View Full Version : Magpul B.A.D. Lever...
Lockup1109
06-13-12, 11:43
Anyone use one? Ive read some people have problems with it making their bolt stay open while firing. I just dont see how thats possible.
If you use one would you reccomend it on a patrol/home defense carbine?
Thanks
I have over 4,000 rounds through my rifle with my Magpul BAD lever and I've never had a single malfunction or bolt lock back issue of any kind. It's been through 3 carbine classes, and personally I love it.
That being said, I know some people have had issues. I think it just depends on the rifle. If you like the idea, it might be worth getting one and trying it out. If you have any issues with it, get rid of it.
I have over 4,000 rounds through my rifle with my Magpul BAD lever and I've never had a single malfunction or bolt lock back issue of any kind. It's been through 3 carbine classes, and personally I love it.
That being said, I know some people have had issues. I think it just depends on the rifle. If you like the idea, it might be worth getting one and trying it out. If you have any issues with it, get rid of it.
This. Have 'em on all my rifles. I like 'em. Never personally had any kind of malf. with them.
sierra 223
06-13-12, 12:16
My department allowed them for testing but outlawed them. Sorry cant remember what the exact issue was. I only recall that our range staff was very much against their use.
Try the search button or Google the topic followed by m4carbine.net.
http://ns1.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=87347
Some people like it some dont. I've had a lower that it wouldn't work with and lowers that it worked perfectly with. Uppers, same thing. On a billet upper (i.e. Vltor MUR) you may have to file the back of the BAD to make it work. Running a redimod you'll have to either file the bad, the redimod or both.
Some like because it can (if it doesn't hinder the rifle's operation) speed up reloads (slightly) and speeds up clearing certain malfunctions. Some dont like it because they want to use the same manual of arms as a basic AR. It all boils down to personal preference and making sure YOUR rifle works with it, or doesn't, and what you want from it. Try one out is all I can say.
-Jax
Also, people adhere to the KISS mentality very closely and don't like crap in their trigger guards, except their trigger and their finger.
I can see both sides, but I've nothing but awesome luck with them. Wish they were 1-piece so they wouldn't move around on the paddle of the bolt catch, but that's remedied by filing the ribs of the paddle perfectly flat. I'm not a fan of the heavy, clunky 1-piece Phase 5 levers.
Anyone use one? Ive read some people have problems with it making their bolt stay open while firing. I just dont see how thats possible.
If you use one would you reccomend it on a patrol/home defense carbine?
Thanks
The MAIN purpose of the BAD is to allow the user to manipulate the BCG in a type 3 malfunction (without changing hands). Its SECONDARY function is to release the BCG after an "E" Reload.
With the development of anti-tilt followers, the number of type 3 malfunction we see is super rare these days. So there is really no need for the BAD lever IMHO.
With that out of the way, we have seen more AR's NOT work properly (because of the BAD) than any other device installed.
Just sayin.....
C4
Awesome1228
06-13-12, 12:37
There are many more experienced members who I'm sure will chime in, but as a relatively new AR shooter, I thought I would give you my perspective.
I have had one on my AR from day one. I didn't add it, it was on the gun when I got it. I had very limited AR usage prior. I've put seventeen hundred rounds through it in the time I have had it. No BAD lever related issues that I have seen. All of my failures have been user error or ammo related. (I was given 26 rounds of steel cased Russian ammo, and I had 7 malfunctions. It may have been the c-products mag I was using, I don't know but I have since retired that magazine.) Anyway, I personally really like the lever. I'm not experienced enough to say that it affects my reload speed, but I like the placement and function.
Awesome1228
06-13-12, 12:50
With that out of the way, we have seen more AR's NOT work properly (because of the BAD) than any other device installed.
Just sayin.....
C4
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what problems do you see as a result of the BAD? I have little experience with an AR without a BAD installed.
I like using it for left handed weapon manipulation. Specifically loading a magazine in an emergency reload and sending the bolt forward, you insert the mag with your right hand and with your right thumb, hit the bad to send the bolt forward.
