View Full Version : Daniel defense v7 lw - how hot does the hand guard get?
I'm looking to get a DD v7 lw and am slightly concerned about how hot the barrel/hand guard get. I'm a casual shooter. Going to be taking 3 several day AR courses this year where I'll be firing 1000-2000 rounds over the weekend. Anyone have experience with how hot they get? Hot enough that you don't want to hold the fore grip bare handed or it's really not that bad?
Thanks
If you shoot past the army's rate of recommended RPM of 12-15 rpm...it will get warm...really really really warm. I can't recommend a good set of gloves, or rail covers, or both enough.
I have seen guys burn/melt gloves when shooting full auto for extended periods. So yes it will get el scorcho, even so to the point it will burn.
If shot a reasonable amount of RPM you can handle it...just use your best judgement on shooting. And it really doesn't matter if it's a LW or bull barrel. They are going to both get wicked hot. The benefit to LW profile is the will shed heat quicker, as well as build heat faster.
I recommend a good set of Tac gloves for a carbine course, or heavy range use anyhow...and good rail covers go a long way for thermal protection
Thanks for the comment. I have an m&p 15 now with a DD Omega rail and in my casual shooting it hasn't been a problem although I certainly haven't pushed it. The barrel certainly gets hot though. That DD lw hand guard is some form of metal right? Seems like it would make it even hotter to hold since its more solid than the more open Omega rail.
It gets hot. I am not a big time shooter, but between the use and the sun, i had to put on a glove.
I don't think it get's too hot, but maybe I'm not shooting it fast enough. I never wear gloves shooting it, but everyone's lifestyle dictates how tough their hands are. Mine are pretty tough and heat resistant.
Our last range session was easily over the 12 to 15 rpm level and it never once got too hot for me to handle. I ran Redback One's carbine standards without a break in shooting and never once did it get too hot. Even after the 10 shoots to the body, reload, 10 shots to the body.
I don't think it get's too hot, but maybe I'm not shooting it fast enough. I never wear gloves shooting it, but everyone's lifestyle dictates how tough their hands are. Mine are pretty tough and heat resistant.
Our last range session was easily over the 12 to 15 rpm level and it never once got too hot for me to handle. I ran Redback One's carbine standards without a break in shooting and never once did it get too hot. Even after the 10 shoots to the body, reload, 10 shots to the body.
Thanks. That was sort of the answer I was hoping someone would post. I haven't really pushed my m&p that hard so I don't know how hot that one would get in a similar situation. Just trying to assuage my perceived fears. ;-)
If you shoot past the army's rate of recommended RPM of 12-15 rpm...it will get warm...really really really warm. I can't recommend a good set of gloves, or rail covers, or both enough.
I have seen guys burn/melt gloves when shooting full auto for extended periods. So yes it will get el scorcho, even so to the point it will burn.
If shot a reasonable amount of RPM you can handle it...just use your best judgement on shooting. And it really doesn't matter if it's a LW or bull barrel. They are going to both get wicked hot. The benefit to LW profile is the will shed heat quicker, as well as build heat faster.
I recommend a good set of Tac gloves for a carbine course, or heavy range use anyhow...and good rail covers go a long way for thermal protection
Isn't true that some instructors don't want people to wear gloves while in class? Something about trigger control, tactile feel etc....
Just asking.
Just depends on the instructor. And ultimately what your line of work and point of use would be. If you are Mil where you'll likely be wearing gloves most all the time in combat...then you should train how you fight...and vice versa.
If your a civi or LEO where you aren't likely to get into extended periods of fire...I personally wouldn't want to train with gloves...that is unless you are going to be pushing the rifle hard, have sissy hands, or just can't handle the heat.
And to the question above most all rails are Machined aluminum of the T6-7076 flavor if I'm not mistaken
Guns-up.50
06-14-12, 21:39
you should be good with a LW barrel for most uses, no bayonets;) I was on the fence at one time about a LW vs govt. LW will heat up faster but also cool faster your should be fine i dont wear gloves unless working with suppressors or MGs, good luck in your classes
Guns-up.50
06-14-12, 21:49
Just depends on the instructor. And ultimately what your line of work and point of use would be. If you are Mil where you'll likely be wearing gloves most all the time in combat....
we never wore gloves until it was mandatory, and that was for fire bombs not hot guns
Isn't true that some instructors don't want people to wear gloves while in class? Something about trigger control, tactile feel etc....
Just asking.
If you are just wearing one on your support hand I wouldn't think it would matter.
I haven't encountered an instructor that did not want the students wearing gloves. I've taken carbine classes from Randy Cain, Louis Awerbuck, Bill Jeans, Pat Rogers, Pat McNamara, Kyle Defoor, and Kyle Lamb. None made a comment about gloves either way.
I personally went from poopooing gloves, to taking to them (thanks to a year spent with the AK and getting cut up) and now I'm at the point that I want to wear them for extended training periods, but I don't want a gun that requires me to wear them.
