View Full Version : What brand of flashlights contend with Surefire?
In terms of quality, warranty, lumens, features, etc....
I have two Surefires and am looking for something new...
In terms of quality, warranty, lumens, features, etc....
I have two Surefires and am looking for something new...
What's wrong with Streamlight? I vastly prefer SL over SF.
mallowpufft
06-10-12, 18:43
Check out Elzetta lights. They use malkoff heads and put out some nice lights.
I've also heard good things about the inforce WML.
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SWATcop556
06-10-12, 19:12
I never bought into the Surefire pricing and hype until I took a class with one of their reps and really got to see what exactly goes into the R&D for their lights. They might be a bit behind others when it comes to features but you know when a Surefire light hits the market it's ready to go and will be bombproof.
I've wanted to like Streamlight for a long time but three of the four Streamlight products I own have all shit the bed. Just can't see buying any more when a few more dollars gets me a light that lasts.
With a new LED upgrade my 10 year old 9P still rocks as a solid go-to light.
Unfortunately, none IMO. Their pricing is high, but they are bombproof.
Across the product line, nobody.
For EDC mini lights, it's possible to beat the E1BLED based on features
For IR/White WML's Inforce has a contender
For Railed Pistol Lights the TLR-1 is a good value
I've been meaning to take a picture of my current pistols and carbines - 7 X300's (4 Pistol, 3 Carbine), 2 M300's, 2 X600's, and two VTAC L4 E2D's, in addition to 5 or so G2's and an old SF IMPL. The only other lights I have are headlamps, or the lone TLR-1 that fits an STI GP6 that an X300 will not.
lethal dose
06-10-12, 20:32
Elzetta.
What's wrong with Streamlight? I vastly prefer SL over SF.
Streamlight has shown some signs of improvement, and there are some bright spots in the product line. Still, they meet the exacting standards of only the lowest common denominator.
The Malkoff MD2 is just as good compared to the 6P or similar size SF lights. I'd carry SF and Malkoff on and off duty. SF has waaaayyyy more options as far as lumens, size and style of lights tho.
The Malkoff MD2 is just as good compared to the 6P or similar size SF lights. I'd carry SF and Malkoff on and off duty. SF has waaaayyyy more options as far as lumens, size and style of lights tho.
Here's my pairing of SF and MD. These two together could probably be a contender? :p
http://i987.photobucket.com/albums/ae360/chc_hmc/SFM2MDM61W.jpg
I never bought into the Surefire pricing and hype until I took a class with one of their reps and really got to see what exactly goes into the R&D for their lights. They might be a bit behind others when it comes to features but you know when a Surefire light hits the market it's ready to go and will be bombproof.
I've wanted to like Streamlight for a long time but three of the four Streamlight products I own have all shit the bed. Just can't see buying any more when a few more dollars gets me a light that lasts.
With a new LED upgrade my 10 year old 9P still rocks as a solid go-to light.
This pretty much sums up my experience. I don't exactly appreciate SF prices, but nothing pisses me off more than a light that doesn't work when you need it. I just pony up for these necessities now.
patriot_man
06-17-12, 10:31
Flashlight wise I can't think of anyone although Inforce is making quite a giant leap into the weaponlight/ handheld light arena.
As for helmet lights Princeton tec would be a contender.
Traveshamockery
06-17-12, 11:21
I would be interested in opinions on Elzetta lights. I bought one because they're a local company, and it's served me well, but I haven't demanded that much of it yet.
Acknowledging their line is not as diverse as Surefire's, how are they built, and how's their quality?
mrosamilia
06-17-12, 11:38
Insight not on par??
SF customer service is really good too.
I bought an aviator years ago. The light went out in about 3 days. Called them and before I could finish my sentence they were telling me they are sending me a new bulb assembly. That one is still running.
This light was before leds became the norm.
Insight would be my second choice. But all my lights are SF.
HDS lights are pretty sweet. Also US made, not a straight "tactical" light though.
elzetta is up there, they contain malkoff emitters which are great, and US made.
Honestly though there's enough surefire 6 series lights floating around that you may as well buy a used one and put in your own malkoff head.
Here's my pairing of SF and MD. These two together could probably be a contender? :p
http://i987.photobucket.com/albums/ae360/chc_hmc/SFM2MDM61W.jpg
what model light is that?
Grand58742
06-17-12, 13:51
I've had great experiences with the Pelican M6 series. I don't know about engineering and research that goes into it like other companies, but it's been on par with my G2 and C2 Surefires for function, lumen output and battery life as well as being utterly unbreakable. It's been my go to light on duty for the past five years. And cheaper than the high end Surefires as well.
Littlelebowski
06-17-12, 14:35
The new pricing is making me look at alternatives to SF.
unclerandy
06-17-12, 15:21
I am a big fan of Fenix lights!
The new pricing is making me look at alternatives to SF.
1+ to this. Over the years I've gotten some decent deals on my SF lights, but those deals are getting few and far between. I bought my X300 for $149, now they are going for $275. I'd love a second once for my wife's pistol, but at that price it ain't happening unless I find a deal on a used or PD return or something.
Surefires are not bombproof, my buddy's got blown in half by an IED in trashcanistan.
They are good, but not bombproof
I would be interested in opinions on Elzetta lights. I bought one because they're a local company, and it's served me well, but I haven't demanded that much of it yet.
Acknowledging their line is not as diverse as Surefire's, how are they built, and how's their quality?
They appear to be built like a tank and in a pinch, they serve as a hammer. At fist I thought it was just for show, but we did spend some time pounding nails at SHOT.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/AR15forme/2011%20SHOT/IMG_05371.jpg
Check out Fenix lights, they are very nice and have lots of features for the price. I have been very pleased with mine and plan to buy more in the future, it's just too bad they don't make weapon lights.
FourSevens lights are ultra bright, ultra durable, full of modes and settings, and reasonably priced. Most models run Cree XM-L emitters. Their CS has been great too (I once called them because I cracked the emitter head glass (totally my fault) and they were speedy and helpful in the response)
CarbonCycles
06-18-12, 22:54
The only problem I can see with trying to get away from Surefire is that most of the respectable manufacturers have created mounts specifically for Surefire models
what model light is that?
SureFire M2 Centurion with a Malkoff Devices drop-in LE.
http://i987.photobucket.com/albums/ae360/chc_hmc/SFM2_MDM61W.jpg
Check out Fenix lights, they are very nice and have lots of features for the price. I have been very pleased with mine and plan to buy more in the future, it's just too bad they don't make weapon lights.
That's kinda exactly it - there are quite a few non-SF makers that put out lights that outperform them (battery life, lumen output, feature listing), but when it comes to weapon mounted or extreme use, there are only certain models from certain other manufacturers.
The durability is really the only reason I'm willing to pay top dollar for previous generation CREE units in a light - SF weaponlights fill that role better than anything else.
Triple Bravo
06-19-12, 05:02
I'd also recommend taking a look at Elzetta:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7095/7054477285_7715f0c30d_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/triplebravo/7054477285/)
A Few of My Favorite Things (http://www.flickr.com/photos/triplebravo/7054477285/) by Triple Bravo (http://www.flickr.com/people/triplebravo/), on Flickr
I would not buy the Fenix I don't want a Chinese anything on my weapon. SF is my 1st choice and I would buy an Elzetta.
The problem with most of the alternatives is that they cater to the light geeks, with 57 options and 18 programs. The light geeks hate Surefire for the pricing and because Surefire refuses to cater to their daily whims of what would be "neat". The alternative brands are happy to cater to this nonsense because it's their only real market share.
Despite the fact that I get checks from Surefire for writing for their magalog, I'd be happy to look at alternatives. So far the few I've bought have left me disappointed or confused, and so I continue to go back to the known standard. I want a light, not a discotheque in my pocket.
I don't like the price of the X300, but I haven't found an alternative that does everything that it does, including switching that is as good or mounting that is as flexible. Yes, the X300 is expensive, but the fact that I can move it from my handgun to my rifle in less time than it takes to type that is a huge bonus to me, and it means effectively two lights for the price of one.
If guys might die if my light ****s up, I want Surefire.
