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View Full Version : LAV Carbine "1" class... What is expected of the student?



Rmplstlskn
01-15-08, 15:19
I have seen it mentioned here a few times that LAV's Carbine 1 class is more like an INTERMEDIATE class with other instructors, and a previous "basic carbine" class is a prerequisite, so before I become "THAT GUY" can someone who has been through this class explain what was expected of you on Day 1 and on?

What does he start off with? Can you list the skill sets he teaches as he progresses through the class?

What should you have down solidly before even thinking of this class?

How physically demanding is this class? (I'm not a lean, mean, fighting machine...)

I noticed a few openings still left in the VA February class but I'm apprehensive that my skills are not up to where they need to be to enter this class or that my fat a$$ may slow me too far down...

I am strong on AR skills but weak on transitions and pistol, and I'm sure El Snatcho rides my back...

Any examples from YOUR classs so I know what to expect?

Rmpl

Jay Cunningham
01-15-08, 15:22
First off, have you read this? (http://www.vickerstactical.com/training/courses_Carbine.htm)

Rmplstlskn
01-15-08, 15:34
First off, have you read this? (http://www.vickerstactical.com/training/courses_Carbine.htm)

Yeah, but it is very basic in description...

It mentions transitions, for example, but not to what level is expected BEFORE you enter the class. Anyone can fuddle through a transition, but is it expected of you to have SOLID SKILLS in transitions and he builds on that?

What does LAV call "timed fire drills?"

Is his class like boot camp where you are go prone, then pop up to kneel/sit then stand and go back to prone, over and over again till your legs are shaking...? (Been through one of those courses before... thought I was back in the Army BT)

I just want some examples of what the two days consisted of...

Rmpl

TOrrock
01-15-08, 16:25
You'll be fine.

It's not boot camp.

Stay safe, have your gear ready to go and be comfortable with it, and listen to Larry instead of screwing around with your gear while he's talking.

You've shot some IDPA and have a good foundation of basic firearms handling.

Sam
01-15-08, 16:35
What does he start off with? Can you list the skill sets he teaches as he progresses through the class?

What should you have down solidly before even thinking of this class?

You should have your weapon zeroed. You should have a sling, a two point sling is fine. You should know the four firearms safety rules. Most importantly don't point your muzzle at anybody and keep your finger off the trigger. You should know how to load your magazines, know the basic operations of your weapon.



How physically demanding is this class? (I'm not a lean, mean, fighting machine...)?

Not very demanding. The oldest student in one of our classes was 60.



I am strong on AR skills but weak on transitions and pistol, and I'm sure El Snatcho rides my back...


Rmpl

He will go over transition and pistol. Bring an open mind. Don't party the night before, get a good night sleep. Go easy on that coffee the morning of the class.

The rest you'll have to experience yourself, I'm not going to give you the spoilers.

Jay Cunningham
01-15-08, 16:40
What Templar said.

I think there are some guys who are psyching themselves out before they even get to one of LAV's classes...

You are there to learn from Larry; it's a class, not an exhibition. You KNOW what a transition is. LAV will teach you the proper technique and when it's appropriate.

Some tips:

put your ammo loose in cans
zero your carbine!
if you want to try out a new whiz-bang gizmo, that's cool but have a known quantity as a B/U
stay switched on, listen to LAV and observe the 4 rules

Most of all, have fun and learn something!

C4IGrant
01-15-08, 16:42
Ok, on day one, the first thing he does is line everyone up with their AR's in hand. He then has everyone throw their (beloved) AR over their shoulder and let them hit the deck. Whatever falls off is not needed.

Then, he puts you in push up position for a good 50 count singing the Star Spangled Banner.

After that, it is cold bore shots at 500yds shooting at golf balls. If you miss, you have to run one lap around the range with your pants around your ankles sucking your thumb.

Day two and three are much harder than day one.



C4

Sam
01-15-08, 16:53
What does LAV call "timed fire drills?"

