View Full Version : M&P 9mm accuracy challenge
Does anyone own a M&P 9 that shoots multiple loads, to the same point of impact at 25 yards, to an accuracy standard of five shot groups under four inches at 25 yards with the factory barrel? If so, can you post photos of your groups with the various loads?
can we see all 10 of your m & p9s with their corresponding targets as well as the same setup with your different guns (glocks and hks) for comparison? I'll post mine next time I get out to the range
I think posting with another gun acts as a control, showing you're even capable of shooting such tight groups
Hogsgunwild
05-29-12, 16:22
I have previously managed several 4" @ 25 yard groups using more than five rounds each time, supported. That would be with my M&P 9MM COMPACT. My fullsize cannot even do that with better ammo and after S&W replaced the barrel. :mad:
I do not mean to be rude but what does the picture really help?
One could B.S. or exaggerate just as easily with or without pictures.
You know, shoot the target closer in and say it was 25 yards.
That is what I like about this site. I can trust a lot of the people here after having heard of their experiences, backgrounds, intentions, etc.
There are plenty of people here that are secure enough with themselves that they do not need to B.S. on the internet. The ones that do B.S. weed themselves out or can sometimes be ignored.
I documented my results in multiple posts in the M&P 9 accuracy thread, as they happened. In each instance of group testing, I shot reference groups with a Glock or P30. I had no interest in having so many accuracy problems, and I didn't end up with over 10 9's because I wanted them to fail.
Certainly a photograph can be BS'd. My real point is just that folks actually go out and shoot their M&P pistols, and post their results whether they be written or in pictures, as opposed to just announcing their M&P shoots based on gut or some single group they shot some time in the past.
It would be encouraging if even a single person has a M&P 9 that they have shot at 25 yards, that can meet that accuracy standard, and have the point of impact between various loads be close enough that it works without a sight adjustment. I have yet to see such an M&P, but I am open to being educated.
YES! No 7 or 10 yard one hole groups! ;)
I documented my results in multiple posts in the M&P 9 accuracy thread, as they happened. In each instance of group testing, I shot reference groups with a Glock or P30. I had no interest in having so many accuracy problems, and I didn't end up with over 10 9's because I wanted them to fail.
Certainly a photograph can be BS'd. My real point is just that folks actually go out and shoot their M&P pistols, and post their results whether they be written or in pictures, as opposed to just announcing their M&P shoots based on gut or some single group they shot some time in the past.
It would be encouraging if even a single person has a M&P 9 that they have shot at 25 yards, that can meet that accuracy standard, and have the point of impact between various loads be close enough that it works without a sight adjustment. I have yet to see such an M&P, but I am open to being educated.
I think most people train at reasonable distances that are realistic in a self defense scenario. shooting 5 shots slowly at 25 yards doesn't translate very well towards real life encounters.
I'm not discounting the importance of accuracy at any distance and this is coming from someone with several brands of "accurate" guns including hks, glocks, and czs, but it seems to be causing you to overlook many of the redeeming qualities the m &p9 has.
i'd also like to know why you have 10 fs m & p9s. I would never spend ~$5,000 on one specific type of gun that I so adamantly disliked.
When I tried 4 types of cheap ammo in my M&P, only the WWB shot < 4" groups (3 x 5 shot groups averaged). However, all 4 types shot to the same approximate point of aim.
I have a 20lb recoil spring on it's way from MidwayUSA, and I'm hoping that may help, if the problem is early unlocking.
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Just to add my one unscientific data point. What was really strange to me was the variance between similar types of practice ammo of the same weight.
I shot four types of inexpensive 115 grain practice ammo offhand through my brand new M&P9 FS. Each type shot less than 2" at 15 yards. I then shot each type three times at 25 yards from the bench, wrists resting on two soft gun rugs, gun not touching anything.
UMC Yellow Box: Avg 5 1/2" (5", 6 1/2", 5")
Fed Champion: Avg 6 1/2" (8", 6 1/2", 5")
Win White Box: Avg 3" (2 1/8", 3", 3 3/4")
Fed American Eagle: Avg 5 3/4" (6", 4 3/4", 6 1/2")
As a quasi-control, I shot three 25 yard groups of the WWB with my Glock 34, with an average of 2 1/2" (2 3/4", 2", 2 3/4").
I'm sure this says more about my shooting than the guns, but I thought it was interesting. Also, it tells me that if your gun won't shoot with one type of cheap bulk ammo of the weight you like, try a few more.
