View Full Version : Latest interaction with LEO
I'll preface this by saying I do not hate LEOs. I don't like them being referred to in a derogatory or stereotypical manner because I know they have (mostly) good people and some pricks among them like any other profession. I do not want to start a flame war but just have a conversation about my latest interaction with a local county and state officer. Most of the interactions I've had with LEOs have not been this difficult.
So I'm driving home on a fairly rural road around 9:00 or 10:00 pm one Saturday night and up ahead I see blue lights from several cars and orange cones as well as civilians' cars on the side of the road. This was surrounding a Y in the road where I was to turn left and it appeared to me at first to be an accident scene. They're quite common due to this winding road. The car about 50-75 yards in front of me appeared to have been speaking with the officers, started moving, and made the left where I planned to turn.
There was a line of cones in the center of the road in front of the left of the Y I planned to turn on, a line of cones past the Y, room to turn between the cones, and more cruisers and officers past that to stop people going straight. I slowly proceeded to pull to the location in the road where the last car had left which was past the first set of cones and just at the Y to the left. All of a sudden the state trooper that was standing near the first set of cones and a county officer ran from the other side of the street and started shouting "STOP! STOP! WHY DIDN'T YOU STOP BEFORE THE CONES?!?" I was caught a little off guard first because I had just seen the car leave from where I was now and I've always slowly pulled next to an officer standing in the road to ask what I need to do or how to proceed. None of them have EVER had a problem with that and have always been polite. These officers were livid with me.
The state trooper then stated that it was a road block for a license and insurance check. Who puts a road block in the middle of a Y/intersection anyway? That was a first for me. I stated that I didn't know that they wanted me to stop before the cones so before I had time to explain that I saw the car in front of me leaving from the same spot, he cut me off and demanded to know where I was going. I stated that I was only going home for the night. He snapped back, "Where is home?" I gave him the name of my subdivision about two miles down the road. He launched into a tirade that my address on my license was incorrect and he could give me a ticket on the spot!! I kind of chuckled to myself, smiled, and told him to do whatever he had to do. I didn't even point out to him that I have thirty days to change my address. He didn't bother to ask and just assumed.
Since when did the address you have on your driver's license become such a hot button issue or has it? Could it be just a local thing or him personally? He repeated the same petty threat so I'd had enough B.S. By this time my wife was upset and her little cousin in the back was crying afraid I was going to jail. I asked to speak to his supervisor who happened to be there also. Surprisingly that did no good even when I explained the situation further. I asked him to mail me a complaint form which I've had sitting here for a few days contemplating filling it out and filing it.
You may see this as a non-issue that would be better left alone and sometimes I feel that way. Then again sometimes I wonder if this isn't the first time this jerk has flown off the handle. What if one day he goes rogue and someone dies or bad things happen? Would you want that on your conscience or would you want to know that you at least did something that could've prevented that from happening?
Army Chief
05-31-12, 18:24
Tread carefully.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=69588
AC
So you had a bad experience with ONE LEO. It happens, it takes all kind of people for the world to go 'round.
Who knows, the individual you spoke with might have been having a shitty day. And while you're supposed to check your baggage at the door, nobody is perfect. Shit happens.
If he really did hurt your feelings (or you're afaird he's going to go nuts on someone), contact his Sgt. or LT and file a formal complaint.
I used to be friends with most of the cops in the town closest to us and the county cops steered clear of me because of politics. Now I'm older and don't hardly even know any of the current town police officers, and the some of the county guys and the some cops in the city 15 miles away that I know all want to come out and shoot my rifles because I have stuff they haven't seen.
I'm going to tell this story just because I think it's funny. I was sneaking out on a former wife about midnight and on my way to town I saw a guy walking down the road covered in blood. I stopped. He was hurt bad. I let him get in my car and proceeded to take him to the hospital. He was a deaf mute. Turned out I knew his sister. Anyway he wanted to go home and I was taking him to the hospital because I was afraid he'd die. We're making hand signals and writing notes.
I force him to go to the hospital. Drop him off and my Mom and Dad are there. They'd taken my younger brother to the ER because they thought he was having heart trouble, turned out to be gas. I stick around.
The hurt guy's parents show up and thank me for taking him to the hospital. My brother is ok and it's too late for my rendezvous so I head home. Take the same road. When I get to where I picked the guy up there's county and town cops everywhere and they're searching the field. The field across the road from where the guy's car is wrecked in the trees. I stop and talk to the officer.
"Move along, no gawking here"
"Look, I took the guy in the wreck to the hospital. You're looking for his car in the wrong field, it's over there in the trees, just trying to help"
" I said move along!! Am I going to have to arrest you to get you out of the way?
"OK, good luck finding the wrecked car"
Then I went on home. My Dad said when he came along an hour later later they were still out there with lights searching the wrong field. He lives down the road from me and takes the same way home from town.
Suwannee Tim
05-31-12, 19:51
Back in the good 'ole days I was jacked around by a cops a couple or three times much, much worse that this. I'm glad most cops are more professional now.
I don't think the OP is trying to open the season on LEO. I think he is looking for advice on what to do in his specific circumstance.
--
Had a crane erecting a new Science and Engineering building on the campus of a(the)major university I was attending. Best friend and I decided to climb it one night(sober). Got spotlighted around 10pm and told to come down. Slightly harassed by campus PD and town LE. Next week, same friend and I bought some beer and began walking back to his apt. One of the LE's that had chastised us was in the parking lot. Feeling brave, walked up and asked for a ride home. We got it; including the beer.
Tread carefully.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=69588
AC
Please, just shut this down. Nothing good will come of this thread.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
05-31-12, 21:18
So you didnt get treated like a 5 star hotel concierge should have treated you? Boo ****ing hoo.
I don't think the OP is trying to open the season on LEO. I think he is looking for advice on what to do in his specific circumstance.
--
+1
Other forums are bad about jumping to conclusions just from a thread title and assumptions or past experience before they even read the first post. Let's not go down that road. This isn't a bitch and cry fest. Sarcastic, trolling, and condescending remarks will be ignored. If you can't have an honest and sensible discussion on this then blame yourself, not me.
I did forget one thing. When I told the officer to do whatever he thought he needed to do he asked me "do you have an attitude problem?" Like I'm going to say "yeah I sure do, officer." I was thinking that's a little hypocritical coming from the guy going apeshit.
I just wanted to see how other people would handle a similar circumstance at a road block or stop...possibly some that have had more experience than me dealing with LEOs. Everyone knows they're human and aren't perfect. Maybe his dog died, wife left him, he hates cars like mine, etc. but as I tried to explain to his SGT that doesn't give him the right to go ballistic. I didn't have the potential to abuse my authority over him but he had that power. I asked his SGT how I should have driven or how I was supposed to know to stop at the front of the cones instead of rolling up to meet the officer. He had no answer. I think he knew it was an arbitrary expectation but he wasn't going to question the officer in my presence and probably never did afterward. If I were to act that way to any of my clients, I would lose my job.
I'm not going to debate the extraordinary circumstances LEOs go through because there would be just as many stories of that as there are people that have had bad experiences with them. Let's not go into every single bad experience we've ever had with an LEO. Most are good, some are bad. I've already established my opinion on that. However, if someone pushes my buttons for no reason regardless of who they are I will push theirs back. If there was an escaped felon on the loose driving a car like mine, I could understand a little attitude but not at a routine traffic stop.
At the time I was trying to think if there were any roadblock codes or laws I was breaking but I couldn't. At every single roadblock I've ever had to stop at, I've always pulled to where the officer was standing or at least they had enough sense to make it obvious where to stop. That's what I really wanted to know if anyone has ever been told to stop before where the officer could speak to you or got into an ambiguous situation like mine. That's what really gets under my skin...I could understand if I did something obviously stupid and he could've demonstrated to me how what I did was wrong. There are never perfect applications of the law but it's not unreasonable to expect sensible ones.
I do not condone frivolous or menial complaints however if you feel strongly enough about your situation and that indeed you were treated poorly I do suggest that you file any complaint that you feel necessary. Yes everyone has a bad day on the job even da popo but indeed we are judged at a higher expectation. Not saying we are there to kiss ass but we need to keep ourselves in check even on a bad day. My agency has cards that instruct people how to file a complaint with either IA or the Police Commission. I carry them on me and will gladly write my name and badge number on the card and either provide it upon request as we part, or I will gladly place it with your property as necessary.
