View Full Version : Mounting the Thorntail to use with "thumb over" grip?
I'm looking into picking up an IWC/Haley Thorntail light mount. It will be used on my duty rifle which has the FSB (carbine length) and a short railed forearm. I have long arms, so I'm trying to get the light as far out as possible.
What I'm wondering is how well the Thorntail works on the opposite side of my support hand. I'll be using a regular push button tailcap on the light, but I'm curious to see if anyone has had success using the same setup? I'm looking to use my left thumb across the top of the handguard to activate the light. My desire is to mount the Thorntail on the top of the handguard.
Thanks!
If I understand correctly, holding the rifle with your left hand on the rail, thumb over top, mounting the light on your right side of the rail at the 1 oclock? If this is what you are asking, I tried this out with my SBR for the same reason you are doing this, and I found it worked a LOT better on the 11 oclock side. With the 1 oclock, I had to really reach over and a part of my hand blocked my t-1 and my grip strength was reduced.
One solution I found was the AFG mounted with the 1 oclock, but even then, 11 worked best for me. This is if you don't plan on using a switch however.
Just my two cents.
jasonhgross
05-31-12, 13:01
This is why I went with Midwest Industries MCTAR mount. I am stealing Rob_S's ideas here, but I took the MCTAR, mounted it to my A frame sight, and put a Vltor Scout mount on it with a spare Surefire G2 I had laying around. The sloppyness in the G2 switch actually makes it easier to actuate the light. I still use thumb-over while using the light, but break the thumb and use the flashlight to pull down with the thumb. Works great, very minimalistic, and with the light on the MCTAR it frees up the maximum amount of real-estate on the short Carbine length handguards (6920 in my case).
jonconsiglio
05-31-12, 14:21
El Cid, are you a member on Lightfighter? I know I've seen you somewhere before.
Anyway, if you are, search about using your thumb over the rail to activate the light. I had one rifle set up that way for a while and it's not the best set up, even if you are currently comfortable with it like I was. When I moved it back to the left side, even using my thumb over the top rail, it was easier, more convenient and comfortable and there was less chance of any issues.
I know that might seem odd, but just do a search and you'll see a few guys talking about experiences in classes and shoot houses with that set up and how it wasn't as good as a left side offset (for right handed shooters) or a pressure switch.
As for the setup itself, it'll work well. The mount is long enough that I think you could actually put it to far forward on the right side that it would be hard to reach with your left hand around the front sight block, so it'll give you what you're looking for.
The Thorntail is designed to be used on either side.
I personally switched mine over to the right side when I first got mine, but then switched it back to the left side. Too awkward for me on the right side as someone already mentioned.
It's one of those things you'll just have to try yourself to see what works best.
Overall, the Thorntail is an excellent mounting option and is easy to configure on either side.
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If I understand correctly, holding the rifle with your left hand on the rail, thumb over top, mounting the light on your right side of the rail at the 1 oclock? If this is what you are asking, I tried this out with my SBR for the same reason you are doing this, and I found it worked a LOT better on the 11 oclock side. With the 1 oclock, I had to really reach over and a part of my hand blocked my t-1 and my grip strength was reduced.
One solution I found was the AFG mounted with the 1 oclock, but even then, 11 worked best for me. This is if you don't plan on using a switch however.
Just my two cents.
Yessir! That's what I'm considering. I'm trying to simplify and avoid having to move my hand in order to activate the light. Obviously some movement is necessary to avoid bumping the light button, but I want to minimize it.
I was hoping the Thorntail would put it close enough that my support grip isn't compromised. It's just very tough to tell sometimes when looking at pics. None of my local shooters that I know of are using this mount or any like it.
