Battery Tech hindering Tech progress?

[SMETNA]

It seems like battery technology is lagging way behind. Smart phones are designed to be ultra thin and ultra light in order to make room for a big heavy slab of Li-ion battery, which will struggle to get you until the end of the day with moderate browsing, music, streaming and talking.

Most of the new plug-in hybrids and EVs can only go 40-100 miles on a charge, and their performance and handling is pathetic (besides the Fisker and the Tesla) because of the heavy trunk-load of Li-ion cells.

So to me, battery tech is holding back several industries from a much higher level of usability. If somebody was sitting on a pile of money and was at a loss for investment ideas, I'd say dump it into developing a smaller lighter power cell with similar or better output to the current crop.

Bang. 300-400 mile per charge EVs. 7-10 day per charge mobile devices with moderate Internet/talk usage.

Eta: not to mention military applications. A land warrior soldier system with a high def display, gps, helmet cam, etc. that could run for a week+ with constant usage.

[TehLlama]

Start reading up on why power density in highly reusable batteries is limited (I've done laboratory work in the field off and on since I was 13), it comes down to surface chemistry limitations, metallurgy for electrodes under load, and primarily for larger applications thermal efficiency among others such as weight and cost, but when you look at it the advances in the last decade (from nickel cadmium being a prominent rechargeable battery chemisty, to nickel metal hydride, up to the current lithium ion and lithium polymer being affordable) the miniaturization of every device was enabled by advances in the battery technology, so I'd argue that it's not battery tech hindering progress elsewhere, but that it's the next step after fundamental material science to making viable electronics.
There are physical limitations to how much power (watt hours) and power density (watt/Litre, watt/kg) you can chemically derive, and it's actually pretty impressive how much energy we can store in any sort of reversible reaction electrolytic cell when you look at the raw thermodynamics.

The same way human progress is delineated by 'ages' defined by the principal material science advancement of the time (Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron Age, Steel Age), we're approaching the carbon age, and whether it's use of MWCNT's in the storage of hydrogen from water electrolysis as a vehicle energy storage system, or integration of various nanotube based substrates to build more efficient electrodes [what I've principally worked with myself] there will be inexorable progress, but much like the expansion of processing power along the lines of Moore's Law, the restrictions of physics are requiring ever more creative solutions to keep progress going at all.

And FWIW, I can't for the life of me figure out why nobody has taken a basic Lotus, installed just enough batteries balanced around the front to run two small 40HP motors on the front wheels, and write some simple two-mode code where it operates as a short duration plug in hybrid, and another where it behaves like an on-demand KERS system. FFS, a car like that would be awesome, affordable, and have the ability to leave like a dragster.

[Mauser KAR98K]

I think that we need to look in to hydrogen power instead of battey storage and life. Yes, a phone working longer than a day under moderate use would be fantastic, but for cars, trucks and large ships, hydrogen power needs to be the next step.

[kwelz]

Yep, this came up a couple years ago in tech circles. Battery and energy cell technology is the biggest thing holding back almost every major tech industry right now from computers to cars.

Lithium Ion and Lithium Polymer batteries were a nice little jump forward but nowhere near what we need. We need a big step forward soon or we are going to stagnate on a lot of fronts.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Kinetic energy storage in fly wheels.

[NWPilgrim]

Being in the electronics industry I would say there are two different animals:
- Power for motors such as vehicles
- Power for electronics

The advances in batteries can serve both purposes, however electronics can keep getting more efficient, whereas motors likely are not going to get much more efficient.

Chip makers are still driving to smaller transistors, denser chips, requiring less power, and producing less heat. This is simply incredible that we are able to continue to drive gate size below 32 nm, 22 nm, and I believe work is on for 16 nm and 9nm based chips. This can work in tandem with improved batteries to dramatically improve charge life and smaller sizes.

But with motors I think batteries are not the most effective way to store energy. Battery improvements will give only incremental improvements to weight, longevity, charge life. Maybe as a backup or alternative batteries are OK, but the primary energy source needs to be something quickly replaced (consumable) and high energy density released quickly such as gas, diesel, hydrogen, etc.

