post, I would say no as you used or referred to the word budget at least twice. I think it is the case that 300 BLK is quickly become the alternative AR15 caliber of choice from a practical and cost standpoint, but ammo availability is nowhere near as prolific as .223/5.56 and is roughly 40%+ more expensive.
If you are wanting to shoot suppressed/subsonic, employing a short barrel or considering hunting, then it may be a viable alternative. Additionally, if you're the type of person that orders large amounts of ammo online and manages your ammo inventory well, then availability may not be as much of a concern.
My recommendation would be to get the standard fare for now, shoot and train with it for a while and then if you decide you want a 300 BLK, either rebarrel it or get another upper.
Excellent advice.
Suwannee Tim
05-31-12, 05:23
Easy to tell who has an intrest in the 300blkout.....
For the record, last week I bought a 300 AAC 12.5 inch upper which is languishing in my buddy's safe pending my SBR application. I also put a deposit on an AAC 7.62-SDN-6 can. Over the next few months I'll buy dies and lay in a supply of ammo and brass. I can't wait! I guess I'll have too.:mad:
Until then I plan to literally wear out a 5.45 barrel. Shooting cool is great. Shooting a lot is greater.
Get a 5.56 then get a S&W MP-15-22.
pentosinjunkie
05-31-12, 06:01
Given your budget and general situation I vote for a Noveske N4 medium contour midlength in 5.56x45mm. It's a pretty well-kitted-out platform from a manufacturer that is serious about their QC and more in step with modern AR evolution than Colt.
Everything you need (except a middie MOE handguard), nothing you don't, and unlike a 6920 you don't have to move around legacy parts (that nobody wants, except maybe the carry handle) to build out a more functional rifle.
I can't view the OP's initial post from here, so I don't know where he lives. Here, in MD, a base 6920 is $1200-1300, a 6940 is $1600. My LGS has one of these N4s for $1550 (before negotiation) and I'm sorely tempted to ditch my problem child M6-SL for one. (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=lrb-556&cat=138&page=1&search=&since=&status=&title=)
Just make sure if you get a 5.56mm rifle, to get a good one. A Colt, Noveske, or KAC SR15E3 are my preferences.
Ballistics is not sufficient for an all purpose rifle.
The OP is looking for a defensive carbine to shoot with iron sights.
constructor
05-31-12, 12:15
As a first and only rifle I would go for the 556 for sure, IMO the only logical choice. There will always be ammo for it, surplus and cheap in many different loadings.
Everyone makes parts, uppers and rifles reloading equipt and supplies.
Realistically, whatever rifle I get will likely be my only rifle for some time, though I would like to add a bolt gun down the road. Between my job and my health, range time can be hard to come by. I don't expect to do much if any shooting past 100 meters, so planning to focus on iron sight proficiency. My experience with shooting rifles is limited to those owned by friends: one AK-47, a SPR, and a suppressed SBR. I preferred the ergonomics and functionality of the ARs, and while shooting suppressed is nice, with the substantial costs and ATF hassles I am more inclined to a 16" Recce. Budget is preferably around $1500, but up to $2000 for the rifle, which will leave money for mags and ammo and such. I'm in AZ, and I'd like to get to Gunsite for some carbine and pistol courses, health and time permitting.
$1500~$2000 will get you a top of line AR-15 so, shop a lot and buy the right rifle the first time. A Noveske N4 for a 5.56 option would be hard to beat but, there are other top tier choices out their.
The logical side of my brain says get a Colt AR6720, a stack of PMAGs, and a truckload of ammo. Or if I have to have a Noveske or similar, keep it to a basic one in 5.56 within the budget.
A Noveske N4 really is a lot more rifle for the money and "more bang for the buck" then a Colt. The mid-length gas on their 16" model is nice as well.
