View Full Version : Entry level .308?
Stonebridge
06-04-12, 22:54
Hey guys,
Up till now, I've been largely focused on close-quarters stuff and been incredibly fortunate to train with some top-notch people in that field- Hackathorn, LAV and such. I love my handguns and sub-caliber carbines but now that I have some property, I would like to be able to shoot longer range, at least far enough to cover the land itself so 500 yards and in (I guess that's really medium-range). Eventually I'd like to add a long-range course of fire, scatter some steel around for my students who are into long-range to shoot for fun. While I doubt I'll ever be good enough to teach long-range shooting, I can certainly bring others in to do so.
Anyway, I'm looking for something to get started. Training wheels if you will. I'm not going to drop a fortune on a rifle and glass just starting out, just like I wouldn't buy $1500 golf clubs the first time I hit the links; I'm not good enough to where the additional performance will matter.
Right now I'm leaning toward a Savage with some Vortex glass only because my buddy is a Vortex dealer and can get me a good deal. I'd prefer a rifle with detachable box magazines... because... um... that's what I want.
So, does this sound like a decent enough setup to get started? I won't be rebarreling or smithing or anything else. I want to learn with this rifle until I feel that it's holding me back (which may never actually happen) and then if I need to upgrade, I'll build my once-in-a-lifetime rifle.
Aftermarket support isn't a huge deal because it'll be a while before I start messing with it. I would like a decently short barrel for convenience if I'm not giving up too much performance. One of my buddies on local PD/SWAT has his 700 cut down to 18". It's a mean little stick and for LEO engagement distances, darn near perfect.
So anyway, looking for a beginner's rifle, I'm not on any SWAT team's speed dial, I just want to be able to cover any of my three pieces of land which means 500 yards or less. The Savage and Vortex glass should give you an idea of my budget.
Thanks so much for any assistance you can give.
-'bridge
I'd say a savage or rem 700. Both good for your purposes. Get one with a hs precision stock or be prepared to buy a decent stock if you get one of the rifles with the factory synthetic stocks- there a joke.
Vortex Pst are good for the money, bushnell and weaver also have some good entry level ffp scopes for under 1k.
I'd probably get a 223 if I were only shooting out to 500 yds, if not 308- both have readily available factory match ammo so you don't have to reload.
Sounds like you pretty much got the basics covererd. Good luck.
Boxerglocker
06-05-12, 08:57
I agree with Anthony1... If 500 yards is your limit.... then it's possible that a .308 is actually a waste.
When I got into building my precision rifle I debated back and forth and went with .223, my two buddies went all testosterone and opted for .308 even though they knew their range restrictions were the same.
I'm on the same boat as the OP. My home club range is limited to 200 meters the other I visit as a members guest is 300 yards. I do visit two others that push 400-500 for match days only.
I hand load my own varmint and heavy bullet loads for my R700 SPS Tactical in .223 at 200 yards my rifle can do half MOA with Varget or H335 powder pushing 55 Vmax or 60 Nosler ballistics bullets. I can hand load either for less than $30 a hundred. When I practice with my buddies for an afternoon they are done at 40 rounds and a lot deeper into their pockets with factory ammo.
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/467063_213354982117705_100003296141037_347860_1490033598_o.jpg
Remington SPS Tactical in .223
B&C Medalist Tactical stock, KRG bolt lift, SWFA SS 10x42 scope, TPS 0 MOA base and 30mm rings. Timney 510 trigger, Harris bipod.
BrigandTwoFour
06-05-12, 09:56
You're going to get a lot of opinions from everyone pushing their rifle of preference at your price point.
The truth is, they will almost all work just fine for you. Rem 700's will have the longest lifetime support, but may not work as great out of the box.
Savages have a reputation for being tack drivers out of the box, but not working out long term (note: I have no experience on this, it's just scuttlebutt)
Tikka T3s have fantastic triggers and a great reputation.
Howa 1500s are not as well known, but also seem to have great performance. There is a factory detachable mag kit available for $90ish. Not much gunsmith support out there, though.
Pretty much any option you go with is going to require a new stock, except maybe the Savage, if you got the accustock.
.308 or .223 won't matter too much at the range you're looking at. But if you ever get the chance to go up to 1000, you might want the .30.
Nothing wrong with Vortex glass. Stick to the Viper line and up (Viper, PST, Razor). The lower end ones were not really meant to handle heavy recoil.
Everyone has their opinion based off of their experiences. I think first, you need to decide what you are willing to shell out for a rifle. I personally felt stretched spending 1000-ish on a Remington 5-R, but have been extremely happy with it. These have gotten great reviews from many people. The only real gripe I have about mine out of the box was trigger pull, but that was remedied by replacing it with one of the old style Remington triggers. You should address key features such as floated vs non-floated, quality of stock, stainless or non stainless, and to what degree would you like to customize the rifle in the long run.
Sounds like you got a pretty good plan. Both remmy and savage are good accurate guns. I do not like the lower end stocks, they will change zero on a bipod. Splurge for a PSS or VS in remmy. No noting of savages current line up, so cant comment there.
Big fan of Vortex scopes, the highend ones. Get a 20MOA base and good rings. Get a scope level. You dont have to limit yourself. Go do some F-class matches. If you get 308 or 223 you can shoot F/TR and trust me one good match and you will learn alot. Get the basics then you can play unknown distance and all that fun stuff.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/funny/never_savage.jpg
Tikka T3s have fantastic triggers and a great reputation. .
+1 I'd highly recommend a Tikka. Very accurate right out of the box, nice triggers that are easily adjustable, and silky smooth action. Also have a box magazine. You won't have to do anything with the stock either unless you prefer to. Good luck with your choice!
fallenromeo
06-06-12, 10:33
The Tikka T3 is nice, but isn't it also about twice the price of the Savage 10 or R700?
Edit: Nvm. I was looking at the tactical verson which is around 1400. A quick search showed my mistake.
BrigandTwoFour
06-06-12, 11:17
The Tikka T3 is nice, but isn't it also about twice the price of the Savage 10 or R700?
Edit: Nvm. I was looking at the tactical verson which is around 1400. A quick search showed my mistake.
It does cost more than ~$500 Remingtons, but it's about on par with the Accustock Savages. However, if you look at it is a trade off on components, the Tikka probably won't need a new trigger or stock. I've also heard that they are pretty much trued from the factory. My biggest drawback on the Tikka is the recoil lug arrangement. I just don't see it being a long term solution and will require some kind of modification.
My personal preference is actually the Howas. Flat bottom receivers (a la old Sakos) make for easy bedding, the machining is very nice, and the new ones come with nice two stage triggers (my preference). The main drawback is that the barrels are metric threaded, which will turn away a lot of gunsmiths, and are apparently a royal bitch to remove.
The aftermarket support is building, but isn't at the level of Remy or Savage. That doesn't mean it's terrible, though. Good quality aftermarket parts are available for the Howas (and the Tikkas, for that matter), there just isn't the huge variety of the same part.
Stonebridge
06-06-12, 12:33
A lot of really great input so far; I'm very appreciative. I know there are lots better choices out there but I really want to keep this a 'beginner's gun.' If the bug bites, and I start to feel limited by the platform, then I'll build my ultimate rifle but for now I'm going to try to keep it low end. I'll be limiting the platform for a looong time before it's limiting me ;)
As for the .223 vs. .308 I know there are plenty of .223 rifles (shooters, really) that can make 500 yards look like a chip shot. I think I still want .308 on the off chance I ever do get the opportunity to stretch it out or maybe take a beginner's long-range rifle class. And the extra 'authority' of the larger caliber would be kinda nice if I ever really needed it for something besides ringing steel.
One of my LEO buddies has his Remmy cut down pretty short. I'll be toting my rifle in my Eberlestock gunslinger so shaving weight isn't such a big deal but that short little barrel appeals to me. CDI factor maybe. Do you lose a ton of performance in an 18" .308? I figure it's kinda silly to talk about taking a long range class and hacking the barrel down in the same post but humor me if you could.
Thanks so much guys.
-'bridge
You're going to get a lot of opinions from everyone pushing their rifle of preference at your price point.
The truth is, they will almost all work just fine for you. Rem 700's will have the longest lifetime support, but may not work as great out of the box.
Savages have a reputation for being tack drivers out of the box, but not working out long term (note: I have no experience on this, it's just scuttlebutt)
Tikka T3s have fantastic triggers and a great reputation.
Howa 1500s are not as well known, but also seem to have great performance. There is a factory detachable mag kit available for $90ish. Not much gunsmith support out there, though.
Pretty much any option you go with is going to require a new stock, except maybe the Savage, if you got the accustock.
.308 or .223 won't matter too much at the range you're looking at. But if you ever get the chance to go up to 1000, you might want the .30.
Nothing wrong with Vortex glass. Stick to the Viper line and up (Viper, PST, Razor). The lower end ones were not really meant to handle heavy recoil.
Solid advice.
I can tell you from first-hand experience that the Howa is a reliable and accurate rifle. The only complaint that I have is the factory trigger sucks. But a Timmey fixes that for $100.
If you look around you will note that the Howa actions are used by many custom shops and manufacturers like Weatherby, Smith and Wesson, etc.
SkiDevil
One of my LEO buddies has his Remmy cut down pretty short. I'll be toting my rifle in my Eberlestock gunslinger so shaving weight isn't such a big deal but that short little barrel appeals to me. CDI factor maybe. Do you lose a ton of performance in an 18" .308? I figure it's kinda silly to talk about taking a long range class and hacking the barrel down in the same post but humor me if you could.
If you search online, there is a lot of data how 18-20" barrels can handle their own, and definitely at the distance you will be shooting at. I believe Lowlight on Sniper's Hide once put up a video of how he was hammering away at 1,000 with an 18" barrel. IIRC, SWAT magazine also has an article out from a while back on using 18-20" barrels.
If a factory barrel, you might want to go 22" as they tend to lose fps a bit faster than the custom ones.
Stonebridge
06-06-12, 13:54
Thank you very much, one and all. Looks like I'll start out with the aforementioned entry-level setup and if the bug bites hard I'll be back on here having you guys sort out for me which is the 'very best' rifle and scope combo. THAT should make for a lengthier thread ;)
EDIT: Also, (as previously evidenced by my horrible golf game) my range estimation skills SUCK. Upon measuring with a satellite map, I have approx. 800 meters unobstructed to shoot on and probably an additional 200 meters if I get up above the hedgerows. Definitely .308 territory.
If any other advice or warnings come to mind, feel free to keep posting.
Thanks so much,
-'bridge
Both Rem and Savage make 20 inch "tactical" model rifles. There are several members here that shoot to 1k with 20 inch .308s.
BrigandTwoFour
06-06-12, 20:52
Both Rem and Savage make 20 inch "tactical" model rifles. There are several members here that shoot to 1k with 20 inch .308s.
Tikka and Howa do as well.
The Howas are called "varminters." There is both a fluted and non-fluted option. Tikka has a rifle called the Compact Tactical Rifle (most people just say CTR). It's in the same price bracket as the others, but Beretta hasn't imported any in a while. There may be a couple on the used market. The other Tikka "Tactical" with a 20" is needlessly out of the price range.
I know there are lots better choices out there but I really want to keep this a 'beginner's gun.'
I recommend one of Mel's enrty packages for your stated purpose.
Sniper Central : Howa 1500 Entry Package:
http://www.snipercentral.com/scriflepackagedetails.phtml?packageid=1
Sniper Central : Remington 700 Entry Package:
http://www.snipercentral.com/scriflepackagedetails.phtml?packageid=2
Tikka T3 is my go to rifle, 975 Yards 10 inch steel yesterday was easy, it shoots silly accurate and mine is bone stock other than my paint job
100 yard group factory American Eagle 168 OTM ammunition
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/FMSNIPER/IMG_0599.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/FMSNIPER/IMG_0614.jpg
Nice paint job! I like it----
Thanks was not difficult to do
Stonebridge
07-02-12, 14:57
As I mentioned, I've been leaning heavily toward a Savage .308 topped with Vortex glass as my starter gun. Imagine my surprise when I learned that Savage, Vortex, and Hornady are putting on a range day ten miles from my house. I see that as a sign from the heavens right there; at least that's the excuse I'll be giving my wife :D
I have a Tikka Whitetail Hunter in 308 great rifle and superbly accurate.
Hey go with what you like. I got beat by a Savage just a couple weeks ago. It was a pretty much stock, but bedded into a Manners stock.
RC51_Texas
07-03-12, 17:44
It's hard to be the value of a Savage with that awesome Accutrigger, but my vote would be to go with a Remington 700 action - the PSS or LTR would make a good platform to start with. My 2 cents ...
The Savage is a good choice. Another good option is the Tikka. Get their varmint vession shoots well and less expensive than the tacticool version. In fact the plain jane hunting rifle is probably sub MOA the barrel will just heat up faster.
Gutshot John
07-03-12, 20:32
I can see Tikka, I can see Winchester actions, I can see FN and I certainly can see Remmy (which I would recommend).