GeorgiaBoy
06-01-12, 02:28
All it takes is one or two posts for a thread to start to go awry.
And, two have already been made. :rolleyes:
Honestly, if you have nothing productive to say, just stay out of the thread and quit ruining it for others.
OP, If I were you I would definitively fill out the complaint.
With such an outcry to shut this thread down, obviously I don't visit the general discussion forums much if ever. Funny how that holds true to most sites in general. Gotta love the www.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-01-12, 07:32
I've seen sobriety check points, I've heard of 'safety' checkpoints. I've never heard of papers checkpoints? Is that just an Alabama thing?
With the number of uninsured people and unlicensed people, I'm not totally against them- it's just what would you do with an illegal immigrant with out a drivers license and with out insurance? From what I saw in Ohio they get a ticket and you hope they show up for court. How effective is that?
Bolt_Overide
06-01-12, 08:35
Your explanation is fairly brief, so its hard to say if the guy was out of line or not. Most of the LEOs Ive met or known are just regular guys doing a hard job, everyone has a bad day. Personally Id give him the benefit of the doubt if you don't feel that it was intentional, or habitual.
Other than that, I gotta agree that keeping this thread open is likely to end up being a shit storm.
I do not condone frivolous or menial complaints however if you feel strongly enough about your situation and that indeed you were treated poorly I do suggest that you file any complaint that you feel necessary. Yes everyone has a bad day on the job even da popo but indeed we are judged at a higher expectation. Not saying we are there to kiss ass but we need to keep ourselves in check even on a bad day. My agency has cards that instruct people how to file a complaint with either IA or the Police Commission. I carry them on me and will gladly write my name and badge number on the card and either provide it upon request as we part, or I will gladly place it with your property as necessary.
You know it would be a frivolous issue to me if it hadn't upset my wife and her little cousin in the back wasn't crying afraid I was going to jail. It's good to know at least some of you admit you need to keep yourself in check even on bad days.
All it takes is one or two posts for a thread to start to go awry.
And, two have already been made. :rolleyes:
Honestly, if you have nothing productive to say, just stay out of the thread and quit ruining it for others.
OP, If I were you I would definitively fill out the complaint.
I've always thought of this site as a notch above the rest but there are always trolls that can't contribute an original or meaningful comment. Most of the threads I've seen on other sites have been crashed by rabid anti-LEO nuts but it seems that isn't the case. The only people I see wanting to shut this down seem to be pro LEO.
I've seen sobriety check points, I've heard of 'safety' checkpoints. I've never heard of papers checkpoints? Is that just an Alabama thing?
With the number of uninsured people and unlicensed people, I'm not totally against them- it's just what would you do with an illegal immigrant with out a drivers license and with out insurance? From what I saw in Ohio they get a ticket and you hope they show up for court. How effective is that?
Well...technically these are also sobriety checkpoints but they do the whole kit and caboodle. Tag, license, and insurance as well. I think it's a fine idea and have never had any problem with it. As to the other issue, I'm not entirely sure what would happen now that the new immigration bill will go into effect here in September I believe.
Your explanation is fairly brief, so its hard to say if the guy was out of line or not. Most of the LEOs Ive met or known are just regular guys doing a hard job, everyone has a bad day. Personally Id give him the benefit of the doubt if you don't feel that it was intentional, or habitual.
Other than that, I gotta agree that keeping this thread open is likely to end up being a shit storm.
Fairly brief? :confused: I've pretty much spelled out what happened.
The majority of LEO threads I've read, mainly on other forums, while they start out with good intentions are always crashed by people that hate LEOs or people that hate those people. Then the LEOs are forced to defend themselves which inevitably turns into a shit slinging contest. That inevitably ends in someone saying how hard and dangerous of a job they have comparatively speaking. I'm not disputing that at all and actually I have a lot of respect for those that do it well. I know I couldn't do it day-in day-out.
How could I know if one encounter with this guy was intentional or habitual? I think that was my point that it should be up to his superiors to decide because I have never met him and have no idea what his past is or future conduct will be.
As long as this is kept fairly professional what's the harm in people discussing their thoughts on this? What that says to me is you think this shouldn't be discussed and we have a bunch of children that don't know how to control their emotions. I don't think that's the case with this site. I've never understood people complaining to lock threads unless and until ignorant comments or rants start. That's what moderators are for. They don't need people complaining when nothing lock worthy has been posted. If someone doesn't like the subject matter they can quit reading it at any time.
davidjinks
06-01-12, 10:37
OP
If you feel that the officer(s) over stepped their boundaries, file the complaint. The only way deficiencies will get corrected is if they are reported.
SWATcop556
06-01-12, 10:42
I'll preface this by saying I'm LEO, therefore I may be biased. :secret:
Many years ago (about 18 years) my parents, brother and I were taking a trip and we were passing through a small rural town. My dad has always had a heavier than normal right foot and we were speeding (not sure exactly how much). Of course we rolled right passed a marked unit and were pulled over. The officer makes his ususal contact but is more curt than one would expect. My dad knew why he had been stopped but the officer never told him the specific reason. He just ID'd himself and asked for my dad's paperwork. My dad asks why the officer stopped him and that's when sugar turned to shit. The officer asks if my dad has an attitude problem to which my dad says no. Then the officer says "Is there something we need to talk about outside of the car?" My dad very politely tells him "Officer I can't think of anything we need to discuss outside of the car. Please just write the ticket so we can be on our way." After a few more gruff remarks he issued the ticket and we drove away. I never forgot the officer's name.
Fast forward to November of last year. I'm teaching a new firearms instructor course to outside agencies and who shows up? You guessed it. It was the same officer though now he was a SGT. Keep in mind that we had told this story for YEARS to family and friends. This SGT had no idea who I was or that I knew who he was.
One day at a lunch break I went up to him and asked if I could speak with him and he said sure. I told him that I needed to thank him and he asked what for. I told him that I'd had an encounter with him when I was much younger and the way he handled himself shaped how I treated people in public when I was in uniform. He had a smile on his face until I told him the story and I said "Anytime I felt myself getting pissed off when dealing with the public I would think back to how you treated my family and I would bite my tongue as I NEVER wanted someone to be telling stories about me and how much of an asshole I was for years to come." That's not how I wanted to be remembered as a LEO. I told him I didn't hold a grudge but I did want him to hear how one small traffic stop can affect someone's perception of LEO's.
Several weeks after the class I received a handwritten letter at my agency from this SGT. He asked that I deliver it to my dad. It was a lengthy apology for his actions and that he wished to speak with him over the phone. They spoke and had a good conversation but we all still think back to that day when we got stopped.
I know that's long winded but I told it for a reason. LEO's never know how they are going to affect someone's life for good or bad. We all have shitheads in our chosen professions but don't judge the many by the few. Be professional. Don't shy away from complaints. Use them to make you a better cop. If you don't then you need to find another line of work. We have a hard enough time without a small few ****ing things up for all. Your contact with someone will influence their perception of ALL LEO's. We all get bullshit complaints but I know that I've received a few that were probably warranted.
To the OP you need to handle it how you see fit. The internet will not hold a clear answer for you. If you and your family were highly offended then a complaint is probably warranted. Just be accurate in your account when you file it. I will say that getting smart with someone who obviously has a chip on their shoulder is not the best approach no matter how offensive his actions are. Take the needed steps and let it play out.
If you do make the complaint maybe try to make it less personal and more about improving the process. Just like you I have never seen a cone used as a stop sign, so I would recommend they use a portable stop sign or have an officer actually directing traffic.
SWATcop556
06-01-12, 10:53
I will also say this we are not their to treat everyone we meet with kid gloves. Roadblocks are dangerous to work due to people not paying attention, being drunk, dicking around with cell phone, etc.
You might have been the 50th person to roll through there passed the cones and he reacted poorly but at the same time try to understand that you're not the one standing outside with moving traffic. 2000 lbs bullets flying by you will make you a little quick on the temper trigger.
