Question for Noveske guys

[Dwikkles]

Hey guys, I have a 2 part question for you guys with some experience with Noveske rifles. Hopefully your answers will help me decide on my next rifle.

1. What are the real world performance differences between the 5.56, 6.8, and 300BLK out of a 14.5" Noveske? My performance concerns being medium to long range accuracy, as well as terminal ballistics(damage to flesh target).

2. What are the performance differences between the Stainless "Afghan" barrel and the "Light Carbine" barrel? The "Light" one I am looking at says this..."M249 Machine Gun barrel steel and Chrome Lining (appx. 2 times as thick as an M4 or M16)"

Any help or input is much appreciated thank you.

P.S. Does anyone have any idea if Noveske has any intention of ever utilizing a gas piston system?

[Pax]

Before someone less diplomatic tells you to in, naturally, less diplomatic terms, use this site's search feature. If you do not find the answers to your questions utilizing that tool, give Google a try. There is a wealth of information out there, but not too many old codgers still willing to just type out some basic pointers for shooters new to the type.

In short, without explanation:

1. Buy a 5.56 rifle. Especially if this is your first AR.

2. Its understandable that google may not help you here. Noveske does not do a good job of explaining the actual difference between the options up to your decision in this case. Their Stainless barrels are stainless, the "Light Carbine" option indicates CMV barrel steel. Here is a basic primer on barrels including the difference between these two found using 5 seconds and Google. Really, google is your friend. http://neverenuffammo.com/?p=355 Personally, I stay with CMV. But there isnt really a wrong answer for the majority of the shooting you will probably do.

3. There is very little to no love for any piston and Op Rod system in an AR on most forums, and for good reason. Because it is late and I am lazy, I will simply tell you to google "piston AR" extensively, see what you come up with and then stay away from them forevermore of your own accord.

Good luck, welcome to the board, etc. Cant go wrong with Noveske. So. Thats the good news. Youre on the right path there.

[vicious_cb]

Hey guys, I have a 2 part question for you guys with some experience with Noveske rifles. Hopefully your answers will help me decide on my next rifle.

1. What are the real world performance differences between the 5.56, 6.8, and 300BLK out of a 14.5" Noveske? My performance concerns being medium to long range accuracy, as well as terminal ballistics(damage to flesh target).

2. What are the performance differences between the Stainless "Afghan" barrel and the "Light Carbine" barrel? The "Light" one I am looking at says this..."M249 Machine Gun barrel steel and Chrome Lining (appx. 2 times as thick as an M4 or M16)"

Any help or input is much appreciated thank you.

P.S. Does anyone have any idea if Noveske has any intention of ever utilizing a gas piston system?

1. Look in the Terminal Ballistics forum

2. Search "stainless vs chome lined"

Hell no, John Noveske would never put a gas piston system on his rifles.

You sound very new to ARs. I suggest you read the stickies and use the search function.

[Mitch1352]

The stainless barrels have Noveske's thought on a match chamber and rifling. The chrome moly barrel has conventional rifling and twice the thickness of M240 chrome lining. The steel barrel is a hard use barrel, whereas the stainless is more of a precision barrel. If you go to Noveske's websight, he gives a quite satisfactory explanation of the two types. I have a 10.5 inch CQB and a 10.5 inch Light Shorty and they are the best shooting M4 type rifles that I have ever handled. The accuracy of the stainless CQB is kinda scary, given the idea that short barrels are less accurate. I disagree. Regardless of what you choose, you will love whatever Noveske you decide on.
I should end now, I suppose, the unsolicited Noveske commercial. I have several Colts, 2 RR's and a Bushy (I know, big deal), and the Noveskes are the best ones of the bunch.

[rob_s]

I bet that Noveske gets asked #2 often enough to have a canned answer if you call or email them.

As to #1 The 6.8 will fly about as flat as the 5.56 but have more energy imparted to the target. In a 1:1 comparison of ammunition of similar or identical quality the 5.56 and 6.8 will cost approximately the same, but the 5.56 has a variety of less expensive training/blasting/competing/plinking loads available that keep the overall cost down. The 6.8 will also require different magazines than 5.56, but can't be chambered, even with bullet setback, in a 5.56 chamber.