Is his class like boot camp where you are go prone, then pop up to kneel/sit then stand and go back to prone, over and over again till your legs are shaking...? (Been through one of those courses before... thought I was back in the Army BT)

Rmpl

Timed fire drills is he'll tell you to fire X many shots in Y seconds (called PAR time). Another version is, fire X shots and you'll be timed from the buzzer until last shot. Have you shot any competition, like IDPA or USPSA? Those are examples of timed drills.

No boot camp stuff. Although there may be a little jogging involved, mainly 25 yds at a time.

TOrrock
01-15-08, 16:53
I've shot with you man, believe me, you'll be fine.

This is a basic class, all you really need is an open mind and a carbine that's sighted in.
(plus sling, ammo, hearing and eye protection).

You'll enjoy the hell out of this class, believe me. :cool:

This is a Level 1 class, there are no physical pre-requisites, I'm high drag and loooowwww speed, and I did OK.

Sam
01-15-08, 16:55
Ok, on day one, the first thing he does is line everyone up with their AR's in hand. He then has everyone throw their (beloved) AR over their shoulder and let them hit the deck. Whatever falls off is not needed.

Then, he puts you in push up position for a good 50 count singing the Star Spangled Banner.

After that, it is cold bore shots at 500yds shooting at golf balls. If you miss, you have to run one lap around the range with your pants around your ankles sucking your thumb.

Day two and three are much harder than day one.



C4

Hahahaha. That must be the combat wombat ninja level 8 class.

C4IGrant
01-15-08, 16:59
Hahahaha. That must be the combat wombat ninja level 8 class.


I am level 8 on the Ninja chart. :D



C4

Rmplstlskn
01-15-08, 18:43
Ok, on day one, the first thing he does is line everyone up with their AR's in hand. He then has everyone throw their (beloved) AR over their shoulder and let them hit the deck. Whatever falls off is not needed.

Then, he puts you in push up position for a good 50 count singing the Star Spangled Banner.

After that, it is cold bore shots at 500yds shooting at golf balls. If you miss, you have to run one lap around the range with your pants around your ankles sucking your thumb.

Day two and three are much harder than day one.



C4

Doh! :rolleyes:
I asked for it....

Rmplstlskn
01-15-08, 19:01
This is a basic class, all you really need is an open mind and a carbine that's sighted in.
(plus sling, ammo, hearing and eye protection).

You'll enjoy the hell out of this class, believe me. :cool:

This is a Level 1 class, there are no physical pre-requisites, I'm high drag and loooowwww speed, and I did OK.

Got the sighted in carbine and all the other stuff... It will be good test for the new Sabre 16" middy with my wife's new Colt 6520 as a backup.

You convinced me... I sent Dave an email.

Now, if I can keep the blizzardy snow away till after the February class...

Rmpl

NCPatrolAR
01-15-08, 19:29
Ok, on day one, the first thing he does is line everyone up with their AR's in hand. He then has everyone throw their (beloved) AR over their shoulder and let them hit the deck. Whatever falls off is not needed.

Then, he puts you in push up position for a good 50 count singing the Star Spangled Banner.

After that, it is cold bore shots at 500yds shooting at golf balls. If you miss, you have to run one lap around the range with your pants around your ankles sucking your thumb.

Day two and three are much harder than day one.



C4


But when do you learn to fight? ;)

Jay Cunningham
01-15-08, 19:43
But when do you learn to fight? ;)

You only learn that after you first get fitted for your shemagh.

Heavy Metal
01-15-08, 19:53
If you want to score bonus points with Larry, just to remember to always load my magazines for me.

Don't bother Larry with why he strongly approves of this behavior as he considers asking him this question to be highly un-cool. Just accept this as a positive thing and drive on.

Just remember, that keeping my mags topped off will show Larry what a stand-up guy you are!

Rmplstlskn
01-16-08, 11:39
Just remember, that keeping my mags topped off will show Larry what a stand-up guy you are!

