View Full Version : Wanting to buy a M&P 9mm but worried about the accuracy issues
MiamiCracker
05-28-12, 17:46
I have been doin a lot of research on this subject about the FS M&P 9mm accuracy issues. I am planning on buying my first pistol within two to three months. I want to go with the 9mm due to ammo cost but the accuracy issues inherent in the FS models are steering me towards the .40 FS model. My whole thing is buying a inaccurate gun and having to send it back, something I would rather not have to bother with. Should I go with the .40 FS or am I over thinking this? All help would be appreciated.
mkmckinley
05-28-12, 17:51
You instinct to go with 9mm is a good one and the M&P9 is a good pistol. You're going to have to practice a hell of a lot before you'll notice any accuracy deficiency if one even exists. At the point you notice the mechanical accuracy holding back your training you can get an upgraded barrel. I'd just get the M&P9, a case of ammo, a good trainer and a range membership.
MiamiCracker
05-28-12, 17:57
Thanks for the advice, training is the key bottom line.
Don't let the so-called accuracy issue bother you. Unless you demand Olympic or Camp Perry level of accuracy, the gun will shoot better than most beginning shooters can accomplish.
mark olindale
05-28-12, 18:41
Don't let the so-called accuracy issue bother you. Unless you demand Olympic or Camp Perry level of accuracy, the gun will shoot better than most beginning shooters can accomplish.
+1
Since it is your first pistol you will probably find out that it will be more accurate than you until you get a couple thousand rounds through it. Even then it will always be sufficient for self defense and plinking.
In my experience the M&P is as accurate as any of the similarly priced service pistols.
This is with 20 hours of pro training and about 5k rounds down the pipe. When I shoot others Glocks, XD or my friends CZ 75-P01 I shoot virtually the same groups.
Most service style pistols are not going to give you match type accuracy out of the box as they where designed with clearances that sacrifice a little accuracy for allot of reliability.
I have been doin a lot of research on this subject about the FS M&P 9mm accuracy issues. I am planning on buying my first pistol within two to three months. I want to go with the 9mm due to ammo cost but the accuracy issues inherent in the FS models are steering me towards the .40 FS model. My whole thing is buying a inaccurate gun and having to send it back, something I would rather not have to bother with. Should I go with the .40 FS or am I over thinking this? All help would be appreciated.
What does your research suggest?
IMHO, there are very few things worse for a new shooter learning marksmanship than being uncertain why his groups don't shrink. Based on my personal experience, if you go with a 9 mm M&P you should consider how you might approach "is it a gun or is it me" question in the future. That future may be not too distant - or it may never come, depending on your dedication, talent, practice ethics etc.
P.S. I don't think I'd go with 0.40S&W caliber in any platform as a first pistol.
MiamiCracker
05-28-12, 20:15
Well I am not new to shooting, i have been shooting on and off with my old man for years. I am to the point where I want to own my own guns. JHC my research brings up possible manufactures error, possible operator errors, some guns seem fine to some while others have bad guns. Also the inaccuracies are at 25yds. I have read about the accuracy issue on these boards as well as on the S&W boards. I aint rolling in the dough, and this may be my only pistol I purchase for years so I want to make an informed decision before I purchase one.
MiamiCracker
05-28-12, 20:16
IMHO, there are very few things worse for a new shooter learning marksmanship than being uncertain why his groups don't shrink. Based on my personal experience, if you go with a 9 mm M&P you should consider how you might approach "is it a gun or is it me" question in the future. That future may be not too distant - or it may never come, depending on your dedication, talent, practice ethics etc.
P.S. I don't think I'd go with 0.40S&W caliber in any platform as a first pistol.
Good advice thanks
Well I am not new to shooting, i have been shooting on and off with my old man for years.
If you're confident in your abilities to call your misses, then there is no problem. Or, if you're confident in your abilities to control 40 and not flinch from a snappier recoil , then there is definitely no problem. I think you've read the dedicated M&P accuracy thread with all the diversity of opinions, doubt anything else can be said in this regard.
gunrunner505
05-28-12, 20:51
P.S. I don't think I'd go with 0.40S&W caliber in any platform as a first pistol.
why not?
why not?
Assumption is that "my first pistol" means "new shooter" or somebody who doesn't practice regularly.
I think that 40's recoil is too snappy and uncomfortable for a novice to handle. Aside from challenging not-yet-developed recoil management techniques, the faster and higher muzzle rise makes sight tracking harder. My biggest concern is anticipation and flinching though. People develop it with 9 as is, why expose them to a harder-kicking thing?
I know a few very advanced shooters who are honest about shooting 40 worse than either 9 or 45. I am not an advanced shooter but I am in the same boat. I shoot and control 45, let alone 9, better than 40. People who carry G23 for a CCW have my respect - provided that they can hit well enough and fast enough with it.
Try an M&P9c, the compacts don't seem to have the same issues as the full size models.
jmlshooter
05-28-12, 21:25
You'll be fine once you replace the barrel and fire control system and then replace the upper and lower with a Glock.
MiamiCracker
05-28-12, 21:26
Assumption is that "my first pistol" means "new shooter" or somebody who doesn't practice regularly.
I think that 40's recoil is too snappy and uncomfortable for a novice to handle. Aside from challenging not-yet-developed recoil management techniques, the faster and higher muzzle rise makes sight tracking harder. My biggest concern is anticipation and flinching though. People develop it with 9 as is, why expose them to a harder-kicking thing?
I know a few very advanced shooters who are honest about shooting 40 worse than either 9 or 45. I am not an advanced shooter but I am in the same boat. I shoot and control 45, let alone 9, better than 40. People who carry G23 for a CCW have my respect - provided that they can hit well enough and fast enough with it.
Correct, I don't practice regularly. I want start going to a range at least once a month.
RogerinTPA
05-28-12, 21:58
You instinct to go with 9mm is a good one and the M&P9 is a good pistol. You're going to have to practice a hell of a lot before you'll notice any accuracy deficiency if one even exists. At the point you notice the mechanical accuracy holding back your training you can get an upgraded barrel. I'd just get the M&P9, a case of ammo, a good trainer and a range membership.
Agreed. Despite a "some" accuracy issues at 25 yds, with "some" folks, with "some barrels", the M&P9 has more than an acceptable degree of accuracy, operator dependent.
OP, I really like my M&P40, but due to cost and the amount of shooting I do, I'd stick to the M&P9.
Try an M&P9c, the compacts don't seem to have the same issues as the full size models.
Agreed. My M&P9c is a little tack driver.
You'll be fine once you replace the barrel and fire control system and then replace the upper and lower with a Glock.
Pretty much my sentiments exactly. The M&P9 is a superb platform if you get one that doesn't have the accuracy issues. Having been one of the unfortunates, my buyer's confidence in the M&P9 is very low. The only way I would buy an M&P9 at this point is if it was used and the owner could prove it wasn't afflicted with this problem.
By the time you install APEX fire control parts (which is necessary imo) and a new barrel (which is necessary if you also want to use it to carry and compete), you're getting really close to HK P30 territory, and you've spent significantly more than a new PPQ or a used 2nd or 3rd Gen GLOCK, which I still think is the smartest handgun purchase one can make.
For those that have one that doesn't consistently shoot 8+ inches at 25yds, enjoy them, hold onto them, and visit a casino.
There is actually an easy answer here.
Buy a pre 2010 Gen 3 Glock 19, some after market sights, a kydex holster and mag pouch, a pile of 9mm ammo and attend as much formal training as you can swing.
Learn to shoot the Glock, focusing on software, and forget about hardware until you have learned enough to reach your own conclusions about what you should do next.
Even if you decide to change platforms down the road, everyone needs at least one Glock 19, and to know how to shoot what is almost the world's handgun.
You'll be fine once you replace the barrel and fire control system and then replace the upper and lower with a Glock.
no handgun is without its faults, and glocks certainly have plenty of their own. I think the accuracy issues are blown out of proportion. even shooting out to 15 yards, my m & p9 does just as well as my other handguns, and I honestly think the ergos, low perceived recoil, reliability, durability, and ease of maintenance more than make up for it.
Also, the trigger on the m & p is fine in my opinion. it doesn't cut into my finger like glock triggers can after long shooting sessions, has a break that is just as clean and crisp as a Glock, and audible reset is a non issue to me. I feel like if you train with your weapon and are proficient with it, hearing the reset is unnecessary.
If your shooting is at less than 10m I doubt you'd ever know the difference.
The one thing I suggest though if you're going to get the M&P is trigger work from ATEiguns.com He is a member here and you wont get a better trigger anywhere.
If your shooting is at less than 10m I doubt you'd ever know the difference.
.
That is correct, I'd say it is OK up to 15 yards. I scratched "sell that POS" from my to-do list after my wife expressed a potential interest in shooting a pistol. It would be a pretty good fit for her purposes - soft shooting, adjustable backstraps and she won't be shooting farther out than 7-10 yards.
P.S. I know that "POS" is a bit harsh but my 9 mm MP is successfully competing for a title of a worst handgun I've ever had.
You're going to have to practice a hell of a lot before you'll notice any accuracy deficiency if one even exists.
Not to call you out specifically, but I'm getting tired of reading this statement. I started shooting handgun only 1.5 years ago when I got my Glock and I can hit 9x12" steel at 50 yards like clockwork. Tell me, how could I get consistent hits on a 9" steel at 50 yards if my gun shot 9" groups at 25 yards? All I'm saying is I see no reason to risk handicapping your accuracy potential by playing the M&P dud lotto.
OP, If you're set on M&P I'd go with 40S&W or 45ACP. If you're set on 9mm (I would be) go with pre-09 GLOCK, FNS-9 (That's what I did) or a P30 if you want to shell out the $$ for it.
Good luck.
MiamiCracker
05-29-12, 04:46
Thanks for the replies. I plan to rent a M&P .40 at a local gun range and check out the recoil. I will see what else they have to rent also and try them out. The M&P9c sounds like an option as well.
Save up money a few more months and get the Sig you wanted.:D
I have personal experience w/4 M&P9's, one FS and 3 c's. All shoot to POA and are more accurate than I am.
Tomac
Not to call you out specifically, but I'm getting tired of reading this statement. I started shooting handgun only 1.5 years ago when I got my Glock and I can hit 9x12" steel at 50 yards like clockwork. Tell me, how could I get consistent hits on a 9" steel at 50 yards if my gun shot 9" groups at 25 yards? All I'm saying is I see no reason to risk handicapping your accuracy potential by playing the M&P dud lotto.
OP, If you're set on M&P I'd go with 40S&W or 45ACP. If you're set on 9mm (I would be) go with pre-09 GLOCK, FNS-9 (That's what I did) or a P30 if you want to shell out the $$ for it.
Good luck.
You are in the minority of folks though at that skill level. Well maybe not on this site but in general. A lot of other forums that tout the M&P as being craptastic are populated by people who I suspect would have a hard time hitting a 9" steel at 50 yards with a iron sited rifle much less a handgun of any variety.
I've owned 2 M&P 9s both 5" pros. Both had accuracy issues, enough to make a difference. I had about 2500 rounds through each. I really liked the gun and they were both very reliable. Just not the accuracy I needed for IDPA as that is what they were purchased for. For defensive accuracy they may be fine for some, not me though.
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I have personal experience w/4 M&P9's, one FS and 3 c's. All shoot to POA and are more accurate than I am.
Tomac
I have personal experience with two FS and one Pro 9mm.
None will shoot <7" 10-round groups at 25 yards. None will shoot the same load to the same POI.
My Glocks can shoot sub 3" 10-round groups.
Anecdotal information can vary.
If you're set on 9mm (I would be) go with pre-09 GLOCK, FNS-9 (That's what I did)
Good luck.
I'd be inclined to stick with 9mm and go with GJM's advice above or the FNS Hayden mentions.
Str8Jacket722
05-29-12, 08:37
Thanks for the replies. I plan to rent a M&P .40 at a local gun range and check out the recoil. I will see what else they have to rent also and try them out. The M&P9c sounds like an option as well.
This was going to be my suggestion. Hit up your LGS and check out several firearms, start with the M&P (as this was your original desire), and look at the Glock 19, Walther PPQ, and the FN FNS (the last two are only my suggestions, because I like them). Stick with the 9mm as it is affordable and controllable and plenty accurate. I would also try different types of ammunition once you've made your purchase decision to see what your firearm of choice likes to eat. You should not skimp in the ammunition dept. either, figure out which ammo it likes for training/plinking, and what it likes for self defense. Buy quality gear (this is from personal experience) buy once, cry once. Then get out there and become proficient with your weapon of choice, and then start taking classes to take you beyond your comfort zone. :cool:
Not to call you out specifically, but I'm getting tired of reading this statement. I started shooting handgun only 1.5 years ago when I got my Glock and I can hit 9x12" steel at 50 yards like clockwork. Tell me, how could I get consistent hits on a 9" steel at 50 yards if my gun shot 9" groups at 25 yards? All I'm saying is I see no reason to risk handicapping your accuracy potential by playing the M&P dud lotto.