300 BLK will fall further in a shorter horizontal distance than either of the other two. It will impart more energy to the target than either of the other two. It will fit in the same magazines, for the most part, as the 5.56, but it can also be forced into a 5.56 chamber to pretty nasty effect on the rifle and potentially the shooter.

If you do not own any other ARs, start with the 5.56 as it is a better all-around/general-purpose caliber.

[Eurodriver]

What is your definition of "medium to long range accuracy"? and what are your standards of accuracy at those distances?

[Ironman8]

What is your definition of "medium to long range accuracy"? and what are your standards of accuracy at those distances?

THIS.

We will need this answered before any real solution can be given...but I will say that if this is your first AR and/or you don't have experience already in LR shooting, then you should absolutely look no further than a 5.56. Stainless vs CL will depend on what your accuracy requirements are.

Read THIS THREAD (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38695) AND the link provided to the Defense Review with John Noveske in the 3rd post of that thread.

5.56 is really a Mid-Range gun, but it is a good way to learn the fundamentals (especially calling wind) as a stepping stone into the LR world with something like a .308

Also, as has been stated...searching the site using the orange search button, as well as google, will make your life MUCH easier here on M4C ;)

[Todd.K]

I bet that Noveske gets asked #2 often enough to have a canned answer if you call or email them.

Very true, there is a good short explanation on our website.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?cat=106

[SE_AK Hunter]

I bet that Noveske gets asked #2 often enough to have a canned answer if you call or email them.

As to #1 The 6.8 will fly about as flat as the 5.56 but have more energy imparted to the target. In a 1:1 comparison of ammunition of similar or identical quality the 5.56 and 6.8 will cost approximately the same, but the 5.56 has a variety of less expensive training/blasting/competing/plinking loads available that keep the overall cost down. The 6.8 will also require different magazines than 5.56, but can't be chambered, even with bullet setback, in a 5.56 chamber.

300 BLK will fall further in a shorter horizontal distance than either of the other two. It will impart more energy to the target than either of the other two. It will fit in the same magazines, for the most part, as the 5.56, but it can also be forced into a 5.56 chamber to pretty nasty effect on the rifle and potentially the shooter.

If you do not own any other ARs, start with the 5.56 as it is a better all-around/general-purpose caliber.

I agree with everything you said except what is highlighted in red. Could you please explain how you came to that conclusion?

Looking at manufacturers ballistics, the 300blk averages 13-1400 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. While the 6.8 averages 15-1600 FPE at the muzzle. While some loadings of the 300blk reach 1500 ft/lbs, certain loadings in the 6.8 are very close to 2000 ft/lbs...both from 16" barrels.

If my findings are incorrect could you please point me in the right direction to finding more accurate info?

[rob_s]

I'm not going to get dragged into yet another 300 WTF vs. 6.8 StupidPointlessCartridge argument. Take it for what you want, there are arguments both ways, and I'm tired of them.

[SE_AK Hunter]

I'm not going to get dragged into yet another 300 WTF vs. 6.8 StupidPointlessCartridge argument. Take it for what you want, there are arguments both ways, and I'm tired of them.


Sorry wasn't trying to start an argument. I was just curious about where you got your data to form your conclusion.

[JSantoro]

We have two subforums that are misleadingly entitled Terminal Ballistics and Reloading & Ammunition.

Hint-hint

[Dwikkles]

Cool I think all these answers sum it up. Thanks for the input guys.

Its my 3rd AR, and I hate Google. I dont buy in to forum politics. Forums are made for discussion. Even if its multiple times.

Thanks for the replies, that helps a ton. :D

[bravofour]

I own two Noveske rifle's and they are the most accurate AR's I have ever owned. I have a 16'' and 18'' both with stainless barrels(5.56mm). Shooting 77gr Nosler handloads I have NO problem reaching out to 600yds on 12"x12" steel plates. If accuracy is what your looking for then look no further. I would also suggest a 16'' barrel as opposed to a 14.5 so you can change muzzle devices easily if you wish. The extra velocity is also a bonus. I have spoken with John personally and I know he has no plans of building a piston driven AR, he even says it in the Noveske brochure. Noveske's customer service is spot on so if you have any questions just give them a call.