[Waylander]

I think that we need to look in to hydrogen power instead of battey storage and life. Yes, a phone working longer than a day under moderate use would be fantastic, but for cars, trucks and large ships, hydrogen power needs to be the next step.

Bingo. We need the capability to use energy (assuming it is a fairly clean process) in the way that maximizes efficiency. Why do we burn natural gas at power stations to produce electricity to charge our car batteries when that is much more inefficient than burning the natural gas in a converted internal combustion engine? Whatever happened to hydrogen powered fuel cells? There are few emissions and we have a vast untapped supply of it.

[An Undocumented Worker]

I am of the belief that the slow pace of battery evolution is actually promoting the development of better and more efficient technology in electronic devices.

[GTifosi]

I can't for the life of me figure out why nobody has taken a basic Lotus, installed just enough batteries balanced around the front to run two small 40HP motors on the front wheels, and write some simple two-mode code where it operates as a short duration plug in hybrid, and another where it behaves like an on-demand KERS system.
Duh!
Lucas electrics, the bringer of darkness and creator of the English love for warm beer as standard equiptment in many, many British vehicles.

Batteries and large ships specifically:

While likely not suited to100% powerplant usage, there's two charge supply sources out on the open seas that, while not constants, are certainly more readily available over a greater range/area/timeframe than a landlocked mechanism, utilizing the same systems.
Wind and solar.

Certainly as at least a supplimentary propulsion rigs they would be of benifit.
EG: run on solar and conventional system combination during day while wind turbines charges up packs, then use stored wind energy and conventional drive at night supplimented by more winds energy collected if air is moving.

Day or night there could even be smaller yet supplimental power assist to those systems provided by what would amount to be waterwheels on the flanks and/or keel of the ship.
Comparatively smaller scale so as to not create more drag than energy output.

Certainly there would be limitations of scale relivant to actual cargo capacity and weight/volume of devices vs diminishing returns, but even if it cost 15% in cargo space but saved over 15% *fuel it would be a radical improvement over what currently is in use for non~military non~nuclear powered large scale seagoing vessels.

Granted a long string of windless cloudy days and windless nights would certainly put a damper on things, but those are sort of few and far between out on the ocean from what I gather.

The 'waterwheel' suplimentary system, if equipped, would still generate as long as the ship had motion though, so not a total loss.

Obviously a balance would have to be calculated between power sources, energy supply quantity and types along with thier storage requirements against cargo capacity, but they have guys that go to college for that sort of thing.

* currently cargo capacity to fuel volume is not a 1:1 ratio

[kwelz]

I am of the belief that the slow pace of battery evolution is actually promoting the development of better and more efficient technology in electronic devices.

There is a lot to be said for this. But battery tech still need to catch up.

[SMETNA]

Thanks fellas, for filling in the details. Being that I'm not a micro-electrical engineer or a chemist, my layman's observation about batteries needed some substance.

[CarlosDJackal]

I think that we need to look in to hydrogen power instead of battey storage and life. Yes, a phone working longer than a day under moderate use would be fantastic, but for cars, trucks and large ships, hydrogen power needs to be the next step.

The problem it it normally takes more energy to make Hydrogen than it gives us. When I was younger (and dumber) I created a Hydrolysis system that pulled apart water into Hydrogen and Oxygen and had these fed directly into the carburetor of my Slant Six.

I got absolutely no boost in power because I could not pump enough electrical energy into the system to separate the atoms fast enough. So until someone comes up with an energy efficient means of creating Hydrogen fuel AND a safe way to transport and store it; I personally would not to drive around these non-driving morons while carrying Hydrogen fuel. JM2CW.

[chadbag]

My neighbor has a nano-technology (nano particles) lab and company. He was telling me of the advances they have made in fuel cells (in the lab) using nano particles to enhance reactions etc (he was obviously vague in his descriptions since this is all "top-secret" IP his company has been working on) and I also am a SW guy, not a physicist or chem-Engineer.