OP, If you're set on M&P I'd go with 40S&W or 45ACP. If you're set on 9mm (I would be) go with pre-09 GLOCK, FNS-9 (That's what I did) or a P30 if you want to shell out the $$ for it.
Good luck.
I like that term. I played the M&P dud lotto and ended up with a 9mm Pro that had a hard time keeping 10 rounds on an 8.5x11 sheet of paper at 25 yards, along with some extraction issues too. I replaced it with a 2008 production Glock 19 and immediately saw an improvement.
I rented a FS 9, 9c, 40FS, 40c, and 45 mid.
The 9c and the 45 were the most accurate benched and offhand. Both 40's were very snappy and turned me off to that cartridge.
I ended up buying a FS 45 since I am coming from 1911's and it fills the role I need write now. I also reload for 45 which is a big part of the decision.
The FS 45 I got is almost as accurate as the 4" 1911 I usually carry with ball ammo. I ran some 200 gr LSWC target loads through it and at 30 feet benched, it shot one ragged half dollar sized hole.
I will most likely buy a 9c or Shield in 9 for my new CCW.
As far as accuracy issues with the FS 9; from the posts I've read and groups I've seen and experienced, I decided to pass for now.
I keep hearing that the gun is more accurate than most shooters. If this is true there must be a LOT of bad pistol shooters out there in the tactical community.
I can think of at least 25 guys at my club who would notice that kind of accuracy issue. Off hand, with deliberate timed shots, at 30 feet you should be able to keep all your shots inside the black of a NRA 25 yard slow fire target-bare minimum. The black of the 50 foot target would be optimal IMHO.
Gutshot John
05-29-12, 12:10
Making decisions on which firearm to buy based on what you've read on the interwebs is goofball. Make your decisions based on what you CAN do with a firearm.
There are a few legitimate problem-child 9mm M&Ps, there are even fewer shooters that can quantify this in any meaningful way. To extrapolate this as representative of the accuracy all 9mm M&Ps is absurd. You might as well call Glock unreliable.
If you want a 9mm and you like the M&P, then buy a 9mm M&P. The overwhelming majority of 9mm M&Ps shoot just fine. Take the gun out and SHOOT IT!!!! If you have a problem with the gun, send it back to get fixed. It's that simple.
No gun model, not Glock, not Sig, not S&W, not ____ is ever going to be 100% fullproof, accurate and reliable. Such expectations, born of the errornet, demonstrate the source of MOST (but not all) of the so-called problems.
You'll be fine once you replace the barrel and fire control system and then replace the upper and lower with a Glock.
BS. The days of simply replying "buy a Glock" are gone. You're just as likely to be trading one set of problems for another.
OP, if you intend to carry you new pistol, take a good hard look at the M&P 9c. It offers all the benefits of the M&P in a concealable package and they are reliably accurate.
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30 cal slut
05-29-12, 12:36
For defensive carry, the M&P9 full size is perfectly adequate.
Most shootings are inside 10 ft or so - the M&P is perfectly adequate at that range.
If you get to the point where you are concerned about accuracy at 20-25 yards with the M&P9 full size, upgrade your barrel. Also, guns are like potato chips - you can't have just one - you'll probably buy another pistol, maybe that pistol should be a Gen 3 Glock 17.
Out of the box - I would add an Apex sear (and a RAM), and swap out the sights (Heine Straight 8's or Warren Tactical).
MiamiCracker
05-29-12, 12:40
Making decisions on which firearm to buy based on what you've read on the interwebs is goofball. Make your decisions based on what you CAN do with a firearm.
There are a few legitimate problem-child 9mm M&Ps, there are even fewer shooters that can quantify this in any meaningful way. To extrapolate this as representative of the accuracy all 9mm M&Ps is absurd. You might as well call Glock unreliable.
If you want a 9mm and you like the M&P, then buy a 9mm M&P. The overwhelming majority of 9mm M&Ps shoot just fine. Take the gun out and SHOOT IT!!!! If you have a problem with the gun, send it back to get fixed. It's that simple.
No gun model, not Glock, not Sig, not S&W, not ____ is ever going to be 100% fullproof, accurate and reliable. Such expectations, born of the errornet, demonstrate the source of MOST (but not all) of the so-called problems.
Does it hurt to ask people who may have more knowledege about a pistol I may consider buying? I rather ask here first, rent a gun or two, then use the knowledge to make a informed decision. I have a budget of $500-$600, and I probably wont buy another gun for a few years (except a gun for the wife).
Gutshot John
05-29-12, 13:07
Does it hurt to ask people who may have more knowledege about a pistol I may consider buying? I rather ask here first, rent a gun or two, then use the knowledge to make a informed decision. I have a budget of $500-$600, and I probably wont buy another gun for a few years (except a gun for the wife).
How do you know their opinion is free of bias? How do you know they're speaking of first-hand experience and not just repeating what they read somewhere? How do you know they have more knowledge? Even if you've properly vetted the source, how do you quantify a handful of anecdotal reports of genuine problems that get disproportionate attention vs. the overwhelming majority of guns that are shot every day without a single problem.
But by all means, someone please quantify what percentage of M&Ps exhibit an accuracy "problem" unrelated to the shooter? 5%? 10%? 20%? What? Show me some hard data.
Once we've determined that, someone please tell me what percentage of those problem guns were sent back to Smith and what was Smith's response? Do they stand behind their product? If so what's the problem?
This is the problem with the interwebs...no one that I'm aware of has quantified this in anything remotely resembling a meaningful or statistical relevant way and yet people parrot the wisdom of things they've heard, from net denizens of questionable reputation, and it is taken by the uninformed as "knowledge."
I'm honestly tired of it.
How do you know their opinion is free of bias? How do you know they're speaking of first-hand experience and not just repeating what they read somewhere? How do you know they have more knowledge? Even if you've properly vetted the source, how do you quantify a handful of anecdotal reports of genuine problems that get disproportionate attention vs. the overwhelming majority of guns that are shot every day without a single problem.
But by all means, someone please quantify what percentage of M&Ps exhibit an accuracy "problem" unrelated to the shooter? 5%? 10%? 20%? What? Show me some hard data.
You're right, he should just go buy 100 9mm M&P's and run 5,000 round through each to help make his decision.
Once we've determined that, someone please tell me what percentage of those problem guns were sent back to Smith and what was Smith's response? Do they stand behind their product? If so what's the problem?
From most of the reports I've heard they just shoot some groups at 15 yards and ship it back saying everything checks out.
Gutshot John
05-29-12, 14:01
You're right, he should just go buy 100 9mm M&P's and run 5,000 round through each to help make his decision.
Either you don't read too well or you walked 10 miles out of your way to miss the point. Don't be a goofball, no one suggested any such thing.
So until you quantify what percentage of M&Ps have an accuracy "problem" you're just blowing smoke.
From most of the reports I've heard they just shoot some groups at 15 yards and ship it back saying everything checks out.
Thank you for proving my point, you don't have any first-hand experience with their customer service and are simply parroting what you've heard from others...who may or may not be qualified to determine the true accuracy of their gun.
So either Smith doesn't know how to build and test pistols or the shooters in question don't know what they're doing. I'm guessing it's not the former.
My experience with Smith's customer service has been exemplary. I'm betting that "most of the reports" you've heard are from people who can't shoot.
Are there genuine problems with SOME M&Ps? Sure...but there are genuine problems with any some number of any firearm.
The vast majority shoot just fine.
outrider627
05-29-12, 14:02
Thanks for the replies. I plan to rent a M&P .40 at a local gun range and check out the recoil. I will see what else they have to rent also and try them out. The M&P9c sounds like an option as well.
Oye Brother! Cool to see someone else located in my hood. :D
If you don't know, Florida Gun Center in Hialeah has M&Ps available for rental. Its best to go between Monday-Thursday around noon. It gets packed on Fridays around 2-3pm, and I can imagine its worse on weekends. Make sure to call ahead and confirm they're open to the public. I once drove there and the range was closed for LEO only practice.
One more thing. If you do go, check the magazine that comes with the gun. I got a 40 cal mag when I rented the M&P9.
MiamiCracker
05-29-12, 14:17
BS. The days of simply replying "buy a Glock" are gone. You're just as likely to be trading one set of problems for another.
OP, if you intend to carry you new pistol, take a good hard look at the M&P 9c. It offers all the benefits of the M&P in a concealable package and they are reliably accurate.
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I am considering a 9c, thanks for the advice
MiamiCracker
05-29-12, 14:19
Oye Brother! Cool to see someone else located in my hood. :D
If you don't know, Florida Gun Center in Hialeah has M&Ps available for rental. Its best to go between Monday-Thursday around noon. It gets packed on Fridays around 2-3pm, and I can imagine its worse on weekends. Make sure to call ahead and confirm they're open to the public. I once drove there and the range was closed for LEO only practice.
One more thing. If you do go, check the magazine that comes with the gun. I got a 40 cal mag when I rented the M&P9.
Cool man, I was thinking of Ace's in Doral thanks for reminding me. Where in SoFlo are you located? As of this Friday I am moving back to Miami Springs.
For defensive carry, the M&P9 full size is perfectly adequate.
Most shootings are inside 10 ft or so - the M&P is perfectly adequate at that range.
If you get to the point where you are concerned about accuracy at 20-25 yards with the M&P9 full size, upgrade your barrel. Also, guns are like potato chips - you can't have just one - you'll probably buy another pistol, maybe that pistol should be a Gen 3 Glock 17.
Out of the box - I would add an Apex sear (and a RAM), and swap out the sights (Heine Straight 8's or Warren Tactical).
Agree. I've owned three full size M&P's. All of them were accurate enough for defensive use, especially inside of 15 yards. By "accurate enough", I mean you should be able to tear the center out of the bull during slow fire. Beyond that, it may get a little dicey, but I'm not good enough offhand at 25 yards to blame the gun. I would also recommend the Apex sear or DCAEK kit, but put 1000 rounds through it first. With a $500-$600 budget, I'd get the fullsize or compact and a good set of sights and start shooting. FYI, the Apex RAM won't work in a new production gun with the updated sear housing block.
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Awesome1228
05-29-12, 14:41
Are there genuine problems with SOME M&Ps? Sure...but there are genuine problems with any some number of any firearm.
I guess it comes down to which of those known problems are you willing to take a chance on? Would I rather potentially get smacked in the forehead with hot brass, or would I rather potentially have accuracy problems at 25 yards? Either one is fixable if you happen to get one of the small percentage of guns that have issues, but it will cost you to fix it. What are the chances of getting a bad one? Who knows. This is the way I see it. There are known, specific problems with some 9mm M&Ps, and some Gen 4 Glocks. Every manufacturer can have QC problems for any number of reasons, resulting in a "bad one" getting through. Send it back and have it fixed. When there are specific issues that seem to be more than just a bad one, that indicates a larger overall issue.
Look at it this way. Back in the 90s, there was a story that someone bought a bucket of chicken at KFC. They bit into a juicy, plump piece of chicken just to discover that it wasn't chicken after all, but a rat. Totally random, one in a million chance. KFC's reputation suffered. To this day, I still know people who call the place "Kentucky Fried Rat". The point is that problems or perceived problems pose a risk for the consumer. I didn't eat at KFC for years. Maybe I was being silly and buying into the hype, but there were a lot of other places to go eat that didn't have the stigma of serving rats. Same idea with the M&P. There are other manufacturers that haven't had a reputation for selling guns with problems, so why take the chance when there are other options?
OP, maybe I'm off base here, I don't claim to be an expert, just a cautious consumer. As people on this forum are so fond of saying, buy once, cry once. Get an HK P30 or a Sig 226. No more concerns. Sure, it's a couple hundred dollars more that the budget you have. Save up for a few more months and buy something of KNOWN quality.
I recently went through the "which 9mm" debate as well. These are the ones I considered:
S&W M&P
Sig 226
Sig Pro 2022
Glock 19
HK USP
HK P30
Walther PPQ
Price was a consideration, as it always is. These range from $400-$1000, or thereabouts. These also represent a pretty thorough cross section of configurations, trigger types, polymer vs steel, striker fired or hammer, etc. Every one has advantages and disadvantages. Bottom line, there are plenty of options out there. Figure out what works for you. Why are you set on the M&P? As others have stated, go try em. Rent and shoot whatever you can get your hands on. Find the one you like and go with it.