[Dwikkles]

Some very good points. Thats good to know.

I had no idea the piston rifles had been received so bad. I never gave much thought to them until recently with all the new ones popping up.

[rob_s]

Forums are made for discussion. Even if its multiple times.

Yes and no. Just understand that refusing to do a search, or doing a half-assed search of the forum, will mean that many will see you as a lazy "special flower".
:haha:

Statements like "and I hate Google" aren't going to help. You might as well say "I hate screwdrivers because I'd rather get someone else to tighten the screw for me".

[bzdog]

I agree with everything you said except what is highlighted in red. Could you please explain how you came to that conclusion?

Looking at manufacturers ballistics, the 300blk averages 13-1400 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. While the 6.8 averages 15-1600 FPE at the muzzle. While some loadings of the 300blk reach 1500 ft/lbs, certain loadings in the 6.8 are very close to 2000 ft/lbs...both from 16" barrels.

If my findings are incorrect could you please point me in the right direction to finding more accurate info?

FWIW, there are 300BLK loads in the 2200-2400fps range like the Barnes:

http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/300-AAC-Blackout-110gr-TAC-TX.pdf
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2012/06/07/gearscout-unleashes-the-barnes-300-blk-110-grain-tac-tx/

-john


EDIT: Oops. I see you were looking at energy, not speed.

[SE_AK Hunter]

Yes and no. Just understand that refusing to do a search, or doing a half-assed search of the forum, will mean that many will see you as a lazy "special flower".
:haha:

Statements like "and I hate Google" aren't going to help. You might as well say "I hate screwdrivers because I'd rather get someone else to tighten the screw for me".

And this is why I don't post much on this forum.

Because some guy with a huge post count can make a statement that is blatantly false. Which can be proven by "using the search function" and looking in the terminal ballistics forum.

Yet his word is taken as gospel and can't possibly be challenged!

So maybe if I make a chart...

6.8 factory loads @ 55k psi- 16" barrel

SSA 85gr TSX- 1614 ft/lbs
SSA 85gr RRLP- 1509 ft/lbs
SSA 110gr AB- 1594 ft/lbs
SSA 110gr TSX- 1592 ft/lbs
SSA 110 SPH- 1525 ft/lbs
SSA 115gr otm- 1590 ft/lbs

Hornady 110gr bthp- 1588 ft/lbs
Hornady 110gr vmax- 1588 ft/lbs
Hornady 120gr SST- 1612 ft/lbs

300 BLK factory ammo 16" barrel

Remington 115gr fmj- 1344 ft/lbs
Remington 125gr otm- 1360 ft/lbs
PNW Arms 147gr fmj- 1306 ft/lbs
PNW ARMS 125gr NBT- 1343 ft/lbs
Barnes vor-tx 110gr TTSX- 1349 ft/lbs
Corbon t-dpx 110gr ttsx- 1407 ft/lbs
Corbon hunter 125gr NBT- 1405 ft/lbs

Is that a big enough sample size? I could go on to list all available factory ammo for both, but the trend will not change so why bother?

Also notice I excluded all tactical loadings from SSA and the hot ammo from Wilson Combat. I kept the comparison at known SAAMI spec ammo. No bait and switch...just the raw numbers.


Instead of trying to belittle me with insults, you could have simply stated....I pulled that comment about "imparting more energy on target" out of my ass!

I will go crawl back under a rock now...and let the "guru's" explain why I am "stupid" "a fan boy" or what ever.:suicide:

[Ironman8]

Ehh, post count doesn't mean shit...other than who has the most time on their hands to jerk off on the internet.

You'll figure out pretty quick who will actually help people with good advice, who just wants to argue, and who the trolls are. Don't let it get to you.

[1859sharps]

... understand that refusing to do a search, or doing a half-assed search of the forum, will mean that many will see you as a lazy "special flower".

