View Full Version : Todd Jarrett torturing a Para 1911 (1K rounds in 10min)
Robb Jensen
01-18-08, 05:11
Todds record! (http://www.downrange.tv/show1/index.htm?bcpid=1370863253&bclid=1375772061&bctid=1375780229)
Be sure to watch the 1 on 1 w/Todd too. Very good information there.
I have a dial-up connection, so video is tough for me to watch online.
Could you summarize what happens in the torture test? Does the gun go 1000 rounds without malfunctiong?
That is the claim.
The video is edited, so it's impossible to say for sure. Also, at least once during the test, he fires two rounds from a magazine and then tosses it aside when the slide locks back. Could have been an underloaded mag, could have been his finger bumping the release, could have been a stoppage. At least on my screen, it's impossible to see if there were rounds in the mag when he tosses it aside.
It is a great video.
It looks to me that it made it through the 1000 without failure.
But it is slightly edited so who knows.
Cool to watch just the same
That is the claim.
The video is edited, so it's impossible to say for sure. Also, at least once during the test, he fires two rounds from a magazine and then tosses it aside when the slide locks back. Could have been an underloaded mag, could have been his finger bumping the release, could have been a stoppage. At least on my screen, it's impossible to see if there were rounds in the mag when he tosses it aside.
I just got done watching the video. It is definitely edited but the only time he fired 2 rounds and stopped, he commented that was it (i.e. the last 2 rounds of the 1000).
On another note, with all the discussion about the reliability of the 1911 and the belief that many have regarding the need to have hundreds of dollars spent to upgrade a 1911 to a reliable carry/self defense weapon, that Para seemed to perform pretty well. Firing 1k rnds in 10 min 44 sec, assuming no failure (which I would say is somewhat implied in the video) that would make that a reliable 1911 out of the box.
I would love to hear what others here think.
I just got done watching the video. It is definitely edited but the only time he fired 2 rounds and stopped, he commented that was it (i.e. the last 2 rounds of the 1000).
6:05 seconds into the video. He fires two rounds from the gun, then ejects the mag while saying "somebody short-changed me two bullets."
As I said, there could have been any number of causes but I knew I wasn't imagining it. :cool:
If he fired a total of 1,000 rounds what would it matter? there could have been two rounds in every mag as long as the total was 1,000.
I'd like to see Todd repeat the 1K test with a bone stock Para sourced from a local dealer.
If he fired a total of 1,000 rounds what would it matter? there could have been two rounds in every mag as long as the total was 1,000.
It's possible that the 2rds were fired and then a "stoppage" of an unknown nature occured. However, we can not see if the mag still had rounds in it to know for sure.
The 1000rds fired is one metric.
If you fire 1000rds and every 10th one needs to have a tap-rack-bang done....it's not a reliable firearm...right?
To be clear, I have no reason to disbelieve the 1,000rds without a stoppage.
Robb Jensen
01-18-08, 22:00
When I'm a GM I'll then judge Todd Jarrett. GMs are like E.F. Hutton to me.
crowkiller
01-19-08, 08:09
Todd Jarrett is not a human he is a MACHINE
I liked the part where he is blasting away hootin and a hollerin "hot gun".
I like where he was holding the pistol in his right hand and working the trigger with his left. The whole time hollerin about the trigger even being hot.
That's what I call a "break in period"!
-RD62
6:05 seconds into the video. He fires two rounds from the gun, then ejects the mag while saying "somebody short-changed me two bullets."
As I said, there could have been any number of causes but I knew I wasn't imagining it. :cool:
Yep. It fires 2 rounds and the slide locks back. He then ejects the mag. Either it was not fully loaded, or the slide locked back prematurely. At the time, he was "bump firing" it with his left hand while holding in the right, so it's possible he could have bumped the slide release with his left hand, causing the slide to lock back. Either way, it wasn't a jam, and he didn't have to clear it, just inserted a new mag and kept going.
Pretty cool video.