How do you know their opinion is free of bias? How do you know they're speaking of first-hand experience and not just repeating what they read somewhere? How do you know they have more knowledge? Even if you've properly vetted the source, how do you quantify a handful of anecdotal reports of genuine problems that get disproportionate attention vs. the overwhelming majority of guns that are shot every day without a single problem.
But by all means, someone please quantify what percentage of M&Ps exhibit an accuracy "problem" unrelated to the shooter? 5%? 10%? 20%? What? Show me some hard data.
Once we've determined that, someone please tell me what percentage of those problem guns were sent back to Smith and what was Smith's response? Do they stand behind their product? If so what's the problem?
This is the problem with the interwebs...no one that I'm aware of has quantified this in anything remotely resembling a meaningful or statistical relevant way and yet people parrot the wisdom of things they've heard, from net denizens of questionable reputation, and it is taken by the uninformed as "knowledge."
I'm honestly tired of it.
I own over 10 9mm M&P pistols. Not a SINGLE one will shoot multiple loads to anywhere near the same POI, with an accuracy standard of four inches or better at 25 yards for a five round group. Most will shoot a single load under four inches, but there is no commonality to what load runs in what pistol. I have sent four pistols back to S&W, and on three they replaced the slide and the fourth replaced the barrel. That changed what pistol shot what group, but NONE will shoot multiple loads under four inches at 25 yards to near the same POI. My friends have had the same experience. In contrast, every Glock and HK 9 I own will meet the above accuracy standard.
What I am tired of, is folks who reject the accuracy problems I have actually experienced with a sample of over 10 M&P 9 pistols, without providing proof that they have a SINGLE M&P that will meet that accuracy standard. Gutshot, why don't you pick three or four different loads, shoot your M&P at 25 yards, and post pictures of your groups and point of impacts.
MiamiCracker
05-29-12, 15:01
The reason I want an M&P because of the way it fits my hand and looks. I haven't shot one of any caliber. I was looking also at the 3.8 XDm(just went to a gunshow on Sunday looked at those two plus some Glocks). The M&Ps felt the best in my hand, Glock was 2nd, XDm was not bad either but I noticed its top heavy.
One thing I wanted to add was the best group I ever shot was when my dad's friend let me shoot his FN-5.7(hit the bullseye every time), I was may 10-15ft away nothing to brag about but that gun was accurate as hell
[So either Smith doesn't know how to build and test pistols or the shooters in question don't know what they're doing. I'm guessing it's not the former.
My experience with Smith's customer service has been exemplary. I'm betting that "most of the reports" you've heard are from people who can't shoot.
Are there genuine problems with SOME M&Ps? Sure...but there are genuine problems with any some number of any firearm.
The vast majority shoot just fine.[/QUOTE]
No.
The vast majority shoot fine only by the relatively low standards of the average gun owner...hence there's no problem discovered. Some hard statistical analysis would be nice, but who has the time/resources that also cares or is capable of shooting 25 yd groups? S&W does, but so far they don't really care.
I'm just a low grade SSP Master class shooter. My standards are: must be able to make consistent head box shots at 25 yds. My random stock glocks do it, with most any ammo, to near the same POI. Beretta 92s do it no problem. DA revolvers with crappy 14 lb pulls do it. Hell even most XDs do it.
Of the 5 M&P9s I've had, only 2 would do it....if I paid strict attention to the ammo used. Since I can't afford to shoot 147 gr +P HST (in one gun), and Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P in another, this isn't going to work.
These results are not just mine, I shoot weekly with other IDPA and USPSA master class shooters, same observation. Bummer is, the M&P45s shoot rings around the 9mms, but I can't afford to feed them.
Hogsgunwild
05-29-12, 15:42
How do you know their opinion is free of bias? How do you know they're speaking of first-hand experience and not just repeating what they read somewhere? How do you know they have more knowledge? Even if you've properly vetted the source, how do you quantify a handful of anecdotal reports of genuine problems that get disproportionate attention vs. the overwhelming majority of guns that are shot every day without a single problem.
But by all means, someone please quantify what percentage of M&Ps exhibit an accuracy "problem" unrelated to the shooter? 5%? 10%? 20%? What? Show me some hard data.
Once we've determined that, someone please tell me what percentage of those problem guns were sent back to Smith and what was Smith's response? Do they stand behind their product? If so what's the problem?
This is the problem with the interwebs...no one that I'm aware of has quantified this in anything remotely resembling a meaningful or statistical relevant way and yet people parrot the wisdom of things they've heard, from net denizens of questionable reputation, and it is taken by the uninformed as "knowledge."
I'm honestly tired of it.
Actually, I have made valuable decisions regarding techniques, training, gear and gun purchases based on the quality of the input from the posters on this website and it is one of the best places I know of to start to look for info on most shooting related topics.
I often do a Google search and enter m4carbine.net at the end to hear these opinions first. Very few places can you sidestep so much BS so quickly.
This thread alone should clue one into how massive the M&P 9MM accuracy issue is. I was amazed reading about how many posters in this thread alone have had major accuracy issues (myself included).
If only, say, 5% of all handgun shooters are capable of good 25 yard accuracy (whatever, lets just say less than 4, 5 or six inch groups is "good" for the purpose of this topic) and only, say, perhaps 5% (or whatever arbitrary number you want, 15%, 30% but it I doubt that it would be too high) of these exceptional shooters also post on the internet, then we will only ever hear of a tiny portion of the huge number of inaccurate M&Ps out there. It is simple math and very clear to me regardless of the exact percentages.
Also, for the op I will voice my opinion among the many others here that if you get a FS 9MM M&P, you may or may not need to replace the barrel but if your next step is to take a training course, would you really want to deal with the possibility of an inaccurate gun?
It sounds like the op is in the stage of his shooting where he may pursue some training next; new gun, new member here, etc.
I think at any stage along the path of improving one's shooting abilities, one should always have the most accurate gun that is practical for self defense. Anything less just gives the shooter harder to decipher feedback. For example, say the op is presently capable of
a 10" group at 25 yards with the most accurate gun made or with a laser, ie: virtually no mechanical error. If he is shooting a gun that only groups, say, 8" at 25 yards, at times he will be 18 inches from the center of the target and at times when he did everything right he could still get feedback showing 8" off in any direction. Other times when he induces errors from improper technique, he may just be (incorrectly) rewarded with a bullseye hit. That is counter-productive and would be a huge waste of time to use a pistol like that in any type of accuracy / fundamentals training.
I will also vote for the M&P compact 9MM or the Walther PPQ for carry and training guns. My PPQ is a good bit more accurate than the M&P compact but for it's size, the compact does very well. I found that mine can shoot a bit under 4 inches at 25 yards, shot supported.
Gutshot John
05-29-12, 18:09
I guess it comes down to which of those known problems are you willing to take a chance on? Would I rather potentially get smacked in the forehead with hot brass, or would I rather potentially have accuracy problems at 25 yards?
The complaints about Glock are not limited to brass. Reliability has been a recurring complaint as well.
Do I interpret these claims as indication that Glocks are no longer reliable? **** no.
Gutshot John
05-29-12, 18:12
I own over 10 9mm M&P pistols. Not a SINGLE one will shoot multiple loads to anywhere near the same POI,
I have no way of gauging your skill and you've given no way of ascertaining your methodology. I will say that I'm skeptical of your claim. Why would you buy, and keep buying 10 pistols when not a single one shoots where you want it? There must have been something that you liked about the gun.
I've owned 5, all of them shoot well within acceptable accuracy standards. Two of which are capable of cloverleafs at 25 yards off the bench.
Individual samples and anecdotal stories such as above should be viewed with skepticism when the VAST majority shoot just fine. Until someone shows me some objective data with a verifiable methodology to the contrary, my suspicion remains that most of the accuracy "problems" associated with the M&P are shooter related.
Individual samples and anecdotal stories such as above should be viewed with skepticism when the VAST majority shoot just fine.
What is the basis for your statement that the "VAST" majority shoot just fine?
Would you consider it a clue that the M4 semi-auto handgun section is filled with threads on the issues with M&P 9 accuracy problems, and there is not a single thread on Glock 9mm accuracy issues?
Gutshot John
05-29-12, 18:30
This thread alone should clue one into how massive the M&P 9MM accuracy issue is. I was amazed reading about how many posters in this thread alone have had major accuracy issues (myself included).
If only, say, 5% of all handgun shooters are capable of good 25 yard accuracy (whatever, lets just say less than 4, 5 or six inch groups is "good" for the purpose of this topic) and only, say, perhaps 5% (or whatever arbitrary number you want, 15%, 30% but it I doubt that it would be too high) of these exceptional shooters also post on the internet, then we will only ever hear of a tiny portion of the huge number of inaccurate M&Ps out there. It is simple math and very clear to me regardless of the exact percentages.
You've never actually studied statistics or mathematic modeling have you? Your conclusions (and your math) are deeply, deeply flawed. The more crappy shooters that are out there, the more the data is going to skew towards accuracy problems, the exact opposite of your assessment above. Most shooters want to blame their gear for their failings, any time spent on this site should have brought this lesson home.
It doesn't matter what percentage of M&P shooters are capable of good groups or not. We're not measuring what percentage of shooters are capable of high degree of accuracy, we're eliminating the shooter as a variable.
If 20% of M&Ps are incapable of decent accuracy, it doesn't matter what the quality of the shooter is, IF YOU USE THE PROPER METHODOLOGY!!!!
Gutshot John
05-29-12, 18:36
What is the basis for your statement that the "VAST" majority shoot just fine?
The fact that they've sold tens of thousands of copies, and that I've seen less than 100 credible, well documented, complaints, with fewer still where I trust the individuals in question and know the skill level at which they shoot.
Would you consider it a clue that the M4 semi-auto handgun section is filled with threads on the issues with M&P 9 accuracy problems, and there is not a single thread on Glock 9mm accuracy issues?
No I'd call it a clue that people read shit on the internet, no matter what the source, and parrot what they think is wisdom.
Perhaps ironically you do see a lot of Glock reliability threads.
I own both Glocks and M&Ps, I shoot both, I like both. I definitely shoot the M&P better.
Does that mean the Glock is a crappy gun? **** no.
militarymoron
05-29-12, 18:37
Individual samples and anecdotal stories such as above should be viewed with skepticism when the VAST majority shoot just fine.
every manufacturer will turn out a lemon at one time or another. i don't care how well the VAST majority of M&Ps shoot if i have issues with mine. it all boils down to an individual's experience.
i've posted here in the past that i've had accuracy issues (and other issues) with my M&P fullsize 9mm. when i'm not able to get the same groups with the M&P that i can with a glock, BHP etc, i start looking at the gun, because it now points to something mechanical, not my ability (since i've proven it with other pistols).
my M&P slide had rust issues, and the chamber was too tight. it'd fail to go into complete battery. blame the ammo? not when every other of my pistol fed it without issues. sent it back to S&W. they fixed the rust issue, and also the tight chamber.
it functioned fine, but the groups i was getting were about double that of other pistols, same ammo/same distance. i shot from a rest to test it out, and verify that it wasn't me. i started hearing about folks with the same issues. i was at the range with another mod here (smglee), and he had a fullsize M&P 9mm. i shot it, and the accuracy was just fine. he shot mine, and could not group well with it. i took the barrel out of his gun, put it in mine, and immediately the groups shrank. it was my barrel. i sent the pistol back to S&W for the 2nd time, and when it came back, it was shooting good groups - on par with my glock and other pistols.
so, that's my sample of one. i'm not saying that the vast majority of M&Ps have accuracy issues, only that MINE had an accuracy issue. smglee is my witness for that, so it's verifiable, and i probably have the return invoice from S&W.
So the MP9 has accuracy issues in not having different loads shoot to the same POI at 25 yards? The related accuracy issue is they do not shoot very tight groups at 25 yards - tight groups being sub-4 inch groups? Are there other accuracy issues not specifically addressed here? And are these issues spread across the production run or have they been narrowed down to specific year groups?
Spooky
I've owned 5, all of them shoot well within acceptable accuracy standards. Two of which are capable of cloverleafs at 25 yards off the bench.
Individual samples and anecdotal stories such as above should be viewed with skepticism when the VAST majority shoot just fine. Until someone shows me some objective data with a verifiable methodology to the contrary, my suspicion remains that most of the accuracy "problems" associated with the M&P are shooter related.