On Sunday I shot several groups with my M&P 9L, stock barrel and stock sights with DCAEK, well within a 4 inch red square from 25 yards, two hand grip from a sandbag rest. The experience left me satisfied that my particular M&P shoots to my satisfaction. The gun is about 1.5 years old and has about 3000 rounds through it.
Only used one ammo...115 grain PMC Bronze.
brickboy240
05-29-12, 17:31
Did he really buy 10 of these things?
Ten?
I think after the first one or two....I would be looking for something else, if accuracy is a main concern.
I only needed ONE Ford pickup to know that I needed to not buy another! LOL
- brickboy240
Did he really buy 10 of these things?
Ten?
I think after the first one or two....I would be looking for something else, if accuracy is a main concern.
I only needed ONE Ford pickup to know that I needed to not buy another! LOL
- brickboy240
Yep, pretty much all at once to find an ellusive ideal specimen. Pretty neat eh? :D
Did he really buy 10 of these things?
Ten?
I think after the first one or two....I would be looking for something else, if accuracy is a main concern.
I only needed ONE Ford pickup to know that I needed to not buy another! LOL
- brickboy240
I bought three. Once you're invested in a platform, it's hard to switch, particulary when it's one with potential.
The M&P, for a left handed person, which I am, is almost a perfect pistol (aside from the accuracy issue). I can play on an equal footing with right handed shooters, and speed reloads are quicker for me than with any other pistol I own. Also, I was always .5 or so slower with other pistols in doing slide lock reloads using my trigger finger or reaching under with my support hand, then having to re-establish my grip.
It is also well supported with accessories, has spare parts available and is very reliable.
That being said, I moved on to 9mm Glocks. I still mourn for what my 9mm M&Ps could be if S&W cared. I started off with M&Ps in .40 S&W, and my two .40's do not have accuracy issues, I just moved away from that caliber. None of my three 9mms would shoot <7" 10-round groups at 25 yards, to the same POI load to load. I gave up trying to find the magical load that would.
When I tried 4 types of cheap ammo in my M&P, only the WWB shot < 4" groups (3 x 5 shot groups averaged). However, all 4 types shot to the same approximate point of aim.
I have a 20lb recoil spring on it's way from MidwayUSA, and I'm hoping that may help, if the problem is early unlocking.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to add my one unscientific data point. What was really strange to me was the variance between similar types of practice ammo of the same weight.
I shot four types of inexpensive 115 grain practice ammo offhand through my brand new M&P9 FS. Each type shot less than 2" at 15 yards. I then shot each type three times at 25 yards from the bench, wrists resting on two soft gun rugs, gun not touching anything.
UMC Yellow Box: Avg 5 1/2" (5", 6 1/2", 5")
Fed Champion: Avg 6 1/2" (8", 6 1/2", 5")
Win White Box: Avg 3" (2 1/8", 3", 3 3/4")
Fed American Eagle: Avg 5 3/4" (6", 4 3/4", 6 1/2")
As a quasi-control, I shot three 25 yard groups of the WWB with my Glock 34, with an average of 2 1/2" (2 3/4", 2", 2 3/4").
I'm sure this says more about my shooting than the guns, but I thought it was interesting. Also, it tells me that if your gun won't shoot with one type of cheap bulk ammo of the weight you like, try a few more.
This was more or less my experience. I could get every pistol to shoot at least one load well, but each gun was its own story. I ended up with tape on each slide, listing the loads that shot in a particular pistol.
Trying to have two course guns and a carry gun for me, and the same for my wife drove me bonkers, between the variety of ammo required. For example, my RMR FS shot Aguila 124 ball into two inches, but wouldn't shoot most of the TMJ I needed for going to the Rogers School. My back-up FS with RMR hated Aguila, but shot 147 Blazer TMJ acceptably, but needed a sight adjustment for the one carry load it shot well. Each iron sighted Pro I had also had a different preference.
Going off to a course with ammo for each pistol, and carry ammo, required a bigger selection than Ammoman probably stocks. To simplify things, my wife and I started bringing a G19 as a carry gun, because it shot everything we had to the same point of impact. Then, we said this is dumb -- and decided to make a Glock 17 work for courses as well.
Ten plus may sound like a lot, until you end up with a wife that shoots as much as you, you want duplicates, and experiment with optics. Not being the sharpest knife in the drawer, and being optimistic, it took me a while to reason that we din't have just a bad M&P, but that MOST M&P's are inaccurate at 25 yards and further.
If I had a few M&P pistols that shot multiple loads to the same point of impact decently, I would still be shooting that platform. But I don't. I really would love to hear about a M&P that shoots multiple 9mm loads -- not just one load, accurately and to the same point of impact.
