View Full Version : Pre WWII Chinese debt to the US
Dirk Williams
06-16-12, 10:53
Did anybody catch the piece on China possibly owing a Trillion dollars to the USA for WW-II loans and bonds purchased during WW-II, on the news last night.
DW
http://savannahnow.com/opinion/2012-05-21/analysis-chinas-secret-it-owes-americans-nearly-1-trillion#.T9ywnL_3pJ9
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002726025
http://www.conservativeactionalerts.com/2012/01/china-owes-us-one-trillion/
http://www.wnd.com/2012/01/find-out-who-owes-u-s-billions/
Oh good! Now we are even
:dance3:
Dirk Williams
06-16-12, 11:36
Thank you Dano, I JUST read one of those articles.
Why would it be wrong to call our debt to China even.
I understand the politic's of it, this is simply a business matter and China should repay it's debt if they owe.
For that matter so should South American country's and Iran and everybody else who excepted the money offered by the US.
For what it's worth I intend to email my elected officials and insist that they look into this matter and if it's accurate, demand that action be taken.
I know it's like pissing in the wind, however if we the people don't stand up and give direction to the people we elect then this shit sandwhich we call our Govt will continue to cow tow to special interests, regardless of what is in our nations best interest.
If enough people hold our leaders feet to the fire maybe, just maybe this is an oppertunity to solve some debt related issues.
I know this sound's so nieve, but it needs to be said
DW
I'm pretty sure China will point out that their current government began in 1949 and that they don't recognize any debts of the previous government.
Mauser KAR98K
06-16-12, 14:02
I'm pretty sure China will point out that their current government began in 1949 and that they don't recognize any debts of the previous government.
Something the Communist did in Russia after they took over. Hmm...
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-16-12, 17:29
I'm pretty sure China will point out that their current government began in 1949 and that they don't recognize any debts of the previous government.
IIRC, a lot of govt didn't want to write off the Iraq debts that Saddam ran up. That's like being raped and having to give the guy cab fare too.
Dirk Williams
06-16-12, 19:56
Read several articles on the subject now. Of course they don't want to pay the debt.
Of course they reaped all of the benifits of the moneys loaned and pumped into their country's infastructure.
If what I read is accurate, it is not unusual or out of line to expect payment from another GOVT after pre war loans. Keep in mind these loans were pre WW-II and China was not communist then.
I can remember being in the NAVY and in Hong Kong in the mid 70's shopping for stuff in the alleyways and back streets, and purchasing Nationalist Chinese moneys from that era 30/40's.
Interestingly enough that Chinese money was minted in the USA and looked similar to the currency used in the US at that time.
They borrowed the money in good faith, why is it that we should not expect payment on money's loaned as a nation and as individual investors.
I have read "The Creature From Jeckyl Island" and I don't remember if this was PRE FED. Or Fiat money expendatures. The articles point out that at the time America's post war debt was 110% of GDP.
My argument regarding the fiat money idea is simply this: Due to China's closed govt, we will never really know or understand if they are loaning WE USA their version of Fiat money or not.
I think a newer book named " The Coming Collapse Of China, authored by Gordon G Chang, illistrates this notion regarding China being propped up by artificial stability to their money and slide of hand non standard money practices.
Basically China will fail because of it's commitments to the WFO on structural reform, and not be able to achieve those commitments to the WFO.
If this should happen sooner, rather then later, are we as a nation still on the hook for moneys borrowed in good faith but we just don't feel like paying it back to a govt who really didn't make the loans OR are not in the US's best interest.
Dirk
Dirk;
Pretty sure this was post-Fed..I could be wrong, But I believe that the FED was started before WWI..
That's like being raped and having to give the guy cab fare too.
... or kicking the shit out of an opponents army, winning the war, and then being expected to re-emply all the soldiers who are now out of a job because they lost.
You know, like Iraq...
Didn't Britain just finish paying us off for WWII not too super long ago?
No reason China shouldn't, regardless of what form of gov't is currently in control.
You don't get a waiver on your mortgage simply because you changed religions.
Didn't Britain just finish paying us off for WWII not too super long ago?
That was Germany. Winners don't pay. Or at least they didn't used to.
No, longer back.
Like in the 70's or early 80's
EDIT:
Nope, not that far back even.
Dec 31, 2006 was thier final payment.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4757181.stm
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-16-12, 23:15
... or kicking the shit out of an opponents army, winning the war, and then being expected to re-emply all the soldiers who are now out of a job because they lost.
You know, like Iraq...
Didn't Britain just finish paying us off for WWII not too super long ago?
No reason China shouldn't, regardless of what form of gov't is currently in control.
You don't get a waiver on your mortgage simply because you changed religions.