Here's 40 rounds from my Glock 17 @ 25 yards (one round is slightly out of the photo to the right). The black circle is 3.89".
My M&P will fill a 12"X12" sheet of paper shooting at the same target, with the same load, at the same distance.
http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j325/mizer2167/IMG_0749.jpg
Here's a 10-rd group @ 25 yards from my CZ 75 Shadow, and it's not even the best the gun is capable of printing, just what I happened to have easy access to online.
http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j325/mizer2167/CZ75Group2.jpg
What I'd like to see is a picture of an 9mm M&P shooting cloverleafs at 25 yards.
What is the basis for your statement that the "VAST" majority shoot just fine?
Would you consider it a clue that the M4 semi-auto handgun section is filled with threads on the issues with M&P 9 accuracy problems, and there is not a single thread on Glock 9mm accuracy issues?
Glocks don't have accuracy issues, but their extraction & ejection issues are pretty well documented here. In fact, one could argue that this subforum has a comparable number of threads dedicated to glock issues. I had one throwing brass at my forehead from the first magazine. Right between the eyes & hard enough to draw blood. If I had to choose, I'd take an 8" group at 25 yds over a malfunctioning gun any day. That gun appears to be fixed now and is growing on me quickly. But I wouldn't say that I really trust it yet. Point being, Glocks have issues too.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Awesome1228
05-29-12, 19:19
The complaints about Glock are not limited to brass. Reliability has been a recurring complaint as well.
Do I interpret these claims as indication that Glocks are no longer reliable? **** no.
I get your point, but i think you missed mine. There are known problems with some Glocks and some M&Ps. As an end user, whats the best way to reduce the chances that I will get one that has issues and needs to ne repaired or replaced? BUY SOMETHING ELSE. Is that overreacting? I dont think so, when there are other options out there.
Just bought a full size M&P 9 last weekend. It has been 100% reliable through almost 500 rounds of assorted ammo, and the accuracy is very good, even out to 25 yds. No problems at all, although I don't like the three dot Novak type sights.
I will say that I'm skeptical of your claim. Why would you buy, and keep buying 10 pistols when not a single one shoots where you want it? There must have been something that you liked about the gun.
You need to know GJM to resolve the concerns and skepticism. The dude has been on M&P bandwagon for all the good reasons that makes M&P so popular - ergos, Apex trigger, mild recoil. The only reason I have M&P is because of him praising it. When accuracy issues came up, he pulled no stops to find a few that would satisfy him, and is now left with a bag of 9 mm MPs...
You're right in that it is nearly impossible to sort out the noise-to-signal ratio on the internet. That's why taking classes, seeing people shoot, personally knowing some posters here, and whatever else is available to objectify the info, is so helpful. That increases your sample size, even if by proxy. I've seen GJM shoot, and he has seen me shoot, we both are anal enough not to base our opinions on one 3 shot group, and it is safe to say that we both trust each others marksmanship. I've shot next to industry pros and instructors who had same experience with MP guns, and to me the burden of evidence is beyond any doubt.
Mm above has made another valid point - whatever the percentage of the problem guns is, it often comes down to personal experience. With all the problems reported about Gen4 Glocks, my M&P doesn't come close to my Gen 4 Glock on several levels. That doesn't mean that I'll be recommending Gen4 Glocks left in right, but it is surely means I'll never recommend MP to anybody.
The reason I want an M&P because of the way it fits my hand and looks. I haven't shot one of any caliber. I was looking also at the 3.8 XDm(just went to a gunshow on Sunday looked at those two plus some Glocks). The M&Ps felt the best in my hand, Glock was 2nd, XDm was not bad either but I noticed its top heavy.
One thing I wanted to add was the best group I ever shot was when my dad's friend let me shoot his FN-5.7(hit the bullseye every time), I was may 10-15ft away nothing to brag about but that gun was accurate as hell
Have you shot any of the guns you're looking at or just held them? If not, start there. If you haven't shot all of them or at least as many as you can find to rent, start there. My observations and yours may not be the same. If you've just held them, that's not a great indicator of how well you'll run the gun. Looks is not something I even consider in a defense weapon. It's simply unimportant. I use to go hold them at gun stores as well and make a decision based on that. That was until I shot the Glock 21. I held one in a LGS and thought it was too big for my hand, didn't feel right etc. Except then I ran one and ran it fine. it wasn't uncomfortable at all. Soft shooting .45 actually. Ended up liking it quite a bit.
Just bought a full size M&P 9 last weekend. It has been 100% reliable through almost 500 rounds of assorted ammo, and the accuracy is very good, even out to 25 yds. No problems at all, although I don't like the three dot Novak type sights.
Ok, but define "very good" for me. To me, very good accuracy at 25 yards is 2.5"-3" groups. Is it that very good or...?
MiamiCracker
05-29-12, 22:41
@ Striker, I know looks are not everything. If I rent a few and find that I shoot a Glock or another pistol better and like it I may change my mind
Maybe you should consider the FNS or Caracal pistols. Lots of good feedback coming in about these pistols. Accuracy is supposed to be good in these. The most accurate polymer I've ever used, was the Walther PPQ.
Hogsgunwild
05-30-12, 01:26
You've never actually studied statistics or mathematic modeling have you? Your conclusions (and your math) are deeply, deeply flawed. The more crappy shooters that are out there, the more the data is going to skew towards accuracy problems, the exact opposite of your assessment above. Most shooters want to blame their gear for their failings, any time spent on this site should have brought this lesson home.
That was very arrogant, especially considering that you don't get the simple premise of the whole issue: most people don't shoot past 15 yards (where the M&P accuracy issue becomes an issue).
For the typical shooter, ignorance is bliss and they have no reason to complain as the M&P 9MM FS will satisfy their needs well enough.
It is only the above average shooters that ever realize that there is a problem.
Arguing with and doubting everyone on this site after so many reputable posters have discussed their obvious and real M&P problems makes me wonder why you are so clueless on the issue and just can't get it? It is simple and straightforward after reading the problem threads on this site.
Hogsgunwild
05-30-12, 01:34
No.
The vast majority shoot fine only by the relatively low standards of the average gun owner...hence there's no problem discovered. Some hard statistical analysis would be nice, but who has the time/resources that also cares or is capable of shooting 25 yd groups? S&W does, but so far they don't really care.
I'm just a low grade SSP Master class shooter. My standards are: must be able to make consistent head box shots at 25 yds. My random stock glocks do it, with most any ammo, to near the same POI. Beretta 92s do it no problem. DA revolvers with crappy 14 lb pulls do it. Hell even most XDs do it.
Of the 5 M&P9s I've had, only 2 would do it....if I paid strict attention to the ammo used. Since I can't afford to shoot 147 gr +P HST (in one gun), and Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P in another, this isn't going to work.
These results are not just mine, I shoot weekly with other IDPA and USPSA master class shooters, same observation. Bummer is, the M&P45s shoot rings around the 9mms, but I can't afford to feed them.
Exactly. This is right on.
Pass on it if you are worried. Don't out smart yourself, you hate when you out smart yourself. Follow your gut instinct.
IMO M&P's are solid pistols. I own an M&P45c and it was my first pistol(although I have been shooting since I was 8, just never owned my own pistol). I was able to learn how to shoot and shoot well with my 45c.
I agree with the other members that I would never suggest a .40 to a person who is buying their first handgun, it's just too damn snappy. But maybe a .45 and definitely a 9mm. I have over 4,500 rounds through my M&P45c with not a single issue, and I mean no issues at all, it has functioned flawlessly since day 1.
My gen 4 Glock 19 is a great pistol. I have over 2200 rounds with no issues what so ever. If it comes down to the M&P line(which I love as well) get a 9c brother, all the way.
I am struggling with an M&P that is pure ****ing garbage. Brand new G17, old G19, 15 year old G19, and 2 other M&P's all shot 3" or better at 25 yards. M&P Shield shoots 3" at 25 yards. Pretty safe to say the M&P I believe to be a piece of shit is in fact a piece of shit, in terms of accuracy. Whether or not it is acceptable to myself or someone else is all relative. 10 shots, 100 shots, 1000 shots... It just doesn't produce groups as small as other guns.
MiamiCracker
05-30-12, 08:24
IMO M&P's are solid pistols. I own an M&P45c and it was my first pistol(although I have been shooting since I was 8, just never owned my own pistol). I was able to learn how to shoot and shoot well with my 45c.
I agree with the other members that I would never suggest a .40 to a person who is buying their first handgun, it's just too damn snappy. But maybe a .45 and definitely a 9mm. I have over 4,500 rounds through my M&P45c with not a single issue, and I mean no issues at all, it has functioned flawlessly since day 1.
My gen 4 Glock 19 is a great pistol. I have over 2200 rounds with no issues what so ever. If it comes down to the M&P line(which I love as well) get a 9c brother, all the way.
I was looking at the G19 online last night, I gonna consider that along with the 9c.
To answer the OP's question, yes you CAN get one that does not shoot better than 5" groups at 25yds. You can also get one that does (see them all the time).
With that said, I would personally buy one and then (if it does not shoot to your NEEDS), then put a fitted barrel in it (which we will be offering).
With M&P's going for under $450, adding a $200 dollar fitted barrel brings the price tag up to $650 (about $100 over a GEN 4). Is that price increase worth it? IMHO, yes. For two main reasons. First, my testing shows that the Storm Lake fitted barrels are capable of producing UNDER one inch groups. Second, I believe that the M&P is a more ergonomic pistol and has the BEST integration of the CT laser grips.
C4
Gary1911A1
05-30-12, 09:56
Ordered a M&P9 with thumb safeties when my name came up next in ile from Buds Police Supply. They sent me a tracking number which shows it might be at my gun shop today. It might be Friday before I pick it up. There's a range next to the shop and I plan on taking a variety of ammo including some 147gr that Hilton found to shoot we'll in his. Hope it does well, but if not I like my M&P45 well enough to invest money into Apex Parts and a aftermarket barrel.
Skunk Pilot
05-30-12, 10:44
I JUST started looking into reloading and planning on getting a Progressive press with my uncle within 1-2 months, so because of that my info below strongly takes this into account. Like shooting the weakest PF (Power Factor) that I can get away with shooting paper targets at range (50 feet or less) or will only shoot minor if do IDPA or USPSA a few times a year (if they let you only do a few), if you can only do that a few times. Constant neck, hand... problems, so no way could do every event of the year.
I've also been considering this accuracy issue the last week and a half a lot. I sold my M&P9L 3 weeks ago (with FSS & Trigger) since I wanted the Full Size 4.25" or the Compact 9mm since want something closer to what I may actually carry or use for self defense if do IDPA or USPSA. I'll really only compete with myself.
Yes I'm regretting selling the M&P9L, only because the M&P 9mm accuracy issues are plaguing me. I would of been fine for the summer keeping it, even if it was shooting 8" at 25 yards (never tested with rest). Well wouldn't of been happy but I could live with it until I sprung for a Apex Bar-Sto or Storm Lake barrel, even though you shouldn't need to at all.
However my next M&P purchase, it will be an issue, I want to have the gun for many, many years. I also plan on getting the Apex 22lr conversion when it comes out, well unless price is outrageous, then I'll just get the M&P22 which I loved shooting. I want to get it right the first time. I was initially planning on getting another M&P9 4.25" or 9C. I did shoot the M&P9C with the X-Grip and loved it (well not stock trigger but planning on 2-3 lbs trigger when I'm done). Since I'll be reloading for 9 minor and 9 sub minor loads, there are no aftermarket recoil springs for the 9C. So that's out of the picture for now.
Since I already have three 9mm FS mags I was thinking maybe I should just get a M&P40 FS and get a 9mm conversion barrel that will fix the 9mm accuracy issue and be done with it. It's not going to get the 1.5" to 2.5" accuracy out to 25 yds. I expect compared to standard aftermarket barrels, but hopefully 2" to under 3" which will be fine for a drop-in (or semi) conversion barrel. I've been reading that 40 minor feels like less recoil at the same PF (Power Factor) than 9mm which surprises me. (don't know if true though Since my uncle already has a 40, was thinking of making some 40 minor and testing that theory before making the plunge. I will never shoot 40 major though because of my neck, so no matter what, that's out of the question. So if I wasn't planning on getting into reloading then I wouldn't even consider the 40 for one second. Owned a G23C Gen3 in .40 and even though it was compensated, it didn't seem to make a difference.
