View Full Version : Brownings Greatest Design: Hi-Power
MilitaryArms
06-03-12, 21:30
Here in the U.S. many consider the 1911 to be the greatest handgun design by John Browning. Globally speaking, the 1911 never achieved much success in military and law enforcement circles.
The Hi-Power was Brownings last handgun design before passing away in 1926. By 1935 the Hi-Power was well on its way to becoming the most successful military/police handgun - ever. It was adopted by over 50 countries and countless police agencies. To this day is a highly cherished handgun around the world. It's a shame he didn't live to see how great his final pistol would become.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGpHY6LZPHQ
I picked this pistol up out of Shotgun News for $425. It's a European import, most likely an old police service pistol.
Questions and comments are welcome.
Great video as always. I always enjoy your uploads. One thing about the hi-power though, is that the hammer tears up the web space between my thumb and index finger
MilitaryArms
06-03-12, 22:33
A lot of people have this issue with the pistol, especially with the traditional hammer. Some find the spurred ball hammer to not bite as badly.
I would love to get another Hi-power, but not until I can afford to have some smithing done to it. They absolutely make hamburger meat of my hand. I have looked into some of Novak's custom work on the P35, maybe someday.
I've owned a 1980 production High Power since 1984. Carried it for the most part of the 80's. But I've always been to understand that the pistol was a lot more of Dieudonné Saive's finalized design than John Browning's actual influence.
How are the modern production high powers?
The Hi Power design was started by John Moses Browning, but it was Dieudonné Saive who brought to fruition after Browning's death.
The 1911 did not do well globally, but it is still one of the most, if not the most, influential pistol designs in all of history. The 1911 is easily the most recognizable pistol around the world. This does not take away from the importance of the Hi Power, which arguably has had as much influence as the 1911 on other designs. I would say there is not a single successful selfloading pistol that does not owe their origins to either the 1911 or the High Power, or both.
If I had to pick which had more influence, the 1911 or the Hi Power, based on impact on other handgun designs, the firearms industry in general, it's ruggedness and iconic impact, the 1911 easily tops the list
Gary1911A1
06-04-12, 08:01
I would love to get another Hi-power, but not until I can afford to have some smithing done to it. They absolutely make hamburger meat of my hand. I have looked into some of Novak's custom work on the P35, maybe someday.
I assume you are referring to the rather short tang under the hammer that bites me too. I really like my Hi-Power, and often have wonder why a grip maker like Hogue didn't make a replacement grips that also had an attached beaver tail type grip safety if you know what I mean.:confused:
The HP was my 1st pistol. I bought it with my 1st paycheck out of boot camp. It served me well for many years, but the accuracy was never great and I got the hammer bite frequently. I'd love to have another one someday, but I'd have to have one with the Novak beavertail and a Bar-Sto barrel.
John Holbrook
06-04-12, 13:32
Here is my current stable of HPs. Top is a MK III, middle is an Israeli police with nite sights, and bottom is a MK II....
http://www.fototime.com/%7B4ED39D39-D4BC-41E2-BD65-37A3FC12829B%7D/origpict/HP%2520Trio%25201.JPG
And a MK III with nite sights..
http://www.fototime.com/%7B789DC44A-9004-434E-B728-2D347814D912%7D/origpict/DSC00107.JPG
John Holbrook
06-04-12, 13:39
An Austrian police HP...
http://www.fototime.com/%7B3BCCD7D9-5DE6-4EC1-B2DE-8D6EF09DF5DE%7D/origpict/HP%252060%2520Pair.jpg
legumeofterror
06-04-12, 13:42
Dieudonné Saive deserves more of the credit for the design, IMO. The pistol was completely different when Browning was alive, and Dieudonné designed the magazine, which is what was ground breaking about the Hi-Power.
brickboy240
06-04-12, 15:16
I have an Israeli contract FN Hi-Power that I re-built with Cylinder & Slide internals and gave it a flat black teflon finish and cocobolo Herrett grips.
One of my favorite pistols to shoot....very accurate.
- brickboy240
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/HiPowerComments.html (RIP Stephen A. Camp) covers the hammer-bite issue in detail. It's not as hard to address as you'd think.
Okie John
brickboy240
06-04-12, 17:38
In 8 years of shooting the Hi-Power....I have never been bitten by it's hammer.