I don't think LEO's should have to baby everyone and hold their hand or talk softly (not talking about the OP, the general public). If you get told to do something 9 times out of 10 we have a reason for it. Put on your big boy pants and do what's needed. Life will be easier.
I always loved what my first FTO told me. "People hate Law Enforcement and don't think we serve a purpose until they need us. And when they do we can never get their fast enough."
Another good one from him was "If you hate LEO's, next time you need help don't call 911. Call a crackhead."
SWATcop556
06-01-12, 10:53
If you do make the complaint maybe try to make it less personal and more about improving the process. Just like you I have never seen a cone used as a stop sign, so I would recommend they use a portable stop sign or have an officer actually directing traffic.
Bingo!
I'll preface this by saying I'm LEO, therefore I may be biased. :secret:
Many years ago (about 18 years) my parents, brother and I were taking a trip and we were passing through a small rural town. My dad has always had a heavier than normal right foot and we were speeding (not sure exactly how much). Of course we rolled right passed a marked unit and were pulled over. The officer makes his ususal contact but is more curt than one would expect. My dad knew why he had been stopped but the officer never told him the specific reason. He just ID'd himself and asked for my dad's paperwork. My dad asks why the officer stopped him and that's when sugar turned to shit. The officer asks if my dad has an attitude problem to which my dad says no. Then the officer says "Is there something we need to talk about outside of the car?" My dad very politely tells him "Officer I can't think of anything we need to discuss outside of the car. Please just write the ticket so we can be on our way." After a few more gruff remarks he issued the ticket and we drove away. I never forgot the officer's name.
Fast forward to November of last year. I'm teaching a new firearms instructor course to outside agencies and who shows up? You guessed it. It was the same officer though now he was a SGT. Keep in mind that we had told this story for YEARS to family and friends. This SGT had no idea who I was or that I knew who he was.
One day at a lunch break I went up to him and asked if I could speak with him and he said sure. I told him that I needed to thank him and he asked what for. I told him that I'd had an encounter with him when I was much younger and the way he handled himself shaped how I treated people in public when I was in uniform. He had a smile on his face until I told him the story and I said "Anytime I felt myself getting pissed off when dealing with the public I would think back to how you treated my family and I would bite my tongue as I NEVER wanted someone to be telling stories about me and how much of an asshole I was for years to come." That's not how I wanted to be remembered as a LEO. I told him I didn't hold a grudge but I did want him to hear how one small traffic stop can affect someone's perception of LEO's.
Several weeks after the class I received a handwritten letter at my agency from this SGT. He asked that I deliver it to my dad. It was a lengthy apology for his actions and that he wished to speak with him over the phone. They spoke and had a good conversation but we all still think back to that day when we got stopped.
I know that's long winded but I told it for a reason. LEO's never know how they are going to affect someone's life for good or bad. We all have shitheads in our chosen professions but don't judge the many by the few. Be professional. Don't shy away from complaints. Use them to make you a better cop. If you don't then you need to find another line of work. We have a hard enough time without a small few ****ing things up for all. Your contact with someone will influence their perception of ALL LEO's. We all get bullshit complaints but I know that I've received a few that were probably warranted.
To the OP you need to handle it how you see fit. The internet will not hold a clear answer for you. If you and your family were highly offended then a complaint is probably warranted. Just be accurate in your account when you file it. I will say that getting smart with someone who obviously has a chip on their shoulder is not the best approach no matter how offensive his actions are. Take the needed steps and let it play out.
That's a powerful story.
Not that I need to be reassured because I've already said I don't have any ill will toward LEOs in general, but posts like this make an example for everyone to live by. A bad experience with an LEO eventually turned into something positive. I more or less bit my tongue because I knew the situation would turn to shit. I wonder how many people that guy jerked around until you made him eat crow? Maybe me filing this report makes these officers realize how to perform road blocks better and maybe the officer learns to control his temper.
If you do make the complaint maybe try to make it less personal and more about improving the process. Just like you I have never seen a cone used as a stop sign, so I would recommend they use a portable stop sign or have an officer actually directing traffic.
Absolutely because that was the root cause of the entire situation. If they would've set up the road block properly none of this would've happened. I didn't come here to complain about LEOs and with all the frivolous shit they get thrown in their face, this would probably go into that pile if I were to make it personal.
I will also say this we are not their to treat everyone we meet with kid gloves. Roadblocks are dangerous to work due to people not paying attention, being drunk, dicking around with cell phone, etc.
You might have been the 50th person to roll through there passed the cones and he reacted poorly but at the same time try to understand that you're not the one standing outside with moving traffic. 2000 lbs bullets flying by you will make you a little quick on the temper trigger.
I don't think LEO's should have to baby everyone and hold their hand or talk softly (not talking about the OP, the general public). If you get told to do something 9 times out of 10 we have a reason for it. Put on your big boy pants and do what's needed. Life will be easier.
I always loved what my first FTO told me. "People hate Law Enforcement and don't think we serve a purpose until they need us. And when they do we can never get their fast enough."
Another good one from him was "If you hate LEO's, next time you need help don't call 911. Call a crackhead."
I see what you're saying but people like that need to realize the same generalizations he's applying to citizens are just as stupid as the ones he's experienced and made him have that attitude.
SWATcop556
06-01-12, 11:16
I see what you're saying but people like that need to realize the same generalizations he's applying to citizens are just as stupid as the ones he's experienced and made him have that attitude.
Agreed. That's why I posted both sides. I seem to run into more issues with young new boots that have the weight of the badge and gun. But the older guard that are stuck in their ways are just as bad. Its a constantly evolving profession that EVERYONE (citizens and LEO's) need to adapt to.
QuietShootr
06-01-12, 11:45
I'll preface this by saying I'm LEO, therefore I may be biased. :secret:
Many years ago (about 18 years) my parents, brother and I were taking a trip and we were passing through a small rural town. My dad has always had a heavier than normal right foot and we were speeding (not sure exactly how much). Of course we rolled right passed a marked unit and were pulled over. The officer makes his ususal contact but is more curt than one would expect. My dad knew why he had been stopped but the officer never told him the specific reason. He just ID'd himself and asked for my dad's paperwork. My dad asks why the officer stopped him and that's when sugar turned to shit. The officer asks if my dad has an attitude problem to which my dad says no. Then the officer says "Is there something we need to talk about outside of the car?" My dad very politely tells him "Officer I can't think of anything we need to discuss outside of the car. Please just write the ticket so we can be on our way." After a few more gruff remarks he issued the ticket and we drove away. I never forgot the officer's name.
Fast forward to November of last year. I'm teaching a new firearms instructor course to outside agencies and who shows up? You guessed it. It was the same officer though now he was a SGT. Keep in mind that we had told this story for YEARS to family and friends. This SGT had no idea who I was or that I knew who he was.
One day at a lunch break I went up to him and asked if I could speak with him and he said sure. I told him that I needed to thank him and he asked what for. I told him that I'd had an encounter with him when I was much younger and the way he handled himself shaped how I treated people in public when I was in uniform. He had a smile on his face until I told him the story and I said "Anytime I felt myself getting pissed off when dealing with the public I would think back to how you treated my family and I would bite my tongue as I NEVER wanted someone to be telling stories about me and how much of an asshole I was for years to come." That's not how I wanted to be remembered as a LEO. I told him I didn't hold a grudge but I did want him to hear how one small traffic stop can affect someone's perception of LEO's.
Several weeks after the class I received a handwritten letter at my agency from this SGT. He asked that I deliver it to my dad. It was a lengthy apology for his actions and that he wished to speak with him over the phone. They spoke and had a good conversation but we all still think back to that day when we got stopped.
I know that's long winded but I told it for a reason. LEO's never know how they are going to affect someone's life for good or bad. We all have shitheads in our chosen professions but don't judge the many by the few. Be professional. Don't shy away from complaints. Use them to make you a better cop. If you don't then you need to find another line of work. We have a hard enough time without a small few ****ing things up for all. Your contact with someone will influence their perception of ALL LEO's. We all get bullshit complaints but I know that I've received a few that were probably warranted.