I'm really leaning towards the M&P40 FS now, buying from CDNN or similar I'll be able to put the extra money I saved toward the price of a 9mm conversion barrel.
MiamiCracker: Since this M&P9 accuracy issue IS a problem, I have been really researching the Gen 4 Glocks. I have shot the G17 Gen4 and it did have the extraction issues which was very, very annoying, but the Gen4 fells better in my hand now compared to the Gen3's, that's for sure. The extraction issues I could live with shortly, not as a carry or competition gun though. If Glocks fix didn't work in mine, I assume Apex will fix the Gen4 9mm's right though (from Apex's track record), don't have a clue what they'll charge though. I was also thinking of the G19 and the G22. However it appears that I'll have to buy aftermarket barrels even for the 9mm's since your not supposed to shoot lead out of the stock Glocks. Don't know how hard it is to use Flitz and other methods to prepare them for the lead (if don't go aftermarket right away) so they don't get much lead fouling and what not, but would rather just buy the barrels and not deal with it. If I got the G22, I'd have to get an aftermarket 40 barrel and a 9mm conversion, which would be around $975 when all is said and done ( that's with cheap trigger upgrade of Comp springs and Zev V4 Connector for $25 (very cheap trigger job though) ) . Seeing those prices I will not be going this route on the 40 Gen4 Glocks.
Of course after reading similar posts and this specifically from Hogsgunwild:
I think at any stage along the path of improving one's shooting abilities, one should always have the most accurate gun that is practical for self defense. Anything less just gives the shooter harder to decipher feedback.
For example, say the op is presently capable of a 10" group at 25 yards with the most accurate gun made or with a laser, ie: virtually no mechanical error. If he is shooting a gun that only groups, say, 8" at 25 yards, at times he will be 18 inches from the center of the target and at times when he did everything right he could still get feedback showing 8" off in any direction. Other times when he induces errors from improper technique, he may just be (incorrectly) rewarded with a bullseye hit. That is counter-productive and would be a huge waste of time to use a pistol like that in any type of accuracy / fundamentals training.
Well now this is well said, and drives the point home how accuracy CAN make you chase certain aspects of improving your shooting while you might be doing things right or wrong and might not know it.
Of course MiamiCracker, if your not going to be shooting past 15 yards at the range and it's not going to be used as a defensive pistol where you have neighbors very close by [apartment] (Hogsgunwild 18" scenario above applies) then a M&P9 4.25" should be good to go. If you do have close neighbors then a M&P9C will be the way to go if it'll be your HD gun.
Then again after reading Awesome1228 post on when it's all said and done you might want to consider a HK; USP, P30.... I don't like the way Sigs feel though, seem to bulky for me and haven't held a HK (bulky too ?) in years and never shot one.
So for me honestly, if the stock Glock barrels could shoot lead just fine I would seriously be considering getting a new Gen4 Glock right now instead of a new M&P9 (I'm trying to buy a few things that are made in the USA at least). The M&P just fits me very, very well though and I shoot them good, well up to 7 yards and 50 feet max. I really really like the Apex parts also, that FSS & Trigger is just great. However I'll probably go the Apex Comp AEK Trigger (maybe plastic one when it comes out) and then get the AEK Comp spring kit. Followed by less weight recoil springs for reloads, of course if I just get a M&P9, I will go one higher to have a slightly higher dwell time.
Also the comment on internet posts, while it's true you have to take things with a grain of salt. I belong to over 20 gun forums and I've found M4C to be one of the best. However I guess not everyone reads and knows most of the users posts then I guess for some topics (like this one, but would get very tedious) it'd be nice to give a slight background as only very few people read and remember all the players here. Also MiamiCracker, I know you brought up XDM9 which I've owned before and IIRC you said correctly, it does have a higher bore axis than the M&P and Glock for sure. The XDM grip felt great in my hand, but after shooting the M&P9 and M&P9C back to back I just shot the M&P much better and sold the XDM9 right away after that.
I'd look to see if your LGS & Range has manufacturer reps come by once a year where they come by and bring 50 to 100 handguns, long guns to test out for free. Which mine does and it's what's gotten me to shoot many, many guns and purchase some. Even if you had to drive 60 miles it'd be worth it if you could shoot like 3-7 different types of guns, of course best to go with someone if planning on shooting multiple ones then you'd have 2 at a time in your lane.
Of course just as I'm finally posting this; I'm listening to Handgun World Podcast Ep 153 (37 min.) where listener talks about what happens to your shots when you "miss your targets". Well this really plays into accuracy and takes Hogsgunwild 18" scenario at 25 yds. to feet, or multiple feet if your bullet keeps going and goes 1/4 or 1/2 a mile. Like when shooting at my friends dad's place in the country, still houses around (yes we factored that in), but in real defensive shooting it CAN come into play. I think it's very low, but it will happen to some. To be honest if Apex's new locking block works great, S&W should buy the licensing rights to it and anyone who requests it for the M&P 9mm's only should get one in the mail.
Good to hear Grant. Under 1", damn.
MiamiCracker
05-30-12, 11:22
@ Skunk Pilot, the pistol will be for range use an home defense (in an apartment). Sorry I failed to mention this earlier
Skunk Pilot..
One thing to consider..you mentioned you'd consider getting a Glock but was concerned about it's inability to shoot cast lead bullets. Myself I reload, and have for 31yrs I was shooting cast lead in my 9mm's and changed to plated bullets. My reasoning is this..price.. I can get 124gr cast lead bullets locally for $80/k (or $85.20 including OH sales tax of 6.5%) or I can buy 124gr plated bullets online for (If I remember correctly) $85/k delivered..(correction..$83/k)and these can be shot in a Glock, HK, or any pistol all day long..The difference in price between the two is so small it really is'nt a consideration..The plated bullets win every time. If you want the Glock get it, shoot plated bullets in your loads for practice, and a good known quality factory loaded JHP's for carry HD, (like a Speer Gold Dot)No need to buy aftermarket barrels. Just remember use cast lead data with plated bullets and don't overcrimp, figure a crimp of .375-376, and you should be fine. Also check out Brian Enos's forums lots of info on loading 9mm over there..
I was looking at the G19 online last night, I gonna consider that along with the 9c.
You can't go wrong with either. Buy with confidence!
Hogsgunwild
05-30-12, 14:55
Hey, thanks for the compliment Skunk Pilot. I think my math may be a bit off but my point was made. Re-reading my post I think that the shooter's 10 inch groups would only put him off 5 inches from center but the gun's 8 inch groupings could still put the shooter off 8 more inches in any direction for a total of 13 inches from center, not the 18 that I had mentioned. Trying to get my point across but I don't mean to provide misinformation to anyone. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. The point is that an inaccurate gun derails the feedback.
MiamiCracker
05-30-12, 15:28
As for Glock, are the Gen 3s less problematic than the Gen 4s?
I have no way of gauging your skill and you've given no way of ascertaining your methodology. I will say that I'm skeptical of your claim. Why would you buy, and keep buying 10 pistols when not a single one shoots where you want it? There must have been something that you liked about the gun.
I've owned 5, all of them shoot well within acceptable accuracy standards. Two of which are capable of cloverleafs at 25 yards off the bench.
Individual samples and anecdotal stories such as above should be viewed with skepticism when the VAST majority shoot just fine. Until someone shows me some objective data with a verifiable methodology to the contrary, my suspicion remains that most of the accuracy "problems" associated with the M&P are shooter related.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=97829&highlight=m%26p+accuracy
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=106346&highlight=m%26p+accuracy
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=104659&highlight=m%26p+accuracy
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=64205&highlight=m%26p+randy+barrel
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81124&highlight=m%26p+randy+barrel
there's quite a long story to this m&p full size 9mm accuracy issue. from what i've read it is indeed an issue. there are at least two products that seek to resolve the issue. one that has been tested already and apparently does solve the issue.
whether or not these cases are "just" anecdotal or not is up to the individual to decide. however there are several trustworthy people who have put in their time and effort to diagnose and others who have put in their time and effort to resolve.
As for Glock, are the Gen 3s less problematic than the Gen 4s?
it is not a problem of generation. it's a problem of manufacture date, this manufacture date may coincide with the release of the generation 4 glock, but the latest production generation 3 glocks exhibit the same issues.
brickboy240
05-30-12, 16:00
True!
I have a April 2012 made gen 3 G19 and it has the same ejection issues.
Currently waiting for the Apex extractor.
Buy an older Glock....seriously.
- brickboy240
You cant go wrong with the Glock, or the M&P.
If you somehow manage to get a "bad" M&P, there's always ways to remedy the situation, be it warranty, fitted barrel, or selling the pistol itself.
Shoot them, decide what you like, buy that.
MiamiCracker
05-30-12, 17:50
I am starting to notice that some of these guns mentioned here need aftermarket parts to get them up to snuff. Crazy
I am starting to notice that some of these guns mentioned here need aftermarket parts to get them up to snuff. Crazy
I wouldn't worry about that right now. Go out and shoot them, whatever you get will work out of the box (guaranteed)
decide based on how you shoot it, how it feels in your hand, and how it suits your needs
MiamiCracker
05-30-12, 18:11
I wouldn't worry about that right now. Go out and shoot them, whatever you get will work out of the box (guaranteed)
decide based on how you shoot it, how it feels in your hand, and how it suits your needs
True, by that time I would have saved enough for upgrades
Awesome1228
05-30-12, 18:19
I am starting to notice that some of these guns mentioned here need aftermarket parts to get them up to snuff. Crazy
That is a point I was trying to make in an earlier post. You may get an M&P or Glock out of the box that is fine, but then again you may not, and it will require more money to get it right. If you are going to pay $500-$550 for an M&P, another $200 for a new barrel, you are in Sig 226 range and creeping close to HK P30 range, both superior firearms (in my mind, anyway) that don't have possible problems out of the gate and will not need anything to make it run correctly.
Shoot them all, if you can. If the M&P truly is the gun for you, then it's worth paying for the new barrel, if you need it. If it's not the right gun for you, then it doesn't matter if it is within your price range or not.
MiamiCracker
05-30-12, 18:39
Thanks for all the replies guys, I guess just about everything has been covered. Next step is renting some pistols in the near future
Walther PPQ was my answer to a handgun that doesn't have any problems and is in the $500 price range. It is the most accurate poly pistol I've ever shot and has the best trigger, grip and build quality by far in its price range. A set of $75 night sites would finish it off and that's only if u want them. At least give it a try, you won't be sorry, take it from someone who has owned several of them all.
MiamiCracker
05-30-12, 19:05
Walther PPQ was my answer to a handgun that doesn't have any problems and is in the $500 price range. It is the most accurate poly pistol I've ever shot and has the best trigger, grip and build quality by far in its price range. A set of $75 night sites would finish it off and that's only if u want them. At least give it a try, you won't be sorry, take it from someone who has owned several of them all.
Just took a look at it, wow I will research this gun further
Just took a look at it, wow I will research this gun further
I happen to own one of these as well..Between my G19 and the PPQ, I have a hard time deciding which I like better.Both are very good pistols..The PPQ has a amazing trigger, and frankly, justs needs a good set of night sights. No issues that I know of. It is slightly bigger than a G19, Still, I feel it would make a good CCW.Very accurate out of the box, over 2500 rnds on mine, and no failures..The only drawbacks are, price of mags, and support,(parts, warranty) is through S&W, as they (as far as I know) are the sole importer. Aftermarket sight slection is limited. If you're a lefty, this pistol should work very well for you, as it has Ambi controls.
Just took a look at it, wow I will research this gun further
I will say that the PPQ probably has the best trigger out of the box on the market right now.
Thats just my opinion of course, which, depending on who you ask may or may not be worth much :p
The only thing with the PPQ is the aftermarket options, I havent looked, but are there alot of holster options? Sights? Are mags easy to come by?
Barring that, its very comfy, points very well, and the trigger is like I said, awesome.
Hogsgunwild
05-30-12, 19:38
Walther PPQ was my answer to a handgun that doesn't have any problems and is in the $500 price range. It is the most accurate poly pistol I've ever shot and has the best trigger, grip and build quality by far in its price range. A set of $75 night sites would finish it off and that's only if u want them. At least give it a try, you won't be sorry, take it from someone who has owned several of them all.
I totally agree. My PPQ has a good case of ammo through it already with zero malfunctions. Very accurate and I am starting to like the trigger even more that my Apex FSS and trigger kit in my M&Ps.
I never thought of the gun as "snappy" in recoil as is often reported until I shot it side by side with my M&P FS 9MM for a couple of range sessions in a row. The snappiness doesn't matter to me since 1.) it is just a 9MM anyhow and 2.) it goes back on target very fast and accurately (more so than my M&P) when run at speed. The PPQ is a real bargain.