I've messed with come Cylinder & Slide Hi-Powers and I like them a lot. I definitely get one from them in the future.
kaltesherz
06-15-12, 03:24
Nice video!
You mentioned that surplus mags are easy to find, where's the best place to find them?
The Hi Power design was started by John Moses Browning, but it was Dieudonné Saive who brought to fruition after Browning's death.
(snip)
If I had to pick which had more influence, the 1911 or the Hi Power, based on impact on other handgun designs, the firearms industry in general, it's ruggedness and iconic impact, the 1911 easily tops the list
Not many pistols use the 1911's barrel drop link system. Most copied the locked breech system of the BHP.
The stacked magazine was also another feature that most copied.
Like the 1911, a worked over BHP is a thing of beauty.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/223898_3882177648643_1026629820_n.jpg
-Tom
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/HiPowerComments.html (RIP Stephen A. Camp) covers the hammer-bite issue in detail. It's not as hard to address as you'd think.
Okie John
My hands are moderately fat. A little polishing of the REAR of the hammer tang eliminated bite from the hammer for me. Hammer bite is NOT about pinching, but he high speed hitting of the rear of the hammer on the skin - when smoothed a little, it is greatly reduced if not eliminated, and without removing mass.
BUT... I do get some irritation from the rear of the reciever tang - which is a bit sharp.
odiesplace
06-15-12, 08:01
Here is mine, traded my M&P 9 for it. Always wanted one
12520
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/HiPowerComments.html (RIP Stephen A. Camp) covers the hammer-bite issue in detail. It's not as hard to address as you'd think.
Okie John
Unfortunately I fall into category 2, especially with the thumbs forward grip I run. I still want a Novak prepped Hi-Power with a Bar-Sto barrel.
Not many pistols use the 1911's barrel drop link system. Most copied the locked breech system of the BHP.
The stacked magazine was also another feature that most copied.
Like the 1911, a worked over BHP is a thing of beauty.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/223898_3882177648643_1026629820_n.jpg
-Tom
Who did that one? The stippling and thumb safety look superb!
brickboy240
06-15-12, 11:53
Those grips look like mine.
Everyone that I let shoot my HP says, "wow....why isn't this pistol more popular?"
It is not popular HERE but many other countries have used the Hi-Power for a very long time.
It is hard to argue the ergonomics of the pistol....for sure.
- brickboy240
The High Power is a great gun. One of the knocks against it has been the trigger pull. Because of the magazine safety, it can be gritty and have a harder pull. One way to dramatically improve on the trigger pull is to remove the magazine safety, which most pistols don't have anyway.
In the original hi-power the trigger pull was generally bad, and the safety was almost useless because it was so small. The 1911A1 was far more usable IMO.
Who did that one? The stippling and thumb safety look superb!
Jim Garthwaite.
http://www.gunblast.com/LT-GarthwaiteHP.htm
-Tom
Clyde from Carolina
06-20-12, 17:44
Great video, thanks for posting it. Always one of my favorite guns.
azeriosu85
06-24-12, 00:26
given ALL of the choices, the prince himself solely carries it
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Harry_022908.jpg
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articlePictures/princeHarryaFGHANISTAN.jpg
The flag on his ball cap is interesting.
azeriosu85
06-24-12, 14:00
The flag on his ball cap is interesting.
apparently the story is the hat was given to him by some US special forces that were working with his unit
jbourneidentity
06-24-12, 16:53
I do not wish to blaspheme, but I've owned several nice 1911s and several BHPs and have many years' experience carrying and shooting them.
Speaking from personal experience only, when these two pistols are pulled from the box, cleaned, checked, lubed correctly and fired...the Hi Power has ALWAYS been, by far, the most reliable of the two. In fact, I can remember no problems with any Hi Power I've ever owned. For me, there has simply been no comparison with regard to reliability.
The 1911 was completely superior in terms of trigger and manual safety manipulation.
The 1911 would occasionally bite me on the hand if a beavertail grip were not installed. By contrast, the BHP ALWAYS bit me because of my high-hand grip.
When I win the lottery, a custom BHP (Garthwaite, Sokol) will be on my bucket list.
Wolf Spyder
06-24-12, 17:44
I like my Browning HP, once I removed that dam magazine disconect safety...
