View Full Version : When did Bushmaster become... Well, Bushmaster?
I just saw a for sale ad on armslist that got me thinking. The seller claimed that the rifle was made of "quality" parts and was a great gun because it was an older gun.
Of course, Bushmaster isn't well known for making quality. I have heard from people that years and years ago, Bushmaster was the cats meow. I'm sure it's been a number of years, but what is considered the "cut off" from one of the old Bushmasters that was well respected, and the new Bushmasters that are basically crap?
BM quality(Or lack thereof) has been pretty consistent. The context is what is important. There was a time when there were only a few manufacturers.
Colt, Bushmaster, Armalite, Oly and Hesse.
At te time Colt was being difficult towards the civilian market. Hesse has always been a waste of good metal, and of the others BM was probably the best.
So at he time BM was considered good for what was available. We have more options now. Companies that make real quality. And of course Colt is now Civi friendly.
I just saw a for sale ad on armslist that got me thinking. The seller claimed that the rifle was made of "quality" parts and was a great gun because it was an older gun.
Of course, Bushmaster isn't well known for making quality. I have heard from people that years and years ago, Bushmaster was the cats meow. I'm sure it's been a number of years, but what is considered the "cut off" from one of the old Bushmasters that was well respected, and the new Bushmasters that are basically crap?
bushmaster used to be considered good because companies like bcm wasn't around to show people what real quality was.
Companies that stepped it up and people got educated is what happened.
I just saw a for sale ad on armslist that got me thinking. The seller claimed that the rifle was made of "quality" parts and was a great gun because it was an older gun.
Bushmaster also once did business as "Quality Parts Corporation". Perhaps this is where the reference to being an older rifle came from?
Bushmaster also once did business as "Quality Parts Corporation". Perhaps this is where the reference to being an older rifle came from?
The guy also made a pre-Remington reference, so I doubt it was that.
And I hadn't taken into consideration the lack of choices, good looking out there fellas. It's kind of dumb to see companies who used to have decent reputations pumping out crap. Years ago people I know had good experiences with RRA, and DPMS. The carriers are even staked!!!! Now? Bleh.
I think in 93-94 was when i got the "Quality parts "catalog and Bushmaster was made from Quality parts Now there is No mention of that part of the company :confused:
I don't know that they were ever all that good (we just didn't know). The consumer is now 10X more educated on what it takes to build a quality gun than what we knew back just 5 years ago.
C4
The consumer is now 10X more educated on what it takes to build a quality gun than what we knew back just 5 years ago.
Some consumers...
Some consumers...
You are right. A better way to state it is that the information is more accessible now than it was back then.
C4
Ugh I know some people that still think BM is of high quality simply because they have "heard of them before" lol.
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brickboy240
06-04-12, 17:35
I'd just avoid them...much like I avoid Dodge and Ford pickups.
Seen enough of others struggling with them to know I don't want one.
Sorry...but that is experience enough! LOL
- brickboy240
Strider5.56
06-04-12, 23:53
I was told at a gun store over the weekend that The "old Bushmaster" is now Windham USA. Not sure if this is true. I looked at one that wasn't bad as far as tolerances are concerned. Still not like my Noveske, but not bad for around $800.00 out the door compared to similar price points. Anybody have some better info? Thanks.
CompressionIgnition
06-05-12, 00:21
I was told at a gun store over the weekend that The "old Bushmaster" is now Windham USA. Not sure if this is true. I looked at one that wasn't bad as far as tolerances are concerned. Still not like my Noveske, but not bad for around $800.00 out the door compared to similar price points. Anybody have some better info? Thanks.
This is correct. The BM factory was shut down and the production moved. The original founder of BM then reopened that factory under a new company name. There have been discussions on here about the resurrected BM factory (Wyndham).
Out of curiousity what does this mean? "wasn't bad as tolerances are concerned".
Did you bring calipers of something to measure it? Are you talking about the "fit and finish" which really means nothing.
The differences between them are not things that are readily seen by the eye. It's about the specs.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1320913#post1320913
I was told at a gun store over the weekend that The "old Bushmaster" is now Windham USA. Not sure if this is true. I looked at one that wasn't bad as far as tolerances are concerned. Still not like my Noveske, but not bad for around $800.00 out the door compared to similar price points. Anybody have some better info? Thanks.
During the ban era, I owned 3 ARs - two of which were a new Colt Match Target HBAR and a new BM Mod Carbine. I must've put over 5,000 -7,000 rounds through that BM without issue. I abused the living crap out of that thing and "babied" my Colt. Multiple bump fires every time I was out, as that was cool back then, LOL. Not to mention nobody seemed to know how or what I was doing. Mag dumps galore. And still a 1.25 MOA rifle with a heavy CL barrel.
Anyway, that thing took everything I threw at it. Never replaced a single part on it, no maintenance of any sort, other than thorough cleaning. Wolf ammo, brass ammo, anything and everything.
Just sayin'. They DON'T make the BMs like they used to. That thing was as reliable (at least up to 7K rounds) as all of my high dollar rifles now.
RogerinTPA
06-05-12, 08:06
This is correct. The BM factory was shut down and the production moved. The original founder of BM then reopened that factory under a new company name. There have been discussions on here about the resurrected BM factory (Wyndham).
As well as import BM's business practice and shitty QC. They should have fired everyone at the top to kill BMs corporate cost cutting, 'as good as" culture. Same whore, different dress.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
06-05-12, 10:29
Back in the "day", Colt wasnt putting out the best civilian rifles and didnt have great civilian support. BM, RRA, OLY, and DPMS were what people saw, read about, and bought. They didnt have "charts", they didnt have resources like M4C. Most of the time, that BM worked like a charm, and will work like a charm today, but some of us prefer not to take that risk.
I had a Sgt with 1st ANGLICO awhile back, one of our FO's. Good dude, and a total gun nut. He was an NRA CCW instructor, rifle coach, and helped alot of bring our combat marksmanship up to where it should be. He owns a 16" Noveske, and a 16" DPMS, and swears he overpaid for the Noveske because his DPMS is "just as nice". He knows his stuff when it comes to tactics, but he is a little ignorant on this topic. Still, he shoots more than I do and his DPMS, according to him, never failed him. My LMT...not so much. We all get wrapped up into this so much, thinking that a BM or RRA is garunteed to self destruct, but the reality is that they will probably work well. How much stake do you want to put into "probably", thats the question.
Doc Safari
06-05-12, 10:38
Back in the "day", Colt wasnt putting out the best civilian rifles and didnt have great civilian support. BM, RRA, OLY, and DPMS were what people saw, read about, and bought. They didnt have "charts", they didnt have resources like M4C.
My experience in a nutshell.
Back in the day the only reason I bought a couple of Bushmasters was because of the looming, then ultimately enacted, 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, and because of their hype that they wanted you to think they might actually be better than Colt, or mil-spec, or whatever. HA! That's a laugh. The rare Colts I owned were safe queens, so all I shot were the unreliable Bushmasters. I ended up erroneously believing that all AR's were unreliable because of that. If only I'd saved, and scraped, and hunted down more Colts so I wouldn't have been afraid to make one of them my shooter.
Thanks, Bushmaster, for making me believe for better than 10 years that the AR platform was a bad joke that cannot be made to work consistently.
Thanks to M4C and companies like BCM and Daniel Defense for finally setting me straight. After 1,000 rounds without a single hiccup through a BCM carbine, I will never again be fooled into believing that "all AR's are alike."