Hogsgunwild
05-30-12, 19:49
The only thing with the PPQ is the aftermarket options, I havent looked, but are there alot of holster options? Sights? Are mags easy to come by?
Barring that, its very comfy, points very well, and the trigger is like I said, awesome.
My H&K USP Kydex holster fits my PPQ perfectly and my M&P Kydex holsters are very close. I have forgotten already which guns but I recall that some manufacturers market their holsters for other pistols as PPQ holsters also as they work so well.
Factory night sights, Meprolights and Trijicons. Not much else yet?
Mags are tough to find. I ordered four from Grabagun and it turned out that they were not really in stock. I cancelled the order and need to keep looking.
My H&K USP Kydex holster fits my PPQ perfectly and my M&P Kydex holsters are very close. I have forgotten already which guns but I recall that some manufacturers market their holsters for other pistols as PPQ holsters also as they work so well.
Factory night sights, Meprolights and Trijicons. Not much else yet?
Mags are tough to find. I ordered four from Grabagun and it turned out that they were not really in stock. I cancelled the order and need to keep looking.
You should check with forum sponsors for mags and NS's for the PPQ. ;)
C4
My H&K USP Kydex holster fits my PPQ perfectly and my M&P Kydex holsters are very close. I have forgotten already which guns but I recall that some manufacturers market their holsters for other pistols as PPQ holsters also as they work so well.
Factory night sights, Meprolights and Trijicons. Not much else yet?
Mags are tough to find. I ordered four from Grabagun and it turned out that they were not really in stock. I cancelled the order and need to keep looking.
Well that answers that question! Good to know.
I think I own the only accurate M&P 9mm, a 9L that shoots several loads under 2" at 20 yards. My .40 FS on the other hand is just mediocre, with the best loads running 3" to 4". I also have factory .357 and 9mm barrels for it. It shoots better with the .357 barrel, but the 9mm performance has been underwhelming. Lots of poi shifts with different loads in the .40 and 9mm barrels.
OTOH, my .45 FS is a tack driver.
Hogsgunwild
05-31-12, 12:06
You should check with forum sponsors for mags and NS's for the PPQ. ;)
C4
Thanks Grant, I usually check your site first. The PPQ magazine order that I placed was about two months ago and I had to cancel it as the mags were not really in stock as their website showed. Perhaps you did not have the mags two months ago either? I always prefer a forum sponsor and a known entity such as yourself. I had looked everywhere at the time and had to try something new. It turned out to be too good to be true.
I agree with all of the comments regarding the PPQ. I decided to go to a 9mm recently, and after shooting the Glock 19, M&P9, PPQ, and a few others, I was completely sold on the PPQ.
So far it has been 100% reliable, very accurate, and has great ergos with a fantastic trigger. For the price, I don't think you can get a better out of the box 9mm pistol.
Skunk Pilot
06-01-12, 20:02
Skunk Pilot..
One thing to consider..you mentioned you'd consider getting a Glock but was concerned about it's inability to shoot cast lead bullets. Myself I reload, and have for 31yrs I was shooting cast lead in my 9mm's and changed to plated bullets. My reasoning is this..price.. I can get 124gr cast lead bullets locally for $80/k (or $85.20 including OH sales tax of 6.5%) or I can buy 124gr plated bullets online for (If I remember correctly) $85/k delivered..(correction..$83/k)and these can be shot in a Glock, HK, or any pistol all day long..The difference in price between the two is so small it really is'nt a consideration..The plated bullets win every time. If you want the Glock get it, shoot plated bullets in your loads for practice, and a good known quality factory loaded JHP's for carry HD, (like a Speer Gold Dot)No need to buy aftermarket barrels. Just remember use cast lead data with plated bullets and don't overcrimp, figure a crimp of .375-376, and you should be fine. Also check out Brian Enos's forums lots of info on loading 9mm over there..
Thanks for this. I was planning on saving even more money and just shooting just the lead ones, well half the time. (??) However I did want to do research on the effects of lead exposure as I already have enough medical problems that effect me every second of the day. I was looking at Berry 147gr from TJConevera (http://www.tjconevera.com/berrys-9mm-147-g.html) for $94/1000 with SH. Also just straight lead 147gr ones from JKBullets (https://jkbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_16&products_id=9) for $75/1000 w-SH.
....
With M&P's going for under $450, adding a $200 dollar fitted barrel brings the price tag up to $650 (about $100 over a GEN 4). Is that price increase worth it? IMHO, yes. For two main reasons. First, my testing shows that the Storm Lake fitted barrels are capable of producing UNDER one inch groups. Second, I believe that the M&P is a more ergonomic pistol and has the BEST integration of the CT laser grips.
C4
Wow sub 1" groups are really, really amazing. Makes me rethink wanting the M&P40 now. Unless your going to also get oversized barrels for a 9mm conversion sometime here, then I'll just wait to order a new one from you. It's still $100 more than a Glock, but at least I'll get something that I really want since the ergos just fit me a little better than the Glocks. Granted people would still pay for 1" to sub 1" groups if you were still getting 2.0" to 2.25" groups out of a Glock or whatever, not really that many (?) but I'd still do it if I had the extra money laying around.
there's quite a long story to this m&p full size 9mm accuracy issue. from what i've read it is indeed an issue. there are at least two products that seek to resolve the issue. one that has been tested already and apparently does solve the issue.
Thanks so much for the links. Grant you should of just posted the link for the "First look, Storm Lake Fitted barrels for S&W M&P!" (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=104659) that you posted.
I don't know how I missed that topic you created, especially since I was searching for it. Must of went to another site and got sidetracked or something.
Grant I'll post and ask questions on the barrels in that other thread you created.
Skunk Pilot,
I tried the Berry's 147's from TJ Conevera, my results with them were ok..I've also tried the 147's from X-treme (TJ has these as well) I think these are a much more accurate bullet..But, try the Barry's yourself,first, and then buy 500 X-treme and try them, see what you think. I've been using the 124 X-treme plated Rn that TJ has,.. I've had excellant results..
As far as lead exposure is concerned, If you're shooting outside, It should'nt be a problem. Where it starts being a problem is in a indoor range, The danger of lead exposure there, is inhaling the fumes from yours and everyone else's pistol, rifle, being fired., Handling lead bullets is'nt a problem,just wash your hands thourghly after you're done loading, After 31yrs, I've handled probably hundreds of thousands of pistol,rifle bullets. I've had NO health problems from handling lead bullets. If for whatever reason you're worried about it, get a box of examination gloves and wear them when you're loading, you can also get your Dr. to order a blood test, and check your levels of lead. Your best chance of lead exposure is in a indoor range that has a less than optimum ventlation system. And even then, the people that really need to worry are the employees who are there 3-5 days a week, 4-8 hrs a day or more. Hopefully, they're doing regular blood tests. Most folks are only going to be there a hour or two, and usually not every week, so lead exposure would still probably be low. Since I don't know how well they do or don't take care of their ventlation systems, I avoid indoor ranges..
Skunk Pilot
06-01-12, 23:07
@ Skunk Pilot, the pistol will be for range use an home defense (in an apartment). Sorry I failed to mention this earlier
Well since your considering the M&P9C then the accuracy should be better than the longer barreled ones since it's a shorter barrel and less chance of the dwelling being an issue. If yours isn't and you want then you could just get that Apex Locking Block (I assume it'll give sub 3", no clue though) when it comes out then. I still think the M&P's are better overall, not withstanding the accuracy issues.
I remember the range officer at my LGS&R saying that he shoots some 9mm that is only 100gr, so it apparently doesn't go through even sheet rock or something like that. That really intrigued me. Just did a Goog search and I see maybe this is what he was talking about: Corbon (https://www.shopcorbon.com/Glaser-PowRBall/9mm-Luger-Plus-P-100gr-PowRBall/PB09100-20/600/Product) or something similar.
On the Glock and M&P's you do not NEED to get aftermarket parts for them, really 90-95% of people really don't need to. However the accuracy issue can make a difference in a shooting. It may only be 1 out of 100/500 or 1000 shootings, but why take the chance if your gun only shoots 6"-8" out to 25 yards. Just watching all the cop TV shows and putting yourself in a situa
I totally agree. My PPQ has a good case of ammo through it already with zero malfunctions. Very accurate and I am starting to like the trigger even more that my Apex FSS and trigger kit in my M&Ps.
I never thought of the gun as "snappy" in recoil as is often reported until I shot it side by side with my M&P FS 9MM for a couple of range sessions in a row. The snappiness doesn't matter to me since 1.) it is just a 9MM anyhow and 2.) it goes back on target very fast and accurately (more so than my M&P) when run at speed. The PPQ is a real bargain.
The range guy I was talking about, he let me pull the trigger on his PPQ and while it was a good stock trigger, I really liked my FSS & Trigger on the M&P9 much better. I personally don't care about reset though, rather have a much shorter trigger pull overall. My FSS & Trigger was set to 3 lbs on top of polishing everything according to that Dan Burwell M&P Trigger job (https://rapidshare.com/files/485716391/M_P_Trigger_Job__by_Burwell__NICE__p_46_w-Bookmarks__d04-13-11__.pdf). It seemed like it had a really long trigger pull, which with the reset being small I know with enough practice I might be able to shoot fast just going to reset. But with my hands and wrists, I highly doubt it, that being said I'm sure 95% plus easily could. Well I guess I should say I couldn't consistently. Of course if I had the PPQ or the Apex RAM in an M&P then maybe I would care, don't really know until you shoot many rounds. However I still would really want an aftermarket trigger for the PPQ to shorten the pull by half and have less lbs.
Next time I go to the range I'll ask the range officer if I can shoot his PPQ like 10-15 rounds since I usually go right before they close and am one of the last ones there. I'll also ask exactly what ammo he was talking about.
Hogsgunwild
06-01-12, 23:19
Yes and actually I could go either way and have things that I prefer on each trigger. My 9MM and .45 compact and midsize .45 M&Ps seem perfect with the FSS and trigger kits on them so, once again, my 9MM M&P FS has made everything associated with it seem like a turd in a punchbowl.
I could care less about resets as well. I do like resets when shooting slowly for accuracy.
Skunk Pilot
06-01-12, 23:20
Skunk Pilot,
I tried the Berry's 147's from TJ Conevera, my results with them were ok..I've also tried the 147's from X-treme (TJ has these as well) I think these are a much more accurate bullet..But, try the Barry's yourself,first, and then buy 500 X-treme and try them, see what you think. I've been using the 124 X-treme plated Rn that TJ has,.. I've had excellent results..
As far as lead exposure is concerned, If you're shooting outside, It shouldn't be a problem. Where it starts being a problem is in a indoor range, The danger of lead exposure there, is inhaling the fumes from yours and everyone else's pistol, rifle, being fired., Handling lead bullets isn't a problem, just wash your hands thourghly after you're done loading, After 31yrs, I've handled probably hundreds of thousands of pistol,rifle bullets. I've had NO health problems from handling lead bullets. If for whatever reason you're worried about it, get a box of examination gloves and wear them when you're loading, you can also get your Dr. to order a blood test, and check your levels of lead. Your best chance of lead exposure is in a indoor range that has a less than optimum ventilation system. And even then, the people that really need to worry are the employees who are there 3-5 days a week, 4-8 hrs a day or more. Hopefully, they're doing regular blood tests. Most folks are only going to be there a hour or two, and usually not every week, so lead exposure would still probably be low. Since I don't know how well they do or don't take care of their ventilation systems, I avoid indoor ranges..
Thanks for that info, I didn't even see the X-Treme bullets (http://www.tjconevera.com/buandbrco.html) before on TJC's site. If I do end up going the M&P40 and 9mm Conversion route I'll need brass also for the 40 so this package will work great. So glad you posted this. I've been taking notes and breaking the costs down to see what it'll cost me to make the first 2800 rounds I fired including all a new Hornady LNL with 9mm and other things need to make the first run of 9mm. Of course I'm using the 2800 rounds as someone said he can get 2800 rounds from 1 lb. of powder making 9 minor or below, which is only 2.8gr he uses, which I know is very low. Haven't added the costs of the 40 stuff yet at all though.
I mostly shoot indoors so that is good to know. I guess I should just bite the bullet and get the plated ones then. No need to cause anymore problems for myself or others for that matter.