H
Take Fenix, 4Sevens, Eagletac, Jetbeam, etc... filter by "single output", you get bupkis. As a non-mil or LEO, single output is the most important feature to me. I have been an advocate for Fenix in the past and have a TK10 on a rifle, but guess what happens when I decided to try timed drills of getting the rifle up from low ready and activating the light...I got light, strobe, light, strobe, etc... YAY! Look at me, im gay.
Elzetta & HDS are my last options since I think you can lock the other settings out; but now im in the realm of Surefires pricing. Im smitten with my Surefire Mini, I only wish it was brighter; perfect size, perfect controls.
I get so sick of the sf fan boy bs! People are so quick to jump to the conclusion that everything that sf builds is "bombproof" and everything else is junk...so quick to forget that the all it took was a hot halogen sf dropped...and your in the dark. Yes...nowadays surefire has leds that don't burn out easily...but unless you pay hundreds of dollars, you are still in the 80 or 110 lumen range.. with less battery life than my 340 lumen Olight....that just screams quality! There is no evidence that convinces me that sf is worth the ridiculous price they retail at...especially when I own a g2, a 6p, a fenix ta21 and 2 olights. My fenix has taken abuse that I know for a fact my g2 would not take, not so sure my 6p, or Olights would be working either.
I get so sick of the sf fan boy bs! People are so quick to jump to the conclusion that everything that sf builds is "bombproof" and everything else is junk...so quick to forget that the all it took was a hot halogen sf dropped...and your in the dark. Yes...nowadays surefire has leds that don't burn out easily...but unless you pay hundreds of dollars, you are still in the 80 or 110 lumen range.. with less battery life than my 340 lumen Olight....that just screams quality! There is no evidence that convinces me that sf is worth the ridiculous price they retail at...especially when I own a g2, a 6p, a fenix ta21 and 2 olights. My fenix has taken abuse that I know for a fact my g2 would not take, not so sure my 6p, or Olights would be working either.
Pot, meet kettle.
:cray:
i also run fenix as a daily light, there just as solid (if not more) than the comparable surefires.
the only other brand id trust would be the blackhawk brand "Night-ops"
dont let the parent company scare you away, these lights are not korean made junk.
the night ops gladius is to this day the best light ive ever owned.
has all the features you want and is easiest on the market to use.
Failure2Stop
06-19-12, 10:17
I have yet to find a weapon mounted light from anyone that out performs the SF X300 or M600.
At this point the only non-SF lights I am interested in are for pocket carry.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
I'm not a fan boy. I just want stuff to work. I dont care who makes it. I do care where it is made and i am willing to pay more for an American made product. Especially one that lives depend on. I've tried other lights but have bee disappointed in quality and performance.
I've had great CS with Streamlight and Sure Fire.
I'm not a fan boy. I just want stuff to work. I dont care who makes it. I do care where it is made and i am willing to pay more for an American made product. Especially one that lives depend on. I've tried other lights but have bee disappointed in quality and performance.
I guess I look at in the perspective, that no-matter whether you buy American or foreign, you are still dealing with some sort of corporate entity..That is only in it for the profit. While I am not saying that sf is junk (the quality in their craftsmanship is impressive) I am saying their electronics are, way be-hind other manufacturers, and that they are way overpriced...for what you get. Try lighting up a target at a hundred yards with an 80 lumen 6p or g2...it's sad. I can light up a whole tree line at a hundred yards with my olight m20s, and it has a longer battery life. I have never taken it into battle..but it has hit the concrete a few times in the 2 years I've owned it, and it has never failed to work.
Pot, meet kettle.
:cray:
:big_boss:
If he owns several different brands and has come to the conclusion that surefires are over-priced, then how does that make him a fanboy?
i also run fenix as a daily light, there just as solid (if not more) than the comparable surefires.
the only other brand id trust would be the blackhawk brand "Night-ops"
dont let the parent company scare you away, these lights are not korean made junk.
the night ops gladius is to this day the best light ive ever owned.
has all the features you want and is easiest on the market to use.
I loved my original Gladius and even more after the first LED upgrade. However, I have gone thru 3 tailcaps and the last one is acting up as well.
Check out this light, basically an upgraded version that is super bright and has been working great for a year now. There is also an option for a Turbo head.
http://www.batteryjunction.com/thrunite-scorpion.html
Dennis.
There are many good, simple, tactical-ish lights from various manufacturers that can get the job done with either separate button switching (copied in the new SF R1 Lawman) or even simpler two level by either bezel loose/tight. Unfortunately, you have to sort through all the other disco lights to find the simple ones: I have several from Olight, Thrunite, Fenix, Sunwayman, and Klaurus that I have no problem carrying for duty use.
I bought a couple of these on sale because they were so cheap, but even at regular price they are a great deal with solid build quality, better than average clicky switch feel, dual springs front and rear (weapon mountable?), simple bezel loose/tight dual mode, rechargeable capability, long battery life with an efficient XM-L LED, and bright! Basically the perfect tactical light :)
http://www.batteryjunction.com/olight-i6.html
That said, my primary EDC is either a SF A2L or a 6Z with Malkoff drop in modified to accept rechargeables along with a X300 on my G17. Either a Klaurus XT11 or Thrunite Scorpion V2 ride on my duty vest for brighter light options.
Dennis.
+1 for the Elzetta ZFL-M60!
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7079/7287838568_3799bee994_b.jpg
Inforce is doing some interesting things and has a growing list of some serious end users. Ran one in a recent class and will be adding some to the inventory. On a side note, they are a good group of guys.
I guess I look at in the perspective, that no-matter whether you buy American or foreign, you are still dealing with some sort of corporate entity..That is only in it for the profit. While I am not saying that sf is junk (the quality in their craftsmanship is impressive) I am saying their electronics are, way be-hind other manufacturers, and that they are way overpriced...for what you get. Try lighting up a target at a hundred yards with an 80 lumen 6p or g2...it's sad. I can light up a whole tree line at a hundred yards with my olight m20s, and it has a longer battery life. I have never taken it into battle..but it has hit the concrete a few times in the 2 years I've owned it, and it has never failed to work.
The only light I carried in "combat" was my mini Maglite. :D I still have it. That was an awesome piece of gear in its day. I used the shit out of mine. I wore one on my duty belt for a while, they were issued. When I bought my first 6P I retired my mini. It sits in my medicine cabinet today.
I picked up two of the Olight i6 Paladins on Dennis' recommendation and I've had them for about a week now.
They appear to be fairly well made, but I've only had them a week and they haven't been used heavily, or abused. In terms of handling and switching, it behaves a lot like a Surefire 6P with a z58 tail-cap. The bezel is a bit larger than the 6P and there is a flange at the rear of the body to assist in gripping the light.
Performance wise, the Olight i6 Paladins are extremely bright. They definitely out throw and out perform my 6PX Tactical (420 lumens versus 200 lumens). A nice feature is that you can turn the bezel to lower the light output to 80 lumens if you don't need 420 lumens.
I also have a Thrunite 460 lumens P60L drop-in (http://www.batteryjunction.com/Thrunite-xml-1m-9v.html) for my Surefire 6P which has become my favorite every day carry light. The Olights, have a more concentrated center beam and throws a bit better than the Thrunite/6P. However, the Thrunite/6P has a more consistent beam pattern (less defined center hot-spot) and is floodier. These brighter lights are perfect for ME, in the suburbs of Tucson, where residential neighborhoods are restricted from being brightly lit.
As Dennis mentioned, the Olights have a front and rear spring, which might make them suitable for mounting on rifles, but I haven't decided to go in that direction with these. I'm perfectly happy with my Surefire G2LEDs with z58 tailcaps and Malkoff M61 drop-ins on my rifles. On a side note, before I began using the Thrunite drop-in in my every day carry light, it was mounted on my training carbine for about 2K rounds, and it functioned fine.
The Olight body is more bored out (versus Surefire bodies) to accommodate 18650 rechargeables. Primary 123 batteries, which have a smaller diameter than the 18650s, will fit a bit looser inside the body. I don't believe that this will present any issues, but it's just an observation.
