View Full Version : Brass or steel? 5.56/.223
TboxCrusher
06-03-12, 20:09
Is there any huge significance to using either steel or brass. I've shot many thousands of rds....all brass but why not use steel if its cheaper?
The search function would yield more answers than you'd care to read, it helps a lot when you use it.
That being said, steel cased ammo is dirtier and less reliable than brass cased. Mixing brass and steel will also cause malfunctions in some guns.
it can wear on your extractor .But I have shot a few thousand of the steel case No problems for me .But I use a Quality BCM BCG in my Colt what rifle and BCG are you using ?
Most of My brass is M855 and i keep that for SHTF Mostly
Steel cased ammo is fine for training. I would clean your rifle well after shooting lots of it before relying on the rifle for defensive purposes.
Evil Colt 6920
06-03-12, 21:03
I havent personally seen any actual evidence as to steel cases wearing out parts faster. But in theory, it makes sense. I simply do not buy steel cased ammo because Id rather have the brass for reloading. Even if you dont reload, and feel you might someday, you will thank yourself later for shooting brass and saving it. The brass is one the more expensive components of reloading. The few bucks extra you spend now on brass vs steel will save you money in the long run since you can reuse that brass several times.
I sometimes buy steel stuff if I will be shooting at a range that does not allow me to pick up my brass. For example, attending a class at a foreign range with said policy (yes, they do exist).
Otherwise, for me the extra expense is worth the brass for reloading.
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vicious_cb
06-03-12, 23:14
Is there any huge significance to using either steel or brass. I've shot many thousands of rds....all brass but why not use steel if its cheaper?
Because steel cases do not obturate as much as brass and seal the chamber, in short steel cases makes your chamber dirtier by allowing blow by.
I agree 100% and I would choose brass over steel any day. The one sole exception seems to be the Hornady line of ammo as it has proven to be 100% thus far.
Because steel cases do not obturate as much as brass and seal the chamber, in short steel cases makes your chamber dirtier by allowing blow by.
I reload so I use brass 223/556. I've shot thousands of steel cased russian calibers, other than it being dirtier I have no complaints.
TboxCrusher
06-04-12, 08:29
I'm running the BCM BFH AEG complete upper w/ pinned BC 1.5 with a BCM lower. It shoots any type of ammo I've thrown through it, either brass 5.56 or .223 steel it ate it all. Now is why im deciding which round to buy a bulk lot of since it shoots it all. Some people where saying that lower pressure rounds were not working properly with this gas system but it shoots it all.
TboxCrusher
06-04-12, 08:31
I havent personally seen any actual evidence as to steel cases wearing out parts faster. But in theory, it makes sense. I simply do not buy steel cased ammo because Id rather have the brass for reloading. Even if you dont reload, and feel you might someday, you will thank yourself later for shooting brass and saving it. The brass is one the more expensive components of reloading. The few bucks extra you spend now on brass vs steel will save you money in the long run since you can reuse that brass several times.
Thats a good point, good thing I saved all the brass rds I did shoot!
And you can reload steel how many times? I can reload my brass 10 plus times so it makes it way cheaper then steel! :D And it always shoots better then steel ever could!:) Reloads cheaper then you can buy steel to begin with. Since you got thousands of reloadable brass now -get to reloading!:D
TboxCrusher
06-04-12, 19:48
And you can reload steel how many times? I can reload my brass 10 plus times so it makes it way cheaper then steel! :D And it always shoots better then steel ever could!:) Reloads cheaper then you can buy steel to begin with. Since you got thousands of reloadable brass now -get to reloading!:D
Well dont know much about reloading nor have any equiptment to do so, looks like ill dip into some reloading forums. :)
I agree 100% and I would choose brass over steel any day. The one sole exception seems to be the Hornady line of ammo as it has proven to be 100% thus far.
I bought quite a bit of the Hornady 55gr training ammo, never had an issue with it. That said, have you priced it lately? The fine people at Hornady are smoking crack if they think I am paying duty ammo prices for steel training ammo.
I know what you mean. The only good reliable source is Miwall and they only sell at gunshows. I bought 500 rounds of the 75gr. stuff for like 180.00. When they come back to town, I will try and snatch more of it.
