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View Full Version : 6.8 versus .308, LE use



mike240
08-28-06, 21:58
Where can I find more data on the 6.8 spc in regards to terminal ballistics. Given the distances and liabilities that we in LE face, I would like to see more. Based on what I know at this time, I think that it needs exploration for the LE role. The .308 has a great amount of; and usually "too" much penetration (shoot throughs) for the distances that we are asked to deliver precision fire. I think that there was time when there was good reason for law enforcement to ride the coattails of the military in regards to the .308, but the roles are distinctly different (that is also the issue with a lot of sniper training being done for police). At any rate, the 6.8 may need more exploration for police and I would like more info and opinion. I would also like a Remington police 6.8 to test, since we do all our own "FBI protocol" and other ammo tests...Thanks in advance.

Derek_Connor
08-28-06, 23:50
very interested in this also....in the last couple of weeks I have seen some very impressive 6.8 SBRs and SPRs.

It strikes the male gene of, "I want."

:)

Aubrey
08-29-06, 12:06
DocGKR is the source.

fly223
08-30-06, 16:47
Interested as well.



From,
Joe....

shark31
09-07-06, 09:13
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=1097
This is the link to my review of the 6.8SPC in the custom builds thread. I think that this is a PERFECT law enforcement round. I've had shots with the Hornady V-max where there wasn't even an exit wound and the max distance I've shot is 200 yards. Given that a deer isn't a person and it does have extra mass to fragment in, I wouldn't outright state that it's the best LE round out there, but based on what I've seen so far with this round on living targets, I'd say it's the closest thing to perfection I have access to. In my opinion a .308 will never be replaced, but if you are clearing a house or making a hostage saving prcision shot with your people in the immediate area, or any situation that calls for a "one shot stop" without over-penetration, then this is the round for you.
(It's like watching a cartoon seeing a deer get hit with this round, the last one spun on her back and was laying there dead with her legs sticking strait up in the air like a cockroach!)

Zeef
01-02-07, 02:55
Where can I find more data on the 6.8 spc in regards to terminal ballistics. Given the distances and liabilities that we in LE face, I would like to see more. Based on what I know at this time, I think that it needs exploration for the LE role. .

Like .308, 6.8spc is overkill, in my opinion, for law enforcement apps unless you are a counter-sniper. You have over-penitration problems with 223. Why ask for more trouble?

Z

DocGKR
01-02-07, 07:58
You have over-penitration problems with 223.

Zeef, are you kidding?!?!?

As the last 25 years of wound ballistic research and forensic analysis has clearly and repeatedly demonstrated in both lab testing and OIS incident results, .223 in general has the LEAST penetration of any commonly used LE ammunition.

mike240
01-02-07, 14:03
Like .308, 6.8spc is overkill, in my opinion, for law enforcement apps unless you are a counter-sniper. You have over-penitration problems with 223. Why ask for more trouble?

Z

I am specifically talking about 6.8 in the LEO sniper role where the .308 has great terminal ballistics but without a doubt endangers other innocent persons and teammates due to over penetration. In regards to the .223 over penetrating I too can argue that one. In the Phoenix metro are there have been numerous LEO .223 shootings with one shot stops and no exit wounds. Most of these involved the use of the Federal 55 grain Gameking bullet.

SHIVAN
01-02-07, 14:13
"Over-Penetration" indicates that a round has entered a target, expended energy on that target, and has exited the target in various states of expansion, while then causing collateral damage to innocents or property after exiting the target.

A "one shot stop, with no exit wound" = very good performance & sufficient, yet unknown, penetration.

MH64
01-18-07, 11:49
You have over-penitration problems with 223. Why ask for more trouble?
Z

This has come up with numerous departments that switched from 9mm based carbines and subguns to 223 platforms because the 223 has less over-penetration capability by comparison.

Thats not to say that a 223 wont over-penetrate, just that it has much less potential to do so compared to say 9mm.

FALbert
01-27-07, 16:05
I'm tempted to buy a Remingtom 700 LTR in 6.8 SPC at a local shop. This would serve as my tacti-cool bolt gun. I could just buy a 700 PSS in .308 (I had one years ago), but I figure since I wouldn't be shooting FMJ surplus in this platform, why not go for something with less recoil than the .308 but more hitting power than the .223. I figure good match ammo is going to cost me anyway no matter what caliber I buy. My shooting will be limited to a 200 yard range. I wanted to build a 6.8 SPC upper for my AR last year. Canned the idea for now as I can't own hi-cap magazines for the upper where I live, plus the cost of the upper alone would exceed the cost for an entire 700 LTR. That extra money can go into some kick-ass optic and mounts instead.

One Shot
03-17-07, 22:53
Overpenetration? Any time you fire a bullet, there is always the risk that a bullet can "overpenetrate." The thing to do is just assume that your bullet will go completely through the intended target. You make your shot so that if the bullet does happen to go all the way through the target it will harmlessly strike something beyond the target, like a wall. In other words, correctly line up your shot as well as correctly time your shot. One of the fluke cases of overpenetration in my area was when two punks broke into a restaurant. The owner met the punks half way and fired one round of .40 S&W from his pistol. The bullet centerpunched one punk and killed him outright. The bullet went completely through the first punk and struck the second punk in the arm and actually broke the second guy's arm. One shot took the meaness right out of two guys. That was an accidental case of properly aligning your shot. There is no reason why we can't deliberately, if time allows, align our shots. Just try to think ahead.