The flag on his ball cap is interesting.
The back of the cap is what I like about it. It's embroidered "We do bad things to bad people" The Prince caught a bit of flack for wearing that cap when he returned from his deployment. A lot of peace minded British felt it was too much of a warmonger statement. And gave the wrong impression of what Britain really stood for. Go figure. Just in case you're interested.
http://www.tacticaltailor.com/apparel/tt/tactical-tailor-bad-things-hat
HardToHandle
06-24-12, 22:29
I love the HP (GP) because is was the smallest wonder-nine grips with a doublestack matched to the orginal recoil-soaking steel frame.
I can't understand why they figured this out in 1935 and nealy 80 years later, they lesson hasn't soaked in.
If someone needs a steel frame to "soak" the 9 mm recoil, then what can I say...
I find the High Power worshipping as amusing as the 1911 cult :)
If someone needs a steel frame to "soak" the 9 mm recoil, then what can I say...
I find the High Power worshipping as amusing as the 1911 cult :)
How very macho, if unenlightened of you. Would you argue that the lack of recoil plays no part in the practical accuracy of the .22LR? If not, then how can you argue the idea that recoil mitigation in a defensive caliber, any defensive caliber, is irrelevant? :confused:
"unenlightened" blah, blah,.... :rolleyes:
If anybody can learn to shoot accurate 0.25 seg or less splits with aluminum or (gasp!) polymer framed pistols, how much more do you really need?
"unenlightened" blah, blah,.... :rolleyes:
If anybody can learn to shoot accurate 0.25 seg or less splits with aluminum or (gasp!) polymer framed pistols, how much more do you really need?
My splits at 7 yards run .18-.20 on average with a 9mm. With a .22LR they run about .14-.15 with tighter groups. So, if you could mitigate the recoil more effectively, you could conceivably get better accuracy, with faster splits at longer distances. Is that worth pursuing? To a point, I'd say yes. Can you definitively state that a few hundredths of a second would never be the difference between life and death?
Now factor in a poor to average shooter. They will arguably gain a greater benefit from this exercise. Recoil and blast work against a shooter's ability to execute perfect form and follow through. By reducing either or both, you increase the likelihood of mastering the gun. There's a reason most professional defensive pistol instructors don't recommend heavy recoiling calibers for new shooters.
Of course those types of people are all pussies and shouldn't even carry a gun, right? :rolleyes:
I ran about the same splits, and in my humble opinion a 0.05 second difference means pretty much zilch in real life given all the other factors involved. Now, your example is 22 LR vs 9 mm, QUITE different than a steel vs polymer 9 mm.
I used to shoot CZ 75 (heavier than a high power) and jericho (still heavier and with the balance forward) vs a G17 and the difference was smaller.
I would think trigger action would have more of an impact than the weight of the handgun. I've owned a couple of Hi Powers but I could run a Glock or similar design faster. The Hi Powers never had as postive reset as the Glocks.
That said, I see the Hi Power as more of as operational classic than a cutting edge handgun. I've seen custom Hi Power gunsmiths recommend against using +P ammo in them, that does not fit my needs for a go to defensive handgun. The Hi Power still remains a classic in my eyes, just not as a primary weapon.
rotorblade
06-25-12, 19:11
This thread is making me want a Hi Power again.
Is there anybody out there that makes a from the ground up custom Hi Power Like Wilson or some of the others.
I've seen custom Hi Power gunsmiths recommend against using +P ammo in them, that does fit my needs for a go to defensive handgun. The Hi Power still remains a classic in my eyes, just not as a primary weapon.
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/BHPandHighPressureAmmo.htm
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/BHPandHighPressureAmmo.htm
I would certainly want to "tune" a Hi Power for high pressure loads too, if I were to use +P ammo in one. Any way here is a link to one of the articles I was refering to.
http://www.cylinder-slide.com/bhptoday.shtml
It is under the section titled "Shortcomings one must live with"
The Hi Power was designed in the '20s prior to NATO and +P ammo. A shooter/owner will have to make up his own mind as to how to approach this issue.
Just wanted to add that I'm not knocking the Hi Power in any way, they are one of my all time favorites. I would recommend anyone considering them to educate themselves as much as possible, as with any weapon under consideration. Hopefuly the links you and I provided will help people with that education.