I bought quite a bit of the Hornady 55gr training ammo, never had an issue with it. That said, have you priced it lately? The fine people at Hornady are smoking crack if they think I am paying duty ammo prices for steel training ammo.
HackerF15E
06-05-12, 06:49
And you can reload steel how many times?
A couple times at least.
Is there any huge significance to using either steel or brass. I've shot many thousands of rds....all brass but why not use steel if its cheaper?
If you don't reload, no reason not to use steel. As is the case with brass though, not all steel is created equal. Top of the tree is the Hornady training ammo - extremely accurate with clean burning powder (but as has been mentioned, prices seem to be going wild on it these days).
Second rung would be the ammo produced by the Barnaul plant in Russia (The "Bears" and the newer WPA branded Wolf, and also the MFS steel cased line). Also the stuff from Vympel (Golden Tiger) is usually OK. I've shot well over 15,000 rounds of Barnaul produced ammo, and aside from the odd dud primer (about 1 in 2000), I've had no trouble with it - although in some rifles you might want to drop in a lighter buffer, as it weaker than *most* brass. I've actually had more problems with XM193...outsize casings, setback rounds etc - not yet seen on a Barnaul round). On all rifles, you want to clean regularly as the powder does run dirty and as also mentioned in this thread, the steel case not expanding the same way a brass one does means for more blowback and dirtier chamber.
Bottom rung steel ammo is anything that comes out of the Tula ammo plant (Tulammo, Herters, Wolf ammo older than 2-3 years). This is even weaker than the Barnaul ammo, and to add to it, there is more more variance round to round - I've actually fired rounds of Tulammo where I could feel even weaker than normal rounds in the course of a magazine and have had resultant short strokes). I'd say avoid Tula produced ammo, period.
Other things to know about the Russian steel ammo - the bullets use a bimetal jacket (i.e. microthin copper layer over soft steel) rather than an copper jacket. Some ranges will not allow its use because they are concerned the increased sparking it gives off on impact is a fire hazard (*might* be a valid concern), or that they think it will damage their steel targets (they mistakenly think that a bimetal mild steel jacket is the same as a steel penetrator). Regardless of concern or not, if the bullet sticks to a magnet, they won't let you use it. The Hornady training ammo does not have this issue as they use a copper only jacket.
Other points to think of - accuracywise, I've not noticed the Barnaul produced ammo to be any less accurate than budget brass (the likes of PMC Bronze etc)...you are not going to win any outright accuracy contests with either. The Hornady training/steel match on the other hand can be sub MOA; it is good stuff.
One other (less common) thing to be aware of is that there are a small number of barrels out there that really take a dislike to the bimetal jacketed ammo, and regularly exhibit keyholing when using it. This is rare, but its documented enough that it does sometimes occur. If you are unlucky enough to have one of these barrels, Russian steel'd be a no with that barrel (or buy another barrel).
Also - if terminal ballistics is of concern to you, the bimetal jacketed steel stuff is documented as not fragmenting/tumbling the same as copper jacketed ammo. The bimetal jacket construction seems to hold the projectile together more.
Alaskapopo
06-05-12, 13:40
A couple times at least.
The answer is no you can't reload steel at all. Its a disposable case.
Pat
Actually steel can be reloaded. I question the utility of this exercise, but it works fine. Just make sure they are boxers.
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Alaskapopo
06-05-12, 15:00
Actually steel can be reloaded. I question the utility of this exercise, but it works fine. Just make sure they are boxers.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2
Really because the one time I accidently got a wolf case stuck on my press it jammed in the sizing die and was a real bitch to remove. Steel is not elastic like brass.
Actually steel can be reloaded. I question the utility of this exercise, but it works fine. Just make sure they are boxers.
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Yep...I know a guy who does it. To me it seems a bit like rolling your own cigarettes using tobacco from discarded butts...but it can be done. Sadly the cases with the Boxer primers are the Tula produced shite, so you'd have to suffer shooting through a case of that stuff first. Plus the necks of steel cases sometimes split after firing; the....I think the whole concept is far too much trouble to be worth it, especially as its fairly easy to find brass cases around.
Really because the one time I accidently got a wolf case stuck on my press it jammed in the sizing die and was a real bitch to remove. Steel is not elastic like brass.
People do it.
Did you get stuck due to the decapping pin getting jammed in since the Wolf case would be berdan primed and some decapping pins will jam in the case (though less likely with steel than berdan brass cases).
