View Full Version : Test for a "lower quality" AR15
I have what is thought of by most as the title reads.
I have no plans to sell this weapon, so please no "sell that POS and buy a Colt/DD/BCM, etc".
I was thinking a good test would be to go through 3 full magazines dumps, let the weapon cool for 5 minutes and do it again through 4 cycles (360 rounds).
I plan on doing this my next trip to the range.
If I was able to go through those 360 rounds w/o a malfunction, I feel this would be sufficient to use as a home defense weapon, what do you think?
I am open to suggestions for what I can do at the range, don't plan on going through a course or anything like that at this time.
The weapon I have is a Windham Weaponry MPC.
I don't know much about the specifics of "testing" a firearm/lower, but since you've initially stated you are not going to sell/trade it, seems to me like you're stuck with it regardless! :rolleyes: Hope it runs well for you! In the end, it's all about whether or not YOU are satisfied and comfortable with skimping on a few dollars, thereby increasing the risk of failure/stoppage with said "lower quality manufacturer".
I began with a RRA middy and it ran great and I learned what I like and dislike on a fighting AR; but once I found M4C and have been absorbing as much info here as possible, I sold it and built an LMT/BCM combo and am much happier with it and feel much more comfortable about it being my go-to fighting weapon.
I'd advise against asking for recommendations, then immediately closing the door on what you know will be the first things recommended from a very experienced and knowledgeable community (trade/sell/attend a class). They repeat the 'BCM/LMT/Colt/DD' thing for a reason you know..
My .02.. Stay safe and best of luck!
Regardless of what AR you have, I think you'd get more mileage out of concentrating on accuracy and practical shooting rather than just doing mag dumps. Think your mag dump idea is unnecessary and a waste of ammo - you might as well use those 360 rounds as part of getting your skills up. Just do a mix of rapid fire/slow fire, but aim to hit what you are shooting at.
I never buy this "shoot x rounds and call it good" concept. The more your rifle is in use doing meaningful training, the more you'll come to trust it and will improve your own skills too.
None of that really matters. First, become familiar with how and AR is SUPPOSED to be built (read my day in the life of a BM dealer thread).
Then go through everything on the gun and fix anything that is wrong. Assuming everything is ok, realize that the gun is most likely over gassed (can measure the gas port if you like) and then buy an H2 buffer.
Once that is complete, sign up for some carbine schools with said gun and see how it does!
Good luck....
C4
The problem is that your so-called test has no established protocols. Where did you get the number 360?
No one will argue that your newly branded Bushmaster can't serve as a defense gun. It certainly could. But, you will have to address the known issues first.
That means you know what to look for, and correct it. Ultimately it comes down to doing your research ahead of time. Your sample of one may be just fine and give you years of good service, but a smart person looks at the stats and chooses something that has a track record and known performance level (that also doesn't mean that DD/Colt/BCM,etc..) cannot make a mistake or put out a lemon.
I have what is thought of by most as the title reads.
I have no plans to sell this weapon, so please no "sell that POS and buy a Colt/DD/BCM, etc".
I was thinking a good test would be to go through 3 full magazines dumps, let the weapon cool for 5 minutes and do it again through 4 cycles (360 rounds).
I plan on doing this my next trip to the range.
If I was able to go through those 360 rounds w/o a malfunction, I feel this would be sufficient to use as a home defense weapon, what do you think?
I am open to suggestions for what I can do at the range, don't plan on going through a course or anything like that at this time.
The weapon I have is a Windham Weaponry MPC.
If this is your chosen route, then I would suggest not wasting time nor ammo on "ammo dumps"...Do some drills.
You will find some decent reload, malf drills etc. on youtube. As you are not willing to take a class at this time, it will help a little, but training always trumps gear. Training is not standing at a range, and shooting a paper target. It is more dynamic.
FWIW
Regardless of what AR you have, I think you'd get more mileage out of concentrating on accuracy and practical shooting rather than just doing mag dumps. Think your mag dump idea is unnecessary and a waste of ammo - you might as well use those 360 rounds as part of getting your skills up. Just do a mix of rapid fire/slow fire, but aim to hit what you are shooting at.
I never buy this "shoot x rounds and call it good" concept. The more your rifle is in use doing meaningful training, the more you'll come to trust it and will improve your own skills too.
Concur.
Track and document/note any and every stoppage or malfunction you have. Correct the cause (not symptom) as you go.
Eventually you may (or may not) come to the same conclusion others have arrived at over the expenditure of hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition and training hours.
Once you have re-invented the wheel please tell us your conclusions. Not meant to sound critical or snarky -- you've chosen this as your home defense gun.