In my opinion, at about $60, these are a good buy. They feel almost as solid as my Surefire 6P, but then again, a Surefire of comparable light output is going to cost more than double. I would much rather pay $60 for this light than an anemic G2LED. These make for a decent multi-purpose, general use flashlights.
I am approaching this viewpoint as a civilian and this light will not be used in a duty role. I picked these up as cheaper, viable alternatives to Surefire lights, especially given the price increases.
I own Surefire and Fenix lights. I run an M600c on one AR and a TK15 on another. The TK15 is great for varmit hunting due to its brightness and throw but I've had an issues with it flickering once. I took the tail cap off and tightened the inside (of the tail cap since I'm not sure what to call it) and it stopped flickering. Haven't had it happen since. However, my go to lights are the Surefire lights. Whether it's a natural disaster or deployment, they are with me. I even keep an E1B with me at all times.
There are many good, simple, tactical-ish lights from various manufacturers that can get the job done with either separate button switching (copied in the new SF R1 Lawman) or even simpler two level by either bezel loose/tight. Unfortunately, you have to sort through all the other disco lights to find the simple ones:
This has been my issue pretty much since the get-go of all these also-ran lights.
I don't have time to de-geek all these CPF lights. it is frigging maddening. One of them I ordered wound up sucking a coworker and I into a vortex of fiddling while we tried to figure out how to get it to do what I wanted it to do, only to find out I had ordered the wrong model anyway and it wasn't the 5k49cx-1 that I should have bought but the 5k49cx-2. :suicide2: The good news is that it was cheap enough to just leave there on my desk as a monument to one more reason to simply buy Surefire.
If you're a light geek and you have the time and inclination to dork out on all the fiddle-****ing and you don't consider it a waste of time because you enjoy that stuff, rock on. Go find the holy grail of tactifool lights. But for me, I like the fact that I can buy from Surefire and know that the light is more than durable enough, will not succumb to the latest forum-inspired trickery, and will get the job done and have the support I need should it not.
To equate it to guns, I'm an AR geek. I enjoy (or did, it's fading rapidly) learning about them, fiddle-****ing with new parts, etc. But that is wholly a waste of time if you take away the enjoyment aspect. If the goal is to get the job done you go buy a Colt, BCM, or Daniel Defense and you go get the job done.
Rob, I understand where you're coming from and this is also why I've been very hesitant to get into the non-Surefire lights. There are a ton of options and it's hard to separate the good from the shit. If you don't have the time or the patience, Surefire is a good choice. I don't consider myself a "light geek", but Surefire's pricing and generally lower performance for the money has me looking at other options for general use lights.
Prior to purchasing the two Olight i6 Palandins, I only bought Surefire. I didn't buy many (only 4), but I owned a G2LED, G2 incandescent, 6PLED, and a 6PX Tactical (picked this one up much later). For WMLs, I went with Streamlight TLR1 and TLR1S.
I learned very quickly that the G2s and 6Ps in their stock configurations leave much to be desired for night shooting. This conclusion was reached after taking a Pistol 2 class with EAG. Most people running G2s, G2LEDs, or 6Ps came to the same conclusion. I've taken about 4 classes now with night shooting modules and have never wished that I had less light.
About 2 or 3 years ago, for about $70, it was cheaper to upgrade old G2LEDs and 6PLEDs with Malkoff M61 heads (~250 lumens) than to try to purchase a Surefire light of comparable output. Surefire KX4 heads were very expensive and only produced 120 lumens. It was possible to do the same with TNVC for less, but the TNVC drop-in was an "overseas" made light spec'd out by an American company. Both companies reported that their lights were being tested by some of the more reputable training companies with solid results, reliably running as rifle mounted lights in Surefire bodies. Many members on this site have had solid results with either company in upgrading their old Surefires. I have been more than happy with my Malkoff equipped G2LEDs running Surefire Z58 tailcaps mounted on my rifles. Between two guns, I probably have about 10K rounds with the lights mounted. Many of these round counts took place during carbine classes. Both lights still work. I went with Surefire bodies for reliability and the Malkoff heads have an excellent reputation. I believe they make the M60 heads for Elzetta.
For a tactical use light, it's important to purchase a single click, single function type light. This is where a lot of the disco lights fail, and it's also why I didn't buy any Surefire 6PX Pros. It's frustrating not getting the light level you want, when you want it.
The Olights I purchased will not be for critical, weapon mounted use. They are good to have around the house or to have some spares during camping trips. They are simple, one click on and one off. The bezel is loosened a eight of a turn to get 80 lumens versus 420 lumens. You can get 5 $60 Olights or 1 $300 Surefire. As someone with a family, and needing duplicate pieces of equipment, the Olights just made sense for me.
Just as we all trusted you years ago with the chart and your expertise on ARs, gained by fiddle-****ing with them, when none of us had the patience to do it ourselves, I am asking Dennis for advice on lights.
The "lower performance" thing I hear about all the time cracks me up to no end. As compared to what? As measured against what metric? A 5.56 AR has "lower performance" than a howitzer, but if I want any meat left on the pig I'm better served with the "mouse gun".
I see people chasing around after "better performance" in all kinds of things lately, ignoring the fact that what they have now is light-years better than what they had yesterday, but they seem to keep thinking that "more" means "better". More lumens, more options, more modes, more, more, moar!
If there is something that a Surefire legitimately isn't doing for you then yeah, go see if there's something that does. But what I see instead is a screwball cycle that makes no sense (and this applies to WAY more than lights)...
Guy buys item
Guy uses item
Guy is happy with performance of item
Geek wants moar!
Geek lobbies establishment for moar!
Establishment tells geek to **** off
Geek lobbies secondary market for moar!
Secondary market thinks geek knows what he is talking about
Secondary market reacts to geek
Secondary market produces moar! for geek market
Original guy sees moar! and thinks "why don't I have that?"
Guy gets distracted by bright-shiny-object (literally)
Guy loses sight of what matters and starts chasing after moar!
In this paradigm "real world use" and "you just don't get it 'cause you're not one of us" gets thrown around to justify the moar! sickness of the original guy. It is code for "I have no ****ing idea why I want moar! and I'm pissed off at you for asking me to explain it so I'm going to attempt to discredit you rather than address the topic at hand. I will also use 'I don't have to justify myself to you' as further justification, and eventually will retreat to 'not everything has to be so serious' when all else fails."
There is just no need in fighting it. For the value, it's Surefire. I just bought a 6 PX TACTICAL. For one of my SBR' s with Vltor offset, it's a little heavy but oh so nice. And I bought a headlamp minimus. Same thing, a little heavy but REALLY NICE. Great adjustment features for intensity and angle. Both each one for about $100, just look around, and will have for 10 to 20 years.
Surefire, yes.
As measured against what metric?
More lumens.
Longer battery life.
Smaller.
Lighter weight.
More or better options.
SUBSTANTIALLY lower cost.
There are a number of lights out there that beat Surefire on ALL of those metrics.
I'm sure markm would disagree :p! Last I had a PM conversation with him, he went the way of Solarforce.
There is just no need in fighting it. For the value, it's Surefire. I just bought a 6 PX TACTICAL. For one of my SBR' s with Vltor offset, it's a little heavy but oh so nice. And I bought a headlamp minimus. Same thing, a little heavy but REALLY NICE. Great adjustment features for intensity and angle. Both each one for about $100, just look around, and will have for 10 to 20 years.
Surefire, yes.
CarbonCycles
07-12-12, 13:11
More lumens.
Longer battery life.
Smaller.
Lighter weight.
More or better options.
SUBSTANTIALLY lower cost.
There are a number of lights out there that beat Surefire on ALL of those metrics.
Think you might want to reconsider your post, especially if we don't know (do you even know?) what your end goal with this light is.
For example, smaller, lower cost and light weight is not conducive to robust and reliable.
Btw, Rob, you seem a bit cranky today... :D
Solarforce......If they aren't Chicom Surefire what are they? I'll pay a couple dollars more for lights built by adults or non-slaves. This is what is wrong with shit now. I'll save a few bucks and support slave/child labor. Don't bother telling me about the high wages and benefits paid in Hong Kong, I won't believe you. Keep buying Chinese shit and put all our manufacturers out of business.
Think you might want to reconsider your post, especially if we don't know (do you even know?) what your end goal with this light is.