You need more lube obviously.
I've mostly seen people doing it with pistol cases (lubed) though I have read of people doing it with rifle cases.
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I never had a problem. I reloaded 20 cases 3 times back when I was reading a lot of Ross Siefried. They worked fine, but they were Tula Wolf and happened to be boxer primed.
Once again, I don't see the utility in this. Just that it is possible. Hell I just checked YouTube and there is a bunch of stuff on there as well.
As to the metallurgical properties of steel vs brass. Steel absolutely obturates to the shape of the chamber. We are talking 45,000 psi here with a soft steel case. It does not, however recover as brass would. Since carbines are set up for brass in this country the dwell is a little short. Therefore you experience stuck cases on occasion. The additional deposits are from crap Russian powder, not blow by.
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I never had a problem. I reloaded 20 cases 3 times back when I was reading a lot of Ross Siefried. They worked fine, but they were Tula Wolf and happened to be boxer primed.
There are even people who reload the berdan primed steel cases. You can buy berdan de-priming tools
http://www.amazon.com/RCBS-Berdan-Decapping-Tool-9525/dp/B0002INRT6
and youtube has a bunch of videos on them.
You can also buy berdan primers though they are hard to find
here is an expose on the whole issue:
http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/berdan_supplies_dimensions.html
large primers berdan : http://tulammousa.com/products/non-corrosive-berdan-primers/non-corrosive-berdan-primers/
Why anyone would bother with berdan primed stuff for reloading, except for rare or exotic cases where you don't have a choice, I don't know.
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RogerinTPA
06-05-12, 17:20
Agreed. My sentiments exactly. I've got about the same round count as you with Barnaul/Brown Bear. It's the only steel cased ammo that I've never had a problem running in 5 ARs... Zip, Zero, Nada.
To the OP, as others have stated, Hornady steel case ammo is good stuff, but with the cost of that ammo, I'll stick to Barnaul, then Wolf WPA when I run out of Barnaul. I don't care about it being dirty. Years ago, I used to take all my ARs beyond 4K rounds fired, just adding lube, on a regular basis just to dispel the myth and to prove my ARs could run reliably with it, even in carbine courses. Since I do shoot a lot, it's cost effective training fodder. The main issue that most folks don't get when shooting steel case ammo, is that they don't have their AR set up to handle a wide variety of ammo. As such, as soon as a problem arises, it's the shitty steel case ammo.
If you don't reload, no reason not to use steel. As is the case with brass though, not all steel is created equal. Top of the tree is the Hornady training ammo - extremely accurate with clean burning powder (but as has been mentioned, prices seem to be going wild on it these days).
Second rung would be the ammo produced by the Barnaul plant in Russia (The "Bears" and the newer WPA branded Wolf, and also the MFS steel cased line). Also the stuff from Vympel (Golden Tiger) is usually OK. I've shot well over 15,000 rounds of Barnaul produced ammo, and aside from the odd dud primer (about 1 in 2000), I've had no trouble with it - although in some rifles you might want to drop in a lighter buffer, as it weaker than *most* brass. I've actually had more problems with XM193...outsize casings, setback rounds etc - not yet seen on a Barnaul round). On all rifles, you want to clean regularly as the powder does run dirty and as also mentioned in this thread, the steel case not expanding the same way a brass one does means for more blowback and dirtier chamber.
Bottom rung steel ammo is anything that comes out of the Tula ammo plant (Tulammo, Herters, Wolf ammo older than 2-3 years). This is even weaker than the Barnaul ammo, and to add to it, there is more more variance round to round - I've actually fired rounds of Tulammo where I could feel even weaker than normal rounds in the course of a magazine and have had resultant short strokes). I'd say avoid Tula produced ammo, period.
Other things to know about the Russian steel ammo - the bullets use a bimetal jacket (i.e. microthin copper layer over soft steel) rather than an copper jacket. Some ranges will not allow its use because they are concerned the increased sparking it gives off on impact is a fire hazard (*might* be a valid concern), or that they think it will damage their steel targets (they mistakenly think that a bimetal mild steel jacket is the same as a steel penetrator). Regardless of concern or not, if the bullet sticks to a magnet, they won't let you use it. The Hornady training ammo does not have this issue as they use a copper only jacket.