Speaking of loading magazines....

For his class, is having a bunch of fully loaded magazines ready to go the BEST SOLUTION?

I keep 10 PMAGS unloaded for use in training and I could easily unload another 10 or more of the EXPENSIVE STUFF (MK262 seconds) to use as well, so I could easily have 20 PMAGS pre-loaded before I even got there...

Then I have over 30 USGI mags I could load up as well...

Seems like that would save me a lot of time loading mags... more time learning.

Good idea?

Rmpl

TOrrock
01-16-08, 11:48
Speaking of loading magazines....

For his class, is having a bunch of fully loaded magazines ready to go the BEST SOLUTION?

I keep 10 PMAGS unloaded for use in training and I could easily unload another 10 or more of the EXPENSIVE STUFF (MK262 seconds) to use as well, so I could easily have 20 PMAGS pre-loaded before I even got there...

Then I have over 30 USGI mags I could load up as well...

Seems like that would save me a lot of time loading mags... more time learning.

Good idea?

Rmpl




Wouldn't hurt. Keep at least one mag back empty and some loose rounds though.

Sam
01-16-08, 11:55
If you have enough magazines to preload for the entire class, that would be excellent. You wouldn't have to bother with loading during the class and you can spend that precious time hydrating and listening for important tidbits.

subzero
01-16-08, 14:52
For his class, is having a bunch of fully loaded magazines ready to go the BEST SOLUTION?

Speaking only for the classes at South Hill...

There's plenty of time when your squad isn't on the line that you could shoot the class with just a couple of magazines. You'd have time to reload if you chose to go that route. Bring a can of ammo up to the 25yd line so you can reload close.

Having said that, bringing a bunch of loaded mags allows you to spend a LOT more time on the line when people are learning. While everyone else is reloading, you grab 2 or 3 fresh mags, dump the empties, and get back on the line to watch and listen while instruction is being given to the other group of shooters. You can reload those empties during water or food breaks.

That has been the route I've taken for my last few classes. I show up with ~20 or so loaded AR mags and every pistol mag I can get my hands on. In my eyes, this lets you get twice as much in, even if you aren't pulling the trigger. Keep your ears and eyes open and you'll walk away with a bunch of info.

Heavy Metal
01-16-08, 19:30
The less time you are stuffing mags, the happier you will be. I plan on preloading many hundred rounds for the class.

Like Templar said, a couple of empty mags for malfunction drills and the like.

Harv
01-16-08, 20:20
I take 25 loaded mags and the rest of my ammo on strippers..

The only time I load mags is at lunch and the end of day 1 and 2..
and that takes me a whole 10 mins (if I put a stop watch to it) to reload.

When I come off the line after a series of drills, I pitch the empties and partials in a bag, and top off with full ones..

allows you to listen and learn and hydrate and snack.

Everyone else covered it.. You know most of it, he's going to teach you how to do it better....

ron556
01-18-08, 17:16
preloading all the mags you need is excellent. if you don't have that many, i would also recommend a LULA mag loader; very helpful.

it would also behoove you to know who makes the best sling ever created and be able to recite it on command… ;)

if you don't know, just ask templar.:D

MX5
01-21-08, 09:51
Ensure zero and weapon/mag/ammo combination is RELIABLE beforehand. You don't want to waste your time and hard earned money with functioning issues that could have been prevented. If you fall behind, no one will be having any fun. Enjoy

recon
01-21-08, 10:49
it would also behoove you to know who makes the best sling ever created and be able to recite it on command… ;)

if you don't know, just ask templar.:D


Okay Templar who is it?

C4IGrant
01-21-08, 11:08
Okay Templar who is it?

The Vickers 2 point (duh)! :D



C4

TOrrock
01-21-08, 11:38
Okay Templar who is it?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Arsenal%20SLR-106FR/DSC00011.jpg

C4IGrant
01-21-08, 11:43
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Arsenal%20SLR-106FR/DSC00011.jpg

There can be only one!