I agree to a point. just saying "use the orange search button" is even less helpful than no response at all.

The problem is forum search functions are notoriously crappy and that is why people eventually don't bother or give up pretty quick.

if you are going to tell someone to use search first, at least point them to google's advanced search.

https://www.google.com/advanced_search

once they have entered what they are looking for, have them under the "narrow results by sections, the site or domain field enter "m4carbine.net"

The rest is pretty self explanatory. this will make their search of m4carbine.net more meaningful and useful.

[Dwikkles]

Yes and no. Just understand that refusing to do a search, or doing a half-assed search of the forum, will mean that many will see you as a lazy "special flower".
:haha:

Statements like "and I hate Google" aren't going to help. You might as well say "I hate screwdrivers because I'd rather get someone else to tighten the screw for me".

Oh man don't even get me started on screwdrivers....I cant stand those bastids :no:

Seriously though SE_AK hunter thanks a lot for that breakdown man. Very thorough and insightful. Appreciate it.

[dtibbals]

Hey guys, I have a 2 part question for you guys with some experience with Noveske rifles. Hopefully your answers will help me decide on my next rifle.

1. What are the real world performance differences between the 5.56, 6.8, and 300BLK out of a 14.5" Noveske? My performance concerns being medium to long range accuracy, as well as terminal ballistics(damage to flesh target).

2. What are the performance differences between the Stainless "Afghan" barrel and the "Light Carbine" barrel? The "Light" one I am looking at says this..."M249 Machine Gun barrel steel and Chrome Lining (appx. 2 times as thick as an M4 or M16)"

Any help or input is much appreciated thank you.

P.S. Does anyone have any idea if Noveske has any intention of ever utilizing a gas piston system?

I have a few different flavors of Noveske rifles...My 3 gun/match rifle is an 18" rifle length stainless barrel, fluted and sporting a battle comp. My other rifles are 14.5" chrome lined version and just purchased a 10.5" today with chrome lined barrel.

With that said it is boringly easy to shoot a 8" paper plate at 600 yards with a 14.5" Noveske chromed barrel with a TA31 optic. I run a 1-4 on my 18" and can tell you after doing a lot of accuracy testing with combat type optics I will only buy the shorter chrome lined barrels.

If I had a more powerful optic on the 18" I could probably get more accuracy but I can say with all ammo choices 55, 62, 69, 75 and 77g bullets both rifles will shoot 1moa or better at times with 5 shot groups.

I have been more than amazed at how well the short chrome barrels shoot!!!

I doubt you will see Noveske do a Piston rifle. I have had piston rifles by LMT and they are fine but unless you are running an SBR you really don't see any advantage over DI. Sure the piston will be cleaner, I think anyone who argues that is nuts. However LMT told me directly that their DI rifles are more accurate than their piston rifles. I can verify they are correct. I had both DI and piston in the exact same rifle. Noveske's solution to the need of a piston in SBR's is the switch block. I now run them on all rifles other than the 18".

I have only seen one brand of AR that is head to head with Noveske on fit and finish and that is HK. I plan on buying an HK MR556 to see what they are all about but I have taken the Noveske to lots of training classes, matches etc and have yet to ever have an issue or failure with a Noveske...not even a single malfunction. They are simply amazing but you have to pay to play.

David

[SE_AK Hunter]

Oh man don't even get me started on screwdrivers....I cant stand those bastids :no:

Seriously though SE_AK hunter thanks a lot for that breakdown man. Very thorough and insightful. Appreciate it.

No problem. Glad you found it helpful.

And on the subject of Noveske. They make an excellent product and have fantastic customer service. I cannot say enough good things about them.

The Rogue Hunter I picked up 2 years ago has performed flawlessly and I can honestly say the rifle is more accurate than I am.

So when you decide on what caliber you want, buy with confidence. You will not be dissapointed.

[Dwikkles]

I have a few different flavors of Noveske rifles...My 3 gun/match rifle is an 18" rifle length stainless barrel, fluted and sporting a battle comp. My other rifles are 14.5" chrome lined version and just purchased a 10.5" today with chrome lined barrel.

