View Full Version : Best camo for the northeast?
So I did a search for camo and all I came up with were gun related topics. Mods if this is in the wrong forum feel free to move!
So my question is, what do you fellas think is the best camo for the northeastern us? Obviously not including winter. I have always been fond of traditional tiger stripe but the new multicam looks good. I also like the marine corps marpat and air force tiger. So what's everyone's opinion?
some of the hunting "Realistic" camo is very, well, um, realistic... and in a single environment is very effective - I had a doe respond to a fawn call to within a few feet of me and I remained undetected simply sitting on the ground against a brush pile.
however, a lot of these products are not made to a "military" standard or durability or usability.
of the mil type of camo designs, they are developed to be as universal as possible in varying terrain and do a great job in that regard. if you intend to remain in one area predominantly, choose one that works best there. I've found woodland to work well in the NE, as well as multicam but I'm paying attention to ATACS as new color palettes are being developed...
remington79
06-06-12, 15:38
I used to live in NW CT and it was a mix of pines and hard woods. As a result the under story would be very dark. From my experience and my friends who still live there the best camo would be in no order woodland, MARPAT, and the new ATACS FG shows promise. Multicam is too light unless you're in an area that is mostly of hardwoods. The Air Force pattern wouldn't work anywhere, it's a waste of money. From my experience I have found that this holds true for East Texas and North Idaho to. However, you could get by using Multicam in ET though.
I've seen the A-TACS FG in person and it looks really green to me. So much so that I question its efficacy in my AO (Northern Virginia). The A-ATACS AU is more subdued, with mostly brown tones but splashes of green.
remington79
06-06-12, 16:13
I've seen the AU and the brown that is used in it is too light for the AO that the OP is asking about. The browns in MARPAT and Woodland would work but AU is defiantly for an arid area. The coyote brown in MARPAT goes great with dead oak leaves and pine needles.
I think we need more information like what is the camo gear going to be used for and what kind of gear are yoou looking for in camo?
Thanks for the responses. I already have a set of Marpat and it looked like a great camo for the area. Was really just curious what everyone else liked. Why no love for original Tiger stripe? Too much black?
The woodland MARPAT is going to be tough to beat, and among commercial patterns the only way to beat it is going for specific environments. That with OD equipment is really hard to beat, but if the black helps it's great.
Thanks for the responses. I already have a set of Marpat and it looked like a great camo for the area. Was really just curious what everyone else liked. Why no love for original Tiger stripe? Too much black?
yes, too much black... tiger stripe is good if you are in a blind, or blind-like jungle grasses - it is designed to replicate alternating long-leaf and shadow. it's not a "walking-around" camo for open woods. for this you need color blocks.
multicam uses a fine pattern which works up close but also combines into larger color blocks from further away. plain old woodland seems to work pretty well in early season NE woods. something with more brown after the leaves have fallen...
more important is the color palette, rather than the pattern in this situation... as someone said once, look what colors animals are - combinations of brown and gray and they hide incredibly well. I once was watching a deer graze from about 50 ft. then it walked a few steps into some very open scrub oak and incredibly completely disappeared. I knew I was still looking directly at it but my mind could not define what my eyes were seeing into the shape of a deer...
again, what is your use? some of the hunting/commercial camo is incredibly effective in a specific terrain...
I want to add that I think lighter colors than the surrounding vegetation has the potential to work better than darker, or even neutral colors. my reason is the contours and shape of your body create hollows and shadows which darken the overall color underneath and naturally creates large block variations.
a dark pattern becomes a darker solid when one is hunched over or sitting in natural shade. a lighter pattern becomes a smaller slightly darker pattern with dark areas under the arms, chin, etc...
our mind recognizes things by resolving shapes and patterns into coherent images and sometimes, even though we are not able to exactly identify what it is we are looking at, we still know when something "just does not look right" and pay more attention to it. most times, straight horizontal lines do not occur in nature. nor do solid blobs of dark color and so we examine them a little more closely.
anything which diffuses your outline helps to confuse this resolution. I even go so far as to mix camo patterns (top, bottom, gloves and hat) while hunting to avoid being recognized as a coherent 6ft tall, two arm, two leg animal...