The 11 o'clock may end up being the way I go - I'm just trying to see what others have experienced before I actually spend any money. :)
This is why I went with Midwest Industries MCTAR mount. I am stealing Rob_S's ideas here, but I took the MCTAR, mounted it to my A frame sight, and put a Vltor Scout mount on it with a spare Surefire G2 I had laying around. The sloppyness in the G2 switch actually makes it easier to actuate the light. I still use thumb-over while using the light, but break the thumb and use the flashlight to pull down with the thumb. Works great, very minimalistic, and with the light on the MCTAR it frees up the maximum amount of real-estate on the short Carbine length handguards (6920 in my case).
Thanks! I've got a coworker running a TLR1 on that mount. It's good, but still feels a bit cramped for my long arms. I currently am running a Mossie Tactics mount with an X-300 out front. It's a bit of a reach, but useable. I need the X-300 for another pistol though, so I'm looking to mount a barrel light as far out as possible - while still being able to reach it.
El Cid, are you a member on Lightfighter? I know I've seen you somewhere before.
Anyway, if you are, search about using your thumb over the rail to activate the light. I had one rifle set up that way for a while and it's not the best set up, even if you are currently comfortable with it like I was. When I moved it back to the left side, even using my thumb over the top rail, it was easier, more convenient and comfortable and there was less chance of any issues.
I know that might seem odd, but just do a search and you'll see a few guys talking about experiences in classes and shoot houses with that set up and how it wasn't as good as a left side offset (for right handed shooters) or a pressure switch.
As for the setup itself, it'll work well. The mount is long enough that I think you could actually put it to far forward on the right side that it would be hard to reach with your left hand around the front sight block, so it'll give you what you're looking for.
I am. Searching now - thanks! I am trying to avoid using cords as they seem to invite trouble. I really prefer the 12 o'clock, but am a righty, so if I leave high-center, I would think 1 o'clock or so would be best as I'm most likely going to use the right side of a barricade/cover.
Thanks gents! All input is apprecaited.
Failure2Stop
05-31-12, 17:18
Haven't used the thorntail, but in a Danger Close mount my M600 is perfect at 1:00 for me for bilateral employment without a 12:00 PEQ. It has been extensively used in all sorts of environments and conditions and it works just fine.
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I have a Thorntail/M600 mounted on the 9 o'clock rail of my Noveske-uppered gun; light's about 10:30. (It was that, or spend the coin to swap out the SWS rail and it's barrel nut for something else, and I didn't feel like spending THAT kind of coin just to mount a light. Just couldn't do it.)
Anyhow, the thing's now ideally placed for support-hand activation. I can JUST get to the thing correctly with my strong hand thumb going over the rail in those instances I switch shoulders.
My hands are on the small side of average, and I tend to keep my thumb in-line with the bore on full-railed forearms, so factor in that I'm talking about a different grip as a baseline, but one that includes thumb-over for offhand. It's NOT my go-to.
I've never seen what it'd be like of the Thorntail was mounted to the 12 o'clock rail. It might have tucked the light in closer to the 12 o'clock rail and bring it in a more ideal position for thumb-over activation. But, would have interfered with the mounting of my BUIS, so I didn't even seriously consider it, much less try it.
EDIT: AHA! Shown top-mounted, which appears to tuck it laterally inward more than mounted to a side rail. Should be able to go opposite side, if desired; that thing's omni-sexual, and swings whatever way you want it to: http://www.haleystrategic.com/images/mounts/thorntail/01.jpg
Thanks gents! I'll give it a try. I'll start with a top rail mount and see how that works out.
jonconsiglio
06-01-12, 19:26
Haven't used the thorntail, but in a Danger Close mount my M600 is perfect at 1:00 for me for bilateral employment without a 12:00 PEQ. It has been extensively used in all sorts of environments and conditions and it works just fine.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
So, as a right handed shooter, you're running your Scout in a right side offset mount, putting it at 1:00, right? With your left hand, you use your thumb over the top rail to activate the light,I'm assuming...
Good to hear its working for you. I had mixed results on mine, which I ran for about 6 months, but it wasn't one of my primary rifles. I've seen a few guys like Pat Rogers talk about negative experiences with this set up.