For example, smaller, lower cost and light weight is not conducive to robust and reliable.
In my attempt to not sound like a fanboy, I neglected to mention any specific brands, which is what the OP was asking for. My picks would be Fenix or Foursevens.
Other than that, what's to reconsider? I wasn't commenting about a specific end goal. I was commenting about measurable metrics one could use for comparing lights to determine which would be best for them.
I'll admit, nobody makes lights as durable as Surefire. But if my non-SF (and better on all other metrics) light can already be used as hammer, how much MOAR durable does it need to be?
I'm sure markm would disagree :p! Last I had a PM conversation with him, he went the way of Solarforce.
Solarforce. I've been beating the dog shit out of my Solarforce lights for a few years now. It's an alloy tube with a Cree lamp module in it. We're not splitting atoms.
Buying Surefire is like lighting cash on fire. They're nice, but way overpriced. Both brands have switch issues... so you're stuck vetting the switchery either way.
SUBSTANTIALLY lower cost.
and let's be honest, this one is 99% of the measure for most of the knockoff buyers, and the rest are stand-ins for bullshit reasons to justify that 99%.
and it does not come with tradeoffs. If you don't see them, and you're happy with your knockoffs, then motor on.
Rob, I know that I'm not going to change your mind and won't even waste my time trying. I have a lot of respect for you and your knowledge on ARs and related gear, but you even admitted that you don't know much about light technology (and don't care to try).
As a member of M4C for the last few years, I've become familiar with your viewpoints and tendencies. This isn't meant in a condescending way, just an observation I've made and your behavior is, well, predictable... For example, every time there is a light related conversation, you go on a rant about light geeks or 100 function disco lights (seriously, you do) and frankly, it gets old. I have no intention on getting into a tit for tat with you, but I'm going to answer some of the questions you posed for the benefit of others reading and to clarify things.
The "lower performance" thing I hear about all the time cracks me up to no end. As compared to what? As measured against what metric? A 5.56 AR has "lower performance" than a howitzer, but if I want any meat left on the pig I'm better served with the "mouse gun".
To begin with, you're engaging in a ridiculous analogy with a howitzer versus an AR. No one is arguing that we need the light output of a NightSun (the spotlight on helicopters), which I'm mentioning to mock your ridiculous analogy. Current XM-L LED technology has LEDs producing ~750 lumens. I am talking about a light that produces only 420 lumens versus one that produces 200 lumens.
I thought the metrics relating to performance (in my post) were abundantly clear. If you would stop ranting, and read, I clearly stated that the Olight i6 Paladin puts out 420 lumens compared to a Surefire 6PX Tactical at 200 lumens. This has to do with total output. The performance can also be measured in the amount of throw (distance the light gets projected forward) or the amount of flood (the amount a light distributes its beam into an area). In my experience, the Olight i6 Paladin out-performs the Surefire 6PX Tactical in both these areas.
For the record, the Surefire P2X Fury on sale for about $110-$120 was at the top of my list. I would have bought 2 if it had all the features I wanted. It's Surefire (so I can say I'm cool ;)), has 500 lumens (MOAR!!! :p), but requires two clicks to get to high power. After previously playing around with a friend's Surefire 6PX Pro, I decided the 2 click BS wasn't for me.
I live on one-third of an acre. Behind my house is a large area of natural desert. It's pitch black out there at night. It is amazing the difference that 400 lumens makes versus 200 lumens on night walks around the neighborhood. I'm comfortable enough with a handheld ~400 lumens light for most things and am not looking for "MOAR". In the event that I don't want that much light, the bezel on the Olight can be turned an eight of a turn to get 80 lumens, which is equivalent to what an older G2LED output is. One click still equals one function.
Besides output, what else do we all care about in our lights? Durability, battery life, and ease of use seems to be some obvious choices.
Surefire has a hard-earned reputation for durability. There is no denying that they are the gold-standard for this. However, you also have up and comers like Elzetta kicking some ass (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=73356). Are my Olights as durable? I doubt it, but I don't know, and frankly, I don't care because they weren't purchased for that kind of abuse. Dennis, who I do not know personally, seems to be very knowledgeable/experienced with lights, and appears to be an LEO from his postings, didn't seem to have any issues with his. Markm, who I don't know personally either, but definitely seems to have his shit straight, swears by his Solarforces. At the end of the day, the bottom line is that these lights appear to work and are durable enough. Are they Surefires? No, but no one is claiming that nor are we deluding ourselves about what we are buying.
Regarding battery life, I'm not well versed in all the details so I'll refrain from getting too deep into it. I will say that the ability to use lithium ion AW18650 rechargeable batteries (longer runtimes) instead of primary 123s is a very attractive option. This option is NOT available in most, if not all, Surefires.
As for ease of use, let's just say that for most of our purposes, we are discussing a single click, single function light. Engaging in hyperbole regarding 100 function disco lights gets us nowhere, because it isn't the topic at hand and only serves to confuse everyone who isn't informed.
I see people chasing around after "better performance" in all kinds of things lately, ignoring the fact that what they have now is light-years better than what they had yesterday, but they seem to keep thinking that "more" means "better". More lumens, more options, more modes, more, more, moar!
This thread is about viable alternatives to Surefire lights. A flashlight that produces more lumens at a lower price is relevant to this. Nobody is screaming for more options and modes so calm down.
Also, to set the record straight, regarding LED technology, Surefire has been behind the curve in innovation compared to these "Chicom" made lights. I'm not saying that we should all go out and buy these "Chicom" lights, but Surefire is allowing the "geek" market to fine tune their product line and to also research what works and doesn't work. This isn't a bad strategy as it allows others to make mistakes for you. Much of what Surefire is offering now, was already done a year or two ago by some lame ass Chinese company. Makes you wonder who really is doing the knocking off....
Even Surefire knows that the LEO/Mil market is asking for Li-ion recharge-ability and MOAR power: http://www.surefire.com/illumination/law-enforcement-lights/r1-lawman.html
If there is something that a Surefire legitimately isn't doing for you then yeah, go see if there's something that does. But what I see instead is a screwball cycle that makes no sense (and this applies to WAY more than lights)...
Guy buys item
Guy uses item
Guy is happy with performance of item
Geek wants moar!
Geek lobbies establishment for moar!
Establishment tells geek to **** off
Geek lobbies secondary market for moar!
Secondary market thinks geek knows what he is talking about
Secondary market reacts to geek
Secondary market produces moar! for geek market
Original guy sees moar! and thinks "why don't I have that?"
Guy gets distracted by bright-shiny-object (literally)
Guy loses sight of what matters and starts chasing after moar!
In this paradigm "real world use" and "you just don't get it 'cause you're not one of us" gets thrown around to justify the moar! sickness of the original guy. It is code for "I have no ****ing idea why I want moar! and I'm pissed off at you for asking me to explain it so I'm going to attempt to discredit you rather than address the topic at hand. I will also use 'I don't have to justify myself to you' as further justification, and eventually will retreat to 'not everything has to be so serious' when all else fails."
You're over-generalizing. I know what matters to me and am able to articulate it. You, on the other hand, come off like someone who is overwhelmed by the options and technology in the current light market, and are unable to separate the wheat from the chaff. You purchased the wrong light model (poor research), got frustrated trying to make a light do what it wasn't designed to do :confused:, and swore off a whole segment of light manufacturers. Your snarky comments only serve to discourage people from learning about things and are a disservice to the M4C community.
If you have no desire to learn about this topic, no desire to be a student, step aside. For example, I made up my mind that the pistols I prefer to shoot are Glocks. They (usually) work, don't require me to "fiddle-****" with them, are durable, and are accurate enough. I don't go around taking dumps in threads where people are discussing other pistols, unless I have relevant knowledge or experience.
**For those who don't want or don't care to understand this topic, and who want a solid, well performing light, buy Surefire. You can't really go wrong.**
and let's be honest, this one is 99% of the measure for most of the knockoff buyers, and the rest are stand-ins for bullshit reasons to justify that 99%.
and it does not come with tradeoffs. If you don't see them, and you're happy with your knockoffs, then motor on.