The other side of my brain is seriously coveting 300 BLK. Between DD and Noveske there are good options within the budget. Given the easy interchangeability of 5.56 and 300 BLK, my primary hesitation over 300 BLK is the cost of practice ammo, which as of this writing is still quite a bit lower on 5.56, with a smaller difference with defense loadings. Given that I won't be shooting heavy volumes it is probably not a huge deal, but still that money ain't growin' on my lawn.
If you are not hoarding large quantities of ammuntion for the next psuedo-crisis or prepper hysteria crisis, buying a 6.5Grendel, 6.8SPC, 5.56, 300 AAC Blackout, 308Win, etc. really isn't a factor for most people. $0.50~$1.00 a round for most reputable "similar" loadings. Don't compare surplus steel cased corrosive costs against new manufacture quality training or defensive loads - they are just too dissimilar to be meaningful unless you are really shooting high volumes on a regualar basis.
I'd originally wanted a 7.62 NATO for whatever reason, probably the old mouse gun prejudice (mostly over that now, past the big bore/magnum mania and now carry a 9mm), but of course good rifles in that caliber are way over budget and the ammo is costly. Having always wanted an AR, 300 BLK seems an excellent midpoint especially considering the ranges I'll be shooting at, and of course if for whatever reason I'm not happy with it 5.56 is just a barrel change away. So I've been flopping back and forth between 5.56 and 300 BLK for at least a week, but can't come to a clear decision. So would it be crazy to go 300 BLK for a first and only rifle? Or, life's too short -- go for it?
How much will you shoot in a year? For a non-LEO/non-MIL civilian, a hundered rounds of ammo for a single defensive ecounter is a lot. If you want to extend the scenario to Katrina or post-tornado extended no power, food and gas shortage scenarios, how much more do you really need? 200? Would you feel safe with 500?
500 rounds of 300 AAC Blackout UMC is still under ~$300 which is within reach for most people, if not all at once, spread out over time.
In terms of an only rifle, the only thing really going for a 5.56 is the military association. 6.5G, 6.8SPC, 300 AAC Blackout have all demonstrated advantages for non-MIL usuage. Whether it's LEO's needing to penetrate car winshields or, a civilian out during Deer season, there is a lot of merit for "up gunning" your AR-15.
I can't view the OP's initial post from here, so I don't know where he lives. Here, in MD, a base 6920 is $1200-1300, a 6940 is $1600. My LGS has one of these N4s for $1550 (before negotiation) and I'm sorely tempted to ditch my problem child M6-SL for one. (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=lrb-556&cat=138&page=1&search=&since=&status=&title=)
Arizona. 6920s are around $1100 to $1200, a bit more for the MOE versions.
Arizona. 6920s are around $1100 to $1200, a bit more for the MOE versions.
Find a local pawn shop or FFL that will do transfers for ~$20-40 and buy direct from Noveske and save sales tax. It will still cost you a little more but, it is a better rifle. If you get the LEO/MIL/etc. discount, buy direct and save even more.
It is not already?
Yes it is. Which is why I went with the .300 blk for my first build and first AR. Yes ammo still costs more and is harder to find than the 5.56 but most nicer things are :dirol: That being said my next build will start with an upper in 5.56 so I can shoot more. In the mean time I hope to get set up reloading.
Realistically, whatever rifle I get will likely be my only rifle for some time, though I would like to add a bolt gun down the road. Between my job and my health, range time can be hard to come by. I don't expect to do much if any shooting past 100 meters, so planning to focus on iron sight proficiency. My experience with shooting rifles is limited to those owned by friends: one AK-47, a SPR, and a suppressed SBR. I preferred the ergonomics and functionality of the ARs, and while shooting suppressed is nice, with the substantial costs and ATF hassles I am more inclined to a 16" Recce. Budget is preferably around $1500, but up to $2000 for the rifle, which will leave money for mags and ammo and such. I'm in AZ, and I'd like to get to Gunsite for some carbine and pistol courses, health and time permitting.
I recommend you get the basic Noveske in 5.56 AND a Rem 700 in 308 for $2000.
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