Thanks.
The Gear Sector brings it in pretty tight.
http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee343/jonconsiglio/Forums/SR15s_01.jpg
Failure2Stop
06-01-12, 20:39
So, as a right handed shooter, you're running your Scout in a right side offset mount, putting it at 1:00, right? With your left hand, you use your thumb over the top rail to activate the light,I'm assuming...
That is correct.
I posted a while ago about where I have my light and why, I'll see if I can dig it up.
I am not saying that it is the best for everyone, simply that it works well for me for my application. I try to avoid tape switches as much as possible, which drives my decisions quite a bit.
For use from both shoulders with either hand operating the light I use, there isn't a better solution for me. My right handed HG grip is a little different than my left handed HG grip, and it does not like to reach over the top rail to hit the switch as much as my left hand does without affecting performance.
Failure2Stop
06-01-12, 20:51
Found it:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1285193&postcount=51
Placement of lights is a fine balance of factors.
Sling placement, IR lasers, grip type, barricade use, offset sights, support side use, and activation methods all must be considered and negative interface must be reduced.
With an optimally setup carbine I prefer to have a sling at the muzzle end of the handguard, which makes placement of a light at 9:00 or 10:30 problematic. IR lasers at 12:00 will interfere with 10:30 or 1:30 light placement. 6:00 placement of lights will make over barricade use problematic and compromises grip. 3:00 and 9:00 positions are difficult to use when firing from the support side unless you use a tape switch. Tape switches induce a host of issues, especially if you are using two devices on tape switches; they are also more prone to inadvertant activation and the lines can easily get pulled or broken unless you are very carful and conduct frequent checks of securement. 3:00 and 9:00 also force the shooter to expose more of the gun/body from vertical cover to avoid back-splash. 10:30 and 1:30 lights can interfere with offset aiming devices. 12:00 is a great light position, but it reduces iron sight radius (which isn't really a huge deal), doesn't work well with 12:00 mounted IR laser, and many are prone to accidental activation due to switchlogy. 4:30 and 7:30 mounting forces the shooter to use a chicken-choker grip on the VFG or try to activate with a knuckle, which is also sub-optimal.
So... I put a SF M600 at 1:30 (in a Danger Close mount). I can reach across the top rail to activate with the left hand or just slide slightly back with the right. It provides enough open rail for use from supported poistions and I only have to expose a little more of the gun from cover than with a 12:00 mount. It lets me use a fixed FSB and doesn't interfere with my forward mounted sling. I don't have an IR laser or offset aiming devices on most of my carbines, so there is no interference issue.
For those that do have 12:00 IR lasers I either run 2 tape switches and put the light at 3:00 (tape switches at 10:30 [laser] and 1:30 [white light], between the rails), or I move my sling mount back, close to the receiver, and put the light at 9:00 with tailcap activation. This is pretty much the only time that I willingly use tape-switches as they afford ambidexterous use. I zip-tie and tape the lines to prevent snagging and damage.
davidjinks
06-04-12, 19:20
I went with the SBR Thorntail for my M600 mount. Originally I had the Scout on the strong side with the standard SF mount. That particular setup interfered with my grip style.
Shameless plug to F2S for the ideas!
Anyway, Thorntail SBR mount...I tried it support side, top side and strong side. With my grip style it was more effective to run the mount on my support side. I am able to engage the clicky tail cap with my support hand thumb as well as my thumb from my strong side while doing a transition. When performing my transition I get a grip more over the top of the rifle.
Running the light mount on the top side made it a bit difficult for me to get a good grasp on my rifle.
I'm looking into picking up an IWC/Haley Thorntail light mount. It will be used on my duty rifle which has the FSB (carbine length) and a short railed forearm. I have long arms, so I'm trying to get the light as far out as possible.