I have small hands, it's hard for me to reach the bolt catch/release with my left hand.
Lockup1109
06-13-12, 13:23
Damn thanks for all the quick replies. Im gona order one and try it out on one of my extra rifles and give it a good test. If i like it maybe my patrol rifle will wear one... Time will tell.
Thanks again
Jeremy
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what problems do you see as a result of the BAD? I have little experience with an AR without a BAD installed.
In my experience with using three of them on different rifles over several thousand rounds, I experienced failures to hold the bolt open after the last round, premature bolt releases and a stripped torx screw head. As a lefty, I really wanted this component to work for me, but after giving it a fair shake felt the problems caused outweighed the benefits.
I use one, I like it mostly just for locking the bolt back. I do not use it to drop the bolt.
I haven't had any lockback issues since I installed. It wouldn't kill me to take it off though. I don't feel like its really "needed" just convenient.
Btw I'm in Moriches as well!
I've had mine on three different rifles now, a Colt M4, RRA varmint, and my Mega/BCM/RRA mixmaster, all with no issues or complaints other than the choice of torx bolts (too easy to strip it) I have no idea how many rounds I've shot with the BAD installed, at least 1K, probably much higher.
I like it, makes for some convenient operations at times, but it isn't one of those must have items, nice to have, but thats it really.
Lockup1109
06-13-12, 14:47
Jsop,
Nice to see someone else from my communist state here haha. See not all of us "new yarkers" are anti-gun haha. Where in moriches btw.
RogerinTPA
06-13-12, 14:48
I have 5 installed on 5 ARs, with several thousand rounds through each. I have also attended quite a few carbine courses, with no issues using them. Other's have. I see it as either a user/training issue or an installation issue. YMMV.
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what problems do you see as a result of the BAD? I have little experience with an AR without a BAD installed.
Bolt not locking back on last round and bolt releasing during an "E" reload are the two main ones. Every gun will be different and just because a gun runs with it, doesn't mean that it won't cause an issue at a later date (as the mag catch spring wears out).
C4
Bolt not locking back on last round and bolt releasing during an "E" reload are the two main ones. Every gun will be different and just because a gun runs with it, doesn't mean that it won't cause an issue at a later date (as the mag catch spring wears out).
C4
I tried it for a little while and removed it.
1. It actually wasn't and authorized upgrade
2. I experienced some of the malfunctions Grant lists above
3. While training, even under little stress, I found that I wouldn't use the BAD lever and reverted to what I was used to.
If you try it, make sure to practice to the point where you use it with out having to think about it. That was my experience. Yours may differ.
I've personally never had any issues with the BAD lever. I've used it for about two years, maybe a little less, in three classes plus my own range time. If the mag release spring gets squishy, replace it.
One other reason I may not have had any bolt releases during and E reload is because I use the bad lever as an index point for my trigger finger. Trigger finger goes up and underneath the BAD lever (holding it up) while reloading. Not sure that was a design feature, but it seemed like a logical thing to do, so you know right where it is to release the bolt.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-13-12, 17:44
It's nice on 3gun rifles to help show clear at the end of a stage. I run it on all my guns and I really miss it on my LMT MWS. I just feel more in control of the gun with it.
I have tried it on my Colt 6920 and only took the gun out once with the BAD lever installed. It ran flawlessly but in the end I wasn't sure I liked the idea of me risking accidentally hitting the lever sending the bolt forward when I'm reloading. Most of the time I hit the bolt catch to chamber a round on a fresh mag. I ended up removing the BAD lever and tossed it into my parts box.
Being a lefty I liked the concept but it interfered with a couple of my ambidexious magazine releases, and I did experience some of the malfunctions others have listed.
It's nice on 3gun rifles to help show clear at the end of a stage. I run it on all my guns and I really miss it on my LMT MWS. I just feel more in control of the gun with it.
Yep exactly, the BAD makes it much easier (for me) to show the R.O. you are clear.
Like Grant said I don't use it for reloads but the extra surface area on the bolt release helps sometimes.