Just shoot the dang thing OP. Practice with it. Find it's deficiencies, and find yours. Work on fixing them. Practice and more practice. There's not some magical round count that will tell you if you've got a "dud." If you shoot 340 rounds without issue, maybe a malf. would've happened on the 341st round, maybe not. Maybe it won't happen until the 5,000th round, maybe before. Shoot it, maintain it. Love the hobby and get good at it. After a while, you will desire the next step.
Your confidence should come from your skills, not from your weapon. Once your skills get better, you'll demand a better weapon. It'll work itself out.
Buying a cheap rifle and never using it is not good for anybody - neither is buying an expensive one and not using it.
Thanks for everyone's comments. I appreciate them and magazine dumps appears to not be the best route.
I just thought that this would put "stress" on the weapon and some of it short comings might show up sooner.
C4 - I have seriously thought about getting a H buffer for it, but should I just go with a H2 instead?
I have read a lot about BM being over gassed, so I felt that since "BM" made the weapon, that there is a good chance it is as you have said.
Will this effect anything being it is a commercial buffer tube?
Thanks.
Thanks for everyone's comments. I appreciate them and magazine dumps appears to not be the best route.
I just thought that this would put "stress" on the weapon and some of it short comings might show up sooner.
C4 - I have seriously thought about getting a H buffer for it, but should I just go with a H2 instead?
I have read a lot about BM being over gassed, so I felt that since "BM" made the weapon, that there is a good chance it is as you have said.
Will this effect anything being it is a commercial buffer tube?
Thanks.
Ya, most AR's that don't follow set standards are over gassed (as a general rule). So go with an H2.
The commercial RE is fine. Its main limitations are stock options. They also tend to be weaker than a mil-spec one, but this only really matters when you are "mortaring" a stuck round.
C4
HackerF15E
06-11-12, 13:21
The best answer is to just go shoot it for your own practice and proficiency. If you feel the need to have an actual event which in your mind would serve as a "test", then sign up for a tactical carbine class or three.
Either way, the skills that you learn and develop during practicing for the course, and taking the courses themselves, are far more important than proving the durability and reliability of your rifle. Enjoy the ride -- that's what the sport is all about, and NOT the toys.
Gents, please clear something up:
Aren't pretty much all military weapons overgassed by nature? Or does "overgassed" in this thread mean much more than what is customary?
I suggest that you leave the proclaimed torture tests up to the manufacturers. IF your weapon has a manufacturers warranty, you COULD be voiding it by abusing it. If you have a sub-par rifle, and your mag dumping mag after mag, I am of the belief that you are going above the Military's max recommended rate of fire...I think that number is around 15 rounds per minute of sustained fire.
Also, if you did this "torture test" with steel, then you really shit the bed. Don't think for a minute the "manufacturer will never know" yes they will! IF they have a lab, or have access to one, they will pretty easily be able to tell it was abused w/steel case ammo.
Just my .02, but you really shouldn't just be beating the shit out of your rifle in an attempt to impress people here...it ain't going to happen.
Let the manufacturers and the industry pros, and gun rag writers do this. UNLESS, you have a large disposable income, in which case ROCK ON. Just don't expect people to ooh or ahh around here because your rifle stood up to a short lived "torture test of 340 rounds"
Just don't expect people to ooh or ahh around here because your rifle stood up to a short lived "torture test of 340 rounds"
However, I will give you a gold star. :-D
Gents, please clear something up:
Aren't pretty much all military weapons overgassed by nature? Or does "overgassed" in this thread mean much more than what is customary?
Overgassed in this context means that the gas port is larger than MIL spec gas ports. This is done for several reasons but mainly so the weapon will function on under powered ammunition. For example, my rifles will not cycle Herters steel cased ammunition and my buddy's Bushmaster eats it up all day long.
With an overgassed (or rifle with a larger gas port) gun, your bolt will cycle faster giving it more felt recoil.
I don't plan on doing magazine dumps.
Most likely I'll do as SA80Dan suggested and do a combination of rapid/slow fire.
Also plan on researching on youtube, etc on some other type drills I can do.
Are there any places in the DFW area that offer carbine courses?
I have a friend with 80 acres so I'll just go to his place so I don't have to worry about any range rules.
C4 - I found that my WW MPC has gas port sizes of .063" - if that means anything...
!Nvasi0n - 15 rounds per minute of sustained fire seems light. Although, I never did a great deal of training with the M4 while I was in the USMC as I was a garrison MP, but I recall the times I did train with them we fired a lot more than 15 rounds sustained fire per minute and I don't recall ever hearing anything like that. During my military time I enjoyed the training with the M4, but didn’t really care too much about the technical side.