HuntingTime
06-08-12, 23:14
I would be one for A-TACS FG. Seeing more photos out in the forest and it is pretty impressive.
These guys did some shots in the jungle, which will vary from Vermont or New Hampshire, but you can still get the point.
http://loadoutroom.com/2345/atacs-fg-in-action-in-the-jungles-and-swamps-of-south-east-asia/
ffhounddog
06-09-12, 09:00
http://www.thecamoshop.com/Pink-Camo-Thong-Pantie/
This would be good cammo for the urban NE.
remington79
06-10-12, 01:25
I just got off the phone with one of my friends who still lives in NW CT. That area is a dark woods and is a mix of pine and hardwoods and can have a dark understory. Out of MARPAT, Woodland, and Multicam MARPAT came in first and Multicam came in last. He said that when he and some of our friends and his cousin did the tests Multicam was too light and stuck out too much. He also said Advantage Timber worked very well. They're in the process of getting together some ATACS FG for testing.
One thing to remember is patterns that are all dark will tend to blob up and not break up your outline. On the other hand you also have to remember that dark colors look farther away and lighter colors look closer.
Lots of good info guys thanks. Looks like Marpat for me.
The_War_Wagon
06-10-12, 17:22
Living in the city, basic black works for me. URBAN camo! :dance3:
You can't go wrong with marpat or multicam. Atacs looks promising as well.
OP hasn't stated what the purpose of the camo will be...it's my understanding that prey animals and humans pick out shapes and patterns differently and also, as someone mentioned, some camo patterns work while stationary but not in motion.
I lived in central PA for 13 years and if I wanted to blend in while hunting I would use Realtree. I never needed to hide from any humans but dressing like the Amish worked for Harrison Ford...at least until he punched that tourist in the face.
I want to add that I think lighter colors than the surrounding vegetation has the potential to work better than darker, or even neutral colors. my reason is the contours and shape of your body create hollows and shadows which darken the overall color underneath and naturally creates large block variations.
a dark pattern becomes a darker solid when one is hunched over or sitting in natural shade. a lighter pattern becomes a smaller slightly darker pattern with dark areas under the arms, chin, etc...
our mind recognizes things by resolving shapes and patterns into coherent images and sometimes, even though we are not able to exactly identify what it is we are looking at, we still know when something "just does not look right" and pay more attention to it. most times, straight horizontal lines do not occur in nature. nor do solid blobs of dark color and so we examine them a little more closely.
anything which diffuses your outline helps to confuse this resolution. I even go so far as to mix camo patterns (top, bottom, gloves and hat) while hunting to avoid being recognized as a coherent 6ft tall, two arm, two leg animal...
This.
Always take into account shadows. Old BDU Woodland is WAY too dark, and so is MARPAT in my opinion.
Atacs FG looks really stellar. Personally, I went to the local military exchange and picked out some Multicam that had more green in it. (by luck of the draw, some MC is very tan). It works great 9 months out if the year.
I just got off the phone with one of my friends who still lives in NW CT. That area is a dark woods and is a mix of pine and hardwoods and can have a dark understory. Out of MARPAT, Woodland, and Multicam MARPAT came in first and Multicam came in last. He said that when he and some of our friends and his cousin did the tests Multicam was too light and stuck out too much. He also said Advantage Timber worked very well. They're in the process of getting together some ATACS FG for testing.
what process did they use for testing? were these done standing/moving in the open, crouched, prone, or sitting in shade?
One thing to remember is patterns that are all dark will tend to blob up and not break up your outline. On the other hand you also have to remember that dark colors look farther away and lighter colors look closer.
agree with the first statement but will have to disagree with the second. as any painter/artist knows, objects in the distance lose definition and tend to blend value (light/dark). dark objects in the landscape appear to be closer while lighter ones appear further away.
as this picture shows, dark patterns will block up and go almost black in shadow and black holes in a natural environment invite further attention.
http://www.specwar.info/maskovaci-vzory/marpat/usmc-exercise-talismans-saber-2007-marpat-woodland.jpg
lighter colors in shadow darken to a more natural dark area than the dreaded black. broken cover and natural shadow areas (below the hat/gear/equipment, under the arms/crotch), create tonal variations that provide blocks with a more natural value separation.