Maybe it's not a coincidence that both Bushmaster and bowel movement are abbreviated "BM". :D
wetidlerjr
06-05-12, 17:37
There was a recent thread about Wyndham on TOS and it was a train wreck. One of the major points of the "Wyndham Lovers" was that if you didn't own one you had no reason (or right) to diss them. My reply was that I didn't have to own a Yugo to know they were a POS. Other than that, I saw it would be a waste to say more as the "Wyndham Lovers" were not hearing anything. The whole thread made my head hurt. :D
BM quality(Or lack thereof) has been pretty consistent. The context is what is important. There was a time when there were only a few manufacturers.
Colt, Bushmaster, Armalite, Oly and Hesse.
At te time Colt was being difficult towards the civilian market. Hesse has always been a waste of good metal, and of the others BM was probably the best.
So at he time BM was considered good for what was available. We have more options now. Companies that make real quality. And of course Colt is now Civi friendly.
What's wrong with Armalite other than cost? Every Armalite I've handle seemed very well built. Just a little pricey for what it was.
During the ban era, I owned 3 ARs - two of which were a new Colt Match Target HBAR and a new BM Mod Carbine. I must've put over 5,000 -7,000 rounds through that BM without issue. I abused the living crap out of that thing and "babied" my Colt. Multiple bump fires every time I was out, as that was cool back then, LOL. Not to mention nobody seemed to know how or what I was doing. Mag dumps galore. And still a 1.25 MOA rifle with a heavy CL barrel.
Anyway, that thing took everything I threw at it. Never replaced a single part on it, no maintenance of any sort, other than thorough cleaning. Wolf ammo, brass ammo, anything and everything.
Just sayin'. They DON'T make the BMs like they used to. That thing was as reliable (at least up to 7K rounds) as all of my high dollar rifles now.
This I have a BM from 1998 and it is flawless!
TheDutchman
06-07-12, 00:19
Back in the "day", Colt wasnt putting out the best civilian rifles and didnt have great civilian support. BM, RRA, OLY, and DPMS were what people saw, read about, and bought. They didnt have "charts", they didnt have resources like M4C. Most of the time, that BM worked like a charm, and will work like a charm today, but some of us prefer not to take that risk.
I had a Sgt with 1st ANGLICO awhile back, one of our FO's. Good dude, and a total gun nut. He was an NRA CCW instructor, rifle coach, and helped alot of bring our combat marksmanship up to where it should be. He owns a 16" Noveske, and a 16" DPMS, and swears he overpaid for the Noveske because his DPMS is "just as nice". He knows his stuff when it comes to tactics, but he is a little ignorant on this topic. Still, he shoots more than I do and his DPMS, according to him, never failed him. My LMT...not so much. We all get wrapped up into this so much, thinking that a BM or RRA is garunteed to self destruct, but the reality is that they will probably work well. How much stake do you want to put into "probably", thats the question.
I have seen Paul Howe run a DPMS.
Alaskapopo
06-07-12, 01:48
Back in the "day", Colt wasnt putting out the best civilian rifles and didnt have great civilian support. BM, RRA, OLY, and DPMS were what people saw, read about, and bought. They didnt have "charts", they didnt have resources like M4C. Most of the time, that BM worked like a charm, and will work like a charm today, but some of us prefer not to take that risk.
I had a Sgt with 1st ANGLICO awhile back, one of our FO's. Good dude, and a total gun nut. He was an NRA CCW instructor, rifle coach, and helped alot of bring our combat marksmanship up to where it should be. He owns a 16" Noveske, and a 16" DPMS, and swears he overpaid for the Noveske because his DPMS is "just as nice". He knows his stuff when it comes to tactics, but he is a little ignorant on this topic. Still, he shoots more than I do and his DPMS, according to him, never failed him. My LMT...not so much. We all get wrapped up into this so much, thinking that a BM or RRA is garunteed to self destruct, but the reality is that they will probably work well. How much stake do you want to put into "probably", thats the question.
Most of the DPMS shooters who are any good in three gun do not use stock parts. In fact many of them have rifles that say DPMS on the lower and that is about the only thing on the rifle that is DPMS.
Pat
I have seen Paul Howe run a DPMS.
Dropped them and went to LWRC I think and is now off of them as well.
Last I heard, he was running a BCM (I think).
C4
skullworks
06-07-12, 09:12
I bought a BM 16" Shorty back in '01 when everyone "knew" BM was the cat's meow and DPMS was crap. Worked well enough for me, though NOT a high round count and I got rid of it in '03 when it became time to leave the U.S.
As for fit and finish; how about this one (not mine):
https://fbcdn_sphotos_h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/578162_10150789400428117_507658116_9733715_938839062_n.jpg
Anyone know the history on this particular lower: one off, limited run?
I bought a BM 16" Shorty back in '01 when everyone "knew" BM was the cat's meow and DPMS was crap. Worked well enough for me, though NOT a high round count and I got rid of it in '03 when it became time to leave the U.S.
As for fit and finish; how about this one (not mine):
https://fbcdn_sphotos_h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/578162_10150789400428117_507658116_9733715_938839062_n.jpg
Anyone know the history on this particular lower: one off, limited run?
I don't care if it's a BM lower, I need one!!!
skullworks
06-07-12, 09:37
I don't care if it's a BM lower, I need one!!!
My sentiments also.
1859sharps
06-07-12, 17:34
I would say that late 90's/2000 is kind of the cut off for the golden years for BM. rifles built during this time are pretty good given a few caveats. I also think it's important to keep some perspective on Bushmaster given a couple factors pre 2000.
1. as previously stated, the AR market used to be much smaller, only a "couple" manufactures.
2. Colt made some poor choices post 89' for the better part of a decade in terms of public relations, trying to dodge being put on ban lists etc.
3. People in general didn't buy ARs for anything other than "showing off" at the range...look, I have something "few" have. "No one" seriously considered ARs a home defense gun, nor trained for that as is done now. Note the "", I am referring to the majority, the typical AR owner.
So... 1 and 2. of the manufactures, it was colt, then BM, then all the others. BM didn't make a bad product given the times, why people bought ARs. Remember back then "everyone" knew you buy handguns and shotguns for self defense. ARs were a "toy", not something you staked your life on. heck even in LEO circles the use of ARs was VERY rare outside of big city swat.
Colt made some change to their guns that took them out of "mil spec" and you could NOT enter change "mil spec" uppers with them. This did in fact let BM have a bragging point over colt civilian marketed guns for being "mil spec". Not only that, their quality at the time was pretty good, not Colt, but pretty good. much better than your other choices.
fast forward to today. Post 2000, BM quality verse pre 2000 quality is lower. AND it's compounded by a more savvy, educated AR buyer/owner who is more likely to be wanting an AR that can stand up to regular training and heavy use and still be depended on to be a primary self defense gun. heck even some of the "sporting" uses of ARs such as hunting and shooting competitions is relatively new verse how long the AR has been marketed to civilians. Again, referencing the majority or typical use. Essentially for most the AR was a novelty toy that didn't see much use until fairly recently. which allowed even Olympic rifles to be "good enough" for most people.
Today we have new companies like Bravo, Noveske and a couple others which build ARs to meet the demands put on the rifles as they are becoming more commonly used. Even even Pre 2000 BM as a rule can't "cut it" without some help. I have a very well built pre 2000 16 in upper, but the carrier key isn't staked from the factor. it's a very reliable, well built upper once the key was staked, but as from the factory it wouldn't out of the box hold up to what a lot of M4 carbine members do with their rifles.
So, while BM has NEVER been a "colt" or actually as good as, but it was given the times a darn good second place. By today's standards, even given Pre 2000 quality, it doesn't stack as a good second place anymore.
squeethebee
06-07-12, 22:18
I don't care if it's a BM lower, I need one!!!