Thats sort of a false statement concerning the reloads. I recently bought a Redi Mod and am going to run it for a few months and see if I want to keep it on. The BAD lever is a huge help with the Redi Mod if you can get it to run correctly with it installed.
-Jax
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-13-12, 20:32
Being a lefty I liked the concept but it interfered with a couple of my ambidexious magazine releases, and I did experience some of the malfunctions others have listed.
Good point. It won't work with the KAC ambi mag. To me, the BAD is more useful
ROUTEMICHIGAN
06-13-12, 20:57
I have over 6K rounds through my M4 with one and have had zero issues with my weapons function or manipulation. I don't use it during speed reloads-- I just hit the bolt release with my thumb after mag insertion. But, it does come in handy for remedial action and locking the bolt back. I took a course with Northern Red and I asked an instructor if any of them used one (he was an assaulter w/3rd SFG)-- his response, some do and some don't. He did not use one-- it's just one more thing bolted to your gun that can break off.
RogerinTPA
06-13-12, 21:58
Good point. It won't work with the KAC ambi mag. To me, the BAD is more useful
Agreed. That was another point for me not getting the SR-15. I had other issues (negative habit transfer/long established muscle memory working against me & non compatibility with common parts) when thinking about setting it up the same as my other ARs. As great an AR as the SR-15 is, I just didn't find it practical to go down that road. I had to pass.
I have over 6K rounds through my M4 with one and have had zero issues with my weapons function or manipulation. I don't use it during speed reloads-- I just hit the bolt release with my thumb after mag insertion. But, it does come in handy for remedial action and locking the bolt back. I took a course with Northern Red and I asked an instructor if any of them used one (he was an assaulter w/3rd SFG)-- his response, some do and some don't. He did not use one-- it's just one more thing bolted to your gun that can break off.
The beauty of the AR is that IF it breaks... you still have at least three ways to charge the gun from a locked back position.
1. Press the paddle, unless that's what broke.
2. Pull the charging handle, unless that broke too.
3. Mortar the damn rifle on the stock and charge the gun that way... unless the ground it broken too!
The BAD lever is a huge help with the Redi Mod if you can get it to run correctly with it installed.
My experience as well. I didn't like the odd paddle thingy that came with my Redi-Mod. The BAD lever is definitely a step up in reloading or reducing malfunctions with a Redi-Mod, regardless of whether you use the lever in the trigger guard, or the oversized paddle end. Had a little metal to metal contact between the lever and the mag well clamp, but no reliability problems (S&W lower); no WECSOG work needed.
'Course, having said all that, I took mine off. I removed the Redi-Mod for weight savings, and without it I don't have a problem using the bolt catch for reloads or malfunction clearance. Also keeps the manual of arms the same between my 3 guns.
Oh, and whoever said that choosing the Torx screw was stupid was on the money.
I have been running these type of devices for a few years which is even prior to the release of Magpul's version. My experiences have been nothing but positive in the many years and tens upon tens of thousands of rounds where I have them mounted on at least 10+ personal rifles. I will say that not all of my rifles wear one.
Many consider every .25 seconds in a gunfight to be a lifetime. I also tend to agree. So in essence I attempt to shave every bit of time off of whatever I do. I will say that something needs to be vetted to my own standards before I employ something on a critical use weapon. With this in mind on an average reload I save myself on average .35 seconds or 1.42 lifetimes and on a malfunction clearance I save on average 1.10 seconds or 4.4 lifetimes if my math is correct. ;)
They are not for everyone and one single device will run on every weapon. You must properly vet any new piece of gear, accessory etc..
Having said that here are my experiences
I discuss the Pro's and Con's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aibYvGyufgg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aibYvGyufgg)
How I run the device as a right or left hander shooter. I get some good benefits as a lefty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG2-iNxFqkU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG2-iNxFqkU)
Actual live fire comparison on reloads and malfunctions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCP7t3eRROs&feature=relmfu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCP7t3eRROs&feature=relmfu)
ROUTEMICHIGAN
06-13-12, 23:17
The beauty of the AR is that IF it breaks... you still have at least three ways to charge the gun from a locked back position.
