View Full Version : Mass License Plate Scanner for Patrol Cars
TangoSauce
06-05-12, 14:52
A new patrol vehicle that is able to scan hundreds of license plates at a time was deployed Monday in Valley Center, Sheriff's Department officials said.
The $78,673 Dodge Charger was purchased with a grant from East County gambling tribes, officials said. It's not the first vehicle equipped with plate-reading technology, but it will be the first to be used in the county's rural areas, said Lt. Michael McClain of the Valley Center sheriff's substation.
"It's fantastic to have this at our disposal," McClain said.
The vehicle has four cameras mounted on the roof that can scan about 300 license plates at a time. A computer inside the cab matches the license plates against Department of Motor Vehicles databases.
Officials said the computer automatically downloads data from the DMV four times a day. That information includes the license plate numbers of stolen vehicles and those belonging to wanted felons, Amber Alert information and missing-persons information.
McClain said the technology has many crime-fighting uses. For example,it can be used to help find sex offenders who might be hanging around near a school or playground, he said.
"I hope people understand the importance of having this technology," McClain said.
However, there are some privacy rights advocates that don't welcome the use of this technology, such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a digital privacy rights group based in San Francisco.
State Sen. Joe Simitian, D-Palo Alto, has proposed a bill that would limit the use of license-plate-reading technology. His legislation, Senate Bill 1330, would require local law enforcement agencies to retain data captured by license plate scanners for only 60 days, except when the information is being used in felony investigations.
The bill is dead for the year because the Senate did not take it up, a spokeswoman for the senator said. However, Simitian may offer the bill again next year, she said.
Sheriff's officials underscored Monday that the technology does nothing that a deputy can't already do. The digital scanning technology does simply does it much faster than any deputy ever could.
"I would have to manually enter every single license plate number I wanted to run, but with this I'm able to do several hundred vehicles a minute, and it automatically tells me if something is there or not," said Sgt. Robert Niderost, who wrote the grant that paid for the vehicle.
Sheriff's officials said the vehicle will be used in North County casinos, such as Pala Casino and Valley View Casino, which have multiple-level parking lots. Deputies will be looking in particular for stolen vehicles.
The Valley Center substation serves the communities of Valley Center, Pauma Valley, Palomar Mountain and Rancho Guejito. It also serves several reservations, such as La Jolla, Pala, Rincon and San Pasqual.
The money for the vehicle came from the Barona Band of Mission Indians and the Sycuan Band of Mission Indians through the Indian Gaming Local Community Benefit Committee. The committee was formed to distribute grants aimed at reducing the off-reservation problems caused by tribal gaming, such as crime, traffic and gambling addiction.
http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/valley-center/valley-center-license-plate-reading-patrol-car-comes-to-local/article_801a34b1-954f-5cab-a587-7fcb6feab65b.html
IIRC CMPD here in Charlotte has had a couple of cars at least that have been running this since 2010 at least. As I understand it they may be deploying stationary scanners starting with the DNC here?
They've been about even before 2010, just that now they've gotten them smaller and expanded the rate/volume at which they function.
Ever see the patrol cars with the shoeboxes on stilts on the rear deck?
Same thing, older technology.
Static cameras are the fad now.
Pay attention to the traffic control lights as quite a few are 'being refitted with new sensors to improve traffic flow', even those that already had an optical sensor.
NCPatrolAR
06-06-12, 10:13
They've been around for years. I've done T&E on them and didnt find much use in them when put on patrol vehicles
In a way this disturbs me for no other reason than more technology to further the nanny state watch over us. If it is truly accurate and makes little to no false positives then it could be a good thing but anything computerized/automated, especially an optical scanner is bound to have some flaws. What if it accidentally tagged you as a sex offender? Christ, I would hope the LE policy would be at least to double check those that are flagged.
Then again, I would love nothing more than all sex offenders to have a boot to the throat. When the red light cameras started coming out I didn't mind it because I hate nothing more than a guy/gal that intentionally blows through the intersection after the turn arrow is off and when my light to go straight has been green for three or four seconds. Towns took advantage of it though and started decreasing the yellow caution time to rack up on tickets then you had a backlash.
The next step is to network this technology to Google Earth so they can track your movements, find out where you shop, sell the information to advertisers and tweet the hot specials to your smart phone
Robb Jensen
06-06-12, 20:10
Virginia State Police and local depts around here have had them for the last 2 years or so. I don't drive around with expired plates, suspended license, nor drive a stolen vehicle so I have no worries....
Virginia State Police and local depts around here have had them for the last 2 years or so. I don't drive around with expired plates, suspended license, nor drive a stolen vehicle so I have no worries....
.....yet.....
Sounds like a lot of people with little to no knowledge of how the system works making assumptions about how it works and basing their view on that.
The system doesn't "run" license plates in the same way an officer would if they were behind you.
The LPR system isn't live with our license bureau, nor does it broadcast information. A thumb drive is loaded into the host laptop computer which has a list of wanted vehicles. This would include stolen vehicles, vehicles wanted in connection to felony crimes etc.