To the OP you need to handle it how you see fit. The internet will not hold a clear answer for you. If you and your family were highly offended then a complaint is probably warranted. Just be accurate in your account when you file it. I will say that getting smart with someone who obviously has a chip on their shoulder is not the best approach no matter how offensive his actions are. Take the needed steps and let it play out.
WOW. Best Post This Week.
I have a similar story, but mine had to do with a girl I was trying to bang, and I was the one who got caught with my pants down (metaphorically speaking). As a famous trainer says, "Learning Has Occurred."
SWATcop,
Truly excellent posts, we need more like you. Thank you and be safe.
WOW. Best Post This Week.
SWATcop,
Truly excellent posts, we need more like you. Thank you and be safe.
+10
A few years back my wife and I were on our way to Florida and had just crossed the state line. We were in this quaint little town called Florala. She was driving 15 or more over I think when a Florida highway patrol officer clocked her. I was thinking it was going to be ugly because of her speed and normally she will bite her tongue long enough to see how an officer is going to treat her then let him have it if he's a jerk. He gets out of his car and I see this tall really muscular dude and I'm thinking, great...a self absorbed prick.
This was the oddest experience because the officer was the most well mannered stranger I've ever met in my entire life. He didn't start with the rhetorical questions but just explained to her why he was pulling her over and how fast she was going. He cut her a break and only wrote the ticket for 10 over or less I think. He explained the court date and told us to be safe and have a nice trip then went back to his car. We both looked at each other like, "what the hell just happened?" I could tell he was just that type of person that doesn't fake sincerity or being cordial. Every time I'm pulled over or in a car with someone else being stopped, I always think back to that guy. Now I don't assume, "OK this guy's going to be a jackass" I think this guy could be just as decent.
I'm not saying they need to sing us lullabies or hold our hand but a little courtesy goes a long way to help with peoples' perception. Of course it's a two way street but the first person to engage another is usually the one that dictates the outcome, intended or not.
I wasn't quite in the same situation as the OP, but I did have a bit of an ongoing problem with a local LEO once. I was able to talk to the Chief (small town) and vent my frustrations to him. He asked me if I wanted to fill out a complaint, and I made it clear that I wasn't after the guy's career, but I did want him to stop going out of his way to jam me up. The Chief appreciated that, and told me it would stop. It did, and everybody lived happily ever after. No paper on him, no paper on me, and no more BS tickets from this guy. There's not time for all the backstory, but this was not me just irritated because he caught me speeding. It was like he thought I was humping his goats or something (I wasn't).
Anyway, maybe you can just have an unofficial chat with somebody to make sure they know the behavior was a little over the top. If it's a regular thing it'll get moderated, and if it was just a bad day it probably won't happen again anyway. I suppose if the department is small enough that you'll run into this LEO again, it's small enough to nip it in the bud without leaving a paper trail.
I'm sure there are scenarios where the officer is a bad seed and needs to be removed, but as of now we don't know that's the case here.
I'm also not a cop, so my thought process may be skewed by ignorance of the system...
I wasn't quite in the same situation as the OP, but I did have a bit of an ongoing problem with a local LEO once. I was able to talk to the Chief (small town) and vent my frustrations to him. He asked me if I wanted to fill out a complaint, and I made it clear that I wasn't after the guy's career, but I did want him to stop going out of his way to jam me up. The Chief appreciated that, and told me it would stop. It did, and everybody lived happily ever after. No paper on him, no paper on me, and no more BS tickets from this guy. There's not time for all the backstory, but this was not me just irritated because he caught me speeding. It was like he thought I was humping his goats or something (I wasn't).
Anyway, maybe you can just have an unofficial chat with somebody to make sure they know the behavior was a little over the top. If it's a regular thing it'll get moderated, and if it was just a bad day it probably won't happen again anyway. I suppose if the department is small enough that you'll run into this LEO again, it's small enough to nip it in the bud without leaving a paper trail.
I'm sure there are scenarios where the officer is a bad seed and needs to be removed, but as of now we don't know that's the case here.
I'm also not a cop, so my thought process may be skewed by ignorance of the system...
goathumper :lol:
I almost always try to take care of things informally. I'm not a complaint filing, sue happy person. This was a state trooper with the Birmingham office so it isn't a small town department where everybody knows everybody. I tried once again to speak to his SGT over the phone before I even seriously thought about filing the complaint form and his reaction was similar to what it was at the scene. Excuses, shortness, and no admission of wrongdoing. Maybe I'll try to go above his head but I'm not holding my breath on any success.
Would you want that on your conscience or would you want to know that you at least did something that could've prevented that from happening?
You were there, I/we were not, so go with your conscience. From what I get from your post, no, I would not bother, take it as worst as I fu$#^ up and or LEO having a bad day or what ever, and go on with my life. I can only respond what it you wrote, and so not being there to see/hear the situation, can't judge very well if, for example, it was really obvious you were supposed to stop at the cone and so forth.
Remember, up until just recently (2010 I believe), more LEOs killed by cars than guns, so what may seem like a simple job of waving people through, etc to you, is potentially high risk activity to them, so tempers tend to go up when what seems fairly unimportant to the driver (going past cones where you were supposed to stop for example) is not a small issue for them per se. His response may have not been appropriate to what you did, but it's also a place people are often surprised by just how mad they get from what seems no big deal to the driver..
I was once waved ahead by an LEO at a construction site and when I came around the corner another LEO went ballistic on me for coming through the construction zone. Some miscommunication on their end made for a unhappy experience on my end.
But, we got it sorted out, I didn't get a ticket, and i ended up bumping into one of them at an IDPA match a few weeks later and he was very friendly.
bnanaphone
06-01-12, 15:52
SwatCop556, great story and thanks for sharing.
My most recent interaction was very pleasant and I commend the officer on his professionalism and courtesy, since he could have easily gone the other way, given the circumstances.
This past January 5 shooting buddies and I were at some family property in rural MO, nearest house is 1 mile away. One of the guys is a local LEO in St. Louis. We arrived on a Thursday afternoon for our annual "Guy's weekend", shooting, cigars, steak, a bacon explosion and beers (after the guns have been put away).
The first night is always a bit rowdy and we enjoyed firing some guns into the bottom field 100 yards away; tracers, .308, 5.56, 9mm, etc. It was about 9:30 P.M. and roughly 200 rounds have been fired. I was busy with fresh rounds in my left hand and a 30 round magazine in my right when someone knocked on the door. I opened it to see a county officer standing there to inquire if we had been doing the shooting and there had been a noise complaint. (Now remember it is pitch black out, many shots had been fired, and a lone officer comes to investigate.)
He asked who owned the house, who we were and if he could see all IDs. We all quickly complied and invited him in. Once he entered the officer asked if we were gun dealers (there were 7+ rifle cases lying around). We quickly asked if he wanted to see what we have and he stayed for a bit to take a look. My buddy who is LEO even invited him to come shoot with us the following day. He declined, but suggested that we stop shooting at sunset (I agree that it is a good idea.)
All in all, the officer was very courteous and professional. Fortunately it was my first encounter with the local LEO and I hope any, potential, future interactions are equally as pleasant.
I glad to see that this thread did Not go south Swatcop thank you for your story it makes one stop and think .To all here that is LE Please be safe out there and thank you for all you do .
GeorgiaBoy
06-01-12, 22:04
I've seen sobriety check points, I've heard of 'safety' checkpoints. I've never heard of papers checkpoints? Is that just an Alabama thing?
With the number of uninsured people and unlicensed people, I'm not totally against them- it's just what would you do with an illegal immigrant with out a drivers license and with out insurance? From what I saw in Ohio they get a ticket and you hope they show up for court. How effective is that?
"License checks" are fairly common here in Georgia.. And they are pretty clearly for checking of identification, but it also doubles as a DUI checkpoint.
They are nearly exclusively seen at night, any day of the week.
CarlosDJackal
06-02-12, 10:44
I can emphatize with the OP. Besides LEOs, I've also had negative encounters with the following:
- Firefighters
- EMTs
- Nurses
- Doctors
- Dentists
- Waiters and waitresses
- Bartenders
- Cooks
- Soldiers (of all branches)
- Civil Servants
- Cable TV technicians
- Mechanics
- Pharmacists
- Janitors
- Salesmen of all types
- Bankers
- Tellers
- Security guards
- Flight attendants
- Plumbers
- OTHERS (I would be at this a long time if I listed all of them).