Why when you have those options for comparable pricing would you ever go with a Savage? :nono:
Despite what the errornet would tell you the accutrigger sucks fat hairy cock. It brings nothing to the table.
Savages are accurate on the most part. I have seen to many of em in F-class winning to not beleive that. But most of em are tuned up pretty good. They are not however as smooth as remmys or tikkas. I am not a fan of the accutrigger either. but, a good stock, good glass, and trigger time trigger time trigger time. You came here wanting the savage, you know you did. Now go get it.
Wolf Spyder
07-05-12, 13:37
My vote is for a Remington 700.
I look at it this way, if anything ever does happen and the world falls apart... I like knowing I can find parts. This is the reason I went with the AR15 in stead of some of the other options out there. AR15's can be found every where from the military, law enforcement, and private ownership. The same is true of the Remington 700 bolt action rifles. The military and law enforcement use Remingtons heavily, not to mention the Remington 700 can be found in more homes than any other model of bolt action rifle here in America.
My completely stock 1976 Remington 700 in 22-250 prints three shot groups about the size of my thumb nail at 200 yards. Roughly 3/4 of an inch to 1 inch or so...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/JW7E3251EditedCroppedSized.jpg
QuietShootr
07-05-12, 14:46
I vote Savage as well. I wouldn't have another new factory Remington if you gave it to me for free. The only guy who beat me yesterday at a K was shooting a Savage. They are really accurate guns - they just won't take the abuse that some of the more expensive ones will.
On a budget, Savage all the way.
QuietShootr
07-05-12, 14:47
My vote is for a Remington 700.
I look at it this way, if anything ever does happen and the world falls apart... I like knowing I can find parts. This is the reason I went with the AR15 in stead of some of the other options out there. AR15's can be found every where from the military, law enforcement, and private ownership. The same is true of the Remington 700 bolt action rifles. The military and law enforcement use Remingtons heavily, not to mention the Remington 700 can be found in more homes than any other model of bolt action rifle here in America.
My completely stock 1976Remington 700 in 22-250 prints three shot groups about the size of my thumb nail at 200 yards. Roughly 3/4 of an inch to 1 inch or so...
Identified the important part in red.
Stonebridge
07-05-12, 15:48
@MOA you're right- my 'top of mind' brands for a budget rifle were Savage and Vortex. On August 18th I'll have the opportunity to shoot the exact rifle and scope combination that I think I want with Hornady ammo pretty much to my heart's content. I'm reserving judgement until I've actually gotten some trigger time with the platform.
As a side note, I mentioned the possibility of using a shorter, stiffer barrel. Savage is now offering a .308 with accu-stock and accu-trigger with a shortened threaded barrel they're calling their Precision Carbine. It looks to fit my criteria very nicely.
Taking a tangent from the main thread, I'd like to hear your opinions on scopes. It's pretty much decided to be a Vortex as I've been impressed with all the Vortex glass I've used so far and my buddy's a dealer.
I'm leaning toward a mil-dot reticle, though I have nothing to really back that idea up. Just preconceived notions again and let me reiterate, I'm a beginner looking to get started in longer range shooting; if a scope requires calculus to operate, it's going to be a while before I'm to that level. I'm not exactly sure what power/magnification I should be looking for. To recap, I have the acreage to reach out to 800 yards but will more often be shooting in the 200 - 500 range.
Thanks in advance. You guys have been great.
-'bridge
PS- QuietShootr- that sig line is shiny.
just my opinions, but i don't subscribe to the "shorter stiffer" theories. maybe it is marginally more accurate, but i'll take velocity any day over an extra .1 or .2 MOA of accuracy for practical shooting that doesn't involve getting inside small vehicles. I'm running a 29" medium (not heavy) profile barrel WITH a 9" suppressor on the end and I don't have any problem hitting targets at respectable distances. (pics in the long range night shooting thread)
sure it's possible to shoot 1000 yrd with 18" bbl. it's possible with a 223. heck, my local range has 1000 yrd black powder matches.
if your goal is 1st round hits at unknown distance, you're seriously handicapping yourself in performance and adding noise. and the only positive is maneuverability. (which is admittedly more important for some jobs than others)
mil-dots are not nearly so easy to use as mil-hash type reticles. some great shooters like cluttered reticles, other great shooters like simple reticles. I think it boils down to how good your eyesight is, how you think, and what and how you like to shoot. But i don't know any good shooters that like dots. thus, you can find some really great deals on scopes with dot reticles on the used optics for sale forums.
optimal magnification depends on where and what and when you are shooting. moving targets, fast acquisition, lot of mirage = lower is better. shooting groups, very small targets, target identification, using mirage for wind calls = higher is better. so, ideally, a scope with a wide range of magnification is great.
BrigandTwoFour
07-05-12, 17:31
Nothing wrong with the 10PC, it's a fine gun by all accounts.
I have a Vortex 6.5-20x44PA on my Howa 1500. That gun has a 20" heavy barrel. it will eventually get bedded into a manners T2.
The mil dot system is pretty good, and widely understood. I would try to get a scope that has the reticle and adjustment turrets in matching measurements (mil/mil, moa/moa). Mine is a mil reticle and moa adjustments. It's workable, but it will get replaced eventually.
Take a good look at the SWFA Super Sniper series, they offer a lot of value for the money and come in mil/mil.
do your research on FFP vs SFP scopes. The new "hotness" is in FFP scopes with mil/mil adjustments. SWFA, Vortex, and Bushnell all have scopes that meet those specs with an affordable price tag.
Good luck
Gutshot John
07-05-12, 18:37
There is no price advantage with the Savage. Any of those guns are about the same price point.
Where Remmy has a significant advantage is the sheer amount of parts, accessories and customization possibilities.
That Savage trigger however is craptastic and is a deal breaker for me, YMMV.
if your goal is 1st round hits at unknown distance, you're seriously handicapping yourself in performance and adding noise. and the only positive is maneuverability. (which is admittedly more important for some jobs than others)
Can you expand on this a bit? I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. 1st round hits at unknown distance is primarily reliant on two things: Good Dope in relevant conditions and Distance Measuring skill. If you have good dope with an 18" barrel out to a given distance within the performance envelope and can accurately measure that distance...than a 1st round hit shouldn't be a problem. If you don't have those things than the barrel length doesn't make a bit of difference. In terms of velocity you're maybe losing 15-25 fps max for each inch of barrel length? So while there are obvious differences between a 26" barrel and an 18" barrel, inside of 600 yards the difference isn't going to be that different. From 600-1000 it's mostly a question of the quality of your dope.
mil-dots are not nearly so easy to use as mil-hash type reticles. I kind of agree but the statement is simplistic. Mil-dots are harder to use if you can see the mil-hash equally well. I prefer oval type mil-dots but I know a lot of good shooters that like true mil-dots just fine. One way or the other the mils system (whether dots, ovals or hashes) of estimating distance is the most versatile choice. This is what a lot of people mean when speaking about mil-dots, it's a generic appellation and could mean any of the three. But in general I do agree.
optimal magnification depends on where and what and when you are shooting. moving targets, fast acquisition, lot of mirage = lower is better. shooting groups, very small targets, target identification, using mirage for wind calls = higher is better. so, ideally, a scope with a wide range of magnification is great.
I agree...assuming you have an FFP optic.
I was in the same boat and after a good bit of research this is what I ended up with for a cheaper first long range setup.
Remington 700sps varmint 26 inch barrel in .308 $525.00 NIB off the M4C exchange.
Weaver Tactical 4-20 mil mil FFP scope $737.64
Leupold 15moa base $109.95
Seekins meduim rings $118.95
The stock sucks and the trigger is not horrible if you adjust it down all the way. The Weaver scope has good glass, but is a little short on elevation adjustment and needs a 15moa base to get out to 800 yards or so. With the base it has about 10 mil adjustment. A Bell and Carlson stock will run a little over $200 from from Stockys. I have plans to get one when I can actually shoot well enough to notice the difference. I have limited time at the range with it, but so far so good. If you want I can bring it to Tusco next class.
Stonebridge
07-05-12, 21:48
Yeah, if you could bring it to the next class, that'd be awesome. And if you feel like meeting up to go to this Savage/Vortex/Hornady thing with me, let me know.
One of the issues I'm dealing with is blank-slate-itis. Meaning, where a Savage accu-trigger might be "craptastic" to you by comparison, I have nothing to compare it against other than my old mil-surps and shotguns. Thus, the little accu-trigger testers at the gun counter feel pretty darn good to me.
So I guess my question is, without any modifications, drop-ins, trigger jobs, Timney's or what-have-you.... straight out of the box, brand new from the factory, who has the better trigger? Savage accu-trigger or a Remy 700?
My goal in this is not necessarily to buy the rifle I can add/change the most things on or has the most aftermarket support. That will be my next, "ultimate" rifle IF my "learner" rifle begins to limit me. Which may never happen.
-'b
Stonebridge
07-05-12, 22:07
Another question- I sort of like the idea of a detachable box magazine for the rifle. Wondered what issues, pros and cons there might be with such a setup or if it's a non-issue either way.
Thanks,
-'b
Yeah, if you could bring it to the next class, that'd be awesome. And if you feel like meeting up to go to this Savage/Vortex/Hornady thing with me, let me know.
One of the issues I'm dealing with is blank-slate-itis. Meaning, where a Savage accu-trigger might be "craptastic" to you by comparison, I have nothing to compare it against other than my old mil-surps and shotguns. Thus, the little accu-trigger testers at the gun counter feel pretty darn good to me.
So I guess my question is, without any modifications, drop-ins, trigger jobs, Timney's or what-have-you.... straight out of the box, brand new from the factory, who has the better trigger? Savage accu-trigger or a Remy 700?
My goal in this is not necessarily to buy the rifle I can add/change the most things on or has the most aftermarket support. That will be my next, "ultimate" rifle IF my "learner" rifle begins to limit me. Which may never happen.
-'b
Will do. Will talk to you also about the S/V/H. I really do not think you could go wrong with the Savage and the accu-trigger. I have heard good things about the 10fp. With my limited knowledge my Remington 700 with X-mark pro seems pretty darn good at the lightest adjustment. As set from the factory it was way, way to heavy.
Both the triggers are ok. I would not worry about it right off the bat.
On the short barrel thing: If you are going to be shooting factory ammo, specificly Gold medal match, you will give up little to nothing going 18" to 20". If you plan to handload heavier bullets get a little longer barrel.
So here's a quick example. I'll try to do something more thorough when not on my iPhone.
Assume a 26" 308 168g has muzzle velocity of 2750 fps. At 800yrd it has 209" of drop. Now you get your hacksaw out. I'll use your numbers and split the difference. 20 fps x 8" is -160 fps. Your 18" barrel now had a mv of 2590 fps and 244" of drop. That means one is shooting 35" flatter and needs 9" less wind given a full value 10mph wind.
So basically velocity is giving you more margin for error if your range estimatmaid off or your wind call is off even if your dope is perfect.
More later...
Gutshot John
07-06-12, 01:03
One of the issues I'm dealing with is blank-slate-itis. Meaning, where a Savage accu-trigger might be "craptastic" to you by comparison, I have nothing to compare it against other than my old mil-surps and shotguns. Thus, the little accu-trigger testers at the gun counter feel pretty darn good to me.
A fair comment, I'll see if I can describe it. Mind you this description may be flawed as it's clear in my mind but it might not make it clear in yours.
I think it's fair to say that the factory adjusted trigger from Remington is fairly heavy. That's not to say it's the end of the world but it won't match a well-tuned custom built 700. That said I've owned two SPSs and shot several more and even if they were heavy they broke as they should have, minimal (if any) take-up and a clean snap. I can always find where I put my fingertip. Likewise the trigger feel is consistent across a range of firearms, not to that they're identical but when you get a good clean snap on a 700, it's similar to a good clean snap on another type of rifle.
The Accu-trigger is only similar to the accu-trigger, more to the point i don't like that little piece of metal pressing into my finger, it's not a safety, I don't see what the point is. I guess it's trying to mimic take-up but it just feels really freaking weird. Likewise it impedes or makes more difficult finding the proper place for the finger placement. Then there is just the chintzy manufacturing detail of Savage which I dont like.
Finally when its time to buy up to a higher end precision bolt action gun, it's somewhat likely to be based on the 700. It's very very unlikely to be based on the Savage.
Wolf Spyder
07-06-12, 01:57
My completely stock 1976 Remington 700 in 22-250 prints three shot groups about the size of my thumb nail at 200 yards. Roughly 3/4 of an inch to 1 inch or so...
Identified the important part in red.
Well, QuietShooter, I'll you give that. The older Remington triggers "feel" much better than the newer X-Mark Pro's that they are offering now. How ever, my brother just purchased a brand new Remington 700 SPS-T AAC with the X-Mark Pro trigger and they are not bad as a starting trigger. It takes a just few seconds to lighten the trigger pull on the newer triggers. With the older style Remington triggers you have to pull the rifle apart and make your adjustments, and then re-assemble the rifle to test the safety, making sure the trigger will not discharge when squeezed, bumped, or knocked. It takes time to get it just right.