Everything is a tradeoff. Spending more money for marginal gains is also a tradeoff. Paying top dollar for a light that doesn't fulfill all the set criteria and requires two clicks to get it to turn on maximum, just because it says "Surefire" on the body, is also a tradeoff.
For example, not everyone looking to buy a variable 1-4x scope will buy a S&B Short Dot. Should we shun the other companies that came out with more affordable variable 1-4x scopes because they were knock-offs? No, we ended up having threads and discussions about the merits of each of the brands, while recognizing that the S&B Short Dot was the gold-standard.
I own both Surefire lights and "knock off" lights. They each serve their purposes and I'm capable of understanding the finer points. Motoring on......
...bullshit reasons to justify...
So... I shouldn't use an upgraded trigger in my AR unless I can give measurable metrics showing an increase in my performance, but if I do the same thing to show that one flashlight is better than another, then it's "bullshit reasons?" :confused:
2 years ago, I was shopping around for an EDC light. I wanted something small and light enough to clip in my pocket. I wanted at least 3 output levels - full power for outdoors and defensive use, low power for night-time map reading, etc, and something in the middle for "normal" flashlight uses. I wanted LED for the better battery life and shock resistance. Price was not a driving factor.
At the time, surefire did not have a light that met those requirements. But a number of other light makers did. I ended up with a Fenix PD30, and have been carrying it every day ever since, and using it hard. It has never not worked.
Since then, Surefire has re-vamped their product line. As far as I can tell, they still don't have a light that meets those requirements.
The models that come closest (but still fall short) are 3 times - not an exaggeration - fully 3 times the cost of the light that I got.
Much of what Surefire is offering now, was already done a year or two ago by some lame ass Chinese company. Makes you wonder who really is doing the knocking off....
This is true, although IMHO is being generous to SF. Prior to their revamp last year, they were close to 10 years behind the curve. Now it's only about 5.
highlighter
07-13-12, 22:24
None.
The "lower performance" thing I hear about all the time cracks me up to no end. As compared to what? As measured against what metric? A 5.56 AR has "lower performance" than a howitzer, but if I want any meat left on the pig I'm better served with the "mouse gun".
I see people chasing around after "better performance" in all kinds of things lately, ignoring the fact that what they have now is light-years better than what they had yesterday, but they seem to keep thinking that "more" means "better". More lumens, more options, more modes, more, more, moar!
If there is something that a Surefire legitimately isn't doing for you then yeah, go see if there's something that does. But what I see instead is a screwball cycle that makes no sense (and this applies to WAY more than lights)...
Guy buys item
Guy uses item
Guy is happy with performance of item
Geek wants moar!
Geek lobbies establishment for moar!
Establishment tells geek to **** off
Geek lobbies secondary market for moar!
Secondary market thinks geek knows what he is talking about
Secondary market reacts to geek
Secondary market produces moar! for geek market
Original guy sees moar! and thinks "why don't I have that?"
Guy gets distracted by bright-shiny-object (literally)
Guy loses sight of what matters and starts chasing after moar!
In this paradigm "real world use" and "you just don't get it 'cause you're not one of us" gets thrown around to justify the moar! sickness of the original guy. It is code for "I have no ****ing idea why I want moar! and I'm pissed off at you for asking me to explain it so I'm going to attempt to discredit you rather than address the topic at hand. I will also use 'I don't have to justify myself to you' as further justification, and eventually will retreat to 'not everything has to be so serious' when all else fails."
Rob, this is the best assessment of geek related issues for a manufacturer I have ever read. In my company, we often get end-user demands from geeks that can cause our engineering to waste time, energy, and effort on useless development on things that turn out to be solutions looking for problems.
The problem with the regular guy versus the geek is that the regular guy is busy and won't tell you whether your product needs improvement or not. They may be very happy with it, but they are too busy doing their job and using it to mention anything, positive or negative. In their off-hours, they sure as hell don't want to waste time sending emails or calling a manufacturer. When you deal with their unit or agency, you deal with the management or finance who can care less about what the regular guy thinks, just as long as the product meets the budget.
Geeks on the other hand, seem to have more time than anyone and love to waste it by dreaming up some specs or creating some crisis that needs a resolution. Since they are vocal, if you don't get out of the bubble of your company, you think that the vocal Geek represents the opinion of every potential or current customer. That thinking is mostly bullshit, but it is easy for many to fall into that trap. Oftentimes, the engineers or marketing staff working at the manufacturer are geeks themselves and are happy to be willing participants in some other geek's folly in the search for something "moar". This just compounds the problem.
Your steps and longer blog post here (http://tacticalyellowvisor.blogspot.com/2012/07/moar.html) are funny as a smell test to decide whether it is worthwhile to go down a path on a feature. If there’s a legitimate reason to respond to a legitimate need or weakness in the competition or the broader market; and doing it adds value, is better for all end-users, saves lives, saves the .mil/.gov money, drops costs, makes the product faster, easier to use, more flexible, etc., then yes. If it is just to add something for no apparent real world benefit except to pacify or appease the geek user who requests it, then no; it is just MOAR!
Your words are genius. Thanks for posting them.
I don't mean to threadjack or derail discussion on Surefire lights - there really isn't a great substitute for Surefire, they make a great product.
I absolutely love Streamlight. Between the PT-2L and TLR-1, i dont see the need for any other light in my inventory.
Would i consider buying another light someday? Yes.
Doc Safari
07-18-12, 11:48
Between me and other owners I know, I have seen more Streamlight tail switches fail prematurely compared to Surefire.
I don't care for Surefire's "momentary push/twist-for-constant-on". I prefer Streamlight's "momentary on or click for constant on", but I have seen enough Streamlight tail switches fail to make me stick to Surefire.
Between me and other owners I know, I have seen more Streamlight tail switches fail prematurely compared to Surefire.
I don't care for Surefire's "momentary push/twist-for-constant-on". I prefer Streamlight's "momentary on or click for constant on", but I have seen enough Streamlight tail switches fail to make me stick to Surefire.
Besides owning 2 TLR1s and 2 TLR1Ss, I don't own any other Streamlight products. Luckily, none of mine have failed yet, but I can see how it might be possible with that rocker switch.
I didn't like the Surefire "momentary push/twist-for-constant-on" switch either and upgraded two of mine with the Surefire Z58 tailcaps. They're both rifle mounted. One of them has been on my training rifle for over 6K rounds and still functions perfectly.
That's kinda exactly it - there are quite a few non-SF makers that put out lights that outperform them (battery life, lumen output, feature listing), but when it comes to weapon mounted or extreme use, there are only certain models from certain other manufacturers.
The durability is really the only reason I'm willing to pay top dollar for previous generation CREE units in a light - SF weaponlights fill that role better than anything else.
I have yet to find a weapon mounted light from anyone that out performs the SF X300 or M600.
At this point the only non-SF lights I am interested in are for pocket carry.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
These are some of the best reasoned posts in this thread.
For those looking to upgrade an old Surefire 6PL or G2L, Malkoff M60s and M61s are probably some of the most durable options available. The M60 is the LED unit utilized by Elzetta, the same light in that torture test video by Ares, but I don't believe it is being sold by Malkoff on the website.