one of the things that I think is missing from Marpat is the inclusion of light/bright areas. even in filtered shade, light glancing off branches and leaves will give highlights that looks more natural. without it, even patterns that are the right color palette for the area block up and look unnatural. multicam and Atacs are doing this very well though I think that multicam, in it's original palette, would not be very suitable for the NE woods.
here is a test with pictures posted on another website that discusses ACU vs Multicam. the first part of the test shows a more arid environment than the NE but the second part shows wooded areas. notice that even though ACU is very light by comparison with other patterns, it does very well in shade. http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1337423
obviously, the palette (colors) should fit in with the environment and this is where some of the photo-realistic hunting camo works extremely well - they can be chosen for the exact area they will be used in. military camo needs to be more of a compromise in that it is used in varied terrain across a huge AO.
the question was asked the OP what his intended use was. if this is for hunting or recreation, I would look for some of the commercial/hunting patterns before I looked at the military ones. my two favorite patterns for northern winter hardwoods are Mossy Oak Breakup in a ground blind and Treestand if I intend to do any sneek and peek. if I'm in more of a pine woods and want to just sit, I like Advantage Timber and Realtree Woodland 20/200. and I mix these patterns more often than not...
remington79
06-12-12, 02:32
ra2bach, thanks for pointing out my error. It looks like I had got some principles of camouflage mixed up when I wrote that statement. I was recovering from a head injury when I wrote that.
As for the testing it was done over different times of day and year and lighting. There was movement and still comparisons. In some instances the camo was laid out side by side and in others it was worn by someone who would go to the same spots with the observers in the same locations.
One time during hunting season my two friends took a break from hunting. One friend set up and the other did a stalk across the woods. The first time he was wearing Multicam. The next weekend at the same time in the same lighting conditions he wore MARPAT. The friend who was the observer in both cases had an easier time finding my other friend when Multicam was worn. He said it was like he glowed. It should be noted that the observer is color blind and can't see red and greens. When he bought an ACOG he bought one with a yellow reticle.
the question was asked the OP what his intended use was. if this is for hunting or recreation, I would look for some of the commercial/hunting patterns before I looked at the military ones.
That's a very good point, particularly given that you have to choose camo both for the region as well as the type of animal (deer, human, etc.) you are trying to conceal yourself from.
What works for one may or may not work for another. For example, humans and turkey see color, while deer, for the most part, see black and white.
ra2bach, thanks for pointing out my error. It looks like I had got some principles of camouflage mixed up when I wrote that statement. I was recovering from a head injury when I wrote that.
As for the testing it was done over different times of day and year and lighting. There was movement and still comparisons. In some instances the camo was laid out side by side and in others it was worn by someone who would go to the same spots with the observers in the same locations.
One time during hunting season my two friends took a break from hunting. One friend set up and the other did a stalk across the woods. The first time he was wearing Multicam. The next weekend at the same time in the same lighting conditions he wore MARPAT. The friend who was the observer in both cases had an easier time finding my other friend when Multicam was worn. He said it was like he glowed. It should be noted that the observer is color blind and can't see red and greens. When he bought an ACOG he bought one with a yellow reticle.
that is interesting that your friend is colorblind and saw multicam very easily...
I don't know what to make of that except to say that colors visible to the eye have two properties - one is the wavelength (color) that it reflects, and two is the value (light/dark). when we take a pigment color (let's say red), if you add pure white, you get a lighter color and adding black you get a darker one, though it is still the same "color"...