1. Press the paddle, unless that's what broke.
2. Pull the charging handle, unless that broke too.
3. Mortar the damn rifle on the stock and charge the gun that way... unless the ground it broken too!
Yep- all excellent points.
ROUTEMICHIGAN
06-13-12, 23:24
I have been running these type of devices for a few years which is even prior to the release of Magpul's version. My experiences have been nothing but positive in the many years and tens upon tens of thousands of rounds where I have them mounted on at least 10+ personal rifles. I will say that not all of my rifles wear one.
Many consider every .25 seconds in a gunfight to be a lifetime. I also tend to agree. So in essence I attempt to shave every bit of time off of whatever I do. I will say that something needs to be vetted to my own standards before I employ something on a critical use weapon. With this in mind on an average reload I save myself on average .35 seconds or 1.42 lifetimes and on a malfunction clearance I save on average 1.10 seconds or 4.4 lifetimes if my math is correct. ;)
They are not for everyone and one single device will run on every weapon. You must properly vet any new piece of gear, accessory etc..
Having said that here are my experiences
I discuss the Pro's and Con's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aibYvGyufgg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aibYvGyufgg)
How I run the device as a right or left hander shooter. I get some good benefits as a lefty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG2-iNxFqkU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG2-iNxFqkU)
Actual live fire comparison on reloads and malfunctions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCP7t3eRROs&feature=relmfu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCP7t3eRROs&feature=relmfu)
Very helpful and informative. Thank you.
I have been running these type of devices for a few years which is even prior to the release of Magpul's version. My experiences have been nothing but positive in the many years and tens upon tens of thousands of rounds where I have them mounted on at least 10+ personal rifles. I will say that not all of my rifles wear one.
Many consider every .25 seconds in a gunfight to be a lifetime. I also tend to agree. So in essence I attempt to shave every bit of time off of whatever I do. I will say that something needs to be vetted to my own standards before I employ something on a critical use weapon. With this in mind on an average reload I save myself on average .35 seconds or 1.42 lifetimes and on a malfunction clearance I save on average 1.10 seconds or 4.4 lifetimes if my math is correct. ;)
They are not for everyone and one single device will run on every weapon. You must properly vet any new piece of gear, accessory etc..
Having said that here are my experiences
I discuss the Pro's and Con's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aibYvGyufgg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aibYvGyufgg)
How I run the device as a right or left hander shooter. I get some good benefits as a lefty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG2-iNxFqkU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG2-iNxFqkU)
Actual live fire comparison on reloads and malfunctions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCP7t3eRROs&feature=relmfu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCP7t3eRROs&feature=relmfu)
While I see the difference in your last video, and they both have the same limitations, I think doing the reload on a random round count may produce different results. Perhaps small results but in my experience, knowing what is coming skews results.
Having said that, I believe in the BAD lever and have it on all my rifles.
While I see the difference in your last video, and they both have the same limitations, I think doing the reload on a random round count may produce different results. Perhaps small results but in my experience, knowing what is coming skews results.
Having said that, I believe in the BAD lever and have it on all my rifles.I see what your saying but in reality the thought process of understanding what just happened is going to create time differences, no matter what remedial method is used. I am sure I will be faster when I understand what is about to happen. But I will show the same consistency between the BAD lever and without the BAD lever when I don't know what is about to happen. The difference in time is the process the mind makes as to what is the issue and what is the correct course of action. Once the user determines if a reload or a clearance is needed then that time frame of performing the reload or clearance is going to show the same consistencies in time differences with a BAD lever or without. So in essence everything being equal and running dummy rounds etc, the difference in times is the diagnostic in the mind not the actual performance of fixing the problem. So if it takes me .5 seconds to understand the issue, I will still consistently fix the problem faster with the BAD lever but I am just adding another .5 seconds for the diagnostic that my mind goes through. I have done this myself and even when I don't know what is about to happen or when it is going to happen, my times are consistently faster when using the BAD lever. Sure my times might be longer than what is shown in the video or when I know what is about to happen, but I am still consistently and significantly faster with the BAD lever. These are only my results and I will readily admit that varying skill levels or shooters may have different results.