RyanB
03-19-07, 01:45
A SWAT team in the Valley of the Sun is switching back to 55gr SPs after an incident of overpenetration with 75gr TAP. Shot was to the neck, fatal to the suspect and mildly injurious to the hostage.

Thats all I know, its from a reliable source.

DocGKR
03-19-07, 03:51
RyanB,

I hope your kidding...assuming they had a good reason to target the neck, didn't anyone realize the width/depth of a neck? Do they really think switching to a 55 gr JSP would change the outcome of a neck shot?!?!?

RyanB
03-19-07, 05:21
You're asking the same questions I asked. It doesn't make sense to me, but I'm reporting it exactly as I heard it. Frankly I expect any bullet to completely penetrate a human neck, and then some. :confused:

Lumpy196
03-19-07, 11:02
Dont always believe what you've heard...its a PART of the story.


That agency switched for several other factors as well. Sorry, but Im not giving more detail than that.

John_Wayne777
03-22-07, 08:28
You have over-penitration problems with 223. Why ask for more trouble?

Z


That depends on what you mean by "over penetration" problems.

I haven't heard a lot of concern from 5.56 users that their rounds will blast through a bad guy and hit an innocent.

I do, however, know of a SWAT team that uses 40 grain JHP ammo in their 5.56 weapons because they do dual entries as a matter of routine and want to minimize the possibility of blue on blue fire if somebody misses.

John_Wayne777
03-22-07, 08:29
Dont always believe what you've heard...its a PART of the story.


That agency switched for several other factors as well.

That's usually the case. There are a lot of complex factors that go into deciding on a duty load....at least there are if people are taking the decision seriously.

longshot
08-14-08, 12:28
Where can I find more data on the 6.8 spc in regards to terminal ballistics. Given the distances and liabilities that we in LE face, I would like to see more. Based on what I know at this time, I think that it needs exploration for the LE role. The .308 has a great amount of; and usually "too" much penetration (shoot throughs) for the distances that we are asked to deliver precision fire. I think that there was time when there was good reason for law enforcement to ride the coattails of the military in regards to the .308, but the roles are distinctly different (that is also the issue with a lot of sniper training being done for police). At any rate, the 6.8 may need more exploration for police and I would like more info and opinion. I would also like a Remington police 6.8 to test, since we do all our own "FBI protocol" and other ammo tests...Thanks in advance.

www.68forums.com

Broadway
08-24-08, 13:10
From the wealth of info available on 68forums the real drawback seems to be the lack of availability of a production rifle that features the preferred barrel and chamber specs for the round as determined by testing.

MX5
09-27-08, 20:33
Another round worth considering is the .243 Win. It appears to have have advantages over .308/7.62 in LEO applications. Further testing is warranted. Doc likely has some insight into this.

Tspeis
09-28-08, 00:32
Certain .308 loads like Hornady's 110gr Urban TAP are designed to fragment early and reduce overpenetration, though I don't know what kind of terminal performance can be expected. Maybe someone with any experience with this load can chime in.


Tspeis

Cameron
09-28-08, 01:18
Cameron

dcmdon
12-10-08, 20:48
I dont know if it really applies to you pros. But to us amateurs, having reasonably priced ammo is a big deal. The 6.8 is still pretty pricey.

With a .308 deer gun, I can purchase quality, brass cased surplus ammo for practice, then switch to the fancy stuff when I'm actually shooting at something I want to kill.

To me, the weakest link in the rifle/ammunition/rifleman system is usually the rifleman. Anything you can do to promote lots of good practice is a will increase the effectiveness of the system.

Don

constructor
12-11-08, 03:07
If the DOD test lead to some form of adoption or if the 6.8 keeps growing at this rate a larger ammo manufacturer will pick up the 6.8 competition lowers prices.
I heard a rumor(unsubstantiated) that Winchester may be looking at it

dcmdon
12-11-08, 04:45
Agreed. Its a great round for the AR.

by the way. its corrected now, but I meant to say the weakest link is the RIFLEMAN.

Don

maximus83
12-12-08, 10:26
Another round worth considering is the .243 Win. It appears to have have advantages over .308/7.62 in LEO applications. Further testing is warranted. Doc likely has some insight into this.

Yes, I've seen some proposals even that the .243 (or some similar 6mm variant) be adopted as the standard service round. Like this one (http://www.chuckhawks.com/243_service_rifle.htm), for instance. Also, this article (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Assault.htm)--which reviews the history of military cartridges, shows a number of 6mm cartridges that have been considered as alternatives. IMHO, something in the 6mm to 6.5 range would be the best trade-off, but the current 6.8 spc will do just fine too, once the specs for the optimal rifle chambers and barrels are firm, and there is affordable ammo.