As I said, my brother's Remington 700 SPS-T AAC took just seconds and was "almost" as nice as the trigger on my 1976 Remington. I am a virtual novice compared to the guys and gals on here, but I am a Grand Master compared to the guys and family members I normally shoot with. My hand-me-down 1976 Remington's trigger was smooth but heavy when I first got it. My father didn't mess with it at all, it still the factory glue on it. Now, it is very light with what feels like absolutely no pre-travel or creep, breaks clean and crisp with almost no post travel. I was amazed, it only took about an hour of fiddling with it, and tinkering... it is solid. Passes all the safety checks, butt-stock knocks, trigger-guard bumps, and rough bolt closures... then after a few dabs of finger nail polish, over the adjustment screws, it was done. I love this thing. For a stock trigger, it is the smoothest, cleanest, factory trigger I have ever used. Granted there are after-market triggers that are easier to adjust and can be adjusted to a light trigger pull, but why spend the money?
Taking a tangent from the main thread, I'd like to hear your opinions on scopes.
-'bridge
PS- QuietShootr- that sig line is shiny.
I am looking at buying a new Remington like my brother's Remington 700 SPS-T AAC ($500). I plan to use either a B&C Tactical Medalist Style 3 or a Manners MCS T4 both come in Tan and both will accept the Badger Ordnance DBM kit.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/REMINGTON700LIGHTTACTICALSTOCKbyBELLandCARLSON137-000-019WB.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/MannersMCST4Remington700SAgreen.jpg
As far as budget scopes go the Bushnell Tactical Elite series are nice and so are the Weaver Tactical series. I am leaning very hard towards the Weaver Tactical. My brother has a Weaver on his rifle and really likes it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/WeaverTactical4-20x5030mmtubesidefocusFFP.jpg
Just my opinions, but I don't subscribe to the "shorter stiffer" theories.
I have seen high speed footage of different barrels and the barrel "whip" effect... I believe that thicker, stiffer barrels are better, hands down. Since shorter thick barrels are more stiff than longer thick barrels... I believe a 20" or 22" barrel is better than a 26" barrel of the same thickness as far as less barrel whip... but there again I am a novice compared to many of you guys and gals on this forum.
I was in the same boat and after a good bit of research...
I ended up with this;
Remington 700 SPS-V 26 inch heavy barrel in .308 for $525.00 NIB
Weaver Tactical 4-20 mil / mil FFP scope for $737.64
Leupold 15 MOA base for $109.95
Seekins medium rings for $118.95
I, personally, think this is a great set-up.
So I guess my question is, without any modifications, straight out of the box, brand new from the factory, who has the better trigger? Savage accu-trigger or a Remy 700?
My goal in this is not necessarily to buy the rifle I can add/change the most things on or has the most aftermarket support. That will be my next, "ultimate" rifle IF my "learner" rifle begins to limit me. Which may never happen.
-'b
I have used both the Savage "Accu-Trigger" and the Remington "X-Mark Pro" and both are fine for a starter rifle. I think what you are missing about this whole exercise is that a Remington, with all the after-market support, can grow with you. As you get better, you can "mod" the Remington with a better stock, better trigger, detachable box magazine kit... the list is almost end-less. Each up grade might be a couple hundred bucks, but it beats buying a whole new rifle and then spending hundreds or thousands on top of that.
Another question- I sort of like the idea of a detachable box magazine for the rifle. Wondered what issues, pros and cons there might be with such a setup or if it's a non-issue either way.
Thanks,
-'b
As every one has said there is a lot more options out there for the Remington platform. Stocky's is offering the Badger Ordnance new, military grade, M5 "Stealth DM" DBM kit for ~ $200 right now.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/StockysM5StealthDBMKit.jpg
I have seen high speed footage of different barrels and the barrel "whip" effect... I believe that thicker, stiffer barrels are better, hands down. Since shorter thick barrels are more stiff than longer thick barrels... I believe a 20" or 22" barrel is better than a 26" barrel of the same thickness as far as less barrel whip... but there again I am a novice compared to many of you guys and gals on this forum.
yep, seen the footage. no disagreement that shorter barrels are stiffer and have less whip. just haven't seen it translate to accuracy. let me put it this way, go to any 1000 yard f-class or tactical/practical/sniper match, and if you see a barrel shorter than 20", I pretty much guarantee it won't be winning the match (and I'll bet money it's in the bottom half of finishers)
but, don't let me discourage you from trying one. i wouldn't make it my first long range gun though.
QuietShootr
07-06-12, 07:35
Well, QuietShooter, I'll you give that. The older Remington triggers "feel" much better than the newer X-Mark Pro's that they are offering now. How ever, my brother just purchased a brand new Remington 700 SPS-T AAC with the X-Mark Pro trigger and they are not bad as a starting trigger. It takes a just few seconds to lighten the trigger pull on the newer triggers. With the older style Remington triggers you have to pull the rifle apart and make your adjustments, and then re-assemble the rifle to test the safety, making sure the trigger will not discharge when squeezed, bumped, or knocked. It takes time to get it just right.
Wasn't the trigger I was talking about. A trigger can be replaced with a $100 bill and a few minutes of work. The older 700s are much better guns than the ones built in the last 5-8 years. The barrels are far better, and the general build quality is much higher in the older guns.
Stonebridge
07-06-12, 07:49
I think what you are missing about this whole exercise is that a Remington, with all the after-market support, can grow with you. As you get better, you can "mod" the Remington with a better stock, better trigger, detachable box magazine kit... the list is almost end-less. Each up grade might be a couple hundred bucks, but it beats buying a whole new rifle and then spending hundreds or thousands on top of that.
That's a fair point. I guess my preconceived notion was that the Remy came with a trigger you'd have to immediately replace whereas the Savage you could play with on your own. This is why I started the thread- I know there's a lot that I don't know.
If my buddy 1911Pro will let me shoot his Remy at our next class, I'll be able to compare it to the Savage and that should be pretty telling.
-'b
I am looking at buying a new Remington like my brother's Remington 700 SPS-T AAC ($500). I plan to use either a B&C Tactical Medalist Style 3 or a Manners MCS T4 both come in Tan and both will accept the Badger Ordnance DBM kit.
the manners is worth the extra money if you're going to use the gun a lot, but they have a ridiculous wait time right now. I got to hang out in their factory for a while back in March. Kinda cool, but wow... respiratory nightmare.
some gratuitous pics off bottom metal. Surgeon DBM on the tan rifle. Badger on the darker camo rifle. Both are mcmillan A5 stocks. AICS 10 rnd mags on the tan one, AI AW 10 rnd mags on the darker one. i like the guard around the surgeon.
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/dbmb.jpg
http://precisionmultigun.com/pics/dbmc.jpg
Stonebridge
07-06-12, 10:29
Ok, so you guys are raising all kinds of new questions in my mind. To me, that's a good thing and I'm increasingly glad I asked.
Is there a version of the 700 that comes from the factory with a detachable box magazine or is that only available by adding the aforementioned kits?
I really do want the detachable magazine, not because I think I'll be in any extended sniper duels (local SWAT still doesn't have me on speed-dial) but for transporting purposes I can have an empty rifle and loaded magazines and not have to worry about fishing for loose shells.
-'b
Tac ops only saw a 30 FPS drop going from the box velocity on gmm 168 to 18". 2630 from 2650. No velocity loss to 20". Now that is a custom barrel, but unless you are going to load 175s with really slow hot charges your not going to gain much. Also with a 300 wm they saw NO velocity loss going from 26" to 22". None. stock rifle. With GMM. I believe Lilja used to have simular results on there page, but I cant find it, so I could be wrong.
The reason in my mind you don't see long barrels often in F-class is that most of us are loading heavy for caliber VLD bullets as fast as we can accurately. Most of the loads I here about are way over max, loaded long, and pushing the very envelope of the cartridge. By the way, there is a guy here who likes to show up with a 20" barreled Gap, bet us all, and leave pretty regularly. Is it the norm? No. But he's never out of the top 3. We also manly shoot at 600 yards. But as long as you know your drop and windage you should be good to go. Its not going to change.
Tac ops only saw a 30 FPS drop going from the box velocity on gmm 168 to 18". 2630 from 2650. No velocity loss to 20". Now that is a custom barrel, but unless you are going to load 175s with really slow hot charges your not going to gain much. Also with a 300 wm they saw NO velocity loss going from 26" to 22". None. stock rifle. With GMM. I believe Lilja used to have simular results on there page, but I cant find it, so I could be wrong.
+1
I can attestto the accuracy of tac ops and their short barreled rifles.
FWIW, Todd Hodnett mentioned in the Magpul DVD's that in his experience, which is pretty extensive, a 20" barrel (on a bolt gun) was the absolute best compromise between velocity and manueverability across numerous platforms including .338, .300wm, .308, ect....
If he says that 20" will work (out to a mile even!) then I'm one that's going to listen. I'm a novice in LR shooting, but I subscribe to the school of thought to know your dope and you'll be just fine....you'll have to know your dope regardless.
I know there's a stigma with the Magpul DVD's, but the Precision DVD is the one set that I would say is worth buying and watching multiple times! You won't be disappointed.
Gutshot John
07-06-12, 15:06
While I don't see the need for a 26"+ barrel, I think taliv makes some good points as to why he made his choice the way he did. I don't necessarily agree as 1st round hits remain dependent on range estimation and dope.
That said, for an entry level .308, I think 20" remains a very practical choice. Think of it like learning photography using a 50mm wide-angle. You'll learn a lot using it. When you get to the point of building your high-end custom piece, then you can start deciding about longer barrels.
almost all the barrels i see in F-class are long.
While I don't often agree with chuck hawks, he has done a nice job of compiling the data from others on this page http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_barrel.htm (start about 2/3rd of the way down at the "Velocity loss" section.
here's an article by John Whidden where he says his 32" 308win rifle was one of the best shooting he ever had. http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek059.html
Barrels are usually 30” or longer to keep the bullet supersonic to 1000.
look up the rifles used by the US Palma team. if there was no advantage, why would they have such long barrels? I mean, they've been shooting 800, 900, and 1000 yrd matches since 1876! surely you'd think in 136 years of international competition, they would have figured out to cut those barrels back to 18". geez, it's been 12 years since that tac ops SWAT article, and the palma guys are still using 30"+ barrels...
If he says that 20" will work (out to a mile even!) then I'm one that's going to listen. I'm a novice in LR shooting, but I subscribe to the school of thought to know your dope and you'll be just fine....you'll have to know your dope regardless.
rock on, man. pick an "authority", appeal to it, and exclude all other sources of data. i must be on the interwebs
Stonebridge
07-06-12, 16:25
As far as barrel length is concerned, this will not be a match/competition rifle by any means and I doubt I'll be handloading for it anytime soon. This will be the rifle that rides in my ruck and gives me the ability to reach every corner of my property in NY. I may attend a match or two for the practice but it's not going to be the purpose of this gun. I think 18" or 20" will be about right and anything I give up in velocity will be worth the trade.
almost all the barrels i see in F-class are long.
While I don't often agree with chuck hawks, he has done a nice job of compiling the data from others on this page http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_barrel.htm (start about 2/3rd of the way down at the "Velocity loss" section.
here's an article by John Whidden where he says his 32" 308win rifle was one of the best shooting he ever had. http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek059.html
look up the rifles used by the US Palma team. if there was no advantage, why would they have such long barrels? I mean, they've been shooting 800, 900, and 1000 yrd matches since 1876! surely you'd think in 136 years of international competition, they would have figured out to cut those barrels back to 18". geez, it's been 12 years since that tac ops SWAT article, and the palma guys are still using 30"+ barrels...
rock on, man. pick an "authority", appeal to it, and exclude all other sources of data. i must be on the interwebs
I think you might be gettin yer panties in a wad...seriously man.
For every one expert with an opinion, there's another with a differing opinion...so yeah, you do have to pick one that makes sense to "YOU" and run with it...and what makes sense to me may not make sense to YOU due to differing "mission requirements".
I'm not mil, but I do hunt, and my "mission" is humping a rifle through the woods. Manueverability and weight becomes more critical in this role...hence the part of my post that you chose not to read, or comprehend...
FWIW, Todd Hodnett mentioned in the Magpul DVD's that in his experience, which is pretty extensive, a 20" barrel (on a bolt gun) was the absolute best compromise between velocity and manueverability across numerous platforms including .338, .300wm, .308, ect....
As for the OP, it didn't sound to me like he was trying to get into competitions shooting half MOA @ 1K+, so please tell me why he would need to wring out the extra 100 or so fps with a barrel that is more suited to benchrest/competitions?
Again, it all comes down to knowing your dope. Regardless of the platform.
ETA: I'm sure you know your stuff, and I appreciate your insights from an informational standpoint, but please don't insult my intelligence by rolling me into the group of shooters that wet themselves watching shooting videos.