When the system is active, it scans license plates. When a match is discovered, the LPR displays an alert on the laptop showing a picture of the suspect license plate next to what the system "thinks" it is. It is up to the officer to run a formal computer check to verify if the information is active, and take appropriate action.
To be flagged in the system, a vehicle would have to be entered as wanted in NCIC or the like. It won't flag your plate if it's expired. Which is kind of a ridiculous concern, being that if it's expired the sticker on the plate would plainly state the same...
Tow companies doing repossessions have had access to LPR systems for a while. They load a list of cars they have contracts for and start hitting parking lots.
same thing parking authority checks for out standing tickets so the can boot cars or tow them off. My cousin and her husband had one for their repo business in Texas
Me and my brother used to drive a car with the cameras. Real finicky tech, runs the plates wrong alot of times or doesn't read them at all. Their best use is in large apartment complexes where stolens are dumped. It's not any better for patrol bc I run a ton of plates anyways. It's basically a stolen recovery car.
It won't flag your plate if it's expired. Which is kind of a ridiculous concern, being that if it's expired the sticker on the plate would plainly state the same...
Provided of course one lives in a state where plates are stickered.
Either way, if you're driving a car on a public road, that pavement, traffic lights, and signs are paid for by the revenue from license plate fees, associated taxes etc.
So do your part and pay your share.
Voodoo_Man
06-07-12, 06:50
We have them, not on every car but enough cars.
Its good for a suspended tag/license/etc stop a day and at least one or two stolen cars a month, many a pursuit has been started by them.
.....yet.....
how is it any different than officers punching in plate numbers as they are rolling? I work late nights and see quite a few PBSO deputies punching in plate numbers into the laptop after dark while Im at a red light. Those toughbook screens are frickin bright! All they need is the plate number, the Florida DAVID system tells them everything in full color, they know what I look like even before they get out of the Vic.
I believe concerns with this technology have less to do with whether it is going to pick up people with expired plates and more to do with the end result which will eventually have real time uploads to a centralized database. As the number of cameras increase and technology increases, this will allow for tracking of every car with a license plate and that vehicle's gps movement data to be stored and analyzed. It is one more level of "Big Brother" creeping into society. You obviously can't tell the public that is what the end game is, you have to do it slowly in increments.
That's pretty paranoid. I guess in some way i'm glad people think like this, but it just doesn't reflect reality.
What makes you think this information, assuming you could do it, would want to do it, get approval and funding to do it, would have any value what so ever?
What makes you think a local police department would even have the resources to store, track and analyze the data? Or that, despite suspending disbelief that agencies do communicate with each other freely...that you could get multiple agencies to cooperate in a big brother "end game"?
There is already case law concerning GPS tracking of vehicles, which requires a court order to do.
Those toughbook screens are frickin bright!
Only when they are new. They fade fast and eventually you won't be able to read it in daylight. Guys with half a brain dim the screen at night so it won't mess with your vision or light up the interior of your car at night.
I don't assume that local PDs will do that. I do assume that the Dept. of Homeland Security will need to do that "for our protection" in the future. Considering the lengths they are going to to track everyone on the Internet, I would assume they would like to do this in the real world as well.
IMO $78k would have been been better spent on a $20k cruiser and a $50k officer patrolling the streets for another year. But then what do I know??
The technology itself doesn't bother me per se, the idiots using it; and by idiots I don't mean the line officer driving about town, but the political goofballs behind the scenes who don't give a rats ass about anything but their personal power trips.
The next logical step is going to be to make the system live so there is no need to have a thumb drive. The system can be updated with new info on the fly using cellular data streams like our iPhones. Then some goofy guy guy sitting in his undies in a living room in India will hack the system and think its funny to have the HS Football coach picked up as a pedophile. Or worse maybe some political flunky will have his opponent picked up by a SWAT team... Oh wait already happening.
I also wonder how long it will take cities to realize that there are dollars to be made by selling peoples driving habits to retailers or anyone else. I mean it's all public information right. You're on a public road and have no expectation of privacy as to your routes and destinations.
Because there are no safeguards in place to keep that from happening. :confused:
Our wireless service is so friggn' slow due to the VPN and encryption it runs. My iPhone on a 3G network can run circles around it.
Its always in threads like this people imagine capabilities far beyond what exist and let their imignations run wild.
Virginia State Police and local depts around here have had them for the last 2 years or so. I don't drive around with expired plates, suspended license, nor drive a stolen vehicle so I have no worries....
Slippery slope... Since you are not a drug dealer, moonshiner or manufacturing illegal weapons, would you consent to a search of your vehicle the next time you are stopped?
My dept bought some a few years back. They just sit in the parking lot now. The computer system works decently but it gets way bogged down trying to run the plates with our horribly slow wireless network.
Robb Jensen
06-07-12, 21:24
Slippery slope... Since you are not a drug dealer, moonshiner or manufacturing illegal weapons, would you consent to a search of your vehicle the next time you are stopped?
Nope to go fishing they need a "fishing license" (aka warrant).
Because there are no safeguards in place to keep that from happening. :confused:
Our wireless service is so friggn' slow due to the VPN and encryption it runs. My iPhone on a 3G network can run circles around it.