What I'm wondering is how well the Thorntail works on the opposite side of my support hand. I'll be using a regular push button tailcap on the light, but I'm curious to see if anyone has had success using the same setup? I'm looking to use my left thumb across the top of the handguard to activate the light. My desire is to mount the Thorntail on the top of the handguard.
Thanks!
I've never seen what it'd be like of the Thorntail was mounted to the 12 o'clock rail. It might have tucked the light in closer to the 12 o'clock rail and bring it in a more ideal position for thumb-over activation. But, would have interfered with the mounting of my BUIS, so I didn't even seriously consider it, much less try it.
EDIT: AHA! Shown top-mounted, which appears to tuck it laterally inward more than mounted to a side rail. Should be able to go opposite side, if desired; that thing's omni-sexual, and swings whatever way you want it to: http://www.haleystrategic.com/images/mounts/thorntail/01.jpg
I wonder if the mount itself would interfere with the thumb over when mounted on the 12:00 rail.
If you are using a Troy front flip up buis I would be interested to know if this mount interferes with the detent button. Every other mount I've tried pushes the light against the detent button.
So, as a right handed shooter, you're running your Scout in a right side offset mount, putting it at 1:00, right? With your left hand, you use your thumb over the top rail to activate the light,I'm assuming...
Good to hear its working for you. I had mixed results on mine, which I ran for about 6 months, but it wasn't one of my primary rifles. I've seen a few guys like Pat Rogers talk about negative experiences with this set up.
Thanks.
The Gear Sector brings it in pretty tight.
http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee343/jonconsiglio/Forums/SR15s_01.jpg
That's how my SR-15's are set up as well, it works pretty well when it's easy to fully extend the support arm, but gets tricky when you can't.
I actually have started going back to mounting all lights at 12:00, not just with X300's. The SR-15's and my FSB mounted lights still aren't because there's a front sight in the way.
http://i.imgur.com/vzC9I.jpg
Well I picked up a Thorntail mount and found out a few things. With a carbine FSB and Surefire handguard you cannot mount the light on top where I was hoping to place it. Even if I moved it back one space, the mount still pushes against the FSB and the light isn't lined up.
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/photo-22.jpg
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/photo-23.jpg
As you can see it works fine on the side. Even though this is a smudge further away, I can still activate the light. Should work for now.
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/photo-24.jpg
I ran into a similar issue with my Thorntail + M600. Nowhere near as bad as what you posted as the DD Omegas that the Thorntail was mounted on have the 12 o'clock rail at the same height as the flattop, unlike the Surefire. I relieved the areas where the mount touched the FSB with a Dremel and am very happy with the results.
I ran into a similar issue with my Thorntail + M600. Nowhere near as bad as what you posted as the DD Omegas that the Thorntail was mounted on have the 12 o'clock rail at the same height as the flattop, unlike the Surefire. I relieved the areas where the mount touched the FSB with a Dremel and am very happy with the results.
I figured the SF piece was part of the culprit. Unfortunately, this is a duty rifle (agency owned) so that isn't an option. Can't even change out the handguards...
Robb Jensen
06-20-12, 05:50
I figured the SF piece was part of the culprit. Unfortunately, this is a duty rifle (agency owned) so that isn't an option. Can't even change out the handguards...
Have you considered the Mossie Tactics/Battlecomp FSB mount? Then you could mount a TLR-1 or X300 in front of the FSB.
Have you considered the Mossie Tactics/Battlecomp FSB mount? Then you could mount a TLR-1 or X300 in front of the FSB.
That's actually what I had on there before this. I wanted the x300 for something else.
Snake101st
06-28-12, 22:09
I have a question, would the thorntail block the button to flip up my PRI flip up gas block/front sight? I was hoping to mount the thorntail on either the top or left rail, giving me a 10-11 o'clock position and using a thumb over grip on my carbine (I have a KAC VFG that I use similar to a handstop).
http://www.mwgco.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/PRI-FUP-001.gif
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