This thread is making me want a Hi Power again.
Is there anybody out there that makes a from the ground up custom Hi Power Like Wilson or some of the others.
http://www.morriscustompistols.com/browning%20hipower.htm
http://www.novaksights.com/customguns/BHP/index.html
http://www.robarguns.com/browning.htm
http://www.garthwaite.com/services/browning-custom-work.php
http://coalcreekarmory.com/custom_fnhipower.html
I'm sure there are more options available but here is a short list to explore. I'd love to get another Hi Power and have one of these guys work their magic on it.
the Pre MK3's were not suitable for +P ammo, then when they introduced the 40 they went to a cast frame on all HP's which is stronger and they raised the ejection port , thus beefing up the one area that was prone to cracking with extensive use.
HP's made since\early 90's and on, are OK with +p ammo.
Not sure just look at the bottom of the frame... if area around magwell has striations/ grooves it is a forged frame. SORRY I MEANT IT"S CAST IF IT HAS GROOVES (senior moment).
And when it comes to HP smiths don't foget Don Williams of Action Gunworks fame or Jim Hoag who does wonders with HiPower.
the Pre MK3's were not suitable for +P ammo, then when they introduced the 40 they went to a cast frame on all HP's which is stronger and they raised the ejection port , thus beefing up the one area that was prone to cracking with extensive use.
HP's made since\early 90's and on, are OK with +p ammo.
Not sure just look at the bottom of the frame... if area around magwell has striations/ grooves it is a forged frame.
And when it comes to HP smiths don't foget Don Williams of Action Gunworks fame or Jim Hoag who does wonders with HiPower.
Just a couple of points, I belive the versions with groves around the mag well indicate a cast, not forged framed. I think one or maybe both the links provided by Brian and myself cover this. When I get time I will review myself to make sure but I belive that is the situation.
Also, just FYI, the .40 Hi Powers are made with thicker/wider/heavier slides to help with the .40 caliber round. You can identify this on a .40 slide in that the slide is milled around the slide release lever for clearance. I've also read that some gunsmiths are converting the .40s back to 9mm. I haven't delved into this aspect but I would assume it is for the added strength of the thicker slide (and yes I know assume can lead to:fie:).
Not trying to be conflictive at all, just wanted to clarify and add some more information. If I'm wrong in any way or you have other information please link to it. Being the Hi Power is one of my favorites I welcome all the education I can find on it.
sorry had senior moment have since corrected
Grooves= cast / stronger frame.
Thank you for correcting my error.
Having both a 1911 and a BHP since 1972 I can say I like the 1911 way better. That being said either would make me feel well armed so to say. No I would not sell the BHP and the non +p 9mm loads work just fine.
"We do bad things to bad people" The Prince caught a bit of flack for wearing that cap when he returned from his deployment. A lot of peace minded British felt it was too much of a warmonger statement. And gave the wrong impression of what Britain really stood for. Go figure. Just in case you're interested.
I don't understand the mentality of people who think you can send people to war and disapprove of the fact they've sent warriors.
Alaskapopo
07-21-12, 05:19
Here in the U.S. many consider the 1911 to be the greatest handgun design by John Browning. Globally speaking, the 1911 never achieved much success in military and law enforcement circles.
The Hi-Power was Brownings last handgun design before passing away in 1926. By 1935 the Hi-Power was well on its way to becoming the most successful military/police handgun - ever. It was adopted by over 50 countries and countless police agencies. To this day is a highly cherished handgun around the world. It's a shame he didn't live to see how great his final pistol would become.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGpHY6LZPHQ
I picked this pistol up out of Shotgun News for $425. It's a European import, most likely an old police service pistol.
Questions and comments are welcome.
I have owned 3 Highpowers and frankly its a step back from the 1911 in every way except magazine capacity. The trigger sucks, the frame is not as durable. They are ok plinkers but not my first choice in a carry gun.
pat
While I think that they are overpriced as sold new, the HP is a VERY good carry weapon. For a steel framed auto, it is fairly light. Newer ones feed all types or ammo reliably. They are accurate, and if you take the dumb mag safety out, the trigger is very useable - although I'll admit not the potential of a 1911. They are a very good size to carry, albeit somewhat long in the barrel, and a bit easier than a 1911.