In reality for my purposes, when the rifle does not go bang, I will more than likely be doing a transition to the pistol the majority of the time.
Just use quality mags with anti-tilt followers. And don't even think about using 20 round P-Mags with a BAD lever....it will fail at some point with a 20 rounder. It will fail to lock back for sure.
If had ^ 15,000 rounds through several carbines...the only issue I ever experienced was failure to lock the bolt on an empty mag while using 20 round PMags...other than that B A Utiful
Bolt not locking back on last round
Haven't you stated in the past that this is not necessary? Didn't you assemble your dedicated suppressed gun to, in fact, not lock back on the last round in an effort to make it run on the absolute least amount of gas possible?
Haven't you stated in the past that this is not necessary? Didn't you assemble your dedicated suppressed gun to, in fact, not lock back on the last round in an effort to make it run on the absolute least amount of gas possible?
Necessary or over rated? Many combat guns do not lock back on the last round so I don't think it is the end of the world. IF your gun does have this capability, then it is a nice feature to have.
My AR does lock back on the last round (FYI).
C4
I see what your saying but in reality the thought process of understanding what just happened is going to create time differences, no matter what remedial method is used. I am sure I will be faster when I understand what is about to happen. But I will show the same consistency between the BAD lever and without the BAD lever when I don't know what is about to happen. The difference in time is the process the mind makes as to what is the issue and what is the correct course of action. Once the user determines if a reload or a clearance is needed then that time frame of performing the reload or clearance is going to show the same consistencies in time differences with a BAD lever or without. So in essence everything being equal and running dummy rounds etc, the difference in times is the diagnostic in the mind not the actual performance of fixing the problem. So if it takes me .5 seconds to understand the issue, I will still consistently fix the problem faster with the BAD lever but I am just adding another .5 seconds for the diagnostic that my mind goes through. I have done this myself and even when I don't know what is about to happen or when it is going to happen, my times are consistently faster when using the BAD lever. Sure my times might be longer than what is shown in the video or when I know what is about to happen, but I am still consistently and significantly faster with the BAD lever. These are only my results and I will readily admit that varying skill levels or shooters may have different results.
In reality for my purposes, when the rifle does not go bang, I will more than likely be doing a transition to the pistol the majority of the time.
I agree Surf. Also, I wasn't trying come of like a pompous ass in my post... sorry if it came across that way.
Tomahawk_Ghost
06-14-12, 10:17
I was in a class one time where two guys had them on their guns. At the first break they ran up to the truck and took them off. Just doing target shooting they were fine. Working around barricades, odd positions and shooting on the move they kept locking their bolt back.
Magpul makes some great products. I don't think this is one of them.
Working around barricades, odd positions and shooting on the move they kept locking their bolt back.
Magpul makes some great products. I don't think this is one of them.
Sounds like possibly a training issue? Of the 4,000+ rounds I've put through my rifle with the BAD lever, almost 98% of those rounds were shot while working around barricades, odd positions, and shooting on the move, and I've never once had the the bolt back...
But I agree with their decision to take the BAD off. If it's not working and gonna cause issues, ditch it. I'm just glad it works for me because, like Surf, I've seen definite time advantages from the BAD lever while doing reloads and malfunctions etc.
And nice videos Surf. You are damn fast with your gun!
I agree Surf. Also, I wasn't trying come of like a pompous ass in my post... sorry if it came across that way.No you didn't, not at all. I don't get easily upset on the www. as I realize that often times much is lost in translation with only being able to read words on a screen. So hopefully I also did not come across poorly. If I did, I also meant no offense. ;)
...And nice videos Surf. You are damn fast with your gun!Thanks the positive comments, especially when someone learns something and it really helps to improve their shooting, is what keeps the channel going. Sometimes I consider giving up the video thing and removing the channel as it is time consuming. Besides the time it takes to shoot and produce video, the amount questions / inquiries the channel generates is often more work than it is worth as I try to respond to everything. In reality my channel is small and it keeps my email and message box very busy as it is.
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