--
Hogsgunwild. Thanks for the post. That's very interesting that all your other M&P's are good with the FSS & Trigger. Hmm, if I just decide to get a 9mm and not the 40 I think I really should at least shoot the PPQ, if not from the range officer then rent one. Of course if he let's me shoot 10-15 rounds, that's not really that much anyways, so probably should just rent one then. Or hopefully find someone to meet up with and see if I can shoot theirs. Seems people in the lanes are always shooting each others guns. I liked letting people shoot my M&P9L with the FSS.
It appears your M&P9 is just flat out cursed. Every gun can't be made the same, or maybe they essentially could if they spent 5x more on the best CNC machines, but no clue. Yours must be out of spec in every way, part A is out of spec by .0050 and the next one is also, except it's out of spec going left instead of right that would make part A be fine.... You get the idea.
MiamiCracker
06-16-12, 14:17
Update. After a lot of doin research I ended up buying a Walther PPQ 9mm. Thanks to all that contributed to this post.
Update. After a lot of doin research I ended up buying a Walther PPQ 9mm. Thanks to all that contributed to this post.
Good choice!!
MiamiCracker
06-16-12, 17:03
Good choice!!
Thanks, it was kind of a no brainer.
Gary1911A1
06-17-12, 08:24
Walther knows how to make good barrels. Maybe they should make the M&P 9MM Barrels.:D
OK...what am I missing...???? I have a M&P 9c and it shoots great....I haven't shot it in a while...read this thread and went back to the range and can't find fault with this guns accuracy. This is actually my wifes gun and she did a lady's course with it in March and through all the drills she did great, always on paper and with a couple drills was one of the most accurate with the M&P9c.
OK...what am I missing...???? I have a M&P 9c and it shoots great....I haven't shot it in a while...read this thread and went back to the range and can't find fault with this guns accuracy. This is actually my wifes gun and she did a lady's course with it in March and through all the drills she did great, always on paper and with a couple drills was one of the most accurate with the M&P9c.
The FS9 M&P's have a random accuracy issue that becomes rather apparent out past 15yds..It's been discussed at length. The M&PC's don't seem to be affected by this issue, mostly just FS 9's..
i had a pro 9L for a while and it was very accurate, even out to 25 yds. has any accuracy issue been seen out of this model? i really liked it and i thought the trigger with the pro sear was better than the apex units i have tried in friends and co-workers m&p's.
i traded the pro 9L because the slight roundness of the backstrap in the rear did not let me get a high grip and the slight roundness on the sides of the grip led to my finger not sitting comfortably on the trigger. (i primarily shoot 1911's and hk's)
i also saw reference to the thumb safety model being better than the regular striker model. any idea why this is?
OT, does someone make a replacement backstrap that is flat in the rear and on the sides? i would like to revisit a pro 9L but the grip issue was a deal breaker.
OT, does someone make a replacement backstrap that is flat in the rear and on the sides? i would like to revisit a pro 9L but the grip issue was a deal breaker.
You could pretty easily modify one yourself to the shape you desire. And the backstraps take stippling well. Also, they are inexpensive to replace if you f it up.
beschatten
06-20-12, 08:00
6 pages read,
tl;dr > if you want an m&p, consider the 40 or 45 until s&w fixes the 9
> consider a walther ppq in 9 if you really want a 9mm.
mho, get an h&k and/or sig.
MiamiCracker
06-20-12, 08:39
6 pages read,
tl;dr > if you want an m&p, consider the 40 or 45 until s&w fixes the 9
> consider a walther ppq in 9 if you really want a 9mm.
mho, get an h&k and/or sig.
If you have read more closely I have already posted I bought a Walther PPQ
DAVID RICHARDS
06-20-12, 11:46
Thank goodness my M&P 9C has not had the accuracy issues. It's a little tack driver. Put in the APEX Defense/Carry set up and the trigger is excellent. Better than my PPQ. And that says a lot. The PPQ has the best out of the box trigger of any polymer gun I've owned.
beschatten
06-20-12, 14:01
If you have read more closely I have already posted I bought a Walther PPQ
oh i'm sorry i didn't know this thread was entirely about you, as opposed to other potential buyers that may share and/or have shared the same concerns as you have.
Gary1911A1
06-20-12, 14:46
Shot my M&P9 in 4.25" yesterday at the range from the bench. Sorry to report 6" groups. Shot a FN9 same day with same Atlanta Arms 147gr. and got 3".
MiamiCracker
06-20-12, 14:52
oh i'm sorry i didn't know this thread was entirely about you, as opposed to other potential buyers that may share and/or have shared the same concerns as you have.
Well I was the one asking the question, the way you wrote your post made it seem it was directed towards me. Shit happens
So the M&P9c is a safe bet? I've got an M&P45 that's a tack driver, there's no problem there except the price of ammo. I guess I'll take a shot at the compact 9MM.
So the M&P9c is a safe bet? I've got an M&P45 that's a tack driver, there's no problem there except the price of ammo. I guess I'll take a shot at the compact 9MM.
I'd say it is..I don't recall too many people complaining about accuracy with the compacts..Ditto on the .45, I have a Mid, and have been having some feeding problems that I think I have narrowed down to the extractor,(figure I'll replace with a Apex unit,here shortly)But it is very accurate, and I'd like to hang on to it..
I've had 4 M&P 9 fullsize pistols. Two wouldn't group worth a damn at 25yrds benched. One was consistantly 6inches. My current one however consistently holds around 4inches benched using Blazer aluminum 115grn. My spent shell casings are dated from April 2012 for reference. It also has a much nicer trigger than my previous ones.
IMHO, there are very few things worse for a new shooter learning marksmanship than being uncertain why his groups don't shrink. Based on my personal experience, if you go with a 9 mm M&P you should consider how you might approach "is it a gun or is it me" question in the future. That future may be not too distant - or it may never come, depending on your dedication, talent, practice ethics etc.
P.S. I don't think I'd go with 0.40S&W caliber in any platform as a first pistol.
this is pretty easy to diagnose. shoot the pistol rested. if it's good enough then shoot off hand and compare groups.
or have someone you recognize as a superior shooter shoot the gun and have them compare it with their favorite pistol.
also, if it appears that accuracy is still not up to snuff, try another load. my M&P9 FS shoots well enough with all the cheap stuff I use for training but it's a damn laser with 124gr +P Golddots...
Even after a recent rebarreling by S&W, my 9mm (purchased in 2007) still shows unacceptable accuracy. No problem getting "X" ring shots at 20 yards with my Glock 17. The M&P is lucky to get into the "6" ring.
Even after a recent rebarreling by S&W, my 9mm (purchased in 2007) still shows unacceptable accuracy. No problem getting "X" ring shots at 20 yards with my Glock 17. The M&P is lucky to get into the "6" ring.
I wonder if you ask them to rebarrel it again but actually do a slide fit to the barrel if they'd do it. You could have Grant from G&R do it with a storm lake but as has been said before, after all is said and done right, you're in it at the cost at or near an HK. You'd think that after installing a new part to fix the problem and it still persists they'd be much more open and willing to take your gun in and take a little extra time to do it right. That said I'm not 100% on how S&W performs a fix on a claim. To myself at least, it would be a huge plus and testament to the company's CS.
Even after a recent rebarreling by S&W, my 9mm (purchased in 2007) still shows unacceptable accuracy. No problem getting "X" ring shots at 20 yards with my Glock 17. The M&P is lucky to get into the "6" ring.
Re-barrelling to a new twist rate really doesn't matter if the hood to slide fit is still loose.
C4
Larry Vickers
12-16-14, 10:43
The 9mm M&P is less accurate than virtually any of it competitors - it may still be more accurate than your skill level or you may not have the skill to truly test its accuracy but once you do you will find its inherent lack of accuracy a serious limitation
This is fact not fiction - your only choices are to re barrel it with a properly fit aftermarket barrel or go to a different platform
That is the reality of the situation
The 9mm M&P is less accurate than virtually any of it competitors - it may still be more accurate than your skill level or you may not have the skill to truly test its accuracy but once you do you will find its inherent lack of accuracy a serious limitation
This is fact not fiction - your only choices are to re barrel it with a properly fit aftermarket barrel or go to a different platform
That is the reality of the situation
1000+ to this. I enjoyed shooting the MP as a blaster and game gun where A zones or -0 zones were of primary concern. Once I got a bit better I chose to part ways. I used to attribute the lack of accuracy to my lack of skill and in retrospect I may have been selling myself short. Is it a horrible gun, not by any stretch of the imagination. The 2 my wife and I owned were 100% reliable out of the box. Even after I concluded that it wasn't my skill level causing the accuracy issue I didn't feel like I was in danger while carrying the gun. Nor did I feel like I was a threat to those around me should I need to defend myself. But for a little more you can get something that does things better.
Are most of these accuracy issues more common in the full size and compact guns or is this something that's equally common in the 9mm Shield variants as well? I ask because glocks and myself don't get along in the ergo department and the 9mm shield seemed like a good carry gun when I can't carry my VP9. I have no problem replacing parts for a gun that fits me well, but honestly, you shouldn't have to spend twice as much to rebuild a new gun to make it acceptable.
Are most of these accuracy issues more common in the full size and compact guns or is this something that's equally common in the 9mm Shield variants as well? I ask because glocks and myself don't get along in the ergo department and the 9mm shield seemed like a good carry gun when I can't carry my VP9. I have no problem replacing parts for a gun that fits me well, but honestly, you shouldn't have to spend twice as much to rebuild a new gun to make it acceptable.
The Shield is such a short barrel that I don't really think you're going for super tight accuracy, anyway.
The 9mm M&P is less accurate than virtually any of it competitors - it may still be more accurate than your skill level or you may not have the skill to truly test its accuracy but once you do you will find its inherent lack of accuracy a serious limitation
This is fact not fiction - your only choices are to re barrel it with a properly fit aftermarket barrel or go to a different platform
That is the reality of the situation
This pistol was obviously created as an SD weapon and we all know that reliability is often a compromise for precision. Is this really a legitimate argument to have about this pistol?
gunrunner505
12-31-14, 21:09
This pistol was obviously created as an SD weapon and we all know that reliability is often a compromise for precision. Is this really a legitimate argument to have about this pistol?
I think so.
You look at the contemporaries to the M&P9. H&K, Walther, Sig, even Glock, their accuracy is well above the older M&P9. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect your M&P to display equivalent accuracy from the factory.
This pistol was obviously created as an SD weapon and we all know that reliability is often a compromise for precision. Is this really a legitimate argument to have about this pistol?
Yes. the less accurate it is on the range, the worse it'll be if you actually need to use it. The reasoning here is, that under stress, you'll lose a lot of skill, so, let's say your pistol is shooting 3" at 15 yds at the range, under no stress..Under stress, that 3" can now be 6" or possibly more, It's to your benefit to have an a accurate pistol as you can possibly use.. The M&P is probably a good place to start for a beginner, but as Mr.Vickers pointed out, at some point as your skill level rises, it's lack of accuracy can hold you back. and the only options are to rebarrel it, or move on to another, more accurate platform.. There are quite a few pistols out there that out of the box, give up nothing in reliability to the M&P, and are far more accurate...
Have or have not the 9mm accuracy issues been resolved in the most recent generation of MPs?
it may still be more accurate than your skill level or you may not have the skill to truly test its accuracy but once you do you will find its inherent lack of accuracy a serious limitation
If it's an SD pistol, it's reliable, it's accurate beyond my skill level, it's in my appendix, I could care less about the rest.
Have or have not the 9mm accuracy issues been resolved in the most recent generation of MPs?
From what I can find out it's still a dice roll.. so to answer your question, no not really.. If you want a M&P, I'd get ahold of Grant, He'll at least go through his stock and check barrel/slide fit and get you one that's combat accurate...
PatrioticDisorder
01-01-15, 09:14
From what I can find out it's still a dice roll.. so to answer your question, no not really.. If you want a M&P, I'd get ahold of Grant, He'll at least go through his stock and check barrel/slide fit and get you one that's combat accurate...
The problem has been fixed for at least 1 1/2 years, it's been discussed ad nausem.
The problem has been fixed for at least 1 1/2 years, it's been discussed ad nausem.
I don't know..I guess it all depends on what you find acceptable.
PatrioticDisorder
01-01-15, 09:28
I don't know..I guess it all depends on what you find acceptable.
So why bash the gun if you don't know? The accuracy issue only effected full size 9mm guns, mainly with 115gr loads past 15 yards, 147gr never exhibited any accuracy issues out of a full size M&P (compacts were never effected). Now if you've tested a new production M&P from a ransom and its showing poor accuracy that would be interesting....