Its always in threads like this people imagine capabilities far beyond what exist and let their imignations run wild.
I should have prefaced my previous post with a disclaimer that I am self admittedly hyper critical/paranoid when it comes to things government. I grew up behind the old iron curtain and while my parents did an extremely good job of shielding us from the horrors of communism, its hard to ignore friends who disappear never to be seen again or return as shells of the people they were with seriously FUBAR'd bodies. Coupling those experiences the history of our treatment of Native Americans and Japanese Americans leads me to believe that there is a serious fallacy in the thinking that it can't happen here or that there are sufficient safeguards against abuses.
The hacking aspect is IMO not up to debate. EVERY network is vulnerable to penetration given enough time and resources. Back in the day the DoD did get hacked by some guy on a computer we would deem "retarded" by today's standards. Think TRS80 or similar if you can remember back that far. Banks get hacked regularly. Retail establishments or credit card processing locations get hacked. To believe that you are safe from a hack is naive. There are people who have had LEO visits and ended up in cuffs simply cause someone supposedly hacked their ever secure VOIP network and made threatening calls supposedly originating from their #. I have a hand in designing the hardware that makes those "secure" VPN' s possible and believe me they aren't as secure as youd like to think. They are exceptional at delivering the functionality you demand. They are exceptionally good at keeping even great hackers out of your business. However, don't for one second believe that if someone truly wants at your data that they will be stopped. Data is like crack cocaine; where there is a will there is a way.
Slippery slope... Since you are not a drug dealer, moonshiner or manufacturing illegal weapons, would you consent to a search of your vehicle the next time you are stopped?
There is no expectation of privacy w/ plates, which is all this is about.
how is it any different than officers punching in plate numbers as they are rolling? I work late nights and see quite a few PBSO deputies punching in plate numbers into the laptop after dark while Im at a red light. Those toughbook screens are frickin bright! All they need is the plate number, the Florida DAVID system tells them everything in full color, they know what I look like even before they get out of the Vic.
This is more what concerns me:
Static cameras are the fad now.
Pay attention to the traffic control lights as quite a few are 'being refitted with new sensors to improve traffic flow', even those that already had an optical sensor.
An automated system that scans plates is a little too 'all seeing eye' for my taste.
This isn't likely of concern, as I said, yet.
sadly the gov is like a 15 year old boy with his first hot date and saying no really I just want to cuddle when we really know what he wants to do !!!!
while they have been out for a while the info they gather and the new facility the gov has I have to wonder in the long run what will happen with all that info they dont use ? hmmmmm
CarlosDJackal
06-11-12, 09:01
Slippery slope... Since you are not a drug dealer, moonshiner or manufacturing illegal weapons, would you consent to a search of your vehicle the next time you are stopped?
I don't see the link between this and the mass license plate scanner. :confused:
All they are doing is increasing their ability to read license plates. It's not like they are storing information about said license plate (IE: time, location, direction of travel, occupants, etc.).
There is no such thing as requiring consent for LEOs to read your car's license plates. By law, these have to be displayed in a way that they can be led. They must have have consent or a warrant (which requires PC) to search your vehicle. Very different requirements that have no relationship whatsoever.
CarlosDJackal
06-11-12, 09:05
sadly the gov is like a 15 year old boy with his first hot date and saying no really I just want to cuddle when we really know what he wants to do !!!!
while they have been out for a while the info they gather and the new facility the gov has I have to wonder in the long run what will happen with all that info they dont use ? hmmmmm
These scanners don't gather info. The scanner merely takes the number and runs it against a database (IE: hit list for the day). If it doesn't come up with a hit, it discards that number. If it does, it records the number and the time and date.
I din think that anyone who has posted concerns about the plate scanners is concerned about what happens with them and the data they "collect" today. I am worried about what it can lead to tomorrow. Kind of like waiting for your daughter to get pregnant before having the ole bird and bees conversation. Too little too late once the cat is out of the bag.
Given human history, heck even limiting it to just US history, ignoring future ramifications of things being brought to hear today is a bad idea. Doesn't mean we have to run about screaming in panic, but it does mean thinking about what can go wrong and insuring to the best of our abilities that we have done things to mitigate those risks.
. I've done T&E on them and didnt find much use in them when put on patrol vehicles That surprises me. I could see them being handy. Then again one can only stop so many cars. In my AO, I could stop nothing but expired tags and have plenty to do.
CarlosDJackal
06-11-12, 13:28
I din think that anyone who has posted concerns about the plate scanners is concerned about what happens with them and the data they "collect" today. I am worried about what it can lead to tomorrow. Kind of like waiting for your daughter to get pregnant before having the ole bird and bees conversation. Too little too late once the cat is out of the bag.
Given human history, heck even limiting it to just US history, ignoring future ramifications of things being brought to hear today is a bad idea. Doesn't mean we have to run about screaming in panic, but it does mean thinking about what can go wrong and insuring to the best of our abilities that we have done things to mitigate those risks.
I understand what you mean. But the concerns of what their future capabilities and how they can be misused has already been addressed by the dozens of Case Laws and SCOTUS rulings about information gathering and use. Let's concentrate on those and clean them up so that they can better protect the citizenry and allow their use to fight criminal activity.