I installed a 20lb recoil spring, which seemed to improve accuracy, but it still is not great.
I shot three types of ammo, five x five shot groups at 25yards.
Fed Champion: Avg 4.7" (4.25", 5.25", 3.5", 2.0", 8.5")
Win White Box: Avg 5.9" (5.25, 2.0", 8.5", 10.25", 3.5")
Fiocchi 147gr: Avg 4.5" (6.5", 2.75, 3.25", 6.35", 3.5")
For a control, I shot the same ammo through my Glock:
Fed Champion: Avg 2.85" (1.5", 3.5", 2.25', 4.5", 2.5")
Win White Box: Avg 4.15" (3.5", 3.75", 5.0", 5.0", 3.5")
Fiocchi 147gr: Avg 3.95" (4.75", 4.5", 3.75", 3.25", 3.5")
Fed and Fiocchi shot high, WWB shot POA. The Fiocchi seemed to string vertically (horizontally the groups were about 2")
So, I didn't shoot as well as last time, but I think there was a noticeable improvement in accuracy. But I'm still not really happy with the accuracy. Also, the gun has been having light strikes with WWB. I installed an extra power striker spring from SSS, but it still has light strikes with WWB and the Fiocchi. I think I'm going to see what S&W CS can do. Still, until the gunsmith barrels are available, and for < $10, I think the heavier recoil spring is an improvement.
When I tried 4 types of cheap ammo in my M&P, only the WWB shot < 4" groups (3 x 5 shot groups averaged). However, all 4 types shot to the same approximate point of aim.
I have a 20lb recoil spring on it's way from MidwayUSA, and I'm hoping that may help, if the problem is early unlocking.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to add my one unscientific data point. What was really strange to me was the variance between similar types of practice ammo of the same weight.
I shot four types of inexpensive 115 grain practice ammo offhand through my brand new M&P9 FS. Each type shot less than 2" at 15 yards. I then shot each type three times at 25 yards from the bench, wrists resting on two soft gun rugs, gun not touching anything.
UMC Yellow Box: Avg 5 1/2" (5", 6 1/2", 5")
Fed Champion: Avg 6 1/2" (8", 6 1/2", 5")
Win White Box: Avg 3" (2 1/8", 3", 3 3/4")
Fed American Eagle: Avg 5 3/4" (6", 4 3/4", 6 1/2")
As a quasi-control, I shot three 25 yard groups of the WWB with my Glock 34, with an average of 2 1/2" (2 3/4", 2", 2 3/4").
I'm sure this says more about my shooting than the guns, but I thought it was interesting. Also, it tells me that if your gun won't shoot with one type of cheap bulk ammo of the weight you like, try a few more.
And the Sig P226 wins again!
I documented my results in multiple posts in the M&P 9 accuracy thread, as they happened. In each instance of group testing, I shot reference groups with a Glock or P30. I had no interest in having so many accuracy problems, and I didn't end up with over 10 9's because I wanted them to fail.
Certainly a photograph can be BS'd. My real point is just that folks actually go out and shoot their M&P pistols, and post their results whether they be written or in pictures, as opposed to just announcing their M&P shoots based on gut or some single group they shot some time in the past.
It would be encouraging if even a single person has a M&P 9 that they have shot at 25 yards, that can meet that accuracy standard, and have the point of impact between various loads be close enough that it works without a sight adjustment. I have yet to see such an M&P, but I am open to being educated.
Out of curiosity, to what end? I've followed your posts here and on pistol training. You have ten M&P 9 pistols that are inconsistent. Is it that except for this one issue, you like the gun and prefer it over everything else? If so, why not just wait until Grant finishes testing the Storm Lake fitted barrels and order some from him or wait for the Apex/bar-sto barrel if you prefer that? Someone else having a consistently accurate gun with different ammo doesn't help you at all. I said, and still maintain, that if I had guns that shot like yours do, they would long be sold and replaced with something else. At this point though, the match grade barrels are so close to being ready, if you like the gun that much, just replace the barrels and you'll have what you want.
IMHO, the only pistol worth worrying about or posting about this much is a really nice 1911. Most service pistols are just that, service pistols. I personally find that Glock, HK, Sig and M&P work fine depending on caliber. HK is IMO the one that works the best across the calibers, but then you have to think about parts cost and availability. My point is if the M&P 9 isn't working for you, which apparently it is not, why not just change guns or change calibers?
IMHO, the only pistol worth worrying about or posting about this much is a really nice 1911.