I think the biggest advantage to the long barrels in Palma is the sight radius. They have to run metalic sights remember. And I have a 26" barrel on my F-class rig. When she gets a new barrel I'll probably go 24" and a MTU countor. But I shoot 300 wm.
What the hell is he shooting to a mile with a 20" barrel? ETA- Todd Hodnett. Not the Op.
If my buddy 1911Pro will let me shoot his Remy at our next class, I'll be able to compare it to the Savage and that should be pretty telling.
-'b
I will gladly.:D
AR15barrels
07-06-12, 17:18
rock on, man. pick an "authority", appeal to it, and exclude all other sources of data. i must be on the interwebs
haha, who needs first hand experience when someone else will keep telling you what you want to hear?
I'll keep chambering 26" and 28" barrels on my midrange guns thank you very much...
Thats it! Shoot the gun and figure what you like. If you like the remmy, savage, hell mosin nagant get it. A 20" barrel will not limit you at 1000 yards. Yet. If you deside to do the long range thing you'll be changing the barrel eventually anyways. If its going to be used dual purpose shorter is ok. If just a square range longer may give you a speed increase, and possibly a better balance. It will also reduce muzzle blast.
I hope your range session with the remmy and savage both go well, allowing you to figure out what you like.
no problem, man. best of luck with whatever you choose. come to TN sometime and I'll buy you a drink.
I wasn't suggesting anyone else was interested in competition. But you don't have to participate to learn from it.
I did read your post. You might like some of these competitions. It ain't f-class. This is one of my favorites: http://steelsafari.com/
two day-long field stages each involving movement through approximately 3 miles of rugged desert terrain;
each field stage will have approximately 10 shooting stations;
each shooting station will have 6 target opportunities to locate, range, and engage targets at each station under a time limit
movement between stations during each field state will not be timed; however, shooters are encouraged to move briskly to avoid procedural penalties if passed
local altitude of 4000'
to carry gear used during the courses of fire
to engage rifle targets from 200 to 700 yards (few engagements outside this range may be required)
Standard targets sizes are 6"x12" or 12"x12", but some vary.
fantastic geographic features for a hike-and-shoot match
http://mammothsniperchallenge.com/ This is a three day match
If you're looking for an extra challenge, this is it. Competitors in the Tough Man Team Division will compete on the same stages as the Regular Team Division competitors but will be subject to these additional rules:
Must walk the the entire match. Estimated distances are between 1.5 and 3.5 miles between stages and you will be given 20 minutes per mile to cover the distance.
Must carry all gear needed to complete the stages for the day. This includes everything you need to compete including weapons, ammunition, food, water, maintenance items, etc.
Can not ask for anything from another competitor or ask for any help during the course of the match.
Must use a secondary weapon chambered in .223 or .308.
If the team is unable to continue for any reason they can move into the Regular Team Division for the remainder of the match.
it's a lot of fun. you might like it. and yeah, most of those guys are humping long barreled 17+ lb guns through the NM high desert and hills of KY.
but the general point I was making above was that it's not about 5" groups at 1k. It's that knowing your dope is necessary, but not sufficient for getting hits. if you err in estimating the distance or wind because you are in a hurry and milling targets or having to laze them, flatter trajectories are more forgiving. that's pretty simple. i honestly didn't expect it to be controversial
Stonebridge
07-06-12, 17:48
@Taliv- holy cow man! Those competitions sound pretty damn sweet. I run Warrior Dash and the thought of combining that with long range shooting would be epic.
I set up jungle runs for some of my students and have the perfect property here in Ohio for that kind of challenge. Ridges, creeks, steep hills, dense woods.... even an old farm house where it'd be no problem to shoot out of the 2nd story windows. Setting up steel around the property would be pretty easy. That's the kind of stuff I want this rifle to do.
I'm starting to reevaluate my criteria based on all the information you guys are providing.
Is there a detachable box magazine option available for the Remy from the factory or only as an add-on kit?
Is the Accu-stock worth having?
I'd like to keep the weight down some. I used to play with Mosins and was lugging around a 14 pounder with a barrel long enough to double as a vaulting pole. It just wasn't handy.
I guess if I could find a good used 700 I might lean more in that direction and "grow" with the rifle as I advance.
-'b
That comp sounds like a blast. That would just be a great way to spend a weekend.
I understand the quest for more fogiveness is range estimation. That is the main reason I shoot 300 wm.
hey if you want EPIC...
http://competition-dynamics.com/24-hour-sniper-adventure-challenge-2012/
This event is an adventure race involving: land navigation; practical shooting with long-range rifle, carbine, and pistols; fieldcraft; problem solving; and other related tasks.
Two-man teams will be required to navigate at least 30 miles on foot to complete the course. Along the way, there will be a series of tasks to accomplish to gain additional points. These tasks may include: shooting problems with long-range rifle, carbine, and pistols; problem-solving; physical challenges; fieldcraft; communication; target recognition; memory; and other tasks.
Teams must carry all the gear they use to complete land navigation and all tasks, though it may be abandoned at any time. Teams must carry one long-range rifle, one carbine, and two pistols for the entire course. Refer to the Required Gear List for items required for all teams/competitors. All other gear is left to the discretion of the team based on the task briefing. This information will be posted to this web site far in advance of the match date.
if you are in ohio, do yourself a big favor and go see Tom Sarver. http://thundervalleyprecision.com/
he runs a "headhunter" match that is awesome. 20 targets, one shot each. all targets are 6"x9" reactive steel heads. mega fun and very relaxed. they also shoot long range a lot (mile and beyond). beautiful piece of property. really a great time. i try to get up there once / year or so.
Taliv,
I see what you're saying about velocity, trajectory, ect. and I know that humping around a 20lb weapon is something that is done by guys around the world pretty much every day. I don't disagree on any of your points. IMO, I want to try to pick the best tool for the job, and if I plan to shoot 1k+, a .308 wouldn't be the platform I want for that. Like we've stated, it can be done, but a .300wm/.338 would be much "easier".
In fact, for what I really want out of the .308 platform, I would (and will eventually) be adequately served with a 16" .308 AR platform. But that's just me and my "perceived needs". If I ever get into longer range shooting (1k+), then I will most likely get into a .300wm bolt gun.
Oh, and if I ever do get out to TN, some shooting and a beer will definitely be in order ;)
Btw, those matches look frickin awesome! That first one really appeals to me with the ranges that the course goes out to. I'll have to keep it in mind once I get my .308 AR :)
Wolf Spyder
07-06-12, 22:13
I'm starting to reevaluate my criteria based on all the information you guys are providing. Is there a detachable box magazine option available for the Remy from the factory or only as an add-on kit?
I guess if I could find a good used 700 I might lean more in that direction and "grow" with the rifle as I advance.
-'b
Remington offers;
Remington 700 LTR "Urban Sniper Rifle"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/Model700USR.jpg
Remington 700 M24 "XP"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/700-XP.jpg
Both of these are on the Military/Defense side of Remington, and both are costly. I could not find one on the LEO side but you can call Remington and order almost anything you want. As far as regular Remington bolt-action rifles... they do not offer a DBM set-up.
http://www.remington.com/
http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/
http://www.remingtonle.com/
This is a good thread and I stumbled on it a couple weeks ago when I was also thinking about getting my first bolt gun. I enjoy my AR's and love shooting my .22 rifles, those old Remingtons are almost like an addiction for me. So, I figured it was time I dipped into the "grown up" bolt action pool.
This thread was one of several I read more than a couple times while doing my research. I'm gonna use the rifle for shooting off a bench, tripod and prob even take hunting. Don't do much of anything other than off a bench at the local 100yd range right now, but we are actively looking to buy some acreage so that will change in the future.
I'm a proponent of cry once and get it over with. FAR too many times in the past when I was younger I bought something hastily, or I really didn't want, but "it would do for now" and lived with regret until I finally broke down and got what I wanted in the first place, and lost money in doing so. I don't do that anymore if I can help it.
I ended up going with the below:
Remington 700 AAC-SD (.308, 20"bbl, 1x10 twist)
Seekins 20MOA base
Seekins 30mm Low rings
SS 5-20 x 50 FFP/mil-mil scope (NIB from Hide member)
**Manners T3 with mini-chassis**
I expect the scope and rings to be here this week. I know going in that the stock stock is junk, so I've been narrowing down and think right now I'm gonna go with a Manners T3 with their mini-chassis.
When it's all said and done, I'll have more money in it that I wanted to, but it should be a SOLID rifle that will last me a long time and by all indications I have seen from others, should be a darn good shooter too.
....
Stonebridge
07-08-12, 13:44
@Wolf Spyder - Thanks so much for posting those. I really appreciate it.
I'm really glad I asked all you guys for advice. As much as I think I'd be well served with the Savage platform, I'm increasingly seeing the light of being able to "grow" with the platform as I could with th e Remy. I just wish the DBM were available on a less expensive variant.
I started this thread acknowledging I had a preconceived notion about what I wanted. It's really great to hear every side of the story without people screaming at me or each other. I think that's what has me rethinking my needs now. Thanks to all.
I'm scanning the interwebs for used 700s now and can't wait to get to try both platforms. That should be pretty telling.
Much obliged,
-'bridge
lots of good info in this thread, been looking for a .308 myself
BrigandTwoFour
07-08-12, 23:44
@Wolf Spyder - Thanks so much for posting those. I really appreciate it.
I'm really glad I asked all you guys for advice. As much as I think I'd be well served with the Savage platform, I'm increasingly seeing the light of being able to "grow" with the platform as I could with th e Remy. I just wish the DBM were available on a less expensive variant.
I started this thread acknowledging I had a preconceived notion about what I wanted. It's really great to hear every side of the story without people screaming at me or each other. I think that's what has me rethinking my needs now. Thanks to all.
I'm scanning the interwebs for used 700s now and can't wait to get to try both platforms. That should be pretty telling.
Much obliged,
-'bridge
I, too, am a huge fan of the idea behind getting a rifle that can grow with you. And the fact that the 700 has near infinite options for just about anything falls into that category. But that's not the whole picture, and I don't think you should discount the others just for that fact.
I would add just a few things to consider when it comes to accessories.
1. Yes, the 700 has a stupid amount of variety in everything from stocks, scope mounts, triggers, and gunsmith work. But if you do enough research, you find that the best in those categories tend to fall to specific companies. Those companies, usually, also make the same parts for the other rifles you were considering.
- CDI makes bottom metal for 700, Tikka, Savage, and the Howa
- Timney makes triggers for 700, Howa, and Savage (Tikka doesn't need it)
- Manners makes stocks for all of them, and inlets for CDI bottom metal
- XLR industries custom fits their chassis to any of them (and skips the need for bottom metal0
- Take your pick of reputable scope mount makers. Seekins, Larue, EGW, Ken Farrell, etc...
You get the point....
2. It is great advantage that the 700 platform is well known and there are many many gunsmiths out there who can work on it when it comes time to rebarrel, true, or do other action work (like installing a side bolt release). Other companies already have some of those favorable features already installed. I've heard from more than one source that Tikkas (and Howas, to a degree) are almost trued from the factory and require very little work in that regard. If you were to factor in the cost of doing all that work into the final product of your rifle, you might have saved quite a bit of money by going with something that already included some of the stuff you wanted.
The main advantage of 700's is that they are a well known quantity. Most everyone knows how to work on them, sells parts for them, or has one themselves. Nothing wrong with that.
The other options you were looking at will work just as well, if not better in some cases, with the only real disadvantage of gunsmith availability. The top guys will work on just about anything, but they also charge more and have a long waiting list. Billy Joe Bob working out of his garage will be cheaper and faster, and can do the work for you, but you might not get the same result as one of the better known guys (who would have worked on any of the other rifles anyway).
I think I've sufficiently muddied the waters again.
Bottom line, as stated before, just pick one. They're all going to work well for you, and they can all have the potential to grow with you. Find one that meets your specs as far as profile and caliber and just go with it.
Wolf Spyder
07-09-12, 21:53
This is a snippet from Sniper Central on the Remington 700 "M24 SWS";
http://www.snipercentral.com/m24.htm
Thanks to Major John Mende (Ret.) who provided much of the development history of the M24 for this article.
The M24 Sniper's Weapon System (SWS) represents a return to bolt action sniper rifles by the US Army. As in the USMC M40A1, the M24 uses the Remington 700 action, although the receiver is a long action made for adaptation to take the .300 Winchester Magnum round. The stock (HS Precision) is made of a composite of Kevlar, graphite and fiberglass bound together with epoxy resins, and features an aluminum bedding block and adjustable butt plate. A detachable bipod (Harris) can be attached to the stocks fore-end. The metal finish is powder coated for extreme durability
The rifle had a very quick development cycle as the US Army had decided it wanted to get snipers back into the US Army and was in the process of developing the B4 identifier and the school to award it. There was a major short fall of M21's which was the standard sniper rifle at that point of time and the Army figured it would need 10,000 sniper rifles of which they didn't have nearly that many M21's. So a new sniper rifle was developed at the same time and it was done in a record 22 months. The Weapon System Matrix Manager for the M24 was Major John Mende and he explains that the long action actually had nothing to do with the ability to convert to a .300 Win Mag but was a product of that quick development time. The rifle was intended to be chambered in the .30-06 as the -06 was a type classified munition for the Army unlike the .300 WM at the time. They wanted to have a high power load for the .30-06 eventually developed. As development of the system was moving forward they discovered that there was not enough .30-06 ammo in a single lot in the Army's inventory to test and develop the system so they quickly changed to the 7.62x51mm NATO (308 Win) and left the action the same as there was not enough time for the manufacturers of the stock and floor-plate to make the change to short action. They also fully believed they would later do a product improvement update and convert all the M24's to .30-06. The fact that they could convert them to .300 Win Mag was an unexpected benefit to the SF groups and was never actually designed into the system.