With that said it is boringly easy to shoot a 8" paper plate at 600 yards with a 14.5" Noveske chromed barrel with a TA31 optic. I run a 1-4 on my 18" and can tell you after doing a lot of accuracy testing with combat type optics I will only buy the shorter chrome lined barrels.

If I had a more powerful optic on the 18" I could probably get more accuracy but I can say with all ammo choices 55, 62, 69, 75 and 77g bullets both rifles will shoot 1moa or better at times with 5 shot groups.

I have been more than amazed at how well the short chrome barrels shoot!!!

I doubt you will see Noveske do a Piston rifle. I have had piston rifles by LMT and they are fine but unless you are running an SBR you really don't see any advantage over DI. Sure the piston will be cleaner, I think anyone who argues that is nuts. However LMT told me directly that their DI rifles are more accurate than their piston rifles. I can verify they are correct. I had both DI and piston in the exact same rifle. Noveske's solution to the need of a piston in SBR's is the switch block. I now run them on all rifles other than the 18".

I have only seen one brand of AR that is head to head with Noveske on fit and finish and that is HK. I plan on buying an HK MR556 to see what they are all about but I have taken the Noveske to lots of training classes, matches etc and have yet to ever have an issue or failure with a Noveske...not even a single malfunction. They are simply amazing but you have to pay to play.

David

That sums up everything I was looking for in an answer man, thanks so much for your input and explanation. Really helps.


No problem. Glad you found it helpful.

And on the subject of Noveske. They make an excellent product and have fantastic customer service. I cannot say enough good things about them.

The Rogue Hunter I picked up 2 years ago has performed flawlessly and I can honestly say the rifle is more accurate than I am.

So when you decide on what caliber you want, buy with confidence. You will not be dissapointed.

Absolutely customer service is a HUGE factor in a good purchase too. Though you hope you won't need it, you can't put a price on piece of mind.

[dtibbals]

cool...glad I could help you out!

[MistWolf]

There are other search engines besides Google


And this is why I don't post much on this forum.

Because some guy with a huge post count can make a statement that is blatantly false. Which can be proven by "using the search function" and looking in the terminal ballistics forum.

Yet his word is taken as gospel and can't possibly be challenged!

So maybe if I make a chart...

6.8 factory loads @ 55k psi- 16" barrel

SSA 85gr TSX- 1614 ft/lbs
SSA 85gr RRLP- 1509 ft/lbs
SSA 110gr AB- 1594 ft/lbs
SSA 110gr TSX- 1592 ft/lbs
SSA 110 SPH- 1525 ft/lbs
SSA 115gr otm- 1590 ft/lbs

Hornady 110gr bthp- 1588 ft/lbs
Hornady 110gr vmax- 1588 ft/lbs
Hornady 120gr SST- 1612 ft/lbs

300 BLK factory ammo 16" barrel

Remington 115gr fmj- 1344 ft/lbs
Remington 125gr otm- 1360 ft/lbs
PNW Arms 147gr fmj- 1306 ft/lbs
PNW ARMS 125gr NBT- 1343 ft/lbs
Barnes vor-tx 110gr TTSX- 1349 ft/lbs
Corbon t-dpx 110gr ttsx- 1407 ft/lbs
Corbon hunter 125gr NBT- 1405 ft/lbs

Is that a big enough sample size? I could go on to list all available factory ammo for both, but the trend will not change so why bother?

Also notice I excluded all tactical loadings from SSA and the hot ammo from Wilson Combat. I kept the comparison at known SAAMI spec ammo. No bait and switch...just the raw numbers.


Instead of trying to belittle me with insults, you could have simply stated....I pulled that comment about "imparting more energy on target" out of my ass!

I will go crawl back under a rock now...and let the "guru's" explain why I am "stupid" "a fan boy" or what ever.:suicide:

How much energy a bullet carries on it's way to the target is not the same thing as it's terminal ballistics, nor is it a good indicator as to how well it imparts that energy once it reaches the target