My rifle has a life time warranty and I never plan on firing steel case through it.
Thanks again for everyone's suggestions.
!Nvasi0n - 15 rounds per minute of sustained fire seems light. Although, I never did a great deal of training with the M4 while I was in the USMC as I was a garrison MP, but I recall the times I did train with them we fired a lot more than 15 rounds sustained fire per minute and I don't recall ever hearing anything like that. During my military time I enjoyed the training with the M4, but didn’t really care too much about the technical side.
Reading the standard issue operators manual isn't generally considered 'the technical side'
ARMY TM 9-1005-319-10; AIR FORCE TO.11W3-55-41; NAVY SW 370-BUJ-OPl-010
OPERATOR’S MANUAL, OCTOBER 1998
Pages b and c
Sustained rate of fire for the weapon is 12-15 rounds per minute.
This is the actual rate of fire that a weapon can continue to deliver for an indefinite length of time without serious overheating.
Sustained rate of fire should never be exceeded except under circumstances of extreme urgency.
Exceeding the sustained rate of fire can result in a catastrophic failure
of the barrel and injury or death to personnel
Pages 0002 00-3 and 0002 00-4
M4/M4A1 CARBINE
Caliber ................................. 5.56 mm
Weight ................................... w/30 (loaded) round mag 7.5 lb
Length ................................... Buttstock Closed 29.75 in
Buttstock Opened 33.0 in
Mechanical Features:
Rifling . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (RH 1/7 twist)
Detachable carrying handle w/integral accessory mounting rail
Buttstock has four positions; closed, 1 R open, 3/4 open, and fully Open.
Firing Characteristics:
Muzzle Velocity . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,970 fps
Chamber pressure . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 52,000 psi
Cyclic Rate of Fire................. 700-970 rpm (approx.)
Fire Selector ............................ SAFE-SEMI-BURST (M4)
SAFE-SEMI-AUTO (M4A1)
Max Effective Rate of Fire:
Semi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 45rpm
Burst/Auto . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 90 rpm
Sustained Rate of Fire 12/15 rpm
Max Effective Range 500 meters (individual/point targets)
600 meters (area targets)
Max Range 3600 meters
Reading the standard issue operators manual isn't generally considered 'the technical side'
ARMY TM 9-1005-319-10; AIR FORCE TO.11W3-55-41; NAVY SW 370-BUJ-OPl-010
OPERATOR’S MANUAL, OCTOBER 1998
Pages b and c
Sustained rate of fire for the weapon is 12-15 rounds per minute.
This is the actual rate of fire that a weapon can continue to deliver for an indefinite length of time without serious overheating.
Sustained rate of fire should never be exceeded except under circumstances of extreme urgency.
Exceeding the sustained rate of fire can result in a catastrophic failure
of the barrel and injury or death to personnel
Pages 0002 00-3 and 0002 00-4
M4/M4A1 CARBINE
Caliber ................................. 5.56 mm
Weight ................................... w/30 (loaded) round mag 7.5 lb
Length ................................... Buttstock Closed 29.75 in
Buttstock Opened 33.0 in
Mechanical Features:
Rifling . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (RH 1/7 twist)
Detachable carrying handle w/integral accessory mounting rail
Buttstock has four positions; closed, 1 R open, 3/4 open, and fully Open.
Firing Characteristics:
Muzzle Velocity . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,970 fps
Chamber pressure . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 52,000 psi
Cyclic Rate of Fire................. 700-970 rpm (approx.)
Fire Selector ............................ SAFE-SEMI-BURST (M4)
SAFE-SEMI-AUTO (M4A1)
Max Effective Rate of Fire:
Semi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 45rpm
Burst/Auto . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 90 rpm
Sustained Rate of Fire 12/15 rpm
Max Effective Range 500 meters (individual/point targets)
600 meters (area targets)
Max Range 3600 meters
Thank you for posting this!
I knew I remembered reading this when studying the "what really happened at Wanat" situation.
The was much controversy about the weapons inability to keep up with sustained high rate if fire and not experience short stoppages thy could be life threatening.
I appreciate you posting this!
So yeah, we have all probably exceeded the M4's rate of fire maximum either by doing several mag dumps, full auto, or not...it's easy to surpass short term.
But like most range warriors, a self proclaimed torture test isn't really proving much other than you like to waste ammo and show off in general.
And I'm almost positive the military didn't base the 12-15 rpm rate of sustained fire by firing one weapon for 360 some rounds either.
I don't plan on doing magazine dumps.