The actual rifle requirements for accuracy were .35 MOA from a machine rest and according to Major John Mende (ret.) this accuracy had to be maintained to 10,000 rounds. He stated, "Interesting side note was there was a 10,000 round requirement for the barrel to maintain the original accuracy. In fact after some 10,000 round tests we discovered the accuracy improved. A few barrels were tested past 20,000 and accuracy never went below the original accuracy requirement." I would have to say that is very impressive! The US Army barrel life states 5000 rounds and that sounds like they are being conservative. Based off of the experience I have, the rifles do shoot quite well if the shooter does his part. Apparently there were several other rifle makers who said they could build a better rifle for the required price, but they were not interested once they heard it would be 10,000 rifles and that they would be required to provide maintenance on those rifles for at least 5 years and with an Army option for 2 additional procurements. Remington was able to do it.
This is the one that I have a lot of experience with. I have used the M24 SWS extensively while a sniper in the US Army National Guard and find the rifle to be of very good quality. The entire system as a whole is very functional. I do NOT like the fact that it has a long action (even if it is adaptable to .300 Win, which the Army has no plan of doing beyond the few Special Forces groups that have done so) it causes feeding problems with the M118 & M118LR (7.62x51mm) if the rounds are not pushed all the way to the rear of the magazine. Throughout all of my use of this system, I have consistently maintained 1 MOA with M118, which is saying a lot when all we use is M118 ammo. The M118LR (175gr BTHP) performs considerably better and shoots about .5 MOA in the M24. I whole-heartedly believe that we have one of the best sniping SYSTEMS in the world.
This is one of the reasons why I choose Remington over some of the other brands like Winchester, Howa, Savage, Mossberg & so on.
BrigandTwoFour
07-10-12, 00:37
This is a snippet from Sniper Central on the Remington 700 "M24 SWS";
http://www.snipercentral.com/m24.htm
This is one of the reasons why I choose Remington over some of the other brands like Winchester, Howa, Savage, Mossberg & so on.
Just to play the devil's advocate here...how does the M24 with all it's specialized work and storied past fit in with the concept of an entry level .308?
If we were going to talk about $4000 tactical rifles, well then we can bring up the M24 SWS rifles, Tac Ops, GAP, or Surgeon. But we're not talking about those rifles because they are beyond the scope of this discussion and way above the price point we were talking about.
Any rifle action of sufficient quality, when mounted with a barrel of sufficient quality, and work performed by a seasoned professional, will attain amazing accuracy numbers and round counts.
If the decision to pick up a Rem 700 SPS tac is based on a desire to participate in the heritage of military sniper rifles based on the same design, then that's great. Go for it.
But if the whole point is to just get started with a .308 that the OP can learn and grow with, then I stand by my original point. Any of the quality rifle makers will serve him well. It's just a matter of comparing stats and picking the right price.
Thats kind of apples to oranges on the m24. Yes its accurate. And according to the specs holds it for a very long time. The remington 700 SPS tactical or PSS the ops would be more lkely to purchuse however is not a custom rifle made to those specs. The closest would be a remington 5R(the M24 is avalible to civilians from what I have heard, but never een one, and if they are the cost HIGH) under any realistic budget.
Kind of like saying the corvette ZR1 is good, so hy not get colbalt.
Not really, but dont expect 10000 rond of .35 MOA outo your 700, unless its a M24.
Well might as well give my two cents. I was in your position not long ago. Personally this is what I did:
Found a barely used Remington 700 sps tactical, it has a short barrel with threading. I then bought a choate tactical stock, pretty cheap, heavy shooting platform and aluminum bedded. Good for a beginner stock. I got a slightly used vortex pst 6-24x, 20 moa base and bushnell tactical rings. All of that ran me around $1000. Then I bought an atlasworx bottom metal for mags when they were on sale. Had the bottom cut out by basspro for $75 and bottom metal installed. So that was all another $150. Shot it some and it was quite accurate. Then I got a yhm qd flashider and 7.62 suppressor. Very happy with it and so far very accurate with hand loads out to 500 yards.
I wouldn't funnel yourself into 223. It's fine for that range but who knows what you'll shoot down the road.
You just replace the barrel it's not a big deal. At that point you can probably go out an buy a really nice one even.
Thats kind of apples to oranges on the m24. Yes its accurate. And according to the specs holds it for a very long time. The remington 700 SPS tactical or PSS the ops would be more lkely to purchuse however is not a custom rifle made to those specs. The closest would be a remington 5R(the M24 is avalible to civilians from what I have heard, but never een one, and if they are the cost HIGH) under any realistic budget.
Kind of like saying the corvette ZR1 is good, so hy not get colbalt.
Not really, but dont expect 10000 rond of .35 MOA outo your 700, unless its a M24.
AR15barrels
07-10-12, 13:18
Not really, but dont expect 10000 rond of .35 MOA outo your 700, unless its a M24.
...and you mount it in a machine rest in a shooting tunnel. ;)
QuietShootr
07-10-12, 13:33
This is a snippet from Sniper Central on the Remington 700 "M24 SWS";
http://www.snipercentral.com/m24.htm
This is one of the reasons why I choose Remington over some of the other brands like Winchester, Howa, Savage, Mossberg & so on.
And if you think a factory Remington you can buy over the counter has anything in common with an M24-spec gun other than the name, you're seriously deluding yourself.
I want to make it clear that I am a fan of the reminton M24. It is one of the most accurate Sniper Weapons Systems in the world. It has a few issues, but the accuracy is there in spades. And yes, when you out grow a remington you can rebuild it to M24 specs, maybe better.
you can also rebuild a Savage or Howa. I now of a few custom Savages shooting bug holes at 100 yards and .5" groups at 200. But even when gaming, except benchrest, the limit of accuracy isn't the limiting factor. Its us, behind the gun. I hav beaten guys with better guns, and been beaten by guys with lesser guns. Hell theres a guy with a Wincheste 70 coyote that can beat me any day, and mostof the other guys too. Why? He can read the wind and knows everything about how it shoots.
My advise, get your gun. Get a log book. Go shoot it tell the bore is smooth. Record every single shot. Maybe take a class. Even a .75 MOA gun is going to behard to out shoot. Don't get caught up in the crap. Just get a good gun that you feel good behind and go do some shooting.
And tell us how it goes!
Stonebridge
07-10-12, 22:36
Sound advice, MOA. Thank you.
My advice:
Read what Taliv is saying... and hear it fully.
It's not until you get to shooting competition actively that you really find what works and what doesn't. The rest is just fluff.
AR15barrels
07-11-12, 14:02
My advice:
Read what Taliv is saying... and hear it fully.
It's not until you get to shooting competition actively that you really find what works and what doesn't. The rest is just fluff.
THIS!!!
I have a write-up on "how to choose a rifle" to get started shooting precision rifle competitions.
I recommend a good 308 such as a 700P or 5R.
http://www.caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=35
THEN after you wear out your first barrel, you WILL have a much better idea of what you want.
Just like choosing women, there is no magic rifle "type" that fits everyone...
I vote Tikka as well first.
After that I would tie Savage and Remington.
Wolf Spyder
07-11-12, 22:53
My point with the snippet from Sniper Central is that the Remington 700 has a "history" of being one of the best actions out there. That the greatest Sniper Rifles are based on the Remington 700 action. I have read many accounts that state the actions used in the Remington 700 Police and the Remington 700 Police LTR, as well as all the other Remington 700 models, are the very same actions used in the production of the Remington SPS-Tactical. That the only real difference is the stocks and barrels used in the different models.
AR15barrels
07-12-12, 01:13
My point with the snippet from Sniper Central is that the Remington 700 has a "history" of being one of the best actions out there. That the greatest Sniper Rifles are based on the Remington 700 action. I have read many accounts that state the actions used in the Remington 700 Police and the Remington 700 Police LTR, as well as all the other Remington 700 models, are the very same actions used in the production of the Remington SPS-Tactical. That the only real difference is the stocks and barrels used in the different models.
That's pretty much true.
The 5r barrels are significantly better than all the chromoly varmint barrels in my opinion.
The legit 700p also comes with an old style trigger that is significantly more "tunable" than the new x-marks that are on all the other guns.
Also, a legit 700P has a parkerized finish vs the crappy black oxide that's on the sps guns.
That being said, factory triggers should be thrown away and replaced with a timney... and the rifle should be cerakoted.
I'm leaning towards the Savage!
:lol:
AR15barrels
07-12-12, 11:56
I'm leaning towards the Savage!
:lol:
Rabble-rouser...
I'm leaning towards the Savage!
:lol: I always imagined you'd lean a little left. ;)
m1a_scoutguy
07-12-12, 23:50
I'll throw my 2 cents worth in !! They cost more than your "intended" Budget,,but hey maybe save up a extra week or 2,,LOL !! My buddy bought a Rem. 5R about a month ago (24 Inch BBL) & I have had mine only a few weeks and just one Range Trip. Anyways,,here is a Target my buddy shot with his 5R,,date & info are on the target !! He did this with just a 3x9 Nikon Scope !!!! That is a 5 shots group :D:D
http://www.snipercountrypx.com/c-836-700ss-r5-mil-spec.aspx Decent prices on them !! Probably find one on Gunbroker also !!
Huge fan of the Remmy 5R. Took my 300WM out to 1,400 with 208 AMAX bullets. Markm and I shot some half inch groups at 200 with it and determined it was a long range worthy load.
On my way to a mile. I was 4 for 8 first string then 3 for 6, last string went to shit. Been shooting 308's and finally got tired and fell apart.
For the over 1,000 yards, the Win Mag does shine. On my way to a mile.
I went with a Remington 700 Tactical from Scout Supply Co., they are in LaGrange TX. They offer a couple of pretty nice entry level packages.
I went with the SPS Tactical Stage 2 and I couldn't be happier. Russel Banks was really easy to talk to and deal with. Turn around time was less than 3 weeks, and that including Duracoating the barrelled action. When I got it home, I put it in a Bell and Carlson Type 3 stock, the one with the hook stock. Shooting 175gr SMK on top of Reloader 15, I have shot some great groups already. Yesterday I shot groups at 200 yards for the first time. I had one 3 shot group at 1.15" @ 200. I feel the only thing holding the rifle back is my ability.
http://scoutsupplycompany.com/
Check them out sometime.
Tim
whatever you chose, get out and shoot it! just saw ammoman has 308 fed gm match ammo for under $1/rnd delivered again.
Stonebridge
07-20-12, 17:28
Tomorrow I (hopefully) shoot the Remy and in two weeks I get a range day with Savage and Hornady. I stopped by my one of the many shops in the area to muddy the waters. Looked at some Remington packages next to some Savages. Really leaning toward the Remy although it means dropping the trigger and waiting on a DBM.
I explained my intended use (mostly a 500 yard gun, aftermarket support, etc.) to the guy behind the counter. He said "I have the perfect rifle for you!" He hands me the Ruger/Gunsite Scout rifle. To which I replied "Oh... wow... um... yeah, I hadn't thought of that...."
Really looking forward to some trigger time.
-'bridge
although it means dropping the trigger and waiting on a DBM. Oh the horror of it.
I explained my intended use (mostly a 500 yard gun, aftermarket support, etc.) to the guy behind the counter. He said "I have the perfect rifle for you!" He hands me the Ruger/Gunsite Scout rifle. To which I replied "Oh... wow... um... yeah, I hadn't thought of that...."
Ugh... Yes the puuurrrfect rifle, you should hop right on that one. Ruger is pushing a promo for dealers right now so everywhere you go the counter commandos are throwing ruger in your face.
Stonebridge
07-21-12, 07:42
although it means dropping the trigger and waiting on a DBM.
Oh the horror of it.
I recognize that. That's that sarcasm you hear so much about :D
You deserve a cookie Taliv. ;)
PM me your shipping address.
Stonebridge
07-21-12, 18:49
Really enjoyed shooting 1911pro's 700 today. It's certainly far more accurate than my limited skill can take advantage of. Having only old three-line milsurps and slug guns to compare it with, I was pleasantly surprised at the low recoil of the .308. Looking forward to shooting the Savage for comparison.
-'bridge
I was pleasantly surprised at the low recoil of the .308. If you liked that, go shoot a 6.5 creedmoor.
The only thing you'll like more than the low recoil is the cheap and available match-grade factory ammo.