Seriously? An extreme minority opinion there. As vast miles of bandwidth can attest.
Seriously? An extreme minority opinion there. As vast miles of bandwidth can attest.
Yes, well, understand that I'm not saying this is opinion applies to all or anyone other than me. As I said before, service pistols all pretty work to me, depending on caliber, so I wouldn't be trying to make a gun work for me that doesn't; and that's not a criticism. Quite honestly, the OP's patience level is much higher than mine. If I had the problems that he has had with the M&P 9, I would have just sold all of them and switched to a different gun (read Glock, Sig, HK, Walther etc here) or different caliber. Actually, I wouldn't have bought ten of them. I would have bought one, maybe two and stopped if they didn't work for me. So my entire point is that, IMHO, the M&P 9 isn't that special of a gun. Now GJM might disagree with me. He might think that, except for the accuracy issue, it's the best pistol out there. If so, cool. Maybe he really wants this pistol to work for him. That's a personal decision. I just don't think the pistol is worth this much frustration.
Seriously? An extreme minority opinion there. As vast miles of bandwidth can attest.
I actually agree with him. It's not a $3000 Wilson combat match grade pistol that is guaranteed to shoot 1moa. It's a service pistol like he said, and for most distances that defensive handgun encounters occur, it is more than adequate.
I also agree that if you've spent $5000+ on 10 m&p9s and you refuse to sell them, buy the storm lake barrel and you'll have the best of both worlds.
A fix for the accuracy problems of the M&P 9 has been a "month or two" away for the last 18 months. In March, I decided to put them all aside, until Grant/Randy/S&W have solved the problem, and that solution has proven to work for pistols with thousands of rounds.
As far as selling the ones I have, selling known inaccurate pistols is not something I am keen on. Here is the description -- awesome M&P pistols with Apex triggers, Warren sights, that shoot like crap at 25 yards, but will be just fine at "gunfight distances."
My priority now is not chasing hardware solutions, like a still in the works barrel solution for the M&P, but continuing to improve my shooting ability. For that, a Pre 2010 Gen 3 Glock 17, runs reliably and places the bullets where I aim. I am confident that when I align the sights and pull the trigger, if the bullet doesn't go where I want, it is my fault and not that of the pistol. A least through year end, I have committed to shooting a Glock, at which time I will revisit whether the M&P 9 issues have been sorted out.
This is a reminder for me to hit the bench at 25 on Thursday to see what I can manage.
Does anyone own a M&P 9 that shoots multiple loads, to the same point of impact at 25 yards, to an accuracy standard of five shot groups under four inches at 25 yards with the factory barrel? If so, can you post photos of your groups with the various loads?
Mine does! :D
C4
Mine does! :D
C4
Show off! :)
Show off! :)
Right now, I have 500rds through my M&P. Am going to run it dirty for some time in an effort to see if any tolerances are too tight to allow for dirt. If I can get 1k throught it without issue, then I think we are good.
C4
Does anyone own a M&P 9 that shoots multiple loads, to the same point of impact at 25 yards, to an accuracy standard of five shot groups under four inches at 25 yards with the factory barrel? If so, can you post photos of your groups with the various loads?
I think you're looking for something that is a physical impossibility. Different loads will shoot to different POI it's the nature of physics. A 115gr bullet going at X velocity will have a different trajectory than a 147gr bullet going at a slower velocity. The POI shift at 25 yds isn't going to be as dramatic as say switching loads in a rifle shooting to Ft. Dix, but it's still going to be there.
Shooting 4" groups at 25 with different loads should be possible, but your POI will shift. Hell I'll bet they will shift some within lots of the same load.
Usable POI, not some minor shift.
I am confused between the various threads, but I have said a POI that is usable without adjusting the sights. My HK and Glock pistols certainly have some change in POI, but not enough to make the pistol unable to make a headshot at 25 yards. With the M&P, the POI shift between different loads is dramatic on my pistols.
Grant gets this, and that is what is so exciting about what he is seeing with the new barrels.
Grant gets this, and that is what is so exciting about what he is seeing with the new barrels.
It makes sense to me. What I don't understand... and I believe is what is being said here... is this.
Take three pistols. All the same. Serial numbers 1 2 and 3.
Take ammo brand X 115g. adjust sights until all three hit at pretty much the same place inside a 4" circle. Let's say we adjust until they are roughly centered in the circle.
Now run ammo z through them.
Pistol 1 shifts 2" up to right.
Pistol 2 shifts 2" down to left
Pistol 3 shifts 1" due north.