Literally saw this 2 days ago, if you really need a lower like that.:cool:
http://www.yorkarms.com/receiver.html
ed
CompressionIgnition
06-08-12, 00:44
I don't care if it's a BM lower, I need one!!!
Take your current lower to your local engraver. Odds are, they can do it.
skullworks
06-08-12, 05:10
Take your current lower to your local engraver. Odds are, they can do it.
The tricky bit is the existing engraving (I know; does not apply to all lowers). You'd probably have to have the lower refinished afterwards.
Tatatatatatapatalk 2
I bought my first Bushy in '94, just before the Clinton ban. It was a great AR in a time when AK's and exotics ruled for me. And compared to all AK's, except my IMI Galil, the Bushy AR was superior in every way. Back then, it was either Colt or Bushmaster for the AR. And Colt had all the stupid p/c features that made me sick as well as inferior triggers compared to the Bushy. So basically, since the early '90's, Bushmaster stayed the same while Colt, finally got the message and all the new "boutique" companies like Noveske and BCM brought the good 'ol AR15 to a whole new level. Times have changed a lot. For 10 years we couldnt buy a gun with a flash hidder!! And before the 90's, only "poor" newbies and nefarious vets had AR's. The "cool" guys had Valmet, HK91, Galil's etc or at least an Uzi. So if you showed up out in the 'glades for a shoot with a lowly AR, you had to hang out with the guy with the M1 carbine and the Mauser...lol. Ah the good old days.
PA PATRIOT
06-09-12, 10:32
Me and several members of my family all purchased early 90's Bushmasters before the Fed ban speed builds hit the market and to date all the rifles are running without problem.
My Bushy has served me perfectly with zero issues over 18,000rds fired during classes and three gun events and all of the other Bushmaster rifles have 10,000+ rounds without any parts failure and only simple maintenance.
Does this make Bushmasters a great rifle? At least for me it does and while this Bushy has gone round for round with my Colts, Adams Arms and DD's I do not judge it to be any less in quality until she gives me reason to.
1859sharps
06-09-12, 10:52
At least BM never played those games. And we still had to put up with the "Restricted" roll mark from Colt up until just a few months ago.
While a BM may never match the quality of a Colt, don't think for a minute that Colt is a friend to the civilian shooter.
While BM may never have been as well made as a colt, There was a time that it was hard to recommend Colt due to how they treated the civilian market in the 90's. And the goofy changes they made to their rifles.
Again, given why most people bought ARs at the time I would and did recommend BM over colt at the time simply because of how colt treated the civilian market. And at the time BMs weren't bad guns. They were well made "commercial grade" rifles and few people ever used their ARs like is more common now. so any short comings weren't as much an issue. people didn't buy (in general) ARs to stake their life on or train hard, or many other factors that drive AR quality demands of today.
some of us "older folk" do have BM products from back in the day that work and work well, I personally don't see any reason to ditch those guns if they are still running and reliable. particularly if you aren't staking your life on the gun.
However, given the better options of today, even taking Colt out of consideration, I am not sure why you would buy a BM anymore. And doubly so since their quality even compared to it's self isn't what it used to be. BM has never been more than a good "commercial grade gun". and unless something has changed recently, its struggling to even be that today.
I had an older BM XM15 E2S from the ban years that never gave me a problem. It, however, was not in the same ballpark quality wise as my Colt and the BCM rifles I have tried. I am not sure anyone should consider a bushmaster at this point when you have so many other options that are built to a better spec (in the same price range!) From what I have heard, Spikes Tactical is a much better deal for the money.
As was mentioned earlier, during the ban years, there really was not a great selection of AR style rifles available. The consumer demand wasn't the same then either. Ammo was much more affordable, but unless you already had pre 1994 colt, you were going to pay an arm and a leg for a pre-ban rifle. Regular USGI mags were outrageously expensive too (we are talking 30 dollars each, if you could find them that cheap.) Regular capacity Glock mags were going for upwards of 50 dollars each, if you could find them.
If you think about it, we really are living in a great time for shooting and collecting. Albeit mil-spec M193 and M855 are much more expensive now if you do not reload. Hopefully the Obacalypse will not occur this November. We don't need another run on everything firearm related circa 2008.
I had an older BM XM15 E2S from the ban years that never gave me a problem. It, however, was not in the same ballpark quality wise as my Colt and the BCM rifles I have tried. I am not sure anyone should consider a bushmaster at this point when you have so many other options that are built to a better spec (in the same price range!) From what I have heard, Spikes Tactical is a much better deal for the money.
As was mentioned earlier, during the ban years, there really was not a great selection of AR style rifles available. The consumer demand wasn't the same then either. Ammo was much more affordable, but unless you already had pre 1994 colt, you were going to pay an arm and a leg for a pre-ban rifle. Regular USGI mags were outrageously expensive too (we are talking 30 dollars each, if you could find them that cheap.) Regular capacity Glock mags were going for upwards of 50 dollars each, if you could find them.
If you think about it, we really are living in a great time for shooting and collecting. Albeit mil-spec M193 and M855 are much more expensive now if you do not reload. Hopefully the Obacalypse will not occur this November. We don't need another run on everything firearm related circa 2008.
Perhaps organizations such as the NRA should adopt a philosophy that weapons proliferation is good for the economy. :D
particularly if you aren't staking your life on the gun. I hear this being tossed around a lot.
What are the "requirements" to be able to trust your life with a particular AR? Is it as long as it doesn't have: DPMS, BM, Olympic arms, RRA, etc stamped on it?
So if I fire 500+ rounds through it in a day w/o a malfunction would that be ok?
What SHTF situation do you think you’re going to get into? LE included where you are going to fire more than even 100 rounds?
Seriously.
Phila stated he has 18k rounds through his BM w/o malfunction, but because it has a BM stamped on it, don't trust your life with it?
:rolleyes:
CompressionIgnition
06-10-12, 18:13
I hear this being tossed around a lot.
[...] Phila stated he has 18k rounds through his BM w/o malfunction, but because it has a BM stamped on it, don't trust your life with it?
:rolleyes:
Whenever somebody has a lot of trouble-free rounds through an "undesirable" weapon (BM, XD, what have you) they are either ignored or it is implied they are liars.
I hear this being tossed around a lot.
What are the "requirements" to be able to trust your life with a particular AR? Is it as long as it doesn't have: DPMS, BM, Olympic arms, RRA, etc stamped on it?
So if I fire 500+ rounds through it in a day w/o a malfunction would that be ok?
What SHTF situation do you think you’re going to get into? LE included where you are going to fire more than even 100 rounds?
Seriously.
Phila stated he has 18k rounds through his BM w/o malfunction, but because it has a BM stamped on it, don't trust your life with it?
:rolleyes:
The point is, it's a gamble. Some guys have great BM experiences, and plenty of them have shitty experiences as well. I'm not betting a thousand bucks on whether my next gun is going to be trash or not.
It makes so much more sense to spend another hundred bucks an get something you KNOW is going to work. BCM is called "professional grade weaponry" for a reason, and I'm gonna keep sticking with professional grade weaponry.
1859sharps
06-10-12, 23:01
I hear this being tossed around a lot.
What are the "requirements" to be able to trust your life with a particular AR?
consistency of quality and build specs that address reliability during hard use, in non pristine environments. Such as any place other than a nice clean safe range.
Take my pre 2000 BM upper. i would consider it well built and reliable. I would trust my life to it as a home defense gun.
Compare my post 2000 BM upper from around 2001/2002 if memory serves, and I can't even make it through a simple CMP practice match without babying it. this rifle has to be pristine clean and lubed and not over heated to function. how could you EVER stake your life one something like that?
there is enough feed back floating around to have a high confidence this isn't a one off situation.