As for trying the savage... When I was a kid, I didn't need to actually eat shit, just to see what it tasted like. I just took people's word for it. :)
Stonebridge
07-22-12, 00:27
Hey, if a rifle company is willing to come to my little backwater and bring optics and free Hornady ammo, I'm going to take them up on the offer regardless if their product has the inherent accuracy of a potato cannon launching scratch-and-dent Campbell's soup cans :D
AR15barrels
07-22-12, 04:56
When I was a kid, I didn't need to actually eat shit, just to see what it tasted like. I just took people's word for it. :)
haha, so true...
Shoot the Savage. I'm all for shooting all the guns you can before buying. You may find its perfect for you. And I doubt it will shoot significantly worse that a Rem 700. I have owned savage. I am not a fan. The triggers are love it or hate it. I don't like the stocks either. That is all subjective tho. I seem em win enough locally to know they can be turned into freaking lasers. Not that a Remmy can't...
I can't wait to here how it shoots since you are a unbiased novice.
I can't wait to here how it shoots since you are a unbiased novice. Why can't you wait?
Their accuracy has never been in question. Has it? Maybe by idiots... but those who know have never said "eh those savages shoot like shotguns *spit* *ding*"
Even if you overlook the nasty bolt throw of the savage, it's a question of sustained reliability. The savage doesn't have it. Those are the facts. Buy a savage and a remington 308 on the same day. Put 10,000 rnds through each... and tell me how the action has held up afterward.
Granted, the vast majority of vocal pro-savage owners won't put 10,000rnds through ANYTHING in their lifetimes... so it's probably a mute point. Just like the guys that talk up walther p22's. They'd know that if they ever put 10,000rnds through one, it's a piece of shit. That's if they get to 10,000rnds without the slide hitting them in the face. As me how I know... twice.
Orkan, you are right about the Savage bolt throw and it just always felt sloppy and kinda flimsy or fragile when l worked the bolt. When l work the bolt on my rems it feels smooth and alot more solid. Once l discovered Tikka l never really looked back in terms of a basic hunting rifle l dont plan on messing with- put on a scope and done. l would still get a Rem if l even remotely thought l would want to modify anything about.
The only real reason l can see to get a Savage is if you plan on rebarelling and want to do it yourself. Or hell, who knows maybe you'll love the Savage, they do usually shoot pretty good, mine does- l just dont really use it much, its role got replaced by the Tika.
Or hell, who knows maybe you'll love the Savage Yeah... kind of like 2-girls 1-cup. It wasn't until I watched that video that I learned there are people that really like shit. :D
Yeah... kind of like 2-girls 1-cup. It wasn't until I watched that video that I learned there are people that really like shit. :D
Pretty funny stuff right there.
I'm in the same boat as the OP, seems the best starting point is a stock Remington 700 SPS Varmint with some decent glass and upgrade as necessary to fullfil desired role/goal.
AR15barrels
07-24-12, 17:06
Granted, the vast majority of vocal pro-savage owners won't put 10,000rnds through ANYTHING in their lifetimes... so it's probably a mute point.
Arguing with them is still fun though...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ0gFbW7ASI
That was the funniest damn video I have ever seen. EVER.
THAT'S SAYS IT ALL.
Maybe I shouldf have said "Can't wait to see which you like better and what you like about which". Specificly the accutrigger, the bolt travel, the fit and finish. I'm trying to see why so many new shooters go Savage (in my neck of the woods at least).
Not trying to start shit at all, but what wears out on savage? I've never heard that one before? (that being said I had a very low round count savage 30-06 strip a action screw completely)
Do they use substandard steel? Bolt to soft? If you want please reply in a PM as to not derail the thread.
What DOESN'T wear out on them... would be a more appropriate question.
I've seen more savages behaving like the one in the above video than I care to remember.
Doesn't stop all the "hey I'm new to the long range shooting game" guys from going and buying them and then telling everyone else that "hey mine works great, you should buy one." They leave out the part that they've shot the piece of shit maybe a hundred times.
If the savage 10fp was half the price of a remington AAC edition, I would see the value in it. However, they end up being about the same price. Thus a savage has no value.
I have about 1,500 rounds through my Rem 5R. All it has done is getting smoother. Shoots .5 inch groups all day long. This gun is just getting broken in.
Stonebridge
07-26-12, 10:19
Orkan, MOA, et al... let's say I go with the 700 platform. Understanding that I want first and foremost for this to be a "practical" vs. a competition rifle (if that's a fair distinction) that really is going to be used in the 200 to 500 yard range probably 90% of the time, and ride with me over hill and dale in my Eberlestock ruck... what subspecies of 700 am I looking for and what do I need to change about it right out of the gate?
I guess that's why there's lingering doubt in my mind as far as the Savage vs. 700... how much stuff am I going to have to alter or replace to get it to fulfill its intended purpose?
Nearly all my regular shooting regimen is up-close-and-personal with handguns and sub-caliber rifles. I teach close quarters, ccw, and spend a decent amount of time each year in live fire shoot-houses and occasional IDPA stuff. With nearly every handgun I've run, the biggest improvement I've seen is the addition of a really great trigger. Will that be the first thing that needs to change on a stock 700?
Misguided or not, the Savage lets me play with the trigger; does the 700 allow that or do I have to pitch it for an aftermarket trigger right away?
I'm pretty much decided on a barrel of no longer than 20" and whatever I give up in velocity I'm more than comfortable with. I also do not want to get the rifle rebarreled anytime soon. What's the best compromise available as far as twist rate for the widest range of off-the-shelf bullets? Handloading for the rifle is a loooong way off and may never actually happen.
I guess I just want to know what the best tradeoff in attributes is for my intended purpose for the rifle and really don't want to end up throwing most of it away. What needs to change on it first?
Thanks in advance,
-'bridge
Orkan, MOA, et al... let's say I go with the 700 platform. Understanding that I want first and foremost for this to be a "practical" vs. a competition rifle (if that's a fair distinction) that really is going to be used in the 200 to 500 yard range probably 90% of the time, and ride with me over hill and dale in my Eberlestock ruck... what subspecies of 700 am I looking for and what do I need to change about it right out of the gate?
Is ths going to be a hunting gun or bull barrel tactical? Does weight matter?
I guess that's why there's lingering doubt in my mind as far as the Savage vs. 700... how much stuff am I going to have to alter or replace to get it to fulfill its intended purpose?
IMHO, the only thing you have to do is replace the trigger which if you get a Remmy with HS STOCK. You should have a HS PRECISION stock and Timney trigger, then you can shoot. You can live without bedding, do that when you can.
Nearly all my regular shooting regimen is up-close-and-personal with handguns and sub-caliber rifles. I teach close quarters, ccw, and spend a decent amount of time each year in live fire shoot-houses and occasional IDPA stuff. With nearly every handgun I've run, the biggest improvement I've seen is the addition of a really great trigger. Will that be the first thing that needs to change on a stock 700?
Stock and Trigger. If you buy a premium Remmy with upgraded stock ie 5R, just trigger.
Misguided or not, the Savage lets me play with the trigger; does the 700 allow that or do I have to pitch it for an aftermarket trigger right away?
Get the Timney, it's only $125.
I'm pretty much decided on a barrel of no longer than 20" and whatever I give up in velocity I'm more than comfortable with. I also do not want to get the rifle rebarreled anytime soon. What's the best compromise available as far as twist rate for the widest range of off-the-shelf bullets? Handloading for the rifle is a loooong way off and may never actually happen.
Get a 308 and shoot Federal gold match 168 and 175's. 175 for longer distance.
I guess I just want to know what the best tradeoff in attributes is for my intended purpose for the rifle and really don't want to end up throwing most of it away. What needs to change on it first?
Thanks in advance,
-'bridge
See my replies in body of text. . Don't know how to change color of text.
I went through this last year and with solid advisement from ths forum, I am very happy with my Rem700 5R. Upgraded stock and upgraded stainless barrel. Just add Timney and shoot.
If you are looking for a 20" gun, then a 20" 5R is a great choice. They run a 1:11.25 twist on them. Never saw one that wasn't accurate. Sometimes they can be hard to find. If that happens, then:
Get a remington 700 AAC edition.
20" tube with 1:10 twist barrel, and comes threaded. Lots of future options there.
Then, replace the stock with an HS at minimum, or with a manners if you can afford.
Then get it bedded by a competent smith.
Then replace the trigger with a Timney 510.
That is all you would ever have to do to that rifle until you wore out the tube.
As for ammo... shoot 175's. There is no reason to shoot 168's. Shooting different types of ammo will give you different trajectories and wind calls, causing you to confuse your brain. Pick a load, buy it by the case, and shoot it.
Stonebridge
07-26-12, 12:41
I saw a 700 with a 20" tube, threaded, for around $600 if memory serves. I would just guess if I upgraded the stock I'd want to wait until I was ready to upgrade to the DBM kit but correct me if I'm wrong.
How important is it to have a 15 or 20 moa rail? I notice a lot of guys with them- I'm assuming this is to keep from bottoming out the scope's elevation (?)
This gun will mostly be shot at the midpoint of its effective range in the field. Since I'll be carrying it all over I'd like to keep it relatively handy. It will only see a bench rarely and more often be shot off my pack or some field-improvised position/bipod off the deck. I'll eventually shoot it out of the 2nd floor windows of the old farmhouse on my one piece of Ohio property once I distribute steel around the acreage.
We do have quite a few bears on our other property in NY. Not to say I'd ever have the need to put one down but supposedly some of them are problem bears from the urban areas and the only luck I've ever had was bad so I wouldn't mind having some medicine with me up in high pasture. Supposedly there's been wolf sightings but I'm guessing people are seeing overfed coyotes. I've never hunted whitetail in NY but I suppose I could keep my options open.
So that's the purpose of the rifle- handy, all-around medicine that can be used for hunting steel, or varmints of two- or four-legged variety at unknown, mid-range distances from field expedient positions and hides inside structures. Not a benchrest rifle and hopefully not some unwieldy brick I've got to hump up and down the mountain.
-'b
The 700 you saw with a threaded muzzle wat probably a AAC Blackout. When your looking don't forget the LTR. Pretty much any heavy barreled remmy will shoot MOA or better. Try the trigger before you replace it. If your going to use it as a field gun you don't want a super light trigger. A crisp 3# is damned good, and cuts the risk of setting it off before your ready. Think cold, gloves, excited, what ever.
If you got, say a 700 SPS tac the things I would change would be the stock and maybe the trigger. I would put a 20MOA base on it, just because its cheaper to do it now than later and it gives you a little movement on your scope placement. The go shoot the crap out of it with HSM A max, FGMM, and get ready to start handloading. Its not very fun shooting cheap Mil surp and having groups the size of a tennis ball, and it gets expensive to shoot a match with FGMM.
Wolf Spyder
07-28-12, 03:35
Stonebridge,
If you are still looking for a budget rifle, you are looking for either one of these;
Remington 700 SPS Tactical
or the
Remington 700 SPS Tactical AAC SD
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/Remington700SPSTacticalAACSD.jpg
Both come in .308 and have a 20 inch barrel with the same Hogue stock. The only difference is the AAC SD has a thread protector on the very tip of the barrel. You can see it in the picture above.
Both rifles can be purchased from about $450.00 on sale to about $600.00. The stock is the weak link on the SPS line of Remington 700's. The factory trigger is ok for general shooting and plinking, or it can be replaced in minutes with the Timney trigger mentioned in another post for just over $100.00.
If it were me, I would buy a replacement stock and the Timney trigger, but all of that depends on how much money your going to spend.
Have fun.
MiamiSniper
07-28-12, 07:14
Tikka T3 is my go to rifle, 975 Yards 10 inch steel yesterday was easy, it shoots silly accurate and mine is bone stock other than my paint job
100 yard group factory American Eagle 168 OTM ammunition
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/FMSNIPER/IMG_0599.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/FMSNIPER/IMG_0614.jpg
cool paint job...
Never had a tikka, came close a couple time and just didn't pull the trigger. They can shoot, I've put a few rounds thru one, and they should not be overlooked if you can get past how ugly they are.:D
A couple of you mentioned "hs stock". Is that the brand (H-S Precision, I guess?) or some other acronym?
Sorry if a dumb question... I'm following this thread for the same pre-newbie reasons as the OP, and I'm not tracking on that term. Thanks.
ETA: I just read back over and noticed where Pappabear wrote "HS PRECISION" so now I get it. Disregard.
A couple of you mentioned "hs stock". Is that the brand (H-S Precision, I guess?) or some other acronym?
Sorry if a dumb question... I'm following this thread for the same pre-newbie reasons as the OP, and I'm not tracking on that term. Thanks.
ETA: I just read back over and noticed where Pappabear wrote "HS PRECISION" so now I get it. Disregard.
H-S Precision the company.
New question, though... looks like there are a crap ton of different HS stocks to choose from and they're all spendy. Considering the OP's purpose, which one are you guys (Pappabear, orkan, maybe others) thinking of when you recommended the HS stock?