Most likely I'll do as SA80Dan suggested and do a combination of rapid/slow fire.
Also plan on researching on youtube, etc on some other type drills I can do.
Are there any places in the DFW area that offer carbine courses?
I have a friend with 80 acres so I'll just go to his place so I don't have to worry about any range rules.
C4 - I found that my WW MPC has gas port sizes of .063" - if that means anything...
!Nvasi0n - 15 rounds per minute of sustained fire seems light. Although, I never did a great deal of training with the M4 while I was in the USMC as I was a garrison MP, but I recall the times I did train with them we fired a lot more than 15 rounds sustained fire per minute and I don't recall ever hearing anything like that. During my military time I enjoyed the training with the M4, but didn’t really care too much about the technical side.
My rifle has a life time warranty and I never plan on firing steel case through it.
Thanks again for everyone's suggestions.
Tiger Valley holds courses at Elm Fork and their Waco facility. As a matter of fact, I'm doing the 2 hour carbine course (firing from cover) tonight at Elm Fork.
1859sharps
06-12-12, 12:10
how about for a "test"...
Keep the rifle stock as it came from the manufacture for now. then keep a written record of how many rounds you shoot each time out and what kind of shooting did you do etc. was the environment a "clean" rang, out in the desert, public land, someone back yard. did the rifle get dirty from the environment (verse just shooting) and if so how did it do.
Then report back when you hit about 3000 to 5000 rounds. what broke (if anything), how did it hold up to the higher round count, did it regularly jam, fail to eject etc. I am sure others can give you some additional ideas of things to look for consider.
something along those lines would be more informative than 360 rounds. 360 rounds, heck even 500 rounds may seem like a lot to some, but it's a drop in the bucket and really doesn't tell us anything.
http://www.tigervalley.com/tvciv_1day.php
Thanks mdoan300,
The "One Day Carbine Workup" looks like a good starting point.
And Waco isn't all that far from me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzfm4pYhIyY
I think this weapon does a bit more than 15 rounds of substained fire per minute... gets through (unless I missed one) 28 magazine before a malfunction.
Impressive
everyusernametaken
06-12-12, 15:05
I think this weapon does a bit more than 15 rounds of substained fire per minute... gets through (unless I missed one) 28 magazine before a malfunction.
That sustained figure is for continuous fire over longer periods. The barrel can sink enough heat to handle significantly higher rates for short periods, but it can only reject heat quickly enough to keep up with a relatively slow rate over longer periods without overheating.
(video link) I think this weapon does a bit more than 15 rounds of substained fire per minute... gets through (unless I missed one) 28 magazine before a malfunction.
And how well did it work later in the day?
The next day?
Week?
Til the end of its useful service life?
Oh, wait, that probably did end its useful service life.
Suwannee Tim
06-13-12, 20:16
There is no amount or type of testing you can do on a sample size of one that will produce information of any value.
There is no amount or type of testing you can do on a sample size of one that will produce information of any value.
^That makes sense. Each rifle will vary a little.
Questions for you guys:
How many rounds should a good gun be able to handle before the barrel or bolt components show serious signs of wear?
If condition specific, then which conditions produce the most wear? I'm assuming rapid-fire/high-heat?
I have what is thought of by most as the title reads.
I have no plans to sell this weapon, so please no "sell that POS and buy a Colt/DD/BCM, etc".
I was thinking a good test would be to go through 3 full magazines dumps, let the weapon cool for 5 minutes and do it again through 4 cycles (360 rounds).
I plan on doing this my next trip to the range.
If I was able to go through those 360 rounds w/o a malfunction, I feel this would be sufficient to use as a home defense weapon, what do you think?
I am open to suggestions for what I can do at the range, don't plan on going through a course or anything like that at this time.
The weapon I have is a Windham Weaponry MPC.
Large samples of teir 1 weapons have proven that in general after an initial break in and testing for function they are good to go with standard maintenance. Other lower quality firearms don't show that kind of endurance and end up breaking stuff over their life.
So no matter what test you devise in my mind all you are doing is getting the rifle one round closer to something going wrong every time you pull the trigger if it isn't made of quality components to begin with.
That can be ok for awhile. I had a cmmg rifle that i put 700 rounds through in one day with out a hiccup. That doesn't mean I liked the possibility of betting my life on it. So she has found a new home and a BCM has taken her place.
Before shooting it I'd look under the hood for properly staked gas key. And ultimately if I was stuck with that particular weapon I'd spring the money for a new BCG from a more reputable/proven manufacturer.
In the mean time I'd absorb as much info as possible on this forum.
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