David Thomas
01-19-08, 12:07
I liked the part where he is blasting away hootin and a hollerin "hot gun".
He is animated.
Yelling to himself: "whew! Come on, Todd. Get-r-done! whew! Come one boy" at 6:13
Thanks for posting a link to the video, GotM4.
the1911fan
01-19-08, 19:13
That gun is being given away on the website..put in an entry and maybe one of us here wins and we'll be able to test it ourselves.
Derek_Connor
01-19-08, 19:27
I'd like to see Todd repeat the 1K test with a bone stock Para sourced from a local dealer.
I would also.......
That gun is being given away on the website..put in an entry and maybe one of us here wins and we'll be able to test it ourselves.
Where?
I just went to the Para-Ordnance web site and couldn't find it.
Robb Jensen
01-20-08, 08:32
Where?
I just went to the Para-Ordnance web site and couldn't find it.
The Para giveaway is here (http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1370863253/bclid1379594683/bctid1376843006).
If I win it and anyone wants to donate 1000 rounds of .45ACP, I'll try and break the record! ;)
themadhatter
01-20-08, 10:41
The Para giveaway is here (http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1370863253/bclid1379594683/bctid1376843006).
If I win it and anyone wants to donate 1000 rounds of .45ACP, I'll try and break the record! ;)http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/themadhatter-1/untitled.jpg
When I'm a GM I'll then judge Todd Jarrett. GMs are like E.F. Hutton to me.
Agreed on listening to him.
I RO-ed him a number of years ago at the S&W Invitational. Talk about a machine! The ground was damp and slick yet I had all I could do to just keep up with him as he RAN the course. Of course he shot it clean too!
On top o f that he is one hell of a nice guy.
Whats the deal with the "host" of the show? He's rather flamboyant? Odd for a gun related show.
That's Michael Bane for you.
6:05 seconds into the video. He fires two rounds from the gun, then ejects the mag while saying "somebody short-changed me two bullets."
As I said, there could have been any number of causes but I knew I wasn't imagining it. :cool:
Yep....I totally missed that
How pissed would the 1911 lovers be when that "record" gets broken with a glock??
That indeed is a true torture test for that or any firearm. But I don't believe it to be so far out there that most of the top quality pistols can't do it. Yes even right out of the box. Sig, beretta, H&K to name a few.
Some of you are friggan internet skeptics. You question the evidence even though it's right in front of you.
You get on your knees and sing him praises for being a great guy then question his integrity that the two round mag wasn't just loaded short and may have been a stoppage.
If he is that wonderful then it was how he said it was. Loaded with just two rounds in that mag.
Man, all the shit I've gotten over the years from tacticool shooters for using the slide release......
:p
.
Some of you are friggan internet skeptics. You question the evidence even though it's right in front of you.
You get on your knees and sing him praises for being a great guy then question his integrity that the two round mag wasn't just loaded short and may have been a stoppage.
If he is that wonderful then it was how he said it was. Loaded with just two rounds in that mag.
that's what I'm saying who cares how many rounds in the mag if he fires a total of 1000
Man, all the shit I've gotten over the years from tacticool shooters for using the slide release......(Slide STOP)
:p
It's the technique of the unwashed.
But that said, I wouldn't want to be grabbing the slide of a pistol that hot either, Cleatus.
Would of been more impressive if he did it with an HK P7
"hot gun"
Man, all the shit I've gotten over the years from tacticool shooters for using the slide release......
Watch the episode of "Weaponology" on the military channel about the green berets and see who else uses his slide RELEASE to release the slide after a reload.
Watch the episode of "Weaponology" on the military channel about the green berets and see who else uses his slide RELEASE to release the slide after a reload.
:rolleyes:
1. I don't have the Military Channel, and don't watch much TV anyway.
2. The post was made in jest.
Jesus, some folks take their shit way too seriously.
:rolleyes:
1. I don't have the Military Channel, and don't watch much TV anyway.
2. The post was made in jest.
Jesus, some folks take their shit way too seriously.