As to the handguard heat issue, any of these Brazilian (slick) handguards are going to get hotter. They are closer to the barrel and have less surface area than a 4-rail handguard. The 4-rail handguard systems also lend themselves to covers more readily. I have shot a Troy VTAC handguard to the point of being untouchable with a bare hand by just standing around shooting a steel array for a couple of minutes. Troy has released their squid panels (http://troyind.com/%20/anew-products/troy-squid-grip-6-pack) that fit in their holes, but those only work with their product.
I also find the weight savings to often be a false economy, depending on what you're attaching. Having products from companies like Mount-N-Slot helps, but as soon as you bolt up even some of the shortest rail sections you wind up pushing the weight of your Brazilian handguard right back up to that of the 4-rail system because of the redundancy of material in the bolt-on piece.
If I were buying a new DD I'd buy the version with the LW barrel and their new 4-rail handguard. I'd cover the handguard with Larue Index Clips in the locations where I was going to be normally putting my hand, and ladder covers anywhere else. IME the best recipe for sheilding your hand from heat is a 4-rail handguard and Larue ICs. The gaps between the individual ICs helps keep the natural heat-sink cooling of the 4-rail system in effect vs. solid covers that trap the heat. They are also the lowest profile cover that I'm aware of, after ladders.
I always wear gloves though I choose to stick to inexpensive work gloves like those by Mechanix instead of the thicker types used by Mil/LE. They protect my hands from heat and sharp edges while also suring up my grip.
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
As to the handguard heat issue, any of these Brazilian (slick) handguards are going to get hotter. They are closer to the barrel and have less surface area than a 4-rail handguard. The 4-rail handguard systems also lend themselves to covers more readily. I have shot a Troy VTAC handguard to the point of being untouchable with a bare hand by just standing around shooting a steel array for a couple of minutes. Troy has released their squid panels (http://troyind.com/%20/anew-products/troy-squid-grip-6-pack) that fit in their holes, but those only work with their product.
I also find the weight savings to often be a false economy, depending on what you're attaching. Having products from companies like Mount-N-Slot helps, but as soon as you bolt up even some of the shortest rail sections you wind up pushing the weight of your Brazilian handguard right back up to that of the 4-rail system because of the redundancy of material in the bolt-on piece.
If I were buying a new DD I'd buy the version with the LW barrel and their new 4-rail handguard. I'd cover the handguard with Larue Index Clips in the locations where I was going to be normally putting my hand, and ladder covers anywhere else. IME the best recipe for sheilding your hand from heat is a 4-rail handguard and Larue ICs. The gaps between the individual ICs helps keep the natural heat-sink cooling of the 4-rail system in effect vs. solid covers that trap the heat. They are also the lowest profile cover that I'm aware of, after ladders.
Thanks for the thorough reply. Is the rifle you're talking about something like the DD V5 LW?
I'd think one of the reasons the brazilian HG's get hotter is because of their large flat metal surface that your hands are coming in contact with compared to the 4 rail design which has less contact area with your skin.
What do you think of the IC's vs the rubber ladder type covers from Magpul that only cover the slots and otherwise leave the metal exposed to still act as a heat sink? I have those on my rifle now and am just wondering about how much advantage I'd get with the IC's.
These are what I'm talking about.
http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://westernsportonline.com/images/Magpul%20Ladder%20Rail%20Covers%20All%20Colors.jpg&sa=X&ei=yTbbT5SsCfSA2AWd6JXSCA&ved=0CAwQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNGwmOrS8fdPJkNiQytSsUzrba5sXA
I find the ICs to be the perfect balance between heat barrier, breathability, and not adding too much bulk. I use the ladders like you pictured on portions of the rail where my hand doesn't normally fall, that way the rail is protected, my body is partly shielded from the heat and sharp edges, and if I do have to put my hand there I get some amount of insulation.
The DD I'd buy today if I was shopping... hell the AR from any maker I'd buy right now if I was buying, would be this one.
https://danieldefense.com/rifles/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v5-lw.html
bsmith_shoot
06-15-12, 08:55
This advice makes more sence than anything ive heard today. Follow this guys advice, OP, you will not regret it.
I find the ICs to be the perfect balance between heat barrier, breathability, and not adding too much bulk. I use the ladders like you pictured on portions of the rail where my hand doesn't normally fall, that way the rail is protected, my body is partly shielded from the heat and sharp edges, and if I do have to put my hand there I get some amount of insulation.
The DD I'd buy today if I was shopping... hell the AR from any maker I'd buy right now if I was buying, would be this one.
https://danieldefense.com/rifles/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v5-lw.html
How mine is setup. Yeah, I can pop that short ladder off in front of the front sight on top and add an X300 if I want to, but on this gun I rarely need to. The front sight is set back more because of where my hand falls and where my thumb sits.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/2e2c6b21.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/af8c5b53.jpg
If it looks dumb but works, it's not dumb.
Alright, thanks for the advice everyone. DD V5 LW ordered. :p
I've got a v5 and a v7,I like both, but I think you made the right decision. You'll be happy with it
KrampusArms
06-16-12, 00:44
How do standard plastic handguards fair under heavy firing?
bluecanary
06-16-12, 17:06
How do standard plastic handguards fair under heavy firing?