I know people like to try and think it's about the roll mark on the rifle and for some people...maybe. BUT there are sometimes actual, good reasons why people say...stay away from BM and other similar companies.
I provide a fairly positive view of BM in my posts for historical context and info only. As I have said, even just comparing BM of pre 2000 to BM of post 2000 you see a change in quality. And not for the better. At least in my experience and there are others out there with MUCH more experience than I saying the same thing.
if small companies like Bravo can build a high quality rifle, then there is no reason larger companies like BM/DMPS/Remington can't be actually just as good as a Colt. they choose to be less for a reason, and it's usually about profit. which is absolutely ok since I can choose to give my money to someone else.
The thing is, if you just send a few rounds down range from time to time, you probably will never run into the short comings of a BM and others like them. Doesn't mean they aren't there. And just because someone gets a BM rifle from time to time where everything came together perfectly, does not disprove that BM doesn't have issues.
I personally would rather buy from a company where 1 in a 1000 rifles has an issue verse a company that 1 in a 1000 is done right.
leibermuster
06-10-12, 23:16
I own a BM, but there is no way I could recommend them over the plethora of better options out there like DD,Noveske,KAC,Spikes,HK,POF,LMT,COLT to name but a few....And also so many other options that only cost a little more..
justin_247
06-10-12, 23:25
For everybody who keeps saying that their "pre-_____" Bushmaster is perfectly reliable compared to their Colts:
How about you take some pictures of your rifle and describe its features that would help us to see why this would be the case compared to a newer Bushmaster? What kind of maintenance have you performed on it? Have you kept it well-lubed? If you've fired 18,000 rounds, what is the condition of the bolt? Etc. etc.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
06-10-12, 23:29
I hear this being tossed around a lot.
.........
Whenever somebody has a lot of trouble-free rounds through an "undesirable" weapon (BM, XD, what have you) they are either ignored or it is implied they are liars.
Hi, I notice that you two havent been here long, but youve been here long enough to have read the stickies, the mission statement, and gotten the feel for this forum, but apparently you didnt pick up on any of that. Please, stop posting now. Please, start reading.
If you cant play nicely here without adhering to the rules and atmosphere, then please take a hike. This is a boutique forum that caters to a certain class of shooters. The gentlemen here choose their rifles because those rifle were built to a specific set of standards and regulations, were independently tested and certified to military and industry standards, and have the backing of multiple industry professionals and subject matter experts. When I buy a Colt, I dont need to put it through an 18K round test to find out if it is worth staking my life upon, because the testing and reputation speaks for itself. Your willingness to trust BM because of the sample size of one in this thread speaks volumes about your mindset.
If you want a Bushmaster, cool, go buy 2 of them and help the economy out. This forum has hashed, rehashed, and hashed again the merits and pitfalls of it and is tired of doing it. Want to read about it? Click the orange search button and type in Bushmaster. Your sarcastic and disparaging reply full of nothing but nonsense does nothing to advance the incredible amount of technical knowledge in this forum and has no place here.
CompressionIgnition
06-11-12, 00:14
Hi, I notice that you two havent been here long, but youve been here long enough to have read the stickies, the mission statement, and gotten the feel for this forum, but apparently you didnt pick up on any of that. Please, stop posting now. Please, start reading.
If you cant play nicely here without adhering to the rules and atmosphere, then please take a hike. This is a boutique forum that caters to a certain class of shooters. The gentlemen here choose their rifles because those rifle were built to a specific set of standards and regulations, were independently tested and certified to military and industry standards, and have the backing of multiple industry professionals and subject matter experts. When I buy a Colt, I dont need to put it through an 18K round test to find out if it is worth staking my life upon, because the testing and reputation speaks for itself. Your willingness to trust BM because of the sample size of one in this thread speaks volumes about your mindset.
If you want a Bushmaster, cool, go buy 2 of them and help the economy out. This forum has hashed, rehashed, and hashed again the merits and pitfalls of it and is tired of doing it. Want to read about it? Click the orange search button and type in Bushmaster. Your sarcastic and disparaging reply full of nothing but nonsense does nothing to advance the incredible amount of technical knowledge in this forum and has no place here.
I have read plenty of stickies and posts. I took the advice of the forum and bought a Colt 6920. What I wrote was based on my observations in discussions regarding certain guns, which is that anybody who shares their positive experiences with guns deemed "undesirable" gets responded to in ways that are in no way professional or technical.
Your response here follows that same pattern.
skullworks
06-11-12, 03:36
What I wrote was based on my observations in discussions regarding certain guns, which is that anybody who shares their positive experiences with guns deemed "undesirable" gets responded to in ways that are in no way professional or technical.
The problem is that people who make those "mine's just as good as"-posts, where their sample size is one, fail to realize where they are on the bell curve. And others, who has a better understanding of the situation than that do get tired of hearing the "mine's just as good as" over and over when it's not a true representation of the situation. And after having tried to explain it more times than could reasonably be expected (since there are search buttons and stickies), the replies tend to become blunt and to the point.
The majority of BM's production is junk (or to play nice, "less than reliable for advanced use"). The fact that there are BM's out there that actually hold up does not change that fact. As other's already have stated; buying a BM is a gamble: yes, you may get a good one, but the odds are stacked against you. So, why take that bet when you instead can buy a BCM or Colt?
I hear this being tossed around a lot.
What are the "requirements" to be able to trust your life with a particular AR? Is it as long as it doesn't have: DPMS, BM, Olympic arms, RRA, etc stamped on it?
So if I fire 500+ rounds through it in a day w/o a malfunction would that be ok?
What SHTF situation do you think you’re going to get into? LE included where you are going to fire more than even 100 rounds?
Seriously.
Phila stated he has 18k rounds through his BM w/o malfunction, but because it has a BM stamped on it, don't trust your life with it?
:rolleyes:
For me, I like guns and parts that follow a set standard (TDP is a good one to follow). BM/RRA/DPMS, etc all follow one set standard. That is to make the weapon as cheaply as possible and put as much money in the owners pocket as possible.
If that is the gun you wish to bet your life on, then drive on. I do not.
I have seen lots of BM rifles with high round counts (usually the older ones). I have also seen Pat Rogers picture book of broken AR's and parts. Guess which company fills its pages???
C4
I have read plenty of stickies and posts. I took the advice of the forum and bought a Colt 6920. What I wrote was based on my observations in discussions regarding certain guns, which is that anybody who shares their positive experiences with guns deemed "undesirable" gets responded to in ways that are in no way professional or technical.
Your response here follows that same pattern.
I think some of the skepticism comes from high round count numbers. Mr. Hackathon once clued me in that people generally have two problems when it comes to shooting. They cannot remember the number of rounds fired and suffer from malfunction amnesia. He always advised me that when someone gave you a large round count number, you always remove a zero.
With that said, people do have BM AR's from the 90's with high round count. These guns were typically shot around 500rd a YEAR via slow fire (not carbine schools).
Most of us that are in to training with our AR's would have burned a barrel out in 5-8 years (not 14-18).
I once had a 9mm Hi-Point rifle that ran very well. Does that mean that I think all Hi-Point's run well? No. Would I recommend them to anyone? No. Personally, I think it is great when someone gets a less quality firearms to run reliably, but at the end of the day, you have to ask if this is the norm or a fluke.....
C4
1859sharps
06-11-12, 10:51
What SHTF situation do you think you’re going to get into? LE included where you are going to fire more than even 100 rounds?
would you settle for a car that broke down ever 100 miles? oh sure you might not getting to routine high speed chases like a LE does. Or you may not have a need for your car not to fail randomly preventing you from reaching someone who called 911 for help. But that doesn't mean you would put up with a car that can't go more than a 100 miles at a time without breaking down.
you don't need to be a LEO, Soldier, Marine, "preper" getting ready for some theoretical SHTF to want a reliable rifle that will hold up to some heavy use.