From the testimonial on the Malkoff Devices website:
“We have tested, abused, jumped, dove, used in combat and thrown almost everything we can at these modules… we have modules with over 100,000 rounds of 5.56mm ammo on them! A true American product built by true Americans! We endorse this product from general daily use all the way to the worst riggers of combat operation.” -Travis Haley and Chris Costa Magpul Dynamics LLC
5.11 light for life C cell size, Inova rechargeable. One of the surprising lights I've found is Led Lenser uses 3 AAA batts. I carried one 2005 -2011and it gave up. low cost batts long run time and been reliable used in Iraq 08-09. the one next to me right now has 3 years of use bright as a standard P60 I really know the one is none have seen many flash lights to die ..pelican lights about everyone I've had failed or flooded. EDC light is a Led Lenser or P60 w conv LED. I'm not convinced on the strobe functions I prefer on/ off modes
toasterlocker
07-24-12, 10:41
Many of the common gripes about non-Surefire lights are based in user ignorance and a simple unwillingness to examine simple fact (as rob_s openly admits). It is comparable to someone who doesn't know much about ARs saying Colts are the only gun to be considered, and brands like Daniel Defense and Bravo Company MUST suck because they have never heard of those brands. And they refuse to research non-Colt brands to confirm if their position is even accurate. Sure, Colt is a great brand, but having a more recognizable name, being around longer, and being more expensive do not automatically make it better than a Daniel Defense or a Bravo Company gun. In fact, one could argue a Daniel Defense may be better, having a cold hammer forged barrel, for example.
rob_s and others complaining about their experience with non-Surefire lights would be like a Colt-only user trying out a DPMS, having a bad experience, and then writing off ALL non-Colt guns based on that single experience. DPMS sucks, so BCM and Daniel Defense must suck too! Because like DPMS, they aren't Colt! When you use a product for something other than its intended application, you are the problem, not the product. Like putting a plinker through an intense class or a using a multi-mode utility light as a tac light. If you want an outstanding, simple tactical light that isn't a Surefire, there are tons are out there. But if you are too lazy to do 10 minutes worth of googling and end up with multi-mode utility light, you have no one to blame but yourself. It is almost as silly as buying a 4 banger pick up and then complaining it doesn't perform well at the Indy 500.
More to come later...
piesandcheese
07-24-12, 17:32
I've had my Olight M20S mounted on my twelve gauge for a couple years now. I've put hundreds of magnum loads through it and it's still holding strong. It's the best flashlight I've ever used.
Granted, I've never used a Surefire, but then again, I've never needed to replace my Olight. It performs like a champ, and if it can handle 3'' 00 Buckshot loads on a 12 gauge, I'm sure it can handle 5.56 recoil just fine.
http://zecken-und-dornen.de/m/100000/100025/media/KLK-Sicherheitsbedarf/Olight-M20S-2.jpg
I've had my Olight M20S mounted on my twelve gauge for a couple years now.
I went with my Olight m20s-x because of the user interface. I like the secondary switch for the mode and strobe. Every time i hit the tail cap or pressure switch I get what ever mode I left the light set to (always max). Then the secondary for modes. As a bonus I don't ever scroll through strobe (a major pet peeve in other lights.) It has a floody beam that i like. I've had great luck with it thus far.
and let's be honest, this one is 99% of the measure for most of the knockoff buyers, and the rest are stand-ins for bullshit reasons to justify that 99%.
and it does not come with tradeoffs. If you don't see them, and you're happy with your knockoffs, then motor on.
Agreed. Something has to give. TANSTAAFL.
As mentioned, SureFire offers a no-questions-asked warranty on non-switch related parts for your light. That costs money but you're glad you have it should you ever need it.
I havent seen many companies make as good of products as surefire. They make few items but they make them flawless. I have 2 x300 and the mc600a
Agreed. Something has to give. TANSTAAFL.
As mentioned, SureFire offers a no-questions-asked warranty on non-switch related parts for your light. That costs money but you're glad you have it should you ever need it.
No doubt this is true, but do you have any first hand experience with other light companies where they didn't honor their warranty on non-switch related parts for their lights?
I'm not calling you out, but the way you phrased your comment implies that ONLY Surefire would honor their warranty and I'm asking for clarification. If all the other companies screwed you over on their warranty, then it is worth noting. However, if one company screwed you over, then we should all be made aware to avoid that company.
Also, pricing of products can be a complex thing. With Surefire, you're dealing with a California based company, with all the challenges (higher costs, regulations, and taxes) of doing business there. I would think that the higher prices would at least have a little to do with that.
From the outset, I must admit that I don't own a single SureFire product... thanks to my meager budget. My current weapon light is a Streamlight PolyTac LED (what sold me was the momentary/click tailcap) while my current pocket light is an Olight T-10 (what sold me was the adjustable output) . I'm happy with both... but I really have not yet tried to destroy either. Take that for whatever it's worth.
toasterlocker
07-25-12, 12:20
-Surefires are more durable.
When you consider that some of the many common Surefires out there, like the 6P and 9P, use type II anodizing, it is clear the superior durability claim is false. Most reputable "cheap Chicom" brands use superior type III anodizing on all of their lights.
When you get beyond the finish, things are a little murkier. That said, the murkiness doesn't seem to favor one side more than the other. I haven't seen any tests where a Surefire is show to be "more durable" than its comparable Fenix, Olight, Jetbeam, etc counterpart. After all, it is simple aluminum tubes tubes we are talking about. This isn't exactly rocket science, an aluminum tube is pretty hard to screw up. markm said it pretty well earlier in the thread.
Finally, the switches and LEDs or lamps will fail with any brand (including Surefire) if punished enough, but I have yet to see a single test showing that a Surefire model outperformed any comparable non-Surefire counterpart. Probably because most of them use LED and chips from the SAME SOURCE.
Quite simply, people make the durability claim without a shred of evidence to back it up. Sure, someone can beat the hell out of lower end Fenix utility light and it won't take it as well as Surefire 6P, but that is like being disappointed when a stock Ford Ranger doesn't do well at a monster truck rally. Compare a Fenix TK21 to a 6P, however, and you have a more fair match up where is unlikely the Surefire will do anything to prove better than the competition.
-Surefires have a better warranty.
May be true in some cases, but certainly not all. It varies depending on which non-Surefire company or distributor you are dealing with, but some of them have far better customer service and warranties than Surefire. They will replace things like switches, without conditions or questions. Can't say the same about Surefire. Not that I can say I've seen these guarantees taken advantage of often, because the products are high quality in the first place. If you have something that doesn't break in the first place, a warranty doesn't mean much. Makes me think of "Tommy Boy": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf4C9ssuPjE
-Surefire is more innovative, and other brands copy them.
When it comes to the nicer non-Surefire lights, it is the other way around. Many lower end brands make Surefire knock offs, but many of the recently released updated Surefires use design features the appeared YEARS earlier on non-Surefire lights. The examples are so numerous I won't get into detail here, but I'm sure if anyone wants to dispute this claim, one of the flashlight experts here would be more than happy to school them.
-Surefire is "American," so buying Surefire is better for the "American" economy.
The best way I can address this is to say READ A BOOK. Simple global economics makes this claim ridiculous. The issue is far too complex to explain here, but for a better understanding, check out "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman. Do you people believe these lights come straight from a Chinese manufacturer to an American customer without ANY Americans in the supply/distribution chain making a buck along the way? The same crowd who actually believes they are doing more for America by getting a Surefire probably also believes that buying a GM vehicle made in Mexico is better for America than a Toyota Tundra made in Texas. When it comes down to it, it is generally a wash.
End rant... for now:D
fenix, 4seven and klarus i would say compete with surefire.
i own lights from all the companysand they all work great and are bright. check out candellight fourms. they talk about nothing but flashlights.
-Surefire is "American," so buying Surefire is better for the "American" economy.
The best way I can address this is to say READ A BOOK. Simple global economics makes this claim ridiculous. The issue is far too complex to explain here, but for a better understanding, check out "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman. Do you people believe these lights come straight from a Chinese manufacturer to an American customer without ANY Americans in the supply/distribution chain making a buck along the way? The same crowd who actually believes they are doing more for America by getting a Surefire probably also believes that buying a GM vehicle made in Mexico is better for America than a Toyota Tundra made in Texas. When it comes down to it, it is generally a wash.
End rant... for now:D
No by all means finish your rant, just stay on topic. We are talking flashlights, not Tundras. I know for a fact I'm doing better for my fellow American workers by buying products they make. If you think differently I can't help you. If we keep buying cheaper widgets from China or wherever Americans will no longer make widgets. The Americans who used to make widgets are gonna do what? It's all in my up coming book "See Dick's job go overseas" --LOL
I don't have time to de-geek all these CPF lights. it is frigging maddening. One of them I ordered wound up sucking a coworker and I into a vortex of fiddling while we tried to figure out how to get it to do what I wanted it to do, only to find out I had ordered the wrong model anyway and it wasn't the 5k49cx-1 that I should have bought but the 5k49cx-2. The good news is that it was cheap enough to just leave there on my desk as a monument to one more reason to simply buy Surefire.