The MOE H.G.'s are GREAT. Add rails to right and left and bottom. Light weight plastic. Top and bottom heat shields. Very comfortable triangular shape.
I just took a one day carbine class. No problems at all. Bare hands. Will buy again.
$40
The MOE H.G.'s are GREAT. Add rails to right and left and bottom. Light weight plastic. Top and bottom heat shields. Very comfortable triangular shape.
I just took a one day carbine class. No problems at all. Bare hands. Will buy again.
$40
Only downside is that they wobble so you can't put a BUIS or and thing like that on them.
Only downside is that they wobble so you can't put a BUIS or and thing like that on them.
They're not designed for that. They're really meant for use with the standard FSB.
They're not designed for that. They're really meant for use with the standard FSB.
True. I just wanted to throw that out there as I didn't realize they were that wobbly before I bought one way back. Thought it may help someone else out.
bluecanary
06-17-12, 09:39
True. I just wanted to throw that out there as I didn't realize they were that wobbly before I bought one way back. Thought it may help someone else out.
That is true. My gun has a railed front gas block with MI (now Diamond Head) folding front.
Best of all worlds.
:cool:
Isn't true that some instructors don't want people to wear gloves while in class? Something about trigger control, tactile feel etc....
Just asking.
I never go to the party without wearing my dancing shoes.
I have no clue about instructors wanting/not wanting folks to wear gloves. However, if something goes bump in the night and I need my firearm the last thing I need to do is put on a pair of gloves. I try to train as I fight, and that means no gloves in most cases. If I were something other than a civilian then my choice may be different.
I have no clue about instructors wanting/not wanting folks to wear gloves. However, if something goes bump in the night and I need my firearm the last thing I need to do is put on a pair of gloves. I try to train as I fight, and that means no gloves in most cases. If I were something other than a civilian then my choice may be different.
If something goes bump in the night, I'm not worrying about hot hand guards. I seriously don't think that I'd do enough shooting to the point where the handguards got too hot to touch... I mean.. maybe if I lived in the Arghandab River Valley, or anywhere in Kunar, really..
If something goes bump in the night, I'm not worrying about hot hand guards. I seriously don't think that I'd do enough shooting to the point where the handguards got too hot to touch... I mean.. maybe if I lived in the Arghandab River Valley, or anywhere in Kunar, really..
From guns to gear to clothes to shoes, every non-LE civilian has to balance training against reality. Rather than "train like you fight" it's "train for a fight". Every person has to make the decision for themselves if something like training in gloves when they'd never wear them "in a fight" is a bad thing or not. There is no right answer.
And until you run one of the Brazillian handguards with no covers and without gloves to the point of being uncomfortable or even un-touchable, you have no idea what you would or wouldn't do. Are there more important things to worry about in a civilian gunfight involving an AR? well, duh. But at the same time what benefits are the Brazilian handguards supposedly providing in that application either? Saving weight? In a 30 second gunfight in the hallway of your ranch-type-style castle?
There ain't no free lunch.
Failure2Stop
06-19-12, 09:07
I'm really late to the thread, but I have definitely found that the diet hand guards get really hot under prolonged firing sessions. I had a Troy/Vtac that I swapped around, and I would frequently get it hot enough to be distracting, and if I wasn't paying attention I would occasionally get it hot enough to be painful.
I moved it to my 3-gun rifle, where it's length, weight, and size were an advantage. I trained with that gun differently than I do with my "serious" guns (pretty much just precise pairs, mid range precision, barricades, and long range), as it was purpose built to do those tasks well in competition.
I think that there are advantages to the thin, light hand guards, but insulation is not one of them. I recently had a guy in class with a DD V7, that needed to wear a glove to be able to continue training. I verified that the hand guard was definitely too hot to be conducive to learning.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
From guns to gear to clothes to shoes, every non-LE civilian has to balance training against reality. Rather than "train like you fight" it's "train for a fight". Every person has to make the decision for themselves if something like training in gloves when they'd never wear them "in a fight" is a bad thing or not. There is no right answer.
And until you run one of the Brazillian handguards with no covers and without gloves to the point of being uncomfortable or even un-touchable, you have no idea what you would or wouldn't do. Are there more important things to worry about in a civilian gunfight involving an AR? well, duh. But at the same time what benefits are the Brazilian handguards supposedly providing in that application either? Saving weight? In a 30 second gunfight in the hallway of your ranch-type-style castle?
There ain't no free lunch.
I mostly agree with your post, Rob. In training, my handguards have gotten hot enough to make gloves a much needed item.
That probably won't happen in my house. Mostly this is because where I live hasn't required any Alamo-like preparations (hasn't required it, didn't say I hadn't made them anyways:D).
The one part I disagree with, though, is that there IS a right answer. But MY right answer is probably not YOUR right answer which might be different than the OP's right answer.
Train to a higher standard and you will get a better result when you are called upon to perform. It seems as plain as that to me.
The one part I disagree with, though, is that there IS a right answer. But MY right answer is probably not YOUR right answer which might be different than the OP's right answer.
That is semantics for no other reason than semantics' sake.
That is semantics for no other reason than semantics' sake.
I apologize for offending your sensibilities, Rob.
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