But instead people are complaining about the current technology and how it is used. I see no problem with scanning technology that merely alerts its user to an expired or stolen license plate. If God forbid someone steals my car, I would want the Police to find it as quickly and efficiently as possible. Wouldn't you?
If God forbid someone steals my car, I would want the Police to find it as quickly and efficiently as possible. Wouldn't you?
There's two things that happen with/to stolen cars for the most part.
1) chop shop
2) joyriding asshats
In either instance I wouldn't want the car back except only to make the insurance claim for the loss.
Otherwise it almost literally won't be worth having back anyway.
In scenario 1, the plate scanner would be utterly useless as the plates come off just as quickly as wheels, doors, fenders, interior, etc.
Slight gray area as to whether the plate(s) finds its way to another car for nefarious purposes, but that would be useless for ID'ing or recovering your vehicle, just catching the vehicle with illegal plate(s).
In scenario 2, it might identify the car, but usually after its been wadded into something or put into a lake and someone manually checked the #'s against a list as opposed to a scanner finding or identifying it.
It's not going to be picked up by a scanner 6 blocks away from your house 8 minutes after it goes missing.
Between you realizing the car is missing, report time, officer showing up to take written report, and finally getting it into the data system, you might be looking as as much as 8-10 or more hours before scanners even know to look for it.
Good attentive officers directly involved in the invesitgation/attempted location of the vehicle may spot it if they have a run of luck, but certainly not the scanners.
And you still probably wouldn't want the car back once found as there truly is a great amount of truth in the statement drive it like you stole it.
There's two things that happen with/to stolen cars for the most part.
1) chop shop
2) joyriding asshats.
3. Getaway car for other criminal activity (IMO used for this purpose more than anything else)
The next step is to network this technology to Google Earth so they can track your movements, find out where you shop, sell the information to advertisers and tweet the hot specials to your smart phone
And our ball and chain to technology/consumerism keeps growing and growing.
Couple years ago, smartphones and tablets were not as common; now, they almost seem mandatory.
I've done a few ride-alongs with one of our very own M4C LEOs and on one day we were rollin' in his department's blacked out Chevy Tahoe that they use with this system. I was really impressed with how fast it could catch & match oncoming plates on the fly and pop up the info with hardly any lag time. Their system was cell based and didn't use a thumb drive for what it's worth.
The only thing we were hunting for was bad dudes driving stolen rides and we managed to find a deserted one that day. We were able to return the victim's vehicle in relatively good condition and it really made his day.
Just popping in for a minute and hope everyone's doing well. This whole starting your own business shit is taking up all my M4C time! :D
I understand what you mean. But the concerns of what their future capabilities and how they can be misused has already been addressed by the dozens of Case Laws and SCOTUS rulings about information gathering and use. Let's concentrate on those and clean them up so that they can better protect the citizenry and allow their use to fight criminal activity.
But instead people are complaining about the current technology and how it is used. I see no problem with scanning technology that merely alerts its user to an expired or stolen license plate. If God forbid someone steals my car, I would want the Police to find it as quickly and efficiently as possible. Wouldn't you?
Your license plate is not your property, it belongs to the State. It is displayed publicly on the front (most States) and rear of your car for all to see. You have no reasonable expectation of privacy in public, so has said SCOTUS for a very long time. You do not have a privacy interest in the license plate, it is not yours. These systems do not say where you are, or what you are doing, they say where the State's license plate is or was or if there is an issue with it; a person has no reasonable expectation of privacy there either. Your DMV data, who you are, where you live, etc, can only be accessed for a legitimate law enforcement interest. They take spurious queries seriously, cops and dispatchers loose their jobs all the time for looking at crap they have no right to see.
Now, a system that you can type a license plate into that can tell you the last place it was seen has great law enforcement/public safety use and potential. Amber Alerts, missing persons, fugitives, suspects, etc. are just a few examples.
Compare the privacy afforded drivers on the open road and contrast that with general aviation. The whole system is public access. Want to know if your neighbor is a pilot or owns a plane, just go to thee FAA site and look him up. Want to know where a plane has been, is going, etc? You'd be surprised what you can learn from a Google search.
Couple years ago, smartphones and tablets were not as common; now, they almost seem mandatory.
And God forbid you apply for a job without having a facebook or myspace page to put on your resume.
These scanners don't gather info. The scanner merely takes the number and runs it against a database (IE: hit list for the day). If it doesn't come up with a hit, it discards that number. If it does, it records the number and the time and date.
hmmmm OK what is it ?
fact is they are designed to scan and get numbers and record the data ! its just for now they are not gathering !
its when someone high up says HEY we are gathering it might as well keep it ! ya never know maybe we can work so if a plate comes up in the future we know where the car usually is etc..
its not you I dont trust its the political people and if it happens I bet you wont know about it !
I understand what you mean. But the concerns of what their future capabilities and how they can be misused has already been addressed by the dozens of Case Laws and SCOTUS rulings about information gathering and use. Let's concentrate on those and clean them up so that they can better protect the citizenry and allow their use to fight criminal activity.