Whoa Trigger. I think Rhino was joking around a little too. The guy he is speaking of is Larry Vickers. He uses the slide release to release the slide during reloads. And he looked pretty 'washed' to me.
Whoa Trigger. I think Rhino was joking around a little too. The guy he is speaking of is Larry Vickers. He uses the slide release to release the slide during reloads. And he looked pretty 'washed' to me.
Oh, I see. Boy, I feel like a dumbass. This is the first time I've ever felt stupid for NOT watching television.
Sorry rhino. My apologies.
Heh heh heh. :D
No worries on this end.
SIMPLYDYNAMIC
01-26-08, 00:10
Whoa Trigger. The guy he is speaking of is Larry Vickers. He uses the slide release to release the slide during reloads.
Goes with my saying of:
"Dont just be an operator to your pistol, be its master"
Or my saying of: don't do something just because someone told you it's the "tactical" way. OK, it's not really a saying. But it should be.
Once you understand how "rack the slide" became a popular technique, you're a lot more likely to use that slide lock/release lever. :cool:
SIMPLYDYNAMIC
01-26-08, 03:18
Or my saying of: don't do something just because someone told you it's the "tactical" way. OK, it's not really a saying. But it should be.
Once you understand how "rack the slide" became a popular technique, you're a lot more likely to use that slide lock/release lever. :cool:
Bingo! was his name-O
Once you understand how "rack the slide" became a popular technique, you're a lot more likely to use that slide lock/release lever. :cool:
Now you must share, Mr. Green! I do not know how or why it became popular beyond the fact that "rack the slide" works for pretty much every self-loading pistola (especially those that do not have external slide releases).
Watching an accomplished pistol shooter use the slide release shows that it is in fact a much faster way. The other advantage I noted when watching LAV do his reloads was that he maintained a full firing grip on the gun, no canting to get his thumb up to the release.
Since I'm a lefty, I use the slingshot technique because I usually can't get to the slide release. But on guns with slide mounted safeties/decockers like the M9 you can accidently drop the safety. Nothing worse than bringing the gun up after a reload and have the safety on. But watching guys like LAV do a reload, I almost think they could do it hanging upside down in the water blindfolded.
Trying to get back on topic: Did it seem like Todd was fumbling his reloads a bit? I guess that's what you get when you train so much to pull from the belt and stuff a mag into a funneled magwell. All in all, that's a pretty impressive feat. But jeez man, buy some gloves.
rhino -- You have hit on the one and only legitimate reason I see for teaching the slide rack. Personally, I don't think that benefit is worth the costs, but if someone says "I need to be ready to fight with anything I pick up when the zombies attack" I'm not going to argue with him.
(in addition to my oft-repeated explanation that I've never been in a gunfight, been a cop, or been in the military I should probably also expressly state that I have never shot a zombie)
So, whence the "racking is more reliable!" silliness?
Glock.
As many people know, while the tenifer finish of a Glock is diamond hard, the underlying steel is often sub-par. So, once the finish (not the black coloring, but the clear tenifer layer) finally wears away, the bare metal beneath is easily deformed. It may stand up well to being shot by a bullet, but constant wear is like a river running over rock ... eventually, the rock gives.
During the earliest testing of what would become the G17, it was quickly realized that repeated pressing down of the slide release lever would eventually wear away the tenifer, wear a groove in the slide, and the gun would stop locking back on an empty chamber. Since most militaries consider failure to lock back a malfunction when they test handguns, this was unacceptable.
The result was not to improve the design (which, of course, was "perfect"). Instead, much like H&K did when the MP5 first came out, Glock took the approach that everyone should simply re-learn the "right" way to do things. Thus, without any science or study behind it, the marketing people at Glock decided that it was more tactical to rack the slide. The slide catch lever was shrunk down to make it nearly useless and Glock began a propaganda campaign.