That was Germany. Winners don't pay. Or at least they didn't used to.
I thought some of the Lend-Lease agreements for bases just ended or something, like the early 2000s or something.
I'm pretty sure China will point out that their current government began in 1949 and that they don't recognize any debts of the previous government.
Precedent goes against that. As was outlined in the article, historically, new governments paid the old governments debts. Just like the new government inherited the old state's assets, it also inherited the old states debts.
The Soviets, for example, paid on Czarist debt and many other examples.
There are/were govt agencies set up to pursue these debts for citizens as well.
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That was Germany. Winners don't pay. Or at least they didn't used to.
Actually, as the links show, it was the UK paying us back. It seems however that it was loans for rebuilding after the war according to one of the links given, not actual money from during the way.
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Actually, as the links show, it was the UK paying us back. It seems however that it was loans for rebuilding after the war according to one of the links given, not actual money from during the way.
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I was thinking of this one.
Germany ends World War One reparations after 92 years with £59m final payment (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315869/Germany-end-World-War-One-reparations-92-years-59m-final-payment.html)
Guess they must still be paying on the second one.
As far as China, regardless of right or wrong or what has been done in the past, good luck collecting. I'd live to see those debts deducted from what we now owe them, I just think Obama would be nominated for Grand Dragon before that would happen.
I was thinking of this one.
Germany ends World War One reparations after 92 years with £59m final payment (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315869/Germany-end-World-War-One-reparations-92-years-59m-final-payment.html)
Guess they must still be paying on the second one.
As far as China, regardless of right or wrong or what has been done in the past, good luck collecting. I'd live to see those debts deducted from what we now owe them, I just think Obama would be nominated for Grand Dragon before that would happen.
Who made the Color Guard Colored! :lol:
Dirk Williams
06-17-12, 11:47
Sorry, but if I borrow money from you, I think you would expect to be payed back.
If I purchased your M-4 on credit, and you held the paper Im sure you would want to be reembursed, or at least your rifle back
It's just how it has to work.
I see the problem as politic's. For 100 years we ruled via Detante?. Spread a little money to influence other state affairs. That doesn't work anymore.
The 3rd world has woke up and are now saying to the US, No, USA your position is not in our nations best interest.
I simply believe that if our govt loans money then that money belongs to we the people. After all if our Govt squanders the money we the people are going to get stuck paying it back.
My point is if they owe us they should pay us. If we owe them then we should pay them. If they owe us and refuse to pay, and we discover that there are money's owed, ****em, zero the books with that nation. What are they going to do call the UN.
This buying the good will of other nations dosen't work, for god's sakes look at the conflicts we are currently in, is our money making things better for anybody involved. **** NO!
We as a nation have done more good around the planet then any 20 other country's. Look where we are, look what has happened. These country's are standing around with their dicks in one hand and there other hands out asking for money, yet they are doing NOTHING to ease their own pain.
It's time to roll up the borders, kick the ****ing illegals out and let the rest of the world deal with their own issues. O yea if they owe us, take their ****ing wallets as they cross back into mexico or where ever the **** these butt plugs come from.
Happy Fathers Day to you all.
DW
These loans were to the pre-war national government, not to the present communist government. Just as it is about impossible to collect a debt after a bankruptcy, we'll never get them to assume a debt that existed before they came to power.
These loans were to the pre-war national government, not to the present communist government. Just as it is about impossible to collect a debt after a bankruptcy, we'll never get them to assume a debt that existed before they came to power.
This. Collecting on the subject debt is about the same as trying to collect debt from Czechoslovakia.
These loans were to the pre-war national government, not to the present communist government. Just as it is about impossible to collect a debt after a bankruptcy, we'll never get them to assume a debt that existed before they came to power.
There is lots of precedent for the new governments to pay the old governments debts.
It has happened and does happen.
The Soviets paid Czarist debt.
Germany paid WW1 reparations according to the links posted, even though they were 2 governments removed, at least.
There are probably lots of other examples.
I say go after them.
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This. Collecting on the subject debt is about the same as trying to collect debt from Czechoslovakia.
Someone is working on that too:
http://www.ceskenoviny.cz/news/zpravy/fagan-wants-ten-billion-crowns-from-czech-town-for-old-bonds/702979
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There is lots of precedent for the new governments to pay the old governments debts.
It has happened and does happen.
The Soviets paid Czarist debt.
Germany paid WW1 reparations according to the links posted, even though they were 2 governments removed, at least.
There are probably lots of other examples.
I say go after them.
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The Germans had a reason to repay and were properly motivated to do so. Reparations were damn near immediately begun, once settled upon.
Calling for repayment 70 plus years after the fact is a non-starter, and the Chinese would have a compelling legal argument for abandonment of the debt on our part.