But instead people are complaining about the current technology and how it is used. I see no problem with scanning technology that merely alerts its user to an expired or stolen license plate. If God forbid someone steals my car, I would want the Police to find it as quickly and efficiently as possible. Wouldn't you?
I agree I think its a great thing for LEO !!
I dont worry about you or any other LEO abusing it
I wish you had more technology to help
ya think officials cared about the laws they were breaking with F&F !!!!
I wonder if the gun shop owners in F&F trusted the officials ?
and did F&F piss you off and did you think what the heck is going on did you loose any trust in F&F along the way ?
that is my point I think F&F hits the nail on the head that others in the food chain can be up to no good and be using info in ways they should not and some law or suit thing is not going to stop them !
do you really trust the gov %100 to do whats honest and best for its citizens and never do things against them !!
like drones over cattle ranchers !! who would have seen that one coming !
hmmmm OK what is it ?
fact is they are designed to scan and get numbers and record the data ! its just for now they are not gathering !
its when someone high up says HEY we are gathering it might as well keep it ! ya never know maybe we can work so if a plate comes up in the future we know where the car usually is etc..
its not you I dont trust its the political people and if it happens I bet you wont know about it !
The info it records pertains to that particular plate w/ a hit on it. The information on the tag itself is already recorded when you register your vehicle. There is no additional info that would be able to gather.
The info it records pertains to that particular plate w/ a hit on it. The information on the tag itself is already recorded when you register your vehicle. There is no additional info that would be able to gather.
they also time stamp and put GPS coordinates on a map !
if you are traveling the direction of travel is also recorded !
that info is not on your registration !!!
and the fact over time with all that in the data base trends would be easy to put together etc..
their have been cases where this info reorded is also used in investigations !
so the so called not recording is not true
they also time stamp and put GPS coordinates on a map !
if you are traveling the direction of travel is also recorded !
that info is not on your registration !!!
and the fact over time with all that in the data base trends would be easy to put together etc..
their have been cases where this info recorded is also used in investigations !
so the so called not recording is not true
It must be a conspiracy, then.
When I stop folks at work, the location is recorded w/ my camera which has a gps system integrated in it. If I make an arrest, the location and direction of travel is recorded in my report.
So?
no conspiracy ? thats silly !! and kinda childish to try to discredit me etc..
they are being used to record and not just used to find stolen cars etc..
they went from a check a field in a db to now recording info into a db
that is my issue with them ! why does somebody somewhere need to have and know this info ? advertising ? legal ?
so if someone decided to track your car and such you are OK with that ? its obvious you have a dif view then I do on privacy !
I guess to me a free country is a free country and my privacy is my privacy !
again I have no issue with them being used how they were intended but that is not happening now !]
I should ask you why then are you OK with someone recording that info on innocent people ?
The logic that a license plate scanner is going to "track" you is very flawed. It just doesn't happen.
I don't know how many police officers patrol your city/county, but on average there is one LEO on duty for every 10,000 people.
Now take into account how many times during your travels you pass a police car. I doubt its very many at all, but you want to pretend that somehow a person's travel habit could be gathered through a chance passing, which rarely occurs, on a busy road. Its so far disconnected from logic. Then take into account how many police cars actually have the system, and even if the system captures your plate. :blink:
If someone wanted to learn your travel habits all they would have to do is follow you...probably in a black helicopter.
I'd be more worried about systems like Northstar if you're actually worried about travel patterns and habits, not making some tin foil argument. Or, even better, car insurance companies that offer data modules you can plug into your car to determine your driving habits for a "discount".
no it does not track you it just records the info
once the info is in a db though you can find trends and again info on where you are have been etc.. is in a db !!!
very easy to put together
WHY
again all you that seem to be saying OK answer why do you think its OK !!!
and there are locations where these are now stationary !!! its not just in police cars as traffic cams get replaced with these etc...
so its not just the rare passing of a police car !!
and to say I am disconnected from logic is again childish at best ! not sure why when LEO have to try to talk like this to people ! it serves them no good ! shows the typical I am correct arrogance that they hold ! when in fact its not about LEO but you seem to be thinking it is !!!
its about a 3rd party company making this technology and what is done with it !
if you think LPR are only in LEO cars !!! WOW talk about a disconnect
having them on patrol cars is a small part ! again stationary is where its going more and more
and following you in a black helicopter ? come on get real ! you say I am disconnected from logic again childish try !
and I dont mind the side that helps LEO in cars ! I am all for that I am against the other side of it that is recording the info !
and north star the insurance modules etc.. ! you sign up for or agree to put these in your vehicle ! that is the big difference
I still find it funny both of you cant answer why you think its OK to gather this info on people who are not breaking the law !
and somehow defend it !!!
No, the license plate scanners don't put every plate they scan into a database. You are wrong about that.
Assuming for a second they did, how would random entries gathered from chance encounters indicate anything?
I'm not saying its ok or not ok, I'm saying it DOES NOT HAPPEN.
Your posts seem more like a 15 year old pecking randomly on a keyboard and not a well articulated discussion from an adult. So please, unless you have some actual facts to present or first hand knowledge, stop with the tin foil hat crap.