Other points to think of - accuracywise, I've not noticed the Barnaul produced ammo to be any less accurate than budget brass (the likes of PMC Bronze etc)...you are not going to win any outright accuracy contests with either. The Hornady training/steel match on the other hand can be sub MOA; it is good stuff.
One other (less common) thing to be aware of is that there are a small number of barrels out there that really take a dislike to the bimetal jacketed ammo, and regularly exhibit keyholing when using it. This is rare, but its documented enough that it does sometimes occur. If you are unlucky enough to have one of these barrels, Russian steel'd be a no with that barrel (or buy another barrel).
Also - if terminal ballistics is of concern to you, the bimetal jacketed steel stuff is documented as not fragmenting/tumbling the same as copper jacketed ammo. The bimetal jacket construction seems to hold the projectile together more.
TboxCrusher
06-05-12, 18:08
So it seems brass is the way to go whether it be reloading or not. Thanks for all the input!
Only issue i have realized with steel is i have to use the forawd assist on the first round out of the magazine about 50% of the time. Otherwise it works just like brass. I up to about 1000rounds of wolf MC steel and 500 brass and 0 failures except reqring a few hits on the forward assist to load first round
Bcm 20"
Evil Colt 6920
06-05-12, 22:43
Theres only one thing I like about steel. I dont have to pick it up.
TboxCrusher
06-09-12, 20:14
Theres only one thing I like about steel. I dont have to pick it up.
Haha true, when I pick up my brass I feel like im picking up nickels and dimes. Thanks for all the input guys!
Exactly why even at 2AM on Table 3 evenings you're still out there.
There are limited times where steel makes more sense, and if your training rifle happens to run well with a cheaper steel case when lubed enough, go for it.
Whenever reliability has any value to me, it's brass stuff, and IMI/PPU/AE at the cheapest (i.e. taking carbine courses when on leave with limited opportunity to see which cheap ammo doesn't choke my rifle).
TboxCrusher
06-09-12, 21:09
Exactly why even at 2AM on Table 3 evenings you're still out there.
There are limited times where steel makes more sense, and if your training rifle happens to run well with a cheaper steel case when lubed enough, go for it.
Whenever reliability has any value to me, it's brass stuff, and IMI/PPU/AE at the cheapest (i.e. taking carbine courses when on leave with limited opportunity to see which cheap ammo doesn't choke my rifle).
Thought about doing a course but if I see a safety violater hes gonna be hittin the deck. which is why I shouldnt go to a course!
HackerF15E
06-09-12, 21:16
I think the whole concept is far too much trouble to be worth it
How is reloading a steel case any more trouble than reloading a brass one?
If anything, it's at least easier to pick up the discarded cases using a magnet!
Alaskapopo
06-10-12, 00:02
Thought about doing a course but if I see a safety violater hes gonna be hittin the deck. which is why I shouldnt go to a course!
You should go to a course just realize its the instructors job to teach and those there are there to learn the skills they need to be safe and proficient gun handlers. Its not your job to make people outside of your control hit the deck nor is it acceptable. Plus people don't learn that way. You will just turn them off to shooting or getting good training. The better way to handle it is to make it a teaching opportunity. By the way thanks for your service.
Pat
Thought about doing a course but if I see a safety violater hes gonna be hittin the deck. which is why I shouldnt go to a course!
I'm almost to where I've spent equal time at both types or ranges, and every blatant safety violation I've seen so far has been a chick in uniform at an MC range flagging or ND despite coaches holding their hands through the process... repeatedly.
There is much better instruction than what you've had, seek it out.
TboxCrusher
06-10-12, 11:39
You should go to a course just realize its the instructors job to teach and those there are there to learn the skills they need to be safe and proficient gun handlers. Its not your job to make people outside of your control hit the deck nor is it acceptable. Plus people don't learn that way. You will just turn them off to shooting or getting good training. The better way to handle it is to make it a teaching opportunity. By the way thanks for your service.
Pat
If you see in my sig it says RIP Cpl talley, that was do to a safety violator with a shotgun to the chest. If you lost a close friend do to this you would have a change in heart. He was 24
TboxCrusher
06-10-12, 11:42
We are also going way off topic since the begining of this thread...but again thanks for all the input. I now prefer brass due to having a cleaner shooting round
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