New question, though... looks like there are a crap ton of different HS stocks to choose from and they're all spendy. Considering the OP's purpose, which one are you guys (Pappabear, orkan, maybe others) thinking of when you recommended the HS stock?
You can sometimes find "takeoffs," where people are replacing the HS stocks that come on factory guns with even more expensive options. You can save a good deal of money by watching the Equipment Exchanges on various sites for these "takeoffs."
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=6862/avs|Make~~Model_1=Remington__700/avs|Manufacturer_1=H-S%20PRECISION/Product/REMINGTON-700-POLICE-RIFLE-STOCK
There's one option.
If you can afford it, go with a Manners. Incredible stocks.
BrigandTwoFour
08-01-12, 22:16
Orkan,
Any opinion about Manners vs some of the chassis systems out there?
I've been going back and forth between a T2 and Roedale RCS II (this rifle is a Howa). End cost, the Manners will be more after bedding and CDI bottom metal- and it will probably be heavier. The RCS uses viper skins and ends up lighter.
To my limited knowledge, it would make more sense to go with the chassis and be done with it. But there's just something about a nice traditional looking rifle stock that keeps tugging at me.
look into manners "mini chassis"
manners stocks are also custom ordered. i could be wrong but i think you can spec up to something silly like 90% carbon fiber fill. believe me, you can get them lightweight. this is possible because manners stocks are actually a shell with fill, where others are just the fill, so manners can still maintain strength with lightweight fill.
BrigandTwoFour
08-01-12, 23:56
Mini chassis is only available for Rem 700 clones. They will custom inlet for just about everything else, but it will require a proper bedding job.
The decision to not have the Rem was a long drawn out one for me. The lack of goodies was a concern, but one I chose to look past since the important goodies were indeed available- just not in huge variety.
The chassis systems get heavy fast. They are good, but lots of other considerations.
For instance, a mcree turns into a popsicle in the winter. ... and even though they say you don't need to bed them, I end up doing it anyway. Nothing shoots like a properly bedded rifle... in any stock.
yeah, there's a good bit of debate about that but my new build is going into an XLR chassis and i'm having it bedded.
yeah, there's a good bit of debate about that Indeed there is. The debate seems to be from those that don't really know. Funny how that works eh?
I once did a test with my AICS chassis. I unbolted it and re-torqued 20 times, and test fired after each. I could identify 3 different and very specific points of impact. Sometimes when you torque down an AICS, the magazine gets sticky, and you can feel the pressure when you throw the bolt. I've NEVER had that happen with a properly bedded rifle.
I bedded the AICS and never had a single issue again.
BrigandTwoFour
08-02-12, 11:09
On the topic of bedding, do ya'll have any preferred people I can send it to who don't charge an arm and a leg?
There are a handful of smiths around Montana, but they seem to specialize in things other than rifle bedding. I've never done it, and don't have a cheap stock to practice on- the last thing I would want to do is a novice screw up on a $700 manners.
Travis at TS Custom in Miller, SD does most of my bed jobs. He's quite good. He's done a few hundred of them, and his work always looks good. He's not "world class" but he doesn't charge like he is either.
He does all my rifles and I haven't been dissappointed. He even did a couple ruger 77/22's for me. They are VERY difficult to bed, and he did a fantastic job.
He charges $125.
If you'd like to talk with him, PM me your info and I'll put you in touch.
If you'd like a top flight bed job, by one of the best, then get ahold of Chad Dixon at Long Rifles Inc in Sturgis SD. That man is fanatical and produces the best bed jobs I've ever seen. He actually re-inlets each stock. More expensive, but one of the best there is.
fail wagon
08-02-12, 12:37
My buddy picked up a savage M10 precision carbine in .308 Love that gun, it's an awesome shooter
My buddy picked up a savage M10 precision carbine in .308 Love that gun, it's an awesome shooter http://www.gregd.net/pics/funny/kill-with-fire.jpg
orkan...
Note the Savage Lover's Username. ;)
orkan...
Note the Savage Lover's Username. ;)
Eh, don't get worked up over it...check his post history and you'll see what I mean...
Stonebridge
08-02-12, 17:52
Someday I hope Orkan will come out of his shell, quit holding back, and tell us what he really thinks :D
Lucky Strike
08-03-12, 16:11
I went with a Tikka T3 because I figured I wouldn't have to worry about the trigger or barrel. Put it in a Manners MCS-T stock with CDI bottom metal. About $1200 into the rifle (well not counting optics)....shoots good and works well as an elk hunting/target gun. I don't see myself needing to do anything else to the gun other then barrel replacement when the stock one eventually gets worn out.
AR15barrels
08-03-12, 17:35
I went with a Tikka T3 because I figured I wouldn't have to worry about the trigger or barrel. Put it in a Manners MCS-T stock with CDI bottom metal. About $1200 into the rifle (well not counting optics)....shoots good and works well as an elk hunting/target gun. I don't see myself needing to do anything else to the gun other then barrel replacement when the stock one eventually gets worn out.
With the limited number of smiths that will work on Tikka's and the relatively low cost of the gun to begin with, just replace the barreled action when the barrel wears out...
AR15barrels
08-03-12, 17:37
check his post history and you'll see what I mean...
haha, another ot filler...
Thanks Guys! I've been lurking on this thread and ended up with a Rem AAC-SD Brakeout that is now sitting in a Manners T4A with the mini-chassis system. The stock is OD green and I think of it as my redneck Sako TRG! I know the TRG offers much more than my setup, but the ergonomics are a bit similar to my eyes.
Now I have to decide on optics. I am leaning toward the Vortex Razor HD 5-20x50 mounted on a 20 moa Seekins rail and rings. Any thoughts on the glass? I have ready access to 600 yard ranges with potential access to 1000.
I appreciate the time you all spend to put this wealth of information out to help new folks like me.
I haven't owned a razor for more than a year or so... so take what I'm telling you with that in mind. I had one of the first ones they produced, as well as another one about 6 months after that.
There are a couple things that I don't like about the vortex razor 5-20. Their quality control is lacking. There are still people popping up with crap on their reticles after a few shots. So, thing #1 would be quality control. This shouldn't be happening on a $2000 optic. This happens with their PST line, but those are waaay cheaper, so it's forgivable. Having it continually happen on a $2000 optic isn't forgivable.
The second thing is the elevation turret is obnoxiously tall and the clicks are mushy for only having 5 mils per revolution. Now I see that they have a 10-mil turret out, and I haven't tried one to see if the clicks are still mushy or too close together.
Were I you, I'd do one of 2 things...
1) Buy a vortex PST 6-24 mil/mil/ffp.
The elevation knob is only 5 mils per turn, but has zero stop and precise clicks. The windage knob has no zero stop and isn't windage stop either... so you can, and probably will get lost in that turret once or twice. This would be a good experience for you to have anyway... so you realize how important those features are on a scope. The eyebox is pretty forgiving for a scope that cheap (under $1000) and the reticle is precise enough with .5 mil stadia that you can dial or hold your dope with no problem. You can use the $1000 you saved to buy lots of ammo.
2) Go all in. Buy a USO, premier, S&B, Nightforce, Steiner, or Kahles. As for which one, well... that's a conversation in itself and I don't want to expend the effort if you don't decide to go this route. :)
Orkan,
I really appreciate that feedback. Interestingly enough, I had an USO 3.5 -17 in my hands today that I could walk out the door with for $2,400 plus tax. It was really nice. Plus, if the rifle ever failed, I am pretty sure I could use the scope as a cudgel for self defense.
I'm not opposed to spending on glass as long as the incremental dollar is met with a commensurate gain.
Yeah, those USO's are tanks. John and company are classy too. Great outfit to deal with.
How was that scope configured? There are some things that I'd say are "must have's" if you are spending at that level. A $2400 USO usually doesn't have them. They "can" but usually don't. Usually takes $3000 or so to get a USO setup right. That's based on features that I need in my long range scopes anyway.
I'm not sure about all the options. It was illuminated and they had a few different reticle options. I hope this question doesn't hijack the thread, but what are your must haves, and is a 17x top end enough?
17x is enough.
Here's how my USO's are configured:
SN3 5-17x44 T-Pal (custom mag ring, no tunneling)
Matte Black Type III Hard Anodizing
Knob Elevation - EREK 1/10 MIL 110 Click MILESTONE (heavy click every mil)
Knob Windage - US#3 1/10 MIL Windage Stop (RIGHT)
Tube - 34mm
Parallax Control - T-Pal Left Side (go right side if you want all firing hand controls)
Illumination - Digital Push Button (Green)
Reticle - GenIIXR
Eyepiece Housing - Lo Profile - Rapid Focus
Eyepiece - Rapid Focus
Sunshade - Sunshade w/ ARD 44mm 2"
Objective Covers - Flip Open Lens Cover 44mm
Eyepiece Covers - Flip Open Eyepiece Cover
You can do without illumination if you want.
You can do without ARD if you want.
You can't live without an EREK, but you can live without the Milestone EREK, but it's impossible to adjust it without looking. I'm working with them to develop a "mini-EREK" style windage turret.
That's the cool aspect of USO. You can have it any way you want!
Much appreciated. I'll look into pricing on these specs. Are you a bigger fan of USO vs. NF?
Yes I like USO better, because you can't get a lot of options on the nightforce. Don't get me wrong, nightforce makes GREAT optics... and they are reliable as hell. They just aren't as user friendly. To set the zero and zero stop on a nightforce, you have to take the turret off. With an EREK, you just use a couple hex wrenches. To adjust the illumination power on a USO, you just push a button. On the nightforce, you have to take the cap off. Stuff like that really licks ass when you are a competition shooter or a hunter.
Situation:
You are watching a deer, and it's moving... and you need to put dope in your gun. Without a milestone turret, you will be counting a LOT. With a milestone, you can count 1mil,2mil,3mil,4mil, click click click click. 4.4 mils, and you don't have to look. Wind you can hold.
This is one of many situations that I find myself in where I can't take my eye off the target.
Also, I like USO as a company more than I like Nightforce. Go watch the interview I did with John III and you'll see what I mean. They are top notch people to deal with.
http://youtu.be/dXP6myqVcCs
Then you can watch a review on a 5-17 that I did.
http://youtu.be/x5eARixqoQM
If you don't have enough information to base a decision on after that... God help you. ;)
Remington 700 or Savage all the way!
I read you 4x4. Thanks for taking the time to reply. I'll very likely head in this direction.
Magic_Salad0892
08-19-12, 07:39
I haven't owned a razor for more than a year or so... so take what I'm telling you with that in mind. I had one of the first ones they produced, as well as another one about 6 months after that.
There are a couple things that I don't like about the vortex razor 5-20. Their quality control is lacking. There are still people popping up with crap on their reticles after a few shots. So, thing #1 would be quality control. This shouldn't be happening on a $2000 optic. This happens with their PST line, but those are waaay cheaper, so it's forgivable. Having it continually happen on a $2000 optic isn't forgivable.
The second thing is the elevation turret is obnoxiously tall and the clicks are mushy for only having 5 mils per revolution. Now I see that they have a 10-mil turret out, and I haven't tried one to see if the clicks are still mushy or too close together.
Were I you, I'd do one of 2 things...
1) Buy a vortex PST 6-24 mil/mil/ffp.
The elevation knob is only 5 mils per turn, but has zero stop and precise clicks. The windage knob has no zero stop and isn't windage stop either... so you can, and probably will get lost in that turret once or twice. This would be a good experience for you to have anyway... so you realize how important those features are on a scope. The eyebox is pretty forgiving for a scope that cheap (under $1000) and the reticle is precise enough with .5 mil stadia that you can dial or hold your dope with no problem. You can use the $1000 you saved to buy lots of ammo.
2) Go all in. Buy a USO, premier, S&B, Nightforce, Steiner, or Kahles. As for which one, well... that's a conversation in itself and I don't want to expend the effort if you don't decide to go this route. :)
I was just looking at a Kahles scope today.
Damn... If I was made of money...
Remington 700 or Savage all the way!
THIS.... is a man with refined tastes in firearms. :p
THIS.... is a man with refined tastes in firearms. :p
Nothing but the best! ;) I picked up my 700 SPS Tactical for $400, never been shot and I'd but it against any other entry to mid level .308 out there. I may not be the best shooter but that gun will out shoot my own skills any day
I don't have a USO, But have several NF scopes. On mine to illuminate, you just pull knob out. Very quick and easy. Zero stop is easy too, but you do have to learn that. There are other scopes with endless features but NF has all I need. I'm a fanboy -Straight up.
When you consider high end scopes and durability, which is key for me, NF is a bargain. I almost traded one of my custom 1911's for a USO via the Hide. I got too busy with work ....wish I had that mother now. I have 6 1911's and zero USO's. Such is life. The things that draw me to USO are their reputation for durability and EREK elevation knob. Very cool, don't know what Milestone feature.
I very much agree Vortex and Bushnell have great set ups for less budget. IMHO, NF is the first tier of top shelf scopes that can be had in the low 2k's. I have many Bushy scopes that serve me well.