If I'm not mistaken, the CPF has a "shopping list" thread where you simply check off all your "wants" and "don't wants". It's quite detailed as they have listed all the possible features. They ask that you fill that form out when seeking advice on "which light should I buy?"
So that usually allows them to cut your potential list down to just a few lights to sort through. With all the possibilities these days it would be foolish to try to sort through all that when they can do it for you.
It took me a good little while to sort through 4 recommendations they gave me for a single CR123 pocket light. I can't imagine just going in cold and trying to sort it all out myself.
I've bought a lot of tactical lights over the years. "Good ones" like MagLight, Streamlight, Fenix, OLight, and Surefire. And a variety of "commodity ones" like Coast, Cabelas, Energizer, and a couple of others I can't recall the name of.
Surefire is both my quality and quantity leader. A2 Aviator (my first), E2 Executive (my carry rig light), P6 LED (night stand), P2X Fury (500 lumens!), X400 weapon light (for my AR), and now ..... drum roll ..... an E1 Backup that I won (arrived yesterday!) in the monthly Surefire registration drawing. Great lights from a great company.
Very happy with Fenix TK11R2 that's been on my Noveske for 2-3 years now. This light has no retard modes, only high and low and you set this by twisting the head and not by clicking with the button.
The tailcap click is great too, very simple - partial press for temporary ON and full press for FULL on. SIMPLE.
I'd like to get a SF Fury for the 500 lumens and wide cone of light however I'm put off by it because the first ON press is for the 15 lumen light level and you have to cycle the tailcap button a few times to get 500 lumes. This is no good for me.
For you guys with lot of SF experience, can I buy a different tailcap to get JUST ON/OFF with the Fury that also defaults to the 500 lumen mode?
Slvr Surfr
07-28-12, 14:56
I'd like to get a SF Fury for the 500 lumens and wide cone of light however I'm put off by it because the first ON press is for the 15 lumen light level and you have to cycle the tailcap button a few times to get 500 lumes. This is no good for me.
For you guys with lot of SF experience, can I buy a different tailcap to get JUST ON/OFF with the Fury that also defaults to the 500 lumen mode?
The fury has two modes as you mentioned, low then high. You simply bump the clicky twice to activate the high 500 lumen mode.
More lumens.
Longer battery life.
Smaller.
Lighter weight.
More or better options.
SUBSTANTIALLY lower cost.
There are a number of lights out there that beat Surefire on ALL of those metrics.
There are a number of actual users that could give a crap about more options, brighter lights etc.
Those of us that need a light to survive don't necessarily want the latest greatest brightest light that requires twisting turning and multiple button combinations to cycle through 20 modes of bs. Further more, a 300 lumen light is a no go when it comes to needs of many actual users. There are those that use flashlights as necessary tools to get the job done. There are also people who consider flashlights a hobby. Get it?
toasterlocker
08-03-12, 20:16
Those of us that need a light to survive don't necessarily want the latest greatest brightest light that requires twisting turning and multiple button combinations to cycle through 20 modes of bs.
The "I don't want lights with extra features" argument against non-Surefire lights is self-defeating. There are plenty of non-Surefire companies out there making simple lights that are either single mode or can be used as single mode. They are also every bit as durable and dependable as a Surefire, if not more so.
If people are too lazy to do 10 minutes worth of research to differentiate the simple lights from the more complicated ones, that is on them. Surefire ALSO makes some multi-mode lights with counter-intuitive user interfaces, but I don't write off the entire company because of it. I just don't buy those particular lights.
toasterlocker
08-03-12, 20:39
There are those that use flashlights as necessary tools to get the job done. There are also people who consider flashlights a hobby. Get it?
Those things are not mutually exclusive. I started researching lights BECAUSE I depend on them (LEO). And because I depend on my lights, and have done some research, that is exactly why I use a Malkoff drop in in my 6P instead of junk P60 that came with it or the flimsy P60LED replacement that Surefire makes. Just one example of many.
Like I said earlier, people like you fall into the category of "I'll buy a Colt because I've either used them or heard of them, and they make good stuff. But I won't consider a Daniel Defense, BCM, or Noveske because I haven't heard of them, and am too lazy to do any research or try them out." Yeah, you are doing just fine buying a Colt, but you may not be getting the very best product.
toasterlocker
08-03-12, 20:50
No by all means finish your rant, just stay on topic. We are talking flashlights, not Tundras. I know for a fact I'm doing better for my fellow American workers by buying products they make. If you think differently I can't help you. If we keep buying cheaper widgets from China or wherever Americans will no longer make widgets. The Americans who used to make widgets are gonna do what? It's all in my up coming book "See Dick's job go overseas" --LOL
I'm not going spend a lot of time debating global economics, as I said earlier it is too complicated for a forum like this and your understanding is obviously pretty simple anyway. If you don't understand how Japanese branded trucks assembled in the US with parts and raw materials from all over the globe is related to this, I can't help you. Friedman addresses your ridiculous widgets conundrum well in "The World is Flat." If you are truly interested, check it out. Needless to say, I'm not worried about the overall effect of America losing a few aluminum tube manufacturing jobs to China. I think we'll survive.
I will happily point out, however, that this is the only point I made anyone has challenged, so all the other points would appear to be rock solid.:D
Those things are not mutually exclusive. I started researching lights BECAUSE I depend on them (LEO). And because I depend on my lights, and have done some research, that is exactly why I use a Malkoff drop in in my 6P instead of junk P60 that came with it or the flimsy P60LED replacement that Surefire makes. Just one example of many.
Like I said earlier, people like you fall into the category of "I'll buy a Colt because I've either used them or heard of them, and they make good stuff. But I won't consider a Daniel Defense, BCM, or Noveske because I haven't heard of them, and am too lazy to do any research or try them out." Yeah, you are doing just fine buying a Colt, but you may not be getting the very best product.
I'm a cop as well bro. You're missing my point. Look at the quote in my post. I'm arguing that SF is not necessarily inferior because they don't have the latest and greates run times, lumens and dumb ass options. They stick to proven and simple products. I like that. I'll say it again, there are those of us who could care less about the "neat guy" options. I use Malkoff as well, in fact I posted that early in this thread. And I don't compare a SF P60 (incans) to LED's like you're doing. As far as the P60L. I agree that its not super bright but I've used them and would use them again. They get the job done just fine. How are they junk? I have yet to have one fail.
I stick with Surefire because of their CS. They have replaced a couple of lights without question for issues that I caused.
I have a couple of other branded lights for around the house but anything more rugged and it is SF all the way.
They gave me reason to believe that they support me in whatever I do, and comfortably return that loyalty.
Besides, the military/LEO discount takes the pain of the price out of it....
toasterlocker
08-03-12, 22:13
I'm arguing that SF is not necessarily inferior because they don't have the latest and greates run times, lumens and dumb ass options. They stick to proven and simple products. I like that. I'll say it again, there are those of us who could care less about the "neat guy" options.
And all I'm saying is that Surefire isn't the only company to offer the kind of simple products you are talking about. So it really isn't an argument to go with Surefire.
As for the original P60, I only mention because I've run into people who actually argue that incan is better:rolleyes:. And I may have exaggerated in calling the P60LED "junk," as it is usable, but it is mediocre at best when it comes to P60 sized drop ins, both in terms of brightness, runtime, and construction.
Strider5.56
08-12-12, 23:05
I have a few surefires, however they are way over priced. With the flood of similar features and quality for less I often wonder when the sun will set for surefire. I use to drink the surefire kool-aid until my Z2 combat light fell off a tool cart in the garage and hit the floor and cracked the lense like a jigsaw puzzle. The light still worked however. I took my way cheaper O-light I use everyday at work T-25 model and conducted the same off the tool cart drop 12 times and the lense never cracked. I don't think surefire is worth the money. However I called surefire and they sent me a new lense assembly free no questions asked. Plus 1 on customer service. Not so sure I could do the same with O-light.
As for the original P60, I only mention because I've run into people who actually argue that incan is better:rolleyes:.
I can't imagine going back to incan. :blink:
Doc Safari
08-17-12, 09:38
The new pricing is making me look at alternatives to SF.
Not only that but I'm finding that (apparently) the barrel diameters of lights like the G2X and 6P series are not quite the same as the old G2.