So why bash the gun if you don't know? The accuracy issue only effected full size 9mm guns, mainly with 115gr loads past 15 yards, 147gr never exhibited any accuracy issues out of a full size M&P (compacts were never effected). Now if you've tested a new production M&P from a ransom and its showing poor accuracy that would be interesting....
My FS9 didn't shoot 147's any better than 124's it was basically a 15yd at most gun.
At one time I had a FS9 and a Mid sized .45..The 9mm couldn't hit the broad side of a barn past 15yds and the .45 mags would get rounds stuck against each other inside the mag, rendering the mag useless on a regular basis.. That, and after about 2000rnds on it, It started for some reason, failing to feed, I went over the ammo (I reload) new mag springs, followers, new mags, no improvement. I gave up. So, yes, I had quite a bit of experience with M&P's I know full what I'm talking about.. I got rid of both..and moved on.. Funny, I bought a S&W mod 69 from Grant during his moving sale, and it's a tack driver. It's sad that S&W can't do the same for the M&P. Sometimes, I think S&W should stick with what they know...Revolvers...
PatrioticDisorder
01-01-15, 11:10
My FS9 didn't shoot 147's any better than 124's it was basically a 15yd at most gun.
At one time I had a FS9 and a Mid sized .45..The 9mm couldn't hit the broad side of a barn past 15yds and the .45 mags would get rounds stuck against each other inside the mag, rendering the mag useless on a regular basis.. That, and after about 2000rnds on it, It started for some reason, failing to feed, I went over the ammo (I reload) new mag springs, followers, new mags, no improvement. I gave up. So, yes, I had quite a bit of experience with M&P's I know full what I'm talking about.. I got rid of both..and moved on.. Funny, I bought a S&W mod 69 from Grant during his moving sale, and it's a tack driver. It's sad that S&W can't do the same for the M&P. Sometimes, I think S&W should stick with what they know...Revolvers...
You should try the new M&P 9mm FS, I'm 2 for 2 with good luck in the accuracy department (sold the CORE as optics aren't for me, but new owner competes and has nothing but praise for accuracy). M&P .45 ACP mags had garbage springs, another known issue which I believe (don't quote me on that one) has been corrected. Sucks when guns have issues, Smith has addressed all issues though which has made me pleased. Glock has had it's fair share of issues as well, most of which have been corrected. Really the only gun manufacturer I trust at release is H&K and so far my VP9 has not disappointed.
You should try the new M&P 9mm FS, I'm 2 for 2 with good luck in the accuracy department (sold the CORE as optics aren't for me, but new owner competes and has nothing but praise for accuracy). M&P .45 ACP mags had garbage springs, another known issue which I believe (don't quote me on that one) has been corrected. Sucks when guns have issues, Smith has addressed all issues though which has made me pleased. Glock has had it's fair share of issues as well, most of which have been corrected. Really the only gun manufacturer I trust at release is H&K and so far my VP9 has not disappointed.
I know, I tried a G19 later on and I really liked the gun, but it was one that liked to throw brass at me.. It went down the road after trying three extractors, two ejectors while Apex's extractor stopped the BTF, it introduced a new issue.. double feeds.. Which after fitting the extractor following Apex's instructions still persisted.. It's possible that pistol couldn't be fixed, I don't know, I got rid of it as well. Right now, I have 2 VP9's as well as a HK45t, and a hk45ct, All of them work, work well with no real issues, and all are very accurate. So, at this point I don't see myself going back to a M&P for any reason..
The accuracy issue only effected full size 9mm guns, mainly with 115gr loads past 15 yards, 147gr never exhibited any accuracy issues out of a full size M&P (compacts were never effected). ...
In my experience, 147's were no more accurate than 124s or 115s in both an M&P FS and Pro 5" 9mm. Mine shot 147s into about 8" for 10-rounds.
6" groups at 25 yards for 10-rounds was best case, with Speer 124 gr Gold Dots.
They also shot literally anything high, as much as 6" or more depending on the load.
These were 2009 - 2011 'circa guns. I'd like to see some of these new "fixed" guns shot by someone that knows how too, as nothing I've seen online touting these new guns being more accurate has impressed me or convinced me to play the M&P accuracy lottery again. Great platform, had lots of potential that was squandered by S&W.
The 9mm M&P is less accurate than virtually any of it competitors - it may still be more accurate than your skill level or you may not have the skill to truly test its accuracy but once you do you will find its inherent lack of accuracy a serious limitation
This is fact not fiction - your only choices are to re barrel it with a properly fit aftermarket barrel or go to a different platform
That is the reality of the situation
There you have it, an expert opinion from a respected firearms trainer.
I am not going to buy a new car or truck knowing that I will have to replace the engine to gain the performance I expect, I will purchase the car or truck that meets my needs and expectations. If I immediately have to start swapping parts to gain acceptable accuracy from any new firearm, I will purchase a different platform.
PatrioticDisorder
01-02-15, 16:12
In my experience, 147's were no more accurate than 124s or 115s in both an M&P FS and Pro 5" 9mm. Mine shot 147s into about 8" for 10-rounds.
6" groups at 25 yards for 10-rounds was best case, with Speer 124 gr Gold Dots.
They also shot literally anything high, as much as 6" or more depending on the load.
These were 2009 - 2011 'circa guns. I'd like to see some of these new "fixed" guns shot by someone that knows how too, as nothing I've seen online touting these new guns being more accurate has impressed me or convinced me to play the M&P accuracy lottery again. Great platform, had lots of potential that was squandered by S&W.
http://youtu.be/02Lo2qpvu5k
You can skip to around 6:45 if you just want to see performance with accuracy...
There you have it, an expert opinion from a respected firearms trainer.
I am not going to buy a new car or truck knowing that I will have to replace the engine to gain the performance I expect, I will purchase the car or truck that meets my needs and expectations. If I immediately have to start swapping parts to gain acceptable accuracy from any new firearm, I will purchase a different platform.
Yep. Especially if it's something you want to keep long-term. I'm with you.
plouffedaddy
01-02-15, 18:59
http://youtu.be/02Lo2qpvu5k
You can skip to around 6:45 if you just want to see performance with accuracy...
Hey that's me :cool:
Embedded:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02Lo2qpvu5k
PatrioticDisorder
01-02-15, 20:16
Yep, very well done I might add & good demonstration of the improved accuracy of the M&Ps.
patriot_man
01-02-15, 22:01
Have or have not the 9mm accuracy issues been resolved in the most recent generation of MPs?
Apparently not. I saw some buzz about Chris Costa recently saying something about 9mm M&P's not being up to snuff. Well I checked out his facebook to see what all this talk was about and it seems that he's seen a number of M&P 9's grouping like shotgun shot and producing key holes. Apparently this is after a few 100 rounds.
I've also seen a S&W shield without rifling. Not sure what was up with that.
http://youtu.be/02Lo2qpvu5k
You can skip to around 6:45 if you just want to see performance with accuracy...
What were the dimensions of the steel you shot at 50 meters? What group size will it shoot on paper at 25 meters? What group size will it shoot at 25 meters after 2,000 rounds?
I must have been one lucky dude, because I have bought 4 and all have been dead nuts on. And I bought them all about a year apart. My 5 inch pro is a laser beam.
So the M&P9c is a safe bet? I've got an M&P45 that's a tack driver, there's no problem there except the price of ammo. I guess I'll take a shot at the compact 9MM.
My sample of one is good. Neat little pistol.
PatrioticDisorder
01-03-15, 07:38
What were the dimensions of the steel you shot at 50 meters? What group size will it shoot on paper at 25 meters? What group size will it shoot at 25 meters after 2,000 rounds?
Not my video but for a handgun to go 5 for 5 on a steel silhouette off hand at 50 meters it's accurate.
I'm not going to say that there were never any accuracy issues with some 9mm barrels. The fact of the matter however is that the average gun owner/armchair cowboy is not capable of shooting a 2 inch group at 25 yards with any handgun. That being said, I believe that Glocks because of their trigger design are more forgiving of a shooters poor technique than an M&P. The way their factory sears are designed gives the M&P a heavy trigger pull/trigger break which I believe causes the shooter to pull shots. That is why a lot of people report being able to hold tight groups at 7-10 yards but not at 25 because the pull is magnified over distance. The good news is that I believe that the Apex hard sear is the solution to the M&P triggger\ accuracy issue. I fully agree that S&W should correct this issue at the factory but if you are already invested in the platform I figure what's $40 and 10 minutes installation time to make the gun what it should be.
Did you have a chance to do any accuracy testing on paper to see what group sizes are like at say 25yds? By the way you put out some of my favorite videos on YouTube.
Hey that's me :cool:
Embedded:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02Lo2qpvu5k
I'm not going to say that there were never any accuracy issues with some 9mm barrels. The fact of the matter however is that the average gun owner/armchair cowboy is not capable of shooting a 2 inch group at 25 yards with any handgun. That being said, I believe that Glocks because of their trigger design are more forgiving of a shooters poor technique than an M&P. The way their factory sears are designed gives the M&P a heavy trigger pull/trigger break which I believe causes the shooter to pull shots. That is why a lot of people report being able to hold tight groups at 7-10 yards but not at 25 because the pull is magnified over distance. The good news is that I believe that the Apex hard sear is the solution to the M&P triggger\ accuracy issue. I fully agree that S&W should correct this issue at the factory but if you are already invested in the platform I figure what's $40 and 10 minutes installation time to make the gun what it should be.
people always bring up the fact that the shooter is not capable of the mechanical accuracy of the gun. that may be so... but if your gun is not mechanically accurate, your group will be worse whether you're a robot or a soup sandwich.
plouffedaddy
01-03-15, 16:04
What were the dimensions of the steel you shot at 50 meters? What group size will it shoot on paper at 25 meters? What group size will it shoot at 25 meters after 2,000 rounds?
Pretty sure that's the 8x12 static from shoot steel.com I have tons of steel though and I'm not 100% on that as that portion was shot a couple months ago.....
plouffedaddy
01-03-15, 16:05
Did you have a chance to do any accuracy testing on paper to see what group sizes are like at say 25yds? By the way you put out some of my favorite videos on YouTube.
I don't, sorry. I didn't think this would be such a debate or I would have done so.
Thanks.
I've got a Pro 5" without any accuracy issues from 11/11. I reload 135 gr bullets since it likes those more than 147, 124, or 115. However, it shoots Speer Gold Dot 147's in 2" groups at 25 yds. The 135 reloads are closer to 2.5-3" groups. The groups are shot off my range bag. This works for me.
I must have been one lucky dude, because I have bought 4 and all have been dead nuts on. And I bought them all about a year apart. My 5 inch pro is a laser beam.
M&P9 FS 10 & 15 yds
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1321/4777050/24528930/408515797.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1321/4777050/24528930/408515798.jpg
7 & 3 yds
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1321/4777050/24528930/408997161.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1321/4777050/24528930/408997164.jpg
M&P9 LE FS from Grant. APEX Duty Carry kit and Trijicon Orange HD sights dated Sept 2013, PPU 124gr FMJ
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1321/4777050/9916512/409342947.jpg
The 9mm M&P is less accurate than virtually any of it competitors - it may still be more accurate than your skill level or you may not have the skill to truly test its accuracy but once you do you will find its inherent lack of accuracy a serious limitation
This is fact not fiction - your only choices are to re barrel it with a properly fit aftermarket barrel or go to a different platform
That is the reality of the situation
==================
This quote defines my capability and probably those who do not want to admit it.
I think M&P 9mm accuracy is probably one of the most discussed topics on this as well as several other forums. Unfortunately the guns earned their bad rep (in 9mm. Not .40 or .45). The M&P is a great gun in many ways (I love my .40) but many people are leary of buying a 9mm that won't hit the broad side of a barn without sinking in half the price of the total purchase price of the gun to get a fitted barrel to get decent accuracy. Prominent people like Larry Vickers have very recently said their accuracy is a serious limitation. Now S&W and many others say the problem is fixed but I think people want some verification (say a few range reports with pictures documenting 5 shot groups at 25 yards) before people are willing to jump back in. As Ronald Reagan said, "Trust, but verify."
urbantactic
01-11-15, 14:37
M&P9 FS 10 & 15 yds
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1321/4777050/24528930/408515797.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1321/4777050/24528930/408515798.jpg
7 & 3 yds
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1321/4777050/24528930/408997161.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1321/4777050/24528930/408997164.jpg
M&P9 LE FS from Grant. APEX Duty Carry kit and Trijicon Orange HD sights dated Sept 2013, PPU 124gr FMJ
Nice groups. The Apex DCAEK has helped quite a bit for the accuracy of my pistol.
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