I'm a big fan of seekins rings and bases but have used Badger and NF Which worked fine.
Good luck with your rifle.
Thanks, PapaBear. I appreciate the response. I handled a few NF optics yesterday, and they are very nice. I tend to research the hell out of things before committing thousands of dollars.
I did get a quote just under 3k for a USO with Orkan's specs with a 10 week estimated build time. It looks like a good package, but the analyst in me will keep researching for a few weeks.
I don't have a USO, But have several NF scopes. On mine to illuminate, you just pull knob out. Very quick and easy. Zero stop is easy too, but you do have to learn that. Being forced to take the turret off in the field to adjust zero stop is a no-go for a lot of people. Mostly competitive shooters. Also, to adjust illumination intensity requires removal of the cap also.
Neither operation is quick, easy, or fun to do while laying in the dirt with wind blowing. As all that nice grease under the turret acts like a hoover, sucking up every dust particle that happens to be lifted past. ;)
You'll never hear me downplay nightforce's ruggedness. They are the king of reliability. No questioning it, don't deny it. ... but on features, they are way lacking. It's not like USO's have a reputation for shitting the bed, and they have the features you need to be faster and more accurate. :)
Being forced to take the turret off in the field to adjust zero stop is a no-go for a lot of people. Mostly competitive shooters. Also, to adjust illumination intensity requires removal of the cap also.
Neither operation is quick, easy, or fun to do while laying in the dirt with wind blowing. As all that nice grease under the turret acts like a hoover, sucking up every dust particle that happens to be lifted past. ;)
You'll never hear me downplay nightforce's ruggedness. They are the king of reliability. No questioning it, don't deny it. ... but on features, they are way lacking. It's not like USO's have a reputation for shitting the bed, and they have the features you need to be faster and more accurate. :)
I've never been in the field, nor at a match, where I decided that it was necessary to re-set my zero stop or adjust my illumination. Maybe I'm different, but I make sure my stuff (load, zero, everything) is squared away before I hit the field/match. If something isn't right, be it the ammo or the scope, then I can realistically hold in the reticle if necessary. I've also seen some USO's not make it, though I understand their QC has changed quite a bit...to the point thatI'd actually buy one now. No doubt that they listen to their customers, and their customization is tops in the field.
That being said, I'd buy a Bushnell HDMR with a G2 reticle before I dropped another 1k for a USO or nightforce. The glass is as good as my NF's, and on par with every USO that I've look through. I sold my S&B 4-16x50 P4F to pay for two of them and rings. Illumination is a non starter for most, as very, very few people will be competing/hunting/plinking in the dark. Military/LEO folks are a different story. Zero stops are also a non starter for me. My NF's have them, my Vortex had one ( I sold it to a friend in need), but my bushy's don't. I've not had a problem in the field or at a match, including running chaos drills. Didn't seem to be a problem at the Rifles Only Brawl with half of the field running HDMR's either. I'd prefer a zero stop, but I can run it no problem without.
Point being, get good optics and mounts (USO, NF, Bushnell, etc..), a good 308, and run the hell out of it. Literally burn the barrel out, and then adjust from there.
This has been a good thread.
That being said, I'd buy a Bushnell HDMR with a G2 reticle before I dropped another 1k for a USO or nightforce. The glass is as good as my NF's, and on par with every USO that I've look through. I sold my S&B 4-16x50 P4F to pay for two of them and rings. Illumination is a non starter for most, as very, very few people will be competing/hunting/plinking in the dark. Military/LEO folks are a different story. Zero stops are also a non starter for me. My NF's have them, my Vortex had one ( I sold it to a friend in need), but my bushy's don't. I've not had a problem in the field or at a match, including running chaos drills. Didn't seem to be a problem at the Rifles Only Brawl with half of the field running HDMR's either. I'd prefer a zero stop, but I can run it no problem without.
Point being, get good optics and mounts (USO, NF, Bushnell, etc..), a good 308, and run the hell out of it. Literally burn the barrel out, and then adjust from there.
This has been a good thread.
I shoot the bushy HDMR too. My only grip is 5 mil's per revolution.
I hear they are going to change that. It's a kick ass scope fr the money. BIG TIME. FFP, ILLUM.....it's nice
I've never been in the field, nor at a match, where I decided that it was necessary to re-set my zero stop or adjust my illumination. You must be one of those lucky guys that always has everything go right.
Most aren't. ;)
AR15barrels
08-20-12, 17:03
I shoot the bushy HDMR too. My only grip is 5 mil's per revolution.
Unless your elevation knob is well over 2" of diameter, the clicks get really close together with a single turn 10 mil knob.
Even the 11 mil Erek is a little small in my opinion.
I made a 3" diameter cap for my Erek and it's got very nice spacing between clicks now.
Im just used to the NF, and they are crisp and basically perfect IMO.
10 mils and they are much smaller than the Bushnell ones which are huge. I like the huge ones, look cool, but they dont even compare to NF. So, I basically have no idea what your talking about. Gunna have to disagree.
I made a 3" diameter cap for my Erek and it's got very nice spacing between clicks now. Got any pictures of this?
AR15barrels
08-21-12, 01:57
Got any pictures of this?
Here it was before anodizing...
13297
The clicks are about 1/8" of diameter per 1/10 mil click.
Its so easy to use with milestones that I have not even engraved if yet...
AR15barrels
08-21-12, 02:09
Im just used to the NF, and they are crisp and basically perfect IMO.
10 mils and they are much smaller than the Bushnell ones which are huge. I like the huge ones, look cool, but they dont even compare to NF. So, I basically have no idea what your talking about. Gunna have to disagree.
Back when still ran nightforce scopes, I made a 2" diameter knob for them.
Nightforce told me how to adjust my clicker tension to make it feel just as good with my 2" diameter knob as the factory little 1 3/8" knobs feel.
Here it was before anodizing...
13297
The clicks are about 1/8" of diameter per 1/10 mil click.
Its so easy to use with milestones that I have not even engraved if yet...
Dude , that is hilarious. I thought you were kidding. To each his own. Enjoy
I read this again and looked at that pic, for real did you really put that on your gun or are just bullshitting around.
fallenromeo
08-22-12, 09:54
Here it was before anodizing...
13297
The clicks are about 1/8" of diameter per 1/10 mil click.
Its so easy to use with milestones that I have not even engraved if yet...
Im gonna admit, I laughed when I saw that. Tell me that is not real. :lol:
randall, that is awesome. you should sell them.
Randall, I want two. But I prefer a slightly oversized knob if you can customize for me. Should be a plenty of room for both mil and moa combined to a custom turret for .223 , 308 and 338. Boom, we are on to something now.
ALso, please post a pic of the turret for all to lust after. Call it the Navy SEAL package.
Stonebridge
08-23-12, 15:58
First, I see a lot of people are getting sound advice so I'm really glad I asked for the community's help and very appreciative that you all responded.
So Saturday was the test. Having shot the 700 (thanks again 1911Pro) I wanted to see how comparable it was to the Savage. The Savage rep had a trunk full of Hornady ammunition. I shot the 110 in .308 with the detachable box magazine, threaded barrel, Accu-trigger, and a fugly digi-cam stock. Also spent a good bit of time behind the BA in .300 Win Mag.
Orkan... now I get what you were saying. The trigger was set heavier on the .308 than on the .300 but they were both finicky and I didn't like the feel. Several times I had to lift the bolt handle straight up and slowly bring it back down because the trigger was dead. If you didn't pull the trigger exactly the right way it wanted, it wouldn't go off. Don't know if that's an issue with aftermarket 700 triggers or not but it didn't speak to me of reliability.
The DBM was rattly as hell. I don't know; maybe all DBMs are but no way would I want that much noise. The magazine did lock positively into place though.
Both were certainly accurate enough for my purposes though I recognize 200 yards is a chip shot with these rifles. I was happy that with my lack of bolt-gun experience I was able to keep the bullet holes overlapping one another at 200.
I was surprised that the felt recoil on the .308 was markedly higher than the .300 Win Mag. The BA has a pretty large muzzle brake on it so it was loud but very soft shooting. Of course it weighed three times as much as the .308 so....
Both had to be very smartly cycled to keep from binding up, something I did not expect. Had some issues feeding and ejecting. The 700 didn't have any problems but I didn't put as many rounds through it. I haven't heard of widespread 700 reliability problems yet many people have commented on such issues with the Savage.
I didn't write down the models of Vortex glass on the rifles but they were certainly more than adequate and seemed to be clear and rock solid. Again, I'm no pro but I'd be happy with either of them as I've been pleased already with the Vortex glass I've owned and other Vortexes I've shot with.
Having shot both rifles now, I think either would suit my particular needs; I'm not looking to get into competitions and have nowhere to shoot more than 500-800 yards.
That said, if I'm getting into the long-range .308 game, it's going to be a 700. But I had to shoot them both myself to come to that conclusion. It's just how I roll ;)
Thank you one and all for your advice and sharing your experiences. Hopefully before too much longer I can shift gears from "what rifle should I get?" to "what changes should I make to my 700?"
Thanks again and best regards,
-'bridge
AR15barrels
08-24-12, 13:51
The trigger was set heavier on the .308 than on the .300 but they were both finicky and I didn't like the feel. Several times I had to lift the bolt handle straight up and slowly bring it back down because the trigger was dead. If you didn't pull the trigger exactly the right way it wanted, it wouldn't go off. Don't know if that's an issue with aftermarket 700 triggers or not but it didn't speak to me of reliability.
Both were certainly accurate enough for my purposes though I recognize 200 yards is a chip shot with these rifles. I was happy that with my lack of bolt-gun experience I was able to keep the bullet holes overlapping one another at 200.
Both had to be very smartly cycled to keep from binding up, something I did not expect. Had some issues feeding and ejecting.
That said, if I'm getting into the long-range .308 game, it's going to be a 700. But I had to shoot them both myself to come to that conclusion.
It's good that you expereinced the "feel" of the rifles before you purchased.
I think most savage purchasers buy based on price and savage's excellent accuracy track record.
All those other things (function, ergonomics & upgradeability) are important too.
Of course the Savage rifles are lacking in those other things.
There's no question that Savages are accurate, but accuracy is only a small part of the whole "feel" of shooting.
The savage lovers rabidly defend their purchases so as not to feel bad about what they bought as it would make them look bad to admit the truth of it all...
There's no question that Savages are accurate, but accuracy is only a small part of the whole "feel" of shooting.
The savage lovers rabidly defend their purchases so as not to feel bad about what they bought as it would make them look bad to admit the truth of it all... ... it's posts like this that restore my faith in humanity.
Thank you. :)
... it's posts like this that restore my faith in humanity.
And then I COUNTER!!!
http://www.lipseys.com/images/layout/template/mfgCatalogLogos/SavageArms.jpg
http://www.gregd.net/pics/funny/choke.jpg
Maybe i just got lucky, but i've never felt the need to replace or do any work to my stock 700 trigger. From the day i bought it it has been perfect for me.
When i owned a Savage that was the only thing i couldn't get to work right for me, was the stock trigger. It constantly caused me headaches! The rest of the gun i had no issues with, and it was indeed very accurate!
fallenromeo
08-24-12, 15:19
http://www.gregd.net/pics/funny/choke.jpg
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc97/fallenromeo/tumblr_m8rpw9ZQ6k1qde2iwo2_1280.jpg
TurretGunner
09-15-12, 09:21
Maybe I shouldf have said "Can't wait to see which you like better and what you like about which". Specificly the accutrigger, the bolt travel, the fit and finish. I'm trying to see why so many new shooters go Savage (in my neck of the woods at least).
Not trying to start shit at all, but what wears out on savage? I've never heard that one before? (that being said I had a very low round count savage 30-06 strip a action screw completely)
Do they use substandard steel? Bolt to soft? If you want please reply in a PM as to not derail the thread.
Mostly to do with anything put out by remington is shit. The 700 is garbage in fit finish and machining compared to 30 years ago. Same with the 870. I sold them all and bought an old mint wingmaster that makes the the new 870s feel like a hipoint.
Savage is putting out a better product , cheaper than rem. Better quality componets (minus stock) and a better barrel. Add the ability for the user to change barrels/calibers, for the money, the savage is a better buy.
FN SPR is really the best value out there, but may be out of your price range.
Dont confuse a trued worked up rifle (m24) to one off the rem commercial factory. Not even the same ballapark.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/funny/NotThisShitAgain_trek.jpg
As I mentioned, I've been leaning heavily toward a Savage .308 topped with Vortex glass as my starter gun. Imagine my surprise when I learned that Savage, Vortex, and Hornady are putting on a range day ten miles from my house. I see that as a sign from the heavens right there; at least that's the excuse I'll be giving my wife :D
NOW, place an ad in your local paper advertising a rifle / scope package just like what you want at a hugely inflated price. Make a big deal of reading / showing her the ad and act all dejected that it is so far outside your price range. When you bring one home for far less, you'll be a hero.
Stonebridge
09-15-12, 21:08
FVC3- Duuuuude. Genius.
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