But, while the efficiency the system was still a low number on an absolute scale, it was much higher than what is current state of the art and could make hydrogen based systems practical in vehicles, for example, using hydrogen-as-you-need it conversion instead of storage. It has a been about 2 years since he last told me about that specifically. I'll have to ask. He told me just a month ago he was going to be testing a fuel cell for his house using what sounded like a similar system.

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[Waylander]

My neighbor has a nano-technology (nano particles) lab and company. He was telling me of the advances they have made in fuel cells (in the lab) using nano particles to enhance reactions etc (he was obviously vague in his descriptions since this is all "top-secret" IP his company has been working on) and I also am a SW guy, not a physicist or chem-Engineer.

But, while the efficiency the system was still a low number on an absolute scale, it was much higher than what is current state of the art and could make hydrogen based systems practical in vehicles, for example, using hydrogen-as-you-need it conversion instead of storage. It has a been about 2 years since he last told me about that specifically. I'll have to ask. He told me just a month ago he was going to be testing a fuel cell for his house using what sounded like a similar system.

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The most promising aspect of this is apparently there's technology that strips the hydrogen (H2) molecules from a natural gas filled tank to power the fuel cell rather than having to fill a tank with pure H2. I think the barriers it faces are governments that don't want to rely on "evil" hydrocarbons and their refiners and suppliers even though natural gas produces far fewer emissions and is plentiful.

The hundreds of pounds of batteries EVs are required to carry around are highly impractical unless and until the nanotechnology catches up. That will always be a slow process and relatively unaffordable anyway. Let's say tomorrow a scientist discovered a way to half the size of current lithium ion batteries. A company may buy the rights, begin very limited production, and charge astronomical prices that only the wealthy can afford. It would follow the supply and demand curves. The company knows the technology is in high demand so they can afford to jack the prices up. Similar to how hybrids have only become affordable to the average person in the last 5 years or so. It's a painstakingly slow process.

[wake.joe]

Humor my question-

Is there a point where the glass can only hold so much water? Will battery storage reach a peak? Has it already?

[An Undocumented Worker]

Humor my question-

Is there a point where the glass can only hold so much water? Will battery storage reach a peak? Has it already?

I'm not sure, but it has already reached a point where batteries have enough energy density to pose an actual safety hazard if misused.

Take Li Ion batteries, if you short the terminals they will heat up very quickly and catch fire.

[Waylander]

I'm not sure, but it has already reached a point where batteries have enough energy density to pose an actual safety hazard if misused.

Take Li Ion batteries, if you short the terminals they will heat up very quickly and catch fire.

Good point. The energy is there it just has to satisfy too many requirements at once. Safe, affordable, lightweight energy. A nuclear reactor under the hood would be ideal except it doesn't even begin to satisfy any of those requirements.

[TehLlama]

Humor my question-

Is there a point where the glass can only hold so much water? Will battery storage reach a peak? Has it already?

There is a thermodynamic limitation to electrolytic cells. We aren't there, but getting ever closer will be expensive. Irreversible reactions can obviously provide you more energy density, but the restriction then becomes how densely you store the fuel itself in a fuel cell. Hydrogen is terrible in that regard even if stored at high pressure, let alone the more cost efficient ways to do this (all of which still revolve around extensive use of solar and nuclear sources of power to be anywhere near as economical as fossil fuels and hydroelectric where relevant). All of the very high energy density solutions are inherently dangerous, usually through thermal decomposition of some sort (Li-Ion batteries igniting, up through how diesel burns so relentlessly).

There is a good bit of promise on stuff like methanol/ethanol reformers, or using LPG/CNG and generating hydrogen as an intermediary to run a classic Pt/Ru catalyzed hydrogen oxygen fuel cell, but all you're doing is more efficiently converting those source fuels, and realistically unless you're in the tropics it's not much more efficient to grow and refine methanol/ethanol from grains.

Chad - I'm pretty confident I know which general technology those guys are working with - very impressive for storage in that limited area, but still on the limited application side because the power density you're competing against in fossil fuels is just so amazing.

[skyugo]

energy has been a limiting factor in human technology basically forever. It's a difficult problem.

the biological adaptation of high efficiency and conservation may be the way to go in the end.

or fusion. hell yeah.