It is a testament to the wonderful flavor & bouquet of Glock-brand kool-aid that the "rack the slide" technique took on such predominance so quickly among the less well informed. Anything that causes people to turn away from the writings of Pope Jeff (Cooper) is powerful voodoo, especially back then.
Of course, Glock couldn't say "it's bad for our perfect gun," so instead someone started tossing out the concept of fine motor skills versus gross motor skills. The problem, of course, is that the descriptions as used for this particular issue are incorrect.
In basic terms, a gross motor skill is one that uses only the large major muscles of your body, like walking or swinging your arms. A fine motor skill is anything that requires the smaller muscles ... basically anything that requires fingers is a fine motor skill. The terms, by the way, come from the child development/psychology field and not harder medical science. They're rough concepts never meant to be used the way it's come to in the gun world.
Furthermore, even setting aside labels, it's easier to hit the slide release lever than rack the slide under stress. It's been proven in at least one study, and it just makes sense if you think about it. Hitting the slide release requires a rather "gross" uni-directional movement with no need for finesse. Any part of your hand or fingers can do it, and it's just a simple slap. Racking the slide, however, requires you to grip the slide in a particular place in a particular way, provide momentum in a particular direction for a specific distance, and then release your grip at the right time or else risk inducing a stoppage.
Put another way, hitting the slide release lever is no harder than hitting the mag release lever. If you can do one without worrying you'll die at the hands of the Mongol hordes, you can do the other.
Finally, the last argument often used in favor of "rack the slide" is commonality of training ... "I load my gun, reload my gun, and clear malfunctions the same way every time!" But that, too, won't hold water. If nothing else, using the slide release means you have commonality of training between two- and one-handed techniques. This is especially true on modern designs such as the P2000/P30 and M&P with ambidextrous slide release levers. So when my brain thinks "drop the slide" it only has one process it needs to remember. There is also a good bit of evidence that the whole "prune your decision tree" concept is becoming overblown.
It's worth noting that even Glock ended up making improvements to its design and offers an "extended" slide release as standard equipment on many models, especially those going to government contracts.
Nothing here means that racking the slide is bad or that racking the slide in a fight equals instant death. If that's your habit and you're comfortable with it, it's probably not worth frakking with unless you want to get into competition (where the speed of a proper slide release reload makes a big difference). I won't beat up a student if he's a racker, though I'm always willing to explain why I use the slide release instead.
Some people also find racking easier than using the slide release when they're wearing gloves, though I've not found this to be true personally.
Oh, man. Reading that got me all emotional. I'm misty-eyed, even.
That is perhaps the best statement of slide release vs. rack the slide I've ever read.
Bravo.
The Dumb Gun Collector
01-26-08, 20:12
That was an interesting read. I always just use the cocking lever!:D
RadioActivity
02-01-08, 09:45
Man, all the shit I've gotten over the years from tacticool shooters for using the slide release......
Man, thanks for the good laugh and comic relief. Nothing against what your saying, it was just funny.
Now, as for the video...
In my opinion its silly dramatics. Hell I like Todd Jarrett hes informative and seems like a nice enough guy, but bump firing a "box stock" 1911 for 1k rounds is hardly a torture test. I bet any glock would do it, I don't say that because I partake of the glock cool aid, but because 1k rounds in any time frame is not really a torture test. Maybe it was a test of Todd Jarrett's hand's heat tolerance, but not really a great test of the gun.
Let me put it this way. Is anyone impressed? Anyone going to run out and buy a Para now? I have a para here at home, and while not a bad gun, and their customer service is excellent and extremely friendly...Fit and finish leave a bit to be desired.
Oh, and one last bit of crabbyness from me:
Please nobody attempt to take him up on his challenge. Ammo prices are expensive enough without a bunch of people trying to drop 1k rounds in >10 mins :rolleyes:
I will tell you what though, I was tickled pink to see him look a little more human reloading a handgun. Not so silky smooth and robotic without a magwell hmm? :D
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