I never said they all did !!!
many are are putting everyone in now though !
again I doubt your mobile unit if you have one is but the ones along certain roads are !! and many stationary ones are !
I guess then to you F&F never happened cause the gov would never do what they did !!! you trust them more than I do !!!
so I guess then you calling me a 15 year old child dont come back till I have facts is grown up !!
hahahaha typical !
and again no tinfoil hat stuff ? that is something someone on the loosing side brings up to try to discredit !
I cant write ? OK you cant grasp simple computer concepts of how info is put together ! and if you cant figure out how random entries can indicate anything ! I guess you have never designed computer systems that access db info etc.. that's very clear now !
fact is this is happening how about you show proof it is not !!!
again typical response !
maybe you can say here is proof they are not now you show me yours ! but you cant show proof they are not collecting it ! if you can post it up
or maybe its a draw with other groups showing how they are and a few trying to say we are not with no proof to back it up !
I am not always a ACLU fan but they once in a while do the OK thing
http://www.aclu.org/blog/technology-and-liberty-criminal-law-reform/dea-recording-americans-movements-highways-creating
here from http://www.law.com/jsp/lawtechnologynews/PubArticleFriendlyLTN.jsp?id=1202555973445
this is one of many !
Police departments using these license plate readers have found the LPR data collected can be effective in solving crimes. For example, if there is a home invasion and the suspect flees in a vehicle that can be described by a witness, the police can check the data from any LPR in the area and see if there was a vehicle of that description that was leaving the area at that time and investigate whether the vehicle was involved in the crime.
and tons more
again no conspiracy but a concern
Good God, man!
Get your frikkin period key fixed.
The reality of these systems is that, for the most part, police departments in the US have some sort of civilian oversight, in the form of a commissioner, a public safety committee, a city council, or a mayor. These are the people who approve large purchases like LPRs, and can often put restrictions or safeguards/checks on their use. Not always the case, I know. I bitch about having to ultimately answer to a bunch of politicians who know next to nothing about cop work, especially in such a liberal city as this, but this system is a small part of what makes this country great.
Now, assuming that the above system didn't put some measure of restriction or compliance into the approval for LPRs. What next? Someone has to program the thing. What would be easier, faster, more time/money efficient? Uploading every single plate in the state (US's) database, or just the ones that the department already had an eye out for? Again, these check off of a database that has to have already been created. To upload all the plates in the state, one would have to have the time/money, and access (which can be restricted by civilian authority). Even in the example you cited from law dot com, police already have to have an idea of what to look for; a plate, a color, a make/model.
OK, so instead of just running the plates against an established list of known possibles, the system begins to collect the data. Now what? You seem to be pretty good with computers and by extension, numbers. Suppose I gave you the number 3.
What did that tell you?
Now, I give you the number 5? Anything? Well, 5 is 2 more than 3, and 5 is also 1 and 2/3 the value of 3. Still, not much.
Next is 8. 8 would be the next number in a Fibonacci sequence starting with 3 and 5, assuming the next number is 13. If the next number is 12, a different pattern arises.
back to the LPRs. Having a couple in patrol cars does little to establish a driving pattern that couldn't already be done by HUMINT. In fact, because the cars are mobile, the info would be much more difficult to make into a pattern. These things are expensive, require expertise to install and operate, and are already so fraught with privacy issues that municipalities are already skittish about going overboard with them. Even if you put a couple out at intersections, they still won't tell you much other than which cars go east at 5:30PM vs west. They can give a vague idea of a particular car's general direction of travel, but without a lot of them, and one at the vehicle's destination, the data won't show much of a useful pattern. LPRs still won't be able to tell authorities, or any interested party, that you're driving route home goes through the adult bookstore parking lot, or which driveways you enter. For that, one would have to have sensors placed at the entrances of such establishments, which would take time, energy, and money (and quite possibly a warrant). All this means is that you already have to be worth watching, and already on a list. And again, its nothing that a guy in a non-descript car can't already do, just not as fast.
I'm all for technology making my job easier and safer. I also understand that there has to be a limit to its use, scope, and oversight. Take a look at the debate about police UAVs. The technology is already here, Honu, or 1 or 2 generations away. Go vote; you may not get to choose who watches the watchmen, but you can choose their boss. Its a start.
Having said all that, we don't have them in police vehicles, for a few of the reasons I've mentioned.
A word about police GPS systems. They work both ways. Meaning that the dispatcher and bosses can often use them to see where their cars are/have been. Officer safety and dispatch benefits aside, GPS'ing cop cars has been a touchy subject for police unions, so don't think that we're all wired up.
Can someone translate this? I'm seriously lost...
I never said they all did !!!
many are are putting everyone in now though !
again I doubt your mobile unit if you have one is but the ones along certain roads are !! and many stationary ones are !
I guess then to you F&F never happened cause the gov would never do what they did !!! you trust them more than I do !!!
so I guess then you calling me a 15 year old child dont come back till I have facts is grown up !!
hahahaha typical !
and again no tinfoil hat stuff ? that is something someone on the loosing side brings up to try to discredit !