C4


http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/BFG/AK%20sling%20mounted.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/BFG/Vickers%20GR%20version%20mounted.jpg

John_Wayne777
01-21-08, 12:17
Speaking of loading magazines....

For his class, is having a bunch of fully loaded magazines ready to go the BEST SOLUTION?


It's not a bad idea, but it isn't necessary. LAV doesn't have you blaze away all day. He actually keeps the shot counts low with an emphasis on every shot being a quality shot.

You'll have plenty of time to load magazines if you've got loose ammo and a LULA.




Seems like that would save me a lot of time loading mags... more time learning.

Good idea?

Rmpl

It's up to you. You won't need to keep that many loaded magazines to keep up in LAV's class unless he's dramatically changed his style since I took the AK and the low light course. (Doubtful)

My best advice would be to keep your reloading kit as close to the instructor as possible so that when you are loading mags you can hear what he says in-between drills and in response to questions.

Some of the best info you'll ever get is in the breaks.

....just don't ask him about titanium firing pins.

Jay Cunningham
01-21-08, 12:31
....just don't ask him about titanium firing pins.

+1 :D

Agree on the magazines. Really, unless the whole class in onboard with many pre-loaded mags, the weakest link will determine the reloading breaks. I usually run with 3 rifle mags on the chest, one in the gun and maybe one in an emergency pouch on my support side. I keep loose rounds in my right front pocket.

As was mentioned, it helps to keep at least one empty available for certain drills.

recon
01-21-08, 12:34
Okay what is the prefered set up for rigs? Chest or vest rigs?

Failure2Stop
01-21-08, 14:48
Okay what is the prefered set up for rigs? Chest or vest rigs?

It depends, what is your preference?

What is the purpose of the training for you?

If you are a mil/le guy your requirements and gains from the instruction will be different than the average homeowner. Train in the gear you expect to fight in.

Of course, I doubt that Joe Homeowner is going to dive through his bedroom door in an assault suit and CIRAS. Neither should he arrive to any training course dressed in a bathrobe and bunny slippers.

A decent chest rig (Eagle or similar quality) will take care of civilians. The dedicated vest rigs (ala Blackhawk!) are generally a poor choice for anyone. The better choices are generally difficult to come by, and the Tactical Gear thread contains excellent information on the subject.

C4IGrant
01-21-08, 14:52
Okay what is the prefered set up for rigs? Chest or vest rigs?


Neither really. Mags on a belt are just fine.


C4

Bulldog1967
01-21-08, 16:00
Bring plenty of windex so that when you lick the window it is pre-cleaned. :D

John_Wayne777
01-21-08, 17:34
Okay what is the prefered set up for rigs? Chest or vest rigs?

I use an Eagle duty belt. I've used it for years without issue. It may not be the coolest looking setup, but it's versatile and more than sufficient for my needs.

IrishDevil
01-21-08, 19:34
I took the Carbine/Pistol class in TX this last weekend, this was my first formal training. It F'n Rocked! I'll get an AAR up once I get my thoughts together. As long as you're somewhat competent with a rifle, you'll be fine. Just listen to what he says and you'll see the light, eventually. I did the class with 12 P-Mags and 8 pistol mags, and ran a belt system. I never ran out of ammo, you get plenty of time to load mags between relays and on water/food breaks.

Sam
01-21-08, 19:45
....just don't ask him about titanium firing pins.

Oh come on, let his ask. While at it, ask him about two stage match trigger too :)

Rmplstlskn
01-22-08, 14:49
Oh come on, let his ask. While at it, ask him about two stage match trigger too :)

He should write a book... and get rich. I'd buy it... :)

"Military Firearms & Gear: What Works, What Doesn't, and What is "Dear Jesus!" Dumb", by LAV

Rmpl

gyp_c2
01-23-08, 15:36
...the photo would be LAV takin' a knee, head on fist...http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif