View Full Version : SBR questions (Hoping someone familiar with Noveske will weigh in)
I am torn between 10.5 and 12.5 inch barrels. I like the look of the 10.5 much better, and thats 2 more inches of maneuverability.
The rifle will be a Noveske, and I trust that since they have a video of a 10.5 dumping 3 beta-C's since half a decade ago, they know how to make one run, as well as a 12.5.
My question is: I don't want to run a brake. I really just don't. It's obnoxious as hell without a suppressor, and while this is a dedicated suppressor gun, I may at some point want to shoot it without one. I would like to do that with a flash-hider.
Will the 10.5" eat a blast-baffle exponentially quicker than a 12.5"?
Will the 12.5" stabilize rounds a lot better than the 10.5"? I mean, if it will cut my chances of a baffle-strike in half, I'm all for it, but if it reduces them by 1% or something, well, whatever. I want to be able to shoot 70gr TSX or 77gr MK262 without fear.
I am going to be running a Surefire 556-212 suppressor. Assuming I use a 212A flash-hider (the one that looks like a big A2 kindof), will shooting the weapon be nearly negligent in the damage it causes to the suppressor, or will I just cut a 30,000 round service-life down to say, 20,000 rounds (arbitrary numbers). I don't plan on back to back mag-dumps and I don't have an RDIAS. Firing schedule would be, at the "worst", similar to a carbine course following range-commands (i.e. not dumping a Beta-mag into the berm showing off or whatnot).
Also, is there a point to a Switchblock on a 10.5 or 12.5" rifle, or is it going to be dirty as hell and blow-back in my face like crazy no-matter what? Do they blow-back at noticeably without the switchblock in SBR configuration, or not like a longer barrel (I know it's going to get dirty regardless, I am mainly concerned with blow-back and reliability both suppressed, and un-suppressed)?
Further, I am worried about the suppressor mount coming loose. Noveske is building the gun, so I know it will be torqued to spec and Rockset used. However, is this one of those "you really need to keep an eye on it..." type things, or is it "It's on, now forget about it until you decide to change it. They only come loose when bubbah does 'em in his garage." ? I ask this because I wonder if having whatever I go with pinned is good insurance for my suppressor, or just over-thinking it. I have wondered this ever since a guy had a baffle-strike and posted about it on here due to his suppressor mount coming loose. He attached it--not Noveske).
I know, these are probably something heard often, but after searching I didn't find the answers pro or con that I was after. Please bear with me, I did use the "Search" button on this and other sites (silencertalk).
Noveske 12.5". One of the most capable barrel lengths they make, with Mk262 they have got legs, and are still handy enough in close quarters. Parituclarly since the 12.5" with Switchblock setups are so impressively nice.
A rocksett attached 212A will be a nonissue. Still look at it, but most errors are from improperly installing the can on the muzzle device.
Also, 10.5" barrel erosion is a fair bit more noticeable - there's a thread in the ARFCOM archive where, iirc, Major Malfunction Munitions ran a 10.5" and a 12.5" and checked first baffle erosion, and there was a marked difference.
A 12.5" Noveske with 556k is probably the 'if I only had one rifle' solution for most anything. Then again, this is coming from somebody with a 10.5" with an OPS M4S...
Noveske 12.5". One of the most capable barrel lengths they make, with Mk262 they have got legs, and are still handy enough in close quarters. Parituclarly since the 12.5" with Switchblock setups are so impressively nice.
A rocksett attached 212A will be a nonissue. Still look at it, but most errors are from improperly installing the can on the muzzle device.
Also, 10.5" barrel erosion is a fair bit more noticeable - there's a thread in the ARFCOM archive where, iirc, Major Malfunction Munitions ran a 10.5" and a 12.5" and checked first baffle erosion, and there was a marked difference.
A 12.5" Noveske with 556k is probably the 'if I only had one rifle' solution for most anything. Then again, this is coming from somebody with a 10.5" with an OPS M4S...
Thanks! Now I just have to ask noveske really sweet like if they can build me one. I want one identical to the crusader w vis and sb, but using their Chrome lined barrel instead. I hope they will say yes.
I received my 10.5" CQB 5.56mm W/VIS & SWITCHBLOCK last week and the flash hider is threaded for a quick-attach suppressor. The Switchblock has 3 settings: Normal, Suppressed and off.
Noveske will not sell anything that doesn't work so whatever length you decide you should be good to go.
I received my 10.5" CQB 5.56mm W/VIS & SWITCHBLOCK last week and the flash hider is threaded for a quick-attach suppressor. The Switchblock has 3 settings: Normal, Suppressed and off.
Noveske will not sell anything that doesn't work so whatever length you decide you should be good to go.
I want the 12.5, they just don't advertise it the way I want it. They have a stainless gun, but not one Chrome lined. They do offer the barrel length and with sb, just not configured with vis and sb togather on the Chrome lined model. Basically, I need a barrel swap to get what I want. Will call in am.
Noveske does not do custom builds for individuals. I've asked them for specific setups a couple of times...
Noveske does not do custom builds for individuals. I've asked them for specific setups a couple of times...
Looks like I have to wait until they advertise the combo I guess. I have no idea why they offer it in stainless and not Chrome lined.
I wonder why they offer the build on SS and not CL barrels?
I wonder why they offer the build on SS and not CL barrels?
They have the barrels and other parts. I will call and ask, maybe its just not advertised on the site right now. Well, eta: I know they can and do make em! http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/NVR-LGPV-556-SB.aspx
I know they have everything for it, maybe its just not available at the moment. I love my VIS & SWB, but do wish that the rail extended out further. The 10.5" SS seems to be the only model that still covers a decent amount of the barrel with rail space.
Either way I'd put the new NSR on any upcoming Noveske build, personally.
I know they have everything for it, maybe its just not available at the moment. I love my VIS & SWB, but do wish that the rail extended out further. The 10.5" SS seems to be the only model that still covers a decent amount of the barrel with rail space.
Either way I'd put the new NSR on any upcoming Noveske build, personally.
Dunno if the offer it, and I have no mounts or idea where to buy them to fit it for my light
Dunno if the offer it, and I have no mounts or idea where to buy them to fit it for my light
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?cat=164
Handguards and rail sections available (until direct keymod attachments come out).
I'd get this.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=lslp-556-sb&cat=136&page=1&search=&since=&status=&title=
I'd get this.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=lslp-556-sb&cat=136&page=1&search=&since=&status=&title=
Velocity loss isn't a big deal to me, and I like the 10.5, but I am worried that with 77gr otm I might get a baffle strike, or be more likely to, and a 10.5 with a comp unsuppressed would be a nightmare, and with a fh, would eat my blast baffle alive. Are my fears for ky blast baffle with a fh unfounded? Baffle strike fears? What about reliability vs. 12.5?
IMO the whole internet panic of baffle erosion is largely overblown. and with any of the brakes that are going to help with this, they are going to blast your socks off with 12.5 as much as with 10.5 would.
IMO the whole internet panic of baffle erosion is largely overblown. and with any of the brakes that are going to help with this, they are going to blast your socks off with 12.5 as much as with 10.5 would.
I'm wanting to run a fh regardless. Is there much difference between 10.5 and 12.5 in the erosion department? What about baffle strikes and reliability?
Eurodriver
06-11-12, 08:18
I'm wanting to run a fh regardless. Is there much difference between 10.5 and 12.5 in the erosion department?
Yes. 12.5" is less.
What about baffle strikes and reliability?
If its a Noveske, no.
.....
Leaning toward the 12.5" because empirical data, pictures, and first-hand account seems to indicate that it's a big step up from 10.5" in every way but 2" less maneuverability.
I believe the SBR maneuverability thing is overblown. SOF units have been doing CQB for years just fine with 14.5" uppers. If I were getting in and out of cars a lot (which I don't), I'd go as short as possible, but between 10.5" and 12.5" I'd go with 12.5". I have a Noveske 12.5" upper and Daniel Defense 12.5" and they're both awesome.
Don't get me wrong- I love SBRs, but the fact that most trainers I've taken classes from that were previously at the pointy tip of the spear units are using 16" barrels is a clue.
What makes you think that the 77gr. OTM round is going to cause a bafflestrike? I would be ALOT more concerned about some Tula/Wolf shit causing a baffle strike than 77gr. OTM ammo.
Velocity loss isn't a big deal to me, and I like the 10.5, but I am worried that with 77gr otm I might get a baffle strike, or be more likely to, and a 10.5 with a comp unsuppressed would be a nightmare, and with a fh, would eat my blast baffle alive. Are my fears for ky blast baffle with a fh unfounded? Baffle strike fears? What about reliability vs. 12.5?
My 12.5" Kino with AAC 18T hider is more than compact enough and considerably less brutal to the ears for sure than most of the 10.5's I have shot.
Leaning toward the 12.5" because empirical data, pictures, and first-hand account seems to indicate that it's a big step up from 10.5" in every way but 2" less maneuverability.
My 12.5" Kino with AAC 18T hider is more than compact enough and considerably less brutal to the ears for sure than most of the 10.5's I have shot.
Will a switch-block be nice, or is it diminished returns on an sbr, as compared to longer barrels?
Well I had a nice long (hopefully helpful) post typed out for you, and then lost it thanks to my computer...damn.
But here's a little bit of it for you.
First, my suggestion is to determine what exactly you will be using your SBR for? What's the "mission"?
HD/CQB at normal CQB type distances...go for the 10.5"
GP rifle with maybe some HD/CQB thrown in...go for the 12.5"
Only exception I can think of is if you aren't married to the SF 212 suppressor yet, then look into some reflex type suppressors such as Ops Inc. that will keep the overall length down, allowing you to use a longer barrel (12.5) and keep it shorter than a 16" rifle. You'd get the best of both worlds. This is what I did with my Noveske SBR (which is unfortunately still waiting on forms)
Baffle strikes are only a concern if your barrel threads aren't concentric, MD is improperly installed, or the suppressor wasn't put on right...or shitty ammo. Stay with good brands/components and you will be just fine.
Also, since you asked about stability, just know that there have been guys who have made kills out at 600 yds with a 10.5". Obviously the round would be way below fragmentation threshold, but at least the bullet is still going to be supersonic out that far (with a 1/7 twist barrel)
As far as MB vs. FH, if you go 12.5", then FH will be fine. 10.5", I would want the MB to protect my suppressor....unless of course you're one of those who look at a suppressor as a wear item. I don't. I would MUCH rather have a $100 MB be the wear item than my $1000 suppressor! Also, since you said this will be dedicated suppressed, I don't think it matters much what you decide to put on the end of the muzzle.
Switchblock. Definitely not diminishing returns. IMO, a suppressed SBR "needs" it more so than the longer barrels. If you want to limit gas blowback and make for a softer shooting rifle, then its a great addition. Another option is the fairly new Syrac Ordnance Adjustable GB. Everything I hear is that it's rock solid, holds its adjustment, and just plain works. If you don't like the adjustable GB idea, then you could always cut out a section of the top rail on the VIS to fit a SB if you wanted to get a longer railed VIS...some guys have done this with their MK18's.
Either way, my suggestion would be to go with the standard GB first, shoot it, and then determine if you even need the SB...unless of course you just want the SB out of the gate.
Well I had a nice long (hopefully helpful) post typed out for you, and then lost it thanks to my computer...damn.
That always pisses me off, thanks for re-typing!
But here's a little bit of it for you.
First, my suggestion is to determine what exactly you will be using your SBR for? What's the "mission"?
Fighting off ninja's. Mil-spec. Mission capable.
Okay, honest with myself? The range. Conversation piece. Hog hunting. Plinking. Carbine course. Home defense. Car-gun on a road trip where the destination is a house/secure location (not leaving it in my car/hotel while I go out to eat/whatever)
HD/CQB at normal CQB type distances...go for the 10.5"
GP rifle with maybe some HD/CQB thrown in...go for the 12.5"
My aversion to the 10.5" is reliability concerns, and my blast baffle dying much faster (I don't plan on running a brake).
Only exception I can think of is if you aren't married to the SF 212 suppressor yet, then look into some reflex type suppressors such as Ops Inc. that will keep the overall length down, allowing you to use a longer barrel (12.5) and keep it shorter than a 16" rifle. You'd get the best of both worlds. This is what I did with my Noveske SBR (which is unfortunately still waiting on forms)
I'm married to it in that I have it in-hand, and don't want to pay another $1500 (can+stamp). If I were to do that, I would go .300 BLK and...stop. Don't discuss this with my wallet. :mad:
Baffle strikes are only a concern if your barrel threads aren't concentric, MD is improperly installed, or the suppressor wasn't put on right...or shitty ammo. Stay with good brands/components and you will be just fine.
Also, since you asked about stability, just know that there have been guys who have made kills out at 600 yds with a 10.5". Obviously the round would be way below fragmentation threshold, but at least the bullet is still going to be supersonic out that far (with a 1/7 twist barrel)
As far as MB vs. FH, if you go 12.5", then FH will be fine. 10.5", I would want the MB to protect my suppressor....unless of course you're one of those who look at a suppressor as a wear item. It's a wear-item. Just like the tires on my car. I DRIVE my car. I still only lost 3/32 of treat on the rear tires on 140 treadware rated tires in the last 5K miles. What I mean is, I brake for balance and accelerate out of corners. I don't do burn-outs in parking lots. I treat my firearms the same way, if you catch my analogy. I don't. I would MUCH rather have a $100 MB be the wear item than my $1000 suppressor! Also, since you said this will be dedicated suppressed, I don't think it matters much what you decide to put on the end of the muzzle. It will be dedicated suppressed, in that this is the primary goal (hence the SBR instead of just running my 14.5 pinned). However, I estimate I will shoot it unsuppressed maybe 25% of the time.
Switchblock. Definitely not diminishing returns. IMO, a suppressed SBR "needs" it more so than the longer barrels. If you want to limit gas blowback and make for a softer shooting rifle, then its a great addition. Another option is the fairly new Syrac Ordnance Adjustable GB. Everything I hear is that it's rock solid, holds its adjustment, and just plain works. If you don't like the adjustable GB idea, then you could always cut out a section of the top rail on the VIS to fit a SB if you wanted to get a longer railed VIS...some guys have done this with their MK18's. I am not very handy with re-anodizing something. I will probably go with the OEM setup from Noveske with the 7" VIS. This leaves about 3" from the face of the selector to the back of the suppressor. Given the method Surefire cans use to attach (screw the back part on, unlike AAC's "button press to release), I think it's not a bad idea. Also will keep me from being an idiot and grabbing the can accidentally if it were near "flush" with the rail. I wish the gap were less, but will 2.75-3" be an eye-sore?
Either way, my suggestion would be to go with the standard GB first, shoot it, and then determine if you even need the SB...unless of course you just want the SB out of the gate.
I want the SB out of the gate because buying it first is cheaper by far than adding it later, and I never heard of anyone wishing they didn't have it.
Awesome man sounds like you're going to have a good setup either way. Just know that whether you get a 10.5" or 12.5" from Noveske, you'll be good to go as far as reliability is concerned.
Awesome man sounds like you're going to have a good setup either way. Just know that whether you get a 10.5" or 12.5" from Noveske, you'll be good to go as far as reliability is concerned.
I would like the 10.5'', just concerned about the suppressor/blast baffle and worried it may be more prone to a baffle strike.
All the answers to your concerns are contained within ;)
I called Noveske, they put to rest my concerns about reliability, etc. regarding the 10.5" SBR. I will probably go this route. I just need to call my dealer now so he can call them and order it :)
The only nagging thing that concerns me is 10.5" + Flashhider + Surefire 556-212 = Can loses ability to attenuate fast?
I don't plan on dumping a bunch of mags through it, and I would like AT LEAST a 10-15K round service-life before it gains more than 3-4dB in sound.
Looks like I have to wait until they advertise the combo I guess. I have no idea why they offer it in stainless and not Chrome lined.
Not true...they have built me 2 custom guns just last year.
Well, I went with the 12.5". My reason was this:
-150fps more
-half as much wear based on the photo's MM posted of a brake-baffle on each.
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/gi57/M4-2000/P4141817.jpg
vs
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l69/armorgod/brake.jpg
Went with Vltor MUR/VIS with Switchblock setup.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=125v-556-sb&cat=120&page=1&search=&since=&status=&title=
Eurodriver
06-12-12, 07:21
Good choice. Girls love 12.5", 10.3" just isn't enough.
http://i45.tinypic.com/2w2e90o.jpg
Good choice. Girls love 12.5", 10.3" just isn't enough.
http://i45.tinypic.com/2w2e90o.jpg
Much thanks! Is that a standard carbine-length gas system? M4-2000? I am trying to gauge how much "gap" I will have from the front of my SB to the back of my Surefire. It looks a lot "less" than I thought. Looks really good!
The Switchblock does more on shorter barrels. If it will be often/mainly shot suppressed I recommend it.
The Switchblock does more on shorter barrels. If it will be often/mainly shot suppressed I recommend it.
I'm left handed and get a lot of blowback through the ejection port when I run a can. Does the switchblock reduce the amount of gas coming out of the the ejection port?
I'm left handed and get a lot of blowback through the ejection port when I run a can. Does the switchblock reduce the amount of gas coming out of the the ejection port?
I'm not toddk, but yes, it does. Go YouTube some videos of it in use. There is a good one with a guy demoing it on a 14.5, and you clearly see less smoke from the port with it set to "suppressed".
Eurodriver
06-12-12, 16:58
Much thanks! Is that a standard carbine-length gas system? M4-2000? I am trying to gauge how much "gap" I will have from the front of my SB to the back of my Surefire. It looks a lot "less" than I thought. Looks really good!
Yep. Carbine length gas, M4-2000, 12.5" barrel, AAC Blackout Flash hider 51t
66427vette
06-15-12, 17:01
[QUOTE=scooter22;1325093]Noveske does not do custom builds for individuals. I've asked them for specific setups a couple of times...[/QUOTE
They did for me and I am no one special.
[QUOTE=scooter22;1325093]Noveske does not do custom builds for individuals. I've asked them for specific setups a couple of times...[/QUOTE
They did for me and I am no one special.
I'm getting what I wanted, it's just a guy grabbing one barrel instead of the other. Nothing fancy. My SBR is ordered and now I'm just waiting on it to be built and the paperwork began. Maybe in a year I can post pictures :(
I really wish that someone had a reflex can with a good QD mount, though. Surefire killed theirs, as did AAC. Why, I wonder, not to derail my own thread.
I really wish that someone had a reflex can with a good QD mount, though. Surefire killed theirs, as did AAC. Why, I wonder, not to derail my own thread.
Ops Inc has probably the best mounting system out there for a reflex can...and honestly, you'll probably only spend an extra 10 seconds threading it on than you would the "QD" attachment of AAC or SF.
And, as you prob know, there's no such thing as "QD" after dumping a few rounds through the can ;)
Well...waiting.
Slow government.
Waiting.
Anyone have any pictures of suppressed 12.5" SBR's with the VIS/Switchblock combo to tease me with while I wait, post 'em up!
If your getting blowback, take a look at the new BCM Gunfighter CH's. They've been redesigned to address the issue. Like the Gassbuster, only cooler.
If your getting blowback, take a look at the new BCM Gunfighter CH's. They've been redesigned to address the issue. Like the Gassbuster, only cooler.
Not in my experience. It's just a better quality/more rigid CH with a much better latch. No "gas channeling" features at all.
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