I cant write ? OK you cant grasp simple computer concepts of how info is put together ! and if you cant figure out how random entries can indicate anything ! I guess you have never designed computer systems that access db info etc.. that's very clear now !
fact is this is happening how about you show proof it is not !!!
again typical response !
maybe you can say here is proof they are not now you show me yours ! but you cant show proof they are not collecting it ! if you can post it up
or maybe its a draw with other groups showing how they are and a few trying to say we are not with no proof to back it up !
I am not always a ACLU fan but they once in a while do the OK thing
http://www.aclu.org/blog/technology-and-liberty-criminal-law-reform/dea-recording-americans-movements-highways-creating
here from http://www.law.com/jsp/lawtechnologynews/PubArticleFriendlyLTN.jsp?id=1202555973445
this is one of many !
and tons more
again no conspiracy but a concern
Can someone translate this? I'm seriously lost...
ahhahahaha
yes you are big time
whats sad is your ability to communicate is one way ! typical
many like you think YOU are correct and that is IT end of discussion
1: LPR are not just on patrol cars ! I know you dont believe this but many are stationary !
2: prove to me they are not gathering ! I gave you links below and it has shown how in some crimes they have gone back and looked at the data and seen if their was a car with that LIC plate in the area !!!!
now how could they do that if the car was never in the DB in the first place !
3: since you cant figure out how any of that data could be put together ! that is taught in computer 101 !!! good thing you do not work in tech cause you would get left behind !!!!!!!
This is like arguing with a little kid.
I have no idea what makes you think all of these systems are interconnected and that data is being stored and compiled, and that local governments have the financial resources to even touch that level of interoperability. They don't.
When the LPR system captures a plate on its hot list, that location is stored. Not every plate ever run by the system. Again, even if a license plate captured by a chance encounter with a LPR system, what would that possibly get you? Lets assume there are stationary systems, of which I know of none in existence, what would the value of the data saying my car passed through X intersection at Y time be?
I also doubt you've ever sat in a budget meeting and had to justify an expense. There is no way you could articulate the value to cost ratio of doing that, because there is no value in doing so.
There is a huge disconnect to what you think you know and the reality and limits of the technology. This isn't "computer 101". Having worked in the technology sector, there is much more to getting different systems to communicate than plugging in a cable.
Samuel Clemmons once wrote that only a fool uses an exclamation point; it is akin to laughing at your own joke. Just a parting little nugget you may want to stick in your hat.
Samuel Clemmons - I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
Lets assume there are stationary systems, of which I know of none in existence,
the fact alone shows me I am talking to someone who is clueless about LPR technology !
Samuel Clemmons once wrote that only a fool uses an exclamation point; it is akin to laughing at your own joke. Just a parting little nugget you may want to stick in your hat.
would love to have you show me where he once said this !
I think you meant - F. SCOTT FITZGERALD who said
Cut out all these exclamation points. An exclamation point is like laughing at your own joke.
I usually check things out before I open my mouth or dont open my mouth on things I am not really sure about !
the old you have two ears one mouth use them accordingly saying ! which I dont know who said that first :)
also if I am wrong I am man enough to say OOPPS guess I was wrong !
trying to make yourself sound like you have been in bigger positions of power etc... is funny to me :) you have no clue about me and what I have done !
very well said !
I agree
I am also all for making tech easier on officers ! and helping people out example getting their car back ! or a crime was committed being able to track that person better etc. it has helped put away criminals !
I wish every car on patrol could have them ! it would really help out and also make the roads much more safe I feel
what I am against are many of the new stationary ones ! and again this has nothing to do with LEO or anything like that ? some are taking it this way and not sure why ?
but the stationary ones that are going up that I have issues with ! and the technology the way it is being used to gather ! again no idea what will be done with that info as its gathered !
why the ACLU has said it should be purged after two weeks etc..
that I would be fine with but it seems some places might not not doing this ! the reason is they wont say what they are doing and one cant get the info with the freedom of information act ! so does make you wonder ! and with things like F&F I trust big brother to do whats best for political interest over the best for the good of the people !
Operation Sentinel is a good example of this
I am for it but at the same time they say in one month data is purged ? yet what will happen in later revisions ?
what happens with the next gen systems
are they really purging it ?
I say every tech has its good side and bad side !
and sadly the bad side is often not used by good people !
LEO are the good people getting the good side I feel though:)
to quote you :)
I'm all for technology making my job easier and safer. I also understand that there has to be a limit to its use, scope, and oversight. Take a look at the debate about police UAVs. The technology is already here, Honu, or 1 or 2 generations away. Go vote; you may not get to choose who watches the watchmen, but you can choose their boss. Its a start.
I think this is the key thing to make sure where its going and how its being used !
The reality of these systems is that, for the most part, police departments in the US have some sort of civilian oversight, in the form of a commissioner, a public safety committee, a city council, or a mayor. These are the people who approve large purchases like LPRs, and can often put restrictions or safeguards/checks on their use. Not always the case, I know. I bitch about having to ultimately answer to a bunch of politicians who know next to nothing about cop work, especially in such a liberal city as this, but this system is a small part of what makes this country great.