Some people just prefer to shoot their guns verse regularly repair them. Some people like to shoot A LOT. And just want a quality gun that they can just pickup and go and not worry about if it will work or not.
There is NO such thing as the unbreakable AR, but there some companies that build to hold up to harder use than others. At this time there are companies such as BM that do NOT build their guns as well as they could.
I find it mind boggling that for some people the concept of "there are better choices for same or some times even less" money is soooo hard to get their head around. Yes, there was a time BM was a very good second choice...but even then a part of that was due to limited alternative choices verse them being "as good as colt"..which they have never been.
Today you do have better and more choices that really do come close to being "just as good as a colt" or actually being "just as good as a colt". So given that, why would you NOT buy one of those choices. Or for that matter just buy a Colt?
Please show us where that happened? In fact, I don't doubt that some of those brands will hold up. The question is this. Did you get that one or did someone else?
I happened to have more than a little experience with BM carbines and every single one that we had at the time (500) had the same issues, over and over.
Couple that with the fact that these carbines are selling for similar prices as BCM, DD, Colt or LMT and you are generally overpaying. Then you still need to make corrections to bring it up as much as possible.
Whenever somebody has a lot of trouble-free rounds through an "undesirable" weapon (BM, XD, what have you) they are either ignored or it is implied they are liars.
Couple that with the fact that these carbines are selling for similar prices as BCM, DD, Colt or LMT and you are generally overpaying. Then you still need to make corrections to bring it up as much as possible.
I think this is the key here. If you could pick up a BM for $399 out the door, it might be worth taking the chance of finding a good one for a dirt clod range plinker. But why anyone in their right mind would pay the same price for a BM or DPMS when they can get a BCM, Colt, or DD for the same price or maybe slightly more, is beyond me.
You “can” find a BM, DPMS, RRA, etc that runs fine, but history has shown that the rifles from these companies have a much higher chance of failure due to the lack of QC and sub-par spec standards. That being the case, and prices being similar, there is absolutely NO good reason to gamble on a sub-par rifle when, for the same price, you can get one from a proven and trusted high quality manufacturer.
HackerF15E
06-11-12, 13:01
I have also seen Pat Rogers picture book of broken AR's and parts.
I still think this would be a fascinating piece to have scanned and available on the web for wider consumption.
I still think this would be a fascinating piece to have scanned and available on the web for wider consumption.
Probably not as the "butt hurtness" would be epic.
C4
HackerF15E
06-11-12, 13:15
Probably not as the "butt hurtness" would be epic.
Exactly the reason to do it. It'd be like ripping the band-aid off -- painful at first (for some), but great overall in the long run.
If companies are embarrassed to see their products displayed in that way, then it gives them motivation to change.
If people are embarrassed to see particular brands and products displayed there, then they need to "harden the f up", not take crap so personally, and make better choices in the future.
And, ultimately, making those better choices in the future based on seeing actual evidence would be the end-state objective.
Doc Safari
06-11-12, 14:19
Probably not as the "butt hurtness" would be epic.
C4
I agree that's exactly the reason to do it. People don't want to believe they just blew $1000 on junk, but when you show them pics of rifles having the same failure over and over again, they get the message. "A picture is worth a thousand words" applies here.
I admit when I came to this forum I already had my doubts about lower tier brands like BM, but didn't think it was appropriate to really harp on the quality differences since I couldn't discuss them as an expert. Now that I'm more edumacated myself, I get sick of watching threads that turn into train wrecks of people valiantly defending their DPMS POS or whatever their "pet" brand is.
CompressionIgnition
06-11-12, 14:35
I still think this would be a fascinating piece to have scanned and available on the web for wider consumption.
Not just fascinating, but valuable.
CompressionIgnition
06-11-12, 15:01
Please show us where that happened?
Examples:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=102399
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=103964
I saw nothing in those threads where someone was called (or implied to be) a Liar because they supported X brand.
When someone said "My XD worked fine" several people did ask about the number of XD pistols they have owned or shot. That isn't calling names its just looking for a "sample size".
Can you find a thread about rifles or where you specificaly talking about XD pistols.
Freedoooom
06-11-12, 15:58
I saw nothing in those threads where someone was called (or implied to be) a Liar because they supported X brand.
When someone said "My XD worked fine" several people did ask about the number of XD pistols they have owned or shot. That isn't calling names its just looking for a "sample size".
Can you find a thread about rifles or where you specificaly talking about XD pistols.
http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1288363&postcount=19
That's typical for this whole entire forum.
Its always empirical evidence is bad, but their buddy who knows a buddy who went to a class who talked to the instructor and that instructor said one his buddies who also teaches classes always sees product "X" fail all the time.
Its really bad how it is around these type of forums. I can't remember who it was, but I found a guy saying how much he loved his EOTech that he bought in 2004 and he was talking about it in 2009, but the T1 came out and is more pretty now he decides the EOTech never worked very good at all and he hated it, even though just a few years ago he loved it and it worked flawlessly.
Its called Groupthink.
I'm not denying that "groupthink" happens on the internet.
However, I didn't see any name-calling because of brand preferance.
everyusernametaken
06-11-12, 16:24
And your post contributes anything more? I've spent a lot of time actually reading the information presented by the clearly knowledgeable people on this site, and I've seen plenty of empirical data, you just need to make a little effort to locate it. Funny, I've seen nothing of the sort to support the pro-lower tier side of the argument - it's usually just malcontents trying to discredit the people arguing against them with pointless diversions like your post. If you want to convince others that BM/whoever is competitive with the top-tier brands, why not present some data yourself, instead of blaming the whole community for not being receptive to new points of view?
God this crap gets old, even for those of us who are usually observers.
http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1288363&postcount=19
That's typical for this whole entire forum.
Its always empirical evidence is bad, but their buddy who knows a buddy who went to a class who talked to the instructor and that instructor said one his buddies who also teaches classes always sees product "X" fail all the time.
Its really bad how it is around these type of forums. I can't remember who it was, but I found a guy saying how much he loved his EOTech that he bought in 2004 and he was talking about it in 2009, but the T1 came out and is more pretty now he decides the EOTech never worked very good at all and he hated it, even though just a few years ago he loved it and it worked flawlessly.
Its called Groupthink.
And your post contributes anything more? I've spent a lot of time actually reading the information presented by the clearly knowledgeable people on this site, and I've seen plenty of empirical data, you just need to make a little effort to locate it. Funny, I've seen nothing of the sort to support the pro-lower tier side of the argument - it's usually just malcontents trying to discredit the people arguing against them with pointless diversions like your post. If you want to convince others that BM/whoever is competitive with the top-tier brands, why not present some data yourself, instead of blaming the whole community for not being receptive to new points of view?
God this crap gets old, even for those of us who are usually observers.
This is where the rubber hits the road. From MY experience, people just don't have the technical knowledge to argue why something is better (its all off of "feeling"). They also tend to have very limited experience with AR's (usually only owned one or two of them).
When I look for knowledge on how reliable a weapon is, I first ask firearms instructors as they see a lot of guns. I then search around the internet for any threads on the subject. This can be a bad thing though as you must always think about the fact that the problem was caused do to a "stupid user trick" or ammo/mags.
C4
CompressionIgnition
06-11-12, 19:22
I saw nothing in those threads where someone was called (or implied to be) a Liar because they supported X brand.
When someone said "My XD worked fine" several people did ask about the number of XD pistols they have owned or shot. That isn't calling names its just looking for a "sample size".
Can you find a thread about rifles or where you specificaly talking about XD pistols.
My mistake on the first part, I thought it was in the listed threads. I believe the thread I was found the statement in was titled "Which handgun? Rock Island 1911 or XD-40", but I cannot access it or find it through search.
In brief, a user stated that they had somewhere between 18 and 20k rounds through their XD, without any malfunctions or maintenance. One user responded along the lines of "I don't believe this (sorry)", another user said the recoil spring ought to have been replaced during this interval. (That last part is to see if I can jog someone's memory about the particular post.)
For your second question, I was referring to guns on the "undesirable" list in general, not limited to any particular rifles or handguns.
RogerinTPA
06-11-12, 20:46
Sometimes, the truth effects people in different ways. Here, it is often administered as a hard cold slap in the face of reality...
People (and those who have empathy for them), who chose poorly in their fire arms selection (not doing thorough research before hand) shouldn't get ass pain over others informed remarks. Learn from it, grow a thicker skin and drive on.
Sometimes, the truth effects people in different ways. Here, it is often administered as a hard cold slap in the face of reality...
People (and those who have empathy for them), who chose poorly in their fire arms selection (not doing thorough research before hand) shouldn't get ass pain over others informed remarks. Learn from it, grow a thicker skin and drive on.
Right. I personally do not believe in the "ignorance is bliss" rule. Meaning that if I bought a gun to defend myself and my loved ones (and it is less than quality), I WANT someone to tell me so I can resolve it.
The above is not true for everyone though.
C4
sinlessorrow
06-11-12, 22:22
Right. I personally do not believe in the "ignorance is bliss" rule. Meaning that if I bought a gun to defend myself and my loved ones (and it is less than quality), I WANT someone to tell me so I can resolve it.
The above is not true for everyone though.
C4
sadly my first experience with AR-15's was with a cheapo brand, lets just say I now use BCM.
sadly my first experience with AR-15's was with a cheapo brand, lets just say I now use BCM.
Eh, I think it's that way with most people. It certainly was with me. Glad I found this place though!!!
1859sharps
06-12-12, 11:57
Its really bad how it is around these type of forums. I can't remember who it was, but I found a guy saying how much he loved his EOTech that he bought in 2004 and he was talking about it in 2009, but the T1 came out and is more pretty now he decides the EOTech never worked very good at all and he hated it, even though just a few years ago he loved it and it worked flawlessly.
Its called Groupthink.
is that group think? or is that evolving with gained knowledge and experience, and improve products?
There is a difference ;)
The fact that I or a couple others in this thread have highly limited samples of BM products from OVER 10 years ago that are functioning just fine is NOT proof that BM is 'just as good as <fill in the blank>" some of the newer/better choices we have to that didn't exist 10+ years ago.
I have a limited sample of something built by them in the last 10 years, not even up to their old standards. There are a couple people in this thread who have had experience with a much wider sample of recent product than I that are also indicating a lack of quality. How is it group think to acknowledge that BM is no longer #2 in the "rankings" and isn't even producing up to it's own old standards?
I guess group think doesn't mean what it used to.
skullworks
06-12-12, 12:33
http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1288363&postcount=19
That's typical for this whole entire forum.
Its always empirical evidence is bad, but their buddy who knows a buddy who went to a class who talked to the instructor and that instructor said one his buddies who also teaches classes always sees product "X" fail all the time.
Its really bad how it is around these type of forums. I can't remember who it was, but I found a guy saying how much he loved his EOTech that he bought in 2004 and he was talking about it in 2009, but the T1 came out and is more pretty now he decides the EOTech never worked very good at all and he hated it, even though just a few years ago he loved it and it worked flawlessly.
Its called Groupthink.
Sir, I would agree that the first part you describe is groupthink. The second part (the EOTech come Aimpoint devotee) is not groupthink - it is pride of ownership.
The EOTech owner invested a large amount of money into product A. He will therefore not acknowledge any shortcomings of that product until he (on his "own" volition) decides to substitute that product for something else. Once he has substituted product A with product B, he will have no problem acknowledging the shortcomings of product A.
sinlessorrow
06-12-12, 12:44
Sir, I would agree that the first part you describe is groupthink. The second part (the EOTech come Aimpoint devotee) is not groupthink - it is pride of ownership.
The EOTech owner invested a large amount of money into product A. He will therefore not acknowledge any shortcomings of that product until he (on his "own" volition) decides to substitute that product for something else. Once he has substituted product A with product B, he will have no problem acknowledging the shortcomings of product A.
I have to agree with that.
I used to praise Eotech since I never had any problems with this, then I switched to the Aimpoint T-1 and I can honestly say there are some definite flaws with Eotechs like the battery life and the fact that it has a shut off.
I used to give those excuses since I had spend $500 into the optic, and lets face it, no one wants to admit all that money they spent could have been better spent somewhere else
skullworks
06-12-12, 12:46
We've all done it at one point in our lives. ;)
3. People in general didn't buy ARs for anything other than "showing off" at the range...look, I have something "few" have. "No one" seriously considered ARs a home defense gun, nor trained for that as is done now. Note the "", I am referring to the majority, the typical AR owner.
I don't know about this. Our club sponsored a few trainers who came in and did carbine classes for us. We were not all that educated at the time like we are now. We did not have resources like we do now. But we considered our ARs are primary defensive weapons and sought out training in them. This was 98-00.
I built my first AR in 94 and did it with the idea of defending myself with it if the time ever came.
And I was a non-educated (in terms of firearms) FUDD-lite type person back then, not knowing any better.
All the guys at our gun club, who I knew, who had ARs, thought similarly.
---
Sometimes, the truth effects people in different ways. Here, it is often administered as a hard cold slap in the face of reality...
"Denial: Denial is a defense mechanism' postulated by Sigmund Freud, in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence..."
skullworks
06-12-12, 15:37
Jesus, Will; way to pick a color! That orange burned my retinas!!! :D
"Denial: Denial is a defense mechanism' postulated by Sigmund Freud, in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence..."
The concept of belief perseverance plays a critical role as Well in my opinion.
1859sharps
06-12-12, 16:46
I don't know about this. Our club sponsored a few trainers who came in and did carbine classes for us. We were not all that educated at the time like we are now. We did not have resources like we do now. But we considered our ARs are primary defensive weapons and sought out training in them. This was 98-00.
I built my first AR in 94 and did it with the idea of defending myself with it if the time ever came.
And I was a non-educated (in terms of firearms) FUDD-lite type person back then, not knowing any better.
All the guys at our gun club, who I knew, who had ARs, thought similarly.
---
I did say "IN GENERAL" ;). clearly this was not meant to suggest everyone bought ARs solely as toys back in the day. But it wasn't very common to encounter someone in 80's early 90's that bought their AR to be a primary home defense gun. Remember, at that time 20" A2 rifles were pretty much the predominate model. much easier to defend your home with the carbines of today verse a full rifle of 15-20 years ago. also the feeling of 223/556 being to dangerous for over penetration of walls and such was much, much more prevalent.
Also, the AR was not as common a rifle as it is today. Main stream gun magazines still talked about it pretty much as a toy to fill that wish for a "military rifle"...assuming they even talked about the AR at all. Compared with today... you can't pickup a gun mag without some article about how to use some variation or other of the AR for main stream hunting.
I was referring to a time when varmint hunting was about the only hunting "accepted" for ARs and even then you were looked at a little funny. You were "laughed" off the DCM/CMP range, or at least not taken too seriously etc.
by the time frame you mention things were changing for sure. Then there is today..who would ever have thunk that Walmart would start carrying ARs even 5 years ago.
I did say "IN GENERAL" ;). clearly this was not meant to suggest everyone bought ARs solely as toys back in the day. But it wasn't very common to encounter someone in 80's early 90's that bought their AR to be a primary home defense gun. Remember, at that time 20" A2 rifles were pretty much the predominate model. much easier to defend your home with the carbines of today verse a full rifle of 15-20 years ago. also the feeling of 223/556 being to dangerous for over penetration of walls and such was much, much more prevalent.
Also, the AR was not as common a rifle as it is today. Main stream gun magazines still talked about it pretty much as a toy to fill that wish for a "military rifle"...assuming they even talked about the AR at all. Compared with today... you can't pickup a gun mag without some article about how to use some variation or other of the AR for main stream hunting.
I was referring to a time when varmint hunting was about the only hunting "accepted" for ARs and even then you were looked at a little funny. You were "laughed" off the DCM/CMP range, or at least not taken too seriously etc.
by the time frame you mention things were changing for sure. Then there is today..who would ever have thunk that Walmart would start carrying ARs even 5 years ago.
While today, 2012 and the past 5 years have seen a huge increase in the popularity of the AR, no doubt, the 90s was not some backwater of ARness where no one cared or knew what they were or they were all 20" guns.
Like I said, I was pretty much the average guy and I built my first AR in 94. I went to gun shows and stuff in 94 as well and there was a ton of AR stuff for sale (and Utah gun shows are/were king of the FUDD type shows).
Now, if you want to go back and change the statement to 1980s, you'd probably be more correct. However, your statement was "pre 2000" in your original post I replied to.
For pre-2000, you are way off base. Maybe pre 1990 or pre 1992 or so it would be more correct.
And people still argue about "over penetration" of 223 for home defense and think hand guns and shotguns are better, despite the evidence :)
Jesus, Will; way to pick a color! That orange burned my retinas!!! :D
My bad! :jester:
The concept of belief perseverance plays a critical role as Well in my opinion.
End of the day, two sides of the same coin. In my biz, I deal with this type of thing all day:
Dude: "I took X Blaster Super Pump and it works for me"
Me: "your n=1 experiences does not counter the 9 double blind published studies, or the fact that on testing, X Blaster Super Pump didn't even contain the active compounds the label claims. I have gotten direct feedback from over 1000 people that told me it didn't do a thing, etc, etc"
Dude: "I don't care about that objective science stuff, it made me uuuuuuuge. It worked for me!"
So on and so forth.... :shout:
I had a BM. It gave me no problems, but I am not a high rnd count guy nor do I go into places where the short comings of the BM may have shown themselves, nor do I consider my n=1 experience telling. My research via the BTDT folks here on M4C - and a few other places/people who have forgotten more in a day about the AR platform then I will ever know, explained in easy to understand language why the BM is a sub par AR.
I didn't find it difficult to understand and accept.
Me, I have this strange habit of listening to people who know considerably more then I do about a topic and act accordingly*
BM gone, Colt purchased. Moving along....:cool:
* = and when I'm in my lane/area of expertise, I hope the same happens, but again, people with far less knowledge, experience, etc, often feel compelled and qualified to debate a given topic per above example.
1859sharps
06-13-12, 17:00
While today, 2012 and the past 5 years have seen a huge increase in the popularity of the AR, no doubt, the 90s was not some backwater of ARness where no one cared or knew what they were or they were all 20" guns.
Look, I am talking generalities. I stand by my comments. No, not all rifles were 20"..but then I didn't say that, I said they were the predominate model. Not the only model. Again, I am talking generalities. you sir, and your friends, seem to be an exception to what I am saying. No surprise, there are always exceptions to every generality. My self and the people I hung out with were also exceptions to what I am saying.
Like I said, I was pretty much the average guy and I built my first AR in 94. I went to gun shows and stuff in 94 as well and there was a ton of AR stuff for sale (and Utah gun shows are/were king of the FUDD type shows).
same here, but I built my first ARs in 92' :dance3: I played with both 20" and 16". my gun show experience in California in that time range was pretty much like everyone else. the more Clinton talked about a ban, the more AR stuff appeared.
My pre 2000 comments are about BM quality of past years verse more current BM quality. not a demark for general improvement in public awareness and knowledge of ARs. I personally would put the improvement of AR knowledge and understanding and widening of their use by the general public as starting around the time leading up to the 1994 ban. it really took off after that ban expired. Particularly as the first gulf war 2 vets discharged and wanted their own AR and started sharing their knowledge.
Ya, people still argue about the whole over penetration thing. some people just never get the memo's of updated knowledge. But that belief was a WHOLE lot more wide spread. rural folks may have been a bit quicker to pickup the AR as a personal defense option, but the urban folks, it was more a novelty item. again. talking generalities. there are always going to be exceptions.
again, talking generalities, not pockets of exceptions. ;)
Ok. New poster here...
I have read this thread and many others considering what amounts to a "quality" AR versus a "save your money" AR. Including Stickys(thank you to the authors of those various threads)
I have searched, read, and re-read several threads regarding the overpriced crap of DPMS, Bushmaster, Oly, Stag, and RRA...my questions are...
What makes RRA in the same league as the other two?
Why is LWRC not mention in the same category as the "quality" AR market...I was happening to possibly purchase one. This website has me leaning towards a BCM, but was I making a bad choice to begin with?
They seem to make great hunting ARs(yes, well aware that is much different than a SHTF) but from what I have seen in person from taking classes and shooting...they seem to be better than both Bushmaster and DPMS. I have heard and seen much more good things from RRA than any other "lower tier brand".
Thank you for you time.
TElmer
Please see below.
Ok. New poster here...
I have read this thread and many others considering what amounts to a "quality" AR versus a "save your money" AR. Including Stickys(thank you to the authors of those various threads)
I have searched, read, and re-read several threads regarding the overpriced crap of DPMS, Bushmaster, Oly, Stag, and RRA...my questions are...
What makes RRA in the same league as the other two?
RRA still cuts corners just like the others. They are known to have tight chambers, crappy stakings, etc.. and they are overpriced when compared to BCM, Colt, and others.
Why is LWRC not mention in the same category as the "quality" AR market...I was happening to possibly purchase one. This website has me leaning towards a BCM, but was I making a bad choice to begin with?
LWRC is probably great if you want a piston design instead of a proven DI weapon. But, LWRC has had issues as well. Ask yourself if the extra cost is worth it?
They seem to make great hunting ARs(yes, well aware that is much different than a SHTF) but from what I have seen in person from taking classes and shooting...they seem to be better than both Bushmaster and DPMS. I have heard and seen much more good things from RRA than any other "lower tier brand".
Again, why settle for RRA when something like Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense or Noveske is in the same range and definitely more reliable.
Thank you for you time.
TElmer
Thanks for the reply.
I was looking at LWRCs DI gun. Seems Noveske is a little up there from the prices that I have seen.
BCM it is!!!
Again, why settle for RRA when something like Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense or Noveske is in the same range and definitely more reliable.
This is exactly what more people need to understand. Will a RRA work for most people's needs? probably. I have one with over 6,000 trouble free rounds (it was my first AR before I knew better). But I will never recommend one to anyone, simply because there are so many better options out there for the same price.
10-15 years ago there just weren't many good civilian rifle options available. But with so many great companies today, there is NO good reason why anyone should buy a BM, DPMS, Oly, or RRA.
This is exactly what more people need to understand. Will a RRA work for most people's needs? probably. I have one with over 6,000 trouble free rounds (it was my first AR before I knew better). But I will never recommend one to anyone, simply because there are so many better options out there for the same price.