Yeah, I think it's a freaking epidemic of sorts.
You were there, I/we were not, so go with your conscience. From what I get from your post, no, I would not bother, take it as worst as I fu$#^ up and or LEO having a bad day or what ever, and go on with my life. I can only respond what it you wrote, and so not being there to see/hear the situation, can't judge very well if, for example, it was really obvious you were supposed to stop at the cone and so forth.
Remember, up until just recently (2010 I believe), more LEOs killed by cars than guns, so what may seem like a simple job of waving people through, etc to you, is potentially high risk activity to them, so tempers tend to go up when what seems fairly unimportant to the driver (going past cones where you were supposed to stop for example) is not a small issue for them per se. His response may have not been appropriate to what you did, but it's also a place people are often surprised by just how mad they get from what seems no big deal to the driver..
I was once waved ahead by an LEO at a construction site and when I came around the corner another LEO went ballistic on me for coming through the construction zone. Some miscommunication on their end made for a unhappy experience on my end.
But, we got it sorted out, I didn't get a ticket, and i ended up bumping into one of them at an IDPA match a few weeks later and he was very friendly.
In general I agree with this. We weren't there, you were. But based on what you wrote, I wouldn't file a complaint. I understand that he should have handled the situation better and SWATcop wrote a couple of excellent posts covering both sides. Honestly though, cops are people and people have bad days. Maybe his girlfriend left him right before he was going on shift or he had a loved one in the hospital or any one of a number of things. His approach was unprofessional, but unlike a lot of others, if he's having a crap day, he can't just go lock himself in his office and not deal with people.
Honestly, everyone has crappy days. If he was having one, he may not have realized that his attitude was less than professional. Also, if another officer or supervisor was in earshot of the exchange, you never know what happened later. Someone may have already explained to him "what a nice guy" he was being.
I'll preface this by saying I'm LEO, therefore I may be biased. :secret:...
Thank you for your service and for providing the kind insightful and professional leadership and training all of us can use and not just in the field of police work. (I am not in LE.) This is the level of professionalism and leadership my brother, who is a LEO in Texas, constantly strives for.
sqwerl, file your complaint or contact the station and do so in a professional manner. In my opinion, the road block was set up in such a fashion that was ambiguous at best and posed a possible danger to civilians and officers alike.
Perhaps it was the 50th time someone misread the situation. If so, that should be a clue something was wrong with the layout.
I have great respect for our LEOs. The majority of my experiences with them have been very positive and they have provided me needed assistance. But it's frustrating when dealing with a situation that devolves into an escalating confrontation because of the mistakes the officer makes.
I don't expect officers to treat me with kid gloves, but I do expect to receive in return the professional courtesy I extend them.
I want to make it clear that I have no contention with police officers. They are just like me- folks who just want to do their jobs and get home to their families at the end of their shift
Swatcop knocked it out of the park. Yeah, everyone has a bad day and le dudes are not immune. But the difference is that leo's have to hold themselves to a higher standard than the next guy (whether that guy flips burgers or is a corporate executive). Those of you excusing inappropriate behavior on the part of leo's (not saying it happened here) with the "grow thicker skin" argument, you need to look long and hard into why you are still in this career.
I don't know the op or his exact situation so I don't know if he is being too sensitive or if the situation was handled with unnecessary aggression. But the bottom line is that IF the situation could have been handled with a more professional attitude, it would have resulted in one less negative contact shared on the internet. I said "IF" because I wasn't there and, from the pov of the leo, maybe the op's actions justified his approach. Very little can be determined from one side of a story.
Yeah, everyone has a bad day and le dudes are not immune. But the difference is that leo's have to hold themselves to a higher standard than the next guy (whether that guy flips burgers or is a corporate executive).
With all due respect, I'm not sure I agree. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but to me you're saying that LEO need to hold themselves to a standard of professionalism, but others are allowed to react however their mood swings. There's something wrong with that in the way that society should hold themselves to a professional/politeness standard, not just LEO.
As I said above, maybe he just had a bad day and didn't realize he was being unprofessional or maybe the OP is too sensitive. Swatcop also pointed out that LEOs aren't there to hold someone's hand either. We're hearing one side of this. There's also the possibility that the OP started the events off by being rude and maybe he doesn't know it. Professionalism and or politeness goes both ways. It isn't just LEOs that should be professional and polite, but people in general. I think that's often overlooked on the societal level.
Fill out the form and mail it in if that is what you feel is right. No need to go any further.
Littlelebowski
06-03-12, 14:29
I'd love to have a beer with SWATcop556. What a good post.
Littlelebowski
06-03-12, 14:31
What is the legality of roadblocks for license and insurance checks? State by state or is there federal precedence? I seem to remember these type of checkpoints being challenged in some states which (for now) is something I very strongly support.
What is the legality of roadblocks for license and insurance checks? State by state or is there federal precedence? I seem to remember these type of checkpoints being challenged in some states which (for now) is something I very strongly support.
Should be illegal everywhere. "Show me your papers" without PC or RS is un-American. No person should be detained, even briefly, without PC.
However, registration and/or inspection sticker checkpoints are legal because we're talking about plain view. In fact, they don't even make you stop, they just slow everyone down to a crawl and look at your stickers, asking drivers with expired stickers to pull off to the side.
I have literally had thousands of interactions with the public over 13 years. Some have been negative. I will admit to being responsible for a few of those earlier in my career.
The public often fails to recognize that in any interaction with a LEO, the LEO is in charge. A traffic stop will be conducted as the LEO wishes, in the order the LEO wishes. This is necessary for the safety of the motorist and the LEO. As you are being detained, the LEO is responsible for your safety. If he wants to go by the numbers, the stop will go by the numbers.
When people try and disrupt your routine on a traffic stop, it is often rightly viewed as a pre-assault indicator intended to put you off balance. Tickets are disputed in court not on the side of the highway.
If you choose to file a compliant, keep it factual. I have been subject to numerous compliant's that were just plain fantasy. I am 5'7" tall. I have been accused of physical feats, I could not accomplish while on PCP. Once the reviewing authority finds inaccuracies or fabrications in a complaint, it will hit the "circular file."
Nothing is more offensive than having a BS complaint filed. I once had a motorist I arrested for a drivers license related charge claim I repeatedly called her the N word. (I hate that word, don't use it, and don't like hearing it used. My Godparents are black and I was raised properly.) Luckily, the stop was on video and I had a lapel microphone that captured the entire interaction. This includes her being escorted to my vehicle in handcuffs until a motorist of her ethnic persuasion drove by, causing her on two occasions to throw herself to the ground screaming "police brutality" as the vehicles drove by slowly.
Keep it impersonal. Keep it factual.
When people try and disrupt your routine on a traffic stop, it is often rightly viewed as a pre-assault indicator intended to put you off balance.
I can appreciate that, which is why if I am a pedestrian and stopped and questioned or asked for ID, I'd most likely just humor them. I get that some folks feel they're within their rights to refuse, and that may be true, but I also don't want to give the cop a hard time or an excuse to get hostile toward me. Maybe that makes me a poor excuse for a libertarian or constitutionalist or whatever, but at the same time, I can respect the job the police are trying to do and see it from their perspective. Then again, I don't open carry so what do I know.
I used to be friends with most of the cops in the town closest to us and the county cops steered clear of me because of politics. Now I'm older and don't hardly even know any of the current town police officers, and the some of the county guys and the some cops in the city 15 miles away that I know all want to come out and shoot my rifles because I have stuff they haven't seen.
I'm going to tell this story just because I think it's funny. I was sneaking out on a former wife about midnight and on my way to town I saw a guy walking down the road covered in blood. I stopped. He was hurt bad. I let him get in my car and proceeded to take him to the hospital. He was a deaf mute. Turned out I knew his sister. Anyway he wanted to go home and I was taking him to the hospital because I was afraid he'd die. We're making hand signals and writing notes.
I force him to go to the hospital. Drop him off and my Mom and Dad are there. They'd taken my younger brother to the ER because they thought he was having heart trouble, turned out to be gas. I stick around.
The hurt guy's parents show up and thank me for taking him to the hospital. My brother is ok and it's too late for my rendezvous so I head home. Take the same road. When I get to where I picked the guy up there's county and town cops everywhere and they're searching the field. The field across the road from where the guy's car is wrecked in the trees. I stop and talk to the officer.
"Move along, no gawking here"
"Look, I took the guy in the wreck to the hospital. You're looking for his car in the wrong field, it's over there in the trees, just trying to help"
" I said move along!! Am I going to have to arrest you to get you out of the way?
"OK, good luck finding the wrecked car"
Then I went on home. My Dad said when he came along an hour later later they were still out there with lights searching the wrong field. He lives down the road from me and takes the same way home from town.
Thank if Freaking Funny Shit! I bet they are still looking for that car.
What is the legality of roadblocks for license and insurance checks? State by state or is there federal precedence? I seem to remember these type of checkpoints being challenged in some states which (for now) is something I very strongly support.
I would say it is State by State or at least Circuit by Circuit.
We run DUI check points here in VT and there are very strict rules for their set up. We need to list the upcomming events with the media, not the exact time and location but the general location and times/dates. Signs are a HUGE part of these events, and we need to leave traffic a way out so they can avoid the clearly marked check point ahead. We have very strict limitations on what we can say during the initial interaction as well.
We also need warrants to search trash. :D
SwatCop That is a powerful story, hillarious, and powerful. I wish I could have been a fly on the wall when you told the guy the story.
On a happy note I spent yesterday at our local Kid's Fest. Another officer and I spend 4 hours fitting kids with new bike helmets, we also registered a few bikes. While I was helping a little girl with her helmet her Mom smiled at me and told her daughter that I installed her baby seat before she was born. I smiled back and thanked her for remembering me and sharing the story. She was 5 years old. I didn't remember the install but Mom did and she was still smiling about how well I installed the seat and how great it made her feel. That made my day.
We as in everyone, not just cops, don't often hear the good things only the complaints.
I'm a small town police chief here in VT. Been a cop here in VT since 1992.
With all due respect, I'm not sure I agree. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but to me you're saying that LEO need to hold themselves to a standard of professionalism, but others are allowed to react however their mood swings. There's something wrong with that in the way that society should hold themselves to a professional/politeness standard, not just LEO.
As I said above, maybe he just had a bad day and didn't realize he was being unprofessional or maybe the OP is too sensitive. Swatcop also pointed out that LEOs aren't there to hold someone's hand either. We're hearing one side of this. There's also the possibility that the OP started the events off by being rude and maybe he doesn't know it. Professionalism and or politeness goes both ways. It isn't just LEOs that should be professional and polite, but people in general. I think that's often overlooked on the societal level.
The difference is public trust. It really is that simple. I can expand on that but you should be able to see, on many levels, Why there is a difference between your local burger flipper having a bad day and acting unprofessionally verses a law enforcement officer. But I do agree that everyone should strive to be polite.
And in my post I specifically mentioned that we only have one side of the story and the officer may well have had cause to react with a higher level of aggression. I wasn't there.
I would say it is State by State or at least Circuit by Circuit.
We run DUI check points here in VT and there are very strict rules for their set up. We need to list the upcomming events with the media, not the exact time and location but the general location and times/dates. Signs are a HUGE part of these events, and we need to leave traffic a way out so they can avoid the clearly marked check point ahead. We have very strict limitations on what we can say during the initial interaction as well.
I may be misunderstanding something here but are you being facetious saying your roadblocks are clearly marked just so people can avoid them? I believe here if someone turns around to avoid the roadblock they're chased and pulled over. I'm not entirely sure.
Anyway, it's interesting you bring that up because I've felt all along what I went through was setup in a stealthy way not to tip people off that it was a roadblock. I believe they had it situated at the Y in the road so no one could turn the opposite direction to avoid it and snag as many drinkers as possible. I think if they would've posted a stop sign it may have tipped more people off. Of course I don't have proof of that but if so they were endangering their lives as someone else pointed out. Now that I think about it, I seem to remember the state trooper stepping out so close to the corner of my car if I would've kept driving I would've at minimum run over his foot or possibly hurt him badly. Why would he do something that stupid when all he would have to do is send a car after me if I blew through the roadblock?
I'm not going to try to convince anyone that I did nothing wrong but I can tell you that in the nearly 19 years I've been driving I've never had issues at the MANY roadblocks I've been through. For all any of you know I could be making all of this shit up. But stop and ask yourself what would I have to gain by doing that?
The difference is public trust. It really is that simple. I can expand on that but you should be able to see, on many levels, Why there is a difference between your local burger flipper having a bad day and acting unprofessionally verses a law enforcement officer. But I do agree that everyone should strive to be polite.
And in my post I specifically mentioned that we only have one side of the story and the officer may well have had cause to react with a higher level of aggression. I wasn't there.
+1
Nobody should expect LE to be perfect or baby us but public perception is on the line, as SWATcop556 selflessly pointed out, and they have much more power over how situations turn out. There's a fine line between using that power properly and abusing it.
I know better myself, but I could see why if no one in their life have had a good experience with LE then they would most often see them as negative authority figures. It's usually out of most of your control but anything you can do to improve relations is always better for everyone.
Nope I was serious. We have to leave people a way to turn off or turn around for the roadblock to be legal.
Nope I was serious. We have to leave people a way to turn off or turn around for the roadblock to be legal.
Christ, they would laugh their asses off at that idea here :lol:
Some of the shady things LE has done in this area has always struck me as borderline illegal or in risk of public safety. It's not uncommon for them to put a decoy "broken down" vehicle on the side of the interstate under an overpass with a guy shooting radar and radioing to have a marked car pull you over ahead. That's happened to a buddy when I was in the car with him.
It's funny how much leeway LE has in different areas versus stricter regulations such as in your state.
SWATcop556
06-04-12, 10:03
I'd love to have a beer with SWATcop556. What a good post.
Well I drink Shinerbock and I'm always up for cold beverages with fellow shooters. Hopefully we find ourselves in a class together one day.
SWATcop556
06-04-12, 10:28
Nothing is more offensive than having a BS complaint filed. I once had a motorist I arrested for a drivers license related charge claim I repeatedly called her the N word. (I hate that word, don't use it, and don't like hearing it used. My Godparents are black and I was raised properly.) Luckily, the stop was on video and I had a lapel microphone that captured the entire interaction. This includes her being escorted to my vehicle in handcuffs until a motorist of her ethnic persuasion drove by, causing her on two occasions to throw herself to the ground screaming "police brutality" as the vehicles drove by slowly.
Keep it impersonal. Keep it factual.
I had one come in from a suspect who accused me of throwing him to the ground after a foot pursuit and he landed face down on the concrete and knocked two teeth out (this part was true). He then proceeded to say that I kicked him in the ribs several times (not true) knelt down and stuck my gun in his face and told him I should blow his head off for making me run (also not true). He said he knew he was going to die because he saw me thumb back the hammer on my sidearm while the muzzle was digging into his forehead.
I was called in by IA and the suspect was there with his attorney. I was asked about the situation and I referred IA to my report of what had happened. The attorney then asked me about why I had threatened to kill the suspect. I stated I had not. The issue was by the time I had completed the foot pursuit I was too far from my patrol unit and my microphone was out of range for audio to transmit so there was no audio recording of the incident he described. The attorney then told me he KNEW I threatened to kill his client because the suspect had seen me cock my gun while it was pointed at his face. I just sat there and smiled.
He asked what was so funny and I asked IA if I could remove my handgun from its holster. They said sure and I removed my G17 from the holster, cleared the weapon, and laid it on the table. I asked the attorney for him to cock the weapon by thumbing back the hammer. He was not a gun person so he had no ide what I was talking about.
You see, the last time I had dealt with the suspect (shithead) was over a year prior to this incident. Our last encounter almost left his dead and he had several officers point sidearms and rifles at him. I was the one he remembered and he hated my guts. I also had arrested several of his family members since the original incident. What he failed to realize was that I no longer carried a 1911. I had switched to the G17 as my duty weapon and carried a G26 as a BUG long befor this incident occurred. There was no hammer to thumb back. When I dealt with him the first time I was carrying my 1911.
Bullshit complaints will happen. It's part of the job. Just know that you are doing the best you can and try not to let personal BS bleed over into work. You just never know how you will be perceived.
I never had an issue with my patrol unit's in car camera when I was in uniform. I actually wouldn't work without one. It covers the Officer and the public. It is unbiased and has never heard of the thin blue line. It also doesn't see dollar signs and think of law suits. Plus with cellphone cameras, facebook, twitter, youtube, etc. you might as well act like you are ALWAYS on camera. Just as I don't want to be the officer that ruins a young persons perception of LEO's I also don't want to be the next officer going viral on the web.
Heavy Metal
06-04-12, 10:47
"do you have an attitude problem?"
^ That is what would have gotten an official complaint from me.
He lost his professional demeanor and made it personal. This is NOT just him trying to maintain control of the situation, this is simply being an unprofessional ass.
As a former supervisor once told me:" It is alot easier to dial the asshole up than it is to dial it back down."
Said Officer needs some remedial training in public interaction. You can be forecful and maintain control without being personal. That type of crack ins unnecessairly incendiary and helpful to no one including the person stating it.
Voodoo_Man
06-04-12, 10:52
I wish we had video and audio. Often times its our word vs. theirs, which does not mean much to some of the investigators in IA. Everyone gets complaints, its a byproduct of dealing with lowlife scum.
SWATcop556
06-04-12, 11:04
In this day and age it never ceases to amaze me that there are departments without audio/video in their units. I understand that it is expensive and I only work at a mid-sized agency and the logistics for a large agency would be a nightmare, but the money saved in lawsuits and other bullshit is worth it.
At the very least go out and buy some of these : http://i-kamstore.com/
I have some in the flat black that I use for training and they are a great tool. I've used them on surveillance before as well. They look similar to the Oakley glasses with the MP3.
Littlelebowski
06-04-12, 12:09
SwatCop nailed it. Video and audio recording helps everyone.
Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2
Voodoo_Man
06-04-12, 13:24
We have no policy for audio/video, yet. I have recorded issue situations on my phone just because of the things that happen next will be a lot of finger pointing, the IA guys don't mind it as we are allowed.
I wanted to get something I can clip to my front pocket and slide on/off when I need it.
SWATcop556
06-04-12, 14:27
We have no policy for audio/video, yet. I have recorded issue situations on my phone just because of the things that happen next will be a lot of finger pointing, the IA guys don't mind it as we are allowed.
I wanted to get something I can clip to my front pocket and slide on/off when I need it.
The ones that clip to the chest are ok but, just like the shoulder mounted ones, you have a harder time controling the POV of the camera. The iKam works well because it sees what you see. The iKam downloads to your computer and you can just create a file with each officer. In TX we have to keep videos for 90 days to handle any possible complaints.
The drawback to the chest mounted ones is when speaking with a female is is basically a constant boob shot. The benefit is that it's easy to explain away. The bad part about the iKam is that any "headchecks" are easily picked up. :blink:
It's give and take but crappy video and audio is better than he said/he dead. If your department allows it then I would be proactive in covering your ass. Nothing is better than when IA wants to know what happened and you can lay an HD DVD on their desk.
Voodoo_Man
06-04-12, 14:33
The ones that clip to the chest are ok but, just like the shoulder mounted ones, you have a harder time controling the POV of the camera. The iKam works well because it sees what you see. The iKam downloads to your computer and you can just create a file with each officer. In TX we have to keep videos for 90 days to handle any possible complaints.
The drawback to the chest mounted ones is when speaking with a female is is basically a constant boob shot. The benefit is that it's easy to explain away. The bad part about the iKam is that any "headchecks" are easily picked up. :blink:
It's give and take but crappy video and audio is better than he said/he dead. If your department allows it then I would be proactive in covering your ass. Nothing is better than when IA wants to know what happened and you can lay an HD DVD on their desk.
We have no "policy" on audio/video currently, but I have successfully used cellphone recorded interactions in IA before. I like the chest mounted recorded because they are normally better for night-time (which I primarily work). How do the ikam's work at night?
^ That is what would have gotten an official complaint from me.
He lost his professional demeanor and made it personal. This is NOT just him trying to maintain control of the situation, this is simply being an unprofessional ass.
As a former supervisor once told me:" It is alot easier to dial the asshole up than it is to dial it back down."
Said Officer needs some remedial training in public interaction. You can be forecful and maintain control without being personal. That type of crack ins unnecessairly incendiary and helpful to no one including the person stating it.
If he would've chewed my ass about the road block and actually been able to EXPLAIN to me why what I did was wrong that would've been fine. He picked the address issue to further escalate into full tool mode. It was during that discussion he fired off the question about my "attitude problem." It was all I could do to bite my tongue and not say "no officer, but it sure seems like you do." I wasn't going to lower myself to his level plus my wife and the girl had already been through enough drama without me making him angrier.
I had one come in from a suspect who accused me of throwing him to the ground after a foot pursuit and he landed face down on the concrete and knocked two teeth out (this part was true). He then proceeded to say that I kicked him in the ribs several times (not true) knelt down and stuck my gun in his face and told him I should blow his head off for making me run (also not true). He said he knew he was going to die because he saw me thumb back the hammer on my sidearm while the muzzle was digging into his forehead.
I was called in by IA and the suspect was there with his attorney. I was asked about the situation and I referred IA to my report of what had happened. The attorney then asked me about why I had threatened to kill the suspect. I stated I had not. The issue was by the time I had completed the foot pursuit I was too far from my patrol unit and my microphone was out of range for audio to transmit so there was no audio recording of the incident he described. The attorney then told me he KNEW I threatened to kill his client because the suspect had seen me cock my gun while it was pointed at his face. I just sat there and smiled.
He asked what was so funny and I asked IA if I could remove my handgun from its holster. They said sure and I removed my G17 from the holster, cleared the weapon, and laid it on the table. I asked the attorney for him to cock the weapon by thumbing back the hammer. He was not a gun person so he had no ide what I was talking about.
You see, the last time I had dealt with the suspect (shithead) was over a year prior to this incident. Our last encounter almost left his dead and he had several officers point sidearms and rifles at him. I was the one he remembered and he hated my guts. I also had arrested several of his family members since the original incident. What he failed to realize was that I no longer carried a 1911. I had switched to the G17 as my duty weapon and carried a G26 as a BUG long befor this incident occurred. There was no hammer to thumb back. When I dealt with him the first time I was carrying my 1911.
Bullshit complaints will happen. It's part of the job. Just know that you are doing the best you can and try not to let personal BS bleed over into work. You just never know how you will be perceived.
I never had an issue with my patrol unit's in car camera when I was in uniform. I actually wouldn't work without one. It covers the Officer and the public. It is unbiased and has never heard of the thin blue line. It also doesn't see dollar signs and think of law suits. Plus with cellphone cameras, facebook, twitter, youtube, etc. you might as well act like you are ALWAYS on camera. Just as I don't want to be the officer that ruins a young persons perception of LEO's I also don't want to be the next officer going viral on the web.
Ah, sweet vindication! Once again, I would love to have been there. Seeing the looks on their faces would've been PRICELESS!
The ones that clip to the chest are ok but, just like the shoulder mounted ones, you have a harder time controling the POV of the camera. The iKam works well because it sees what you see. The iKam downloads to your computer and you can just create a file with each officer. In TX we have to keep videos for 90 days to handle any possible complaints.
The drawback to the chest mounted ones is when speaking with a female is is basically a constant boob shot. The benefit is that it's easy to explain away. The bad part about the iKam is that any "headchecks" are easily picked up. :blink:
It's give and take but crappy video and audio is better than he said/he dead. If your department allows it then I would be proactive in covering your ass. Nothing is better than when IA wants to know what happened and you can lay an HD DVD on their desk.