That is what makes no sense to me. I would expect them all to shift to reasonably the same direction and the group sizes to be reasonably similar. Like they all go to right a bit and group gets a little bigger. Or all down and group gets a little smaller.
Why all over the map with something machined to such similar tolerances and dimensions?
Is that simply the nature of handguns? Should that be expected from any basic factory handgun? Tolerances and dimensions, even though very similar are typically sufficiently large that these changes are normal and unavoidable at that tolerance level?
IOW, getting a matched set of factory handguns is near impossible. By matched I mean they will react to changes in a near identical fashion.
Usable POI, not some minor shift.
I am confused between the various threads, but I have said a POI that is usable without adjusting the sights. My HK and Glock pistols certainly have some change in POI, but not enough to make the pistol unable to make a headshot at 25 yards. With the M&P, the POI shift between different loads is dramatic on my pistols.
Grant gets this, and that is what is so exciting about what he is seeing with the new barrels.
I was talking to an engineer at a firearms manufacturer and they said something to me that was interesting. This guy felt that the twist rate used in the M&P 9mm barrel WOULD cause some instability in the bullet (depending on weight).
This (of course) adds some to the "randomness" of the M&P's accuracy issues (from bullet weight to bullet weight) and why you can get large shifts.
By fitting a barrel, I have slowed down the un-locking speed which in turn help accuracy. This coupled with a better twist rate (1/16) adds for a more consistent/stable bullet (in flight).
I have shot 124gr + P to 147gr subsonic and had little to NO (identifiable) POI shift in my fitted M&P barrel. There is also less felt recoil (to me).
The above is my just opinion and is worth what you paid for it.
C4
sniperfrog
06-04-12, 12:31
I watched a show with Julie Goloski shooting an M&P40. They showed her shooting in super slo-mo. I was amazed at how much the frame flexed when firing. That has to have some kind of effect.
I'm sure all polymer guns do it but I'd like to see how bad a Glock or HK looks.
I have shot 124gr + P to 147gr subsonic and had little to NO (identifiable) POI shift in my fitted M&P barrel. There is also less felt recoil (to me).
The above is my just opinion and is worth what you paid for it.
C4
This is an enormous breakthrough. When I switch from 300 grain to 420 grain to 500 plus grain in a 45-70, I expect to see a big change in point of impact in elevation. When I go from a light .44 special to a heavy magnum load in a .44, I expect a change in POI.
When I shoot various quality 9 mm loads out of an HK or Glock, the shifts in POI are almost not identifiable unless I am having a very good day at 25 yards. When I shoot Aguila 124 ball, HST 124+P and Ranger 124+P in a M&P 9, and the five shoot groups range from sub two inches to eight inches at 25 yards, and the POI varies as much as 6 or 8 inches in windage and elevation, with no predictability as to what load will shoot to what accuracy and what POI, in otherwise identical (sights, trigger, backstrap) M&P pistols, I realize that S&W has no clue, or is unwilling to implement manufacturing changes if they do have a clue.
Thank goodness Grant has stepped up to the plate on this issue.
Yes, well, understand that I'm not saying this is opinion applies to all or anyone other than me. As I said before, service pistols all pretty work to me, depending on caliber, so I wouldn't be trying to make a gun work for me that doesn't; and that's not a criticism. Quite honestly, the OP's patience level is much higher than mine. If I had the problems that he has had with the M&P 9, I would have just sold all of them and switched to a different gun (read Glock, Sig, HK, Walther etc here) or different caliber. Actually, I wouldn't have bought ten of them. I would have bought one, maybe two and stopped if they didn't work for me. So my entire point is that, IMHO, the M&P 9 isn't that special of a gun. Now GJM might disagree with me. He might think that, except for the accuracy issue, it's the best pistol out there. If so, cool. Maybe he really wants this pistol to work for him. That's a personal decision. I just don't think the pistol is worth this much frustration.
I have a bunch of Glocks that accuracy wise shot circles around the Pro9 I had for a pretty good test run. I didn't have the patience to screw with it either and dumped it. But with the M&P being one of the top polymer pistols today I think it's great some folks are chasing it this hard. Many of them (like GJM and Grant for that matter) seem to be chasing what the M&P could be. And that's a good thing.
Also, I have some inside track (from another forum) on the history of GJM's quantified performance comparisons of several major gun platforms across some very demanding tests and he zeroed in on the M&P as possessing one of the very best combinations of features to make it the ultimate shooting machine.
I shoot my 9c more accurately then my fs9 M&P. As a lefty, I tried to like the g19, just wasn't my gig. Whatever works for u I guess.
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