I'm pretty sure China will point out that their current government began in 1949 and that they don't recognize any debts of the previous government.
100% agree that this will/has been their claim, and most importantly nobody in this side of the world has the balls to call their bluff. Especially not now given how much money the rest of the world owes them and how much more they wish to borrow.
Guess based in their assumed logic, come January 20, 2013 if Romney is elected he can claim that his government didn't exist before 2013, hence no foreign debt exists. Pretty sure that is not a precedent the worlds financial community wants officially standing.
Sorry, but if I borrow money from you, I think you would expect to be payed back.
If I purchased your M-4 on credit, and you held the paper Im sure you would want to be reembursed, or at least your rifle back
It's just how it has to work.
I don't think anyone disagrees with your POV. I just don't think China is going to see it that way. I'd love to be wrong.
100% agree that this will/has been their claim, and most importantly nobody in this side of the world has the balls to call their bluff. Especially not now given how much money the rest of the world owes them and how much more they wish to borrow.
Guess based in their assumed logic, come January 20, 2013 if Romney is elected he can claim that his government didn't exist before 2013, hence no foreign debt exists. Pretty sure that is not a precedent the worlds financial community wants officially standing.
False logic. In our scheme of government, changing the leader is not a change of government. When the nationalists fell and the communists took over the whole country changed; name, alliances, treaties, leaders, form of government, etc. Nationalist China on the mainland ceased to exist on that day. If anything, there is a very strong argument that now this debt belongs to our ally, Taiwan, and not to the PRC. Still want to collect?
The Germans had a reason to repay and were properly motivated to do so. Reparations were damn near immediately begun, once settled upon.
Calling for repayment 70 plus years after the fact is a non-starter, and the Chinese would have a compelling legal argument for abandonment of the debt on our part.
There is plenty of precedent for them TO pay. Making the political hay to address the issue is the problem.
Old bonds are collected on (often at pennies on the dollar) on a regular basis.
Why would Germany pay WW1 reparations? What would be their motivation?
You have yet to comment on other historical precedent I mentioned, even though I mentioned it multiple times, e.g., Soviets paying Czarist debt.
That was exactly the same sort of situation -- totally new communist government.
Read the links that Dano posted. They provide interesting insight into this including "legal" issues, historical precedent, and other reasons why they (countries) pay on old debt from prior regimes, and efforts that are undertaken to collect.
And countries take this seriously. The link I posted about old Czech debt, for example, shows that even today the claims are taken seriously (not that they come out and pay up right away, but the claims are taken seriously and negotiations take place to satisfy the claims).
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German paid so that they could get out from under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, in order to be able to rearm and rebuild their military in the run-up to WWII. The Russian communists paid Czarist debts in order to retain trading relationships with their European neighbors, a key to their survival. The PRC has had no such motivations. Again, it could be better argued that these are Nationalist Chinese debts, and not transferable to the PRC.
German paid so that they could get out from under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, in order to be able to rearm and rebuild their military in the run-up to WWII.
NO!!!!!!
Read a little history.
Germany STOPPED PAYING reparations under the Nazis. That was one of the "problems." They basically unilaterally abrogated the Treaty of Versailles. They did not get out from under it by paying the reparations.
Germany finished paying WW1 reparations in 2010 !!!!!!!
The Russian communists paid Czarist debts in order to retain trading relationships with their European neighbors, a key to their survival. The PRC has had no such motivations. Again, it could be better argued that these are Nationalist Chinese debts, and not transferable to the PRC.
Go read the links Dano posted. It might disabuse you of some of these notions you have.
Historically, and through precedent, the debts belong to the country and when a new regime comes in, they assume both the assets and the debts. Getting them to pay may be another question, but it happens often enough.
And brush up on your history.
NO!!!!!!
Read a little history.
Germany STOPPED PAYING reparations under the Nazis. That was one of the "problems." They basically unilaterally abrogated the Treaty of Versailles. They did not get out from under it by paying the reparations.
Germany finished paying WW1 reparations in 2010 !!!!!!!
Go read the links Dano posted. It might disabuse you of some of these notions you have.
Historically, and through precedent, the debts belong to the country and when a new regime comes in, they assume both the assets and the debts. Getting them to pay may be another question, but it happens often enough.
And brush up on your history.
You can teach me history after you teach us how to run a successful business.
You can teach me history after you teach us how to run a successful business.
You made historical claims that were patently false regarding Germany and reparations.
Your ability to run a business, or mine for that matter, is irrelevant.
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Wow, this is a strange thread.
You can teach me history after you teach us how to run a successful business.
That was low and irrelevant.
I think at this point the best option available to you would be to back out of this thread.
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