Simply replace "RRA" with "BM" above and exact same experience/conclusion for me.
hotrodder636
06-19-12, 12:55
Right. I personally do not believe in the "ignorance is bliss" rule. Meaning that if I bought a gun to defend myself and my loved ones (and it is less than quality), I WANT someone to tell me so I can resolve it.
The above is not true for everyone though.
C4
This is exactly the reason I went from a DPMS to a KAC SR-15 with a T-1 on top. I do still have the DMPS, and am using it as a learning platform so I can learn as much as I can about the AR platform, including disassembly/reassembly. Furthermore, I did buy a BCM BCG for it, just so it has a better quality to it. Soon for learning, I will taking the lower fully apart and installing a quality LPK. Also, possibly in the future I may get a new chrome lined barrel for it so I can get experience with uppers. Basically in the end it will have only the lower and upper receiver forgings. Then again, I may completely start from scratch with BCM.
Doc Safari
06-19-12, 13:05
Again, why settle for RRA when something like Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense or Noveske is in the same range and definitely more reliable.
I think the honest answer is that civilians tend to buy AR's that they believe their buddies will approve of. (Colt is supposedly overpriced, so that takes it out of the picture, right?)
I can just hear some bubba in a gun shop telling his buddy "Who ever heard of Noveske? Get a DPMS. You know they're good."
When I sold my Daniel Defense to get my BCM mid-length, I had a helluva time getting rid of it. I think it was because most people who looked at it had never heard of Daniel Defense. It took the gun shop owner convincing the buyer to do a Google search online before it finally sold.
I think the honest answer is that civilians tend to buy AR's that they believe their buddies will approve of. (Colt is supposedly overpriced, so that takes it out of the picture, right?)
But not remotely limited to civis. I see/hear that from LEO all the time, mil, etc.
Others here have way more experience with ARs then I, but been told by mil Colt is subpar and "only used because they have the contract," lots of LEOs with all manner of ARs etc, etc. claiming better/just as good as Colt, etc.
I am amazed by how many LEOs and civis (don't recall any mil) focusing on the RRA for example because of the DEA contract and such.
Like many, I learned the hard way.
As to my original question...it was just that there are plenty of threads of people explaining in detail about BM, DPMS, etc. I just didn't know(at the time) what made RRA in that same league.
Too bad I can't find a BCM in stock anywhere right now.
This is exactly the reason I went from a DPMS to a KAC SR-15 with a T-1 on top. I do still have the DMPS, and am using it as a learning platform so I can learn as much as I can about the AR platform, including disassembly/reassembly. Furthermore, I did buy a BCM BCG for it, just so it has a better quality to it. Soon for learning, I will taking the lower fully apart and installing a quality LPK. Also, possibly in the future I may get a new chrome lined barrel for it so I can get experience with uppers. Basically in the end it will have only the lower and upper receiver forgings. Then again, I may completely start from scratch with BCM.
I like that approach. If you've already got a rifle that isn't consider "top tier" there's no sense in getting rid of the damn thing if it works....unless you're chances of using it to defend your life with it is higher than most (police, PMC etc). Just use it as your beater rifle and as a learning tool. Then when you've got enough money saved up, buy something good.
Like many, I learned the hard way.
As to my original question...it was just that there are plenty of threads of people explaining in detail about BM, DPMS, etc. I just didn't know(at the time) what made RRA in that same league.
Too bad I can't find a BCM in stock anywhere right now.
Grant has them in stock.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MID-750-LWC
I am amazed by how many LEOs and civis (don't recall any mil) focusing on the RRA for example because of the DEA contract and such.
Which is largely a bullshit reason, and the real reason is the crazy low LE pricing RRA offers.
On the other end of the spectrum you have SWAT commanders buying HK416s because they saw them on Future Weapons.
I like that approach. If you've already got a rifle that isn't consider "top tier" there's no sense in getting rid of the damn thing if it works....unless you're chances of using it to defend your life with it is higher than most (police, PMC etc). Just use it as your beater rifle and as a learning tool. Then when you've got enough money saved up, buy something good.
Or, you can take a staged approach.
Nearly 5 years old now.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376
Dropped them and went to LWRC I think and is now off of them as well.
Last I heard, he was running a BCM (I think).
C4
Paul spoke up a year or so ago in a thread he dropped LWRC I think it was an inconsistency in accuracy. He had good things to say about DPMS and was flamed for it by folks who had no idea who they were speaking to or about. He was classy in his response.
Thanks for the reply.
I was looking at LWRCs DI gun. Seems Noveske is a little up there from the prices that I have seen.
BCM it is!!!
lwrc doesn't make a di rifle.
Well i have Good news:D
one of My friends has for the last year texted ,called, emailed me just about every AR out there with the same "what about this one?" question attached .(RRA,Bushmaster,DPMS,Oly,some other weird ones I never heard of)
From My time here reading and personal choices I pushed him and told him save your money ,today he is Picking Up a Colt 6920 .I am waiting for him to call to ask me about Optics Next:sarcastic:.
already told him to pick up some Pmags which he is after reading about them
Never seen the LWRC DI gun. However I think if a person wanted a piston AR, a LWRC would be a good one. I mean with the exception of the 416, LV said it would be the piston AR to go with.
lwrc doesn't make a di rifle.
You are correct...complete mistake on my part.
Thanks
TElmer
PA PATRIOT
06-21-12, 12:03
Me and several members of my family all purchased early 90's Bushmasters before the Fed ban speed builds hit the market and to date all the rifles are running without problem.
My Bushy has served me perfectly with zero issues over 18,000rds fired during classes and three gun events and all of the other Bushmaster rifles have 10,000+ rounds without any parts failure and only simple maintenance.
Does this make Bushmasters a great rifle? At least for me it does and while this Bushy has gone round for round with my Colts, Adams Arms and DD's I do not judge it to be any less in quality until she gives me reason to.
I have seen lots of BM rifles with high round counts (usually the older ones). I have also seen Pat Rogers picture book of broken AR's and parts. Guess which company fills its pages???C4
Grant,
From reviewing Pat Rogers picture book of broken AR's and parts what was the recurring parts breakage on the older BushMasters? I would like this information for when I do monthly inspections of the families B/M's so to key on those areas of possible parts failure.
While I have kept up with basic maintenance and replacement of wear items such as springs and rings for the listed B/M's the 18,000rd barrel will be coming to a estimated end of its life within the next 3,000 to 5,000rds fired after inspection with two different T/E gauges. I think the good barrel life I enjoyed was from cases of low pressure steel .223 ammunition fired over the last 19 years.
Now after catching up with this thread it appeared some had the belief that I was stating the Bushmaster brand was of the same quality class as Colt, BCM and D/D and that was not the intent of my post. I was simply stating that My single older Bushmaster that has run perfectly over the last 19 years and 18,000rds fired was just as reliable as my Colt, D/D and Adams Arms rifles to date.
Now when the B/M needs a new barrel the selection will come from BCM or D/D and the BCG will be from BCM.
Grant,
From reviewing Pat Rogers picture book of broken AR's and parts what was the recurring parts breakage on the older BushMasters? I would like this information for when I do monthly inspections of the families B/M's so to key on those areas of possible parts failure.
Bolts was the big one.
C4
I can just hear some bubba in a gun shop telling his buddy "Who ever heard of Noveske? Get a DPMS. You know they're good."
It sounds like you have been to gun shops in my area lol. Only one in a 50 mile radius has a clue about AR quality and the differences between brands other than the logo on the lower receiver.
And another sad thing is the one gun shop who actually has a clue is more like an enthusiast supporting his gun addiction lol. Its not even a prominent dealer in the area. I can't say I haven't thought about setting one up myself though.
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