I mention this because multicam may use colors that all have the same or similar value and so your colorblind friend may not be able to distinguish the pattern separations due to the colors and see it as mostly a solid. this would effectively remove whatever pattern disruption that this camouflage employs. if all the "values" of this pattern are in a lighter range, then I can see how it would be easily seen by your friend. it might seem like someone was walking around wearing a white sheet :eek:
it's interesting to me because as someone else mentioned, humans and some animal "see" colors differently - some see colors and some see only shades of black and white... it is also known that nocturnal animals and others with good night vision are sensitive to the lower spectrum of UV and some fabrics are printed with UV enhanced colors so they tend to "glow" to these animals.
camo science obviously has taken these factors into consideration, and I know for a fact Crye understands and designed for these issues. in fact, they even have two versions of Multicam - the regular which is tuned for near spectrum IR and the VS version, which is tuned for the visual spectrum only. without knowing which one of these your friend was observing, or if it was the bonafide Crye product being observed (I have seen multicam-like products), it would be hard to guess a cause...
all that said, I can see how Multicam would not be ideal for NE woods...
remington79
06-12-12, 14:10
From what my color blind friend has told us in the past reds and greens are different shades of grays to him. The lighter the green the lighter it appears as gray, the darker the green the darker the gray. In a way kind of like an animal.
From what my color blind friend has told us in the past reds and greens are different shades of grays to him. The lighter the green the lighter it appears as gray, the darker the green the darker the gray. In a way kind of like an animal.
this I understand. but if the "value" (shade) of the red and the green are the same, removing the color, would leave a gray of the same shade, or at least be indistinguishable as to the contrast. at distance, this would appear as a solid.
this is the basis of the colorblindness tests where there is a number or character made of dots imbedded within a collection of other colored dots. the value of the dots is all the same so without color discrimination, they all appear to be the same.
in any case, I don't think I would be using someone who is colorblind to test the efficiency of camo designed to fool human eyes. and to fool animals who are, more or less, colorblind, a pattern made up of different values, as well as colors would maintain the pattern disruption that is part of the design concept of camo...
as you can see in this page from the Multicam website, their claim that it takes on the "color" of the surrounding area, not contrasting pattern disruption, is central to their strategy.
http://www.multicampattern.com/about -- click on "HOW IT WORKS"...
in the AO that Multicam was designed for (Afghanistan), or any other monochromatic open space, color blending, not tonal contrast is more important. and even though contrast would be imparted by partial concealment and shade, I can still see where Multicam would not be ideal in the NE woods...
For the NE exclusively? It would be hard to beat good old woodland or green side MARPAT. High quality 50/50 NYCO BDU's in woodland can he had for a song in most places.
Just keep in mind that camouflage works best if you actually hide. Sometimes when I see these camo debates I think people expect to just stand still in the open disappear like the Predator Alien.
You still have to use the available natural concealment and terrain, and try to stay in the shadows.
Just keep in mind that camouflage works best if you actually hide. Sometimes when I see these camo debates I think people expect to just stand still in the open disappear like the Predator Alien.
You still have to use the available natural concealment and terrain, and try to stay in the shadows.
^ This
For the NE exclusively? It would be hard to beat good old woodland.
^ Not This
Old 90's woodland is way too dark overall. Plus it has black in it, a no-no in camouflage. But it's cheap at least.
Here's a poorly filmed video of some militia dolts playing Army in the woods with BDU's on:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPBHv_4smWw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
RogerinTPA
06-13-12, 23:22
[QUOTE=SMETNA;1327104]^ This
^ Not This
Old 90's woodland is way too dark overall. Plus it has black in it, a no-no in camouflage. But it's cheap at least. <snip>
They normally are when new. Back when I wore them, and when observing others in a woodland field environment, I found that when faded, they worked best. The black takes on a more neutral dark grayish tint. At a distance,it blends in very well. As an Aviator, when landing in an LZ, as long as they didn't move or look up, they were hard to spot. Everything else (weapons, LCE/LBE, E-tool covers, black knee pads, personal black pouches & holsters) stood out more (until they got dirty). You just had to hit them with a rattle can earth tone color, and you'd be GTG.
remington79
06-14-12, 02:01
The tests were also done with my friends cousin who isn't color blind. My friend is using some less expensive multicam. I saw it when it was new and it looked faded and the cloth seemed to have a white fuzz to it. Last week he compared it to one of our other friends newly issued multicam that is fire resistant (he's going overseas later this month) that hasn't been washed and it too has a white fuzz and faded look to it. Nylon gear in multicam is darker and seems to work better.
CADPAT TW for heavier NE foliage.
http://www.a-tacs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/atacsfg_tpc_IMG_3691.jpg
How's this for an Alien invisibility cloak!! :blink:
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.