I do find the grip safety in a 1911 problematic.
And... contrary to some detractors QUITE durable.
It is time for the BHP to rise again or at least bring the thread back to the first page :D
http://www.danpassaro.com/img/s8/v0/p16724657-4.jpg
Now with the more comfortable copocabana grips :D
http://www.danpassaro.com/img/s11/v31/p624006756-4.jpg
kaltesherz
06-01-13, 09:32
Word.
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/kaltesherz/026-5.jpg (http://s165.photobucket.com/user/kaltesherz/media/026-5.jpg.html)
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/kaltesherz/028-3.jpg (http://s165.photobucket.com/user/kaltesherz/media/028-3.jpg.html)
I need to try a HP out. Never really cared for 1911s, and a few look cool (the milled out ones, the the Nightfighter or AAC), but the HP is just an attractive pistol. It's like the FN FAL of handguns.
varoadking
06-01-13, 16:47
I had two of them...
Both were so amazingly accurate that they bored me...so I sold them both.
I had an aluminum framed MkII upgraded by Don Williams.
Before:
http://imageshack.us/a/img204/5140/85alloyhipower.jpg
After:
http://imageshack.us/a/img32/2827/alloyhipowerrightview.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img560/5376/alloyhipowerleftview.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img525/6634/alloyhipowerleftviewdis.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img708/2931/alloyhipowersights.jpg
It's hard chromed with Novak sights and a custom thumb safety. Weight is on par with a Glock 19. Of all my Hi Powers, this is easily my favorite.
given ALL of the choices, the prince himself solely carries it
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Harry_022908.jpg
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articlePictures/princeHarryaFGHANISTAN.jpg
The BHP is an issued arm. If he was in the US army the arm would be a Beretta 92 type.
I've got one from Coles Distributing that is going to get sent to Don Williams for a full work over. Out of all the pistols I've ever handled, the BHP by far points the most naturally in my hand.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
As far as the strength of the older Hi-Powers, I remember Massad Ayoob writing they weren't as strong as 1911's. He was teaching in Central and South America in the '80's. It was common at the time to use Geco BAT ammo. I can't remember if there was +P 9mm at the time.
kaltesherz
06-01-13, 22:05
As far as the strength of the older Hi-Powers, I remember Massad Ayoob writing they weren't as strong as 1911's. He was teaching in Central and South America in the '80's. It was common at the time to use Geco BAT ammo. I can't remember if there was +P 9mm at the time.
That was true because the older HP's were forged frames and they were using +P and +P+ subgun and NATO spec 9mm. Most Mk III'S have much stronger forged frames and can handle high volumes of high pressure loads.
My only issue with HP's is they require some work out of the box, mainly the triggers / mag disconnect and sights. Also their baseplates on magazines are kinda sharp so I can't carry a spare for CCW. I love my Don Williams Izzy Mk III, but I CCW my Glock 19 more often because I can carry a spare mag without cutting out a kidney.
Still, it's crazy easy to shoot well, carry's extremely well, is soft shooting (steel frame + 9mm), and points well. I really need to get that mag baseplate thing figured out so it can be my primary CCW.
stitch1870
06-02-13, 04:17
The BHP is an issued arm. If he was in the US army the arm would be a Beretta 92 type.
IIRC he was there in late '10-'11, the RAF/RA Brits we worked with carried Sigs, maybe the pilots get preferential choice, but I don't think HP is widely issued.
They were phasing them out at that point. Sigs were one of the transitional contracts. I believe Glock secured the contract to replace the HP.
One of the most beautiful firearms in my opinion. However I never felt comfortable carrying it cocked and locked.
I carried a C&L 1978 Hi Power daily for over 12 years back when I managed several large gunstores. The only mod was to have King's Gun Works polish the feed ramp so it would feed JHPs. Used Remington 115 JHP standard pressure ammo as that was what the local PD used at the time---then if I had to go to court, I could say I'm just using the same ammo as the cops.
I have large but not "meaty" hands---NEVER bit me---can't recall a jam either---shot right to point of aim.
Currently have three P35s---the above mentioned 1978 fixed-sight polished blue---a mint 69C with ring hammer and orig pouch---a couple of years back, I picked up a slightly used MK111 matte finish FN marked pistol with the factory install SFS system---probably my personal favorite is the MK111...
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