See, you do get a few perks us average joes don't get to enjoy and not get smacked by your wife or have to explain. "Ma'am, please slowly turn and face me...now please turn SLOWLY and face the vehicle." 360 degree POV. Where do I sign up. :D
As a kid with a brand new "fast sports car" I used to get pulled over a lot from 2001 to 2004ish until I wised up.
I always answered all questioned and requests/commands with respect [hoping it would help me out somehow], but the one thing that I noticed, and this was 100% true in my case, is that local township LEO's were always considerably rude and the NJ State Police guys were always cool and professional.
I guess there are good people and bad people in every profession. As a general rule, being an Architect I instantly distrust any contractor, and I am sure they all hate me and think I have no idea what Im talking about.
If you feel strongly that you were wronged, I would fill out a complaint, I am sure it will go nowhere however but who knows.
Good luck.
Cincinnatus
06-04-12, 15:59
Well I drink Shinerbock and I'm always up for cold beverages with fellow shooters. Hopefully we find ourselves in a class together one day.
Visited the Shiner brewery? Great place to see, and they have a tasting bar in their gift shop. :cool:
CarlosDJackal
06-05-12, 08:15
...I wanted to get something I can clip to my front pocket and slide on/off when I need it.
Like this? UZI Law Cam PD99 (http://www.botachtactical.com/lawcampd80.html)
Voodoo_Man
06-05-12, 09:06
Like this? UZI Law Cam PD99 (http://www.botachtactical.com/lawcampd80.html)
Yep, something like that, switch on and off easily.
QuietShootr
06-05-12, 09:32
Christ, they would laugh their asses off at that idea here :lol:
Some of the shady things LE has done in this area has always struck me as borderline illegal or in risk of public safety. It's not uncommon for them to put a decoy "broken down" vehicle on the side of the interstate under an overpass with a guy shooting radar and radioing to have a marked car pull you over ahead. That's happened to a buddy when I was in the car with him.
It's funny how much leeway LE has in different areas versus stricter regulations such as in your state.
They have to do that here, too, but they had a twist on it. They'd put a sign on the interstate saying "DUI Checkpoint Ahead" then actually set the checkpoint up at the bottom of the next exit.
The state supreme court soundly bitchslapped the state police for that shit.
SWATcop556
06-05-12, 12:10
They have to do that here, too, but they had a twist on it. They'd put a sign on the interstate saying "DUI Checkpoint Ahead" then actually set the checkpoint up at the bottom of the next exit.
The state supreme court soundly bitchslapped the state police for that shit.
Completely unethical by state law and funny as hell all at the same time. :dance3:
QuietShootr
06-05-12, 12:55
Completely unethical by state law and funny as hell all at the same time. :dance3:
In-car video would have been hilarious, for sure.
"Hey, you better get off here."
"All right, man.... AW, ****."
SWATcop556
06-05-12, 13:48
In-car video would have been hilarious, for sure.
"Hey, you better get off here."
"All right, man.... AW, ****."
Like a bad episode of one of those bait cars shows. :alcoholic:
montanadave
06-05-12, 14:07
They have to do that here, too, but they had a twist on it. They'd put a sign on the interstate saying "DUI Checkpoint Ahead" then actually set the checkpoint up at the bottom of the next exit.
The state supreme court soundly bitchslapped the state police for that shit.
Just curious. Why would this be illegal? Doesn't seem much different than setting up scales on the exit before highway weigh stations to nab truckers running overweight.
Just curious. Why would this be illegal? Doesn't seem much different than setting up scales on the exit before highway weigh stations to nab truckers running overweight.
QuietShootr is saying, unless I'm mistaken, it's the law in his area like SWATcop556 said applies in his area that LE has to leave drivers a way out of a DUI checkpoint. By tricking them and putting the checkpoint off the next exit that people wanting to avoid the roadblock will likely take, they're breaking the law. It's entrapment.
Belmont31R
06-06-12, 00:02
I can emphatize with the OP. Besides LEOs, I've also had negative encounters with the following:
- Firefighters
- EMTs
- Nurses
- Doctors
- Dentists
- Waiters and waitresses
- Bartenders
- Cooks
- Soldiers (of all branches)
- Civil Servants
- Cable TV technicians
- Mechanics
- Pharmacists
- Janitors
- Salesmen of all types
- Bankers
- Tellers
- Security guards
- Flight attendants
- Plumbers
- OTHERS (I would be at this a long time if I listed all of them).
Yeah, I think it's a freaking epidemic of sorts.
One thing I have learned is not to give respect to someone just because of their job title. I am sure there are plenty of janitors out there who have human to human compassion and I would rate as being a better human than a shitty doctor.
Bar keeps and waiters I can give some credit to more than I used to. I actually think its better to have a good waiter/waitress than a good restaurant. Going all the way back to HS my best friend and I went to the same place every weekend, and had the the same waitress. We always tipped her well, and my buddy actually met his wife at that place....she worked there. If you know how to cook you go out because you don't want to deal with dishes, going to the store to get xyz, and it can be nice to just get out. The drinks may not always be as strong as you want them but I can understand it.
My wife being in nursing people tend to treat nurses like servants, and if you work in a downtown ER you deal with the scum. Its basically a "retail" type business, and people think nurses are there to coddle them 24/7 or have a BSN nurse coddling their loved one 24/7 becuase they got a boo boo.
As far as soldiers go the discipline has gone down, and although I wouldn't want "wall to wall" counseling Id have appreciated my time in more if the dude to my right wasn't there because of college money or because he married his HS **** buddy who popped out a kid. My time in signal units was disappointing because of racial bias and lack of basic standards. The military is a reflection on modern society and I got sick of everything from racial and sexual bias to rank bias. An O1 who didn't even know how to program a SINCGARS for non secure comms was our platoon leader.
One thing I have learned is not to give respect to someone just because of their job title. I am sure there are plenty of janitors out there who have human to human compassion and I would rate as being a better human than a shitty doctor.
Agreed, a good job does not make a good person. An asshole can **** up a good job. I've known some really good people in the LE, Fire and EMT community but it SEEMS as if the a-holes out number the good ones, but that may well be true for all walks of life as well. It is quite nice to have some one with Swatcop's personality aboard.
one thing that I noticed, and this was 100% true in my case, is that local township LEO's were always considerably rude and the NJ State Police guys were always cool and professional.
It's the opposite here from what I've observed. The Sheriffs dept and city police are great, friendly public servants. The NYSP I've encountered have been gruff and stern and robotic.
QuietShootr
06-06-12, 07:54
One thing I have learned is not to give respect to someone just because of their job title. I am sure there are plenty of janitors out there who have human to human compassion and I would rate as being a better human than a shitty doctor.
Bar keeps and waiters I can give some credit to more than I used to. I actually think its better to have a good waiter/waitress than a good restaurant. Going all the way back to HS my best friend and I went to the same place every weekend, and had the the same waitress. We always tipped her well, and my buddy actually met his wife at that place....she worked there. If you know how to cook you go out because you don't want to deal with dishes, going to the store to get xyz, and it can be nice to just get out. The drinks may not always be as strong as you want them but I can understand it.
My wife being in nursing people tend to treat nurses like servants, and if you work in a downtown ER you deal with the scum. Its basically a "retail" type business, and people think nurses are there to coddle them 24/7 or have a BSN nurse coddling their loved one 24/7 becuase they got a boo boo.
As far as soldiers go the discipline has gone down, and although I wouldn't want "wall to wall" counseling Id have appreciated my time in more if the dude to my right wasn't there because of college money or because he married his HS **** buddy who popped out a kid. My time in signal units was disappointing because of racial bias and lack of basic standards. The military is a reflection on modern society and I got sick of everything from racial and sexual bias to rank bias. An O1 who didn't even know how to program a SINCGARS for non secure comms was our platoon leader.
I was profoundly disillusioned my first 6 months in the Army. I was raised in a family where everyone served, Grandpa was a SFC turned Master Gunner who was at Pearl Harbor, Dad was in the 82nd, and I once found a picture of him with 11 other guys wearing funny hats, but in black-and-white I couldn't tell what color they were. They both had graduate degrees, so I was around educated folks too.
I was very disappointed to find out a shit-ton of the brothers weren't brave or smart and the sisters definitely weren't virtuous.
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