Now, assuming that the above system didn't put some measure of restriction or compliance into the approval for LPRs. What next? Someone has to program the thing. What would be easier, faster, more time/money efficient? Uploading every single plate in the state (US's) database, or just the ones that the department already had an eye out for? Again, these check off of a database that has to have already been created. To upload all the plates in the state, one would have to have the time/money, and access (which can be restricted by civilian authority). Even in the example you cited from law dot com, police already have to have an idea of what to look for; a plate, a color, a make/model.
OK, so instead of just running the plates against an established list of known possibles, the system begins to collect the data. Now what? You seem to be pretty good with computers and by extension, numbers. Suppose I gave you the number 3.
What did that tell you?
Now, I give you the number 5? Anything? Well, 5 is 2 more than 3, and 5 is also 1 and 2/3 the value of 3. Still, not much.
Next is 8. 8 would be the next number in a Fibonacci sequence starting with 3 and 5, assuming the next number is 13. If the next number is 12, a different pattern arises.
back to the LPRs. Having a couple in patrol cars does little to establish a driving pattern that couldn't already be done by HUMINT. In fact, because the cars are mobile, the info would be much more difficult to make into a pattern. These things are expensive, require expertise to install and operate, and are already so fraught with privacy issues that municipalities are already skittish about going overboard with them. Even if you put a couple out at intersections, they still won't tell you much other than which cars go east at 5:30PM vs west. They can give a vague idea of a particular car's general direction of travel, but without a lot of them, and one at the vehicle's destination, the data won't show much of a useful pattern. LPRs still won't be able to tell authorities, or any interested party, that you're driving route home goes through the adult bookstore parking lot, or which driveways you enter. For that, one would have to have sensors placed at the entrances of such establishments, which would take time, energy, and money (and quite possibly a warrant). All this means is that you already have to be worth watching, and already on a list. And again, its nothing that a guy in a non-descript car can't already do, just not as fast.
I'm all for technology making my job easier and safer. I also understand that there has to be a limit to its use, scope, and oversight. Take a look at the debate about police UAVs. The technology is already here, Honu, or 1 or 2 generations away. Go vote; you may not get to choose who watches the watchmen, but you can choose their boss. Its a start.
Having said all that, we don't have them in police vehicles, for a few of the reasons I've mentioned.
A word about police GPS systems. They work both ways. Meaning that the dispatcher and bosses can often use them to see where their cars are/have been. Officer safety and dispatch benefits aside, GPS'ing cop cars has been a touchy subject for police unions, so don't think that we're all wired up.
Ok bud, you're right everyone else is wrong. You have obviously operated a LPR equipped police car while on patrol. You have an extensive knowledge base which stretches beyond other people who actually work around/with this stuff everyday. Not a google knowledge base mind you, but one built on first hand real experience.
Quotes never get credited to more than one person. I'm sure if they switched the LPR magic big brother database to words it would be cleared up. What kills me about it is that you take the effort to prove me wrong on the quote thing, supossedly finding a similar quote where someone said overusing exclamation points make you look like a dick bag, then you keep over using exclamation points. I'm at a loss here.
I'm done talking circles. I'm going to edit my ignore list and drive on. The only thing I can gather from your posts is that English is a second language, you're drunk, or just don't care about expressing your ideas in a clear concise well articulated paragraph. Which makes me think you're a teenager. I don't think you've done anything. There is nothing in the content of your posts that would indicate otherwise.
dont resort to name calling and such really lowers you and your profession big time !
Ok bud, you're right everyone else is wrong. You have obviously operated a LPR equipped police car while on patrol. You have an extensive knowledge base which stretches beyond other people who actually work around/with this stuff everyday. Not a google knowledge base mind you, but one built on first hand real experience.
Quotes never get credited to more than one person. I'm sure if they switched the LPR magic big brother database to words it would be cleared up. What kills me about it is that you take the effort to prove me wrong on the quote thing, supossedly finding a similar quote where someone said overusing exclamation points make you look like a dick bag, then you keep over using exclamation points. I'm at a loss here.
I'm done talking circles. I'm going to edit my ignore list and drive on. The only thing I can gather from your posts is that English is a second language, you're drunk, or just don't care about expressing your ideas in a clear concise well articulated paragraph. Which makes me think you're a teenager. I don't think you've done anything. There is nothing in the content of your posts that would indicate otherwise.
and again this has nothing to do with LEO or anything like that ? some are taking it this way and not sure why
Ummm... because the thread title, and thus the intended focus, is "Mass License Plate Scanner for Patrol Cars".
All else aside, its easy to boil your argument down to:
-Cops are using them. ok, but there have to be safeguards
-I'm not worried about some entities having them(police), but others, notsomuch, and why do they need them anyways?
-There's a potential for misuse(and probably has happened at some point), so the possession and use of this technology must be regulated by someone, somewhere.
Ask yourself, what other technology do we discuss here has naysayers that use the same arguments against us? ;)
I guess what I was trying to say when I said its not against LEO some seem to take it as a personal attack on them ? its not !
but yes you did a great summary of my thoughts :)
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