I've been pouring over various websites looking for quoted dimensions, and what little I've found has led me to believe that the newer SF models won't fit the VLTOR scout mount and others made for the old G2.
I thought I was good to go with the G2, KX4 130 lumen LED head and click-on-click-off tail switch.
Now I find myself scrambling for spares so I don't have to pay SF's exhorbitant prices and have to replace my mounts.
Doc...
Do you need Old School G2 lights? I have two old incans in a drawer at home. They're bone stock, but if you need the bodies, I'll sell them dirt cheap.
Doc Safari
08-17-12, 10:07
Doc...
Do you need Old School G2 lights? I have two old incans in a drawer at home. They're bone stock, but if you need the bodies, I'll sell them dirt cheap.
No, that's cool, Thanks. :D
I'm in the "two is one; one is none" camp so I have to have a complete one in the drawer in case I break one of the ones I've got mounted.
What I (and others I think) really need is to be pointed to a more modern tactical light that will fit the same mounts as the G2 did, and not have a price inching its way toward 2 bills.
Ok. Cool.
I need to order another SolarForce. I have an SBR in need of a light. That will be my project for the day. :p
There are a number of actual users that could give a crap about more options, brighter lights etc.
There's also a number of actual users who can't seemed to be bothered with looking beyond Surefire, regardless of what their actual needs are.
Those of us that need a light to survive don't necessarily want the latest greatest brightest light that requires twisting turning and multiple button combinations to cycle through 20 modes of bs. Further more, a 300 lumen light is a no go when it comes to needs of many actual users. There are those that use flashlights as necessary tools to get the job done. There are also people who consider flashlights a hobby. Get it?
Yeah, I get it. You want a light with a single output that comes on when you press the tailcap.
There are non-SF lights that do that. And they'll be brighter, lighter, smaller, cheaper, and have better battery life.
"Too bright!" Yeah, ok, you might not want 300 lumens for indoor use.
There are still non-SF lights that do that. And they'll be lighter, smaller, cheaper, and have better battery life.
"I don't want smaller or lighter, because I like carrying extra weight and bulk." Ok... I guess...
There are still non-SF lights that do that. And they'll be cheaper, and have better battery life.
"I want shorter battery life, because I like buying extra batteries, and enjoy having my light die on me at inopportune moments."
There are still... no, wait, you might have to stick with SF on that one.
I'm arguing that SF is not necessarily inferior because they don't have the latest and greates run times, lumens and dumb ass options. They stick to proven and simple products.
But they are inferior by every measurable metric. That doesn't mean that they are junk by any means - they're still great lights. But there are better out there, and for 1/3 to 1/2 the cost. Just because you perceive a need for the inferior product does not make it not-inferior, it just makes it what you want.Me, I'd rather get the better light for less money and spend the rest on practice ammo.
As for "proven" - We've been hearing for years how LED's are better, particularly for weaponlights, because they handle the recoil better than an incan. Yet SF was the last company to jump on the LED bandwagon. So where was that LED tech being proven?
SF just revamped their lineup, what, a year ago? All those new LED models are new, vs non-SF LED lights that have been around 3-5 years or more. Which ones would you say are more proven?
Nevermind...this is a stupid arguement. Clearly real world use is no match for your measurable metrics, your paper trail of data and white wall hunting experience. I'll stick with inferior products when it counts.
Alaskapopo
08-19-12, 00:34
What's wrong with Streamlight? I vastly prefer SL over SF.
Stream light weapon lights suck in my experience. Their hand helds are ok but do not compete with Surefire. As for customer service I had two switch go out on the older M3 weapon light both just past the limited warranty Streamlight has and they would not replace either. The switch cost $65 when the light was only worth about $90 at the time.
Pat
charmcitycop
08-26-12, 21:14
.....
Stream light weapon lights suck in my experience. Their hand helds are ok but do not compete with Surefire. As for customer service I had two switch go out on the older M3 weapon light both just past the limited warranty Streamlight has and they would not replace either. The switch cost $65 when the light was only worth about $90 at the time.
Pat
the m3 is made by insight. streamlight makes the tlr series.
There's also a number of actual users who can't seemed to be bothered with looking beyond Surefire, regardless of what their actual needs are.
Yeah, I get it. You want a light with a single output that comes on when you press the tailcap.
There are non-SF lights that do that. And they'll be brighter, lighter, smaller, cheaper, and have better battery life.
"Too bright!" Yeah, ok, you might not want 300 lumens for indoor use.
There are still non-SF lights that do that. And they'll be lighter, smaller, cheaper, and have better battery life.
"I don't want smaller or lighter, because I like carrying extra weight and bulk." Ok... I guess...
There are still non-SF lights that do that. And they'll be cheaper, and have better battery life.
"I want shorter battery life, because I like buying extra batteries, and enjoy having my light die on me at inopportune moments."
There are still... no, wait, you might have to stick with SF on that one.
But they are inferior by every measurable metric. That doesn't mean that they are junk by any means - they're still great lights. But there are better out there, and for 1/3 to 1/2 the cost. Just because you perceive a need for the inferior product does not make it not-inferior, it just makes it what you want.Me, I'd rather get the better light for less money and spend the rest on practice ammo.
As for "proven" - We've been hearing for years how LED's are better, particularly for weaponlights, because they handle the recoil better than an incan. Yet SF was the last company to jump on the LED bandwagon. So where was that LED tech being proven?
SF just revamped their lineup, what, a year ago? All those new LED models are new, vs non-SF LED lights that have been around 3-5 years or more. Which ones would you say are more proven?
did you include reliable in one of your initial examples of better? I think I noticed you didn't...
did you consider that surefire may not have released their led offerigs for the world to test but instead tested their led lineups in corporate privacy so I wouldn't have to be a beta tester?
Strider5.56
07-04-13, 21:13
I've had great experiences with the Pelican M6 series. I don't know about engineering and research that goes into it like other companies, but it's been on par with my G2 and C2 Surefires for function, lumen output and battery life as well as being utterly unbreakable. It's been my go to light on duty for the past five years. And cheaper than the high end Surefires as well.
I have a few surefires, however they are way over priced. With the flood of similar features and quality for less I often wonder when the sun will set for surefire. I use to drink the surefire kool-aid until my Z2 combat light fell off a tool cart in the garage and hit the floor and cracked the lense like a jigsaw puzzle. The light still worked however. I took my way cheaper O-light I use everyday at work T-25 model and conducted the same off the tool cart drop 12 times and the lense never cracked. I don't think surefire is worth the money. However I called surefire and they sent me a new lense assembly free no questions asked. Plus 1 on customer service. Not so sure I could do the same with O-light.
Update, My O-light tail switch quit working, and while inspecting the light I also noticed dust inside the lamp bezel. I use the olight T25 everyday at work as a Detective. I had his light for about 17 months when I broke. It has a 2 year warranty. I called Olight which now was pushing another named light. The ass-clown on the phone kept trying to sell me one of their new lights with a lifetime warranty. I told him I just wanted this one fixed and it was under warranty. The. He wanted to charge me $35 for a tail switch and 40 for a bezel. I only paid $45 for the whole light at a gunshow new. I told him a lifetime warranty on the new light did not impress me seeing as they would not honor this warranty. Finally he put the manager on the phone. He told me to send it in and they would repair it for free like the warranty stated. So I get it back in a few days surprisingly. Also to my surprise it looks like used parts are on it. Tail cap rubber button was semi smoothed over from wear. Bezel had a few scratches and one nice ding from a drop. This was not my parts redone. It worked though. Now the tail light switch is starting to go again. So I am in the market to buy a new one. Probably going to be surefire or streamlight. From an officer/ former Infantryman's point of view, they just work, even when abused. Lets face it, anything man made can break, at least surefire honors warranties in my experience without the BS. The Chinese lights like olight are fine if you only use them once in a while. My dads olight he bought the same day I bought mine has served him well. It sits in the dash of his Jeep Wangler. I think he has used it maybe 3 times for a total of less than 10 minutes. Another thing to consider is all the geek clicks modes, another olight I have is bad to jump into another mode when tactically clearing a building. I like the on off only in a tailcap.
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